0:00:04 > 0:00:11Tonight we are in Grantham, and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:16 > 0:00:20And with us tonight, the former Education Secretary
0:00:20 > 0:00:23who chose to leave the Cabinet in the January reshuffle rather
0:00:23 > 0:00:26than take a different job, Conservative MP Justine Greening.
0:00:26 > 0:00:29The Labour MP John Mann, who voted in favour of Brexit
0:00:29 > 0:00:34and who thinks Jeremy Corbyn may not lead Labour into the next election.
0:00:34 > 0:00:36The Deputy Leader of the Liberal Democrats,
0:00:36 > 0:00:38Business and Equalities Minister in David Cameron's coalition
0:00:38 > 0:00:41government, Jo Swinson.
0:00:41 > 0:00:43And economist and former adviser to Ed Miliband,
0:00:43 > 0:00:46who came to this country as an asylum seeker fleeing the war
0:00:46 > 0:00:53in Liberia, Miatta Fahnbulleh.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55And the columnist and writer for the Daily Telegraph
0:00:55 > 0:01:01and the Catholic Herald, Tim Stanley.
0:01:11 > 0:01:12Good.
0:01:12 > 0:01:13Good.
0:01:13 > 0:01:14Thanks very much.
0:01:14 > 0:01:17Remember, at home, of course, if you want to take issue
0:01:17 > 0:01:19with what's being said here, #BBCQT on Twitter, Facebook,
0:01:19 > 0:01:22and you can engage in the debate.
0:01:22 > 0:01:25Let's have our first question.
0:01:25 > 0:01:27Amanda Byrne, let's have your question, please.
0:01:27 > 0:01:34Are Theresa May's days numbered, and who is fit to take her place?
0:01:34 > 0:01:37Are Theresa May's days...
0:01:37 > 0:01:39Tim Stanley?
0:01:39 > 0:01:41Yes, I think they are, and I would listen to the growing
0:01:41 > 0:01:45chorus among MPs and the growing feeling that she hasn't quite got
0:01:45 > 0:01:48what it takes to see this country through to a very successful Brexit,
0:01:48 > 0:01:53and a Brexit which seizes all opportunities that come with it.
0:01:53 > 0:01:54I'll put my cards on the table.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56I'm a Brexiteer.
0:01:56 > 0:01:58I supported her when she said Brexit means Brexit.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01That was good enough for me.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03But we have seen, the last year, that she didn't
0:02:03 > 0:02:06really believe in it.
0:02:06 > 0:02:07There was a basic tragedy.
0:02:07 > 0:02:09Brexiteers won the referendum but they lost the Tory
0:02:09 > 0:02:11leadership election.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14And the Tory party was taken over and the government was taken over
0:02:14 > 0:02:18by someone who saw Brexit not as an opportunity but as a risk
0:02:18 > 0:02:22that they had to guide the country through.
0:02:22 > 0:02:24And that lost momentum in the general election.
0:02:24 > 0:02:28It lost the Tories their majority.
0:02:28 > 0:02:31It led to a very, very poor performance at the conference,
0:02:31 > 0:02:36and increasingly there is growing disquiet among MPs that she simply
0:02:36 > 0:02:41hasn't got what it takes to see the country through this.
0:02:41 > 0:02:46Now, her counterargument is, precisely because the arithmetic
0:02:46 > 0:02:48in Parliament is so close, you need someone like her,
0:02:48 > 0:02:51who can swim between the soft and hard options of Brexit,
0:02:51 > 0:02:53someone who simply isn't as offensive as either alternative.
0:02:53 > 0:02:57But that's not the right approach to take towards Brexit.
0:02:57 > 0:03:00You don't just chase a consensus in this country,
0:03:00 > 0:03:04you try and build one.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07And I'm afraid everything we've discovered in the last year is that
0:03:07 > 0:03:09Theresa May simply doesn't have the political skills necessary
0:03:09 > 0:03:11to explain Brexit to people and to achieve the best
0:03:11 > 0:03:14outcome from it.
0:03:14 > 0:03:23APPLAUSE
0:03:24 > 0:03:25Justine Greening.
0:03:25 > 0:03:27You had a run-in with her just last month.
0:03:27 > 0:03:28What do you think?
0:03:28 > 0:03:31I think she's got an incredibly challenging job as Prime Minister
0:03:31 > 0:03:33and I think people need to get behind her.
0:03:33 > 0:03:37APPLAUSE
0:03:37 > 0:03:41It is a unique time for our country.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44People want a Prime Minister that will steer us through this
0:03:44 > 0:03:46period of uncertainty, but I'm afraid those soundings off
0:03:46 > 0:03:49that we hear just make that harder, frankly.
0:03:49 > 0:03:52So I think people need to get behind her and I think
0:03:52 > 0:03:54that we need to remember, frankly, and I've been
0:03:54 > 0:03:57in Parliament for 12 years, that whether it was Tony Blair,
0:03:57 > 0:04:00Gordon Brown, people like John Major before my time,
0:04:00 > 0:04:04there are always going to be MPs that will run off to the papers
0:04:04 > 0:04:07and bad-mouth a PM.
0:04:07 > 0:04:12That is part of the territory of the job, but frankly,
0:04:12 > 0:04:15I think we need to get behind her and support her doing
0:04:15 > 0:04:17an incredibly important job on behalf of our country.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20The obvious question to ask then is, if you feel that strongly,
0:04:20 > 0:04:23why didn't you accept what she offered you and stay
0:04:23 > 0:04:25in the Cabinet to support her from inside government?
0:04:25 > 0:04:29APPLAUSE
0:04:29 > 0:04:32Because in the end, for me, it was not about having a job.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35I didn't come into politics in terms of whether I had a role or not.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38I came into politics because I care passionately that it shouldn't
0:04:38 > 0:04:41matter where you are growing up in this country, you have the same
0:04:41 > 0:04:47equal opportunities to make the most of yourself.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50That's what I was able to pursue in the Department for Education,
0:04:50 > 0:04:52but I've been very clear, frankly, that you can do that
0:04:52 > 0:04:53from outside government as well.
0:04:53 > 0:04:56But if you were supporting the Prime Minister, if you feel
0:04:56 > 0:04:59she's in difficulty, if you feel Brexit is a big problem,
0:04:59 > 0:05:01if you feel everybody should be behind her,
0:05:01 > 0:05:03you didn't do your bit by publicly refusing to do
0:05:03 > 0:05:05what she asked you to do.
0:05:05 > 0:05:07That's the question.
0:05:07 > 0:05:10I don't agree with that at all, and actually there was no rancour
0:05:10 > 0:05:12whatsoever between myself and the Prime Minister.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15It's not rancour between you and the Prime Minister,
0:05:15 > 0:05:17it's the public image of you refusing to do
0:05:17 > 0:05:20what she wanted, like the Secretary of State for Health refused to do
0:05:20 > 0:05:22what she wanted.
0:05:22 > 0:05:24It gave exactly the impression of a Prime Minister who wasn't
0:05:24 > 0:05:28completely in control.
0:05:28 > 0:05:29I don't...
0:05:29 > 0:05:34I do not agree that a member of Parliament that comes
0:05:34 > 0:05:37into Parliament in order to achieve things for their community
0:05:37 > 0:05:38and their country, and puts that, frankly, ahead
0:05:38 > 0:05:40of any particular role...
0:05:40 > 0:05:42I've done four ministerial roles, I could have had a fifth ministerial
0:05:42 > 0:05:45role, a fourth role in Cabinet.
0:05:45 > 0:05:50But that's not what I was interested in doing and, frankly,
0:05:50 > 0:05:53I could have put that first but I preferred to continue working
0:05:53 > 0:05:57on the issues that I think matter to this country.
0:05:57 > 0:06:00And dare I say, David, as well, I think for all of the debate
0:06:00 > 0:06:04that we are having on Brexit, the sorts of fundamental challenges
0:06:04 > 0:06:07around the fact that where you grow up still determines how
0:06:07 > 0:06:11well you can do in life, those challenges absolutely need
0:06:11 > 0:06:13to be confronted and dealt with.
0:06:13 > 0:06:16And part of the problem in government is people
0:06:16 > 0:06:17do get moved around.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20That is one of the reasons why we never have the kind
0:06:20 > 0:06:23of stickability on this sort of policy to really see it through.
0:06:23 > 0:06:28And I'm prepared to be somebody who takes a decision about seeing
0:06:28 > 0:06:31through the fact that we have to become a country where there
0:06:31 > 0:06:34is equality of opportunity for all of our young people wherever
0:06:34 > 0:06:36they are growing up.
