0:00:06 > 0:00:13Tonight, we are in Islington, and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:16 > 0:00:18And with us tonight, the new Housing Minister,
0:00:18 > 0:00:21appointed this week, passionate Brexiteer, Dominic Raab.
0:00:21 > 0:00:25Labour's Shadow Secretary for Women and Equalities, Dawn Butler.
0:00:25 > 0:00:29The businesswoman who took the government to the Supreme Court
0:00:29 > 0:00:33to get Parliament to vote on Article 50 and won, Gina Miller.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36Stand-up comic, radio presenter and writer Nish Kumar.
0:00:36 > 0:00:40And scourge of so-called political correctness,
0:00:40 > 0:00:42friend of Donald Trump, journalist and broadcaster
0:00:42 > 0:00:49Piers Morgan.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06Just before we take the first question, you can, of course,
0:01:06 > 0:01:08as always, argue from home about the issues that
0:01:08 > 0:01:09are raised here.
0:01:09 > 0:01:11No longer, I am told, on text.
0:01:11 > 0:01:15But hashtag BBCQT on Twitter, Facebook and on Instagram.
0:01:15 > 0:01:19Our first question is from Kerry Buckingham, please.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22When are ridiculous suggestions of a second EU vote going to stop?
0:01:22 > 0:01:25Let's give the voters who spoke first time what they voted for,
0:01:25 > 0:01:27and let's just hurry up and leave.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30APPLAUSE
0:01:34 > 0:01:38Well, this must be in the light of what Nigel Farage has said today
0:01:38 > 0:01:41about how he was coming around to the idea, that is what you are
0:01:41 > 0:01:43on about, that there might be a second referendum.
0:01:43 > 0:01:46Gina Miller, you've got Nigel Farage going for a second referendum.
0:01:46 > 0:01:47Are you in favour?
0:01:47 > 0:01:49I don't think it's a second referendum.
0:01:49 > 0:01:51It's a vote on the deal, whatever that is.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54But I want to say that none of this is helpful to anybody,
0:01:54 > 0:01:56this whole "Leave, Remain, you're right, we're wrong".
0:01:56 > 0:01:59We've actually got six months, from April to October,
0:01:59 > 0:02:03for this government to show some competence, to go out there and get
0:02:03 > 0:02:06the best possible deal they can.
0:02:06 > 0:02:09And then at that point, I think the people should have a say
0:02:09 > 0:02:12on whatever that deal and the other options are.
0:02:12 > 0:02:15Because I've invested a lot of time, energy, my safety to give
0:02:15 > 0:02:18Parliament a voice.
0:02:18 > 0:02:22And it was a weak, dishonest one, in my view.
0:02:22 > 0:02:23And so I don't trust Parliament any more.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26I think it's got to be the people's vote, and a people's vote
0:02:26 > 0:02:29on the options at the end of September, October this year.
0:02:29 > 0:02:32A people's vote, not a parliament vote?
0:02:32 > 0:02:37Yes.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41APPLAUSE
0:02:41 > 0:02:44OK, so Dominic Raab, what do you make of Farage saying
0:02:44 > 0:02:46"Maybe I'm reaching the point of thinking we should
0:02:46 > 0:02:47have a second referendum"?
0:02:47 > 0:02:48Are you beginning to think that, too?
0:02:48 > 0:02:49No.
0:02:49 > 0:02:53I think it's interesting, though, that on the two fringes,
0:02:53 > 0:02:55whether it's the Lib Dems who are in favour of a second
0:02:55 > 0:02:57referendum, or Ukip, neither of those were originally.
0:02:57 > 0:02:59I mean, Vince Cable, now the leader of the Lib Dems,
0:02:59 > 0:03:02in 2016 at their conference said he thought it was wrong in principle,
0:03:02 > 0:03:04counter-productive in practice.
0:03:04 > 0:03:06NIgel Farage wasn't in favour of an original referendum.
0:03:06 > 0:03:09He said vote for Ukip, we'll just take you straight out.
0:03:09 > 0:03:13So I don't think what they are doing is a matter of democratic principle.
0:03:13 > 0:03:15It's raw political expedience.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18Now, from my point of view, not only is it wrong in principle -
0:03:18 > 0:03:21we have the vote, let's get on and deliver a successful Brexit -
0:03:21 > 0:03:24but actually if we did have a second referendum, the message
0:03:24 > 0:03:27we would send to the EU at this crucial time in negotiations is that
0:03:27 > 0:03:31if they offer us the worst terms, actually we may come crawling back.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34I think what we should do right now is show some political ambition,
0:03:34 > 0:03:40should have some economic self confidence, go into 2018
0:03:40 > 0:03:43proving the doubters wrong.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46We need to get the best deal for the whole of this country...
0:03:46 > 0:03:48Well, why isn't the government doing that?
0:03:48 > 0:03:49Well, you keep...
0:03:49 > 0:03:51You're not negotiating anything.
0:03:51 > 0:03:53The incompetence has been extraordinary.
0:03:53 > 0:03:55Really?
0:03:55 > 0:04:00APPLAUSE
0:04:00 > 0:04:02All right.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04You said Parliament should have its say.
0:04:04 > 0:04:05We passed the Article 50 legislation.
0:04:05 > 0:04:06Absolutely.
0:04:06 > 0:04:09We've passed through the Commons stage the EU Withdrawal bill.
0:04:09 > 0:04:10We won 42 out of 43 votes.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12Now you're shifting the goalposts yet again.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14You said we haven't made any negotiations.
0:04:14 > 0:04:15I haven't shifted any goalposts.
0:04:15 > 0:04:16Hold on, hold on.
0:04:16 > 0:04:17We got the first phase agreement.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20We dealt with that crucial issue of EU nationals, UK expats.
0:04:20 > 0:04:21We've moved on to trade talks.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24Stop shifting the Democratic goalposts.
0:04:24 > 0:04:26Let me just ask you a question.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29You say you're against the second referendum.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31If it had gone the way, you said...
0:04:31 > 0:04:32No, I didn't.
0:04:32 > 0:04:33Well, let me finish.
0:04:33 > 0:04:34He knows what's coming.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37I know what's coming.
0:04:37 > 0:04:39Well I'll read you what's coming.
0:04:39 > 0:04:42"If the verdict is to stay in the EU", you said,
0:04:42 > 0:04:45"and it's close, I think those that don't want to revisit it
0:04:45 > 0:04:47"should pause for a few years and then, at 2020,
0:04:47 > 0:04:50"have a second vote".
0:04:50 > 0:04:51No.
0:04:51 > 0:04:52What I said...
0:04:52 > 0:04:53That's wrong.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56Well, it's from the House magazine, the 9th of June 2016.
0:04:56 > 0:05:01I'll tell you exactly what I said.
0:05:01 > 0:05:01Did you sue the House magazine?
0:05:01 > 0:05:04No, I didn't, but I did correct it at the time and I'll
0:05:04 > 0:05:06correct you as well, David.
0:05:06 > 0:05:09What I said was, when asked whether this would put to bed
0:05:09 > 0:05:11the EU issue forever, I said you'll never put
0:05:11 > 0:05:13down that issue forever, not least because in legislation
0:05:13 > 0:05:16there is an EU lock which would enable us to have a second
0:05:16 > 0:05:18referendum and it would obviously come up in a future
0:05:18 > 0:05:20leadership contest.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23But what I did say is actually we should hold the EU to its word
0:05:23 > 0:05:26and give them a chance to deliver the deal, and then we should judge
0:05:26 > 0:05:29it according to whether it's delivered on the deal.
0:05:29 > 0:05:30And I very clearly said...
0:05:30 > 0:05:31"Revisit".
0:05:31 > 0:05:33Did you use the word "revisit"?
0:05:33 > 0:05:34I was asked...
0:05:34 > 0:05:37Did you use the word "revisit"?
0:05:37 > 0:05:40I was asked whether under any circumstances we would revisit
0:05:40 > 0:05:42and I said, "Of course, you're not going to stop
0:05:42 > 0:05:43"people debating the EU".
0:05:43 > 0:05:45So why shouldn't she revisit, in that case?
0:05:45 > 0:05:48Well, she can, and she can make the case for it.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50But let's leave the EU first, finish these negotiations,
0:05:50 > 0:05:51get a better deal for the country...
0:05:51 > 0:05:55I think Dominic is frightened of the will of the people on that vote.
0:05:55 > 0:05:56APPLAUSE
0:05:56 > 0:05:57I'll come back to you.
0:05:57 > 0:05:59Dawn Butler.
0:05:59 > 0:06:03It was painful, the first phase of the negotiations,
0:06:03 > 0:06:05absolutely painful.
0:06:05 > 0:06:07The Prime Minister struggled to get an agreement.
0:06:07 > 0:06:10And the thing is this, we have to look after jobs,
0:06:10 > 0:06:12trade and investment.
0:06:12 > 0:06:14And all those things have to be considered before
0:06:14 > 0:06:18we could even leave the EU.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20So do I agree on a second referendum?
0:06:20 > 0:06:22I think that's Nigel Farage looking for attention.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25And I don't think we should give him any more attention
0:06:25 > 0:06:27than he already gets, because I think he gets enough.
0:06:27 > 0:06:30I think that the government has fought every single step
0:06:30 > 0:06:32of the way when we say we want to have a meaningful
0:06:32 > 0:06:34vote in Parliament.
0:06:34 > 0:06:37We put forward an Opposition Day debate and Parliament made it clear
0:06:37 > 0:06:40that we wanted to have a meaningful vote on the deal.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43And then we had to have another vote that the government
0:06:43 > 0:06:47was trying to derail.
0:06:47 > 0:06:49And then we beat the government.
0:06:49 > 0:06:50Come on!
0:06:50 > 0:06:53We beat the government on that.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56And now that we will have a meaningful vote on the deal,
0:06:56 > 0:06:58and I think that's important.
0:06:58 > 0:07:01What do you make of 78% of Labour voters saying there should be
0:07:01 > 0:07:02a referendum on the deal?
0:07:02 > 0:07:05There's a mixture of views all around, which is fine.
0:07:05 > 0:07:0678% of Labour voters.
0:07:06 > 0:07:07That's fine.
0:07:07 > 0:07:08Your own constituency are all pro-Remain.
0:07:08 > 0:07:12That's fine.
0:07:12 > 0:07:13Everybody can have a view.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15I mean, I voted to remain.
0:07:15 > 0:07:17I was really disappointed with the result, but the end
0:07:17 > 0:07:18result is the result.
0:07:18 > 0:07:21We have to wait while we go through this painful process
0:07:21 > 0:07:23of the second phase, and then we'll see
0:07:23 > 0:07:24what the end deal is.
0:07:24 > 0:07:28And then we have a vote in Parliament.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30I'll come to members of the audience in a moment.
0:07:30 > 0:07:31Nish Kumar.
0:07:31 > 0:07:34First of all, of course Nigel Farage wants a second referendum
0:07:34 > 0:07:37because at the moment I literally don't know how he's filling his
0:07:37 > 0:07:39days, between sort of campaigning for alleged sex predators in Alabama
0:07:39 > 0:07:41and accepting far right invitations in Germany,
0:07:41 > 0:07:43I really don't know.
