0:00:06 > 0:00:14Tonight, we're in Dumfries, and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:16 > 0:00:21On our panel, the Conservative peer and former Secretary of State
0:00:21 > 0:00:26for Scotland who is a passionate advocate of both the Union
0:00:26 > 0:00:29and Brexit, Michael Forsyth.
0:00:29 > 0:00:33A close ally and admirer of Jeremy Corbyn in the Shadow Cabinet
0:00:33 > 0:00:36until two weeks ago, former bricklayer, the Labour
0:00:36 > 0:00:38MP, Chris Williamson.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41Speaking up for culture and tourism in Scotland
0:00:41 > 0:00:44we have the SNP's Culture Secretary, Fiona Hyslop MSP.
0:00:44 > 0:00:49The co-convener of the Scottish Greens whose MSPs prop up the SNP
0:00:49 > 0:00:52government at Holyrood, Maggie Chapman.
0:00:52 > 0:00:58And journalist and broadcaster, former chief political commentator
0:00:58 > 0:01:00for the Daily Telegraph, now writing for the Daily
0:01:00 > 0:01:03Mail, Peter Oborne.
0:01:03 > 0:01:09APPLAUSE.
0:01:13 > 0:01:17And remember, you have the freedom of Twitter and Facebook
0:01:17 > 0:01:22to comment on all of this, our hashtag is #bbcqt.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25Let's take our first question from Gail Murray, please.
0:01:25 > 0:01:26Gail?
0:01:26 > 0:01:31Do you agree that Theresa May was correct to slap Boris Johnson
0:01:31 > 0:01:35down for wanting more money for the NHS.
0:01:35 > 0:01:40Boris Johnson who famously this week said he was going to ask
0:01:40 > 0:01:45for £100 million a week in Cabinet and the Prime Minister
0:01:45 > 0:01:47appeared to get everybody else to gang up on him.
0:01:47 > 0:01:50And he never actually asked for it in the end.
0:01:50 > 0:01:51Michael Forsyth?
0:01:51 > 0:01:56Well I don't think he was slapped down for asking for more money
0:01:56 > 0:02:00for the NHS, I think he was slapped down for saying he was going to say
0:02:00 > 0:02:04that in Cabinet when discussions in Cabinet are supposed to be kept
0:02:04 > 0:02:07private and where people have an opportunity to air their views.
0:02:07 > 0:02:10But I actually think Boris was right.
0:02:10 > 0:02:13I mean, the whole vote Leave campaign was based on the fact
0:02:13 > 0:02:15that we contribute a net contribution of £10
0:02:15 > 0:02:16billion a year to Europe.
0:02:16 > 0:02:19The other £10 billion, we are told how to spend,
0:02:19 > 0:02:21and a large slice of that money, if we were outside
0:02:21 > 0:02:24of the European Union, should be spent on the Health
0:02:24 > 0:02:25Service.
0:02:25 > 0:02:29APPLAUSE.
0:02:29 > 0:02:31And I think he's right about that.
0:02:31 > 0:02:34I think one of the oddities about the present Cabinet is,
0:02:34 > 0:02:37I mean we've got it tonight, we have got the Chancellor
0:02:37 > 0:02:40of the Exchequer appearing to say something that's completely at odds
0:02:40 > 0:02:43with what the Prime Minister said in her Lancaster House speech.
0:02:43 > 0:02:47So I think Theresa May needs to get a grip on the Cabinet
0:02:47 > 0:02:50and the Cabinet need to get behind her because we are about
0:02:50 > 0:02:54the nation's business on this Brexit matter.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57It's essential that we all pull together.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00That means across parties as well, in order to get the best opportunity
0:03:00 > 0:03:03for us to benefit from being able to determine our own laws,
0:03:03 > 0:03:06our own borders and to decide how we spend our money,
0:03:06 > 0:03:08according to our own national needs.
0:03:08 > 0:03:11APPLAUSE.
0:03:11 > 0:03:13Chris Williamson?
0:03:13 > 0:03:15The NHS is in absolute crisis and let's remember that
0:03:15 > 0:03:21Boris Johnson promised us £350 million a week
0:03:21 > 0:03:23for the National Health Service.
0:03:23 > 0:03:24Where has that gone?
0:03:24 > 0:03:27But, you know, there is a major problem in relation
0:03:27 > 0:03:30to a number of aspects of the National Health Service too.
0:03:30 > 0:03:31The internal market that was originally created
0:03:31 > 0:03:34by the Conservatives back in the late 1980s is currently
0:03:34 > 0:03:38costing in the order of £10 billion a year.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41So we obviously need to reform the National Health Service,
0:03:41 > 0:03:44we need to get rid of that internal market, in my opinion.
0:03:44 > 0:03:48We need to properly resource the National Health Service
0:03:48 > 0:03:50and Labour has promised to fund the National Health Service
0:03:50 > 0:03:55to the tune of £30 billion extra over the life of the next Parliament
0:03:55 > 0:03:59because we can't go on with this crisis that the National Health
0:03:59 > 0:04:01Service has confronted.
0:04:01 > 0:04:04What do you make of what was going on in the Cabinet this week?
0:04:04 > 0:04:05The terms of?
0:04:05 > 0:04:09The questioner who said, was Theresa May correct
0:04:09 > 0:04:10to slap down Boris Johnson?
0:04:10 > 0:04:11Well, clearly no.
0:04:11 > 0:04:13What was going on, in your view?
0:04:13 > 0:04:16Well, there's a power struggle going on between the Conservative Party.
0:04:16 > 0:04:20The Conservatives are riven between the Brexiteers and those
0:04:20 > 0:04:22that oppose that and want to remain inside the European Union.
0:04:22 > 0:04:26Theresa May is struggling to negotiate with her own Cabinet,
0:04:26 > 0:04:30let alone negotiate with the EU and Boris Johnson going off piste
0:04:30 > 0:04:34like this is an indication of the crisis the Conservative Party's
0:04:34 > 0:04:39in at the moment and there's all sorts of rumours now that she'll
0:04:39 > 0:04:42be facing a leadership challenge before very long.
0:04:42 > 0:04:46But let's not lose sight of the fact that the Health Service is in crisis
0:04:46 > 0:04:48and when the Tories say that they've never been better prepared
0:04:48 > 0:04:51for the winter crisis, well I just ask them to look around
0:04:51 > 0:04:54and see the ambulances queueing up.
0:04:54 > 0:04:56You notice how quickly he's trying to change the subject.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58The fact is Labour is a shambles on Brexit.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00It's facing every direction.
0:05:00 > 0:05:03You don't even try and answer the lady's question,
0:05:03 > 0:05:05the first thing you did was change the subject to the
0:05:05 > 0:05:07National Health Service.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10Labour want to leave the European Union, join
0:05:10 > 0:05:11it, be part of it...
0:05:11 > 0:05:14APPLAUSE.
0:05:14 > 0:05:17But Peter, the point was, the lady never asked
0:05:17 > 0:05:19about the National Health Service, the fact that Boris Johnson
0:05:19 > 0:05:22talked about money for the National Health Service.
0:05:22 > 0:05:23Brilliantly consistent.
0:05:23 > 0:05:26He campaigned on that basis when we campaigned for Brexit.
0:05:26 > 0:05:31Where's the consistency, Peter, between £100 million a week he's
0:05:31 > 0:05:33offering now and the £350 million he was telling us during
0:05:33 > 0:05:36the referendum campaign?
0:05:36 > 0:05:37The £350 million...
0:05:37 > 0:05:38APPLAUSE.
0:05:38 > 0:05:40All right.
0:05:40 > 0:05:41Maggie Chapman?
0:05:41 > 0:05:44Frankly it's difficult to take anything the Conservatives say
0:05:44 > 0:05:47about the National Health Service seriously.
0:05:47 > 0:05:52It's almost impossible to run a Health Service in a sick society
0:05:52 > 0:05:54and our society is sick because our economic society
0:05:54 > 0:06:00is set up to channel money from the poor and normal people
0:06:00 > 0:06:04to the very, very wealthy.
0:06:04 > 0:06:07That's the cause of this.
0:06:07 > 0:06:11I think it's also quite rich for Michael to sit here and say
0:06:11 > 0:06:12actually everything will be fine under Brexit.
0:06:12 > 0:06:14Because of the Tory's immigration policies,
0:06:14 > 0:06:19we cannot attract the nursing students that used to come to us
0:06:19 > 0:06:20from the European Union.
0:06:20 > 0:06:21APPLAUSE.
0:06:21 > 0:06:28And because of the quite, quite meaningless limits set
0:06:28 > 0:06:31on what people can earn, we can't attract junior doctors
0:06:31 > 0:06:35from around the world because they won't actually earn
0:06:35 > 0:06:41enough to meet the minimum income requirements.
0:06:41 > 0:06:45Fiona Hyslop speaking for the SNP, what is your view
0:06:45 > 0:06:48about what happened in Cabinet and of the state of
0:06:48 > 0:06:49politics at Westminster?
0:06:49 > 0:06:53I think there are two aspects to the question.
0:06:53 > 0:06:56One is, should there be more money in the Health Service and of course
0:06:56 > 0:06:59in Scotland the health service is devolved and the Scottish
0:06:59 > 0:07:00Government runs that.
0:07:00 > 0:07:02We have a budget next week and there is more money
0:07:02 > 0:07:05for the Health Service there and we challenge the Labour
0:07:05 > 0:07:06Party to support that budget.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08Your question I think was also about the politics
0:07:08 > 0:07:09of this within the Cabinet.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12I think we have an attention-seeking Foreign Secretary who wants
0:07:12 > 0:07:15desperately to be sacked.
0:07:17 > 0:07:19OK.
0:07:19 > 0:07:25Just on that point on the Health Service,
0:07:25 > 0:07:29you might just want to explain why, if we take from 2012 to 2016,
0:07:29 > 0:07:32expenditure on the NHS in England went up by 10%,
0:07:32 > 0:07:34but in Scotland it only went up by 5%.
0:07:34 > 0:07:35Why was that?