0:06:36 > 0:06:41APPLAUSE
0:06:41 > 0:06:43Miatta Fahnbulleh.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45You've worked in Downing Street, you worked for Blair,
0:06:45 > 0:06:47worked for Brown, you've seen what it's like from the inside.
0:06:47 > 0:06:50Do you think her days are numbered as Prime Minister?
0:06:50 > 0:06:53Look, I don't think it's for me to say whether Theresa May
0:06:53 > 0:06:55should stay or not.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57I think it's a decision for her...
0:06:57 > 0:06:59It's a question for observation, whether you think...
0:06:59 > 0:07:02And those in the Conservative Party that may or may not nudge her out.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05But for me the real tragedy in all of this is that
0:07:05 > 0:07:09I remember her on the streets of Downing Street and I remember her
0:07:09 > 0:07:12talking to the country, talking about the struggles that
0:07:12 > 0:07:15people were facing, talking about the fact the people she called
0:07:15 > 0:07:18the just about managing, the fact that they were
0:07:18 > 0:07:21struggling to make ends meet, struggling to pay their bills,
0:07:21 > 0:07:27the prospects for their kids weren't getting better.
0:07:27 > 0:07:28And I was quite encouraged by that.
0:07:28 > 0:07:31And I think the real frustration is that she has absolutely failed
0:07:31 > 0:07:34to tackle any of those issues.
0:07:34 > 0:07:38And time and time again she talks the talk, and then when it
0:07:38 > 0:07:41comes to actually acting, she completely bottles it.
0:07:41 > 0:07:43So on housing, and social mobility, on pay,
0:07:43 > 0:07:48the rhetoric has just not matched up to the reality.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51So if she wants to stay, if she wants to lead the country,
0:07:51 > 0:07:54if she wants to govern the country, fine, but get on with it.
0:07:54 > 0:07:57Lead, govern, take action.
0:07:57 > 0:08:02APPLAUSE
0:08:02 > 0:08:04I'll come back to the panel in a moment.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07The man in the spectacles up there, what do you think?
0:08:07 > 0:08:09You've come to Grantham this evening, the home
0:08:09 > 0:08:11of Margaret Thatcher.
0:08:11 > 0:08:14She once said, "I don't mind how much my ministers talk,
0:08:14 > 0:08:18so long as they do what I say".
0:08:18 > 0:08:21Would even Margaret Thatcher have been able to lead
0:08:21 > 0:08:24the Conservative Party that don't know whether they want
0:08:24 > 0:08:27Brexit or Breno?
0:08:27 > 0:08:29And what do you think?
0:08:29 > 0:08:31I think she would have had difficulty with the party
0:08:31 > 0:08:33as it is at the moment.
0:08:33 > 0:08:35And you, sir.
0:08:35 > 0:08:38I think the main problem she's got is she's not delivering a clear
0:08:38 > 0:08:41message about Brexit.
0:08:41 > 0:08:43Nobody in Europe understands what she wants.
0:08:43 > 0:08:44The British people voted.
0:08:44 > 0:08:46We know what we want.
0:08:46 > 0:08:48We want control of immigration, control of our own laws,
0:08:48 > 0:08:51and we want to work with Europe but we don't want to be
0:08:51 > 0:08:53dictated to by Europe.
0:08:53 > 0:08:54Europe's become a dictatorship.
0:08:54 > 0:08:58We may come to a bit of that later, but do you think her days
0:08:58 > 0:09:00are numbered as Prime Minister?
0:09:00 > 0:09:02No.
0:09:02 > 0:09:06If she comes out with a clear message and whips them
0:09:06 > 0:09:07all into line and follow her.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10She needs to come out and tell them what we want,
0:09:10 > 0:09:12because they don't know what we want.
0:09:12 > 0:09:13They know what they want.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16They want our money and they want to keep us on the sort of strings
0:09:16 > 0:09:18that we are on at the minute.
0:09:18 > 0:09:20They're not going to give us anything.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23They're going to give us as little as they can get away with and take
0:09:23 > 0:09:25as much money as they can.
0:09:25 > 0:09:26John Mann.
0:09:26 > 0:09:27I feel sorry for her.
0:09:27 > 0:09:29I mean she is an ardent Remainer.
0:09:29 > 0:09:30Ardent.
0:09:30 > 0:09:32And she hasn't changed her view on that.
0:09:32 > 0:09:34One of the ironies is, of course, that Jeremy has always
0:09:34 > 0:09:38been very Eurosceptical, so you've got this ardent
0:09:38 > 0:09:41Remainer trying to push through what the people have,
0:09:41 > 0:09:44rightly in my view, voted for.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47But whether she thinks it's right or not, that's the mandate
0:09:47 > 0:09:52that we have as politicians.
0:09:52 > 0:09:54And the vultures are now circling around her Defence Secretary,
0:09:54 > 0:09:58Gavin Williamson, with the media running around demanding
0:09:58 > 0:10:00answers from him.
0:10:00 > 0:10:03So let's see whether he gets answers, whether he remains.
0:10:03 > 0:10:05She's accident prone.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09However, I think her weakness is actually her strength
0:10:09 > 0:10:12in terms of staying on.
0:10:12 > 0:10:14The Tory party's terrified of getting rid of her.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16They know what will happen if there's an election
0:10:16 > 0:10:17in the foreseeable future.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19They will lose.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23And they are absolutely terrified, of her going.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26None of them have got the bottle to get rid of her.
0:10:26 > 0:10:29They all want to brief against, they all want rid of her,
0:10:29 > 0:10:30they all think she's no good.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33Actually, in the real political world, that's her
0:10:33 > 0:10:36strength in surviving.
0:10:36 > 0:10:38But you're not better for Jeremy Corbyn, are you?
0:10:38 > 0:10:42You're always saying, "You're too old, he won't make it through".
0:10:42 > 0:10:44Now, David, if you believe everything you read
0:10:44 > 0:10:46in the Daily Mail...
0:10:46 > 0:10:50You should be better prepared than that.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53OK, don't try that game on me.
0:10:53 > 0:10:56I'm reading what you said on the 27th of January to the Jewish
0:10:56 > 0:10:59Labour Movement conference.
0:10:59 > 0:11:01"The next election in 2022, by which stage", I hope
0:11:01 > 0:11:04you are blushing, "Jeremy Corbyn will be 73 and facing the prospect
0:11:04 > 0:11:09of being Prime Minister at 78, so I don't think he'll be doing it".
0:11:09 > 0:11:10And that was...
0:11:10 > 0:11:12It wasn't in January, that was in September.
0:11:12 > 0:11:18It was the 3rd of September and it was in response to a question
0:11:18 > 0:11:20of, "Do you think you'll be there or not"?
0:11:20 > 0:11:22And my view is that politicians are finding it harder
0:11:22 > 0:11:26and harder to continue.
0:11:26 > 0:11:29I certainly don't intend to be there at the age of 75.
0:11:29 > 0:11:30But that's his choice.
0:11:30 > 0:11:34And he'll decide that.
0:11:34 > 0:11:37No one in the Labour Party is going to be getting rid of him.
0:11:37 > 0:11:41And when it comes to the election, people are going to be looking
0:11:41 > 0:11:43at everything else that hasn't happened, as well as the mess that
0:11:43 > 0:11:45Theresa May is making of Brexit.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48They're going to be looking at the NHS, at the economy,
0:11:48 > 0:11:50at their own standards of living and coming to a judgment.
0:11:50 > 0:11:54And I tell you, the Tory party is terrified of getting rid of her,
0:11:54 > 0:11:57and therefore, actually, I think the likelihood
0:11:57 > 0:12:01of her being got rid of by then in the next year is virtually nil.
0:12:01 > 0:12:03They'll keep her because of her weakness.
0:12:03 > 0:12:10The woman in the fourth row.
0:12:10 > 0:12:11She's a woman with an impossible task.
0:12:11 > 0:12:13It's impossible to get a good Brexit.
0:12:13 > 0:12:15Under the government's own analysis on the best case scenario,
0:12:15 > 0:12:20700,000 job losses.
0:12:20 > 0:12:21That's what we're facing.
0:12:21 > 0:12:24It's absolutely not nonsense.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26It's not nonsense.
0:12:26 > 0:12:28That is the government's own analysis that was
0:12:28 > 0:12:31leaked recently.
0:12:31 > 0:12:37Yes, because they are too scared to bring it out.
0:12:37 > 0:12:38I'll come to you.
0:12:38 > 0:12:41David Davis, he lied.