0:07:43 > 0:07:46I mean he maybe just needs to take up a hobby.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49But my concern is, when we talk about the best possible deal
0:07:49 > 0:07:52and we talk about the fact that the country has spoken,
0:07:52 > 0:07:54I don't really understand what either of those two
0:07:54 > 0:07:55things looks like.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57Because what we said in the referendum is that we wanted
0:07:57 > 0:08:00to leave, but did that mean remain part of the single market?
0:08:00 > 0:08:03If so, if we're leaving the single market, how does that
0:08:03 > 0:08:04translate in Ireland?
0:08:04 > 0:08:07How does that work with the hard or soft border?
0:08:07 > 0:08:11There's a lot of questions that need to be answered and it's a much more,
0:08:11 > 0:08:13complication question than we were originally asked.
0:08:13 > 0:08:15So I don't really see the problem with having been
0:08:15 > 0:08:17asked the first time.
0:08:17 > 0:08:19Why can't we be asked a second time once we actually
0:08:19 > 0:08:21know what we're being asked to do?
0:08:21 > 0:08:22OK.
0:08:22 > 0:08:26Man in the fourth row.
0:08:26 > 0:08:28Yes.
0:08:28 > 0:08:31If we actually go back to the vote in 2016 we were told exactly
0:08:31 > 0:08:33what we were being asked to do.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36A leaflet was sent out by the British government to every
0:08:36 > 0:08:38household in the country that said, "This is your decision,
0:08:38 > 0:08:40"the government will implement what you decide".
0:08:40 > 0:08:43And it was clearly stated that leaving the European Union meant
0:08:43 > 0:08:44leaving the single market.
0:08:44 > 0:08:46David Cameron said that, George Osborne said that,
0:08:46 > 0:08:48the whole Remain campaign said that.
0:08:48 > 0:08:50So it's about time that the Remainers at the moment stop
0:08:50 > 0:08:53with these delaying tactics, stop asking for more and more votes
0:08:53 > 0:08:58until you get the result you wanted and just accept the biggest
0:08:58 > 0:09:01political turnout in British voter history, accepted the result and got
0:09:01 > 0:09:05on with what the people said.
0:09:05 > 0:09:06I'm really sorry.
0:09:06 > 0:09:07I have to ask again.
0:09:07 > 0:09:09I hate to keep bringing it back to this one
0:09:09 > 0:09:10incredibly important issue.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13How does that translate with the soft or hard border
0:09:13 > 0:09:16between northern and southern Ireland?
0:09:16 > 0:09:19How does us leaving the single market work when Ireland is an EU
0:09:19 > 0:09:21member state that is part of the single market
0:09:21 > 0:09:22and shares a border?
0:09:22 > 0:09:25Is this a sort of covert ploy by Leave voters to reunite Ireland?
0:09:25 > 0:09:28Because if it is, that is a real surprise to everyone.
0:09:28 > 0:09:30I'm actually part Irish and I support a united Ireland,
0:09:30 > 0:09:33so I'd be quite happy with that.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35But I'm pretty sure that wasn't the point of the referendum
0:09:35 > 0:09:38or the Conservative Party.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40The woman in the third row from the back.
0:09:40 > 0:09:42I just want to go back to the current government
0:09:42 > 0:09:43and Dominic, your statement.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46How do you expect us to trust your party when just then
0:09:46 > 0:09:49a quote that came out of your mouth you will not be held
0:09:49 > 0:09:50accountable for?
0:09:50 > 0:09:51That's the point.
0:09:51 > 0:09:55A quote that came out of your mouth and then there was still avoidance.
0:09:55 > 0:09:56Can answer your question?
0:09:56 > 0:09:57I want to.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59That was taken in the referendum.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01There was a selective quote taken by the House magazine.
0:10:01 > 0:10:05I was asked about it at the time and I came straight out and said
0:10:05 > 0:10:08all I'm saying is that you can't say permanently debate will be
0:10:08 > 0:10:09locked down forever.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11But what we need to do is implement the referendum and that
0:10:11 > 0:10:12means leaving the EU.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15If people wanted to make the argument that is being made
0:10:15 > 0:10:17for a second referendum, when we had the original
0:10:17 > 0:10:20legislation back in 2015 and decided on it, that argument should
0:10:20 > 0:10:22have been made then.
0:10:22 > 0:10:23No one argued then that we should have a referendum
0:10:23 > 0:10:25on the outcome of the deal.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28It is just shifting the Democratic goalposts and that's not on.
0:10:28 > 0:10:33Piers Morgan.
0:10:33 > 0:10:36We are in Islington here, which is the heart of
0:10:36 > 0:10:37Arsenal Football Club.
0:10:37 > 0:10:39My team.
0:10:39 > 0:10:42And we recently got dumped out of the FA Cup in the third
0:10:42 > 0:10:46round for the first time in over 20 years.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48And I would like to play that game again.
0:10:48 > 0:10:51I don't like the result.
0:10:51 > 0:10:53I would like us to have won and I would like to
0:10:53 > 0:10:55have a rematch next Sunday.
0:10:55 > 0:10:58Yeah, I'd like to have a rematch because...
0:10:58 > 0:11:00But, Piers, in 2014, you said, in an interview with Giselle,
0:11:00 > 0:11:03that it was too complicated and that none of us knew
0:11:03 > 0:11:06what it was all about.
0:11:06 > 0:11:07Everyone's had their say.
0:11:07 > 0:11:09If I could just finish my point.
0:11:09 > 0:11:12Can we leave the Arsenal analogy now for the rest of the country
0:11:12 > 0:11:14who may not be so involved?
0:11:14 > 0:11:16The analogy is bleedingly obvious, which is this, you don't get
0:11:16 > 0:11:19to replay a football match and if you get the result
0:11:19 > 0:11:21you don't like.
0:11:21 > 0:11:24And you don't get to replay a referendum when you don't get
0:11:24 > 0:11:25the result you like.
0:11:25 > 0:11:26APPLAUSE
0:11:26 > 0:11:31Now, I speak as somebody who voted Remain.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33I wasn't entirely sure, and I'll tell you why.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36When I was editor of the Daily Mirror for ten years,
0:11:36 > 0:11:38at the start of the 2000s, we had a big question
0:11:38 > 0:11:41about whether to enter the euro, the single currency.
0:11:41 > 0:11:43And I had Tony Blair and Gordon Brown and Peter Mandelson,
0:11:43 > 0:11:46Alastair Campbell, a lot of business people who you are now seeing
0:11:46 > 0:11:48popping up telling us about the horrors of leaving Europe,
0:11:48 > 0:11:51all of them were telling me if we did not enter
0:11:51 > 0:11:53the single currency, the euro, this country
0:11:53 > 0:11:57was dead, financially dead.
0:11:57 > 0:12:01Well, guess what, we didn't.
0:12:01 > 0:12:02Gordon Brown stopped that.
0:12:02 > 0:12:03Let me finish.
0:12:03 > 0:12:07Hashtag just saying!
0:12:07 > 0:12:10I was there at the time, talking to them on a daily basis.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12I know what they were all saying at the time.
0:12:12 > 0:12:14I know how it then played out.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16The point is that we didn't enter the euro, actually
0:12:16 > 0:12:20it was the best thing we ever did, to not enter the euro.
0:12:20 > 0:12:23So I take a lot of what these experts say with a pinch of salt.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26But on the point of the question, no, we can't
0:12:26 > 0:12:27have another referendum.
0:12:27 > 0:12:30It doesn't matter who is asking for it, whether it is Gina,
0:12:30 > 0:12:31whether it is Nigel Farage.
0:12:31 > 0:12:32I'm not asking for a referendum.
0:12:32 > 0:12:33The people had their say.
0:12:33 > 0:12:37And the man made a very good point there, the gentleman there,
0:12:37 > 0:12:39about what we were told this vote was about.
0:12:39 > 0:12:41June 12, 2016, David Cameron on Andrew Marr's
0:12:41 > 0:12:45programme on the BBC.
0:12:45 > 0:12:48"What the British public will be voting for is to leave the EU
0:12:48 > 0:12:51"and leave the single market".
0:12:51 > 0:12:52No ambiguity.
0:12:52 > 0:12:57So this idea that we were all too stupid, nobody knew...
0:12:57 > 0:13:00They also said there would be £350 million a week for the NHS.
0:13:00 > 0:13:01What happened to that?
0:13:01 > 0:13:04APPLAUSE
0:13:04 > 0:13:05Let me go to the woman over there.
0:13:05 > 0:13:08We need to bring more members of the audience in.
0:13:08 > 0:13:09The woman on the very left.
0:13:09 > 0:13:10Yes, you.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13Dominic Raab and many others keep talking about the best deal
0:13:13 > 0:13:19for Britain, and that we will now proceed to get the best deal.
0:13:19 > 0:13:22If you're so confident that this is going to be the best deal, why
0:13:22 > 0:13:23not put it to another referendum?
0:13:23 > 0:13:26Because I think fundamentally if we told the EU now that
0:13:26 > 0:13:32if they offered us the worst deal we might come back in,
0:13:32 > 0:13:35that would virtually guarantee, as a matter of common sense
0:13:35 > 0:13:39diplomacy that they would.
0:13:39 > 0:13:41So I think that would totally undermine our negotiating position.
0:13:41 > 0:13:44But when I talk about the best deal, I want to give effect
0:13:44 > 0:13:47to the referendum, take back control of our money, our laws
0:13:47 > 0:13:48and our borders.
0:13:48 > 0:13:51But I also want to continue the good things about the EU,
0:13:51 > 0:13:53the co-operation on trade, on security and all
0:13:53 > 0:13:54sorts of other areas.
0:13:54 > 0:13:55My father was Czech.
0:13:55 > 0:13:56We are leaving the EU.
0:13:56 > 0:14:00I will feel no less European on my side of the family after that.
0:14:00 > 0:14:02I just want to get away from the undemocratic club,
0:14:02 > 0:14:05take back control of our own laws, and that we're going to do.
0:14:05 > 0:14:07The man up there.
0:14:07 > 0:14:11You, sir.
0:14:11 > 0:14:13The problem with the referendum is it's too simple a question
0:14:13 > 0:14:14and too complex an issue.
0:14:14 > 0:14:16And how we leave Europe is absolutely crucial.
0:14:16 > 0:14:18I run my own small business.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21If we leave Europe with no trade deal it would be disastrous
0:14:21 > 0:14:23for my business and the people I employ.
0:14:23 > 0:14:25So it's absolutely crucial.
0:14:25 > 0:14:27I don't have a problem with a second referendum.
0:14:27 > 0:14:30I mean, Parliament weren't even going to get a vote
0:14:30 > 0:14:31on it at one stage.
0:14:31 > 0:14:33But there's another way of dealing with this.
0:14:33 > 0:14:35The Labour Party are a shambles on Europe.
0:14:35 > 0:14:38Why don't you have the guts to make the general election a referendum
0:14:38 > 0:14:40on Europe and clarify your stance versus what the Conservatives
0:14:40 > 0:14:43come back with in a deal from leaving Europe?