0:07:35 > 0:07:39Because we have regularly increased investment in the Health Service
0:07:39 > 0:07:43since the Scottish Government came to power.
0:07:43 > 0:07:47Investment in the Health Service has gone up £4 billion to £13 billion.
0:07:47 > 0:07:51Just in this town alone, Dumfries, there's been a brand-new
0:07:51 > 0:07:54hospital worth £256 million and the Health Service in Scotland
0:07:54 > 0:07:58by any regard is far more resilient and is not
0:07:58 > 0:07:59going the privatisation route.
0:07:59 > 0:08:04APPLAUSE.
0:08:04 > 0:08:08You've got 20% more per head because of the money that
0:08:08 > 0:08:11comes from England under the Barnet formula.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14That's from taxpayers.
0:08:14 > 0:08:19And you spent that money which came from the increase in expenditure
0:08:19 > 0:08:21in the Health Service on other things.
0:08:21 > 0:08:22Hang on a second.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25Isn't there a bit of kettle and pot here, because didn't you support
0:08:25 > 0:08:28the £350 million a week coming in?
0:08:28 > 0:08:33£350 million a week is what our gross contribution is to the EU.
0:08:33 > 0:08:38If I give you £10...
0:08:38 > 0:08:44Thank you...
0:08:44 > 0:08:45LAUGHTER.
0:08:45 > 0:08:46£10.
0:08:46 > 0:08:48Now, you give me £20.
0:08:48 > 0:08:49Certainly not!
0:08:49 > 0:08:52And by the way, I'm going to tell you how to spend that £10.
0:08:52 > 0:08:53Yes.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56That is the deal which we have with the European Union.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58And Mark Carney's said that 0.9%...
0:08:58 > 0:08:59I'll keep that.
0:08:59 > 0:09:04The 0.9% GDP depression that we've got in our growth and the problems
0:09:04 > 0:09:06that's causing just now is worth £350 million.
0:09:06 > 0:09:08Let me go to members of the audience.
0:09:08 > 0:09:10And that's now.
0:09:10 > 0:09:12I'll come to you in the blue, there?
0:09:12 > 0:09:15I'm a GP here in Dumfries.
0:09:15 > 0:09:17You are a GP?
0:09:17 > 0:09:19I'm a GP, yes.
0:09:19 > 0:09:23I would like to know what the Scottish Government
0:09:23 > 0:09:25is going to do about the lack of consultants in Scotland.
0:09:25 > 0:09:29There are 430 consultant positions that are unfilled in Scotland
0:09:29 > 0:09:33at the moment and in the local hospital, there are
0:09:33 > 0:09:37current vacancies - 24 consultants are missing,
0:09:37 > 0:09:39that's a percentage of 24%.
0:09:39 > 0:09:41That's unprecedented.
0:09:41 > 0:09:43So you don't think it's any big deal, that.
0:09:43 > 0:09:45What do you say, Sir?
0:09:45 > 0:09:47If part of the question is about slapping Boris down
0:09:47 > 0:09:51for asking the question about where is the money come
0:09:51 > 0:09:52from the Health Service.
0:09:52 > 0:09:55Given we have talked about being in crisis
0:09:55 > 0:09:57and there being unprecedented demand, when is the time
0:09:57 > 0:10:00to talk about it?
0:10:00 > 0:10:02And you think this is a good time?
0:10:02 > 0:10:03Absolutely.
0:10:03 > 0:10:07Yes.
0:10:07 > 0:10:09He's been told, there is a Cabinet collective saying,
0:10:09 > 0:10:12do not talk about this now, it's a debate for later but clearly
0:10:12 > 0:10:14the pressures are now, the debate later won't solve
0:10:14 > 0:10:16the problem that we have today.
0:10:16 > 0:10:17Peter Oborne, you are a political commentator.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19What do you make about what is going on?
0:10:19 > 0:10:22You have spoken briefly, but what do you think's gone
0:10:22 > 0:10:24on in Cabinet between May and Johnson and Philip Hammond
0:10:24 > 0:10:26saying he's the Foreign Secretary and all of that?
0:10:26 > 0:10:29I completely agree with what the gentleman just said there,
0:10:29 > 0:10:32it's a serious point.
0:10:32 > 0:10:36I think we are at a very, very grave moment in the history
0:10:36 > 0:10:40of this Government and I hadn't understood how grave
0:10:40 > 0:10:43it was until the events of today.
0:10:43 > 0:10:48We do clearly have a massive clash and we have needed it maybe around
0:10:48 > 0:10:52the shape of what Brexit is going to be like.
0:10:52 > 0:10:58Clearly, Mr Hammond, Amber Rudd, the Home Secretary,
0:10:58 > 0:11:00and the Civil Service are very, very strongly wanting
0:11:00 > 0:11:03Britain to basically stay in the European Union in various
0:11:03 > 0:11:06major significant ways.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08And against that, Mr Johnson, the Foreign Secretary, and allies,
0:11:08 > 0:11:13are arguing that if we leave Europe, we have got to leave it,
0:11:13 > 0:11:17we can't remain part of it subject to its rules,
0:11:17 > 0:11:20but having no say on how the rules exist.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23This has glared up today into a major, major row and it
0:11:23 > 0:11:26reminds me a little bit, I have to say, of Heseltine
0:11:26 > 0:11:28versus Thatcher in 1986, a major clash between the Prime Minister
0:11:28 > 0:11:30and one of the major figures of her Government.
0:11:30 > 0:11:33So I don't think we should underestimate that.
0:11:33 > 0:11:36How is it going to be resolved?
0:11:36 > 0:11:38Well, it's going to be resolved by doing what the Prime Minister's
0:11:38 > 0:11:42set out in her speech at Lancaster House,
0:11:42 > 0:11:45which is returning to us the ability to decide our own laws,
0:11:45 > 0:11:50decide how we spend our money and decide on who we allow
0:11:50 > 0:11:51to come into our country.
0:11:51 > 0:11:54One of the reasons there's enormous pressure on the Health Service
0:11:54 > 0:11:59is because Labour lost control of immigration, the population went
0:11:59 > 0:12:02up by more than two million.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05You cannot put your population up by two million and not expect
0:12:05 > 0:12:08pressure on our roads, on our schools and on our hospitals
0:12:08 > 0:12:10and we need to be able to control our borders and decide
0:12:10 > 0:12:12what our rules are.
0:12:12 > 0:12:17APPLAUSE.
0:12:17 > 0:12:20To pick up on that point.
0:12:20 > 0:12:23I'll come to you in a second but Peter says this
0:12:23 > 0:12:25is a major turning point and the Cabinet is divide.
0:12:25 > 0:12:27Do you see a divided Cabinet?
0:12:27 > 0:12:30Do you think Philip Hammond is going to be able to come
0:12:30 > 0:12:32to an agreement with Boris Johnson and the Prime Minister
0:12:32 > 0:12:33on the way Brexit goes?
0:12:33 > 0:12:41I think that the Cabinet have got to reach a collective view
0:12:44 > 0:12:50and they have to support the Prime Minister which the vast majority
0:12:50 > 0:12:58of Tory MPs do.
0:13:03 > 0:13:06If people don't agree with the policy of the Prime Minister,
0:13:06 > 0:13:07then they leave and resign.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10What they don't do is remain in the Cabinet and go off briefing
0:13:10 > 0:13:12and making speeches which give ambiguity and which undermine
0:13:12 > 0:13:14our national interest because of our negotiate...
0:13:14 > 0:13:15Oh.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17Does that show how weak she is as Prime Minister though.
0:13:17 > 0:13:19Who're your candidates for resignation then?
0:13:19 > 0:13:22Well, whoever's not actually going to get in behind what we stood
0:13:22 > 0:13:25for election in our manifesto to do, which was to leave the single
0:13:25 > 0:13:27market, to leave the customs union which, by the way,
0:13:27 > 0:13:29discriminates against the poorest countries in the world
0:13:29 > 0:13:31and makes our food and our clothing.
0:13:31 > 0:13:32We know the policies.
0:13:32 > 0:13:34Michael, you have just alleged that the problems
0:13:34 > 0:13:36of the National Health Service are to do with the previous
0:13:36 > 0:13:39Labour Government but when Labour left office in 2010,
0:13:39 > 0:13:41satisfaction in the National Health Service had never been
0:13:41 > 0:13:43higher and we, on average, invested £5 billion extra
0:13:43 > 0:13:45into the National Health Service, £5 billion more than
0:13:45 > 0:13:46the Conservative party.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49The problem of the National Health Service is the lack of investment
0:13:49 > 0:13:50from this Government.
0:13:50 > 0:13:51That's where they're at fault.
0:13:51 > 0:13:53All right.
0:13:53 > 0:13:54The woman in this third row?
0:13:54 > 0:13:56We are going off in two directions at once.
0:13:56 > 0:13:58The woman in black-and-white there, yes?
0:13:58 > 0:14:02I work for the NHS, have done for nearly 30 years and I think
0:14:02 > 0:14:05that our MPs who represent us need to stop trying to outdo each other
0:14:05 > 0:14:07and need to actually have some honest discussions.
0:14:07 > 0:14:08APPLAUSE.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11OK.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15You, over there?
0:14:15 > 0:14:18I think they also need to stop discussing everything around Brexit,
0:14:18 > 0:14:22we have day-to-day business we need to manage.
0:14:22 > 0:14:26APPLAUSE.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28So what do you think about Brexit?
0:14:28 > 0:14:31Did you take a back seat or do you think other things are more
0:14:31 > 0:14:33important than Brexit?
0:14:33 > 0:14:40I think you can't forget the day-to-day policies,
0:14:40 > 0:14:42the likes of what's happening in the NHS and the crisis
0:14:42 > 0:14:44we are in in the NHS at the moment.
0:14:44 > 0:14:47There are workers across the country who're doing their absolute utmost
0:14:47 > 0:14:49to provide a service for our public which they've expected
0:14:49 > 0:14:51for many years.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53That's been forgotten at times.
