0:00:05 > 0:00:13We're in Hereford tonight, and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:16 > 0:00:18With us here, the Government's new Culture Minister,
0:00:18 > 0:00:22who has an economics degree, founded her own business before
0:00:22 > 0:00:26becoming an MP, Margot James.
0:00:26 > 0:00:30The former Labour Health Secretary, who left Parliament in 2016
0:00:30 > 0:00:34to run and become Mayor of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham.
0:00:34 > 0:00:39A government advisor and deputy governor of the Bank
0:00:39 > 0:00:41of England formally, now chairman of the Royal Bank
0:00:41 > 0:00:45of Scotland, Howard Davies.
0:00:45 > 0:00:47The arts and culture advisor, Munira Mirza,
0:00:47 > 0:00:50who's worked for the Tate, the Royal Opera House
0:00:50 > 0:00:54and for Boris Johnson as one of his deputy mayors.
0:00:54 > 0:00:57And the screenwriter and film director who won
0:00:57 > 0:01:02an Oscar for the film Milk, Dustin Lance Black.
0:01:02 > 0:01:10APPLAUSE
0:01:11 > 0:01:15Thank you very much.
0:01:15 > 0:01:18Thank you very much and, as you well know, if you want to take issue,
0:01:18 > 0:01:21which I'm sure you do watching this programme, because it
0:01:21 > 0:01:26drives people crazy, you can do it at home
0:01:26 > 0:01:28using our hashtag bbcqt on either Twitter or on Facebook.
0:01:28 > 0:01:31Let's have our first question, it comes from James Burke, please.
0:01:31 > 0:01:32James Burke.
0:01:32 > 0:01:34Who should be held accountable for the collapse of Carillion
0:01:34 > 0:01:36and what action should they face?
0:01:36 > 0:01:40Right.
0:01:40 > 0:01:42We've had more questions on this than anything tonight.
0:01:42 > 0:01:46So who should be held accountable for the collapse
0:01:46 > 0:01:48and what action should they face, Margot James.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51I think that you have to hold the directors accountable.
0:01:51 > 0:01:55You have to hold the senior management accountable,
0:01:55 > 0:02:01and I think that they will face a great deal of approbrium and if -
0:02:01 > 0:02:07as the Government has set in place an inquiry through the insolvency
0:02:07 > 0:02:11service - if they have found to be negligent or worse they will,
0:02:11 > 0:02:19I hope, receive the very heaviest punishment possible.
0:02:19 > 0:02:21What did you think they did wrong?
0:02:21 > 0:02:26Well, I think they...
0:02:26 > 0:02:30I mean, I may be able to just say that we don't know yet exactly
0:02:30 > 0:02:35what went wrong and perhaps my words are assuming wrong-doing.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37Perhaps, you know...
0:02:37 > 0:02:40They've got to be given a fair hearing and I did make the point
0:02:40 > 0:02:43that there has to be an investigation, and the insolvency
0:02:43 > 0:02:46service will do that.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49But I think that certainly, over the last 18 months or so,
0:02:49 > 0:02:54large dividends and large bonuses were paid at a time when surely
0:02:54 > 0:03:01the Board must have been aware that they were having difficulties
0:03:01 > 0:03:06getting paid on time.
0:03:06 > 0:03:08They had a great deal of mounting debt and, obviously,
0:03:08 > 0:03:10they thought they could steer themselves out of it.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13In fact, the week before everything went wrong being finally,
0:03:13 > 0:03:20the share price was recovering.
0:03:20 > 0:03:23So even the market obviously thought they were going to survive.
0:03:23 > 0:03:26But it wasn't an environment in which they should be paying
0:03:26 > 0:03:29the bonuses they were paying and I think that they are culpable
0:03:29 > 0:03:30of that at the very least.
0:03:30 > 0:03:31All right.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34Howard Davies, this is a tricky one for you because you chair RBS
0:03:34 > 0:03:37and you were very much involved in this and stopped loaning them
0:03:37 > 0:03:38money at some point.
0:03:38 > 0:03:40But what's your answer to the question, which was -
0:03:40 > 0:03:43who should be held accountable and what action should
0:03:43 > 0:03:44should they face?
0:03:44 > 0:03:47Well, Margot's right that it is the directors who must be
0:03:47 > 0:03:47ultimately responsible.
0:03:47 > 0:03:49But she's also right to say that we shouldn't
0:03:49 > 0:03:52jump to the conclusions about whether they are guilty
0:03:52 > 0:03:54of some kind of criminal offence or fraud or anything.
0:03:54 > 0:04:01What you have to look at is whether they were properly
0:04:01 > 0:04:04representing the financial position of the company, and the
0:04:04 > 0:04:08Financial Conduct Authority is investigating that.
0:04:08 > 0:04:12In other words, when they made their profits warnings etc,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15did they properly describe the position of the company in a way
0:04:15 > 0:04:17that market investors and borrowers and others
0:04:17 > 0:04:18could properly understand.
0:04:18 > 0:04:20You mean they could be pulling the wool over
0:04:20 > 0:04:22the Government's eyes all the time?
0:04:22 > 0:04:23Both governments?
0:04:23 > 0:04:25...not necessarily the Government, but it could have been
0:04:25 > 0:04:28the Government, but it would also have included shareholders.
0:04:28 > 0:04:30I mean, were they accurate in describing the financial
0:04:30 > 0:04:31position of the company?
0:04:31 > 0:04:33That is the main question that needs to be asked.
0:04:33 > 0:04:34OK.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36There's a lot of questions on this.
0:04:36 > 0:04:38The woman there in the middle, yes.
0:04:38 > 0:04:40We're looking at what went wrong with the company,
0:04:40 > 0:04:44but my question is more - why did Chris Grayling award
0:04:44 > 0:04:47them billion pound contracts after there had been a profits
0:04:47 > 0:04:51warning and a drop in share price.
0:04:51 > 0:04:54OK.
0:04:54 > 0:04:56That's the question that we want to know.
0:04:56 > 0:04:57OK.
0:04:57 > 0:05:00Andy Burnham.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03Well I think absolutely that's the question, isn't it?
0:05:03 > 0:05:07The question the Government has to answer - why they gave
0:05:07 > 0:05:11the company, not just that contract, I think three other major
0:05:11 > 0:05:15contracts after profits warnings had been issued.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17So there are big questions for the Government to answer.
0:05:17 > 0:05:19Margot and Howard are right, of course the directors,
0:05:19 > 0:05:20the senior management.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23When did it become acceptable for people to pay themselves sky
0:05:23 > 0:05:27high salaries while pushing companies to the brink and putting
0:05:27 > 0:05:30thousands of people's jobs at risk?
0:05:30 > 0:05:35When did that become acceptable?
0:05:35 > 0:05:37APPLAUSE
0:05:37 > 0:05:40So I would say the company needs to be held accountable
0:05:40 > 0:05:42to answer the question, the Government does too,
0:05:42 > 0:05:45but actually, let's be honest, all politicians too because we've
0:05:45 > 0:05:49allowed a situation to develop here where people can behave in this way.
0:05:49 > 0:05:53Where they can pay themselves these performance related exorbitant
0:05:53 > 0:05:56salaries and bonuses while basically stripping away the security
0:05:56 > 0:05:59of people working in those companies day-to-day.
0:05:59 > 0:06:01The whole culture is wrong.
0:06:01 > 0:06:04We've all allowed it to grow over the years and it
0:06:04 > 0:06:08now needs to change.
0:06:08 > 0:06:14APPLAUSE
0:06:14 > 0:06:14The woman there. Yes, you.
0:06:14 > 0:06:16We're asking why the Government carried on supporting Carillion
0:06:16 > 0:06:19and giving them contracts, could it possibly be
0:06:19 > 0:06:22that our government and our civil servants are so distracted by Brexit
0:06:22 > 0:06:26that they weren't actually keeping their eye on the ball?
0:06:26 > 0:06:32Right. Dustin, what do you think?
0:06:32 > 0:06:35Well, that's a big question I have on a lot of issues.
0:06:35 > 0:06:38Let me be clear, I'm here from the United States of America,
0:06:38 > 0:06:41I didn't get to vote on Brexit.
0:06:41 > 0:06:43I'm here in this country because I fell in love
0:06:43 > 0:06:47and because I call it home, and I hope to raise a family here.
0:06:47 > 0:06:51So I really do give a damn about how this country does and time and again
0:06:51 > 0:06:54it seems like no-one's got their eye on the ball.
0:06:54 > 0:06:58Who's at the wheel of the ship?
0:06:58 > 0:07:00Who is - and I love the audience member who used
0:07:00 > 0:07:01the word "accountability."
0:07:01 > 0:07:04I think, at the point at which government says -
0:07:04 > 0:07:07we are going to take these programmes private, you can't keep
0:07:07 > 0:07:09blaming the private company.
0:07:09 > 0:07:10Private companies are built on profit.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12That's what they're supposed to do.
0:07:12 > 0:07:14They're supposed to make a profit.
0:07:14 > 0:07:16Well, that's not what the state is supposed to do.
0:07:16 > 0:07:18That's not what the Government is supposed to do.
0:07:18 > 0:07:26The Government is supposed to be looking out for the people, for you.
0:07:27 > 0:07:29APPLAUSE
0:07:29 > 0:07:30OK.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33So when I hear accountability I say - go to the Government who gave
0:07:33 > 0:07:34this company these jobs.
0:07:34 > 0:07:37Make sure they knew how many jobs they were giving this company.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41How many eggs did they put in that basket?
0:07:41 > 0:07:44Were they keeping a close enough eye, with so much going on,
0:07:44 > 0:07:47to make sure they didn't do something that was going to help
0:07:47 > 0:07:52the fortunes of a few and hurt your family.
0:07:52 > 0:07:53The Government is accountable.
0:07:53 > 0:07:55Munira, I'll come to you.
0:07:55 > 0:07:57But do you want to just answer him, just briefly?
0:07:57 > 0:07:58Yes.