0:14:43 > 0:14:47Why don't you have the guts to clarify your stance and make
0:14:47 > 0:14:50the next general election about Europe and play out in a full
0:14:50 > 0:14:53general election campaign where everybody can be informed
0:14:53 > 0:15:00about the true issues behind whether to stay or leave Europe?
0:15:00 > 0:15:03We'll put it to Dawn, but what do you have
0:15:03 > 0:15:08the Labour Party campaign say?
0:15:08 > 0:15:11Well, I would have the Labour Party with 78% of their supporters wanting
0:15:11 > 0:15:12to stay within Europe.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15Why don't you come off the fence, believe we should at least stay
0:15:15 > 0:15:18within the single market, and make that the issue you campaign
0:15:18 > 0:15:19in the general election.
0:15:19 > 0:15:20Dawn?
0:15:20 > 0:15:23You raise a couple of issues there in regards to your business,
0:15:23 > 0:15:25and I think that's the reality of the situation, and that's
0:15:25 > 0:15:28what has to be considered in regards to negotiating the deal.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31I mean, I hope there's a general election this year and,
0:15:31 > 0:15:34if there is one, then you will be clear on our manifesto.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37The Labour Party has been very clear in regards to the single market
0:15:37 > 0:15:44and the customs union.
0:15:44 > 0:15:45You haven't been remotely clear about it.
0:15:45 > 0:15:47What is the position of the party?
0:15:47 > 0:15:49On the single market, what we are saying is
0:15:49 > 0:15:53that we are looking at goods, services and immigration.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55Are we staying or are we leaving?
0:15:55 > 0:15:56Are we staying or leaving?
0:15:56 > 0:15:58It has to be negotiated.
0:15:58 > 0:16:02Do we stay in the single market or do we leave?
0:16:02 > 0:16:03Piers, you have already...
0:16:03 > 0:16:05It's a simple question.
0:16:05 > 0:16:07Yeah, it's a simple question, but it's a complex situation,
0:16:07 > 0:16:09as the gentleman said.
0:16:09 > 0:16:11What's the answer?
0:16:11 > 0:16:14Do you want me to speak, Piers, or do you want to keep interrupting?
0:16:14 > 0:16:16Yes or no to these fundamental questions.
0:16:16 > 0:16:20Piers, do you want me to respond, or do you just want to keep it -
0:16:20 > 0:16:23because, if it's your show, carry on.
0:16:23 > 0:16:25I honestly have no idea what Labour's position is.
0:16:25 > 0:16:27You've made the point.
0:16:27 > 0:16:28Dawn.
0:16:28 > 0:16:29You're not allowing me to speak.
0:16:29 > 0:16:32No, but he will now allow you to speak.
0:16:32 > 0:16:34You speak and then we'll go to this gentleman here.
0:16:34 > 0:16:36So, in the customs union, we are saying that,
0:16:36 > 0:16:40at the end of the day, we can be in something that
0:16:40 > 0:16:41will look very similar to the customs union.
0:16:41 > 0:16:43That is what the Labour Party position is.
0:16:43 > 0:16:49But it's all about negotiation.
0:16:49 > 0:16:53On the single market, we want to negotiate access to the single
0:16:53 > 0:17:00market. The best deal for businesses and people and jobs. We need to have
0:17:00 > 0:17:06that negotiated. That is Labour's position. You can't just stay in.
0:17:06 > 0:17:12Stop, stop.I think we'd have to ask ourselves, if we went into Europe,
0:17:12 > 0:17:18what ye are we returning to? They've made it clear that they want to have
0:17:18 > 0:17:22a European army and things that everyone, when we were in the EU, we
0:17:22 > 0:17:27voted against. This is what we would be returning to, fighting the same
0:17:27 > 0:17:30battles over battles over and over again and, no matter how much we
0:17:30 > 0:17:34fight them, the ideas would come back.And you, in the front row for
0:17:34 > 0:17:35the
0:17:35 > 0:17:39Just to go on to what Dominic Raab said earlier, he said that they had
0:17:39 > 0:17:41that they had a really
0:17:41 > 0:17:42successful year where they sorted
0:17:42 > 0:17:45out the rights of EU nationals living inside the UK and the rights
0:17:45 > 0:17:48of EU nationals living here and British nationals living abroad,
0:17:48 > 0:17:52but that's a pretty simple issue.
0:17:52 > 0:17:54That's something which can be sorted out within a couple weeks.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57You say that the rights of the EU nationals here will be protected
0:17:57 > 0:18:01and the rights of British nationals abroad will be protected.
0:18:01 > 0:18:03And then you say, a good tone for negotiations,
0:18:03 > 0:18:04and you can move on.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07But it took the Government a year to sort it out,
0:18:07 > 0:18:09and I think Gina made a very valid point, saying,
0:18:09 > 0:18:12how can we trust the Government to deliver a good deal
0:18:12 > 0:18:15if it took them so long to deliver on something like this?
0:18:15 > 0:18:17Do you want briefly to answer that point.
0:18:17 > 0:18:19It didn't take a full year.
0:18:19 > 0:18:21We started negotiations in April and we got to that
0:18:21 > 0:18:23position in December.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25But it was a much thornier technical issue, because it
0:18:25 > 0:18:27wasn't just the status, it was things like health insurance,
0:18:27 > 0:18:29things like pensions.
0:18:29 > 0:18:33It was tricky, and the reason it took so long, we said,
0:18:33 > 0:18:35the Government said, even before we start
0:18:35 > 0:18:37the formal negotiations, let's resolve this issue,
0:18:37 > 0:18:40because real people's lives are at stake.
0:18:40 > 0:18:42The EU took a rather dogmatic line and said, no,
0:18:42 > 0:18:43we're not going to do that.
0:18:43 > 0:18:47But, in any event, the fact is a lot of people were saying we wouldn't
0:18:47 > 0:18:49get to that first phase deal.
0:18:49 > 0:18:50We did.
0:18:50 > 0:18:52I think there's a much stronger spirit of cooperation.
0:18:52 > 0:18:53Let's look for the win-win deal.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55It's not a zero-sum game.
0:18:55 > 0:18:57A deal that works for Britain, that works for the EU,
0:18:57 > 0:19:00and actually, you know, Dawn has just articulated a position
0:19:00 > 0:19:02that is rather similar to the Government position,
0:19:02 > 0:19:05which is that we want to get the best out of the relationship,
0:19:05 > 0:19:06on trade, on security.
0:19:06 > 0:19:08This is what we said at the beginning.
0:19:08 > 0:19:10We said we needed a transitional deal.
0:19:10 > 0:19:11I didn't interrupt you.
0:19:11 > 0:19:12We said it from the beginning.
0:19:12 > 0:19:15The Tories were saying there would be no transitional deal.
0:19:15 > 0:19:17Now you're saying there will be.
0:19:17 > 0:19:20I didn't interrupt you, Dawn, but the answer to the question that
0:19:20 > 0:19:22Piers and others asked is, of course we have to leave
0:19:22 > 0:19:25the customs union, of course we have to leave the single market.
0:19:25 > 0:19:27Jeremy Corbyn told Labour MPs on Monday night that
0:19:27 > 0:19:30that was the position, whereas Keir Starmer said we should
0:19:30 > 0:19:31leave the position open.
0:19:31 > 0:19:32So it is a total shambles.
0:19:32 > 0:19:34We are in government, we've got to lead.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36There is no real choice here.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39You can't stay in the single market and leave the EU.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41But there are all sorts of other ways, through trade deals,
0:19:41 > 0:19:43through security cooperation, that we can have a strong
0:19:43 > 0:19:51relationship going forward.
0:19:54 > 0:19:57Before we take another question, Hereford is we're going to be next
0:19:57 > 0:19:59Thursday, and Dumfries the week after that.
0:19:59 > 0:20:02On the screen are the details of how to apply, and I'll give
0:20:02 > 0:20:03them in full at the end.
0:20:03 > 0:20:05I'll take a question from Josh Anthony, please.
0:20:05 > 0:20:06Josh Anthony.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09With the resignation of Toby Young, are we giving in to mob rule
0:20:09 > 0:20:10by a snowflake generation?
0:20:10 > 0:20:13Yes, Toby Young's resignation after a very brief, a day or two
0:20:13 > 0:20:14only, I think, in post.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16Piers Morgan.
0:20:16 > 0:20:17Look, he said some distasteful things.
0:20:17 > 0:20:18No one is questioning that.
0:20:18 > 0:20:21They were things he said in the past, and Dawn
0:20:21 > 0:20:25and Angela Rayner, amongst others on the Labour side, led
0:20:25 > 0:20:29a charge to get him sacked.
0:20:29 > 0:20:31And he eventually quit before, I suspect,
0:20:31 > 0:20:32he was about to be sacked.
0:20:32 > 0:20:34So they got their scalp.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37Toby Young is off this little quango that nobody had really heard about
0:20:37 > 0:20:38anyway.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40Nobody had really heard about Toby Young before
0:20:40 > 0:20:41this week, probably.
0:20:41 > 0:20:44And he's now gone.
0:20:44 > 0:20:47What it raises to me is the question of hypocrisy and double
0:20:47 > 0:20:50standards and consistency.
0:20:50 > 0:20:52Because there is a Labour MP called
0:20:52 > 0:20:56Jared O'Mara, who is still a Labour MP.
0:20:56 > 0:20:58He hasn't been sacked.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01He posted far worse stuff.
0:21:01 > 0:21:02He is suspended, I think.
0:21:02 > 0:21:05He's suspended, but he's not sacked.
0:21:05 > 0:21:08He posted far worse stuff and, when it all came out and a lot
0:21:08 > 0:21:11of the stuff was presented to the world, Angela Rayner...
0:21:11 > 0:21:12Hang on.
0:21:12 > 0:21:14Jared's posted worse stuff than Toby Young?
0:21:14 > 0:21:15Yes, absolutely.
0:21:15 > 0:21:17Are you kidding me?!
0:21:17 > 0:21:19You'll get a chance to respond in a moment.
0:21:19 > 0:21:20I'll finish my point.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22You can go and see what Jared O'Mara posted.
0:21:22 > 0:21:24You can make your own mind up.
0:21:24 > 0:21:26Everyone who's seen them will know what I'm talking about.
0:21:26 > 0:21:28Angela Rayner, who led the charge against Toby Young,
0:21:28 > 0:21:32she stood up next to him and said, I stand by this guy,
0:21:32 > 0:21:36this is in the past, he said sorry, we need to move on.
0:21:36 > 0:21:39So he is still a Labour MP.
0:21:39 > 0:21:44So he is not, apparently, as bad as Toby Young.
0:21:44 > 0:21:47Let me come to John McDonnell, number two in the Labour Party.
0:21:47 > 0:21:51He said in 2010, on Any Questions, he wanted to assassinate
0:21:51 > 0:21:53Margaret Thatcher.
0:21:53 > 0:21:57He then repeated this story gleefully at a Labour meeting
0:21:57 > 0:22:00with the same Angela Rayner sitting next to him, who was
0:22:00 > 0:22:04laughing and nodding as he recounted the story.
0:22:04 > 0:22:06Second story involving John McDonnell.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08OK, that's enough, thank you.
0:22:08 > 0:22:10No, Piers, you've made two points.
0:22:10 > 0:22:11Dawn Butler.