0:14:53 > 0:14:56Fiona, do you think the Government's been misled by the Brexit argument
0:14:56 > 0:15:00and ignoring other things they should be concentrating on?
0:15:00 > 0:15:02Certainly in Scotland our main focus has to be and has
0:15:02 > 0:15:04been on public services, health and education.
0:15:04 > 0:15:07On health we've had, as you will know if you work
0:15:07 > 0:15:08in the health service,
0:15:08 > 0:15:09an unprecedented winter in recent history.
0:15:09 > 0:15:13I think we all have to thank everybody that has helped.
0:15:13 > 0:15:16I have had personal relatives that have been in the health
0:15:16 > 0:15:18service over recent weeks, and I think in terms
0:15:18 > 0:15:22of the challenges we have, yes, we've got challenges.
0:15:22 > 0:15:24We are investing more than ever before.
0:15:24 > 0:15:26We've got 12,000 more folk working in the health service.
0:15:26 > 0:15:27What about Brexit?
0:15:27 > 0:15:29She was saying Brexit has taken over in Westminster.
0:15:29 > 0:15:31Clearly in Holyrood, you don't have direct control over
0:15:31 > 0:15:34Brexit so you can't.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37Well, there are issues around Brexit currently being discussed
0:15:37 > 0:15:40in the Scottish parliament which is about precisely making sure
0:15:40 > 0:15:42that we do have a say in what happens in Brexit,
0:15:42 > 0:15:46particularly around our devolved areas.
0:15:46 > 0:15:48You, sir, in the spectacles.
0:15:48 > 0:15:51And I want to make the link because I think it's absolutely
0:15:51 > 0:15:54right we have to do the day-to-day job, and that's all we're doing,
0:15:54 > 0:15:57and we're doing it with a lot of pressures, everyone is trying
0:15:57 > 0:15:58to do it very, very well.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01But the link with Brexit is just about how much money will be
0:16:01 > 0:16:03available for our health service in the future.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05And only last week the Scottish Government,
0:16:05 > 0:16:08which is the only ones who have produced an economic analysis said
0:16:08 > 0:16:11if there is a hard Brexit there'll be 9% at least reduction in GDP.
0:16:11 > 0:16:14And that's the future tax take that will fund our health service,
0:16:14 > 0:16:17and that's where the link is.
0:16:17 > 0:16:19The man in spectacles there.
0:16:19 > 0:16:22There's a link between Brexit and the National Health Service,
0:16:22 > 0:16:24and the difficulties they are having in finding future funding.
0:16:24 > 0:16:29Why is it that instead of playing political
0:16:29 > 0:16:33football with these issues, the parties don't get together
0:16:33 > 0:16:35in a coalition of expertise?
0:16:35 > 0:16:42APPLAUSE
0:16:42 > 0:16:47Very briefly, I will ask the politicians here why
0:16:47 > 0:16:50that isn't possible, because it's often
0:16:50 > 0:16:51raised in Question Time.
0:16:51 > 0:16:52A kind of yes or no.
0:16:52 > 0:16:54Could there be cross-party agreement, without going into Labour
0:16:54 > 0:16:55policy and Tory policy?
0:16:55 > 0:16:58Is there any meeting point that you could, between you...
0:16:58 > 0:17:01I think the difficulty is that there is an ideological divide, sadly,
0:17:01 > 0:17:02between the parties.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05And the problem is that for far too long, and actually this
0:17:05 > 0:17:09affected New Labour as well, public services were seen as a cash
0:17:09 > 0:17:11cow for the private sector.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13This is why it led to the Carillion disaster.
0:17:13 > 0:17:17And what we need to do is to stop that.
0:17:17 > 0:17:20And I've already mentioned the issue about the internal market.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22We need to be investing in our public services.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24Public services should be exclusively about delivering public
0:17:24 > 0:17:27service to the public, not generating private profit
0:17:27 > 0:17:29for the private sector.
0:17:29 > 0:17:35APPLAUSE
0:17:35 > 0:17:39Do you believe there is merit in the argument?
0:17:39 > 0:17:41I agree entirely with what the gentleman says.
0:17:41 > 0:17:44There clearly is a crisis this winter and you hear terrible
0:17:44 > 0:17:47stories coming from the hospitals.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50And I think there's going to have to be a great deal more spent
0:17:50 > 0:17:52on the National Health Service.
0:17:52 > 0:17:56Now, I think you're right, the parties must come together.
0:17:56 > 0:17:57They have to agree.
0:17:57 > 0:18:00And I think the time has come for a royal commission
0:18:00 > 0:18:03of all three parties, four, five parties, to go
0:18:03 > 0:18:07into these great issues.
0:18:07 > 0:18:11Won't that just delay solutions?
0:18:11 > 0:18:13Not at all, because if you look at the history
0:18:13 > 0:18:15in the National Health Service, it's been an amazing success.
0:18:15 > 0:18:18Look at the history of royal commissions, on the other hand!
0:18:18 > 0:18:22What they do, though, is, they may be long
0:18:22 > 0:18:25and drawn out but they bring about political consent.
0:18:25 > 0:18:29The Beveridge settlement in 1944 created the structure for
0:18:29 > 0:18:31the welfare state which followed.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34Nobody can say that that has been a failure.
0:18:34 > 0:18:35It's been a marvellous thing.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38And I believe that all the parties should get together now and make
0:18:38 > 0:18:42the decisions about how much tax, how much investment,
0:18:42 > 0:18:46the role of the private sector, all these vexatious issues.
0:18:46 > 0:18:47All right.
0:18:47 > 0:18:49Maggie.
0:18:49 > 0:18:51It's interesting, here in Scotland, with a minority SNP government,
0:18:51 > 0:18:54parties do work together.
0:18:54 > 0:18:56The government has to, in order to get anything through.
0:18:56 > 0:19:00And as Greens, we've been very, very clear that we want to see a pay
0:19:00 > 0:19:02rise for public sector workers and we want to protect
0:19:02 > 0:19:04public sector services.
0:19:04 > 0:19:10And Kezia Dugdale herself said, if nurses and teachers get a pay
0:19:10 > 0:19:13rise in this coming Scottish budget it will be down to the Greens,
0:19:13 > 0:19:15because we are working constructively with another
0:19:15 > 0:19:16political party.
0:19:16 > 0:19:18That's what politics should be about.
0:19:18 > 0:19:23APPLAUSE
0:19:23 > 0:19:25We need to move on, but Michael Forsyth,
0:19:25 > 0:19:28just on that narrow - it may not be a narrow point -
0:19:28 > 0:19:30on the single point of a Royal commission,
0:19:30 > 0:19:33the way Peter Oborne was suggesting, do you think there's
0:19:33 > 0:19:34any future in that?
0:19:34 > 0:19:35Do you think, despite the differences?
0:19:35 > 0:19:37I agree with Peter, because some of the things that
0:19:37 > 0:19:40will come out of it will be politically very unpopular.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43Like, for example, why should people who are perfectly able to pay get
0:19:43 > 0:19:46free prescriptions when that money could be diverted into patient care?
0:19:46 > 0:19:48I mean, there are a whole...
0:19:48 > 0:19:51And this public versus private, actually, the government which did
0:19:51 > 0:19:53most to advance private was Tony Blair's government,
0:19:53 > 0:19:57and they did that in order to build the hospitals and schools.
0:19:57 > 0:20:01You signed for a PFI hospital in Edinburgh.
0:20:01 > 0:20:02See what I mean?
0:20:02 > 0:20:07We need to actually be able to have a grown-up discussion.
0:20:07 > 0:20:10Should people have to pay if they don't turn up to their GP
0:20:10 > 0:20:11for their appointment?
0:20:11 > 0:20:13There are a whole range of things...
0:20:13 > 0:20:14It might have escaped your attention, Michael,
0:20:14 > 0:20:16but the Labour Party's under new management.
0:20:16 > 0:20:17OK.
0:20:17 > 0:20:20It's going to go well, this royal commission, I can see.
0:20:20 > 0:20:21I'm going to move on.
0:20:21 > 0:20:24Just before I do, Question Time comes from Grantham next Thursday.
0:20:24 > 0:20:26The week after that we are in Darlington.
0:20:26 > 0:20:31Grantham and then Darlington.
0:20:31 > 0:20:33On the screen is how to apply.
0:20:33 > 0:20:40I was going to...
0:20:41 > 0:20:43Let's have this question from Marion Thompson, please.
0:20:43 > 0:20:45What does the Presidents Club tell us about Britain today?
0:20:45 > 0:20:48You all know what the Presidents Club is, I assume, the party
0:20:48 > 0:20:51at the Dorchester to raise funds for charity, in which women were,
0:20:51 > 0:20:55according to the Financial Times, which sent an undercover reporter,
0:20:55 > 0:20:58were abused in various ways during the evening.
0:20:58 > 0:21:00What does it tell us about Britain today?
0:21:00 > 0:21:02Maggie Chapman?
0:21:02 > 0:21:05No, I think I'll go to Fiona Hyslop, because we heard you just last.
0:21:05 > 0:21:09Well, what we've seen on our screens, and I congratulate
0:21:09 > 0:21:12the FT journalists that undertook a very brave exercise.
0:21:12 > 0:21:19I think it's appalling.
0:21:19 > 0:21:20It's just absolutely appalling.
0:21:20 > 0:21:22So what does it say about Britain today?
0:21:22 > 0:21:25We're not as progressive as we think we are when it comes to the rights
0:21:25 > 0:21:28of women and how men want to use their power.
0:21:28 > 0:21:33APPLAUSE
0:21:33 > 0:21:37And yes, there are good, decent men in our society.
0:21:37 > 0:21:41But it's society generally that still has that sexism.
0:21:41 > 0:21:46And the idea that you could have institutionalised a ticket price
0:21:46 > 0:21:51for license for sexual harrassment in this day and age is unbelievable.