0:12:41 > 0:12:44He lied about the government's own analysis.
0:12:44 > 0:12:46It was there.
0:12:46 > 0:12:49He did not bring it out.
0:12:49 > 0:12:52He should not be in government.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54700,000 jobless.
0:12:54 > 0:12:55Jo Swinson.
0:12:55 > 0:13:00To Amanda's initial question, are Theresa May's days numbered,
0:13:00 > 0:13:03undoubtedly, yes, because there is a very simple truth,
0:13:03 > 0:13:06which is that the Conservative Party is not going to let Theresa May
0:13:06 > 0:13:08fight another election.
0:13:08 > 0:13:10But I would just say be careful what you wish for,
0:13:10 > 0:13:13because the lady in the audience just now has said,
0:13:13 > 0:13:15about what David Davis did, I think he misled Parliament
0:13:15 > 0:13:16about these impact assessments.
0:13:16 > 0:13:18He said they are an excruciating detail.
0:13:18 > 0:13:21We've got Boris Johnson, who can't even read his brief
0:13:21 > 0:13:24when the life of a British woman in an Iranian jail depends on it.
0:13:24 > 0:13:30And we've got Jacob Rees-Mogg, who used to be something of a funny
0:13:30 > 0:13:32anomaly and now is a frightening prospect, really extreme views.
0:13:32 > 0:13:37The basic truth is, as various people have pointed out,
0:13:37 > 0:13:42the Tory party will not be led on Europe.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45Every previous Conservative Party leader has struggled to lead
0:13:45 > 0:13:47the Conservative Party on Europe and Theresa May is struggling
0:13:47 > 0:13:50to lead the Tory party on Europe.
0:13:50 > 0:13:54And the tragedy is that it would be a sideshow if they were just
0:13:54 > 0:13:57squabbling over there and it didn't matter, but the future
0:13:57 > 0:14:00of the country depends on it.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04This is the most complicated, huge change that this country
0:14:04 > 0:14:06is facing for decades, and we need a government
0:14:06 > 0:14:08that is up to the job.
0:14:08 > 0:14:10I think what the Tory party is doing is self-indulgent
0:14:10 > 0:14:13and the country deserves better.
0:14:13 > 0:14:17APPLAUSE
0:14:17 > 0:14:19Just to clarify, the country voted Brexit.
0:14:19 > 0:14:20You didn't.
0:14:20 > 0:14:23You criticise the Prime Minister.
0:14:23 > 0:14:25Presumably you'd like, from what you've just said,
0:14:25 > 0:14:28her to be an ardent Brexiteer.
0:14:28 > 0:14:29No, what I'm saying...
0:14:29 > 0:14:32That would be doing what the country wanted.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35I think actually if we look at the result there was a 52-48 split.
0:14:35 > 0:14:39What you saw was a very divided country.
0:14:39 > 0:14:42What you have not seen is a government that is determined
0:14:42 > 0:14:44to bring people together.
0:14:44 > 0:14:46What you've not seen is a government that said,
0:14:46 > 0:14:47here is a very close result.
0:14:47 > 0:14:50The country voted to leave, so let's try to respect that result
0:14:50 > 0:14:54and to leave in a way that also respects the wishes of the 48%
0:14:54 > 0:14:56of people who voted to remain in the European Union and that's
0:14:56 > 0:14:58not been the approach of this government.
0:14:58 > 0:15:00They've gone for the most extreme Brexit possible and it's
0:15:00 > 0:15:04going to really damage the country.
0:15:04 > 0:15:08We will come to Brexit and I will come to you when we come to Brexit.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10Let's just talk about the leadership of the Tory Party.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13Who do you want to see lead the Tory party,
0:15:13 > 0:15:14since you want her to go?
0:15:14 > 0:15:18By the way, some people might have found my tone in my first answer
0:15:18 > 0:15:21somewhat difficult and harsh, but I feel one has to be precisely
0:15:21 > 0:15:22because, when everyone discusses Theresa May,
0:15:22 > 0:15:23words like 'sympathy' come up.
0:15:23 > 0:15:27That is what's keeping her in place.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30What makes you think that anybody thought you were being harsh?
0:15:30 > 0:15:33Because I don't like saying it myself -Well, you said it.
0:15:33 > 0:15:34..because I respect the woman.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37I respect her because I think it's taken a remarkable degree
0:15:37 > 0:15:39of personal and political will - What I asked you is who...
0:15:39 > 0:15:42Well, leaving that aside, who do you want to see replace her?
0:15:42 > 0:15:45Whoever it is, they must be someone who is capable
0:15:45 > 0:15:46of leading the country towards the opportunities
0:15:46 > 0:15:47that Brexit offer.
0:15:47 > 0:15:49Therefore, I support a Brexiteer.
0:15:49 > 0:15:50It might be Boris Johnson.
0:15:50 > 0:15:51Oh!
0:15:51 > 0:15:54And precisely because you react that way, it might not be Boris Johnson.
0:15:54 > 0:15:55LAUGHTER.
0:15:55 > 0:15:58Because I can tell you, that if I had said that in front
0:15:58 > 0:16:01of a group of Tory MPs, I probably would have heard
0:16:01 > 0:16:03exactly the same noises.
0:16:03 > 0:16:07And far from being an extremist, if you look at Paddy Power
0:16:07 > 0:16:09and if you look at Ladbrokes, the person...
0:16:09 > 0:16:11the Tory currently - which is the bookies favourite
0:16:11 > 0:16:14to take over from Theresa May - is Jacob Rees-Mogg.
0:16:14 > 0:16:15Oh!
0:16:15 > 0:16:16Yeah, it's frightening.
0:16:16 > 0:16:17It's frightening.
0:16:17 > 0:16:19That is because he is intelligent.
0:16:19 > 0:16:23He is intelligent, he is civil and prepared to do something
0:16:23 > 0:16:25Theresa May will not do, which is make the case,
0:16:25 > 0:16:29make the case for the Tory Party on the basis of the philosophy
0:16:29 > 0:16:31of the liberty of the individual.
0:16:31 > 0:16:32Why are we not hearing that?
0:16:32 > 0:16:34We're in Grantham, let's have some Thatcherism back.
0:16:34 > 0:16:41All right.
0:16:41 > 0:16:42APPLAUSE
0:16:42 > 0:16:44The man in the spectacles there.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47I think this is a vanity project on the part of certain MPs.
0:16:47 > 0:16:48There's been Cabinet departures, there's always leadership contests.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51I think people are just getting fed-up and parliament needs to stop
0:16:51 > 0:16:54acting like some sort of grotesque House of Cards and do
0:16:54 > 0:16:55what it's supposed to do.
0:16:55 > 0:16:56It is.
0:16:56 > 0:16:57What would that be?
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Just scrutinise legislation instead of going weak and constantly
0:17:00 > 0:17:06throwing people out, scrutinise legislation properly.
0:17:06 > 0:17:07It's doing exactly that.
0:17:07 > 0:17:08All right.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11The man over there, on the side there, then I'll come over here.
0:17:11 > 0:17:12You, sir.
0:17:12 > 0:17:15A change of leadership of this country at such a crucial
0:17:15 > 0:17:17time would be disastrous for the Brexit negotiations.
0:17:17 > 0:17:19I think the Prime Minister could have taken an easy option
0:17:19 > 0:17:24last year of resigning, as David Cameron did
0:17:24 > 0:17:27after the referendum result, but she has hung on.
0:17:27 > 0:17:29She must be committed to Brexit because I don't think anybody
0:17:29 > 0:17:31would want to put themselves through that personal trauma
0:17:31 > 0:17:33of leading the country through it.
0:17:33 > 0:17:34I think she's committed.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36I think the country needs to support her and get
0:17:36 > 0:17:39behind her to bring that best possible deal back for this country.
0:17:39 > 0:17:40All right.
0:17:40 > 0:17:42And you sir, over there, one last point.
0:17:42 > 0:17:45I'm really sorry, but Theresa May came into the job because no
0:17:45 > 0:17:48Brexiteer stood in the Tory Party leadership election
0:17:48 > 0:17:55after David Cameron resigned.
0:17:55 > 0:17:58They all fell by the wayside and gave her a clear run
0:17:58 > 0:18:01at it because they knew that it was a poison chalice
0:18:01 > 0:18:03because that party will never unite behind someone on Europe.
0:18:03 > 0:18:07OK, thank you.
0:18:07 > 0:18:10I think what we'll do at this stage is to move on to the next question,
0:18:10 > 0:18:12which is pertinent to all of this.