0:22:11 > 0:22:12I'll come back to you if necessary.
0:22:12 > 0:22:14Let me finish my point.
0:22:14 > 0:22:15In a sentence, please.
0:22:15 > 0:22:16The finish of the point is this.
0:22:16 > 0:22:24He then also repeated a story about Esther McVey,
0:22:26 > 0:22:28who someone had said should be lynched.
0:22:28 > 0:22:31My point is this, what is actually worse, what Toby Young may have
0:22:31 > 0:22:33said a few years ago, in clumsy, stupid
0:22:33 > 0:22:34and offensive posts
0:22:34 > 0:22:35on Twitter...?
0:22:35 > 0:22:3645,000 tweets, he deleted.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38You'll get a chance to respond in a minute.
0:22:38 > 0:22:39Piers, Piers.
0:22:39 > 0:22:40Piers...
0:22:40 > 0:22:41I do not want a monologue.
0:22:41 > 0:22:42Wait, Dawn.
0:22:42 > 0:22:43My point is simply...
0:22:43 > 0:22:47The question is, are we giving in to mob rule by a snowflake generation?
0:22:47 > 0:22:48Yes or no.
0:22:48 > 0:22:51My point is I think we are, and the mob rule does not apply
0:22:51 > 0:22:54the same standards to people on the Labour side as it applies
0:22:54 > 0:22:56to someone like Toby Young, who coincidentally happens
0:22:56 > 0:22:58to be a Tory.
0:22:58 > 0:22:59OK, Dawn Butler.
0:22:59 > 0:23:03APPLAUSE.
0:23:03 > 0:23:06This is typical.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10The guy deleted 45,000 tweets.
0:23:10 > 0:23:12I don't know how many people are prolific
0:23:12 > 0:23:13tweeters in the audience.
0:23:13 > 0:23:17To have to delete 45,000...
0:23:17 > 0:23:19It's a day's work for me.
0:23:19 > 0:23:21Piers, can you keep quiet while she's speaking, please?
0:23:21 > 0:23:22Thank you.
0:23:22 > 0:23:24She asked a question.
0:23:24 > 0:23:26You've deleted 45,000 tweets?
0:23:26 > 0:23:27You are not in the audience.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29She asked the audience, not you.
0:23:29 > 0:23:30Go on, Dawn.
0:23:30 > 0:23:32Come on, let's stop this nonsense.
0:23:32 > 0:23:33So, the issue is...
0:23:33 > 0:23:35It's not nonsense.
0:23:35 > 0:23:37I swear he thinks this is his show.
0:23:37 > 0:23:38I mean...
0:23:38 > 0:23:39Well, it might be one day.
0:23:39 > 0:23:45LAUGHTER.
0:23:45 > 0:23:53That's unacceptable.
0:24:01 > 0:24:03he deleted 45,000 tweets, and the reason nobody has heard of this new
0:24:03 > 0:24:11government body was because it starts on April this year, so it
0:24:11 > 0:24:14hasn't actually been started. The announcement of Toby Young was
0:24:14 > 0:24:19announced at one minute past midnight, so they were trying to
0:24:19 > 0:24:24sneak this announcement out. Now, there is an issue with suitability.
0:24:24 > 0:24:31There is an issue with process. Was full process carried out when he was
0:24:31 > 0:24:35appointed to this position? Was he suitable for this position or did he
0:24:35 > 0:24:39get the position on merit or because of privilege and being mates with
0:24:39 > 0:24:42certain people? Those are three main issues that have to be addressed. I
0:24:42 > 0:24:46am not in favour of appointing somebody who talks about dressing up
0:24:46 > 0:24:53as a woman and going to gay clubs and molesting lesbians, and writing
0:24:53 > 0:24:55about it. That's an acceptable.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57Or laughing about anal rape
0:24:57 > 0:25:00of women, or talking about eugenics and weeding out disabled people,
0:25:00 > 0:25:01or complaining that schools have
0:25:01 > 0:25:03ramps so that disabled people can get an education.
0:25:03 > 0:25:05That is not suitable criteria for somebody to be appointed
0:25:05 > 0:25:08to a government body.
0:25:08 > 0:25:15APPLAUSE.
0:25:15 > 0:25:17The woman up there.
0:25:17 > 0:25:21I'd just like to point out that a lot of this stuff that Toby Young
0:25:21 > 0:25:26said was directed towards women, and I don't understand why
0:25:26 > 0:25:31as a society, or certain establishments within society,
0:25:31 > 0:25:35continue to give a platform to men who are disrespectful and downright
0:25:35 > 0:25:38awful about women.
0:25:38 > 0:25:43With the Jared O'Mara situation, he was suspended, so that...
0:25:43 > 0:25:44He's not been sacked.
0:25:44 > 0:25:46That's not my point.
0:25:46 > 0:25:48I haven't heard Dawn calling for him to be sacked.
0:25:48 > 0:25:49Can I just finish?
0:25:49 > 0:25:51My point actually is that Toby Young resigned,
0:25:51 > 0:25:54so then took that agency to resign himself.
0:25:54 > 0:25:58Jared O'Mara was suspended by somebody else.
0:25:58 > 0:26:03He still wasn't given the privilege or the opportunity to resign.
0:26:03 > 0:26:05The woman on the gangway.
0:26:05 > 0:26:07I'm a student and, frankly, what Toby Young says
0:26:07 > 0:26:09is just disgusting.
0:26:09 > 0:26:12He talks about social mobility and he talks about how you can
0:26:12 > 0:26:16encourage people on lower incomes by giving them, you know, eugenic
0:26:16 > 0:26:20treatment and allowing them to rise up and improve their intelligence.
0:26:20 > 0:26:24How can a man like that stand up for students' interests?
0:26:24 > 0:26:26It's frankly despicable that he was even put
0:26:26 > 0:26:31forward for this position.
0:26:31 > 0:26:33Dominic Raab.
0:26:33 > 0:26:36Well, I certainly agree that the nature of these comments
0:26:36 > 0:26:39came back to haunt him to such an extent where it became inevitable
0:26:39 > 0:26:42that he would have to resign, and I agree that those in public
0:26:42 > 0:26:44office should be held to higher standards,
0:26:44 > 0:26:47but I want to say this in relation to there being two
0:26:47 > 0:26:49sides to this story.
0:26:49 > 0:26:52This is also a guy who put heart and soul into setting up free
0:26:52 > 0:26:55schools, so kids from disadvantaged backgrounds could have
0:26:55 > 0:27:03a strong education.
0:27:08 > 0:27:11The problem is all the focus comes off that if the story
0:27:11 > 0:27:14is all about your track record of being an edgy commentator
0:27:14 > 0:27:15and taking things too far.
0:27:15 > 0:27:17I just wish Dawn would apply the same standards
0:27:17 > 0:27:19to the Shadow Chancellor, John McDonnell, who talked and joked
0:27:19 > 0:27:22about lynching the bastard, his words, in relation to Esther
0:27:22 > 0:27:23McVey.
0:27:23 > 0:27:25If actually the bar is set here, shouldn't he resign?
0:27:25 > 0:27:26Will you condemn that, Dawn?
0:27:26 > 0:27:29Will you condemn the language John McDonnell used about Esther McVey?
0:27:29 > 0:27:31Just as your colleague, Jess Phillips, one of
0:27:31 > 0:27:34the most formidable Labour equalities campaigners, did.
0:27:34 > 0:27:36Do you agree that it was outrageous?
0:27:36 > 0:27:38I condemn all abuse against women.
0:27:38 > 0:27:40I get a lot of abuse...
0:27:40 > 0:27:41That's a Jeremy Corbyn line.
0:27:41 > 0:27:44I get a lot of abuse myself.
0:27:44 > 0:27:46Now, listen...
0:27:46 > 0:27:48I would stand foursquare with you against that,
0:27:48 > 0:27:49because it's outrageous.
0:27:49 > 0:27:50A lot of abuse.
0:27:50 > 0:27:52I get a lot of abuse myself.
0:27:52 > 0:27:55So I'm against abuse against all women all of the time.
0:27:55 > 0:27:58But let me tell you something, you keep talking about it
0:27:58 > 0:27:59as though it is historic.
0:27:59 > 0:28:02Just over 12 months ago, somebody put on Toby Young's desk
0:28:02 > 0:28:05a sexual health harassment policy.
0:28:05 > 0:28:13Somebody was brave enough to put it on his desk
0:28:13 > 0:28:14and underline bits in red.
0:28:14 > 0:28:16And he responded by hiring a strippergram to go
0:28:16 > 0:28:19to the workplace on the day of Take Your Daughter To Work Day.
0:28:19 > 0:28:21That shows what he's like.
0:28:21 > 0:28:23Nish Kumar.
0:28:23 > 0:28:28I want to get back to the question that you originally posed.
0:28:28 > 0:28:29I'm a stand-up comedian.
0:28:29 > 0:28:33I exercise my free speech regularly, and I've said things that are truly,
0:28:33 > 0:28:36objectively reprehensible, right?
0:28:36 > 0:28:39I've said things about members of the panel.
0:28:39 > 0:28:43I described one member of the panel, I won't tell you who it is,
0:28:43 > 0:28:46as what would happen if someone injected a gammon steak
0:28:46 > 0:28:47with white privilege.
0:28:47 > 0:28:49LAUGHTER.
0:28:49 > 0:28:51APPLAUSE.
0:28:51 > 0:28:54Not wishing to give anything away, if I could go back in time,
0:28:54 > 0:28:59I would high-five myself, because it's a funny line.
0:28:59 > 0:29:01Now, do I consider that an absolute privilege
0:29:01 > 0:29:02which I utilise constantly?
0:29:02 > 0:29:03Absolutely, I do.
0:29:03 > 0:29:06Do I also realise that that free speech that I've exercised may
0:29:06 > 0:29:08preclude me from certain jobs, for example co-hosting
0:29:08 > 0:29:12Good Morning Britain?
0:29:12 > 0:29:13Absolutely.
0:29:13 > 0:29:15There is consequences to the things that you say.
0:29:15 > 0:29:16And it's not...
0:29:16 > 0:29:18You can't castigate a generation as being oversensitive,
0:29:18 > 0:29:23or this terrible term snowflake that's constantly bandied around
0:29:23 > 0:29:24without any real context or meaning.
0:29:24 > 0:29:28You can't castigate a whole generation for taking appropriate
0:29:28 > 0:29:31measures when you look at someone who's going to be involved
0:29:31 > 0:29:32in tertiary education.
0:29:32 > 0:29:34If I wake up tomorrow and suddenly decide that
0:29:34 > 0:29:37I want to run a university, most of my tweets will probably
0:29:37 > 0:29:38come back to haunt me.
0:29:38 > 0:29:39That's not how things work.
0:29:39 > 0:29:42And also, I just want to quickly add, we're talking a lot
0:29:42 > 0:29:44about Toby Young and the things that he said.
0:29:44 > 0:29:46What about the things that he's done?
0:29:46 > 0:29:48What about news today that he attended, at UCL,
0:29:48 > 0:29:49a eugenics conference?
0:29:49 > 0:29:51That is some dark, Nazi stuff, man.
0:29:51 > 0:29:52And it's not acceptable in modern education.