0:07:58 > 0:08:02I mean, I think what I would say to that is that government does not
0:08:02 > 0:08:05have a monopoly on the skills it takes to deliver complex public
0:08:05 > 0:08:09services well at all.
0:08:09 > 0:08:13The voluntary sector has a role, the private-sector has a role and,
0:08:13 > 0:08:18yes, the Government has a role and we want the best of British
0:08:18 > 0:08:21talent engaged in this pursuit and you don't get that by being too
0:08:21 > 0:08:26dictatorial about whether we should all be private or it
0:08:26 > 0:08:27should all be public.
0:08:27 > 0:08:31It should be a mix.
0:08:31 > 0:08:34Carillion has shed loads of stuff given to it,
0:08:34 > 0:08:37not just by your government, by the Labour government as well.
0:08:37 > 0:08:38That is true.
0:08:38 > 0:08:43There are several large companies that are capable of taking on big
0:08:43 > 0:08:45contracts and Carillion was one of them.
0:08:45 > 0:08:49But I would take issue with people who feel that somehow the Government
0:08:49 > 0:08:50is at fault for giving them the business.
0:08:50 > 0:08:54I mean, the Government has been aware of issues at Carillion and has
0:08:54 > 0:08:57taken a very close view on all of these big companies
0:08:57 > 0:09:05and has been engaged in contingency planning for quite some time.
0:09:08 > 0:09:11What do you mean "contingency planning", by giving them contracts,
0:09:11 > 0:09:13like Grayling was mentioned, giving them the contract...
0:09:13 > 0:09:14What contingency planning was there?
0:09:14 > 0:09:15I will answer your question.
0:09:15 > 0:09:16Make the point again.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18You know, where's the due diligence?
0:09:18 > 0:09:21I have to question whether Chris Grayling was actually acting
0:09:21 > 0:09:25on behalf of the taxpayers or the shareholders.
0:09:25 > 0:09:27That's what you're left questioning.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30I can answer that.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33Let Margot just briefly finish her answer.
0:09:33 > 0:09:36What I would answer is, Chris Grayling is absolutely acting
0:09:36 > 0:09:40in the interests of taxpayers.
0:09:40 > 0:09:44And what I was about to say was, the due diligence was really
0:09:44 > 0:09:47carefully controlled when the Government identified
0:09:47 > 0:09:49the need to have joint ventures bidding for these contracts.
0:09:49 > 0:09:52So that if there was a failure, at least there's another
0:09:52 > 0:09:55company of sufficient size.
0:09:55 > 0:09:57And all those contracts that you're talking about,
0:09:57 > 0:09:59certainly in the last year, the big ones have all been
0:09:59 > 0:10:02with other companies involved as well, who are now going to take
0:10:02 > 0:10:04up the responsibility of delivering.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07So you're not saying nobody is going to lose their job.
0:10:07 > 0:10:09No apprentice is going to be out of work.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11Nobody is going to be hurt by this collapse?
0:10:11 > 0:10:14I mean, I think the biggest detriment actually is going to be
0:10:14 > 0:10:16the SMEs, the small businesses in the supply chain
0:10:16 > 0:10:18of those big companies.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21Those are the people I think that, you know, if they had too much
0:10:21 > 0:10:24business with Carillion, I really do feel for them
0:10:24 > 0:10:27because it will be very, very difficult for them.
0:10:27 > 0:10:30Look, the jobs will be there to be done, they'll just be done
0:10:30 > 0:10:31for another company.
0:10:31 > 0:10:32Munira.
0:10:32 > 0:10:34I think the original question, which is, who should
0:10:34 > 0:10:35be held to account?
0:10:35 > 0:10:37Really, who is to blame for this happening?
0:10:37 > 0:10:42Clearly, the managers at Carillion messed up and there were decisions
0:10:42 > 0:10:45made in government which I think should be investigated
0:10:45 > 0:10:47and questioned.
0:10:47 > 0:10:50But there is a bigger problem that's been revealed
0:10:50 > 0:10:53by the collapse of Carillion, which is about how government
0:10:53 > 0:10:55procurement has been working for the past 20 years,
0:10:55 > 0:10:58and the fact that the public finance initiatives,
0:10:58 > 0:11:04public-private parnerships have been dysfunctional for a long time.
0:11:04 > 0:11:10The companies like Carillion, Carillion is not the only one
0:11:10 > 0:11:12which have been limping along, with very poor management,
0:11:12 > 0:11:14that have been effectively propped up by the state.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17They have been given contracts which really they were not
0:11:17 > 0:11:18equipped to deliver, they weren't delivering
0:11:18 > 0:11:20quality services.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23And this isn't an argument against privatisation, I'm not
0:11:23 > 0:11:31dogmattic about whether we use private companies, I've been
0:11:31 > 0:11:33involved in public procurement and very often private companies
0:11:33 > 0:11:35bring specialist expertise, they're are very efficient,
0:11:35 > 0:11:43they can be cheaper to use than doing things inhouse.
0:11:45 > 0:11:47So I don't have sa kind of ideological opposition to using
0:11:47 > 0:11:48private companies.
0:11:48 > 0:11:51But I think that government has allowed this very mediocre sector
0:11:51 > 0:11:54of companies to grow up around it and what we really need
0:11:54 > 0:11:56is for government to have a completely different
0:11:56 > 0:11:58mind-set, a much more robust, much more insistent
0:11:58 > 0:12:00on innovation, on efficiency.
0:12:00 > 0:12:02In fact that's what happened with Carillion.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04In the last year, because government got better at negotiating
0:12:04 > 0:12:07its contracts, Carillion stopped making as much profit
0:12:07 > 0:12:10as it was used to and, in a way, something went right.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13A company was finally exposed for being very weak.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16It's no comfort to the people who work for Carillion or the small
0:12:16 > 0:12:19businesses that have relied on it, but it does show that it's important
0:12:19 > 0:12:24to put these companies under greater scrutiny.
0:12:24 > 0:12:27OK, the man with the beard in the middle there.
0:12:27 > 0:12:28You, sir.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31Hasn't Carillion given a lot of money to the Conservative Party?
0:12:31 > 0:12:35I don't know what the exact amount is, but I think that's why Carillion
0:12:35 > 0:12:38wasn't allowed to fail, was it, because it been giving
0:12:38 > 0:12:40a bung to the Tory party, that's why it's not been
0:12:40 > 0:12:43allowed to fail.
0:12:43 > 0:12:46Is that so Andy Burnham, have you heard that?
0:12:46 > 0:12:51Well, there are connections between the two.
0:12:51 > 0:12:54I'm not coming on to try and score points and say that -
0:12:54 > 0:12:57oh, this means that they must have done special favours for Carillion.
0:12:57 > 0:13:01All I would say is I think - Munira said it - I think there must
0:13:01 > 0:13:03be a full investigation and those questions have to be asked.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06I was going to come back to the question from the woman
0:13:06 > 0:13:09over there who said, you know why was the
0:13:09 > 0:13:10due diligence done.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12The question I would ask was, were they actually trying to prop
0:13:12 > 0:13:14this company up by giving these extra contracts?
0:13:14 > 0:13:16It looked a little like that to me.
0:13:16 > 0:13:20So I think we have to have a full process here where we turn
0:13:20 > 0:13:21over all of the stones.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24We look at all of the contact between ministers and the company
0:13:24 > 0:13:28so that we can get to the bottom of this because we are going to need
0:13:28 > 0:13:31to learn to put changes in place and move forward in a different
0:13:31 > 0:13:32way after this.
0:13:32 > 0:13:34So how Howard Davies the allegation that Andy is making
0:13:34 > 0:13:37is that the Government deliberately propped up Carillion even though
0:13:37 > 0:13:40they knew it was in difficulties to see if they could keep it going.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42Do you think there's any truth in that?
0:13:42 > 0:13:43Is that how government works?
0:13:43 > 0:13:45I find that difficult.
0:13:45 > 0:13:46I would be surprised slightly if that was the case.
0:13:46 > 0:13:47I can't answer that.
0:13:47 > 0:13:51What I can say is that it seems fairly clear that the problems
0:13:51 > 0:13:54that the company had arose primarily from the big construction contracts,
0:13:54 > 0:13:59not from the normal provision of sort of subcontracted services,
0:13:59 > 0:14:02where we get people to go and deliver our catering for us.
0:14:02 > 0:14:05You know, it wasn't that, it was that they took on contracts
0:14:05 > 0:14:07under the Private Finance Initiative, and here I think Munira
0:14:07 > 0:14:09is right on the button.
0:14:09 > 0:14:12I think the Private Finance Initiative has been a fraud
0:14:12 > 0:14:14on the people because essentially the Government is always
0:14:14 > 0:14:19the cheapest borrower.
0:14:19 > 0:14:22The Government can borrow money more cheaply than anybody else.
0:14:22 > 0:14:24And therefore if you are going to hand over the total provision
0:14:24 > 0:14:27of a big hospital to somebody who's borrowing costs are going
0:14:27 > 0:14:30to be higher than yours, what is the advantage of doing that?
0:14:30 > 0:14:33Unless you are absolutely certain they are going to be more efficient.
0:14:33 > 0:14:36If you think they are going to be efficient why not give them
0:14:36 > 0:14:37a fixed price contract?
0:14:37 > 0:14:39Why hand over the whole thing?
0:14:39 > 0:14:43I think PFI has been a fraud and there is an interesting report
0:14:43 > 0:14:48by the National Audit Office today which shows just how much we have
0:14:48 > 0:14:52paid for the privilege of getting a Private Finance Initiative,
0:14:52 > 0:14:55which was designed to take stuff off the government's balance sheet
0:14:55 > 0:14:58so the government could pretend it was doing more in the way of
0:14:58 > 0:15:00public services than it really was.
0:15:00 > 0:15:05This was John Major.
0:15:05 > 0:15:10But, Howard, if you are right, John Major began this,
0:15:10 > 0:15:12Gordon Brown did it, supercharged it, and it's
0:15:12 > 0:15:14been going ever since.