0:18:12 > 0:18:17Just before we do, I have to say where we're going to be
0:18:17 > 0:18:21next week is Darlington, the week after that in Yeovil.
0:18:21 > 0:18:24Darlington then Yeovil, on the screen how to apply.
0:18:24 > 0:18:26But let's keep this theme going and have this question
0:18:26 > 0:18:28from Lisa O'Neill, please.
0:18:28 > 0:18:30When will Remainers realise this our Brexit decision
0:18:30 > 0:18:35was always much more than about the economy?
0:18:35 > 0:18:38APPLAUSE
0:18:38 > 0:18:41So this goes in the light of these figures that
0:18:41 > 0:18:45were released this week, to the heart of what
0:18:45 > 0:18:47the whole thing is about?
0:18:47 > 0:18:50Justine Greening?
0:18:50 > 0:18:53I think that what's important now is we actually find a broad
0:18:53 > 0:18:58settlement on Brexit that can work, not necessarily for the ardent
0:18:58 > 0:19:03Remainers, I don't think that's ever going to be possible or indeed
0:19:03 > 0:19:07for the people who are right on the hard edge of a hard Brexit.
0:19:07 > 0:19:10I think we've got to find something that actually most
0:19:10 > 0:19:12people in our country feel is a sensible approach.
0:19:12 > 0:19:16And I agree it's not just about the economy and jobs,
0:19:16 > 0:19:24that's absolutely vital, and we needed to bear that in mind.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28But it's about the links we've got between people in our country
0:19:28 > 0:19:30and people in the rest of Europe.
0:19:30 > 0:19:32I represent a very young constituency based in London
0:19:32 > 0:19:35and we have to make Brexit work for young people.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37And of course, many of them did not vote for this.
0:19:37 > 0:19:40But I think if we - What about those who did?
0:19:40 > 0:19:42What about those who did?
0:19:42 > 0:19:46So what I'm saying, sir, if we want to actually get
0:19:46 > 0:19:49a sustainable Brexit, then we're going to have to have
0:19:49 > 0:19:51some give-and-take and we're going to have to find a way
0:19:51 > 0:19:55of approaching Brexit that genuinely can bring -
0:19:55 > 0:19:57You are characterising Brexiteers as extreme.
0:19:57 > 0:19:59Brexit is Brexit, it's not difficult to understand.
0:19:59 > 0:20:03It's Brexit.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06Don't tell us - I'm fed-up of hearing this from politicians -
0:20:06 > 0:20:08don't tell us 'those ardent Brexiteers'.
0:20:08 > 0:20:11We just want Brexit, it meens getting out
0:20:11 > 0:20:12of the single market, governing ourselves,
0:20:12 > 0:20:14controlling our borders.
0:20:14 > 0:20:19This is not rocket science, it's called Brexit!
0:20:19 > 0:20:22APPLAUSE
0:20:22 > 0:20:25But it needs to be - Hang on a second.
0:20:25 > 0:20:27You've heard this talk about what Theresa May's up to,
0:20:27 > 0:20:29whether there should be a change.
0:20:29 > 0:20:31What's going wrong from your point of view, in the way
0:20:31 > 0:20:33that the Government is handling it?
0:20:33 > 0:20:34I completely agree with Tim.
0:20:34 > 0:20:38I have to say, Justine, I would almost always agree
0:20:38 > 0:20:40with you when you say get behind the Prime Minister.
0:20:40 > 0:20:43This is not the time to get behind the lame duck who does
0:20:43 > 0:20:45not believe in Brexit.
0:20:45 > 0:20:48We need to get rid of her now, get someone in who believes in it
0:20:48 > 0:20:56and fight for this country.
0:20:56 > 0:20:57OK.
0:20:57 > 0:20:58Do you want to reply to that?
0:20:58 > 0:21:02I just reiterate the points I made which is, if we want a Brexit
0:21:02 > 0:21:05that is going to stick for the long-term, it has to be
0:21:05 > 0:21:07a Brexit that works for the broad population and it absolutely has
0:21:07 > 0:21:10to work for young people growing up in our country.
0:21:10 > 0:21:11And they do care about jobs.
0:21:11 > 0:21:13It is going to be about housing.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16It is going to be about their ability to still feel like they're
0:21:16 > 0:21:19part of a broader Europe that, frankly, we will remain part
0:21:19 > 0:21:21of purely because of geography as much as anything else.
0:21:21 > 0:21:23They want it handling sensibly and pragmatically
0:21:23 > 0:21:28and not ideologically.
0:21:28 > 0:21:29All right.
0:21:29 > 0:21:32John Mann, what can do you make of these figures that came out this
0:21:32 > 0:21:35week about the damage that Brexit would do to the economy
0:21:35 > 0:21:36and all that?
0:21:36 > 0:21:39Do you agree with the man over there, that people are failing
0:21:39 > 0:21:41to realise that Brexit is more than about the economy,
0:21:41 > 0:21:43it's about something more important?
0:21:43 > 0:21:46Well David, I'm kind of the nerds nerd in parliament because I've been
0:21:46 > 0:21:48on the Treasury Committee longer than anyone in the
0:21:48 > 0:21:49history of the world.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51Of the world!
0:21:51 > 0:21:53Extraordinarily, it's my one claim to fame.
0:21:53 > 0:21:54How many years is that?
0:21:54 > 0:21:56That's about 10 years.
0:21:56 > 0:21:57The history of the world.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59What that means is...
0:21:59 > 0:22:00Well, the Treasury Committee is not that old.
0:22:00 > 0:22:02No.
0:22:02 > 0:22:06But I get to scrutinise these reports all the time, constantly.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09At the base of the so-called problems is the Treasury's logic
0:22:09 > 0:22:13on how the economy works.
0:22:13 > 0:22:18The fundamental difference between the different models,
0:22:18 > 0:22:21these secret models, is how much net migration,
0:22:21 > 0:22:28ie immigration, is coming into the country.
0:22:28 > 0:22:30Because the Treasury's model is based on poverty
0:22:30 > 0:22:36if you don't have immigration.
0:22:36 > 0:22:38What they've done is they've scaled down their estimate -
0:22:38 > 0:22:40because of Brexit - of the numbers of
0:22:40 > 0:22:45new people coming in.
0:22:45 > 0:22:48They scaled it from 1.2 million down to 800,000, and some are suggesting
0:22:48 > 0:22:49it will be lower than that.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51800,000 more people coming into the country
0:22:51 > 0:22:56in the next five years.
0:22:56 > 0:23:00What they're concluding therefore is, that will damage the economy.
0:23:00 > 0:23:04I say that their logic on the economy is fundamentally
0:23:04 > 0:23:08wrong and the reason for that is because the idea that
0:23:08 > 0:23:11you boost an economy simply by bringing more and more people
0:23:11 > 0:23:15into the labour market is flawed.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18There's a report out today on robotics, which says how many
0:23:18 > 0:23:21jobs we're going to lose by robots.
0:23:21 > 0:23:27Actually, if we were the first country to take advantage
0:23:27 > 0:23:30of the freedoms we've got and build up that industry, actually let's
0:23:30 > 0:23:32have lots of robots doing the jobs, but not replacing people,
0:23:32 > 0:23:34but building productivity and building wealth.
0:23:34 > 0:23:37So the Treasury model is what is behind every single
0:23:37 > 0:23:41one of these estimates.
0:23:41 > 0:23:44Just to interrupt you.
0:23:44 > 0:23:50This figure, that if we were under WTO rules, the economy would be 8%
0:23:50 > 0:23:53lower, the growth in the economy 8% lower over the next 15 years.
0:23:53 > 0:23:56That's the figure you dispute?
0:23:56 > 0:23:57I dispute the Treasury model.
0:23:57 > 0:23:59OK.
0:23:59 > 0:24:02The Treasury model is based on trade and it's based
0:24:02 > 0:24:04on net migration inwards, and it's been argued
0:24:04 > 0:24:07about on the Treasury Committee over the years.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09They over estimated grossly what the problems would be
0:24:09 > 0:24:10immediately after the referendum.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12They got it totally wrong.
0:24:12 > 0:24:13OK.
0:24:13 > 0:24:15They're getting it totally wrong again.
0:24:15 > 0:24:18What we should be doing is joining together as a country
0:24:18 > 0:24:21in what the advantages are.
0:24:21 > 0:24:25We ought to be looking into the fourth industry revolution
0:24:25 > 0:24:28of how we can protect, as the Americans did
0:24:28 > 0:24:31in Silicon Valley, their new industries.