0:21:51 > 0:21:58In terms of what that means, I agree with Carolyn Fairbarn
0:21:58 > 0:22:01from the CBI director-general, because she made the point that this
0:22:01 > 0:22:05is symptomatic of how power and influence and networking happen
0:22:05 > 0:22:07more broadly, particularly in the City of London,
0:22:07 > 0:22:11but perhaps elsewhere in other areas.
0:22:11 > 0:22:15And if we really want a change, then these men, and they are men,
0:22:15 > 0:22:18the men at that men-only Presidents Club, are the leaders
0:22:18 > 0:22:22of their businesses and sometimes political life and other areas.
0:22:22 > 0:22:26And they are also responsible for our daughters, our sisters,
0:22:26 > 0:22:30our wives, and indeed our mothers, as their employees.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33Now, we want women at the top but we are going to have to get
0:22:33 > 0:22:35the change in the culture of how people respect women,
0:22:35 > 0:22:37and a change in that balance.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40And I think that's what the Presidents Club tells us,
0:22:40 > 0:22:41it's got to change.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44Women do not have to put up with this any more.
0:22:44 > 0:22:47APPLAUSE
0:22:47 > 0:22:53You, sir, over there.
0:22:53 > 0:22:58So how inappropriate was it, then, that the Minister for Children
0:22:58 > 0:23:00and Families was in attendance at the Presidents Club?
0:23:00 > 0:23:04Completely inappropriate.
0:23:04 > 0:23:06I mean, quite frankly I think the whole thing
0:23:06 > 0:23:07is an utter disgrace.
0:23:07 > 0:23:10And for Theresa May to say, she has done repeatedly over
0:23:10 > 0:23:12the last few months, that she supports equality, gender
0:23:12 > 0:23:15equality and rights for women, to not turn round and then sack
0:23:15 > 0:23:19Nadhim Zahawi for being at such an event, I think it shows just how
0:23:19 > 0:23:24little she really cares about genuine equality and that
0:23:24 > 0:23:27culture change that Fiona has been talking about.
0:23:27 > 0:23:29If we don't get real leadership from our Prime Minister,
0:23:29 > 0:23:34then what on earth are we supposed to be telling our young people,
0:23:34 > 0:23:37women and children all around us?
0:23:37 > 0:23:41If the Minister for Children and Families goes to a place
0:23:41 > 0:23:45where you can, where you are bidding for a lot to
0:23:45 > 0:23:49"add spice to your wife",
0:23:49 > 0:23:51cosmetic surgery for men to buy for their wives,
0:23:51 > 0:23:54I'm sorry, that is an utter disgrace and he has no place
0:23:54 > 0:23:55in the British government.
0:23:55 > 0:24:02APPLAUSE
0:24:02 > 0:24:05Let me just, can I just repeat Marion's question?
0:24:05 > 0:24:10It wasn't just, was it wrong, the Presidents Club,
0:24:10 > 0:24:12it was what does it tell us about Britain today?
0:24:12 > 0:24:13Peter Oborne.
0:24:13 > 0:24:16I think what it tells us is that Britain is changing very fast.
0:24:16 > 0:24:19I mean this deeply distasteful event passed by without
0:24:19 > 0:24:23notice ten years ago.
0:24:23 > 0:24:27And suddenly there it is, and it stares at you and it's completely
0:24:27 > 0:24:31horrible and unacceptable.
0:24:31 > 0:24:36That said, if I'd been Ormond Street Hospital and received
0:24:36 > 0:24:40600,000 or something courtesy, I cannot for the life
0:24:40 > 0:24:42of me understand why they've given it back.
0:24:42 > 0:24:46APPLAUSE
0:24:46 > 0:24:49But it also says something quite important about how our public
0:24:49 > 0:24:54services, Ormond Street Hospital and the NHS, is funded.
0:24:54 > 0:24:57If it relies on charity donations from such dinners,
0:24:57 > 0:25:00what kind of world do we inhabit?
0:25:00 > 0:25:07Actually, there is a role for charities in supporting great
0:25:07 > 0:25:10institutions and saving lives like the Ormond Street Hospital.
0:25:10 > 0:25:13And one of the saving graces of this ghastly event is that some money
0:25:13 > 0:25:15has gone to charity, 20 million, we hear,
0:25:15 > 0:25:18and gone to the Ormond Street Hospital.
0:25:18 > 0:25:21And to the Evelina Hospital at Saint Thomas',
0:25:21 > 0:25:22the other children's hospital.
0:25:22 > 0:25:24And have they given it back as well?
0:25:24 > 0:25:27They say they are going to give it back and any gifts
0:25:27 > 0:25:28they've had before.
0:25:28 > 0:25:30The one saving grace of this ghastliness is that it
0:25:30 > 0:25:32would have saved lives.
0:25:32 > 0:25:35I think we need an explanation of why they are giving the money back.
0:25:35 > 0:25:37You, sir.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40I'd like to ask the lady calling for the resignation
0:25:40 > 0:25:43whether she feels responsible for my behaviour at this event?
0:25:43 > 0:25:47I think somebody who is there representing,
0:25:47 > 0:25:49who is a representative of the British government,
0:25:49 > 0:25:53as Nadhim Zahawi is, attending one of these events,
0:25:53 > 0:25:55I think that's a disgrace.
0:25:55 > 0:25:57He is not just there as an individual.
0:25:57 > 0:26:00He is there as a minister, the Minister for Children
0:26:00 > 0:26:01and Families, no less.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04For the Minister for Children and Families to be at an event
0:26:04 > 0:26:07where women are being groped, where women are being invited
0:26:07 > 0:26:10upstairs to men's bedrooms, because they think that's fair game,
0:26:10 > 0:26:12they think that's appropriate, for women to be asked
0:26:12 > 0:26:16whether they are prostitutes is completely unacceptable.
0:26:16 > 0:26:22APPLAUSE
0:26:22 > 0:26:25There are only men with their hands up in the audience to
0:26:25 > 0:26:26speak for the moment.
0:26:26 > 0:26:28Maybe some women would like to speak.
0:26:28 > 0:26:29Let me come to Michael Forsyth.
0:26:29 > 0:26:30I will come to you.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33Clearly, this was a revolting event and there were a number
0:26:33 > 0:26:36of men behaving badly.
0:26:36 > 0:26:40But I don't know what went on there, other than what I've
0:26:40 > 0:26:42read in the newspapers.
0:26:42 > 0:26:44And the Minister has said that he went along thinking
0:26:44 > 0:26:46it was a charity event.
0:26:46 > 0:26:48He didn't see anything untoward happening.
0:26:48 > 0:26:51He felt uncomfortable and he went home.
0:26:51 > 0:26:53And I think really it's a bit childish to call
0:26:53 > 0:26:54for his resignation.
0:26:54 > 0:26:56I mean, he's condemned the event.
0:26:56 > 0:26:59The event has been closed down.
0:26:59 > 0:27:02What does it say about our country was the question.
0:27:02 > 0:27:06It just makes me feel sick to my stomach.
0:27:06 > 0:27:09What it says is that people are drinking too much
0:27:09 > 0:27:11and behaving very badly, and that there are still gross
0:27:11 > 0:27:14attitudes towards women, and that the behaviour of those men
0:27:14 > 0:27:16is at last we have universal condemnation, and people
0:27:16 > 0:27:19are getting the message that it's not acceptable.
0:27:19 > 0:27:23It's Burns night.
0:27:23 > 0:27:27I would just describe them as a parcel of rogues in a nation.
0:27:27 > 0:27:34You, sir.
0:27:34 > 0:27:38With regards to the charity giving the money back,
0:27:38 > 0:27:40there is such a thing as dirty money.
0:27:40 > 0:27:47And when he says what does it mean about our society,
0:27:47 > 0:27:50it means that our society has got a misconstrued moral compass.
0:27:50 > 0:27:53It doesn't seem to matter.
0:27:53 > 0:27:55Sometimes money seems to talk to everyone.
0:27:55 > 0:28:00To say they should not give the money back was wrong.
0:28:00 > 0:28:02I think it's absolutely spot on.
0:28:02 > 0:28:05The woman up there.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08Yes.
0:28:08 > 0:28:13I just think that with you saying that he's left and he's
0:28:13 > 0:28:15embarrassed about it, why didn't he say anything?
0:28:15 > 0:28:17He was there.
0:28:17 > 0:28:20I think it's ridiculous to assume that he was there
0:28:20 > 0:28:22and he didn't see anything.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25What was he doing, walking around with his hands over his eyes?
0:28:25 > 0:28:27How many girls were at that party?
0:28:27 > 0:28:29OK, he left embarrassed, but why didn't he blow the whistle,
0:28:29 > 0:28:32why didn't he say something?
0:28:32 > 0:28:35Well, I think what it says to me is that there are very rich,
0:28:35 > 0:28:38powerful people in this country who still think they have a sense
0:28:38 > 0:28:41of entitlement to abuse and exploit people at their whim.
0:28:41 > 0:28:42And Maggie made a really important point.
0:28:42 > 0:28:47APPLAUSE
0:28:47 > 0:28:50What kind of country do we want, when a great institution
0:28:50 > 0:28:52like Great Ormond Street Hospital is reliant upon charity from these
0:28:52 > 0:28:55types of individuals?
0:28:55 > 0:29:01And there is another point I want to make
0:29:01 > 0:29:04which is really important, I think, and it is this.
0:29:04 > 0:29:07Many of those very wealthy individuals attending that the event
0:29:07 > 0:29:12will no doubt have employed smart accountants to avoid their taxes.
0:29:12 > 0:29:14Rather than actually avoiding their taxes,
0:29:14 > 0:29:16they should be grateful to pay their taxes to support
0:29:16 > 0:29:18our public services.
0:29:18 > 0:29:21Clem Attlee summed it up beautifully.
0:29:21 > 0:29:23Let me just read a very short quote from him.
0:29:23 > 0:29:27He said, "Charity is a cold, grey, loveless thing.
0:29:27 > 0:29:30"If a rich man wants to help the poor, he should pay his taxes
0:29:30 > 0:29:35"gladly, not dole out money at a whim".
0:29:35 > 0:29:38And I think this thing at the Presidents Club absolutely
0:29:38 > 0:29:40sums up what is wrong with this society at the moment.
