18/01/2018 Question Time


18/01/2018

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Transcript


LineFromTo

We're in Hereford tonight,

and welcome to Question Time.

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With us here, the Government's

new Culture Minister,

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who has an economics degree,

founded her own business before

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becoming an MP, Margot James.

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The former Labour Health Secretary,

who left Parliament in 2016

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to run and become Mayor

of Greater Manchester, Andy Burnham.

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A government advisor and deputy

governor of the Bank

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of England formally,

now chairman of the Royal Bank

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of Scotland, Howard Davies.

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The arts and culture

advisor, Munira Mirza,

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who's worked for the Tate,

the Royal Opera House

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and for Boris Johnson as one

of his deputy mayors.

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And the screenwriter

and film director who won

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an Oscar for the film Milk,

Dustin Lance Black.

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APPLAUSE

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Thank you very much.

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Thank you very much and, as you well

know, if you want to take issue,

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which I'm sure you do watching this

programme, because it

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drives people crazy,

you can do it at home

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using our hashtag bbcqt on either

Twitter or on Facebook.

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Let's have our first question,

it comes from James Burke, please.

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James Burke.

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Who should be held accountable

for the collapse of Carillion

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and what action should they face?

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Right.

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We've had more questions on this

than anything tonight.

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So who should be held

accountable for the collapse

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and what action should they face,

Margot James.

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I think that you have to hold

the directors accountable.

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You have to hold the senior

management accountable,

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and I think that they will face

a great deal of approbrium and if -

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as the Government has set in place

an inquiry through the insolvency

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service - if they have found to be

negligent or worse they will,

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I hope, receive the very

heaviest punishment possible.

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What did you think they did wrong?

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Well, I think they...

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I mean, I may be able to just say

that we don't know yet exactly

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what went wrong and perhaps my words

are assuming wrong-doing.

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Perhaps, you know...

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They've got to be given a fair

hearing and I did make the point

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that there has to be

an investigation, and the insolvency

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service will do that.

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But I think that certainly,

over the last 18 months or so,

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large dividends and large bonuses

were paid at a time when surely

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the Board must have been aware

that they were having difficulties

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getting paid on time.

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They had a great deal of mounting

debt and, obviously,

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they thought they could steer

themselves out of it.

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In fact, the week before everything

went wrong being finally,

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the share price was recovering.

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So even the market obviously thought

they were going to survive.

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But it wasn't an environment

in which they should be paying

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the bonuses they were paying

and I think that they are culpable

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of that at the very least.

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All right.

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Howard Davies, this is a tricky one

for you because you chair RBS

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and you were very much involved

in this and stopped loaning them

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money at some point.

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But what's your answer

to the question, which was -

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who should be held accountable

and what action should

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should they face?

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Well, Margot's right

that it is the directors who must be

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ultimately responsible.

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But she's also right

to say that we shouldn't

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jump to the conclusions

about whether they are guilty

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of some kind of criminal offence

or fraud or anything.

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What you have to look

at is whether they were properly

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representing the financial position

of the company, and the

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Financial Conduct Authority

is investigating that.

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In other words, when they made

their profits warnings etc,

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did they properly describe

the position of the company in a way

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that market investors

and borrowers and others

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could properly understand.

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You mean they could be

pulling the wool over

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the Government's eyes all the time?

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Both governments?

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...not necessarily the Government,

but it could have been

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the Government, but it would also

have included shareholders.

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I mean, were they accurate

in describing the financial

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position of the company?

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That is the main question

that needs to be asked.

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OK.

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There's a lot of questions on this.

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The woman there in the middle, yes.

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We're looking at what went

wrong with the company,

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but my question is more -

why did Chris Grayling award

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them billion pound contracts

after there had been a profits

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warning and a drop in share price.

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OK.

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That's the question

that we want to know.

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OK.

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Andy Burnham.

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Well I think absolutely that's

the question, isn't it?

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The question the Government has

to answer - why they gave

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the company, not just that contract,

I think three other major

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contracts after profits

warnings had been issued.

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So there are big questions

for the Government to answer.

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Margot and Howard are right,

of course the directors,

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the senior management.

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When did it become acceptable

for people to pay themselves sky

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high salaries while pushing

companies to the brink and putting

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thousands of people's jobs at risk?

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When did that become acceptable?

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APPLAUSE

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So I would say the company needs

to be held accountable

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to answer the question,

the Government does too,

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but actually, let's be honest,

all politicians too because we've

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allowed a situation to develop here

where people can behave in this way.

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Where they can pay themselves these

performance related exorbitant

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salaries and bonuses while basically

stripping away the security

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of people working in those

companies day-to-day.

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The whole culture is wrong.

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We've all allowed it to grow

over the years and it

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now needs to change.

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APPLAUSE

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The woman there.

Yes, you.

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We're asking why the Government

carried on supporting Carillion

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and giving them contracts,

could it possibly be

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that our government and our civil

servants are so distracted by Brexit

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that they weren't actually

keeping their eye on the ball?

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Right.

Dustin, what do you think?

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Well, that's a big question

I have on a lot of issues.

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Let me be clear, I'm here

from the United States of America,

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I didn't get to vote on Brexit.

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I'm here in this country

because I fell in love

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and because I call it home,

and I hope to raise a family here.

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So I really do give a damn about how

this country does and time and again

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it seems like no-one's got their eye

on the ball.

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Who's at the wheel of the ship?

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Who is - and I love

the audience member who used

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the word "accountability."

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I think, at the point

at which government says -

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we are going to take these

programmes private, you can't keep

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blaming the private company.

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Private companies

are built on profit.

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That's what they're supposed to do.

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They're supposed to make a profit.

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Well, that's not what the state

is supposed to do.

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That's not what the Government

is supposed to do.

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The Government is supposed to be

looking out for the people, for you.

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APPLAUSE

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OK.

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So when I hear accountability I say

- go to the Government who gave

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this company these jobs.

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Make sure they knew how many jobs

they were giving this company.

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How many eggs did they

put in that basket?

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Were they keeping a close enough

eye, with so much going on,

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to make sure they didn't do

something that was going to help

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the fortunes of a few

and hurt your family.

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The Government is accountable.

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Munira, I'll come to you.

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But do you want to just

answer him, just briefly?

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Yes.

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I mean, I think what I would say

to that is that government does not

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have a monopoly on the skills it

takes to deliver complex public

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services well at all.

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The voluntary sector has a role,

the private-sector has a role and,

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yes, the Government has a role

and we want the best of British

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talent engaged in this pursuit

and you don't get that by being too

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dictatorial about whether we should

all be private or it

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should all be public.

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It should be a mix.

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Carillion has shed loads

of stuff given to it,

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not just by your government,

by the Labour government as well.

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That is true.

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There are several large companies

that are capable of taking on big

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contracts and Carillion

was one of them.

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But I would take issue with people

who feel that somehow the Government

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is at fault for giving

them the business.

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I mean, the Government has been

aware of issues at Carillion and has

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taken a very close view

on all of these big companies

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and has been engaged in contingency

planning for quite some time.

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What do you mean "contingency

planning", by giving them contracts,

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like Grayling was mentioned,

giving them the contract...

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What contingency planning was there?

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I will answer your question.

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Make the point again.

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You know, where's the due diligence?

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I have to question whether Chris

Grayling was actually acting

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on behalf of the taxpayers

or the shareholders.

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That's what you're left questioning.

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I can answer that.

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Let Margot just briefly

finish her answer.

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What I would answer is,

Chris Grayling is absolutely acting

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in the interests of taxpayers.

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And what I was about to say was,

the due diligence was really

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carefully controlled

when the Government identified

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the need to have joint ventures

bidding for these contracts.

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So that if there was a failure,

at least there's another

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company of sufficient size.

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And all those contracts that

you're talking about,

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certainly in the last year,

the big ones have all been

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with other companies involved

as well, who are now going to take

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up the responsibility of delivering.

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So you're not saying nobody

is going to lose their job.

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No apprentice is going

to be out of work.

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Nobody is going to be

hurt by this collapse?

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I mean, I think the biggest

detriment actually is going to be

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the SMEs, the small businesses

in the supply chain

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of those big companies.

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Those are the people I think that,

you know, if they had too much

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business with Carillion,

I really do feel for them

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because it will be very,

very difficult for them.

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Look, the jobs will be there to be

done, they'll just be done

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for another company.

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Munira.

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I think the original question,

which is, who should

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be held to account?

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Really, who is to blame

for this happening?