0:24:31 > 0:24:33Where we can build high skills, not cheap labour, low skills.
0:24:33 > 0:24:35Which is the way we've gone.
0:24:35 > 0:24:38We've taken the easy option.
0:24:38 > 0:24:41This is the big opportunity that we now have.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43A high skilled economy, protecting those new industries.
0:24:43 > 0:24:44That's what we should go for.
0:24:44 > 0:24:46I have to stop you there.
0:24:46 > 0:24:47OK, thank you.
0:24:47 > 0:24:48Miatta.
0:24:48 > 0:24:53So look, John, these impact assessments, all they do
0:24:53 > 0:24:56is that they look at the information that we have available
0:24:56 > 0:24:59to us and they make an assessment of what they think
0:24:59 > 0:25:01is likely to happen.
0:25:01 > 0:25:04And, quite frankly, I think for most people they're not surprised that
0:25:04 > 0:25:06Brexit is going to have a knock-on effect to the economy.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09I don't think there's anyone that thinks it's not
0:25:09 > 0:25:11going to have a knock-on effect to the economy.
0:25:11 > 0:25:13So for me, you know, the bigger issue, to take
0:25:13 > 0:25:15the question that Lisa asked - yes...
0:25:15 > 0:25:17So when you say knock-on effect, obviously going
0:25:17 > 0:25:20to have a knock-on effect, but a deleterious or beneficial?
0:25:20 > 0:25:20A negative knock-on effect.
0:25:20 > 0:25:22I don't think there's anyone that...
0:25:22 > 0:25:24I don't think there's anyone that thinks it's not
0:25:24 > 0:25:26going to have a negative knock-on effect and, certainly,
0:25:26 > 0:25:28all the work that we've done you New Economics Foundation
0:25:28 > 0:25:29supports that.
0:25:29 > 0:25:32Sorry, what was that?
0:25:32 > 0:25:34Nothing's changed so far.
0:25:34 > 0:25:37Yeah, but we have not left the European Union.
0:25:37 > 0:25:38We have not left the European Union.
0:25:38 > 0:25:41Sorry, what was the remark, in the referendum?
0:25:41 > 0:25:43Go on, speak up.
0:25:43 > 0:25:46The economists for free trade have published figures which some eminent
0:25:46 > 0:25:49economists behind them, who have been very correct
0:25:49 > 0:25:51with economic forecasts over the past 30 years,
0:25:51 > 0:25:53that are predicting the opposite of what these Treasury
0:25:53 > 0:25:54reports are saying.
0:25:54 > 0:25:56They're saying it would be positive on WTO terms.
0:25:56 > 0:25:57All right.
0:25:57 > 0:25:59Yes.
0:25:59 > 0:26:03So I think the majority of economic analysis suggests that there be
0:26:03 > 0:26:05a negative knock-on impact, certainly in the short-term and then
0:26:05 > 0:26:13I think there's a question about the long-term because there's
0:26:14 > 0:26:16lots of different factors that come into play.
0:26:16 > 0:26:19To go back to Lisa's question, there were lots of different reasons
0:26:19 > 0:26:20why people voted to leave the European Union.
0:26:20 > 0:26:22All of them legitimate.
0:26:22 > 0:26:25But for a lot of people, you know, they voted to leave because,
0:26:25 > 0:26:27quite frankly, they were sick and tired of the state
0:26:27 > 0:26:28of the economy.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31They were fed up with seeing their pay packages squeezed.
0:26:31 > 0:26:32They were tired of the housing crisis.
0:26:32 > 0:26:34They were worried about the prospect of their children.
0:26:34 > 0:26:38I think in all of this we've got to hold on to that.
0:26:38 > 0:26:39It's absolutely beholden on the politicians to ask
0:26:39 > 0:26:41themselves the question, when they're dealing with things
0:26:41 > 0:26:49like Brexit or some of the real complex tech issues,
0:26:50 > 0:26:52like the single market or the customs union,
0:26:52 > 0:26:55will it make easier or will it make harder to improve our living
0:26:55 > 0:26:57standards, to create jobs for us, to make things better
0:26:57 > 0:26:58for our young people?
0:26:58 > 0:27:01That has to be the litmus test of all of this.
0:27:01 > 0:27:04My big worry is that we leave the European Union and actually it
0:27:04 > 0:27:09doesn't solve all those problems, not least because we will have
0:27:09 > 0:27:12a decade where the politicians and the Government are dealing
0:27:12 > 0:27:15with the ins and outs of Brexit and they're not
0:27:15 > 0:27:17focussing on these massive, massive challenges that we
0:27:17 > 0:27:22absolutely must deal with.
0:27:22 > 0:27:23APPLAUSE
0:27:23 > 0:27:26Let me hear from the woman there.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29So the gentleman over there just said - why do people reduce people
0:27:29 > 0:27:34down to hard line Brexiteers and exactly why the thing that
0:27:34 > 0:27:38you just said, you know, you think that everything
0:27:38 > 0:27:42is so simple and straight-forward, and it's not.
0:27:42 > 0:27:46The issues of why people voted for Brexit are,
0:27:46 > 0:27:48as the lady just said, are far more complicated and more
0:27:48 > 0:27:51to do with our own internal domestic politics and policies that aren't
0:27:51 > 0:27:56going to change overnight, the day after we leave the European Union.
0:27:56 > 0:27:58APPLAUSE
0:27:58 > 0:28:00What's your feeling about the way that it's
0:28:00 > 0:28:02being negotiated at the moment?
0:28:02 > 0:28:04I think it's embarrassing.
0:28:04 > 0:28:05I think it's really embarrassing, you know.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08Why?
0:28:08 > 0:28:11It's just a waste of time.
0:28:11 > 0:28:13It feels like it's just such a waste of time.
0:28:13 > 0:28:15There are far bigger problems in our society
0:28:15 > 0:28:17that we should be focussing on.
0:28:17 > 0:28:19We talked about the housing crisis.
0:28:19 > 0:28:22We've talked about the productivity issues that we've got.
0:28:22 > 0:28:26Brexit just seems to be this big side track that's kind of been
0:28:26 > 0:28:29manufactured by the media and some really angry people on social media.
0:28:29 > 0:28:32All right.
0:28:32 > 0:28:38Actually, the EU isn't the problem.
0:28:38 > 0:28:40I won't come to you straight Jo, because you've been nodding
0:28:40 > 0:28:41in agreement on that point.
0:28:41 > 0:28:44Let me go to Tim Stanley, perhaps you would like
0:28:44 > 0:28:45to pick up that point?
0:28:45 > 0:28:48I don't think it's just about what's going on on social media,
0:28:48 > 0:28:51the choice is so big and important.
0:28:51 > 0:28:55When it comes to the Treasury's forecast, don't forget this
0:28:55 > 0:29:00is the same Treasury that said that just a vote to leave would itself
0:29:00 > 0:29:05create 500,000 job losses and lead to the economy shrinking by 3.6%
0:29:05 > 0:29:12and neither of those things happened.
0:29:12 > 0:29:15The other problem is the Treasury, a lot of its predictions -
0:29:15 > 0:29:18which are 15 years hence by the way - are based upon the assumption
0:29:18 > 0:29:20that the EU is going to continue to grow.
0:29:20 > 0:29:23It's enjoying an upturn at the moment, but that might not
0:29:23 > 0:29:26last, and even if the EU will survive in the form
0:29:26 > 0:29:27that it's currently in.
0:29:27 > 0:29:29We're always talking about predictions of how things
0:29:29 > 0:29:31will go down in Britain, we make assumptions about the future
0:29:31 > 0:29:33prosperity of the EU, which I think are unreasonable.
0:29:33 > 0:29:36But the first question was, was this primarily about democracy?
0:29:36 > 0:29:38Yes, you're absolutely right, it's very complicated and many
0:29:38 > 0:29:41people had many different reasons - as a protest vote, about
0:29:41 > 0:29:43immigration, about free trade - but for me, personally,
0:29:43 > 0:29:44it was about democracy.
0:29:44 > 0:29:46What's interesting, as we've seen it evolve from a question
0:29:46 > 0:29:50about the nature of democracy with the EU, to a debate about
0:29:50 > 0:29:53democracy in this country itself.
0:29:53 > 0:29:56It's so important I think for democracy in Britain
0:29:56 > 0:30:04that the democratic will of the people is implemented.
0:30:06 > 0:30:09That, to me, is what the discussion has now moved on to,
0:30:09 > 0:30:10whether or not we can do that.