0:29:52 > 0:29:57APPLAUSE
0:29:57 > 0:29:59OK, wait, Piers.
0:29:59 > 0:30:02Before we get trouble from the lawyers...
0:30:02 > 0:30:04You can't call him a Nazi.
0:30:04 > 0:30:05I didn't call him a Nazi.
0:30:05 > 0:30:07I described the practice of eugenics
0:30:07 > 0:30:11as having its history in ancestral fascism.
0:30:11 > 0:30:13Let's just explain two things.
0:30:13 > 0:30:16He says he attended it, sat at the back and listened
0:30:16 > 0:30:19because he was writing an article, didn't take part in it
0:30:19 > 0:30:21and wasn't on the panel.
0:30:21 > 0:30:23And McDonnell, to you, didn't actually himself say that.
0:30:23 > 0:30:24He was quoting.
0:30:24 > 0:30:26He may wrong to have quoted it.
0:30:26 > 0:30:28But he made a joke of it, David.
0:30:28 > 0:30:29Those aren't the same things.
0:30:29 > 0:30:30He didn't himself say it.
0:30:30 > 0:30:31He did, he repeated it.
0:30:31 > 0:30:34He said, "Some people say to me, not just she should be sacked,
0:30:34 > 0:30:35but lynch the bastard",
0:30:35 > 0:30:37to ripples of laughter.
0:30:37 > 0:30:39I've now satisfied the lawyers and I clearly haven't
0:30:39 > 0:30:41satisfied either of you, but that doesn't matter.
0:30:41 > 0:30:43You, with the spectacles.
0:30:43 > 0:30:45Labour and the Tories can trade barbs with each other
0:30:45 > 0:30:47all they want on who said what.
0:30:47 > 0:30:49Everyone's got as much ammunition as they want.
0:30:49 > 0:30:52But the hypocrisy of the Labour Party when they come back and say
0:30:52 > 0:30:54Jared O'Mara is just suspended but Toby Young should be sacked.
0:30:54 > 0:31:01There are people in Sheffield now who don't have a voice in Parliament
0:31:01 > 0:31:03because the Labour Party just won't do anything.
0:31:03 > 0:31:06They need to take action and be consistent in dealing
0:31:06 > 0:31:08out their outrage, equally amongst anyone who...
0:31:08 > 0:31:10It's being dealt with.
0:31:10 > 0:31:12APPLAUSE
0:31:12 > 0:31:13Gina Miller.
0:31:13 > 0:31:15Can I say that I actually do.
0:31:15 > 0:31:18I think the scoring of political points has got to stop.
0:31:18 > 0:31:21We have got to find a way of having adult conversations when it comes
0:31:21 > 0:31:23to really important matters.
0:31:23 > 0:31:27Because the lessons we're leaving for our children is, you know,
0:31:27 > 0:31:29you can behave whichever way you want.
0:31:29 > 0:31:30There is no consequence.
0:31:30 > 0:31:31You can lie, you can cheat.
0:31:31 > 0:31:33This is serious.
0:31:33 > 0:31:35You cannot have somebody in public office that's behaving like this,
0:31:35 > 0:31:39and I don't know how incompetent the screening process must have
0:31:39 > 0:31:42been to actually let him get into that position.
0:31:42 > 0:31:45Because it's going to be a position where you are actually influencing
0:31:45 > 0:31:47the future generations.
0:31:47 > 0:31:50And to have someone there thinking it's a joke, or laughing,
0:31:50 > 0:31:52or thinking it's funny, or his friends who supported him
0:31:52 > 0:31:56have said, don't be so soft.
0:31:56 > 0:31:58This is not just about women.
0:31:58 > 0:31:59This is about anyone.
0:31:59 > 0:32:01You have no right to degrade another person.
0:32:01 > 0:32:09I'm sorry, but you don't.
0:32:09 > 0:32:10APPLAUSE
0:32:10 > 0:32:14Yes, you, sir.
0:32:14 > 0:32:17So Toby Young has said some awful things and has since been
0:32:17 > 0:32:18removed from government.
0:32:18 > 0:32:20Piers' mate, Donald Trump, has said some awful things too,
0:32:20 > 0:32:25and is still the President of the United States.
0:32:25 > 0:32:27OK, I'm not coming to Trump.
0:32:27 > 0:32:29We might come to Trump later, but we'll see.
0:32:29 > 0:32:31The man there in the blue jacket.
0:32:31 > 0:32:34Isn't it to do with Theresa May's judgment, basically?
0:32:34 > 0:32:37She was the one who appointed this guy.
0:32:37 > 0:32:40People close to her would have had obviously stuff on Toby Young,
0:32:40 > 0:32:43looked into his past, you would have hoped.
0:32:43 > 0:32:46And yet he slips through the net and he's there and she gets another
0:32:46 > 0:32:48crisis she's dealing with now.
0:32:48 > 0:32:52Because, yeah, she didn't deal with it at the beginning.
0:32:52 > 0:32:54Dominic Raab, can you answer this point?
0:32:54 > 0:32:56Why did he slip through the net?
0:32:56 > 0:32:58Why did Jo Johnson let him get through the net?
0:32:58 > 0:33:01Why did Theresa May say as long as he doesn't do it
0:33:01 > 0:33:02again it will be OK?
0:33:02 > 0:33:04Well, look, first of all he was appointed
0:33:04 > 0:33:06because of the positive things he'd done.
0:33:06 > 0:33:08But in the end you may be right.
0:33:08 > 0:33:10But look, social media going back years, it's
0:33:10 > 0:33:11difficult to screen that.
0:33:11 > 0:33:14How many man-hours do you want the government to put into that?
0:33:14 > 0:33:16But look, it should have obviously been done better,
0:33:16 > 0:33:17and we learn the lesson.
0:33:17 > 0:33:20The Tories have not been very good on social media anyway
0:33:20 > 0:33:24in campaigns as well, so maybe that's what it is.
0:33:24 > 0:33:26Piers found my tweet in five minutes.
0:33:26 > 0:33:27Maybe we should get him involved.
0:33:27 > 0:33:30But I'm not sure he'd come and work for the Tories.
0:33:30 > 0:33:32The point is this.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35To describe it as a crisis, I think most people looked
0:33:35 > 0:33:37at that and thought, people care about real things,
0:33:37 > 0:33:40the state of the economy, whether you voted Leave or Remain,
0:33:40 > 0:33:41making a success of Brexit.
0:33:41 > 0:33:44You're right to say that we should be held to higher standard.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46I just wish Labour would apply some consistency and we wouldn't get
0:33:46 > 0:33:49the rank double standards we see at the moment.
0:33:49 > 0:33:50APPLAUSE
0:33:50 > 0:33:56A brief word because we must move onto something else.
0:33:56 > 0:34:01There's a fundamental issue here with regards to the process.
0:34:01 > 0:34:04There's a fundamental issue to how these public appointments are made,
0:34:04 > 0:34:06because I would like other people who are interested in higher
0:34:06 > 0:34:09education to get an opportunity to be part of a quango
0:34:09 > 0:34:11and a government body.
0:34:11 > 0:34:13And the gentleman in the audience is absolutely right,
0:34:13 > 0:34:16it does throw into question the judgment of the Prime Minister,
0:34:16 > 0:34:18and also the power that she has.
0:34:18 > 0:34:19Because on Sunday she defended him.
0:34:19 > 0:34:21In Parliament I had to stand up for an hour.
0:34:21 > 0:34:24Jo Johnson defended him, only the next day for him to resign
0:34:24 > 0:34:27because it was untenable.
0:34:27 > 0:34:28You can come in.
0:34:28 > 0:34:31Let me just bring in Nish Kumar.
0:34:31 > 0:34:34I just want to say, again I'll bring you back to this question.
0:34:34 > 0:34:36I'm so sick...
0:34:36 > 0:34:37Don't say the same thing again.
0:34:37 > 0:34:43I'm profoundly sick of people like Toby Young, who described
0:34:43 > 0:34:44himself as a journalistic provocateur, who professionally
0:34:44 > 0:34:45are essentially unpleasant people.
0:34:45 > 0:34:48And that's what they do, they do things to get a reaction.
0:34:48 > 0:34:50And then when they get a reaction, they throw
0:34:50 > 0:34:52their toys out of the pram.
0:34:52 > 0:34:53Grow up.
0:34:53 > 0:34:55APPLAUSE
0:34:55 > 0:34:58Gina, briefly.
0:34:58 > 0:35:01I spoke to someone very senior in the university circle last night,
0:35:01 > 0:35:02and it's a small circle.
0:35:02 > 0:35:06And they said to Dawn's point that they are not aware of anybody
0:35:06 > 0:35:08who was allowed the opportunity to stand up and be
0:35:08 > 0:35:09interviewed for that post.
0:35:09 > 0:35:10And it's a very small community.
0:35:10 > 0:35:12That is extremely worrying and very opaque.
0:35:12 > 0:35:14And we've got to have more transparency in these appointments.
0:35:14 > 0:35:19OK, we'll move on to another question now.
0:35:19 > 0:35:23Daniela, please.
0:35:23 > 0:35:25Missed targets, failed pledges, patients dying in hospitals.
0:35:25 > 0:35:27Isn't it high time that Jeremy Hunt is sacked,
0:35:27 > 0:35:30rather than acquiring additional responsibilities?
0:35:30 > 0:35:38CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:35:38 > 0:35:41Missed targets, failed pledges, patients dying in hospital,
0:35:41 > 0:35:44all while Hunt is Health Secretary.
0:35:44 > 0:35:47Isn't it time he was sacked instead of acquiring,
0:35:47 > 0:35:48as he did this week, more responsibility?
0:35:48 > 0:35:49Dominic Raab.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52Well, look, there's definitely challenges in the NHS at the moment
0:35:52 > 0:35:55and when you see some of the reporting, of course I think
0:35:55 > 0:35:59that the job of the GPs and the nurses on the front
0:35:59 > 0:36:02line is heroic.
0:36:02 > 0:36:04But I also think we need to have some measure
0:36:04 > 0:36:06of the big picture here.
0:36:06 > 0:36:08And the Commonwealth Fund in 2017 looked at health
0:36:08 > 0:36:10services around the world, from New Zealand to Norway,
0:36:10 > 0:36:13and found the NHS to be the safest and the best in the world.
0:36:13 > 0:36:20We've put more money than ever, 12 billion more than in 2010
0:36:20 > 0:36:22when the last government were in charge.
0:36:22 > 0:36:23We promised another 6 billion.
0:36:23 > 0:36:25We've also got to do things differently,
0:36:25 > 0:36:26and we've started to do that.
0:36:26 > 0:36:29We've got more beds, more doctors, more flu vaccines
0:36:29 > 0:36:31available than ever before.
0:36:31 > 0:36:34But I do think that it requires a long-term view.
0:36:34 > 0:36:38We need to also change the way we're doing things in the NHS.
0:36:38 > 0:36:42One of the big things in the reshuffle is integrating social
0:36:42 > 0:36:43care with the NHS.
0:36:43 > 0:36:47You haven't used the word Hunt so far.
0:36:47 > 0:36:49Well, look, I think anyone doing that job has got
0:36:49 > 0:36:51a hell of a task in hand.