0:15:14 > 0:15:16Why did nobody say what you're saying at the time?
0:15:16 > 0:15:18People have for a long time complain...
0:15:18 > 0:15:21You did some, didn't you?
0:15:21 > 0:15:23People were saying things.
0:15:23 > 0:15:25Howard is right.
0:15:25 > 0:15:28Let's go back to how this began.
0:15:28 > 0:15:31The old ways of building public infrastructure had not worked
0:15:31 > 0:15:34so by the early 90s the country had crumbling infrastructure.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37So Howard is right, the Treasury wanted a way
0:15:37 > 0:15:39of building a lot without it being on the balance sheet.
0:15:39 > 0:15:40Why didn't they want it...
0:15:40 > 0:15:44People say this, on the balance sheet.
0:15:44 > 0:15:47You didn't want to look as though you are borrowing?
0:15:47 > 0:15:49If the government was borrowing too much and they feared...
0:15:49 > 0:15:53Yes.
0:15:53 > 0:16:01It began under Major but continued under the Labour government
0:16:02 > 0:16:04and I can remember being the minister,
0:16:04 > 0:16:07where there is a need to rebuild hospitals and for us it was not
0:16:07 > 0:16:11a choice of a PFI hospital or a public hospital, it was a PFI
0:16:11 > 0:16:12hospital or no hospital.
0:16:12 > 0:16:14In those circumstances obviously we had hospitals that
0:16:14 > 0:16:15were not up to standard.
0:16:15 > 0:16:16Schools with leaking roofs.
0:16:16 > 0:16:18As ministers we were working in that climate.
0:16:18 > 0:16:21I look at it now and they were not all bad deals, by the way.
0:16:21 > 0:16:24Some of them produced facilities that have provided better services
0:16:24 > 0:16:26for the public in those communities since they were built.
0:16:26 > 0:16:30Many of them were poor value for money and that is why I say
0:16:30 > 0:16:32the time has come to draw a line and move forward.
0:16:32 > 0:16:37Can I just answer that?
0:16:37 > 0:16:38You were in government all that time.
0:16:38 > 0:16:43There was nobody decreeing you could not build
0:16:43 > 0:16:48hospitals in the traditional Treasury financed way.
0:16:48 > 0:16:50That was a decision your Chancellor took.
0:16:50 > 0:16:54When Gordon Brown got his hands on this PFI initiative,
0:16:54 > 0:16:56which was judiciously used under the Major government, I might say.
0:16:56 > 0:16:58And then ran riot with it.
0:16:58 > 0:16:59You never objected to it.
0:16:59 > 0:17:00Nobody ever objected to it.
0:17:00 > 0:17:01Well, we changed it.
0:17:01 > 0:17:02You didn't object to it.
0:17:02 > 0:17:03I've got figures there.
0:17:03 > 0:17:05You can see the graph.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08The dramatic decline.
0:17:08 > 0:17:13Both parties are to blame because we came into a position
0:17:13 > 0:17:16in 1997, more than half of the NHS predated the NHS itself.
0:17:16 > 0:17:23It was so old, it was crumbling, so it had to be rebuilt.
0:17:23 > 0:17:26The question that Howard Davies has put - he said why couldn't
0:17:26 > 0:17:28you have borrowed the money?
0:17:28 > 0:17:30Gordon Brown was very proud about his record on borrowing
0:17:30 > 0:17:31and that was an obsession.
0:17:31 > 0:17:35It was about getting rid of the old way where people
0:17:35 > 0:17:39were waiting for hospitals to be delivered, there was a long queue
0:17:39 > 0:17:41and a history of projects overrunning and costing
0:17:41 > 0:17:43more than they said they were going to cost.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45That's where it grew from.
0:17:45 > 0:17:48That was the time we were living through and it's right to learn
0:17:48 > 0:17:49lessons from that, surely.
0:17:49 > 0:17:50After how many years?
0:17:50 > 0:17:54The woman in white.
0:17:54 > 0:17:56I'm a bit concerned you're talking about all these big governments.
0:17:56 > 0:17:59What about the people at the bottom of the pile?
0:17:59 > 0:18:01The people doing the cleaning in the hospitals, people
0:18:01 > 0:18:02providing the food?
0:18:02 > 0:18:04They have lost their jobs, some of them.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07And it is hard to get another job.
0:18:07 > 0:18:11How are you going to address all of those people who have
0:18:11 > 0:18:14lost their jobs when they could go back to the NHS and the NHS
0:18:14 > 0:18:18could take over quite successfully as they did before?
0:18:18 > 0:18:20We often find private companies do not give us
0:18:20 > 0:18:22the service that the NHS did.
0:18:22 > 0:18:25We don't get food at night, as nurses.
0:18:25 > 0:18:25There is no canteen.
0:18:25 > 0:18:26The cleaning.
0:18:26 > 0:18:32They have different people.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34Whereas in the old NHS, they did have people proud
0:18:34 > 0:18:36of their job and they did it well.
0:18:36 > 0:18:38I feel concerned we are talking about the higher
0:18:38 > 0:18:40level and forgetting the common people.
0:18:40 > 0:18:44APPLAUSE
0:18:44 > 0:18:48Can you briefly explain your experience of this.
0:18:48 > 0:18:49You work in the NHS?
0:18:49 > 0:18:50Yes.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53I mean, years ago there was food 24 hours a day.
0:18:53 > 0:18:54There isn't now.
0:18:54 > 0:18:56You talk about obese nurses.
0:18:56 > 0:18:58The government are clamping down on this.
0:18:58 > 0:19:0240% of obese nurses.
0:19:02 > 0:19:05Actually we cannot get hold of decent food because there isn't
0:19:05 > 0:19:06any when we are on shift.
0:19:06 > 0:19:07Because the service...
0:19:07 > 0:19:08There is no service.
0:19:08 > 0:19:09OK, the man there.
0:19:09 > 0:19:13You, sir.
0:19:13 > 0:19:16I think it is disgusting to hear party politics blaming each other.
0:19:16 > 0:19:21The whole thing about Carillion was, a few years back, governments used
0:19:21 > 0:19:25to put out contracts to lots of little people,
0:19:25 > 0:19:33organisations, and then they made a decision to make it more effective
0:19:33 > 0:19:36to just put out a contract to one body or a few bodies.
0:19:36 > 0:19:37That is what has happened.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40Carillion is made up of a lot of individual small companies that
0:19:40 > 0:19:44were brought together and it was the company,
0:19:44 > 0:19:47it was Andy Burnham and you, madam, that together you are equally
0:19:47 > 0:19:51to blame and I think it is disgusting to hear you arguing
0:19:51 > 0:19:53when you should get together and really look at your policies
0:19:53 > 0:19:56and do something about it.
0:19:56 > 0:20:02APPLAUSE.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04I think you have made a spot-on point
0:20:04 > 0:20:11because what has happened, the PFI, the privatisation mantra
0:20:11 > 0:20:14was about trying to introduce more entrepreneurial thinking,
0:20:14 > 0:20:22more innovation, more competition, so you would not have the statement
0:20:33 > 0:20:34- state monopolies that were inefficient.
0:20:34 > 0:20:37What has happened over the past 20 years, is that the state has
0:20:37 > 0:20:39simply recreated its image in the private sector.
0:20:39 > 0:20:41You have companies, large companies, that always bid
0:20:41 > 0:20:42for contracts, always win.
0:20:42 > 0:20:44The regulation they lobby for crowds out smaller
0:20:44 > 0:20:45businesses, new businesses.
0:20:45 > 0:20:47And you have not got the dynamic, competitive, innovative kind
0:20:47 > 0:20:49of services that you would hope for.
0:20:49 > 0:20:52I think that is the racket that needs to be revealed.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54Do you think that Carillion wins on price,
0:20:54 > 0:20:55or on efficiency, or on quality?
0:20:55 > 0:20:56What does it win on?
0:20:56 > 0:21:01I think you can have large companies that offer economies of scale.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04But, too often, they are given the deal because they are the lowest
0:21:04 > 0:21:09bid and I do not think the public sector should always give
0:21:09 > 0:21:10the contract to the cheapest bid.
0:21:10 > 0:21:12Think about value for money, for quality.
0:21:12 > 0:21:15They should think about how it treats its workers.
0:21:15 > 0:21:17It should think about how innovative, how
0:21:17 > 0:21:19productive a service is.
0:21:19 > 0:21:21And for too long Carillion had survived...
0:21:21 > 0:21:23Corruption at our highest level in government.
0:21:23 > 0:21:26The government should look at itself and get rid of that image.
0:21:26 > 0:21:32All right, the man here.
0:21:32 > 0:21:37As a start, I think the process of PFI is deceitful because in many
0:21:37 > 0:21:40ways it is simply concealing the amount the government
0:21:40 > 0:21:44is borrowing and putting up with a huge additional cost,
0:21:44 > 0:21:48because there are a lot of people in the chain of events,
0:21:48 > 0:21:51not just from the point of view of building, but once it is built
0:21:51 > 0:21:54you have then got to run the place and there are fixed costs
0:21:54 > 0:21:58for so many of these items, which leaves for instance the NHS
0:21:58 > 0:22:00in Hereford short of money, which it could and should
0:22:00 > 0:22:03be spending on nurses and their food and their wages.
0:22:03 > 0:22:04What are they spending it on instead?
0:22:04 > 0:22:09They are spending it on the PFI contract which is so generous.
0:22:09 > 0:22:13Andy said earlier there was a choice of a PFI hospital or no hospital.
0:22:13 > 0:22:18I think that is ridiculous because if they can afford to rent
0:22:18 > 0:22:21a hospital for the next 30 years on a fixed price, inflation linked
0:22:21 > 0:22:26contract, it would have been so much cheaper for the government to simply
0:22:26 > 0:22:29borrow the money at, as Howard said, a much lower rate and then it
0:22:29 > 0:22:31would have been able to afford the other things we
0:22:31 > 0:22:33presently cannot afford.