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Clearly, the managers at Carillion

messed up and there were decisions

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made in government which I think

should be investigated

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and questioned.

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But there is a bigger problem

that's been revealed

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by the collapse of Carillion,

which is about how government

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procurement has been working

for the past 20 years,

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and the fact that the public

finance initiatives,

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public-private parnerships have been

dysfunctional for a long time.

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The companies like Carillion,

Carillion is not the only one

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which have been limping along,

with very poor management,

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that have been effectively

propped up by the state.

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They have been given contracts

which really they were not

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equipped to deliver,

they weren't delivering

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quality services.

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And this isn't an argument

against privatisation, I'm not

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dogmattic about whether we use

private companies, I've been

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involved in public procurement

and very often private companies

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bring specialist expertise,

they're are very efficient,

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they can be cheaper to use

than doing things inhouse.

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So I don't have sa kind

of ideological opposition to using

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private companies.

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But I think that government has

allowed this very mediocre sector

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of companies to grow up around it

and what we really need

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is for government to

have a completely different

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mind-set, a much more robust,

much more insistent

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on innovation, on efficiency.

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In fact that's what

happened with Carillion.

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In the last year, because government

got better at negotiating

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its contracts, Carillion stopped

making as much profit

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as it was used to and, in a way,

something went right.

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A company was finally exposed

for being very weak.

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It's no comfort to the people

who work for Carillion or the small

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businesses that have relied on it,

but it does show that it's important

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to put these companies

under greater scrutiny.

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OK, the man with the beard

in the middle there.

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You, sir.

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Hasn't Carillion given a lot

of money to the Conservative Party?

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I don't know what the exact amount

is, but I think that's why Carillion

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wasn't allowed to fail,

was it, because it been giving

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a bung to the Tory party,

that's why it's not been

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allowed to fail.

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Is that so Andy Burnham,

have you heard that?

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Well, there are connections

between the two.

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I'm not coming on to try and score

points and say that -

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oh, this means that they must have

done special favours for Carillion.

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All I would say is I think -

Munira said it - I think there must

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be a full investigation and those

questions have to be asked.

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I was going to come back

to the question from the woman

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over there who said,

you know why was the

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due diligence done.

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The question I would ask was,

were they actually trying to prop

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this company up by giving

these extra contracts?

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It looked a little like that to me.

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So I think we have to have a full

process here where we turn

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over all of the stones.

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We look at all of the contact

between ministers and the company

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so that we can get to the bottom

of this because we are going to need

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to learn to put changes in place

and move forward in a different

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way after this.

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So how Howard Davies

the allegation that Andy is making

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is that the Government deliberately

propped up Carillion even though

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they knew it was in difficulties

to see if they could keep it going.

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Do you think there's

any truth in that?

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Is that how government works?

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I find that difficult.

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I would be surprised slightly

if that was the case.

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I can't answer that.

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What I can say is that it seems

fairly clear that the problems

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that the company had arose primarily

from the big construction contracts,

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not from the normal provision

of sort of subcontracted services,

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where we get people to go

and deliver our catering for us.

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You know, it wasn't that,

it was that they took on contracts

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under the Private Finance

Initiative, and here I think Munira

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is right on the button.

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I think the Private Finance

Initiative has been a fraud

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on the people because essentially

the Government is always

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the cheapest borrower.

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The Government can borrow money more

cheaply than anybody else.

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And therefore if you are going

to hand over the total provision

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of a big hospital to somebody who's

borrowing costs are going

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to be higher than yours,

what is the advantage of doing that?

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Unless you are absolutely certain

they are going to be more efficient.

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If you think they are going to be

efficient why not give them

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a fixed price contract?

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Why hand over the whole thing?

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I think PFI has been a fraud

and there is an interesting report

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by the National Audit Office today

which shows just how much we have

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paid for the privilege of getting

a Private Finance Initiative,

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which was designed to take stuff off

the government's balance sheet

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so the government could pretend

it was doing more in the way of

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public services than it really was.

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This was John Major.

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But, Howard, if you are right,

John Major began this,

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Gordon Brown did it,

supercharged it, and it's

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been going ever since.

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Why did nobody say what you're

saying at the time?

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People have for a long

time complain...

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You did some, didn't you?

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People were saying things.

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Howard is right.

0:15:230:15:25

Let's go back to how this began.

0:15:250:15:28

The old ways of building public

infrastructure had not worked

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so by the early 90s the country

had crumbling infrastructure.

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So Howard is right,

the Treasury wanted a way

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of building a lot without it

being on the balance sheet.

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Why didn't they want it...

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People say this,

on the balance sheet.

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You didn't want to look

as though you are borrowing?

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If the government was borrowing too

much and they feared...

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Yes.

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It began under Major but continued

under the Labour government

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and I can remember

being the minister,

0:16:020:16:04

where there is a need to rebuild

hospitals and for us it was not

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a choice of a PFI hospital

or a public hospital, it was a PFI

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hospital or no hospital.

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In those circumstances obviously

we had hospitals that

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were not up to standard.

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Schools with leaking roofs.

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As ministers we were

working in that climate.

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I look at it now and they were not

all bad deals, by the way.

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Some of them produced facilities

that have provided better services

0:16:210:16:24

for the public in those communities

since they were built.

0:16:240:16:26

Many of them were poor value

for money and that is why I say

0:16:260:16:30

the time has come to draw a line

and move forward.

0:16:300:16:32

Can I just answer that?

0:16:320:16:37

You were in government

all that time.

0:16:370:16:38

There was nobody decreeing

you could not build

0:16:380:16:43

hospitals in the traditional

Treasury financed way.

0:16:430:16:48

That was a decision

your Chancellor took.

0:16:480:16:50

When Gordon Brown got his hands

on this PFI initiative,

0:16:500:16:54

which was judiciously used under

the Major government, I might say.

0:16:540:16:56

And then ran riot with it.

0:16:560:16:58

You never objected to it.

0:16:580:16:59

Nobody ever objected to it.

0:16:590:17:00

Well, we changed it.

0:17:000:17:01

You didn't object to it.

0:17:010:17:02

I've got figures there.

0:17:020:17:03

You can see the graph.

0:17:030:17:05

The dramatic decline.

0:17:050:17:08

Both parties are to blame

because we came into a position

0:17:080:17:13

in 1997, more than half of the NHS

predated the NHS itself.

0:17:130:17:16

It was so old, it was crumbling,

so it had to be rebuilt.

0:17:160:17:23

The question that Howard Davies has

put - he said why couldn't

0:17:230:17:26

you have borrowed the money?

0:17:260:17:28

Gordon Brown was very proud

about his record on borrowing

0:17:280:17:30

and that was an obsession.

0:17:300:17:31

It was about getting rid

of the old way where people

0:17:310:17:35

were waiting for hospitals to be

delivered, there was a long queue

0:17:350:17:39

and a history of projects

overrunning and costing

0:17:390:17:41

more than they said

they were going to cost.

0:17:410:17:43

That's where it grew from.

0:17:430:17:45

That was the time we were living

through and it's right to learn

0:17:450:17:48

lessons from that, surely.

0:17:480:17:49

After how many years?

0:17:490:17:50

The woman in white.

0:17:500:17:54

I'm a bit concerned you're talking

about all these big governments.

0:17:540:17:56

What about the people

at the bottom of the pile?

0:17:560:17:59

The people doing the cleaning

in the hospitals, people

0:17:590:18:01

providing the food?

0:18:010:18:02

They have lost their

jobs, some of them.

0:18:020:18:04

And it is hard to get another job.

0:18:040:18:07

How are you going to address

all of those people who have

0:18:070:18:11

lost their jobs when they could go

back to the NHS and the NHS

0:18:110:18:14

could take over quite

successfully as they did before?

0:18:140:18:18

We often find private

companies do not give us

0:18:180:18:20

the service that the NHS did.

0:18:200:18:22

We don't get food

at night, as nurses.

0:18:220:18:25

There is no canteen.

0:18:250:18:25

The cleaning.

0:18:250:18:26

They have different people.

0:18:260:18:32

Whereas in the old NHS,

they did have people proud

0:18:320:18:34

of their job and they did it well.

0:18:340:18:36

I feel concerned we are

talking about the higher

0:18:360:18:38

level and forgetting

the common people.

0:18:380:18:40

APPLAUSE

0:18:400:18:44

Can you briefly explain

your experience of this.

0:18:440:18:48

You work in the NHS?

0:18:480:18:49

Yes.

0:18:490:18:50

I mean, years ago there

was food 24 hours a day.