0:36:51 > 0:36:54But if you look at these problems we're facing in the winter,
0:36:54 > 0:36:57they are across the UK and we've had them for years.
0:36:57 > 0:37:00They are true in Scotland, where the SNP are in charge of the NHS.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02They are true in Wales, where Labour are in charge.
0:37:02 > 0:37:04You have them in France, in Australia.
0:37:04 > 0:37:06And it's very difficult to deal with these spikes
0:37:06 > 0:37:08in demand and pressures on the NHS at wintertime.
0:37:08 > 0:37:10But we are better prepared than ever.
0:37:10 > 0:37:13Don't take that from me.
0:37:13 > 0:37:16That comes from Professor Keith Willits, who is in charge of A&E
0:37:16 > 0:37:18units up and down the country.
0:37:18 > 0:37:20Daniela.
0:37:20 > 0:37:23That's not what I asked so I'm going to reiterate that really simply.
0:37:23 > 0:37:24We have an incompetent Prime Minister.
0:37:24 > 0:37:26She remains in office yet lacks power.
0:37:26 > 0:37:29And thus this enables ministers to bully her to acquire additional
0:37:29 > 0:37:31ministerial responsibilities.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34The NHS is a vital service for our nation.
0:37:34 > 0:37:39It's not a playground for career hungry politicians.
0:37:39 > 0:37:44APPLAUSE
0:37:44 > 0:37:47Gina Miller.
0:37:47 > 0:37:51This idea that it's a winter crisis, every year it's a winter crisis.
0:37:51 > 0:37:54It's just diverting attention from the fact that the NHS has been
0:37:54 > 0:37:56in crisis for eight years.
0:37:56 > 0:38:01And when you've got people like the King's Fund,
0:38:01 > 0:38:02the Nuffield Trust, how many more experts,
0:38:02 > 0:38:04the BMA chair in London,
0:38:04 > 0:38:07all saying the NHS is underfunded.
0:38:07 > 0:38:13It needs, urgently, about 4 billion year.
0:38:13 > 0:38:15It's getting 1.6 and that's set to go down.
0:38:15 > 0:38:16Dominic comes out with figures.
0:38:16 > 0:38:18Actually listen to the figures that the profession
0:38:18 > 0:38:19itself is saying.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22We have the lowest spend of any OECD country when it
0:38:22 > 0:38:23comes to beds per 1000.
0:38:23 > 0:38:252.6.
0:38:25 > 0:38:27Look at Germany, look at our staffing levels.
0:38:27 > 0:38:28It's a disgrace.
0:38:28 > 0:38:31But the only way the problems of the NHS, in my view,
0:38:31 > 0:38:34will be actually addressed is to have a full audit of the NHS
0:38:34 > 0:38:37that looks at everything from staffing to procurement,
0:38:37 > 0:38:40to administration, and actually asks the people who work in the NHS
0:38:40 > 0:38:45what is it that they need, and have a joined up
0:38:45 > 0:38:48cross-party solution to this.
0:38:48 > 0:38:54It's too important to leave to one political party.
0:38:54 > 0:38:59APPLAUSE
0:38:59 > 0:39:00Piers Morgan.
0:39:00 > 0:39:02Jeremy Hunt is the Arsene Wenger, isn't he, of this government?
0:39:02 > 0:39:04He just won't go.
0:39:04 > 0:39:06And it doesn't matter how badly he and his team perform.
0:39:06 > 0:39:10He just won't leave.
0:39:10 > 0:39:12In fact, eventually, after five years of this,
0:39:12 > 0:39:15ending in this absolute nadir of what we've now got on our hands
0:39:15 > 0:39:18over this winter, the worst ever, he gets called in by his boss
0:39:18 > 0:39:21who says, I'm moving you on.
0:39:21 > 0:39:23He says, I'd rather stay if you don't mind.
0:39:23 > 0:39:26Righto, stay then, carry on.
0:39:26 > 0:39:29It's complete and utter farce, isn't it?
0:39:29 > 0:39:32The NHS problem is not actually just about the Tories, not about Labour.
0:39:32 > 0:39:36They've all cocked it up for decades.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39The reason is they've been unable to respond to the harsh reality
0:39:39 > 0:39:40of what has happened to this country.
0:39:40 > 0:39:43The NHS was started in 1948, 70 years ago.
0:39:43 > 0:39:45By Labour.
0:39:45 > 0:39:49By Labour.
0:39:49 > 0:39:50It was a brilliant idea.
0:39:50 > 0:39:53We all agree we love the NHS.
0:39:53 > 0:39:57I had to use it a few times in the last two years,
0:39:57 > 0:39:58various injuries, fallen over, broken ribs.
0:39:58 > 0:39:59My wife fell over.
0:39:59 > 0:40:01We all fall over in our house.
0:40:01 > 0:40:04My little daughter had a fit one night and we took her in.
0:40:04 > 0:40:06Amazing, amazing treatment every time by the brilliant
0:40:06 > 0:40:07staff in the NHS.
0:40:07 > 0:40:09But they are overworked, they are underpaid and
0:40:09 > 0:40:10under resourced.
0:40:10 > 0:40:15And the point I was going to make was that the population has grown
0:40:15 > 0:40:19by a third since the start of the NHS, and is projected
0:40:19 > 0:40:22to grow to 74 million, another 10 million by 2039.
0:40:22 > 0:40:26This population is also living a lot longer,
0:40:26 > 0:40:30so we have a massively larger number of people living a lot longer,
0:40:30 > 0:40:34putting a huge new strain on a system that simply wasn't
0:40:34 > 0:40:37devised to tolerate this number of people using it.
0:40:37 > 0:40:40We've got to have big thinking, and all this lot have to come
0:40:40 > 0:40:43together, stop the petty point-scoring, get in a room
0:40:43 > 0:40:48and work out big solutions to try and save the NHS.
0:40:48 > 0:40:56APPLAUSE
0:40:56 > 0:40:59Let me, so we don't go round and round on the same point,
0:40:59 > 0:41:01throw in a question from George Sweet here
0:41:01 > 0:41:02on exactly the same topic.
0:41:02 > 0:41:06George.
0:41:06 > 0:41:09Do you support a new tax specifically to fund health care?
0:41:09 > 0:41:12Does the panel support a new tax specifically to fund health care,
0:41:12 > 0:41:15which was put forward today, or the other day, and which would
0:41:15 > 0:41:17mean that National Insurance became national health insurance.
0:41:17 > 0:41:20What do you think?
0:41:20 > 0:41:21Yeah, I absolutely agree with that.
0:41:21 > 0:41:24The reality is that if we want this incredible service,
0:41:24 > 0:41:26which isn't just something that provides free at the point
0:41:26 > 0:41:28of delivery health care, it also is more economically
0:41:28 > 0:41:31efficient than a huge number of the part or fully privatised
0:41:31 > 0:41:34health systems that exist around the world, we've got to pay for it.
0:41:34 > 0:41:37And what we need is a politician who has the guts to look
0:41:37 > 0:41:40at the British public and say, listen, if you want this incredible
0:41:40 > 0:41:42service then you have to pay for it.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45But that has not been helped since 2010 by a string of cuts
0:41:45 > 0:41:49to various different levels of taxation.
0:41:49 > 0:41:51And also a string of cuts imposed by this government,
0:41:51 > 0:41:54not just on the health care service but on social care.
0:41:54 > 0:41:56The cuts to social care have increased the pressure
0:41:56 > 0:41:58on the National Health Service.
0:41:58 > 0:42:00This is a very simple thing.
0:42:00 > 0:42:03I'm sick of every time I turn on my television and there's
0:42:03 > 0:42:06a politician talking about the NHS, they all say the same thing,
0:42:06 > 0:42:07exactly what you said, Dominic.
0:42:07 > 0:42:08They do incredible work.
0:42:08 > 0:42:12We admire them so much, but we're not going to give them any money.
0:42:12 > 0:42:13It's a simple solution.
0:42:13 > 0:42:15We've got to cough up and we need politicians
0:42:15 > 0:42:17to have the guts to say that.
0:42:17 > 0:42:18Why don't we ask the audience?
0:42:18 > 0:42:21No.
0:42:21 > 0:42:22No.
0:42:22 > 0:42:25You will not, Piers, we will not have a show of hands.
0:42:25 > 0:42:27We do not do show of...
0:42:27 > 0:42:29I don't know what you do on your show.
0:42:29 > 0:42:30We do show of hands.
0:42:30 > 0:42:33Fine, go back to your show, you're not sharing this one.
0:42:33 > 0:42:40Dawn Butler.
0:42:40 > 0:42:44Before you start, Dominic Raab said, and the Prime Minister said
0:42:44 > 0:42:47in the House of Commons this week, that it is said that the British
0:42:47 > 0:42:51National Health Service is the best health service in the entire world.
0:42:51 > 0:42:53He went through a whole string of countries.
0:42:53 > 0:42:54The best in the world.
0:42:54 > 0:42:56Do you agree with that?
0:42:56 > 0:42:58Yes, so why don't they pay the doctors and the nurses?
0:42:58 > 0:43:01Do you agree with that, that it is the best?
0:43:01 > 0:43:02I think it is the best.
0:43:02 > 0:43:04I think that there's other countries that are looking to...
0:43:04 > 0:43:06Other countries that have worse problems?
0:43:06 > 0:43:08Other countries looking to emulate our NHS.
0:43:08 > 0:43:10Do you mean that other countries have worse
0:43:10 > 0:43:12problems than Britain, that as far as the National
0:43:12 > 0:43:14Health Service goes, we have the top quality,
0:43:14 > 0:43:17cream of the cream?
0:43:17 > 0:43:18We have a great NHS.
0:43:18 > 0:43:20At the moment it's starved of resources.
0:43:20 > 0:43:22It is starved of cash.
0:43:22 > 0:43:25It's low on doctors.
0:43:25 > 0:43:27There's thousands of vacancies for nurses.
0:43:27 > 0:43:31And that is because this government stopped nurses' bursaries.
0:43:31 > 0:43:35You know, they're doing one thing on one hand and then they say
0:43:35 > 0:43:37everything is great.
0:43:37 > 0:43:39You have to have some joined up thinking.
0:43:39 > 0:43:42You can't keep compartmentalising things.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45And this government, it just drives me crazy
0:43:45 > 0:43:47because you're just so out of touch.
0:43:47 > 0:43:50I mean, they're giving the NHS just 1% every year.
0:43:50 > 0:43:52Under Labour it was 4% every year.
0:43:52 > 0:43:57It needs more money, not less money.
0:43:57 > 0:44:00We're putting 12 billion more per year than under Labour.
0:44:00 > 0:44:01You keep saying all of this.
0:44:01 > 0:44:04You are putting in less than under Labour.
0:44:04 > 0:44:05I listened to you.
0:44:05 > 0:44:07In Wales, where Labour are in charge...
0:44:07 > 0:44:08You have to stop lying!
0:44:08 > 0:44:09Nobody believes it.
0:44:09 > 0:44:12Nobody believes it, because they feel it.
0:44:12 > 0:44:13People use the NHS.
0:44:13 > 0:44:18They know what it feels like when you have to wait.