0:29:40 > 0:29:44APPLAUSE
0:29:44 > 0:29:46Yes, you.
0:29:46 > 0:29:49I think it's just "lad culture" with very rich men who are able
0:29:49 > 0:29:51to pay for this kind of thing.
0:29:51 > 0:29:54If any girl has been to university, they are very clear what this type
0:29:54 > 0:29:57of culture is, and you are kind of just told to accept it.
0:29:57 > 0:30:00So it's just part of the bigger issue that we need
0:30:00 > 0:30:01to tackle in society, surely.
0:30:01 > 0:30:05OK.
0:30:05 > 0:30:10APPLAUSE.
0:30:10 > 0:30:11We'll move on to another question.
0:30:11 > 0:30:13Peter Court, let's have your question?
0:30:13 > 0:30:17Is the Labour Party being taken over by Momentum extremists?
0:30:17 > 0:30:21Well, Chris Williamson was a Corbyn supporter,
0:30:21 > 0:30:23a member of the Shadow Cabinet until a week ago,
0:30:23 > 0:30:28a couple of weeks ago.
0:30:28 > 0:30:32I will come to you, Chris, but Peter Oborne, what do you think,
0:30:32 > 0:30:34has the party been taken over, whatever that means,
0:30:34 > 0:30:36the majority of it been taken over?
0:30:36 > 0:30:38I think it's a little bit too early to say.
0:30:38 > 0:30:41I think a lot of the reporting of this is hysterical.
0:30:41 > 0:30:46And there's one area at least where I'm rather in favour
0:30:46 > 0:30:49of Momentum and that's in Haringey.
0:30:49 > 0:30:54You are reading everywhere about the horror of these mad
0:30:54 > 0:30:58people, these Marxist Lennonists seizing control in Haringey,
0:30:58 > 0:31:02but what's actually happening in Haringey, I have lots of friends
0:31:02 > 0:31:07there, is that this horrible private partnership development invented
0:31:07 > 0:31:11by the Labour Blairite council bringing in billions of private
0:31:11 > 0:31:14sector money is wiping out huge areas of Haringey,
0:31:14 > 0:31:19destroying it, ruining communities and it's not just demented
0:31:19 > 0:31:23lefties who're against it, loads of sensible people
0:31:23 > 0:31:25are against this thing which is going on in Haringey.
0:31:25 > 0:31:30I'd just like to be a little bit suspicious of some
0:31:30 > 0:31:34of the things which I'm reading about Momentum.
0:31:34 > 0:31:35OK.
0:31:35 > 0:31:36Fiona Hyslop?
0:31:36 > 0:31:40The answer is, I don't know if Labour is being
0:31:40 > 0:31:43taken over by Momentum.
0:31:43 > 0:31:46I think it's more potentially what is happening in England,
0:31:46 > 0:31:48rather than what's necessarily happening in Scotland.
0:31:48 > 0:31:51I think in terms of where Labour is, I think people don't know
0:31:51 > 0:31:53where they stand on so many things.
0:31:53 > 0:31:56That's the problem because I think a lot of the young people,
0:31:56 > 0:31:59not in Scotland but in England voted for the Labour Party thinking
0:31:59 > 0:32:01that they would stand up against what was happening
0:32:01 > 0:32:04in Brexit, whereas Jeremy Corbyn is actually siding with
0:32:04 > 0:32:07the Conservative Party on so much of the Brexit issues.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10So I think there's a great deal of I think smoke and mirrors.
0:32:10 > 0:32:13The fact that in Scotland, and I think in England,
0:32:13 > 0:32:16they don't want to tell people what their position is on what Peter
0:32:16 > 0:32:22and indeed Michael Forsyth's described as one of the biggest
0:32:22 > 0:32:24issues facing the country for a generation.
0:32:24 > 0:32:29If you are aspiring to Government, people have to know where you stand
0:32:29 > 0:32:32and I think that's the difficulty people have with Labour just now
0:32:32 > 0:32:35but it's their private grief, it's a different party,
0:32:35 > 0:32:38it's up to them to explain themselves.
0:32:38 > 0:32:41I think people are confused as to what Labour stand for but it's
0:32:41 > 0:32:44very dangerous if they're siding with the Conservatives on a number
0:32:44 > 0:32:47of issues while pretending to be in favour of the working class
0:32:47 > 0:32:49and defending their interests and sometimes I think we should be
0:32:49 > 0:32:57asking more probing questions and I think that's something the
0:32:57 > 0:32:59media could do far more of as well.
0:32:59 > 0:33:00Peter Court, what do you think?
0:33:00 > 0:33:04After Jeremy Corbyn was elected as leader of the Labour Party and it
0:33:04 > 0:33:07seems to have been infiltrated by the far left who're
0:33:07 > 0:33:10there to protect him from those who're against him within the Labour
0:33:10 > 0:33:11Party.
0:33:11 > 0:33:15I think the Labour Party's going so far left it's gone off the page.
0:33:15 > 0:33:19Jeremy Corbyn is a Marxist, John McDonnell wouldn't deny
0:33:19 > 0:33:22that he was a Marxist when he was interviewed
0:33:22 > 0:33:25by Andrew Marr.
0:33:25 > 0:33:30And Dianne Abbott, I don't know where she is,
0:33:30 > 0:33:36but I would never let her run a bath, never mind a party.
0:33:36 > 0:33:37APPLAUSE.
0:33:37 > 0:33:38OK.
0:33:38 > 0:33:39Chris Williamson?
0:33:39 > 0:33:42Look, Momentum are not extremists, absolutely not.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45And if you look at the Labour Party now, it's an exercise in democracy.
0:33:45 > 0:33:47We are now a mass movement.
0:33:47 > 0:33:51The Labour Party has more members than all of the other parties put
0:33:51 > 0:33:53together by some distance.
0:33:53 > 0:33:59When you say we are extremists, is it that the Labour Party
0:33:59 > 0:34:00is putting forward now.
0:34:00 > 0:34:03One thing is, we are opposing austerity unlike the SNP supported
0:34:03 > 0:34:05by the Greens who're implementing austerity here in Scotland.
0:34:05 > 0:34:06We're not.
0:34:06 > 0:34:08We are on the side of the British people.
0:34:08 > 0:34:11If you look at the opinion polls, where the British people are at,
0:34:11 > 0:34:14the British people want to see the utilities brought back
0:34:14 > 0:34:15into public ownership.
0:34:15 > 0:34:23They want to see tuition fees scrapped.
0:34:23 > 0:34:25They want to see the economy working for ordinary people.
0:34:25 > 0:34:27They want to see investment in our National Health Service,
0:34:27 > 0:34:30they want to see investment in our schools and education.
0:34:30 > 0:34:33We want to give people a stake in our economy, we want to build
0:34:33 > 0:34:34the houses people want.
0:34:34 > 0:34:35We can create...
0:34:35 > 0:34:37Where's the money coming for this?
0:34:37 > 0:34:39How much will it cost to renationalise the industries?
0:34:39 > 0:34:41It's a free ticket essentially, Sir, because they are revenue-generating
0:34:41 > 0:34:49bodies aren't they, so any cost would be met by the revenue
0:34:49 > 0:34:50which we have generated.
0:34:50 > 0:34:53For example take the railways, what we have said with
0:34:53 > 0:34:55the Train Operating Companies is that we'd take them back
0:34:55 > 0:34:57into public ownership as the franchises come
0:34:57 > 0:34:58up for renewal.
0:34:58 > 0:35:00It's not Labour Party policy, it's Momentum that's interesting
0:35:00 > 0:35:02and one of the things you and Momentum want
0:35:02 > 0:35:06is for candidates to face mandatory reselection for instance,
0:35:06 > 0:35:09which is always used as a kind of code for changing the nature
0:35:09 > 0:35:11of the Labour Party.
0:35:11 > 0:35:13You are in favour of mandatory reselection?
0:35:13 > 0:35:16Well, that's not Momentum policy as I understand it certainly I've
0:35:16 > 0:35:18spoken in favour of mandatory reselection because,
0:35:18 > 0:35:21if you think about it, there's no other elected position
0:35:21 > 0:35:23in this country which doesn't have to face a periodic endorsement.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26Do you think half the Labour Party are on the wrong tap,
0:35:26 > 0:35:27the ones who oppose Corbyn?
0:35:27 > 0:35:29Listen, I've been in the Labour Party...
0:35:29 > 0:35:33I'm talking about the MPs in Westminster.
0:35:33 > 0:35:37Yes OK but they are not the Labour Party are they, they're
0:35:37 > 0:35:40the Parliamentary Labour Party, they're Parliamentary Labour Party,
0:35:40 > 0:35:42they're an important part of the Labour Party.
0:35:42 > 0:35:44But the Labour Party comprises for getting on for 600,000 members.
0:35:44 > 0:35:46When you take into account registered members,
0:35:46 > 0:35:48it's 800,000 members.
0:35:48 > 0:35:52The Labour Party's never been more united and we are on the side
0:35:52 > 0:35:55of the British people, we want an economy that
0:35:55 > 0:35:57works for everyone.
0:35:57 > 0:35:59No, no, no, it's not about being far left.
0:35:59 > 0:36:02If you are talking about being far left, Sir, we actually support
0:36:02 > 0:36:04bringing the railways back into public ownership.
0:36:04 > 0:36:05You have said all of that.
0:36:05 > 0:36:06I'm going to stop you.
0:36:06 > 0:36:09That's where the British people are at, that's what they want.
0:36:09 > 0:36:12Let me repeat the question - is the Labour Party being taken over
0:36:12 > 0:36:13by Momentum extremists was the word.
0:36:13 > 0:36:14Michael Forsyth?
0:36:14 > 0:36:17That's certainly their objective which is why they want reselection.
0:36:17 > 0:36:20If I talk to me friends at the Labour Party in Westminster,
0:36:20 > 0:36:22who're what I would describe as reasonable, old-fashioned Labour
0:36:22 > 0:36:26people, they're terrified at the prospects and they're
0:36:26 > 0:36:27under great pressure.