0:18:500:18:53

There isn't now.

0:18:530:18:54

You talk about obese nurses.

0:18:540:18:56

The government are

clamping down on this.

0:18:560:18:58

40% of obese nurses.

0:18:580:19:02

Actually we cannot get hold

of decent food because there isn't

0:19:020:19:05

any when we are on shift.

0:19:050:19:06

Because the service...

0:19:060:19:07

There is no service.

0:19:070:19:08

OK, the man there.

0:19:080:19:09

You, sir.

0:19:090:19:13

I think it is disgusting to hear

party politics blaming each other.

0:19:130:19:16

The whole thing about Carillion was,

a few years back, governments used

0:19:160:19:21

to put out contracts

to lots of little people,

0:19:210:19:25

organisations, and then they made

a decision to make it more effective

0:19:250:19:33

to just put out a contract to one

body or a few bodies.

0:19:330:19:36

That is what has happened.

0:19:360:19:37

Carillion is made up of a lot

of individual small companies that

0:19:370:19:40

were brought together

and it was the company,

0:19:400:19:44

it was Andy Burnham and you, madam,

that together you are equally

0:19:440:19:47

to blame and I think

it is disgusting to hear you arguing

0:19:470:19:51

when you should get together

and really look at your policies

0:19:510:19:53

and do something about it.

0:19:530:19:56

APPLAUSE.

0:19:560:20:02

I think you have

made a spot-on point

0:20:020:20:04

because what has happened,

the PFI, the privatisation mantra

0:20:040:20:11

was about trying to introduce more

entrepreneurial thinking,

0:20:110:20:14

more innovation, more competition,

so you would not have the statement

0:20:140:20:22

- state monopolies

that were inefficient.

0:20:330:20:34

What has happened over the past 20

years, is that the state has

0:20:340:20:37

simply recreated its image

in the private sector.

0:20:370:20:39

You have companies, large

companies, that always bid

0:20:390:20:41

for contracts, always win.

0:20:410:20:42

The regulation they lobby

for crowds out smaller

0:20:420:20:44

businesses, new businesses.

0:20:440:20:45

And you have not got the dynamic,

competitive, innovative kind

0:20:450:20:47

of services that you would hope for.

0:20:470:20:49

I think that is the racket that

needs to be revealed.

0:20:490:20:52

Do you think that

Carillion wins on price,

0:20:520:20:54

or on efficiency, or on quality?

0:20:540:20:55

What does it win on?

0:20:550:20:56

I think you can have large companies

that offer economies of scale.

0:20:560:21:01

But, too often, they are given

the deal because they are the lowest

0:21:010:21:04

bid and I do not think the public

sector should always give

0:21:040:21:09

the contract to the cheapest bid.

0:21:090:21:10

Think about value for

money, for quality.

0:21:100:21:12

They should think about how

it treats its workers.

0:21:120:21:15

It should think about

how innovative, how

0:21:150:21:17

productive a service is.

0:21:170:21:19

And for too long

Carillion had survived...

0:21:190:21:21

Corruption at our highest

level in government.

0:21:210:21:23

The government should look at itself

and get rid of that image.

0:21:230:21:26

All right, the man here.

0:21:260:21:32

As a start, I think the process

of PFI is deceitful because in many

0:21:320:21:37

ways it is simply concealing

the amount the government

0:21:370:21:40

is borrowing and putting up

with a huge additional cost,

0:21:400:21:44

because there are a lot of people

in the chain of events,

0:21:440:21:48

not just from the point of view

of building, but once it is built

0:21:480:21:51

you have then got to run the place

and there are fixed costs

0:21:510:21:54

for so many of these items,

which leaves for instance the NHS

0:21:540:21:58

in Hereford short of money,

which it could and should

0:21:580:22:00

be spending on nurses

and their food and their wages.

0:22:000:22:03

What are they spending

it on instead?

0:22:030:22:04

They are spending it on the PFI

contract which is so generous.

0:22:040:22:09

Andy said earlier there was a choice

of a PFI hospital or no hospital.

0:22:090:22:13

I think that is ridiculous

because if they can afford to rent

0:22:130:22:18

a hospital for the next 30 years

on a fixed price, inflation linked

0:22:180:22:21

contract, it would have been so much

cheaper for the government to simply

0:22:210:22:26

borrow the money at, as Howard said,

a much lower rate and then it

0:22:260:22:29

would have been able to afford

the other things we

0:22:290:22:31

presently cannot afford.

0:22:310:22:33

I agree with you and I was saying

the choice we were given

0:22:330:22:36

was the wrong choice.

0:22:360:22:37

We should not have been

told PFI or no hospital.

0:22:370:22:40

Who told you that?

0:22:400:22:41

That was the Treasury.

0:22:410:22:42

Treasury officials

have never liked PFI.

0:22:420:22:43

I was a Treasury official myself.

0:22:430:22:45

They never liked PFI.

0:22:450:22:47

There would have been many

instances where there

0:22:470:22:48

was no other alternative.

0:22:480:22:49

I am just telling you,

that was my experience

0:22:490:22:51

of being in government

at that particular time.

0:22:510:22:57

Howard Davies says he had never

heard, and he was deputy governor

0:22:570:23:00

of the Bank of England.

0:23:000:23:01

There wasn't the capital

budget enough to go around

0:23:010:23:03

and build every hospital.

0:23:030:23:04

Who told you you had to do it that

way, was it your Chancellor

0:23:040:23:07

of the Exchequer, Gordon Brown,

or was it the Treasury?

0:23:070:23:10

It was both.

0:23:100:23:11

It was Gordon Brown

and the Treasury policy.

0:23:110:23:13

That was the world we were living...

0:23:130:23:14

To come back to the gentleman's

point, you are right.

0:23:140:23:17

Both parties are to blame here.

0:23:170:23:18

The lady was right.

0:23:180:23:20

The idea that cleaners

and porters...

0:23:200:23:22

Everybody is right now!

0:23:220:23:25

I am just going to explain

were then separated away

0:23:250:23:28

from the team on the ward.

0:23:280:23:30

I want to make a point I did

as Health Secretary.

0:23:300:23:33

I changed Labour policy

on outsourcing in 2009 to make

0:23:330:23:36

the public NHS the preferred

provider, because I had lived

0:23:360:23:38

through those years, Howard,

I had been through those years

0:23:380:23:41

and I myself couldn't

support it any more.

0:23:410:23:44

So when I had the chance,

I said the public NHS should be

0:23:440:23:51

the provider of services and I got

cold shouldered by many people

0:23:510:23:53

in government at that time

because that is what I believed

0:23:530:23:56

and I still believe it and I think

Jeremy Corbyn is right today to say

0:23:560:24:00

the public sector should now be

the default provider

0:24:000:24:02

of public services.

0:24:020:24:04

APPLAUSE

0:24:040:24:12

My concern lies

with the tens of thousands

0:24:120:24:14

of small businesses

0:24:140:24:16

that have been affected by this.

0:24:160:24:21

As a small-business owner myself,

albeit not affected by the Carillion

0:24:210:24:23

liquidation, I know how hard it is.

0:24:230:24:25

These small businesses

employ people, these

0:24:250:24:26

people have mortgages,

they have families.

0:24:260:24:31

I heard the other day some of these

businesses are going to have to wait

0:24:310:24:37

years before they find out before

they've got recourse or compensation

0:24:370:24:39

and that is disgusting.

0:24:390:24:41

Why can we not have an instant

decision, or at least not leave it

0:24:410:24:45

years before businesses

get their money?

0:24:450:24:46

The banks have tried

to do something.

0:24:460:24:48

I don't want to just

blow my own bank's trumpet,

0:24:480:24:50

because the others have done

the same, today, have announced

0:24:500:24:53

a sizeable amount of money.

0:24:530:24:54

In our case, 75 million.

0:24:540:24:55

Santander have done

about the same, I think.

0:24:550:24:57

Of money that is available

to support small businesses

0:24:570:25:01

through a period when they are not

going to get paid by Carillion.

0:25:010:25:05

I think that is the least we can do

in the circumstances

0:25:050:25:08

and I hope that helps.

0:25:080:25:09

That is good, that is really good.

0:25:090:25:11

There is a point I want to make...

0:25:110:25:13

How do you do that?

0:25:130:25:16

You're lenders anyway.

0:25:160:25:24

We will give people, we will

increase people's overdrafts.