0:44:18 > 0:44:20TALKING OVER EACH OTHER.
0:44:20 > 0:44:23Dawn, you are talking about it as though it was in a state
0:44:23 > 0:44:27of collapse, and yet you agree that it's the best in the world.
0:44:27 > 0:44:29It's a Tory claim, you agree with them?
0:44:29 > 0:44:30APPLAUSE.
0:44:30 > 0:44:37Listen, the NHS in how it's created, is in fact, in theory,
0:44:37 > 0:44:40the best in the world, if it had the resources and money
0:44:40 > 0:44:42to carry out what it needs to do.
0:44:42 > 0:44:43That's like your answer to Brexit.
0:44:43 > 0:44:47There are nurses who are spending their entire shifts in the car park
0:44:47 > 0:44:50of a hospital because ambulances are parked up and can't
0:44:50 > 0:44:52get into the hospital.
0:44:52 > 0:44:55And what do you think of George Sweet's proposal,
0:44:55 > 0:44:58that we should have a special tax for the NHS called
0:44:58 > 0:45:01national health insurance?
0:45:01 > 0:45:04Do you think it's a good idea, one you'd consider?
0:45:04 > 0:45:06The Labour Party's manifesto, the plan was to raise
0:45:06 > 0:45:10taxes for the top 5%, so that we could give the NHS
0:45:10 > 0:45:14the funding it needs, and that was in the Labour Party
0:45:14 > 0:45:16manifesto.
0:45:16 > 0:45:19Also, if we get all the corporation tax, 70 billion by 2020,
0:45:19 > 0:45:22that money could also go into the NHS.
0:45:22 > 0:45:23You haven't answered my question.
0:45:23 > 0:45:25The woman at the very back.
0:45:25 > 0:45:26Yes, you.
0:45:26 > 0:45:30Like Piers says, the NHS is far from a Tory problem,
0:45:30 > 0:45:32but they've certainly not helped it.
0:45:32 > 0:45:35Instead of engaging, admitting a problem and engaging
0:45:35 > 0:45:37in some useful discussion as to what can actually be done
0:45:37 > 0:45:40to sort it, they seem to be operating in a system of complete
0:45:40 > 0:45:45denial and trotting out a survey which clearly doesn't reflect
0:45:45 > 0:45:48the day-to-day experiences that our front line NHS
0:45:48 > 0:45:51staff are telling us they are experiencing.
0:45:51 > 0:45:52OK.
0:45:52 > 0:45:54The woman in red.
0:45:54 > 0:45:58I think it's really easy to just think this is a problem...
0:45:58 > 0:46:01I mean, Theresa May, she's sitting in her office,
0:46:01 > 0:46:03looking at paperwork saying, cuts here, cuts there, but she's not
0:46:03 > 0:46:06going to be affected by this, because the people making
0:46:06 > 0:46:09the decisions can afford private health care.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12They are not going to be affected by not enough hospital beds.
0:46:12 > 0:46:17People in this country need the NHS to survive.
0:46:17 > 0:46:21Gina Miller.
0:46:21 > 0:46:24There was a Sky report saying that 68% of people would agree
0:46:24 > 0:46:27to a 1% tax increase, if they could guarantee it would go
0:46:27 > 0:46:30to the NHS but, as Dawn said, I actually think we should be
0:46:30 > 0:46:33cracking down on all of those companies who are not paying
0:46:33 > 0:46:35tax in this country, and they are the ones,
0:46:35 > 0:46:37like Google and Amazon, and that money should be
0:46:37 > 0:46:38going to the NHS.
0:46:38 > 0:46:44APPLAUSE.
0:46:44 > 0:46:46The other thing is, one of the suggestions has
0:46:46 > 0:46:48been a royal commission, which I think is a complete
0:46:48 > 0:46:51waste of time and money and will take too long.
0:46:51 > 0:46:53Actually, there are already good reports out there.
0:46:53 > 0:46:55There's the Berkeley report, there is a House of Lords
0:46:55 > 0:46:56report just last year.
0:46:56 > 0:47:00Why do you not just use what's already there and get on and make
0:47:00 > 0:47:01some changes cross-party?
0:47:01 > 0:47:04OK, and you in the second row.
0:47:04 > 0:47:08I recently had a family member have to go into hospital for several
0:47:08 > 0:47:10months, and night after night there was one nurse
0:47:10 > 0:47:12for the whole ward.
0:47:12 > 0:47:16The staff shortage on the wards is stark.
0:47:16 > 0:47:21What is the Government going to do to get more nurses on the ground?
0:47:21 > 0:47:24I'll go to the man on the gangway, with the moustache.
0:47:24 > 0:47:27Yes, you, sir.
0:47:27 > 0:47:30I think the Government needs to come up with a realistic, long-term plan.
0:47:30 > 0:47:33We are all fed up of these false promises and numbers
0:47:33 > 0:47:34being plucked out of thin air.
0:47:34 > 0:47:37For example, in 2015, Jeremy Hunt said they were going to promise
0:47:37 > 0:47:405,000 new GPs by 2020.
0:47:40 > 0:47:44Last year, we've got 1,000 less GPs than we had in the previous year.
0:47:44 > 0:47:47Where are the doctors going to come from?
0:47:47 > 0:47:49Is there a magic doctor tree?
0:47:49 > 0:47:51I don't think so.
0:47:51 > 0:47:55We've only got a few minutes left and I want to get
0:47:55 > 0:47:58in a couple of other questions, if I can.
0:47:58 > 0:48:00We'll come back to the NHS frequently.
0:48:00 > 0:48:05I'd like to take this question from Michael Harton.
0:48:05 > 0:48:09Do you agree with Donald Trump that he is a very stable genius?
0:48:09 > 0:48:11LAUGHTER.
0:48:11 > 0:48:12Nish Kumar.
0:48:12 > 0:48:15Er...
0:48:15 > 0:48:18For the purposes of my possible visit to America later
0:48:18 > 0:48:21on in the year, yes, yes, I do.
0:48:21 > 0:48:23APPLAUSE.
0:48:23 > 0:48:28I want you to know.
0:48:28 > 0:48:31I think you might be the greatest genius of all time.
0:48:31 > 0:48:35Between us, the guy is an absolute lunatic.
0:48:35 > 0:48:39I mean, as much as I respect Oprah Winfrey and admire the speech
0:48:39 > 0:48:43she gave last weekend, it does say something of the extent
0:48:43 > 0:48:46to which Donald Trump has debased the American presidency
0:48:46 > 0:48:49as an institution that one speech at an award ceremony
0:48:49 > 0:48:53has people being like, she should be president!
0:48:53 > 0:48:55Piers Morgan.
0:48:55 > 0:48:59Thank you for letting me speak, David.
0:48:59 > 0:49:01I think, speaking as an unstable...
0:49:01 > 0:49:04You needn't speak too long.
0:49:04 > 0:49:07Speaking as an unstable genius myself, Trump
0:49:07 > 0:49:08is an interesting character.
0:49:08 > 0:49:10If you like him, you love him.
0:49:10 > 0:49:12If you hate him, you detest him.
0:49:12 > 0:49:14I've travelled a lot in America recently.
0:49:14 > 0:49:17LA, New York, they can't stand him - a bit like Britain,
0:49:17 > 0:49:18many parts of Britain.
0:49:18 > 0:49:21But actually, if you go through the middle of America,
0:49:21 > 0:49:23you fly over states like Missouri, Texas and Florida,
0:49:23 > 0:49:25they love Donald Trump.
0:49:25 > 0:49:26They love the fact he's a maverick.
0:49:26 > 0:49:27They love the mad tweeting.
0:49:27 > 0:49:30They love him standing up to Kim Jong-un.
0:49:30 > 0:49:32They love the fact the economy is actually beginning to surge
0:49:32 > 0:49:34in America and job numbers are good.
0:49:34 > 0:49:36He is taking on Isis.
0:49:36 > 0:49:40You can construct a very positive story about Trump, which is clouded
0:49:40 > 0:49:42by all the tweeting, or you can just continue to say
0:49:42 > 0:49:45the guy is a lunatic and we should ban him from ever coming
0:49:45 > 0:49:46to Britain, for example.
0:49:46 > 0:49:48He is due here in February.
0:49:48 > 0:49:51I hope we afford him, not because he's Donald Trump,
0:49:51 > 0:49:53but because he's the President of the United States,
0:49:53 > 0:49:55I hope we afford that office and that country,
0:49:55 > 0:49:59which is going to be vital to us post-Brexit,
0:49:59 > 0:50:02the kind of respect that America and the office of the
0:50:02 > 0:50:04presidency deserves.
0:50:04 > 0:50:07So, in that sense, I'm very happy, if you are watching, Mr Trump,
0:50:07 > 0:50:11to call you a stable genius.
0:50:11 > 0:50:13All right, you, sir, over there.
0:50:13 > 0:50:15Briefly, if you would.
0:50:15 > 0:50:16From our wonderful liberal position here in London,
0:50:16 > 0:50:20it's very easy to treat Mr Trump as an easy target.
0:50:20 > 0:50:24Don't forget that the Americans actually voted for him.
0:50:24 > 0:50:26OK.
0:50:26 > 0:50:28Up there, yes, you, sir.
0:50:28 > 0:50:31What's going to happen in 2020 when it's the next US election?
0:50:31 > 0:50:33We've got Oprah Winfrey, Donald Trump already.
0:50:33 > 0:50:35Next I hear is The Rock is going to get involved.
0:50:35 > 0:50:38I mean, Piers, do you want to do the UK election next time?
0:50:38 > 0:50:42Funny you ask, there was a poll on ITV this week and 57%
0:50:42 > 0:50:44of the British public thought I should replace Theresa May.
0:50:44 > 0:50:47So the campaign starts tonight!
0:50:47 > 0:50:49Now I want to see a show of hands.
0:50:49 > 0:50:52Gina Miller.
0:50:52 > 0:50:54No show of hands allowed.
0:50:54 > 0:50:55Gina Miller.
0:50:55 > 0:50:57I think Trump, there is no denying he is a narcissist.
0:50:57 > 0:50:59I don't know about a genius.
0:50:59 > 0:51:01Someone who actually has to put it down on a tweet,
0:51:01 > 0:51:02you have to question.
0:51:02 > 0:51:06But I think, I do agree with Piers that you have to respect the office,
0:51:06 > 0:51:09and there's an old saying you get the politicians you deserve.
0:51:09 > 0:51:11Perhaps there's something about what's happened in American
0:51:11 > 0:51:13politics and how little the public in America have trusted
0:51:13 > 0:51:17their establishments in the US that have led to Trump being in power.
0:51:17 > 0:51:22And perhaps it will lead to the shock that the American
0:51:22 > 0:51:25people need to get a better leader next time.
0:51:25 > 0:51:27OK, Dominic Raab.
0:51:27 > 0:51:30You'll probably have to be polite.
0:51:30 > 0:51:32I watched that soap opera in Washington,
0:51:32 > 0:51:36DC as bemused as everyone else, but the Americans voted for him and,
0:51:36 > 0:51:39the way I look at it, the ties that bind our countries
0:51:39 > 0:51:43and peoples, American and British, are far deeper and more important
0:51:43 > 0:51:47than any individual politician on either side of the Atlantic,
0:51:47 > 0:51:49whether it is on trade or security cooperation
0:51:49 > 0:51:51and the fight against Daesh.