0:30:10 > 0:30:12But how do you define the implementation because everybody
0:30:12 > 0:30:15seems to have a different view about how the vote
0:30:15 > 0:30:16can be implemented?
0:30:16 > 0:30:18Very simply, because there are many different kinds of Brexit
0:30:18 > 0:30:21and there are many different ways of going about it.
0:30:21 > 0:30:22Precisely.
0:30:22 > 0:30:23So how do you define them?
0:30:23 > 0:30:26Very simply, that we do indeed leave the EU and restore the ability
0:30:26 > 0:30:30to make our own laws and that that process is not undermined by anyone.
0:30:30 > 0:30:33But it's not just a test of that, it's also a test about how we do
0:30:33 > 0:30:35democracy in this country.
0:30:35 > 0:30:37I'm really tired of the labelling of hard Brexiteers or Remoaners
0:30:37 > 0:30:38or things like that.
0:30:38 > 0:30:41Don't get me wrong, I do it myself sometimes, and I regret that,
0:30:41 > 0:30:43but I'm tired of it.
0:30:43 > 0:30:46You keep regretting things you've said.
0:30:46 > 0:30:48It would be nice if we could...
0:30:48 > 0:30:50That's because I listen to myself back sometimes,
0:30:50 > 0:30:52like I will do later on and I'm sure I will cringe
0:30:52 > 0:30:54all the way through it.
0:30:54 > 0:30:57But it's so important that we get through this moment in our democracy
0:30:57 > 0:30:59with civility and we come out the other side together,
0:30:59 > 0:31:02because that's what matters, is that we are in this together
0:31:02 > 0:31:05and that we respect the decision that was taken and we come
0:31:05 > 0:31:07out of it a stronger, richer and freer country.
0:31:07 > 0:31:10APPLAUSE
0:31:10 > 0:31:14The woman in purple, did you want to speak?
0:31:14 > 0:31:16You had your hand up before.
0:31:16 > 0:31:20I mean, Brexiteers are talking about strategies, wars and fights
0:31:20 > 0:31:21all the time with Europe.
0:31:21 > 0:31:22I'm European.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25I wasn't allowed to vote here, after living 35
0:31:25 > 0:31:27years, paying my taxes.
0:31:27 > 0:31:30My child wasn't able to vote either.
0:31:30 > 0:31:32This is like a Barcelona referendum.
0:31:32 > 0:31:34This is an illegal advisory referendum.
0:31:34 > 0:31:37This is not democracy and this is a shame of England,
0:31:37 > 0:31:41which has always been a democratic country to show, lead and show
0:31:41 > 0:31:44example of a good...
0:31:44 > 0:31:47So you're always talking about fight, and in fact,
0:31:47 > 0:31:51the gentleman there, it is an example of a vociferous...
0:31:51 > 0:31:53Have some manners and let the lady speak, please!
0:31:53 > 0:31:56Vociferous argument.
0:31:56 > 0:31:58You always talk, also it's glamorous to say Brexiteers,
0:31:58 > 0:32:00it sounds a bit like musketeers.
0:32:00 > 0:32:04I'm sick of hearing "You are a Brexiteer, I am a Remoaner".
0:32:04 > 0:32:08I'm not a Remoaner because I was not allowed to vote.
0:32:08 > 0:32:13All right, Jo Swinson.
0:32:13 > 0:32:16I think the lady makes some very good points there.
0:32:16 > 0:32:18Clearly, this is about more than just the economy.
0:32:18 > 0:32:20I absolutely understand that, and I think there's a very
0:32:20 > 0:32:23straightforward and honest position that says, "I want to leave
0:32:23 > 0:32:27the European Union because I don't like what that means for immigration
0:32:27 > 0:32:30and for what that means about the sharing of decisions
0:32:30 > 0:32:34about regulations on trade and so on.
0:32:34 > 0:32:37And therefore, the most important thing is that we leave
0:32:37 > 0:32:39the European Union even though that will have a negative
0:32:39 > 0:32:42effect on the economy, which is the economic consensus".
0:32:42 > 0:32:46But that is not what has been and is being said,
0:32:46 > 0:32:49because instead people are sort of being painted this vision around
0:32:49 > 0:32:52a hard or a soft Brexit, a cake and eat it Brexit.
0:32:52 > 0:32:54It's a total fantasy.
0:32:54 > 0:32:58It's to say that we can have all of this and the economy won't be
0:32:58 > 0:33:00impacted, we can come out of the single market but nonetheless
0:33:00 > 0:33:04we'll be able to have the exact same access to it as we do at the moment
0:33:04 > 0:33:07without having to obey any of the rules that all the other
0:33:07 > 0:33:10countries in the single market have to abide by.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13And to peddle that myth to the public, I think,
0:33:13 > 0:33:15is a dereliction of duty.
0:33:15 > 0:33:17Because what the government is saying they're going to be able
0:33:17 > 0:33:24to negotiate with their European partners is simply not on the table.
0:33:24 > 0:33:26And the sooner we get some real honesty and realism
0:33:26 > 0:33:28into this debate, the better.
0:33:28 > 0:33:32We cannot have our cake and eat it.
0:33:32 > 0:33:33There are some hard choices here.
0:33:33 > 0:33:36It's a perfectly respectable position to say, fair enough,
0:33:36 > 0:33:38I'd rather just reduce immigration and I'm not so fussed
0:33:38 > 0:33:39about the economy.
0:33:39 > 0:33:42But that is the position and we should be honest about it.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45APPLAUSE
0:33:45 > 0:33:48Just before we leave this, the former Chancellor
0:33:48 > 0:33:51of the Exchequer George Osborne seemed to be saying today
0:33:51 > 0:33:53that he didn't think the numbers stacked up.
0:33:53 > 0:33:56You have to count in the House of Commons and the numbers wouldn't
0:33:56 > 0:33:58stack up for leaving the customs union.
0:33:58 > 0:33:59Do you think he's right?
0:33:59 > 0:34:01I'm not sure he is.
0:34:01 > 0:34:03I think that's the debate that we will be having
0:34:03 > 0:34:04over the coming weeks.
0:34:04 > 0:34:09And in the end, we are going to have to find a way through this.
0:34:09 > 0:34:12But we are not going to do it, I think, particularly my view
0:34:12 > 0:34:15is by listening to the outer fringes of this discussion.
0:34:15 > 0:34:17I think you'll find a way through by perhaps listening
0:34:17 > 0:34:21to the silent centre ground majority of public opinion in our country.
0:34:21 > 0:34:25The worst thing that we could have happen to us now is that we leave
0:34:25 > 0:34:30the EU, we are not happy with that settlement and then we revisit
0:34:30 > 0:34:34this all over again in the next five to ten years.
0:34:34 > 0:34:37And I very much doubt that the younger generation
0:34:37 > 0:34:41in our country will take 44 years to come to another
0:34:41 > 0:34:46referendum like the current generation perhaps has done.
0:34:46 > 0:34:49And we can't afford, I agree with you, we can't afford
0:34:49 > 0:34:51to spend the next ten, 15, 20 years of our lives
0:34:51 > 0:34:55talking about Brexit.
0:34:55 > 0:34:58We have to find a sustainable approach, make sure it works and get
0:34:58 > 0:35:00on to fixing some of these more underlying challenges that can
0:35:00 > 0:35:07unlock our country's success in the future.
0:35:07 > 0:35:09George Osborne's point is that the House of Commons,
0:35:09 > 0:35:12as it is currently constituted, wouldn't allow a clear
0:35:12 > 0:35:16result of the kind that you're talking about,
0:35:16 > 0:35:18that there will be problems.
0:35:18 > 0:35:20Do you think he's right that they won't be able to leave
0:35:20 > 0:35:24entirely because the House of Commons will vote against it?
0:35:24 > 0:35:26The Labour Party wouldn't like to leave this customs
0:35:26 > 0:35:28union, would they?
0:35:28 > 0:35:30I've rarely found George to be right, and when he said
0:35:30 > 0:35:35there would have to be an emergency Budget immediately after Brexit,
0:35:35 > 0:35:40it reminded me of when he said, when he came in as Chancellor,
0:35:40 > 0:35:44that he would get rid of the debt within one Parliament,
0:35:44 > 0:35:49and that's going up at £5,000 a second at the moment.
0:35:49 > 0:35:50So that's George's legacy.
0:35:50 > 0:35:53Frankly, anything George has to say on the economy has to be taken
0:35:53 > 0:35:54with a pinch of salt.
0:35:54 > 0:35:55He's a journalist now.
0:35:55 > 0:35:57That's probably where he is best suited to be.