0:25:250:25:27

We will lengthen the terms

of their loans, we will allow them

0:25:270:25:30

to invoice, factoring a whole

variety of things, we will do,

0:25:300:25:33

which will allow them to keep

in business and not to have to go

0:25:330:25:37

under because Carillion

are not paying.

0:25:370:25:38

It is a change of policy

for the Royal Bank of Scotland,

0:25:380:25:41

because they used to

love basket cases.

0:25:410:25:43

LAUGHTER.

0:25:430:25:44

They used to say you can

make money out of people

0:25:440:25:47

who are in real trouble.

0:25:470:25:48

You cannot resist a cheap

shot, David, can you?

0:25:480:25:50

APPLAUSE

0:25:500:25:51

I'm quoting a Treasury

Select Committee, I am

0:25:510:25:53

not using a cheap shot.

0:25:530:25:55

It was before you were chairman.

0:25:550:25:57

But - rope, sometimes you need

to let customers hang

0:25:570:26:00

themselves, the Royal Bank

of Scotland said.

0:26:000:26:02

JEERING.

0:26:020:26:04

That is extremely,

extremely embarrassing.

0:26:040:26:07

I mean it seriously.

0:26:070:26:12

It is humiliating when I discovered

that had been said in 2009.

0:26:120:26:15

You wonder where to put yourself.

0:26:150:26:17

I hope we have changed

the culture now.

0:26:170:26:21

Now you're lending how many million?

0:26:210:26:23

75?

0:26:230:26:24

75.

0:26:240:26:27

This is a specific pot for small

businesses who are in trouble.

0:26:270:26:30

Howard Davies, RBS, you have said it

here on Question Time.

0:26:300:26:35

Queue up afterwards.

0:26:350:26:36

Yes?

0:26:360:26:37

Briefly, yes.

0:26:370:26:38

I wanted to ask Howard,

one of the tragedies of this

0:26:380:26:44

is the smaller building companies,

even those with good long track

0:26:440:26:46

records, cannot get normal finance.

0:26:460:26:52

And the government have made some

steps in order to guarantee loan

0:26:520:26:56

facility and that sort of thing,

but what can we do with banks to get

0:26:560:27:00

building companies of a smaller size

to be able to get the credit

0:27:000:27:04

in order to compete more

effectively in this market?

0:27:040:27:06

Goodness me, Carillion had

the credit but the smaller SMEs

0:27:060:27:10

in that sector fight like hell

to get credit and

0:27:100:27:13

they cannot get it.

0:27:130:27:14

OK.

0:27:140:27:19

We will leave that hanging because

we must go on because we have got

0:27:190:27:22

many other questions.

0:27:220:27:23

Just before we take another one,

we are going to be in Dumfries next

0:27:230:27:27

week and the week after that,

we are going to be in Grantham.

0:27:270:27:33

week and the week after that,

we are going to be in Grantham.

0:27:330:27:33

If you want to make a note of how

to get to the programme,

0:27:330:27:37

there is a telephone number

and the e-mail address

0:27:370:27:39

of how to get to us.

0:27:390:27:40

Let's take this question

from Antonia Hastings.

0:27:400:27:42

I wonder if you have

changed your name by deed poll

0:27:420:27:45

to ask this question,

Antonia.

0:27:450:27:47

I deny that, David.

0:27:470:27:49

OK, let's hear the question

and I will leave it

0:27:490:27:51

to the audience to decide.

0:27:510:27:52

Is £44 million good value

for the loan of the Bayeux tapestry,

0:27:520:27:55

or is it the stitch-up?

0:27:550:27:59

APPLAUSE

0:27:590:28:02

Very good.

0:28:020:28:05

Munira.

0:28:050:28:08

I am pleased that the Bayeux

tapestry is coming and it is

0:28:080:28:11

exciting and wonderful.

0:28:110:28:16

And clearly Macron is very pleased

about his grand Napoleonic gesture,

0:28:160:28:19

which he likes to do.

0:28:190:28:21

In terms of the serious business

of paying towards the border

0:28:210:28:23

security at Calais, it is right

the UK contributes.

0:28:230:28:27

It clearly is an issue

for us as well as France.

0:28:270:28:32

Like many of these things

it is about cooperation.

0:28:320:28:36

What is interesting about today

is it shows we can have

0:28:360:28:41

cooperation and friendship

with our allies in Europe.

0:28:410:28:45

We don't have to be a member

of the European Union.

0:28:450:28:49

I did support Brexit

and I would like us to continue

0:28:490:28:55

with that relationship,

and I think £44 million

0:28:550:28:57

is a reasonable amount.

0:28:570:28:58

It's not the first time we've paid

towards security at Calais.

0:28:580:29:01

I think we spent about £100 million

in the last three years.

0:29:010:29:04

So I think it's right

that we do that.

0:29:040:29:06

OK.

Dustin?

0:29:060:29:08

Well, I think it's wonderful that

we're going to be able to share art.

0:29:080:29:13

I'm an artist, I can't

wait to see it.

0:29:130:29:17

But I also think that folks in this

country need to get used to paying

0:29:170:29:21

these sorts of amounts and more.

0:29:210:29:23

I didn't have an opportunity to vote

on Brexit, but clearly now

0:29:230:29:27

there are going to have to be these

unilateral relationships

0:29:270:29:30

between different countries that

you didn't used to have

0:29:300:29:32

to do that with.

0:29:320:29:35

We're going to have to see this

country reach out and create these

0:29:350:29:38

relationships and these friendships

with other countries and the price

0:29:380:29:42

tag is likely going to be very high.

0:29:420:29:44

I don't know if we've answered

the question yet in the negotiations

0:29:440:29:48

of whether these new price tags

are going to be worth it.

0:29:480:29:51

I'm very curious to see

what this deal is going

0:29:510:29:54

to look like with Brexit.

0:29:540:29:56

I hope, as someone who is

going to call this home,

0:29:560:30:01

that it's a very good deal.

0:30:010:30:02

But I'm going to be equally shocked

if it is, I have to say,

0:30:020:30:06

the way things are going.

0:30:060:30:07

APPLAUSE

0:30:070:30:08

Yes.

0:30:080:30:10

I'll leave it here and get very

controversial for just a second.

0:30:100:30:14

I hope that once this deal is done,

and I say go and make a deal.

0:30:140:30:19

I want there to be a good deal

if we have to do this,

0:30:190:30:22

but if the deal is a stinker,

let the people have a voice.

0:30:220:30:25

APPLAUSE

0:30:250:30:28

OK.

0:30:280:30:33

Back to the Bayeux Tapestry

and £44 million.

0:30:330:30:36

You.

0:30:360:30:39

I'm just wondering what we should

lend to France in exchange,

0:30:390:30:41

perhaps a DVD of The Darkest Hour.

0:30:410:30:45

My answer is we should

give them Arsene Wenger,

0:30:450:30:49

it would be very

popular are referees.

0:30:490:30:51

Howard Davies.

0:30:510:30:56

Well, I think that we have to make

a contribution in Calais.

0:30:560:31:00

I think probably, perhaps

because I sort of read the French

0:31:000:31:03

press from time to time,

I think people in this country don't

0:31:030:31:06

quite understand how serious

an issue the problem in Calais has

0:31:060:31:14

been for the French and that area,

around Calais, has been a very

0:31:170:31:20

strong National Front

area and that's partly

0:31:200:31:22

because of the existence

of the camps.

0:31:220:31:23

It was called The Jungle.

0:31:230:31:26

We can say, you know,

that's not our fault,

0:31:260:31:29

but actually the UK has been

the magnet and that's what's been

0:31:290:31:31

pulling people there.

0:31:310:31:36

So I do think that if we want

the French to keep the border

0:31:360:31:40

on the other side, I think it's

reasonable for them

0:31:400:31:42

to expect us to make a contribution.

0:31:420:31:44

The one thing I would add however

is that it does seem to me

0:31:440:31:47

that the whole problem of migration

must be dealt with

0:31:470:31:49

at European level.

0:31:490:31:51

These are people who come in to one

European country, often Italy,

0:31:510:31:53

they get through to France

and they want to come here.

0:31:530:31:56

The ideaed that we can kind

of deal with this just

0:31:560:31:59

on our own seems implausible to me.

0:31:590:32:01

I think there has to be a collective

approach to the problem of economic

0:32:010:32:04

migration into Europe.

0:32:040:32:05

Do you think he played a blinder

with the Bayeux Tapestry?

0:32:050:32:08

Do you think that was expected?

0:32:080:32:09

I think he is a very

cute character, Macron.

0:32:090:32:12

A cute character or acute?