0:51:51 > 0:51:54What I tend to focus relentlessly on is that,
0:51:54 > 0:51:57and I think Theresa May has done the right thing in saying, you know
0:51:57 > 0:52:00what, I'll tell him when I disagree, but we are engaging in grown-up
0:52:00 > 0:52:02diplomacy, not student union politics.
0:52:02 > 0:52:05That means we get a positive influence.
0:52:05 > 0:52:09We tell him when we think he's got it wrong, on Putin, on Nato,
0:52:09 > 0:52:11on the tweeting around Britain First, which was abhorrent,
0:52:11 > 0:52:15but actually what matters most is the bonds and ties that we have
0:52:15 > 0:52:17between our two peoples, and they are stronger
0:52:17 > 0:52:19than any to politicians.
0:52:19 > 0:52:20Can I just say...?
0:52:20 > 0:52:21Yes.
0:52:21 > 0:52:23I just wanted to say, there's a couple of things.
0:52:23 > 0:52:26People keep saying the American people voted for him.
0:52:26 > 0:52:28Firstly, the majority of America didn't vote for him,
0:52:28 > 0:52:29because he lost the popular vote.
0:52:29 > 0:52:33Secondly, I can't help but feel how you relate to Donald Trump,
0:52:33 > 0:52:38there is a huge relationship with what your ethnicity is.
0:52:38 > 0:52:41And I suspect that, if you are a white American,
0:52:41 > 0:52:43you might think, well, let's see how this maverick plays
0:52:43 > 0:52:46out but, if you are not white, it might be a very,
0:52:46 > 0:52:47very different story.
0:52:47 > 0:52:50Because maverick, certainly in the last couple of years, seems
0:52:50 > 0:52:53to be code for enormous racist.
0:52:53 > 0:52:55The man in white at the back there.
0:52:55 > 0:52:57You, sir.
0:52:57 > 0:52:59I'll go one further and say he's more than a narcissist,
0:52:59 > 0:53:02he's probably a sociopath.
0:53:02 > 0:53:05But then aren't most people who've got to the top of the political
0:53:05 > 0:53:07and corporate ladder?
0:53:07 > 0:53:10And, at the end of the day, the American political system has
0:53:10 > 0:53:12enough people around him who, I believe, are sensible,
0:53:12 > 0:53:16and the correct mechanics to get rid of him, should they need to.
0:53:16 > 0:53:18Dawn Butler.
0:53:18 > 0:53:21I think that Theresa May showed a serious lack of judgment
0:53:21 > 0:53:25in inviting him after seven days to come to our country on a state
0:53:25 > 0:53:30visit, and I don't think that should be allowed or happen.
0:53:30 > 0:53:33Is he a very stable genius?
0:53:33 > 0:53:36I think he said he is a very, very stable genius, didn't he?
0:53:36 > 0:53:37I think he had two verys.
0:53:37 > 0:53:40Well, I think he's got his medical on Friday.
0:53:40 > 0:53:43Let's wait and see.
0:53:43 > 0:53:45Now, we've got a couple of minutes left.
0:53:45 > 0:53:47It sounds like this programme is designed for you, Piers,
0:53:47 > 0:53:50because you claim to be a friend of Donald Trump, but I'm
0:53:50 > 0:53:52going to take this question just round the panel.
0:53:52 > 0:53:56Molly Fariez, I think it is.
0:53:56 > 0:53:59Is the decision by Virgin Trains to stop selling the Daily Mail
0:53:59 > 0:54:01a form of censorship?
0:54:01 > 0:54:04Virgin Trains say they are not selling the Daily Mail because it
0:54:04 > 0:54:07doesn't fit the ethos of Virgin Trains, whatever that
0:54:07 > 0:54:10may be, and therefore they are not going to sell it.
0:54:10 > 0:54:13OK, Dawn Butler, you start on it.
0:54:13 > 0:54:16I mean, I am in favour of free speech.
0:54:16 > 0:54:19I mean, occasionally...
0:54:19 > 0:54:21I've never bought the Daily Mail, can I just say?
0:54:21 > 0:54:22Never read it?
0:54:22 > 0:54:25But I have read it, because sometimes I want to see
0:54:25 > 0:54:26what they are saying.
0:54:26 > 0:54:27I think it's important sometimes...
0:54:27 > 0:54:28That's why people normally buy newspapers.
0:54:28 > 0:54:32To see what people who I disagree with are saying.
0:54:32 > 0:54:34Sometimes I think that's important.
0:54:34 > 0:54:36But it's up to Virgin.
0:54:36 > 0:54:38Is it a form of censorship?
0:54:38 > 0:54:40What do you think, Gina?
0:54:40 > 0:54:42The Daily Mail and I have not been friends.
0:54:42 > 0:54:45But I think, at the end of the day, they've looked.
0:54:45 > 0:54:48They've got falling numbers, newspapers are not going to be
0:54:48 > 0:54:49as important in the future.
0:54:49 > 0:54:51They are going to be available online.
0:54:51 > 0:54:54People on a Virgin train can connect online and read it online,
0:54:54 > 0:54:58so it's a hollow gesture to say you can't actually buy it.
0:54:58 > 0:55:00They can just go online and read it.
0:55:00 > 0:55:03No, but the line that is important is, this paper is not compatible
0:55:03 > 0:55:06with the Virgin brand and our beliefs.
0:55:06 > 0:55:09Virgin made a mess of communicating that, because first of all they said
0:55:09 > 0:55:12it was based on consumer research, and then it came out
0:55:12 > 0:55:14that they said it actually didn't fit with their brand.
0:55:14 > 0:55:17That was a confusing way of putting out that message.
0:55:17 > 0:55:21But I think, if they make that decision, if they don't
0:55:21 > 0:55:23want it on their trains, people can buy it elsewhere.
0:55:23 > 0:55:25They are a corporate entity and they are allowed
0:55:25 > 0:55:26to make that decision.
0:55:26 > 0:55:28Piers Morgan, is it censorship?
0:55:28 > 0:55:30Of course it is, and it's pathetic, frankly.
0:55:30 > 0:55:33I expect more from Sir Richard Branson, a guy I've always admired.
0:55:33 > 0:55:36The truth is they are only going to stock now the Times,
0:55:36 > 0:55:39the Guardian and the Mirror, which all backed Remain.
0:55:39 > 0:55:41Well, there's two points I'd make about the Mail,
0:55:41 > 0:55:43which is one of the most successful newspapers in the world.
0:55:43 > 0:55:47I write for it, so I would say that, but it happens to be true.
0:55:47 > 0:55:50And the Mail is not everyone's cup of tea, but those who like it
0:55:50 > 0:55:53and buy it really enjoy it on a daily basis.
0:55:53 > 0:55:55The Daily Mail has been at the forefront this week
0:55:55 > 0:55:58of a stunningly successful campaign on plastic bags.
0:55:58 > 0:56:01It's forced the Government into making really dramatic moves
0:56:01 > 0:56:03now on the environment and plastic bags.
0:56:03 > 0:56:06That was a Daily Mail-led campaign.
0:56:06 > 0:56:08Sorry, it's just about censorship.
0:56:08 > 0:56:10That's the point.
0:56:10 > 0:56:12When Virgin say they don't share those values, does that mean that
0:56:12 > 0:56:14Virgin doesn't share that value?
0:56:14 > 0:56:15Does it mean...
0:56:15 > 0:56:17Oh, God!
0:56:17 > 0:56:18Oh, groan!
0:56:18 > 0:56:19Well, it needs to be said!
0:56:19 > 0:56:21And I think it is censorship.
0:56:21 > 0:56:25I think it's wrong of them to do it and they are just doing it
0:56:25 > 0:56:27for cheap publicity, and shame on Virgin Trains.
0:56:27 > 0:56:28Dominic Raab.
0:56:28 > 0:56:29We're out of time.
0:56:29 > 0:56:31I'm not sure it's censorship, because they've got the right
0:56:31 > 0:56:34to choose who they sell, but I do think it's a bit
0:56:34 > 0:56:36of a hollow gesture, like Gina said.
0:56:36 > 0:56:39The real thing they are turning their nose up is all those millions
0:56:39 > 0:56:42of people that read the Daily Mail and saying, in effect,
0:56:42 > 0:56:43you're not our kind of people.
0:56:43 > 0:56:45I think, in these situations, the consumer is king.
0:56:45 > 0:56:48Let people decide what they read.
0:56:48 > 0:56:49Nish?
0:56:49 > 0:56:51I like to read Empire magazine on the train,
0:56:51 > 0:56:54but it's not available, so what I do is I go to these
0:56:54 > 0:56:57places called newsagents, they have them quite readily around
0:56:57 > 0:57:01the country, in the train station often, and I buy it and then
0:57:01 > 0:57:03I read it on the train, because I'm an adult,
0:57:03 > 0:57:08and I don't stand there screaming about my free speech being violated.
0:57:08 > 0:57:10The only thing I would say...
0:57:10 > 0:57:14APPLAUSE.
0:57:14 > 0:57:18Clearly, this is absolutely a publicity stunt from Virgin,
0:57:18 > 0:57:21and Virgin are a company that, in the last couple of weeks,
0:57:21 > 0:57:24have not covered themselves in glory in terms of their corporate ethics.
0:57:24 > 0:57:27Now, if I was the Daily Mail, and I'm the first to admit that
0:57:27 > 0:57:30I'm not, but if I was, I might look at that and think, wow,
0:57:30 > 0:57:33how bad must we be if even Virgin are judging us?
0:57:33 > 0:57:38We're out of time, I'm afraid.
0:57:38 > 0:57:44I'm sorry for those who have your hands up.
0:57:44 > 0:57:48Next Thursday, we're going to be in Hereford, and on our panel,
0:57:48 > 0:57:50the former Labour MP, now the Mayor of Manchester,
0:57:50 > 0:57:53Andy Burnham, the chairman of RBS, the Royal Bank of Scotland,
0:57:53 > 0:57:57Howard Davies, and the screenwriter and campaigner for LGBT rights,
0:57:57 > 0:58:00Dustin Lance-Black.
0:58:00 > 0:58:02And the week after that we are in Dumfries.
0:58:02 > 0:58:05So, if you can come to either of those places, on the screen
0:58:05 > 0:58:08is the telephone number, or you can apply online
0:58:08 > 0:58:10and follow the instructions.
0:58:14 > 0:58:17If you want to have your say, or more say, on the things
0:58:17 > 0:58:19we've been talking about, you haven't tweeted,
0:58:19 > 0:58:21you can actually call Question Time Extra Time on Radio 5
0:58:21 > 0:58:24Live.
0:58:24 > 0:58:26It's been taken over by Adrian Chiles.
0:58:26 > 0:58:30And you can call in or you can text, those of you who are sad not
0:58:30 > 0:58:33to text during this hour.
0:58:36 > 0:58:39Anyway, from here in Islington, my thanks to our panel,
0:58:39 > 0:58:41my thanks to all of you who came to take part.
0:58:41 > 0:58:48Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night.