0:36:27 > 0:36:32That is the objective and Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell
0:36:32 > 0:36:36are dangerous left-wingers who'd ruin this country and take
0:36:36 > 0:36:39us back to the 1970s.
0:36:40 > 0:36:41APPLAUSE.
0:36:41 > 0:36:49However, I would just like to thank the Scottish Nationalist party
0:36:49 > 0:36:53because twice in my lifetime, the Scottish Nationalist party,
0:36:53 > 0:36:58their policy on the constitution back in the late 70s,
0:36:58 > 0:37:02they brought down a Labour Government and made it possible
0:37:02 > 0:37:04for us to get Margaret Thatcher as Prime Minister.
0:37:04 > 0:37:07Rubbish.
0:37:07 > 0:37:10And at the last general election, by insisting on a second referendum,
0:37:10 > 0:37:14we managed to get 13 Conservative MPs, 13 Conservative MPs elected
0:37:14 > 0:37:19to Westminster which saved us.
0:37:19 > 0:37:26APPLAUSE.
0:37:26 > 0:37:28We won the election.
0:37:28 > 0:37:30APPLAUSE.
0:37:30 > 0:37:32The question is not about the SNP, it's about Labour and Momentum.
0:37:32 > 0:37:33Maggie?
0:37:33 > 0:37:36Just to pick up a couple of things that have been said.
0:37:36 > 0:37:39I think it was George Osborne who said he wanted to reduce public
0:37:39 > 0:37:43sector spending to 1930s levels, so I mean, that kind of austerity
0:37:43 > 0:37:47that we've experienced at the hand of the Tories doesn't
0:37:47 > 0:37:49bear thinking about.
0:37:49 > 0:37:52I think many people support quite a lot of what Momentum
0:37:52 > 0:37:55and Jeremy Corbyn are trying to do, but to say that the Greens
0:37:55 > 0:37:58are propping up an austerity Government in Scotland is ludicrous.
0:37:58 > 0:37:59APPLAUSE.
0:37:59 > 0:38:02In Scotland, last year, the Scottish Greens got
0:38:02 > 0:38:06the biggest ever concession out of a Scottish Government
0:38:06 > 0:38:08in the budget process.
0:38:08 > 0:38:11We stopped £160 million worth of cuts in Scotland.
0:38:11 > 0:38:13Labour sat by and did nothing.
0:38:13 > 0:38:16We put income tax up for the highest owners,
0:38:16 > 0:38:19the vast majority of people in Scotland will pay less tax.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22Scotland will be the lowest taxed area of the UK for normal people.
0:38:22 > 0:38:25APPLAUSE.
0:38:25 > 0:38:29OK.
0:38:29 > 0:38:33I do understand why but we keep sliding away from the Labour Party
0:38:33 > 0:38:35at Westminster and Momentum into Scottish politics, but does
0:38:35 > 0:38:37anybody want to say a word about...
0:38:37 > 0:38:38We are in Scotland.
0:38:38 > 0:38:40I had noticed that funnily enough and it's Burns
0:38:40 > 0:38:42Night for that matter.
0:38:42 > 0:38:43We are knowingly in Dumfries.
0:38:43 > 0:38:47You, Sir, in the second row?
0:38:47 > 0:38:50I would like to ask a Labour MP, if your party is so big
0:38:50 > 0:38:54and powerful in coming forward, how come the best you have got
0:38:54 > 0:39:01to offer is Jeremy Corbyn?
0:39:01 > 0:39:02APPLAUSE.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04In my humble opinion, Jeremy Corbyn is the best leader
0:39:04 > 0:39:06that the Labour Party's ever produced and would be
0:39:06 > 0:39:10the greatest Prime Minister this country's ever seen.
0:39:10 > 0:39:13He'll have a reforming agenda that will make this country work
0:39:13 > 0:39:16for ordinary people and eradicate poverty and have an economy that
0:39:16 > 0:39:19actually gives people a stake in society, a decent future,
0:39:19 > 0:39:21decent pension and decent public services.
0:39:21 > 0:39:26What's not the like about that?
0:39:26 > 0:39:30I can remember what it was like when the Labour Party
0:39:30 > 0:39:36left office in 2010.
0:39:36 > 0:39:38Debt, bills not paid and notes to say good luck Conservative.
0:39:38 > 0:39:40There's no money left.
0:39:40 > 0:39:43APPLAUSE.
0:39:43 > 0:39:46I'm old enough to remember what it was like when the public
0:39:46 > 0:39:50utilities in the '70s were in most of Labour's hands, strike
0:39:50 > 0:39:54after strike after all-out, all-out and everything
0:39:54 > 0:39:57in the intercity.
0:39:57 > 0:39:58You talk about trains.
0:39:58 > 0:39:59Intercity.
0:39:59 > 0:40:01You've got a short memory.
0:40:01 > 0:40:05The Conservatives doubled that.
0:40:05 > 0:40:06The man at the back?
0:40:06 > 0:40:09Then we'll move on.
0:40:09 > 0:40:12Utilities are actually state-owned.
0:40:12 > 0:40:15The energy market is owned by the French government mainly,
0:40:15 > 0:40:20your railways are owned by the Dutch and German government
0:40:20 > 0:40:23and the Royal Mail's part owned by the German government
0:40:23 > 0:40:26so they are state owned, just not Great Britain that owns them.
0:40:26 > 0:40:27APPLAUSE.
0:40:27 > 0:40:31OK.
0:40:31 > 0:40:33All right, let's go on.
0:40:33 > 0:40:36David James, let's have your question, please?
0:40:36 > 0:40:39During Brexit we'll have a pro-British US President.
0:40:39 > 0:40:44Isn't that tremendous?
0:40:44 > 0:40:45OK.
0:40:45 > 0:40:48This is in the light presumably of Donald Trump at Davos today
0:40:48 > 0:40:54saying there is going to be a tremendous increase in trade
0:40:54 > 0:40:56between Britain and America and we love your country.
0:40:56 > 0:40:57Who'd like to start on this?
0:40:57 > 0:40:59Peter Oborne?
0:40:59 > 0:41:01Absolutely tremendous.
0:41:01 > 0:41:05I think that it's in the national interest that we should
0:41:05 > 0:41:07have excellent relations with the United States of America.
0:41:07 > 0:41:09They've long been our closest allie, they are going
0:41:09 > 0:41:15to be our trading allie.
0:41:15 > 0:41:18Mr Trump, massive issues about Mr Trump, he's
0:41:18 > 0:41:19a foul, he's a racist...
0:41:19 > 0:41:24APPLAUSE.
0:41:24 > 0:41:28He's a danger I think in particular to America more than the world
0:41:28 > 0:41:32I think actually but it does not mean that Britain should not
0:41:32 > 0:41:37welcome him in which we are hearing there'll be a visit later this year.
0:41:37 > 0:41:41I can't help noticing, when you read the grand
0:41:41 > 0:41:44media of panjandrums.
0:41:44 > 0:41:45You are one of them aren't you?
0:41:45 > 0:41:48Not quite.
0:41:48 > 0:41:50Not the grandest?
0:41:50 > 0:41:54And President Macron of France, he announces he's going to a state
0:41:54 > 0:41:57visit with Trump, everybody said isn't Macron marvellous
0:41:57 > 0:42:03and sue superb, isn't he brilliant at pursuing
0:42:03 > 0:42:06visit with Trump, everybody said isn't Macron marvellous and superb,
0:42:06 > 0:42:08isn't he brilliant at pursuing French national interests.
0:42:08 > 0:42:10But when it's suggested that Theresa May should do
0:42:10 > 0:42:13the same thing with Trump, exactly the same people condemn her.
0:42:13 > 0:42:14APPLAUSE.
0:42:14 > 0:42:19Do you think Trump is pro-British in the sense that it will help us
0:42:19 > 0:42:23with trade deals despite...
0:42:23 > 0:42:59For all of his many faults, Trump's got a Scottish mother.
0:43:00 > 0:43:03Bot and the significance of that? I've got a Scottish mother, it's
0:43:03 > 0:43:03significant, I
0:43:08 > 0:43:12I think the idea that somebody else will have preferential treatment
0:43:12 > 0:43:17will be secondary, absolutely to the protectionism of Donald Trump for
0:43:17 > 0:43:21his interests. And whatever it may be. The issue we have on trade, and
0:43:21 > 0:43:28this is the real problem, is if it's a race to the bottom on whether it's
0:43:28 > 0:43:31workers rights, regulations or whether it's on agriculture, premium
0:43:31 > 0:43:37agriculture that we have, if we have flooded US produce that could ruin
0:43:37 > 0:43:41our ago cultural sector, that is something that is a very serious
0:43:41 > 0:43:44implication, not just of our relationship with Donald Trump but
0:43:44 > 0:43:48what type of deal would the UK try to pursue with Donald Trump because
0:43:48 > 0:43:53they'll be desperate to get one because it looks as if there is no
0:43:53 > 0:43:57prospect for all the wonderful free trade deals. It doesn't seem as
0:43:57 > 0:44:02though that will be an option. Single customs union will protect
0:44:02 > 0:44:13our interests and agriculture and economy as well.
0:44:13 > 0:44:19economy as well.You there?I agree with Fiona. I think Donald Trump
0:44:19 > 0:44:24will be bad for business. I'm thinking of Bombardier. That's the
0:44:24 > 0:44:29thin end of the wedge. Agriculture and things like that, they'll force
0:44:29 > 0:44:34the type of food on that we do not really want in this country.
0:44:34 > 0:44:39The woman at the back?
0:44:43 > 0:44:50As an American citizen, I urge you to watch your backs.Why so?Because
0:44:50 > 0:44:54I think Trump is a villain and I think he will manipulate Britain
0:44:54 > 0:44:57into trade deals they can't extricate themselves from, and
0:44:57 > 0:45:00Britain will be the loser.
0:45:00 > 0:45:01David James, what do you think?
0:45:01 > 0:45:05I see Mr Trump as a fairly emotional person.