0:32:120:32:14

I think he's a great showman.

0:32:140:32:19

Cute in the sense of, you know,

thinking of smart little ideas.

0:32:190:32:22

Many people say it's his wife

actually who thinks up these ideas,

0:32:220:32:27

but I wouldn't like to be

certain about that.

0:32:270:32:31

I think it's a good gesture and I

think people feel good about it.

0:32:310:32:34

OK.

0:32:340:32:35

The woman down there.

0:32:350:32:36

I think it's an absolute

bargain, but I also think

0:32:360:32:39

that Britain is feeling

very small and very lonely

0:32:390:32:41

and a little tiny island.

0:32:410:32:44

We need all the friends

we can possibly get.

0:32:440:32:50

So, bring over the tapestry.

0:32:500:32:51

We can send the Crown

jewels back to Paris!

0:32:510:32:59

I don't think the person

who was seen on television holding

0:32:590:33:01

them so tenderly would be very

pleased about that.

0:33:010:33:04

The man in pale blue there.

0:33:040:33:09

Isn'tSeasoned the delivery

of the tapestry really just a poke

0:33:090:33:16

in the eye by Macron

in advance of the negotiations

0:33:160:33:18

in Brexit, in relation

to the forthcoming

0:33:180:33:20

trade negotiations?

0:33:200:33:21

It's a poke in the eye?

0:33:210:33:23

OK.

0:33:230:33:24

Margot James.

0:33:240:33:29

Oh, I think it's a wonderful gesture

actually, I really look

0:33:290:33:32

forward to seeing it.

0:33:320:33:33

I mean, it is said to have been

embroidered in Canterbury,

0:33:330:33:41

so it's a moot point

as to where its origins lie.

0:33:410:33:44

I think it's a wonderful

gesture anyway.

0:33:440:33:46

I think the money is

a necessary investment.

0:33:460:33:48

I agree with Howard

about the pressures on that part

0:33:480:33:50

of northern France have been intense

and we do need to

0:33:500:33:53

make a contribution.

0:33:530:33:54

The money will be spent,

you know, on new technology,

0:33:540:33:57

on state-of-the-art fencing.

0:33:570:33:59

It's a sad situation.

0:33:590:34:03

You're talking about a lot

of human misery that has

0:34:030:34:08

caused this whole issue,

but I think British people

0:34:080:34:10

are quite clear, we do need

to control our borders and this

0:34:100:34:13

is a very necessary

investment in that process.

0:34:130:34:15

Andy Burnham.

0:34:150:34:17

If it was £44 million

just for a tapestry,

0:34:170:34:19

that clearly wouldn't

be good value-for-money.

0:34:190:34:23

I don't know whether 44 is the right

figure, clearly the money,

0:34:230:34:25

as Margot just said,

does address a shared problem

0:34:250:34:28

and the border in a Calais

is a shared problem,

0:34:280:34:30

as other panellists have said,

and it's right to work with them.

0:34:300:34:33

Maybe the £44 million therefore buys

a better relationship,

0:34:330:34:36

a thawing of relations,

and I think we need a little

0:34:360:34:38

bit of that, don't we?

0:34:380:34:42

A bit less of the Johnson and Gove

rhetoric and a bit more

0:34:420:34:46

reaching out across the Channel

and building those relationships.

0:34:460:34:53

Maybe therefore that will get us,

the 44, might help us

0:34:540:34:56

get a more balanced,

sensible Brexit where, yes,

0:34:560:34:58

we must deal with the concerns

the public expressed around free

0:34:580:35:01

movement, but by doing that then

maximise our access to the single

0:35:010:35:04

market and to the customs union.

0:35:040:35:05

One thing that worried me

was to hear the former

0:35:050:35:08

French Finance Minister on the radio

this morning saying they may not now

0:35:080:35:12

be so predatory about

the City of London.

0:35:120:35:14

What worries me about

that is the whole thing

0:35:140:35:16

is going to come to be

0:35:160:35:18

about the City of London

if we're not careful.

0:35:180:35:20

We live in a London centric country.

0:35:200:35:22

My great worry, as Mayor

of Greater Manchester, is that we're

0:35:220:35:25

going to end up with a London

centric Brexit where it's

0:35:250:35:28

all about protecting the City

of London and other industries

0:35:280:35:32

in the regions, well,

they can pay the price.

0:35:320:35:35

I can tell you now, that will not be

acceptable to me and many other

0:35:350:35:39

people in the north of England.

0:35:390:35:40

We need to see a fair deal

of all of our industries

0:35:400:35:43

all over the country.

0:35:430:35:44

As to what we might

send back in return.

0:35:440:35:52

I was just thinking about something

that would fit in there,

0:35:530:36:00

something that maybe likes a drink,

0:36:000:36:06

the sound of his own voice,

someone who's name my suggest French

0:36:060:36:09

ancestry, let's send

Nigel Farage back to France.

0:36:090:36:12

APPLAUSE.

0:36:120:36:12

Can I make a point as we're talking

about this money to be

0:36:120:36:15

spent on this border.

0:36:150:36:16

Just as someone who isn't from here.

0:36:160:36:18

I know this great country has some

issues, who doesn't.

0:36:180:36:20

You've got some

things to figure out.

0:36:200:36:22

Who doesn't.

0:36:220:36:23

This country is a shining example

of what is so good in so many ways.

0:36:230:36:27

I want to applaud both parties.

0:36:270:36:28

I'm not from either party,

on the work you've done along wait

0:36:280:36:32

for inclusion for acceptance

of difference to make sure that

0:36:320:36:35

some of the things I'm

hearing my President back home say

0:36:350:36:38

would not be acceptable.

0:36:380:36:39

But understand that some of these

people who are in Calais,

0:36:390:36:41

trying to get here, they're not

coming to try to steal

0:36:410:36:44

from you or to ruin your culture,

they're coming here because you are

0:36:440:36:47

a giant, beautiful,

beacon of hope for them.

0:36:470:36:49

I hope that the Government finds it

in their heart to spend some

0:36:490:36:52

of that money to make sure

that their conditions are liveable

0:36:520:36:55

there and to let some of them

in to share their goodness

0:36:550:36:58

with your greatness.

0:36:580:36:59

APPLAUSE

0:36:590:37:00

Yeah, well said.

0:37:000:37:01

Well said.

0:37:010:37:03

Just before we leave this.

0:37:030:37:06

Howard Davies, what do you think

the threat to the financial industry

0:37:060:37:11

in Britain is and what do you think

about the way that the Brexit talks

0:37:110:37:15

are going, from your standpoint

as the Chairman of one

0:37:150:37:17

of the big banks?

0:37:170:37:20

The position is not particularly

good because where we've got

0:37:200:37:26

to is a notion that we should build

on the Canada relationship

0:37:260:37:29

there was Norway or whatever.

0:37:290:37:32

Canada, the Canada deal

with the European Union

0:37:320:37:34

is basically about goods.

0:37:340:37:36

It doesn't have any financial

services or services components.

0:37:360:37:44

So we would not get free trade

in financial services

0:37:440:37:47

out of a Canada deal.

0:37:470:37:52

That's the proposition that's

currently on the table.

0:37:520:37:55

So I'm rather anxious

about it and I hope

0:37:550:37:57

that we can, over the next

few

0:37:570:37:59

months, that the Government

will focus on building up

0:37:590:38:01

from a Canada deal

to include services.

0:38:010:38:02

That's not just about financial

services, but London's exports

0:38:020:38:05

of cultural services,

media, law etc are very, very

0:38:050:38:07

important to the country as a whole.

0:38:070:38:09

I'm more of a Mancunian

than Andy Burnham is,

0:38:090:38:12

who's a Scouser, really and so I'm

not having someone being more

0:38:120:38:15

Mancunian than me on this panel.

0:38:150:38:17

This is not about London,

this is about the fact that Britain

0:38:170:38:20

is a big service exporting country,

not just from London,

0:38:200:38:24

and we've got to get a services deal

as part of our negotiation.

0:38:240:38:27

But we know that Macron

wants to get as much

0:38:270:38:30

of the banking as he can to Paris.

0:38:300:38:32

We know the Germans would

like to have it in Frankfurt.

0:38:320:38:36

Do you think London will be able

to defend its corner?

0:38:360:38:39

The City, let me call that.

0:38:390:38:41

I think London will remain

the biggest financial centre,

0:38:410:38:43

but I think that there will be some

rebalancing within Europe.

0:38:430:38:45

I think that's an inevitable

consequence of Brexit,

0:38:450:38:47

which I regret.