0:22:33 > 0:22:36I agree with you and I was saying the choice we were given
0:22:36 > 0:22:37was the wrong choice.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40We should not have been told PFI or no hospital.
0:22:40 > 0:22:41Who told you that?
0:22:41 > 0:22:42That was the Treasury.
0:22:42 > 0:22:43Treasury officials have never liked PFI.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45I was a Treasury official myself.
0:22:45 > 0:22:47They never liked PFI.
0:22:47 > 0:22:48There would have been many instances where there
0:22:48 > 0:22:49was no other alternative.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51I am just telling you, that was my experience
0:22:51 > 0:22:57of being in government at that particular time.
0:22:57 > 0:23:00Howard Davies says he had never heard, and he was deputy governor
0:23:00 > 0:23:01of the Bank of England.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03There wasn't the capital budget enough to go around
0:23:03 > 0:23:04and build every hospital.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07Who told you you had to do it that way, was it your Chancellor
0:23:07 > 0:23:10of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown, or was it the Treasury?
0:23:10 > 0:23:11It was both.
0:23:11 > 0:23:13It was Gordon Brown and the Treasury policy.
0:23:13 > 0:23:14That was the world we were living...
0:23:14 > 0:23:17To come back to the gentleman's point, you are right.
0:23:17 > 0:23:18Both parties are to blame here.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20The lady was right.
0:23:20 > 0:23:22The idea that cleaners and porters...
0:23:22 > 0:23:25Everybody is right now!
0:23:25 > 0:23:28I am just going to explain were then separated away
0:23:28 > 0:23:30from the team on the ward.
0:23:30 > 0:23:33I want to make a point I did as Health Secretary.
0:23:33 > 0:23:36I changed Labour policy on outsourcing in 2009 to make
0:23:36 > 0:23:38the public NHS the preferred provider, because I had lived
0:23:38 > 0:23:41through those years, Howard, I had been through those years
0:23:41 > 0:23:44and I myself couldn't support it any more.
0:23:44 > 0:23:51So when I had the chance, I said the public NHS should be
0:23:51 > 0:23:53the provider of services and I got cold shouldered by many people
0:23:53 > 0:23:56in government at that time because that is what I believed
0:23:56 > 0:24:00and I still believe it and I think Jeremy Corbyn is right today to say
0:24:00 > 0:24:02the public sector should now be the default provider
0:24:02 > 0:24:04of public services.
0:24:04 > 0:24:12APPLAUSE
0:24:12 > 0:24:14My concern lies with the tens of thousands
0:24:14 > 0:24:16of small businesses
0:24:16 > 0:24:21that have been affected by this.
0:24:21 > 0:24:23As a small-business owner myself, albeit not affected by the Carillion
0:24:23 > 0:24:25liquidation, I know how hard it is.
0:24:25 > 0:24:26These small businesses employ people, these
0:24:26 > 0:24:31people have mortgages, they have families.
0:24:31 > 0:24:37I heard the other day some of these businesses are going to have to wait
0:24:37 > 0:24:39years before they find out before they've got recourse or compensation
0:24:39 > 0:24:41and that is disgusting.
0:24:41 > 0:24:45Why can we not have an instant decision, or at least not leave it
0:24:45 > 0:24:46years before businesses get their money?
0:24:46 > 0:24:48The banks have tried to do something.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50I don't want to just blow my own bank's trumpet,
0:24:50 > 0:24:53because the others have done the same, today, have announced
0:24:53 > 0:24:54a sizeable amount of money.
0:24:54 > 0:24:55In our case, 75 million.
0:24:55 > 0:24:57Santander have done about the same, I think.
0:24:57 > 0:25:01Of money that is available to support small businesses
0:25:01 > 0:25:05through a period when they are not going to get paid by Carillion.
0:25:05 > 0:25:08I think that is the least we can do in the circumstances
0:25:08 > 0:25:09and I hope that helps.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11That is good, that is really good.
0:25:11 > 0:25:13There is a point I want to make...
0:25:13 > 0:25:16How do you do that?
0:25:16 > 0:25:24You're lenders anyway.
0:25:25 > 0:25:27We will give people, we will increase people's overdrafts.
0:25:27 > 0:25:30We will lengthen the terms of their loans, we will allow them
0:25:30 > 0:25:33to invoice, factoring a whole variety of things, we will do,
0:25:33 > 0:25:37which will allow them to keep in business and not to have to go
0:25:37 > 0:25:38under because Carillion are not paying.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41It is a change of policy for the Royal Bank of Scotland,
0:25:41 > 0:25:43because they used to love basket cases.
0:25:43 > 0:25:44LAUGHTER.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47They used to say you can make money out of people
0:25:47 > 0:25:48who are in real trouble.
0:25:48 > 0:25:50You cannot resist a cheap shot, David, can you?
0:25:50 > 0:25:51APPLAUSE
0:25:51 > 0:25:53I'm quoting a Treasury Select Committee, I am
0:25:53 > 0:25:55not using a cheap shot.
0:25:55 > 0:25:57It was before you were chairman.
0:25:57 > 0:26:00But - rope, sometimes you need to let customers hang
0:26:00 > 0:26:02themselves, the Royal Bank of Scotland said.
0:26:02 > 0:26:04JEERING.
0:26:04 > 0:26:07That is extremely, extremely embarrassing.
0:26:07 > 0:26:12I mean it seriously.
0:26:12 > 0:26:15It is humiliating when I discovered that had been said in 2009.
0:26:15 > 0:26:17You wonder where to put yourself.
0:26:17 > 0:26:21I hope we have changed the culture now.
0:26:21 > 0:26:23Now you're lending how many million?
0:26:23 > 0:26:2475?
0:26:24 > 0:26:2775.
0:26:27 > 0:26:30This is a specific pot for small businesses who are in trouble.
0:26:30 > 0:26:35Howard Davies, RBS, you have said it here on Question Time.
0:26:35 > 0:26:36Queue up afterwards.
0:26:36 > 0:26:37Yes?
0:26:37 > 0:26:38Briefly, yes.
0:26:38 > 0:26:44I wanted to ask Howard, one of the tragedies of this
0:26:44 > 0:26:46is the smaller building companies, even those with good long track
0:26:46 > 0:26:52records, cannot get normal finance.
0:26:52 > 0:26:56And the government have made some steps in order to guarantee loan
0:26:56 > 0:27:00facility and that sort of thing, but what can we do with banks to get
0:27:00 > 0:27:04building companies of a smaller size to be able to get the credit
0:27:04 > 0:27:06in order to compete more effectively in this market?
0:27:06 > 0:27:10Goodness me, Carillion had the credit but the smaller SMEs
0:27:10 > 0:27:13in that sector fight like hell to get credit and
0:27:13 > 0:27:14they cannot get it.
0:27:14 > 0:27:19OK.
0:27:19 > 0:27:22We will leave that hanging because we must go on because we have got
0:27:22 > 0:27:23many other questions.
0:27:23 > 0:27:27Just before we take another one, we are going to be in Dumfries next
0:27:27 > 0:27:33week and the week after that, we are going to be in Grantham.
0:27:33 > 0:27:33week and the week after that, we are going to be in Grantham.
0:27:33 > 0:27:37If you want to make a note of how to get to the programme,
0:27:37 > 0:27:39there is a telephone number and the e-mail address
0:27:39 > 0:27:40of how to get to us.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42Let's take this question from Antonia Hastings.
0:27:42 > 0:27:45I wonder if you have changed your name by deed poll
0:27:45 > 0:27:47to ask this question, Antonia.
0:27:47 > 0:27:49I deny that, David.
0:27:49 > 0:27:51OK, let's hear the question and I will leave it
0:27:51 > 0:27:52to the audience to decide.
0:27:52 > 0:27:55Is £44 million good value for the loan of the Bayeux tapestry,
0:27:55 > 0:27:59or is it the stitch-up?
0:27:59 > 0:28:02APPLAUSE
0:28:02 > 0:28:05Very good.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08Munira.
0:28:08 > 0:28:11I am pleased that the Bayeux tapestry is coming and it is
0:28:11 > 0:28:16exciting and wonderful.
0:28:16 > 0:28:19And clearly Macron is very pleased about his grand Napoleonic gesture,
0:28:19 > 0:28:21which he likes to do.
0:28:21 > 0:28:23In terms of the serious business of paying towards the border
0:28:23 > 0:28:27security at Calais, it is right the UK contributes.
0:28:27 > 0:28:32It clearly is an issue for us as well as France.
0:28:32 > 0:28:36Like many of these things it is about cooperation.
0:28:36 > 0:28:41What is interesting about today is it shows we can have
0:28:41 > 0:28:45cooperation and friendship with our allies in Europe.
0:28:45 > 0:28:49We don't have to be a member of the European Union.
0:28:49 > 0:28:55I did support Brexit and I would like us to continue
0:28:55 > 0:28:57with that relationship, and I think £44 million
0:28:57 > 0:28:58is a reasonable amount.
0:28:58 > 0:29:01It's not the first time we've paid towards security at Calais.
0:29:01 > 0:29:04I think we spent about £100 million in the last three years.
0:29:04 > 0:29:06So I think it's right that we do that.
0:29:06 > 0:29:08OK. Dustin?
0:29:08 > 0:29:13Well, I think it's wonderful that we're going to be able to share art.
0:29:13 > 0:29:17I'm an artist, I can't wait to see it.
0:29:17 > 0:29:21But I also think that folks in this country need to get used to paying
0:29:21 > 0:29:23these sorts of amounts and more.
0:29:23 > 0:29:27I didn't have an opportunity to vote on Brexit, but clearly now
0:29:27 > 0:29:30there are going to have to be these unilateral relationships
0:29:30 > 0:29:32between different countries that you didn't used to have
0:29:32 > 0:29:35to do that with.
0:29:35 > 0:29:38We're going to have to see this country reach out and create these
0:29:38 > 0:29:42relationships and these friendships with other countries and the price
0:29:42 > 0:29:44tag is likely going to be very high.