0:45:05 > 0:45:08I think we have a great opportunity here because of his Scottish
0:45:08 > 0:45:09and British connection.
0:45:09 > 0:45:13I think if we are friendly to him, he will be a better friend to us
0:45:13 > 0:45:14than Jean-Claude Juncker has been.
0:45:14 > 0:45:15OK.
0:45:15 > 0:45:19Chris Williamson.
0:45:19 > 0:45:22Well, you know, I'm very suspicious, and I think wise words
0:45:22 > 0:45:25from our American friend at the back of the audience there.
0:45:25 > 0:45:27I remember at his inauguration, Donald Trump saying,
0:45:27 > 0:45:28remember, "America first, America first".
0:45:28 > 0:45:32We are in a parlous position, and this government is in a parlous
0:45:32 > 0:45:37position, a very weak position, if we think our salvation
0:45:37 > 0:45:39is negotiating a trade deal with the United States
0:45:39 > 0:45:42of America under Donald Trump.
0:45:42 > 0:45:44It would be a disaster for this country.
0:45:44 > 0:45:46And we need, in my view, to work more closely
0:45:46 > 0:45:49with our colleagues in Europe, to ensure that we have access
0:45:49 > 0:45:52to the single market.
0:45:52 > 0:45:56That is the biggest market in the world.
0:45:56 > 0:45:59That's what we need to be doing, rather than this nonsense of trying
0:45:59 > 0:46:03to negotiate some sort of a deal with the Americans.
0:46:03 > 0:46:07Michael Forsyth.
0:46:07 > 0:46:09Isn't it tremendous that we have a pro-British US
0:46:09 > 0:46:11President during Brexit, was the question.
0:46:11 > 0:46:14Actually, in the main, US Presidents are pro-British.
0:46:14 > 0:46:16We have a very strong alliance with the United States.
0:46:16 > 0:46:21We depend on each other for security in Europe and the Western world.
0:46:21 > 0:46:24But I think we need to look just beyond America.
0:46:24 > 0:46:31I mean, it's Burns Night, and his address to the Dumfries Volunteers,
0:46:31 > 0:46:33do you remember it?
0:46:33 > 0:46:37"Be Briton still to Britain true, among ourselves united.
0:46:37 > 0:46:42"For never but with British hands will British wrongs be righted".
0:46:42 > 0:46:44We don't need the President of the United States in order
0:46:44 > 0:46:46to survive as a country.
0:46:46 > 0:46:50When we've left the European Union, we will be able to do business
0:46:50 > 0:46:51with the rest of the world.
0:46:51 > 0:46:54And just as Donald Trump wants to do his best
0:46:54 > 0:46:56for America, so we should do our best for Britain.
0:46:56 > 0:46:57That's my view.
0:46:57 > 0:47:04APPLAUSE
0:47:04 > 0:47:05Maggie Chapman.
0:47:05 > 0:47:07I think some of the real danger of potential trade
0:47:07 > 0:47:11deals with America are, as Fiona says, a reduction
0:47:11 > 0:47:15in environmental standards, a reduction in human rights,
0:47:15 > 0:47:17in workers' rights.
0:47:17 > 0:47:22Because, as the woman at the back as well said earlier,
0:47:22 > 0:47:23Trump will negotiate in his interests and
0:47:23 > 0:47:25his interests alone.
0:47:25 > 0:47:28They are not going to be in the interests of workers here.
0:47:28 > 0:47:31They are not going to be in the interests of companies
0:47:31 > 0:47:33and providers and people who support the British economy.
0:47:33 > 0:47:39It's his bottom line that matters to him, and that is it.
0:47:39 > 0:47:41And are you impressed by the accord there seemed to be
0:47:41 > 0:47:44between the Prime Minister and the President today at Davos?
0:47:44 > 0:47:46Does it impress me?
0:47:46 > 0:47:47Are your withers wrung by that?
0:47:47 > 0:47:49No.
0:47:49 > 0:47:50No, OK.
0:47:50 > 0:47:51Does anything impress you?
0:47:51 > 0:47:56Lots impresses me, when it's worthy of being impressed by, yes.
0:47:56 > 0:47:59The person up there on the far left, yes.
0:47:59 > 0:48:03In Scotland, we've already got our own two mini Trump trade deals.
0:48:03 > 0:48:08We've got two golf courses that don't make any profits,
0:48:08 > 0:48:11that have failed to deliver on the jobs that they were promised,
0:48:11 > 0:48:18and that are actually claiming small business rates relief,
0:48:18 > 0:48:20so they are not contributing at all.
0:48:20 > 0:48:21And you, sir, on the gangway here.
0:48:21 > 0:48:25The man in the white shirt.
0:48:25 > 0:48:27By the time this government's got Brexit sorted out,
0:48:27 > 0:48:29Donald Trump will be long gone.
0:48:29 > 0:48:30All right.
0:48:30 > 0:48:34OK, let's go on to another question.
0:48:34 > 0:48:36All right, a brief point from you, sir.
0:48:36 > 0:48:39Do we really need to be negotiating with a man who would have
0:48:39 > 0:48:41attended a men-only event, and also would allow it
0:48:41 > 0:48:42in one of his hotels?
0:48:42 > 0:48:50Right.
0:48:50 > 0:48:53I want to go on to this question from Robert Jardine, please.
0:48:53 > 0:48:55It's a question that we've had in a number
0:48:55 > 0:48:56of places on Question Time.
0:48:56 > 0:48:57We've never actually addressed it.
0:48:57 > 0:49:01Let's have your question.
0:49:01 > 0:49:04Should the closing of the bank branches not be more
0:49:04 > 0:49:06than a commercial decision, especially in a rural
0:49:06 > 0:49:08area like this?
0:49:08 > 0:49:16APPLAUSE
0:49:16 > 0:49:21We know that the closure of banks is causing real hardship
0:49:21 > 0:49:24and trouble to people.
0:49:24 > 0:49:25Should it be more than a commercial decision?
0:49:25 > 0:49:28Should there be some intervention to stop it happening?
0:49:28 > 0:49:29Michael Forsyth, you're a banker.
0:49:29 > 0:49:32I don't know whether you bank in that kind of banking world.
0:49:32 > 0:49:34Am I allowed to do a show of hands?
0:49:34 > 0:49:36If I did a show of hands...
0:49:36 > 0:49:37No, you aren't.
0:49:37 > 0:49:39You know what happens to people who try and do show
0:49:39 > 0:49:40of hands on this programme.
0:49:40 > 0:49:41They are expelled.
0:49:41 > 0:49:44If I had been allowed to do a show of hands,
0:49:44 > 0:49:47I would have asked people to say how many people had visited
0:49:47 > 0:49:48their branch in the last month.
0:49:48 > 0:49:50Maybe they haven't got a branch.
0:49:50 > 0:49:51Well, indeed.
0:49:51 > 0:49:54They do have a branch of their bank, and the fact is that increasingly
0:49:54 > 0:49:56we are not using bank branches.
0:49:56 > 0:49:58But having said that, in rural areas, just like post offices,
0:49:58 > 0:50:00the banks are really very important.
0:50:00 > 0:50:07And what we need to do is to try and get some arrangement
0:50:07 > 0:50:09where we can get services, perhaps through a community shop
0:50:09 > 0:50:11or other, and remove some of the rigidities
0:50:11 > 0:50:12there are between services.
0:50:12 > 0:50:13That's the best I can offer.
0:50:13 > 0:50:16But you can't expect the banks to run services which people
0:50:16 > 0:50:17are no longer using.
0:50:17 > 0:50:22More people are online.
0:50:22 > 0:50:24More people do not go to their bank as such,
0:50:24 > 0:50:27and I just think it would be great to have the past, but it's
0:50:27 > 0:50:29just no longer possible because the world has changed.
0:50:29 > 0:50:31RBS are closing 259.
0:50:31 > 0:50:33We had the RBS chairman in last week.
0:50:33 > 0:50:34We didn't get the question.
0:50:34 > 0:50:37You, sir, what do you think?
0:50:37 > 0:50:40I think closing all these banks, if you take this area
0:50:40 > 0:50:46from Stranraer to Berwick, you mentioned the Royal Bank
0:50:46 > 0:50:49of Scotland, I think there is only going to be either one
0:50:49 > 0:50:51or two in that area, the whole width of Dumfries
0:50:51 > 0:50:53and Galloway and the Scottish Borders.
0:50:53 > 0:50:55The people that use those banks are probably not
0:50:55 > 0:50:57people that use online.
0:50:57 > 0:51:01Disabled, people who are out in the country with no
0:51:01 > 0:51:02connection to online.
0:51:02 > 0:51:06And I think you're taking away from the rural area.
0:51:06 > 0:51:09But could we not do something with the post offices?
0:51:09 > 0:51:12Maggie Chapman.
0:51:12 > 0:51:16There are a couple of issues in this and I absolutely agree with you.
0:51:16 > 0:51:17This is an example...
0:51:17 > 0:51:22RBS, which is actually a public bank at the moment, remember that.
0:51:22 > 0:51:25RBS has been slimmed down so it can be flogged off at rock bottom prices
0:51:25 > 0:51:27to the private sector, just like the British government
0:51:27 > 0:51:32did with Royal Mail.
0:51:32 > 0:51:35Remember, George Osborne's best man benefited from the sale
0:51:35 > 0:51:40of Royal Mail to the tune of tens of millions of pounds.
0:51:40 > 0:51:43That's what I'm really, really concerned is happening here.
0:51:43 > 0:51:46Sorry, you've lost me there.
0:51:46 > 0:51:51I don't know what George Osborne's best man has got to do with it.
0:51:51 > 0:51:52We're talking about banks and...
0:51:52 > 0:51:54It's been slimmed down so it can be sold off.
0:51:54 > 0:51:59The public are currently the biggest owners of Royal Bank.
0:51:59 > 0:52:00Yes.
0:52:00 > 0:52:02Do they want it to make a profit or not?
0:52:02 > 0:52:05Do you want to see RBS make a profit or not?