0:38:470:38:48

But I think the task

is to minimise that.

0:38:480:38:53

The French Finance Chief

was on the radio this morning saying

0:38:530:38:55

that Brexit is not going to be

the catastrophe that a lot of people

0:38:550:39:00

predicted it would be for the City.

0:39:000:39:02

I think what you're seeing

in Macron is a President

0:39:020:39:05

who knows how to negotiate.

0:39:050:39:06

He's been very bullish.

0:39:060:39:07

He's saying things like,

we will steal your finance sector.

0:39:070:39:09

Of course he is.

0:39:090:39:13

That is exactly what you do

when you represent your

0:39:130:39:15

country in an negotiation.

0:39:150:39:16

I would like the leaders of this

country to also be confident,

0:39:160:39:19

to also make clear that there

are certain things we would

0:39:190:39:22

like to see happen.

0:39:220:39:25

If we are talking about

what we would want to send back

0:39:250:39:28

in return for the Bayeux Tapestry.

0:39:280:39:30

I suggest we set back the Magna

Carta which is about democracy.

0:39:300:39:35

It's an artefact of historic

importance to the world and it

0:39:350:39:42

will remind the EU that the reason

we're making this decision,

0:39:420:39:44

that we're entering into these

negotiations, is

0:39:440:39:46

because a democratic

vote was taken this country.

0:39:460:39:52

APPLAUSE.

0:39:520:39:53

The woman there, yes.

0:39:530:39:54

I will then come to you.

0:39:540:39:56

Yes.

0:39:560:39:57

I'm wondering, we're talking

about this £44 million bill

0:39:570:39:59

for the tapestry and we're talking

about it in terms of really smoozing

0:39:590:40:02

up towards the trade

negotiations for Brexit.

0:40:020:40:04

So is it...

0:40:040:40:08

Are you going to add that

on to the price tag of Brexit, OK.

0:40:080:40:11

Evidently it is related to it.

0:40:110:40:13

You think that's the

motive of it, do you?

0:40:130:40:16

These people have already suggested

that is part of the -

0:40:160:40:19

No, let Margot answer it.

0:40:190:40:26

..If you're not prepared to do that

then can we know how many

0:40:260:40:29

other little secret deals

are going on that are called

0:40:290:40:33

something else, but are actually -

this is the price of Brexit.

0:40:330:40:36

Margot, just briefly on that.

0:40:360:40:38

Well, it isn't directly

to do with Brexit.

0:40:380:40:43

It's not just to do

with the security at Calais either.

0:40:430:40:51

There are other aspects of our mutal

relationship with France.

0:40:520:40:54

Obviously, but partly

it's to do with that.

0:40:540:40:56

Security.

0:40:560:40:57

We interact with the French

on so many levels, defence

0:40:570:41:00

and security are key.

0:41:000:41:02

Both countries are the predominant

defence countries in terms of

0:41:020:41:05

investment and spend across Europe.

0:41:050:41:13

So we're working with the French

with this money in northern

0:41:170:41:20

Africa where there's a huge amount

of terrorist threat.

0:41:200:41:22

So it isn't just about

security at Calais.

0:41:220:41:24

It's also about trafficking,

trying to prevent trafficking.

0:41:240:41:26

So it's not really

to do with Brexit.

0:41:260:41:28

I don't think it's a back door deal,

just to add very quickly.

0:41:280:41:31

The British border has been

in Calais for a number of years now.

0:41:310:41:34

So we've actually had our

border post in Calais.

0:41:340:41:36

So the money is going to protect

the British border.

0:41:360:41:39

But I might just say,

we should challenge the French back.

0:41:390:41:41

I think they allow a fairly chaotic

and unmanageable scene to develop

0:41:410:41:44

in Calais where people are just left

there trying to jump on transport.

0:41:440:41:47

That isn't acceptable to me.

0:41:470:41:48

They need to put things

in place in Calais too.

0:41:480:41:51

It shouldn't just be

asking us to fund it.

0:41:510:41:53

We need clearer commitments

from the French to look after people

0:41:530:41:56

properly on their side

of the Channel.

0:41:560:41:58

At the moment, I don't

think they do that.

0:41:580:42:00

Can I just clarify.

0:42:000:42:01

I don't think that we should

not be spending this,

0:42:010:42:04

but I should think it should be

called what it's called.

0:42:040:42:07

You just want the sum to be added

up really and be open.

0:42:070:42:11

Yes.

0:42:110:42:12

We must go on.

0:42:120:42:13

We have 20 minutes left.

0:42:130:42:15

We've got many other questions.

0:42:150:42:16

We won't get through them all.

0:42:160:42:18

But we have other

questions to go through.

0:42:180:42:20

Let's have a question

from Wendy, please.

0:42:200:42:22

What should the Government do

about the haemorrhaging

0:42:220:42:23

of nurses from the NHS.

0:42:230:42:25

This is this week the head

of the Royal College of Nursing said

0:42:250:42:28

that the NHS is haemorrhaging

nurses, one in ten left

0:42:280:42:30

the profession in England in each

of the last three years.

0:42:300:42:33

Half of them are

under the age of 40.

0:42:330:42:35

Howard Davies.

0:42:350:42:40

If you look at the numbers,

it would appear that the big change

0:42:400:42:43

over the last couple of years has

been that we've now got

0:42:430:42:47

European Union nurses going home

rather than coming here.

0:42:470:42:50

So it's been the change in the net

number of European Union nurses has

0:42:500:42:54

been more than all of the change

in the net number of nurses

0:42:540:42:57

coming into the NHS.

0:42:570:43:02

It would seem that part

of that apparently,

0:43:020:43:09

I can't quite believe this,

was some new language test

0:43:090:43:12

was introduced which actually did

mean that some people

0:43:120:43:20

who would otherwise have got

in couldn't get in.

0:43:220:43:27

Including, as I read,

an Australian nurse

0:43:270:43:29

who failed the English test.

0:43:290:43:30

That doesn't surprise me

knowing a few Australians!

0:43:300:43:32

I think we do have to -

apparently, that's now been changed

0:43:320:43:35

so maybe that will have an effect.

0:43:350:43:37

But I do think that it's very

important that we do convey

0:43:370:43:40

the right message to people coming

into this country.

0:43:400:43:42

We do need these nurses.

0:43:420:43:44

We have been reliant on quite a few

EU nurses and we ought to be clear,

0:43:440:43:48

not that we have been dragged kick

and screaming to an agreement

0:43:480:43:51

on migration as part of Brexit,

but that we actually want talented

0:43:510:43:54

people to come here

and work in our system.

0:43:540:43:56

In what sense is the signal

not being sent out?

0:43:560:43:59

I think the way in which we

approached the issue

0:43:590:44:02

of what the rights of EU citizens

were going to be here

0:44:020:44:05

was very grudging.

0:44:050:44:06

It took about a year to get

to the point where we accepted

0:44:060:44:09

the ones who were here

and legitimately here

0:44:090:44:11

and with a proper job

and everything would be welcome.

0:44:110:44:17

That was the wrong messaging

and I think we are seeing

0:44:170:44:19

the price of that in the NHS.

0:44:190:44:21

You are nodding vigorously.

0:44:210:44:22

The dialogue around Brexit,

even though it might not have

0:44:220:44:25

represented what Brexit was about,

the dialogue I was hearing

0:44:250:44:27

in the street was so hateful

towards people from other places.

0:44:270:44:30

That could not be helpful.

0:44:300:44:31

I want to ask the question.

0:44:310:44:32

We have a nurse in the audience.

0:44:320:44:36

We asked the question earlier.

0:44:360:44:37

What it like to be

a nurse right now?

0:44:370:44:39

It's hard, the basic wage

for a staff nurse is very difficult.

0:44:390:44:42

If you are a young nurse,

that's all right.

0:44:420:44:45

People coming from abroad,

they don't complain about that,

0:44:450:44:47

because they are young nurses,

but once you have got

0:44:470:44:50

a family and you have been

in nursing 20 years,

0:44:500:44:52

would any of you like to be

earning 28,000 a year,

0:44:520:44:55

because the mortgage rates have gone

up, the gas, electric, food...

0:44:550:44:57

Have you had people

in Hereford leaving?

0:44:570:45:02

A lot of them have gone

to agency and to the private

0:45:020:45:05

hospital up the road,

because it is better.

0:45:050:45:12

Pay and conditions.

0:45:120:45:13

Hang on a second, I will come back.