0:29:44 > 0:29:48I don't know if we've answered the question yet in the negotiations
0:29:48 > 0:29:51of whether these new price tags are going to be worth it.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54I'm very curious to see what this deal is going
0:29:54 > 0:29:56to look like with Brexit.
0:29:56 > 0:30:01I hope, as someone who is going to call this home,
0:30:01 > 0:30:02that it's a very good deal.
0:30:02 > 0:30:06But I'm going to be equally shocked if it is, I have to say,
0:30:06 > 0:30:07the way things are going.
0:30:07 > 0:30:08APPLAUSE
0:30:08 > 0:30:10Yes.
0:30:10 > 0:30:14I'll leave it here and get very controversial for just a second.
0:30:14 > 0:30:19I hope that once this deal is done, and I say go and make a deal.
0:30:19 > 0:30:22I want there to be a good deal if we have to do this,
0:30:22 > 0:30:25but if the deal is a stinker, let the people have a voice.
0:30:25 > 0:30:28APPLAUSE
0:30:28 > 0:30:33OK.
0:30:33 > 0:30:36Back to the Bayeux Tapestry and £44 million.
0:30:36 > 0:30:39You.
0:30:39 > 0:30:41I'm just wondering what we should lend to France in exchange,
0:30:41 > 0:30:45perhaps a DVD of The Darkest Hour.
0:30:45 > 0:30:49My answer is we should give them Arsene Wenger,
0:30:49 > 0:30:51it would be very popular are referees.
0:30:51 > 0:30:56Howard Davies.
0:30:56 > 0:31:00Well, I think that we have to make a contribution in Calais.
0:31:00 > 0:31:03I think probably, perhaps because I sort of read the French
0:31:03 > 0:31:06press from time to time, I think people in this country don't
0:31:06 > 0:31:14quite understand how serious an issue the problem in Calais has
0:31:17 > 0:31:20been for the French and that area, around Calais, has been a very
0:31:20 > 0:31:22strong National Front area and that's partly
0:31:22 > 0:31:23because of the existence of the camps.
0:31:23 > 0:31:26It was called The Jungle.
0:31:26 > 0:31:29We can say, you know, that's not our fault,
0:31:29 > 0:31:31but actually the UK has been the magnet and that's what's been
0:31:31 > 0:31:36pulling people there.
0:31:36 > 0:31:40So I do think that if we want the French to keep the border
0:31:40 > 0:31:42on the other side, I think it's reasonable for them
0:31:42 > 0:31:44to expect us to make a contribution.
0:31:44 > 0:31:47The one thing I would add however is that it does seem to me
0:31:47 > 0:31:49that the whole problem of migration must be dealt with
0:31:49 > 0:31:51at European level.
0:31:51 > 0:31:53These are people who come in to one European country, often Italy,
0:31:53 > 0:31:56they get through to France and they want to come here.
0:31:56 > 0:31:59The ideaed that we can kind of deal with this just
0:31:59 > 0:32:01on our own seems implausible to me.
0:32:01 > 0:32:04I think there has to be a collective approach to the problem of economic
0:32:04 > 0:32:05migration into Europe.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08Do you think he played a blinder with the Bayeux Tapestry?
0:32:08 > 0:32:09Do you think that was expected?
0:32:09 > 0:32:12I think he is a very cute character, Macron.
0:32:12 > 0:32:14A cute character or acute?
0:32:14 > 0:32:19I think he's a great showman.
0:32:19 > 0:32:22Cute in the sense of, you know, thinking of smart little ideas.
0:32:22 > 0:32:27Many people say it's his wife actually who thinks up these ideas,
0:32:27 > 0:32:31but I wouldn't like to be certain about that.
0:32:31 > 0:32:34I think it's a good gesture and I think people feel good about it.
0:32:34 > 0:32:35OK.
0:32:35 > 0:32:36The woman down there.
0:32:36 > 0:32:39I think it's an absolute bargain, but I also think
0:32:39 > 0:32:41that Britain is feeling very small and very lonely
0:32:41 > 0:32:44and a little tiny island.
0:32:44 > 0:32:50We need all the friends we can possibly get.
0:32:50 > 0:32:51So, bring over the tapestry.
0:32:51 > 0:32:59We can send the Crown jewels back to Paris!
0:32:59 > 0:33:01I don't think the person who was seen on television holding
0:33:01 > 0:33:04them so tenderly would be very pleased about that.
0:33:04 > 0:33:09The man in pale blue there.
0:33:09 > 0:33:16Isn'tSeasoned the delivery of the tapestry really just a poke
0:33:16 > 0:33:18in the eye by Macron in advance of the negotiations
0:33:18 > 0:33:20in Brexit, in relation to the forthcoming
0:33:20 > 0:33:21trade negotiations?
0:33:21 > 0:33:23It's a poke in the eye?
0:33:23 > 0:33:24OK.
0:33:24 > 0:33:29Margot James.
0:33:29 > 0:33:32Oh, I think it's a wonderful gesture actually, I really look
0:33:32 > 0:33:33forward to seeing it.
0:33:33 > 0:33:41I mean, it is said to have been embroidered in Canterbury,
0:33:41 > 0:33:44so it's a moot point as to where its origins lie.
0:33:44 > 0:33:46I think it's a wonderful gesture anyway.
0:33:46 > 0:33:48I think the money is a necessary investment.
0:33:48 > 0:33:50I agree with Howard about the pressures on that part
0:33:50 > 0:33:53of northern France have been intense and we do need to
0:33:53 > 0:33:54make a contribution.
0:33:54 > 0:33:57The money will be spent, you know, on new technology,
0:33:57 > 0:33:59on state-of-the-art fencing.
0:33:59 > 0:34:03It's a sad situation.
0:34:03 > 0:34:08You're talking about a lot of human misery that has
0:34:08 > 0:34:10caused this whole issue, but I think British people
0:34:10 > 0:34:13are quite clear, we do need to control our borders and this
0:34:13 > 0:34:15is a very necessary investment in that process.
0:34:15 > 0:34:17Andy Burnham.
0:34:17 > 0:34:19If it was £44 million just for a tapestry,
0:34:19 > 0:34:23that clearly wouldn't be good value-for-money.
0:34:23 > 0:34:25I don't know whether 44 is the right figure, clearly the money,
0:34:25 > 0:34:28as Margot just said, does address a shared problem
0:34:28 > 0:34:30and the border in a Calais is a shared problem,
0:34:30 > 0:34:33as other panellists have said, and it's right to work with them.
0:34:33 > 0:34:36Maybe the £44 million therefore buys a better relationship,
0:34:36 > 0:34:38a thawing of relations, and I think we need a little
0:34:38 > 0:34:42bit of that, don't we?
0:34:42 > 0:34:46A bit less of the Johnson and Gove rhetoric and a bit more
0:34:46 > 0:34:53reaching out across the Channel and building those relationships.
0:34:54 > 0:34:56Maybe therefore that will get us, the 44, might help us
0:34:56 > 0:34:58get a more balanced, sensible Brexit where, yes,
0:34:58 > 0:35:01we must deal with the concerns the public expressed around free
0:35:01 > 0:35:04movement, but by doing that then maximise our access to the single
0:35:04 > 0:35:05market and to the customs union.
0:35:05 > 0:35:08One thing that worried me was to hear the former
0:35:08 > 0:35:12French Finance Minister on the radio this morning saying they may not now
0:35:12 > 0:35:14be so predatory about the City of London.
0:35:14 > 0:35:16What worries me about that is the whole thing
0:35:16 > 0:35:18is going to come to be
0:35:18 > 0:35:20about the City of London if we're not careful.
0:35:20 > 0:35:22We live in a London centric country.
0:35:22 > 0:35:25My great worry, as Mayor of Greater Manchester, is that we're
0:35:25 > 0:35:28going to end up with a London centric Brexit where it's
0:35:28 > 0:35:32all about protecting the City of London and other industries
0:35:32 > 0:35:35in the regions, well, they can pay the price.
0:35:35 > 0:35:39I can tell you now, that will not be acceptable to me and many other
0:35:39 > 0:35:40people in the north of England.
0:35:40 > 0:35:43We need to see a fair deal of all of our industries
0:35:43 > 0:35:44all over the country.
0:35:44 > 0:35:52As to what we might send back in return.
0:35:53 > 0:36:00I was just thinking about something that would fit in there,
0:36:00 > 0:36:06something that maybe likes a drink,
0:36:06 > 0:36:09the sound of his own voice, someone who's name my suggest French
0:36:09 > 0:36:12ancestry, let's send Nigel Farage back to France.
0:36:12 > 0:36:12APPLAUSE.
0:36:12 > 0:36:15Can I make a point as we're talking about this money to be
0:36:15 > 0:36:16spent on this border.
0:36:16 > 0:36:18Just as someone who isn't from here.
0:36:18 > 0:36:20I know this great country has some issues, who doesn't.
0:36:20 > 0:36:22You've got some things to figure out.
0:36:22 > 0:36:23Who doesn't.
0:36:23 > 0:36:27This country is a shining example of what is so good in so many ways.
0:36:27 > 0:36:28I want to applaud both parties.
0:36:28 > 0:36:32I'm not from either party, on the work you've done along wait
0:36:32 > 0:36:35for inclusion for acceptance of difference to make sure that
0:36:35 > 0:36:38some of the things I'm hearing my President back home say
0:36:38 > 0:36:39would not be acceptable.
0:36:39 > 0:36:41But understand that some of these people who are in Calais,
0:36:41 > 0:36:44trying to get here, they're not coming to try to steal
0:36:44 > 0:36:47from you or to ruin your culture, they're coming here because you are
0:36:47 > 0:36:49a giant, beautiful, beacon of hope for them.
0:36:49 > 0:36:52I hope that the Government finds it in their heart to spend some
0:36:52 > 0:36:55of that money to make sure that their conditions are liveable
0:36:55 > 0:36:58there and to let some of them in to share their goodness
0:36:58 > 0:36:59with your greatness.