0:35:57 > 0:35:58OK.
0:35:58 > 0:35:59Right, we'll move on.
0:35:59 > 0:36:01We'll move on.
0:36:01 > 0:36:03Those of you who had your hands up, I'm sorry.
0:36:03 > 0:36:06We do talk about this a lot everywhere we go,
0:36:06 > 0:36:08but we don't want to do the whole programme on it.
0:36:08 > 0:36:10I'm going to come back to you.
0:36:10 > 0:36:12You were talking, George Stoppard, about something quite different,
0:36:12 > 0:36:14but you've got the next question, as it happens.
0:36:14 > 0:36:17Given recent revelations of a series of innocent men
0:36:17 > 0:36:19being accused of rape and almost losing their liberty, is it time
0:36:19 > 0:36:22to name and shame false accusers?
0:36:22 > 0:36:29APPLAUSE
0:36:29 > 0:36:31I think there are four rape cases that have
0:36:31 > 0:36:32collapsed in recent weeks.
0:36:32 > 0:36:35Liam Allan, of course, was the one that received an apology
0:36:35 > 0:36:37for it going to trial at all.
0:36:37 > 0:36:39Jo Swinson.
0:36:39 > 0:36:42I think we have to be pretty careful in looking at what the justice
0:36:42 > 0:36:45system actually says.
0:36:45 > 0:36:48So the fact that a conviction cannot be brought, yes,
0:36:48 > 0:36:52it says under the law that that person is innocent, but it doesn't
0:36:52 > 0:36:56follow that the person that made the allegation was making it up.
0:36:56 > 0:36:59Because we rightly have a higher standard for taking away someone's
0:36:59 > 0:37:02liberty and pronouncing them guilty of the crime of rape.
0:37:02 > 0:37:07It is a high standard to meet, and that basically means
0:37:07 > 0:37:11we recognise that there will be some people who did commit
0:37:11 > 0:37:14the offence but who walk free, to try to prevent the alternative,
0:37:14 > 0:37:16which would be innocent people being locked up.
0:37:16 > 0:37:20APPLAUSE
0:37:20 > 0:37:24So I would be very wary about presuming in any circumstance
0:37:24 > 0:37:26where there was a rape trial and somebody is found innocent
0:37:26 > 0:37:29that the person who made that complaint in the first place somehow
0:37:29 > 0:37:31was not doing so genuinely.
0:37:31 > 0:37:33And I think also that the number of false accusations,
0:37:33 > 0:37:37of people who are making an accusation when it
0:37:37 > 0:37:40didn't actually happen, is very, very small.
0:37:40 > 0:37:43Obviously, some of these cases make it into the media
0:37:43 > 0:37:47but it is important that we keep that in perspective.
0:37:47 > 0:37:50And also remember the other side of the problem here,
0:37:50 > 0:37:52which is only a tiny proportion of women and indeed men
0:37:52 > 0:37:56who are raped in this country ever reaches trial in the first place.
0:37:56 > 0:37:58There is a huge problem of underreporting.
0:37:58 > 0:38:00And because it is very difficult to secure a conviction,
0:38:00 > 0:38:03we recognise that many people will not get justice.
0:38:03 > 0:38:07So I have huge sympathy with anybody that goes through the experience
0:38:07 > 0:38:10where they have not committed a crime and go through that trial
0:38:10 > 0:38:12experience, in particular if they have actually then been
0:38:12 > 0:38:15convicted of something.
0:38:15 > 0:38:18And there are serious questions that need to be asked in the criminal
0:38:18 > 0:38:21justice system about this, but we also need to make sure
0:38:21 > 0:38:24that we keep a balanced approach and recognise that there are very,
0:38:24 > 0:38:26very many victims of sexual crimes and do not get justice.
0:38:26 > 0:38:27APPLAUSE
0:38:27 > 0:38:33You, sir.
0:38:33 > 0:38:35I think that although picking up on your point,
0:38:35 > 0:38:37although it's important to look at when they are falsely accused,
0:38:37 > 0:38:39that is only about 3-4% of all
0:38:39 > 0:38:42cases. Like you just said, when you actually look and breakdown
0:38:42 > 0:38:45as to why they didn't get to a decision, a lot of it is coming
0:38:45 > 0:38:47down to the evidence that is actually brought
0:38:47 > 0:38:50to the case.
0:38:50 > 0:38:53So why not make that the important point that you're talking about,
0:38:53 > 0:38:55the evidence that's brought to people and how the justice system
0:38:55 > 0:38:58can make a decision on that?
0:38:58 > 0:39:01And it makes a broader point, how as the public can we trust
0:39:01 > 0:39:04the justice system to make a decision with what has
0:39:04 > 0:39:09actually come off in the past couple of weeks?
0:39:09 > 0:39:12We've seen cases where evidence has just come up randomly two
0:39:12 > 0:39:17years down the line, 15 months, 16 months down the line.
0:39:17 > 0:39:18How has that possibly ever happened?
0:39:18 > 0:39:21How is that even a thing?
0:39:21 > 0:39:23How can we trust in that case?
0:39:23 > 0:39:28The woman in red.
0:39:28 > 0:39:33I think any questions around this issue of rape need to be looked
0:39:33 > 0:39:36at in the context of the subjugation of women over thousands of years.
0:39:36 > 0:39:40It's taken us a long time to get to the point where rape is even
0:39:40 > 0:39:42recognised as a crime, including within marriage.
0:39:42 > 0:39:46So we need to support women and create an environment
0:39:46 > 0:39:51where women feel able to go to the authorities when something
0:39:51 > 0:39:53like that happens.
0:39:53 > 0:39:56Yes, there are the occasional cases of false accusations actually
0:39:56 > 0:39:58leading to imprisonment.
0:39:58 > 0:40:02But these numbers are absolutely tiny, and it's our responsibility
0:40:02 > 0:40:09to overweight the experience of the women in these cases.
0:40:09 > 0:40:12You don't think if there is proven false accusation that should lead
0:40:12 > 0:40:15to the naming of the false accuser?
0:40:15 > 0:40:19No, because I think it creates an environment where it's even more
0:40:19 > 0:40:24difficult for women, the progress that we've made to get
0:40:24 > 0:40:27to this point is going to be undone if women feel that their accusations
0:40:27 > 0:40:32aren't going to be believed, and if that person doesn't get
0:40:32 > 0:40:36the conviction that they could then be publicly named.
0:40:36 > 0:40:38It's just going to go backwards.
0:40:38 > 0:40:43Justine Greening.
0:40:43 > 0:40:45I think it's absolutely a step too far to name
0:40:45 > 0:40:46and shame false accusers.
0:40:46 > 0:40:51I agree with the point the lady just made.
0:40:51 > 0:40:54These are actually quite rare in relation to the broader
0:40:54 > 0:40:57challenges I think we face on sexual violence, which is making sure that
0:40:57 > 0:41:01women, and indeed men, who are victims, feel they can come
0:41:01 > 0:41:03forward and talk to police in the first place.
0:41:03 > 0:41:09As MPs we do deal with people who been victims of sexual violence.
0:41:09 > 0:41:11So it's actually the reporting, from my perspective,
0:41:11 > 0:41:15that's the biggest issue, combined then with making sure that
0:41:15 > 0:41:21victims get their day in court, but actually that process is handled
0:41:21 > 0:41:26effectively by the police and the prosecution service as well,
0:41:26 > 0:41:28so that they know when they get an outcome it's
0:41:28 > 0:41:29genuinely the right one.
0:41:29 > 0:41:33And I do think of course we need to be fair to all parties in this
0:41:33 > 0:41:36case, but I think the issues we've seen recently are deeply,
0:41:36 > 0:41:37deeply concerning.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40This is probably one of the most traumatic crimes that can be
0:41:40 > 0:41:41committed against anyone, any woman, and it's vital
0:41:41 > 0:41:45that it is handled effectively.
0:41:45 > 0:41:49The man there.
0:41:49 > 0:41:52You mention women mainly, but men do get raped, too.
0:41:52 > 0:41:56And the problem is men are more afraid to talk about it.
0:41:56 > 0:42:01And if you're willing to lie and possibly put a man's life
0:42:01 > 0:42:04on the line to go to prison for something he didn't do,
0:42:04 > 0:42:07I think that's just disgusting and you deserve to go to prison.
0:42:07 > 0:42:09If you're going to take someone else's life away,
0:42:09 > 0:42:11you should have yours taken as well.
0:42:11 > 0:42:12Tim Stanley.