0:45:130:45:15

I am an NHS nurse and I do not

entirely recognise what you are

0:45:150:45:19

saying because I know why

nurses are leaving.

0:45:190:45:21

Nurses are leaving

the profession for exactly

0:45:210:45:22

what that lady is saying.

0:45:220:45:24

Nurses are leaving to go back abroad

because they can't believe

0:45:240:45:26

the conditions they are working

under in our wonderful NHS.

0:45:260:45:29

I am so proud of my profession.

0:45:290:45:37

We work with our hearts

and our hands and our heads.

0:45:370:45:40

We are not valued.

0:45:400:45:41

We are losing money.

0:45:410:45:42

APPLAUSE

0:45:420:45:43

I think that is the answer.

0:45:430:45:51

As someone who grew up in a home

where my mom was in medicine,

0:45:510:45:54

and I know how she was valued.

0:45:540:45:56

Here, everywhere I go

I hear the same story.

0:45:560:45:59

I like to talk to people

in the airports and train

0:45:590:46:01

stations and going around.

0:46:010:46:04

The nurses and doctors

are saying it is so incredibly

0:46:040:46:06

difficult and unbearable.

0:46:060:46:07

The conditions they have

been put under here.

0:46:070:46:09

Let me tell you, you don't want

private medicine either.

0:46:090:46:12

You don't.

0:46:120:46:14

APPLAUSE

0:46:140:46:16

What you need is

an investment in the infrastructure

0:46:160:46:21

and investment in the NHS,

so you have enough people you can

0:46:210:46:25

handle the workload,

so you can have liveable hours.

0:46:250:46:27

So this looks like a job

people would want to have

0:46:270:46:31

and they can raise a family

and that is going to cost money

0:46:310:46:34

and it is going to take you guys

making tough decisions

0:46:340:46:37

about where that money comes from.

0:46:370:46:40

I will say, as an American,

I look at this country and say

0:46:400:46:44

who is benefiting from this very

healthy population, this beautiful

0:46:440:46:47

thing that could be the NHS?

0:46:470:46:50

It is corporations.

0:46:500:46:56

It is businesses coming

here and reaping the rewards of all

0:46:560:46:59

you few beautiful, healthy people.

0:46:590:47:00

I want to make sure...

0:47:000:47:01

I would want to do an in-depth

examination to make sure

0:47:010:47:04

they are paying their fair share

for the rewards they are reaping.

0:47:040:47:07

So that you can have a better life.

0:47:070:47:09

The woman in pink.

0:47:090:47:10

Thank you, I am really saddened

to hear that the cause of this

0:47:100:47:13

haemorrhaging of nurses is put

down to Brexit.

0:47:130:47:15

I think that is a copout,

quite honestly.

0:47:150:47:17

APPLAUSE

0:47:170:47:23

It is due to a chronic lack

of planning and foresight

0:47:230:47:29

for our workforce for this country.

0:47:290:47:33

We have no nurses because we have

taken away the bursary,

0:47:330:47:35

we are not supporting people

going into education,

0:47:350:47:37

we are not planning for the future.

0:47:370:47:41

Making sure we have GPs,

doctors, nurses, physios.

0:47:410:47:48

We are disregarding the NHS

and I agree with you Dustin

0:47:480:47:51

about the private enterprises coming

in and reaping the rewards

0:47:510:47:57

of the NHS, Virgin being an example.

0:47:570:47:59

All right.

0:47:590:48:02

There are a lot of points there,

Margot James, do you want to answer?

0:48:020:48:08

The lady in blue spoke very

passionately from your

0:48:080:48:11

personal experience.

0:48:110:48:14

I spend a lot of time with the local

health service in my constituency

0:48:140:48:18

in the borough of Dudley

and I would concede morale is very

0:48:180:48:24

low in parts of the NHS

and I understand what you have been

0:48:240:48:32

saying and the other lady about pay,

although there is progression pay,

0:48:350:48:38

once you get to a certain level,

the pay advance is low.

0:48:380:48:41

I was pleased the Chancellor did

at least relieve the public sector

0:48:410:48:44

pay cap in the last Budget,

so there is a sign

0:48:440:48:47

of hope on that front.

0:48:470:48:52

The issue of not enough

places and poor planning,

0:48:520:48:55

this is an old issue and certainly

I think it transcends party lines.

0:48:550:49:02

When I was in the NHS as a director

of a trust nearly 20 years ago,

0:49:020:49:06

we were so desperate for nurses

we were sending recruitment

0:49:060:49:09

people to the Philippines

to attract people.

0:49:090:49:11

It is not just nurses

from the European Union.

0:49:110:49:14

This has been an issue

for a long time.

0:49:140:49:20

At least recently there has been now

funded places for 5000

0:49:200:49:23

new training places,

which is a 25%

0:49:230:49:25

increase on last year.

0:49:250:49:30

This one in ten leaving over three

years, what about that?

0:49:300:49:33

Is that going to make up for that?

0:49:330:49:37

As Howard said, whatever the cause

of it, the number of foreign nurses

0:49:370:49:41

coming to the NHS that have been

keeping the numbers going has halved

0:49:410:49:47

in the last few years and that has

been more of an effect than people

0:49:470:49:51

leaving in terms of total numbers.

0:49:510:49:52

There is one more point.

0:49:520:49:54

That is I am keen on the new nurse

apprenticeship programme.

0:49:540:49:59

It will give nurses a chance

to train and work and learn and earn

0:49:590:50:03

whilst they are going

through their studies.

0:50:030:50:08

Do come back if you have

got a different view,

0:50:080:50:11

but I think that is another route

into nursing that should encourage

0:50:110:50:15

people, because there is not

going to be any debt involved.

0:50:150:50:18

They are going to be

earning, learning...

0:50:180:50:24

It is true what you are saying

but you have got to have

0:50:240:50:27

nurses there to teach them

and they are going.

0:50:270:50:29

Let me give you an example.

0:50:290:50:34

I know a nurse who has left recently

because she is earning a month £100

0:50:340:50:37

less than her 17-year-old son,

who has no qualifications

0:50:370:50:43

and is an apprentice.

0:50:430:50:45

Isn't that a disgrace?

0:50:450:50:46

Let me bring in some others.

0:50:460:50:49

There are many people here.

0:50:490:50:51

Munira.

0:50:510:50:57

It is clear the NHS is struggling

and it is struggling under

0:50:570:51:00

the weight of the demand that has

been placed on it.

0:51:000:51:03

I do not think it is

just about money.

0:51:030:51:06

The NHS needs more money,

but there are other health systems

0:51:060:51:08

around the world that spend similar

amounts of money.

0:51:080:51:11

When you say it's not about money,

are you saying it is not

0:51:110:51:14

about the salary that nurses get?

0:51:140:51:15

I do think the NHS should get more

money but I think the way the NHS

0:51:150:51:19

is managed and the way

it was designed originally was not

0:51:190:51:22

to cope with the level

of demand we place on it now.

0:51:220:51:25

The population has grown in the UK

by about 5% over the past decade.

0:51:250:51:30

That is placing significant demand

in a way that was not

0:51:300:51:32

originally imagined.

0:51:320:51:33

It does not answer the pay question.

0:51:330:51:35

I do think nurses

should get paid more.

0:51:350:51:37

I do think we should value them.

0:51:370:51:45

I'm sorry, it is about gender.

0:51:500:51:52

If the majority of people working

in the nurses profession were males,

0:51:520:51:54

then the salaries would not be

capped at 28,000.

0:51:540:51:56

You would not have people

like my sister looking to return

0:51:560:51:59

to work from maternity leave

thinking, I am not going

0:51:590:52:01

to be any better off.

0:52:010:52:02

If the majority of nurses

were men, then 28,000

0:52:020:52:05

would not be the top salary.

0:52:050:52:06

APPLAUSE

0:52:060:52:07

I think it is about class.

0:52:070:52:09

There are many men in this country

that are on low wages, as well.

0:52:090:52:13

It is an interesting argument.

0:52:130:52:17

There are many males working

in the NHS, hospital porters,

0:52:170:52:19

for example, who are paid badly.

0:52:190:52:23

To finish my point, often

in the discussion about the NHS it

0:52:230:52:27

ends up being a political battle,

a football between the political

0:52:270:52:31

parties and each has

to declare its love for the NHS

0:52:310:52:34

and how much money it

is giving to the NHS.

0:52:340:52:36

What we don't have is

an intelligent, grown-up

0:52:360:52:38

conversation about the kind

of health service we need

0:52:380:52:40

for the 21st century.