0:36:59 > 0:37:00APPLAUSE
0:37:00 > 0:37:01Yeah, well said.
0:37:01 > 0:37:03Well said.
0:37:03 > 0:37:06Just before we leave this.
0:37:06 > 0:37:11Howard Davies, what do you think the threat to the financial industry
0:37:11 > 0:37:15in Britain is and what do you think about the way that the Brexit talks
0:37:15 > 0:37:17are going, from your standpoint as the Chairman of one
0:37:17 > 0:37:20of the big banks?
0:37:20 > 0:37:26The position is not particularly good because where we've got
0:37:26 > 0:37:29to is a notion that we should build on the Canada relationship
0:37:29 > 0:37:32there was Norway or whatever.
0:37:32 > 0:37:34Canada, the Canada deal with the European Union
0:37:34 > 0:37:36is basically about goods.
0:37:36 > 0:37:44It doesn't have any financial services or services components.
0:37:44 > 0:37:47So we would not get free trade in financial services
0:37:47 > 0:37:52out of a Canada deal.
0:37:52 > 0:37:55That's the proposition that's currently on the table.
0:37:55 > 0:37:57So I'm rather anxious about it and I hope
0:37:57 > 0:37:59that we can, over the next few
0:37:59 > 0:38:01months, that the Government will focus on building up
0:38:01 > 0:38:02from a Canada deal to include services.
0:38:02 > 0:38:05That's not just about financial services, but London's exports
0:38:05 > 0:38:07of cultural services, media, law etc are very, very
0:38:07 > 0:38:09important to the country as a whole.
0:38:09 > 0:38:12I'm more of a Mancunian than Andy Burnham is,
0:38:12 > 0:38:15who's a Scouser, really and so I'm not having someone being more
0:38:15 > 0:38:17Mancunian than me on this panel.
0:38:17 > 0:38:20This is not about London, this is about the fact that Britain
0:38:20 > 0:38:24is a big service exporting country, not just from London,
0:38:24 > 0:38:27and we've got to get a services deal as part of our negotiation.
0:38:27 > 0:38:30But we know that Macron wants to get as much
0:38:30 > 0:38:32of the banking as he can to Paris.
0:38:32 > 0:38:36We know the Germans would like to have it in Frankfurt.
0:38:36 > 0:38:39Do you think London will be able to defend its corner?
0:38:39 > 0:38:41The City, let me call that.
0:38:41 > 0:38:43I think London will remain the biggest financial centre,
0:38:43 > 0:38:45but I think that there will be some rebalancing within Europe.
0:38:45 > 0:38:47I think that's an inevitable consequence of Brexit,
0:38:47 > 0:38:48which I regret.
0:38:48 > 0:38:53But I think the task is to minimise that.
0:38:53 > 0:38:55The French Finance Chief was on the radio this morning saying
0:38:55 > 0:39:00that Brexit is not going to be the catastrophe that a lot of people
0:39:00 > 0:39:02predicted it would be for the City.
0:39:02 > 0:39:05I think what you're seeing in Macron is a President
0:39:05 > 0:39:06who knows how to negotiate.
0:39:06 > 0:39:07He's been very bullish.
0:39:07 > 0:39:09He's saying things like, we will steal your finance sector.
0:39:09 > 0:39:13Of course he is.
0:39:13 > 0:39:15That is exactly what you do when you represent your
0:39:15 > 0:39:16country in an negotiation.
0:39:16 > 0:39:19I would like the leaders of this country to also be confident,
0:39:19 > 0:39:22to also make clear that there are certain things we would
0:39:22 > 0:39:25like to see happen.
0:39:25 > 0:39:28If we are talking about what we would want to send back
0:39:28 > 0:39:30in return for the Bayeux Tapestry.
0:39:30 > 0:39:35I suggest we set back the Magna Carta which is about democracy.
0:39:35 > 0:39:42It's an artefact of historic importance to the world and it
0:39:42 > 0:39:44will remind the EU that the reason we're making this decision,
0:39:44 > 0:39:46that we're entering into these negotiations, is
0:39:46 > 0:39:52because a democratic vote was taken this country.
0:39:52 > 0:39:53APPLAUSE.
0:39:53 > 0:39:54The woman there, yes.
0:39:54 > 0:39:56I will then come to you.
0:39:56 > 0:39:57Yes.
0:39:57 > 0:39:59I'm wondering, we're talking about this £44 million bill
0:39:59 > 0:40:02for the tapestry and we're talking about it in terms of really smoozing
0:40:02 > 0:40:04up towards the trade negotiations for Brexit.
0:40:04 > 0:40:08So is it...
0:40:08 > 0:40:11Are you going to add that on to the price tag of Brexit, OK.
0:40:11 > 0:40:13Evidently it is related to it.
0:40:13 > 0:40:16You think that's the motive of it, do you?
0:40:16 > 0:40:19These people have already suggested that is part of the -
0:40:19 > 0:40:26No, let Margot answer it.
0:40:26 > 0:40:29..If you're not prepared to do that then can we know how many
0:40:29 > 0:40:33other little secret deals are going on that are called
0:40:33 > 0:40:36something else, but are actually - this is the price of Brexit.
0:40:36 > 0:40:38Margot, just briefly on that.
0:40:38 > 0:40:43Well, it isn't directly to do with Brexit.
0:40:43 > 0:40:51It's not just to do with the security at Calais either.
0:40:52 > 0:40:54There are other aspects of our mutal relationship with France.
0:40:54 > 0:40:56Obviously, but partly it's to do with that.
0:40:56 > 0:40:57Security.
0:40:57 > 0:41:00We interact with the French on so many levels, defence
0:41:00 > 0:41:02and security are key.
0:41:02 > 0:41:05Both countries are the predominant defence countries in terms of
0:41:05 > 0:41:13investment and spend across Europe.
0:41:17 > 0:41:20So we're working with the French with this money in northern
0:41:20 > 0:41:22Africa where there's a huge amount of terrorist threat.
0:41:22 > 0:41:24So it isn't just about security at Calais.
0:41:24 > 0:41:26It's also about trafficking, trying to prevent trafficking.
0:41:26 > 0:41:28So it's not really to do with Brexit.
0:41:28 > 0:41:31I don't think it's a back door deal, just to add very quickly.
0:41:31 > 0:41:34The British border has been in Calais for a number of years now.
0:41:34 > 0:41:36So we've actually had our border post in Calais.
0:41:36 > 0:41:39So the money is going to protect the British border.
0:41:39 > 0:41:41But I might just say, we should challenge the French back.
0:41:41 > 0:41:44I think they allow a fairly chaotic and unmanageable scene to develop
0:41:44 > 0:41:47in Calais where people are just left there trying to jump on transport.
0:41:47 > 0:41:48That isn't acceptable to me.
0:41:48 > 0:41:51They need to put things in place in Calais too.
0:41:51 > 0:41:53It shouldn't just be asking us to fund it.
0:41:53 > 0:41:56We need clearer commitments from the French to look after people
0:41:56 > 0:41:58properly on their side of the Channel.
0:41:58 > 0:42:00At the moment, I don't think they do that.
0:42:00 > 0:42:01Can I just clarify.
0:42:01 > 0:42:04I don't think that we should not be spending this,
0:42:04 > 0:42:07but I should think it should be called what it's called.
0:42:07 > 0:42:11You just want the sum to be added up really and be open.
0:42:11 > 0:42:12Yes.
0:42:12 > 0:42:13We must go on.
0:42:13 > 0:42:15We have 20 minutes left.
0:42:15 > 0:42:16We've got many other questions.
0:42:16 > 0:42:18We won't get through them all.
0:42:18 > 0:42:20But we have other questions to go through.
0:42:20 > 0:42:22Let's have a question from Wendy, please.
0:42:22 > 0:42:23What should the Government do about the haemorrhaging
0:42:23 > 0:42:25of nurses from the NHS.
0:42:25 > 0:42:28This is this week the head of the Royal College of Nursing said
0:42:28 > 0:42:30that the NHS is haemorrhaging nurses, one in ten left
0:42:30 > 0:42:33the profession in England in each of the last three years.
0:42:33 > 0:42:35Half of them are under the age of 40.
0:42:35 > 0:42:40Howard Davies.
0:42:40 > 0:42:43If you look at the numbers, it would appear that the big change
0:42:43 > 0:42:47over the last couple of years has been that we've now got
0:42:47 > 0:42:50European Union nurses going home rather than coming here.
0:42:50 > 0:42:54So it's been the change in the net number of European Union nurses has
0:42:54 > 0:42:57been more than all of the change in the net number of nurses
0:42:57 > 0:43:02coming into the NHS.
0:43:02 > 0:43:09It would seem that part of that apparently,
0:43:09 > 0:43:12I can't quite believe this, was some new language test
0:43:12 > 0:43:20was introduced which actually did mean that some people
0:43:22 > 0:43:27who would otherwise have got in couldn't get in.
0:43:27 > 0:43:29Including, as I read, an Australian nurse
0:43:29 > 0:43:30who failed the English test.
0:43:30 > 0:43:32That doesn't surprise me knowing a few Australians!
0:43:32 > 0:43:35I think we do have to - apparently, that's now been changed
0:43:35 > 0:43:37so maybe that will have an effect.
0:43:37 > 0:43:40But I do think that it's very important that we do convey
0:43:40 > 0:43:42the right message to people coming into this country.
0:43:42 > 0:43:44We do need these nurses.
0:43:44 > 0:43:48We have been reliant on quite a few EU nurses and we ought to be clear,
0:43:48 > 0:43:51not that we have been dragged kick and screaming to an agreement
0:43:51 > 0:43:54on migration as part of Brexit, but that we actually want talented
0:43:54 > 0:43:56people to come here and work in our system.
0:43:56 > 0:43:59In what sense is the signal not being sent out?