0:52:05 > 0:52:08If it's slimmed down like this, it's not going to be
0:52:08 > 0:52:10able to make a profit, and therefore it
0:52:10 > 0:52:11will be flogged off.
0:52:11 > 0:52:14The other real concern that I have is branches that
0:52:14 > 0:52:18are being closed down, particularly in rural areas.
0:52:18 > 0:52:21It's all very well to say people are moving online.
0:52:21 > 0:52:23It's rural areas with the weakest broadband, with the slowest
0:52:23 > 0:52:24internet connections.
0:52:24 > 0:52:26Where is the infrastructure investment for that?
0:52:26 > 0:52:31APPLAUSE
0:52:31 > 0:52:32Fiona Hyslop.
0:52:32 > 0:52:35Well, in terms of the Royal Bank of Scotland, they've already closed
0:52:35 > 0:52:40a good number of branches.
0:52:40 > 0:52:43I think the issue is that people are moving on to online banking.
0:52:43 > 0:52:45But there are basic issues around what businesses can do,
0:52:45 > 0:52:47particularly in rural areas, small businesses, reliant
0:52:47 > 0:52:53on regular deposits, and what they can do there.
0:52:53 > 0:52:56But the important thing here is they are not even
0:52:56 > 0:52:57doing it to save money.
0:52:57 > 0:52:59We've had evidence this week from the Royal Bank
0:52:59 > 0:53:01that they are not doing it to save money.
0:53:01 > 0:53:03What are they doing it for?
0:53:03 > 0:53:05They are doing it because they are trying to respond to customers
0:53:05 > 0:53:07who are moving more on digital.
0:53:07 > 0:53:10Therefore, the point of the question was should it be more
0:53:10 > 0:53:13than a consideration of commercial banking.
0:53:13 > 0:53:15Well, if it was a 100% privately owned bank, one thing,
0:53:15 > 0:53:18but if a government majority in terms of the ownership
0:53:18 > 0:53:23of that bank, that's a completely different question.
0:53:23 > 0:53:26And that's why I think the interests of the rural economies in particular
0:53:26 > 0:53:28have to be borne in mind.
0:53:28 > 0:53:31This idea that you can rely on the Post Office,
0:53:31 > 0:53:36I had a Royal Bank closed in my constituency in
0:53:36 > 0:53:37Whitburn in October.
0:53:37 > 0:53:39They hadn't even spoken to the Post Office at the beginning
0:53:39 > 0:53:42of the process to make sure that, one, there was disabled access,
0:53:42 > 0:53:45that the Post Office could be trained in all this.
0:53:45 > 0:53:48And if it's the last bank in town, remember that promise,
0:53:48 > 0:53:50the last bank in town?
0:53:50 > 0:53:53So I think there is a self interest in ensuring we can keep
0:53:53 > 0:53:56customers in rural areas, and yes, it's important we make
0:53:56 > 0:53:58sure that rural areas in particular are protected.
0:53:58 > 0:54:00I don't think they thought of that.
0:54:00 > 0:54:01OK, you, sir.
0:54:01 > 0:54:07I do use rural banks in this area as much as I can.
0:54:07 > 0:54:11And often I find that actually there is a queue.
0:54:11 > 0:54:13So the rural banks are used quite extensively.
0:54:13 > 0:54:16It seems really silly that they would be removed
0:54:16 > 0:54:21from local communities who really need as many services
0:54:21 > 0:54:25as they can get.
0:54:25 > 0:54:27You, sir, up there.
0:54:27 > 0:54:30I think the regulators need to be held accountable and brought in more
0:54:30 > 0:54:35responsibly to try and hold the banks to account,
0:54:35 > 0:54:40because clearly they are still conducting themselves however
0:54:40 > 0:54:41they see fit and self-interest.
0:54:41 > 0:54:42Peter Oborne.
0:54:42 > 0:54:45I can imagine a discussion going on in Dumfries in 1840.
0:54:45 > 0:54:51The railways have turned up, and there is a vigorous discussion
0:54:51 > 0:54:53about the need to keep horse and carriage businesses
0:54:53 > 0:54:57in operation.
0:54:57 > 0:55:00And the world is changing unbelievably fast.
0:55:00 > 0:55:05And I think the answer is not to try and sort of stay
0:55:05 > 0:55:12in a structure which has gone, but to look for creative solutions.
0:55:12 > 0:55:13OK.
0:55:13 > 0:55:15May I just make a point on that?
0:55:15 > 0:55:16No.
0:55:16 > 0:55:20Chris, very brief, if you would.
0:55:20 > 0:55:23Closing bank branches is not a creative solution, it seems to me.
0:55:23 > 0:55:25Look, the banks in this country seem to me to be behaving
0:55:25 > 0:55:26like corporate scroungers.
0:55:26 > 0:55:30It's not that long ago, is it, that they had their hand out
0:55:30 > 0:55:31for £350 billion of public money.
0:55:31 > 0:55:34So surely it's time for them to put something back, isn't it,
0:55:34 > 0:55:40into the local community?
0:55:40 > 0:55:42They make enough money, and they could quite easily provide
0:55:42 > 0:55:45this social service that is required still, there are long queues,
0:55:45 > 0:55:46as the gentleman has said.
0:55:46 > 0:55:48Let's keep the bank branches open.
0:55:48 > 0:55:50We have a minute and a half left.
0:55:50 > 0:55:53I will take a question from Doreen Reid, please and I'll
0:55:53 > 0:55:55whizz round the panel with it.
0:55:55 > 0:55:57In the current climate, does the panel think £500,000
0:55:57 > 0:56:03per week salary is appropriate for a professional sports person?
0:56:03 > 0:56:06This was the footballer who this week, I think, was signed up...
0:56:06 > 0:56:07Sanchez.
0:56:07 > 0:56:11Yes.
0:56:11 > 0:56:15Signed up for 500,000 a week for 52 weeks.
0:56:15 > 0:56:17Peter Oborne.
0:56:17 > 0:56:18What a week.
0:56:18 > 0:56:22Jimmy Armfield, that great servant of English football,
0:56:22 > 0:56:30played for England, £20 a week, honest as the day is long.
0:56:30 > 0:56:36And then £600,000 a week being paid.
0:56:36 > 0:56:38It is the market but it makes me very, very uneasy.
0:56:38 > 0:56:39Man U.
0:56:39 > 0:56:41I should have had that figure there.
0:56:41 > 0:56:42Sanchez.
0:56:42 > 0:56:44Yeah, Sanchez has gone from Arsenal to Man U,
0:56:44 > 0:56:46he's being paid 650,000 a week.
0:56:46 > 0:56:47It makes you feel a bit sick.
0:56:47 > 0:56:50When you consider that most of the people watching him play
0:56:50 > 0:56:52are probably on about 25 grand a year.
0:56:52 > 0:56:59They earn less in an hour than he does in a week.
0:56:59 > 0:57:00Is it appropriate?
0:57:00 > 0:57:02Just round the table, because we've got to stop.
0:57:02 > 0:57:03No.
0:57:03 > 0:57:05Is it appropriate?
0:57:05 > 0:57:06Completely inappropriate, and many of these Premiership clubs
0:57:06 > 0:57:09don't even pay the living wage to the people who actually keep
0:57:09 > 0:57:11the club going, so no, it's wrong.
0:57:11 > 0:57:13Is it the market, or is it appropriate?
0:57:13 > 0:57:17Well, provided he is paying tax at 45% plus National Insurance
0:57:17 > 0:57:20at 12% and employers National Insurance at 16%, yes,
0:57:20 > 0:57:22it is, because we need the money for the health service.
0:57:22 > 0:57:28CHEERING AND APPLAUSE.
0:57:28 > 0:57:29Very brief.
0:57:29 > 0:57:30Yes or no?
0:57:30 > 0:57:31No, it's absolutely not appropriate.
0:57:31 > 0:57:33We need a high pay commission, because high pay actually
0:57:33 > 0:57:35drives inequality.
0:57:35 > 0:57:36And because it's not taxed appropriately,
0:57:36 > 0:57:38and that's what we need to change.
0:57:38 > 0:57:41Inequality is the biggest problem that we are facing at the moment
0:57:41 > 0:57:43and that's what we need to tackle.
0:57:43 > 0:57:44All right, thanks.
0:57:44 > 0:57:47APPLAUSE
0:57:47 > 0:57:48That's it, I'm afraid.
0:57:48 > 0:57:50Time is up.
0:57:50 > 0:57:53Next Thursday we're going to be in Grantham.
0:57:53 > 0:57:56Justine Greening, the former Education Secretary,
0:57:56 > 0:57:59who refused to be shunted by the Prime Minister
0:57:59 > 0:58:01at the recent reshuffle, is going to be there.
0:58:01 > 0:58:03The week after that we are going to be in Darlington.
0:58:03 > 0:58:05So Grantham, then Darlington.
0:58:05 > 0:58:06There's the number on the screen to call.
0:58:06 > 0:58:09Or you can go to the website and apply there, which
0:58:09 > 0:58:12you may find easier.
0:58:12 > 0:58:15If you want to have your say, your further say on the things
0:58:15 > 0:58:18we have been talking about tonight, you can join
0:58:18 > 0:58:20Question Time Extra Time, which is on BBC 5 Live,
0:58:20 > 0:58:23on Radio 5 Live.
0:58:23 > 0:58:26Equally, if you want to see it at the end of this programme you can
0:58:26 > 0:58:30now press the red button and it's there in vision as well.
0:58:30 > 0:58:31Or you can go to the BBC iPlayer.
0:58:31 > 0:58:35All that fun and games to go on for the rest of the evening.
0:58:35 > 0:58:39But here, on this Burns Night, we are all waiting to go
0:58:39 > 0:58:41and celebrate with the haggis and a wee dram.
0:58:41 > 0:58:45I thank the panel here and all of you who came
0:58:45 > 0:58:46to the programme tonight.
0:58:46 > 0:58:47Thank you very much indeed.
0:58:47 > 0:58:54Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night.