0:52:400:52:43

The fact the demands

placed on it are greater,

0:52:430:52:47

the fact we are getting older,

the relationship to social care.

0:52:470:52:53

We need to be prepared to have fresh

ideas and not accuse people.

0:52:530:52:58

Hold on, the man up there has

been trying to get in.

0:52:580:53:02

You sir.

0:53:020:53:09

I think inevitably Brexit has

demoralised a significant

0:53:090:53:11

number of nurses who come

from the European Union

0:53:110:53:13

and have made a massive

contribution to the NHS.

0:53:130:53:16

Part of the exodus of tens

of thousands of nurses leaving

0:53:160:53:19

is attributable to that,

coupled with the loss

0:53:190:53:21

of the bursary.

0:53:210:53:22

All right.

0:53:220:53:25

The question originally,

let me restate it because we have

0:53:250:53:27

been around as always on the NHS

a whole range of problems.

0:53:270:53:31

The question is, what

should the government do

0:53:310:53:33

about the haemorrhaging,

and it is this week's

0:53:330:53:35

report of nurses.

0:53:350:53:36

OK, firstly pay them more.

0:53:360:53:41

It is as simple as that,

because Margot was right to concede

0:53:410:53:44

morale was low in response to those

powerful contributions

0:53:440:53:47

from the floor.

0:53:470:53:48

Why is morale low?

0:53:480:53:49

Because people, permanent staff,

are on shifts next to agency

0:53:490:53:51

staff being paid twice

what they are being paid.

0:53:510:53:56

Why are there so many agency staff,

because the government has

0:53:560:54:02

got its training policy wrong.

0:54:020:54:04

They were cutting nurse training

places a number of years ago.

0:54:040:54:06

They have scrapped the bursary,

as was acknowledged.

0:54:060:54:08

That is the wrong way to go.

0:54:080:54:10

I would say restore the bursary.

0:54:100:54:13

I am trying to in

Greater Manchester.

0:54:130:54:14

We have devolved responsibility.

0:54:140:54:20

I want to look at nurse development

and training in the context

0:54:200:54:23

of Brexit and the challenges

it might pose.

0:54:230:54:24

I want to grow more of our own young

people to become NHS staff.

0:54:240:54:28

I am looking at an idea that

if young people commit

0:54:280:54:30

to the Greater Manchester NHS

for five years after qualifying

0:54:300:54:35

that we might help pay off some

of their tuition fees in response,

0:54:350:54:38

to have a better approach to helping

young people come through.

0:54:380:54:41

But, actually, Munira is right.

0:54:410:54:42

There is a deeper reason.

0:54:420:54:44

Why is there so much

pressure on nurses?

0:54:440:54:47

Go back to social care staff.

0:54:470:54:49

They are in an even worse position.

0:54:490:54:54

They do 15 minute slots.

0:54:540:54:55

They do not get the travel time

between the 15 minutes,

0:54:550:54:58

so they do not get paid

the national minimum wage.

0:54:580:55:01

Social care in this

country is utterly broken.

0:55:010:55:03

I tried to fix it

as Health Secretary.

0:55:030:55:06

Since then there has just been

point-scoring about it.

0:55:060:55:10

In my view and again this

is what we are trying to do

0:55:100:55:13

in Greater Manchester,

it is time for social

0:55:130:55:21

care

0:55:230:55:24

to come within the public

National Health Service.

0:55:240:55:26

APPLAUSE .

0:55:260:55:28

In this 70th anniversary year,

that is the way to renew

0:55:280:55:29

the National Health Service

for the century of

0:55:290:55:31

the ageing society.

0:55:310:55:34

One service covering

people's physical,

0:55:340:55:35

mental and social needs.

0:55:350:55:37

If you want one example

where outsourcing really has

0:55:370:55:40

in the worst kind of capitalism,

it is in social care,

0:55:400:55:44

where older people have seen

services utterly slashed

0:55:440:55:52

and there has been profiteering

on the backs of the most vulnerable

0:55:540:55:57

people in our society.

0:55:570:55:58

APPLAUSE .

0:55:580:55:59

Quick if you would because we are

coming towards the end.

0:55:590:56:02

What I do not understand,

there is public support to put

0:56:020:56:05

more money into the NHS,

to pay our nurses more,

0:56:050:56:07

to support our nurses and restore

the bursary programme,

0:56:070:56:11

because if you are going to be

a nurse and qualify earning less

0:56:110:56:14

than £30,000 a year,

but you ended up in so much debt,

0:56:140:56:17

with such high interest rates

to pay, why would you do it?

0:56:170:56:20

It does not make any sense.

0:56:200:56:24

I wonder if the Conservative

government we have is ideological

0:56:240:56:26

making the NHS, underfunding it,

so they can make the argument

0:56:260:56:29

for privatisation.

0:56:290:56:31

APPLAUSE

0:56:310:56:39

You have to be

brief in your answer.

0:56:390:56:43

I am very sorry there is such

enthusiasm for what you have said

0:56:430:56:47

because it is utterly untrue.

0:56:470:56:53

I am sorry, I have been accused

of wanting to set the NHS up to fail

0:56:530:56:57

so that we can privatise it.

0:56:570:56:59

Nothing can be further

from the truth.

0:56:590:57:00

AUDIENCE MEMBER:

Liar!

0:57:000:57:01

I am not a liar.

0:57:010:57:04

I have spent time volunteering

in the NHS over four, five years.

0:57:040:57:07

I am not a liar.

0:57:070:57:08

I believe in the NHS.

0:57:080:57:09

And so does my government.

0:57:090:57:13

And we do put more money into it.

0:57:130:57:15

We had...

0:57:150:57:18

I am sorry, I am going to carry

on answering this question.

0:57:180:57:21

Let her finish.

0:57:210:57:22

We are ending the programme.

0:57:220:57:23

Just a last sentence.

0:57:230:57:24

We have put an extra 3.5 billion

in at the last Budget,

0:57:240:57:27

we have increased the NHS budget

every year since we got into office.

0:57:270:57:32

I do accept there is more

demographic pressures on it,

0:57:320:57:37

I do accept that, that is true,

but it is not true to say

0:57:370:57:45

that we do not invest in the NHS

and it is an utter lie to say

0:57:450:57:48

that we don't believe

in it, because we do.

0:57:480:57:51

Thank you very much.

0:57:510:57:52

Our hour is up.

0:57:520:57:53

I'm sorry, many of you wanted

to get in on that, I know.

0:57:530:57:56

As always, but anyway.

0:57:560:57:57

Time is up.

0:57:570:57:58

Next Thursday is Burns Night.

0:57:580:57:59

Question Time is from Dumfries.

0:57:590:58:00

Question Time is from Dumfries.

0:58:000:58:00

Those of you north of the border

will know the significance,

0:58:000:58:03

that is where Robbie Burns lived

towards the end of his life

0:58:030:58:06

and where he wrote Auld Lang Syne,

so we are going to be in Dumfries.

0:58:060:58:09

The following week we

will be in Grantham.

0:58:090:58:11

You know that is the home place

of Margaret Thatcher.

0:58:110:58:14

So those are the two

places we are going to be.

0:58:140:58:18

If you would like to

come to either call...

0:58:180:58:22

Or you can go to the address on the

website and follow the instructions.

0:58:220:58:26

If you want to carry on this debate.

0:58:260:58:27

I am sure many people

here would like to maybe

0:58:270:58:30

you will when you get back home.

0:58:300:58:32

I want to launch Dustin

for the US President campaign.

0:58:320:58:40

Silence, please!

0:58:400:58:41

I have got to get

through this stuff.

0:58:410:58:43

If you want your say

on to my's topics you can join

0:58:430:58:46

Question Time Extra Time

with Adrian Chiles

0:58:460:58:49

on Radio 5 Live now.

0:58:490:58:51

Or you can watch it

apparently on iPlayer.

0:58:510:58:53

So that is it.

0:58:530:58:54

Thank you to our panel.

0:58:540:58:55

Thank you to everybody here who came

to Hereford to take part.

0:58:550:58:58

Until next Thursday,

from Question Time, good night.

0:58:580:59:01

David Dimbleby presents topical debate from Hereford. On the panel, the Conservative culture minister, Margot James MP, the mayor of Greater Manchester and former Labour MP, Andy Burnham, chairman of the Royal Bank of Scotland, Howard Davies, arts advisor and former deputy mayor of London for culture, Munira Mirza, and the Oscar-winning screenwriter, Dustin Lance Black.


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