0:43:59 > 0:44:02I think the way in which we approached the issue
0:44:02 > 0:44:05of what the rights of EU citizens were going to be here
0:44:05 > 0:44:06was very grudging.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09It took about a year to get to the point where we accepted
0:44:09 > 0:44:11the ones who were here and legitimately here
0:44:11 > 0:44:17and with a proper job and everything would be welcome.
0:44:17 > 0:44:19That was the wrong messaging and I think we are seeing
0:44:19 > 0:44:21the price of that in the NHS.
0:44:21 > 0:44:22You are nodding vigorously.
0:44:22 > 0:44:25The dialogue around Brexit, even though it might not have
0:44:25 > 0:44:27represented what Brexit was about, the dialogue I was hearing
0:44:27 > 0:44:30in the street was so hateful towards people from other places.
0:44:30 > 0:44:31That could not be helpful.
0:44:31 > 0:44:32I want to ask the question.
0:44:32 > 0:44:36We have a nurse in the audience.
0:44:36 > 0:44:37We asked the question earlier.
0:44:37 > 0:44:39What it like to be a nurse right now?
0:44:39 > 0:44:42It's hard, the basic wage for a staff nurse is very difficult.
0:44:42 > 0:44:45If you are a young nurse, that's all right.
0:44:45 > 0:44:47People coming from abroad, they don't complain about that,
0:44:47 > 0:44:50because they are young nurses, but once you have got
0:44:50 > 0:44:52a family and you have been in nursing 20 years,
0:44:52 > 0:44:55would any of you like to be earning 28,000 a year,
0:44:55 > 0:44:57because the mortgage rates have gone up, the gas, electric, food...
0:44:57 > 0:45:02Have you had people in Hereford leaving?
0:45:02 > 0:45:05A lot of them have gone to agency and to the private
0:45:05 > 0:45:12hospital up the road, because it is better.
0:45:12 > 0:45:13Pay and conditions.
0:45:13 > 0:45:15Hang on a second, I will come back.
0:45:15 > 0:45:19I am an NHS nurse and I do not entirely recognise what you are
0:45:19 > 0:45:21saying because I know why nurses are leaving.
0:45:21 > 0:45:22Nurses are leaving the profession for exactly
0:45:22 > 0:45:24what that lady is saying.
0:45:24 > 0:45:26Nurses are leaving to go back abroad because they can't believe
0:45:26 > 0:45:29the conditions they are working under in our wonderful NHS.
0:45:29 > 0:45:37I am so proud of my profession.
0:45:37 > 0:45:40We work with our hearts and our hands and our heads.
0:45:40 > 0:45:41We are not valued.
0:45:41 > 0:45:42We are losing money.
0:45:42 > 0:45:43APPLAUSE
0:45:43 > 0:45:51I think that is the answer.
0:45:51 > 0:45:54As someone who grew up in a home where my mom was in medicine,
0:45:54 > 0:45:56and I know how she was valued.
0:45:56 > 0:45:59Here, everywhere I go I hear the same story.
0:45:59 > 0:46:01I like to talk to people in the airports and train
0:46:01 > 0:46:04stations and going around.
0:46:04 > 0:46:06The nurses and doctors are saying it is so incredibly
0:46:06 > 0:46:07difficult and unbearable.
0:46:07 > 0:46:09The conditions they have been put under here.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12Let me tell you, you don't want private medicine either.
0:46:12 > 0:46:14You don't.
0:46:14 > 0:46:16APPLAUSE
0:46:16 > 0:46:21What you need is an investment in the infrastructure
0:46:21 > 0:46:25and investment in the NHS, so you have enough people you can
0:46:25 > 0:46:27handle the workload, so you can have liveable hours.
0:46:27 > 0:46:31So this looks like a job people would want to have
0:46:31 > 0:46:34and they can raise a family and that is going to cost money
0:46:34 > 0:46:37and it is going to take you guys making tough decisions
0:46:37 > 0:46:40about where that money comes from.
0:46:40 > 0:46:44I will say, as an American, I look at this country and say
0:46:44 > 0:46:47who is benefiting from this very healthy population, this beautiful
0:46:47 > 0:46:50thing that could be the NHS?
0:46:50 > 0:46:56It is corporations.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59It is businesses coming here and reaping the rewards of all
0:46:59 > 0:47:00you few beautiful, healthy people.
0:47:00 > 0:47:01I want to make sure...
0:47:01 > 0:47:04I would want to do an in-depth examination to make sure
0:47:04 > 0:47:07they are paying their fair share for the rewards they are reaping.
0:47:07 > 0:47:09So that you can have a better life.
0:47:09 > 0:47:10The woman in pink.
0:47:10 > 0:47:13Thank you, I am really saddened to hear that the cause of this
0:47:13 > 0:47:15haemorrhaging of nurses is put down to Brexit.
0:47:15 > 0:47:17I think that is a copout, quite honestly.
0:47:17 > 0:47:23APPLAUSE
0:47:23 > 0:47:29It is due to a chronic lack of planning and foresight
0:47:29 > 0:47:33for our workforce for this country.
0:47:33 > 0:47:35We have no nurses because we have taken away the bursary,
0:47:35 > 0:47:37we are not supporting people going into education,
0:47:37 > 0:47:41we are not planning for the future.
0:47:41 > 0:47:48Making sure we have GPs, doctors, nurses, physios.
0:47:48 > 0:47:51We are disregarding the NHS and I agree with you Dustin
0:47:51 > 0:47:57about the private enterprises coming in and reaping the rewards
0:47:57 > 0:47:59of the NHS, Virgin being an example.
0:47:59 > 0:48:02All right.
0:48:02 > 0:48:08There are a lot of points there, Margot James, do you want to answer?
0:48:08 > 0:48:11The lady in blue spoke very passionately from your
0:48:11 > 0:48:14personal experience.
0:48:14 > 0:48:18I spend a lot of time with the local health service in my constituency
0:48:18 > 0:48:24in the borough of Dudley and I would concede morale is very
0:48:24 > 0:48:32low in parts of the NHS and I understand what you have been
0:48:35 > 0:48:38saying and the other lady about pay, although there is progression pay,
0:48:38 > 0:48:41once you get to a certain level, the pay advance is low.
0:48:41 > 0:48:44I was pleased the Chancellor did at least relieve the public sector
0:48:44 > 0:48:47pay cap in the last Budget, so there is a sign
0:48:47 > 0:48:52of hope on that front.
0:48:52 > 0:48:55The issue of not enough places and poor planning,
0:48:55 > 0:49:02this is an old issue and certainly I think it transcends party lines.
0:49:02 > 0:49:06When I was in the NHS as a director of a trust nearly 20 years ago,
0:49:06 > 0:49:09we were so desperate for nurses we were sending recruitment
0:49:09 > 0:49:11people to the Philippines to attract people.
0:49:11 > 0:49:14It is not just nurses from the European Union.
0:49:14 > 0:49:20This has been an issue for a long time.
0:49:20 > 0:49:23At least recently there has been now funded places for 5000
0:49:23 > 0:49:25new training places, which is a 25%
0:49:25 > 0:49:30increase on last year.
0:49:30 > 0:49:33This one in ten leaving over three years, what about that?
0:49:33 > 0:49:37Is that going to make up for that?
0:49:37 > 0:49:41As Howard said, whatever the cause of it, the number of foreign nurses
0:49:41 > 0:49:47coming to the NHS that have been keeping the numbers going has halved
0:49:47 > 0:49:51in the last few years and that has been more of an effect than people
0:49:51 > 0:49:52leaving in terms of total numbers.
0:49:52 > 0:49:54There is one more point.
0:49:54 > 0:49:59That is I am keen on the new nurse apprenticeship programme.
0:49:59 > 0:50:03It will give nurses a chance to train and work and learn and earn
0:50:03 > 0:50:08whilst they are going through their studies.
0:50:08 > 0:50:11Do come back if you have got a different view,
0:50:11 > 0:50:15but I think that is another route into nursing that should encourage
0:50:15 > 0:50:18people, because there is not going to be any debt involved.
0:50:18 > 0:50:24They are going to be earning, learning...
0:50:24 > 0:50:27It is true what you are saying but you have got to have
0:50:27 > 0:50:29nurses there to teach them and they are going.
0:50:29 > 0:50:34Let me give you an example.
0:50:34 > 0:50:37I know a nurse who has left recently because she is earning a month £100
0:50:37 > 0:50:43less than her 17-year-old son, who has no qualifications
0:50:43 > 0:50:45and is an apprentice.
0:50:45 > 0:50:46Isn't that a disgrace?
0:50:46 > 0:50:49Let me bring in some others.
0:50:49 > 0:50:51There are many people here.
0:50:51 > 0:50:57Munira.
0:50:57 > 0:51:00It is clear the NHS is struggling and it is struggling under
0:51:00 > 0:51:03the weight of the demand that has been placed on it.
0:51:03 > 0:51:06I do not think it is just about money.
0:51:06 > 0:51:08The NHS needs more money, but there are other health systems
0:51:08 > 0:51:11around the world that spend similar amounts of money.
0:51:11 > 0:51:14When you say it's not about money, are you saying it is not
0:51:14 > 0:51:15about the salary that nurses get?
0:51:15 > 0:51:19I do think the NHS should get more money but I think the way the NHS
0:51:19 > 0:51:22is managed and the way it was designed originally was not
0:51:22 > 0:51:25to cope with the level of demand we place on it now.
0:51:25 > 0:51:30The population has grown in the UK by about 5% over the past decade.
0:51:30 > 0:51:32That is placing significant demand in a way that was not
0:51:32 > 0:51:33originally imagined.
0:51:33 > 0:51:35It does not answer the pay question.
0:51:35 > 0:51:37I do think nurses should get paid more.
0:51:37 > 0:51:45I do think we should value them.
0:51:50 > 0:51:52I'm sorry, it is about gender.
0:51:52 > 0:51:54If the majority of people working in the nurses profession were males,
0:51:54 > 0:51:56then the salaries would not be capped at 28,000.
0:51:56 > 0:51:59You would not have people like my sister looking to return
0:51:59 > 0:52:01to work from maternity leave thinking, I am not going
0:52:01 > 0:52:02to be any better off.
0:52:02 > 0:52:05If the majority of nurses were men, then 28,000
0:52:05 > 0:52:06would not be the top salary.
0:52:06 > 0:52:07APPLAUSE
0:52:07 > 0:52:09I think it is about class.
0:52:09 > 0:52:13There are many men in this country that are on low wages, as well.
0:52:13 > 0:52:17It is an interesting argument.
0:52:17 > 0:52:19There are many males working in the NHS, hospital porters,
0:52:19 > 0:52:23for example, who are paid badly.
0:52:23 > 0:52:27To finish my point, often in the discussion about the NHS it
0:52:27 > 0:52:31ends up being a political battle, a football between the political
0:52:31 > 0:52:34parties and each has to declare its love for the NHS
0:52:34 > 0:52:36and how much money it is giving to the NHS.
0:52:36 > 0:52:38What we don't have is an intelligent, grown-up
0:52:38 > 0:52:40conversation about the kind of health service we need
0:52:40 > 0:52:43for the 21st century.
0:52:43 > 0:52:47The fact the demands placed on it are greater,
0:52:47 > 0:52:53the fact we are getting older, the relationship to social care.
0:52:53 > 0:52:58We need to be prepared to have fresh ideas and not accuse people.
0:52:58 > 0:53:02Hold on, the man up there has been trying to get in.
0:53:02 > 0:53:09You sir.
0:53:09 > 0:53:11I think inevitably Brexit has demoralised a significant
0:53:11 > 0:53:13number of nurses who come from the European Union
0:53:13 > 0:53:16and have made a massive contribution to the NHS.
0:53:16 > 0:53:19Part of the exodus of tens of thousands of nurses leaving
0:53:19 > 0:53:21is attributable to that, coupled with the loss
0:53:21 > 0:53:22of the bursary.
0:53:22 > 0:53:25All right.
0:53:25 > 0:53:27The question originally, let me restate it because we have
0:53:27 > 0:53:31been around as always on the NHS a whole range of problems.
0:53:31 > 0:53:33The question is, what should the government do
0:53:33 > 0:53:35about the haemorrhaging, and it is this week's
0:53:35 > 0:53:36report of nurses.
0:53:36 > 0:53:41OK, firstly pay them more.
0:53:41 > 0:53:44It is as simple as that, because Margot was right to concede
0:53:44 > 0:53:47morale was low in response to those powerful contributions
0:53:47 > 0:53:48from the floor.
0:53:48 > 0:53:49Why is morale low?
0:53:49 > 0:53:51Because people, permanent staff, are on shifts next to agency
0:53:51 > 0:53:56staff being paid twice what they are being paid.
0:53:56 > 0:54:02Why are there so many agency staff, because the government has
0:54:02 > 0:54:04got its training policy wrong.
0:54:04 > 0:54:06They were cutting nurse training places a number of years ago.
0:54:06 > 0:54:08They have scrapped the bursary, as was acknowledged.
0:54:08 > 0:54:10That is the wrong way to go.
0:54:10 > 0:54:13I would say restore the bursary.
0:54:13 > 0:54:14I am trying to in Greater Manchester.
0:54:14 > 0:54:20We have devolved responsibility.
0:54:20 > 0:54:23I want to look at nurse development and training in the context
0:54:23 > 0:54:24of Brexit and the challenges it might pose.
0:54:24 > 0:54:28I want to grow more of our own young people to become NHS staff.
0:54:28 > 0:54:30I am looking at an idea that if young people commit
0:54:30 > 0:54:35to the Greater Manchester NHS for five years after qualifying
0:54:35 > 0:54:38that we might help pay off some of their tuition fees in response,
0:54:38 > 0:54:41to have a better approach to helping young people come through.
0:54:41 > 0:54:42But, actually, Munira is right.
0:54:42 > 0:54:44There is a deeper reason.
0:54:44 > 0:54:47Why is there so much pressure on nurses?
0:54:47 > 0:54:49Go back to social care staff.
0:54:49 > 0:54:54They are in an even worse position.
0:54:54 > 0:54:55They do 15 minute slots.
0:54:55 > 0:54:58They do not get the travel time between the 15 minutes,
0:54:58 > 0:55:01so they do not get paid the national minimum wage.
0:55:01 > 0:55:03Social care in this country is utterly broken.
0:55:03 > 0:55:06I tried to fix it as Health Secretary.
0:55:06 > 0:55:10Since then there has just been point-scoring about it.
0:55:10 > 0:55:13In my view and again this is what we are trying to do
0:55:13 > 0:55:21in Greater Manchester, it is time for social
0:55:23 > 0:55:24care
0:55:24 > 0:55:26to come within the public National Health Service.
0:55:26 > 0:55:28APPLAUSE .
0:55:28 > 0:55:29In this 70th anniversary year, that is the way to renew
0:55:29 > 0:55:31the National Health Service for the century of
0:55:31 > 0:55:34the ageing society.
0:55:34 > 0:55:35One service covering people's physical,
0:55:35 > 0:55:37mental and social needs.
0:55:37 > 0:55:40If you want one example where outsourcing really has
0:55:40 > 0:55:44in the worst kind of capitalism, it is in social care,
0:55:44 > 0:55:52where older people have seen services utterly slashed
0:55:54 > 0:55:57and there has been profiteering on the backs of the most vulnerable
0:55:57 > 0:55:58people in our society.
0:55:58 > 0:55:59APPLAUSE .
0:55:59 > 0:56:02Quick if you would because we are coming towards the end.
0:56:02 > 0:56:05What I do not understand, there is public support to put
0:56:05 > 0:56:07more money into the NHS, to pay our nurses more,
0:56:07 > 0:56:11to support our nurses and restore the bursary programme,
0:56:11 > 0:56:14because if you are going to be a nurse and qualify earning less
0:56:14 > 0:56:17than £30,000 a year, but you ended up in so much debt,
0:56:17 > 0:56:20with such high interest rates to pay, why would you do it?
0:56:20 > 0:56:24It does not make any sense.
0:56:24 > 0:56:26I wonder if the Conservative government we have is ideological
0:56:26 > 0:56:29making the NHS, underfunding it, so they can make the argument
0:56:29 > 0:56:31for privatisation.
0:56:31 > 0:56:39APPLAUSE
0:56:39 > 0:56:43You have to be brief in your answer.
0:56:43 > 0:56:47I am very sorry there is such enthusiasm for what you have said
0:56:47 > 0:56:53because it is utterly untrue.
0:56:53 > 0:56:57I am sorry, I have been accused of wanting to set the NHS up to fail
0:56:57 > 0:56:59so that we can privatise it.
0:56:59 > 0:57:00Nothing can be further from the truth.
0:57:00 > 0:57:01AUDIENCE MEMBER:Liar!
0:57:01 > 0:57:04I am not a liar.
0:57:04 > 0:57:07I have spent time volunteering in the NHS over four, five years.
0:57:07 > 0:57:08I am not a liar.
0:57:08 > 0:57:09I believe in the NHS.
0:57:09 > 0:57:13And so does my government.
0:57:13 > 0:57:15And we do put more money into it.
0:57:15 > 0:57:18We had...
0:57:18 > 0:57:21I am sorry, I am going to carry on answering this question.
0:57:21 > 0:57:22Let her finish.
0:57:22 > 0:57:23We are ending the programme.
0:57:23 > 0:57:24Just a last sentence.
0:57:24 > 0:57:27We have put an extra 3.5 billion in at the last Budget,
0:57:27 > 0:57:32we have increased the NHS budget every year since we got into office.
0:57:32 > 0:57:37I do accept there is more demographic pressures on it,
0:57:37 > 0:57:45I do accept that, that is true, but it is not true to say
0:57:45 > 0:57:48that we do not invest in the NHS and it is an utter lie to say
0:57:48 > 0:57:51that we don't believe in it, because we do.
0:57:51 > 0:57:52Thank you very much.
0:57:52 > 0:57:53Our hour is up.
0:57:53 > 0:57:56I'm sorry, many of you wanted to get in on that, I know.
0:57:56 > 0:57:57As always, but anyway.
0:57:57 > 0:57:58Time is up.
0:57:58 > 0:57:59Next Thursday is Burns Night.
0:57:59 > 0:58:00Question Time is from Dumfries.
0:58:00 > 0:58:00Question Time is from Dumfries.
0:58:00 > 0:58:03Those of you north of the border will know the significance,
0:58:03 > 0:58:06that is where Robbie Burns lived towards the end of his life
0:58:06 > 0:58:09and where he wrote Auld Lang Syne, so we are going to be in Dumfries.
0:58:09 > 0:58:11The following week we will be in Grantham.
0:58:11 > 0:58:14You know that is the home place of Margaret Thatcher.
0:58:14 > 0:58:18So those are the two places we are going to be.
0:58:18 > 0:58:22If you would like to come to either call...
0:58:22 > 0:58:26Or you can go to the address on the website and follow the instructions.
0:58:26 > 0:58:27If you want to carry on this debate.
0:58:27 > 0:58:30I am sure many people here would like to maybe
0:58:30 > 0:58:32you will when you get back home.
0:58:32 > 0:58:40I want to launch Dustin for the US President campaign.
0:58:40 > 0:58:41Silence, please!
0:58:41 > 0:58:43I have got to get through this stuff.
0:58:43 > 0:58:46If you want your say on to my's topics you can join
0:58:46 > 0:58:49Question Time Extra Time with Adrian Chiles
0:58:49 > 0:58:51on Radio 5 Live now.
0:58:51 > 0:58:53Or you can watch it apparently on iPlayer.
0:58:53 > 0:58:54So that is it.
0:58:54 > 0:58:55Thank you to our panel.
0:58:55 > 0:58:58Thank you to everybody here who came to Hereford to take part.
0:58:58 > 0:59:01Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night.