0:42:12 > 0:42:14The Crown Prosecution Service is obviously trying to address
0:42:14 > 0:42:18a serious problem, which is the low conviction rate for rape.
0:42:18 > 0:42:25So reading between the lines, it's put a great deal
0:42:25 > 0:42:27of pressure on to try to get the conviction rate up.
0:42:27 > 0:42:31That's a good thing.
0:42:31 > 0:42:34The problem is that it seems to have, it seems to relate to some
0:42:34 > 0:42:38mistakes when it comes to procedure.
0:42:38 > 0:42:40And the reason why a number of trials, high profile trials,
0:42:40 > 0:42:43have recently collapsed is because crucial evidence has not
0:42:43 > 0:42:47been submitted and has not been made available.
0:42:47 > 0:42:51That is a procedural mistake and it has not only embarrassed the police
0:42:51 > 0:42:54and the CPS but it also undermines people's faith in
0:42:54 > 0:42:56the justice system.
0:42:56 > 0:42:59It undermines not just those who are hurt by that,
0:42:59 > 0:43:03and it's very hard to think of something worse than being
0:43:03 > 0:43:06accused of such a dreadful crime, having to carry that around
0:43:06 > 0:43:09for the rest of your life, the stigma never quite going away,
0:43:09 > 0:43:12because people say they feel like it doesn't.
0:43:12 > 0:43:14But it also undermines the confidence of women and men
0:43:14 > 0:43:20who have been assaulted to bring an accusation, because they see
0:43:20 > 0:43:23trials collapsing and it makes them less likely to bring the accusation.
0:43:23 > 0:43:25And what about the question?
0:43:25 > 0:43:28The answer is, therefore, but I feel that's slightly separate
0:43:28 > 0:43:31from the issue of the correct presentation of evidence.
0:43:31 > 0:43:34The question is do you name and shame.
0:43:34 > 0:43:37I don't like the concept of naming and shaming,
0:43:37 > 0:43:39precisely for the reasons that Jo has laid out.
0:43:39 > 0:43:44But it might be time to withhold the names of people who are accused.
0:43:44 > 0:43:48APPLAUSE
0:43:48 > 0:43:55As a journalist, if I can very quickly explain...
0:43:55 > 0:43:57Traditionally, journalists don't support that, partly
0:43:57 > 0:43:59because we have learned, through what we cover,
0:43:59 > 0:44:04that when an accusation goes public it encourages other women and men
0:44:04 > 0:44:07to come forward and can help to bring an eventual
0:44:07 > 0:44:08successful prosecution.
0:44:08 > 0:44:12But I fear the sheer number of people who have
0:44:12 > 0:44:17been falsely accused, the accuracy has collapsed,
0:44:17 > 0:44:20it feels like an injustice is being done in the pursuit
0:44:20 > 0:44:21of justice, and that's not right.
0:44:21 > 0:44:24Exactly.
0:44:24 > 0:44:28The woman here in the front.
0:44:28 > 0:44:30Currently, there are at least two or three women per week
0:44:30 > 0:44:32who are killed by their ex-partners or current partners.
0:44:32 > 0:44:35They have usually sustained decades of abuse, sexual and violent abuse.
0:44:35 > 0:44:41Where is the people that are dealing with that situation?
0:44:41 > 0:44:43These women are dying, where nobody is even
0:44:43 > 0:44:46addressing the situation.
0:44:46 > 0:44:51There's been a big, big quilt being made to try
0:44:51 > 0:44:55and commemorate these women, because their names are being lost.
0:44:55 > 0:44:57They should not be lost.
0:44:57 > 0:45:02Their cases should be taken up and they should be remembered,
0:45:02 > 0:45:05and we should be making sure that these cases do
0:45:05 > 0:45:12not happen any more.
0:45:12 > 0:45:13John Mann.
0:45:13 > 0:45:20There is a moral dilemma with this.
0:45:20 > 0:45:22There's a man called Savile, and until clear allegations
0:45:22 > 0:45:24were made against him, lots of people didn't come forward.
0:45:24 > 0:45:29And when they did, vast numbers of people, including some
0:45:29 > 0:45:31of my constituents, came forward.
0:45:31 > 0:45:34Now, I'm representing a large number of survivors of childhood sexual
0:45:34 > 0:45:39abuse in the Independent enquiry.
0:45:39 > 0:45:42I was at the hearing, sat alongside all the other QCs.
0:45:42 > 0:45:47I'm not a QC, I'm representing people who've never had any justice.
0:45:47 > 0:45:52I'm representing people who will not go to the police because they don't
0:45:52 > 0:45:55want their name making public.
0:45:55 > 0:46:01I'm talking to someone tomorrow who hasn't told their own family.
0:46:01 > 0:46:04I meet people in my constituency office who've never told anybody
0:46:04 > 0:46:07and come and tell me and say, "What are you going to do about it?
0:46:07 > 0:46:09How can you help?"
0:46:09 > 0:46:11And in this, what I'm seeing, I don't disbelieve
0:46:11 > 0:46:14any of these people.
0:46:14 > 0:46:17I hear the horrific, grotesque things that have
0:46:17 > 0:46:21destroyed their lives.
0:46:21 > 0:46:23I see with some of them, some of them are incapable
0:46:23 > 0:46:27of properly speaking to me because of the things that have
0:46:27 > 0:46:32happened, and they're the ones who haven't killed themselves.
0:46:32 > 0:46:35That is part of what's not been discussed properly in this country.
0:46:35 > 0:46:40And so there is a dilemma, of course there is.
0:46:40 > 0:46:42I've dealt with people where actually they're not sure,
0:46:42 > 0:46:48when they were a tiny child, who raped them.
0:46:48 > 0:46:52And sometimes I'm fearful that they're looking for a name,
0:46:52 > 0:46:57and if they think they've got a name, they'd like to get justice.
0:46:57 > 0:47:01But actually what they know is that somebody raped them repeatedly
0:47:01 > 0:47:04when they were small, and destroyed their lives.
0:47:04 > 0:47:06That's part of the problem that the police and the prosecution
0:47:06 > 0:47:08service have got.
0:47:08 > 0:47:11I tell you, I've been dealing with this for about four years now.
0:47:11 > 0:47:14It's not what I expected to be doing as an MP.
0:47:14 > 0:47:18I have seen a significant improvement in how the police
0:47:18 > 0:47:21and how the Crown Prosecution understand these issues,
0:47:21 > 0:47:25but it's only just come in the last year or so.
0:47:25 > 0:47:29And coming to the question that George over there asked, is it time
0:47:29 > 0:47:31to name and shame false accusers?
0:47:31 > 0:47:32You would not be sympathetic to that?
0:47:32 > 0:47:34No, I wouldn't.
0:47:34 > 0:47:37As well, I'm asked repeatedly, will you name and shame some
0:47:37 > 0:47:43of the MPs who are suspected of child abuse?
0:47:43 > 0:47:46Or some of the MPs who have sexually assaulted and not been named, other
0:47:46 > 0:47:49people who are still in Parliament.
0:47:49 > 0:47:54I'd love to do it, but I think that's fundamentally wrong,
0:47:54 > 0:47:58and I don't think that's my remit or anybody else's remit to do that.
0:47:58 > 0:48:00I think we've got to stay within the justice system we've got,
0:48:00 > 0:48:03but also provide far more support that encourages more people.
0:48:03 > 0:48:05It is men as well as women, but it's primarily women,
0:48:05 > 0:48:07vast numbers of women.
0:48:07 > 0:48:09I'm representing over 30 people of my constituents.
0:48:09 > 0:48:11Would you come to me?
0:48:11 > 0:48:13Why would you come to me?
0:48:13 > 0:48:15Imagine how many more people are out there
0:48:15 > 0:48:17and no-one's representing them.
0:48:17 > 0:48:19It's one of the biggest issues this country's not
0:48:19 > 0:48:23got its head round yet.
0:48:23 > 0:48:24APPLAUSE
0:48:24 > 0:48:25The woman there.
0:48:25 > 0:48:28There seems to be a theme emerging throughout the way
0:48:28 > 0:48:30this topic is going.
0:48:30 > 0:48:33There's a fault at the investigation stage with the police.
0:48:33 > 0:48:37There seems to be a massive issue happening here.
0:48:37 > 0:48:40Like the woman said down there, there's women dying because police
0:48:40 > 0:48:43aren't taking it seriously.
0:48:43 > 0:48:47There's men and women who are going to the police
0:48:47 > 0:48:54for help and, like you said, they've been named and shamed.
0:48:55 > 0:48:58They can say, yeah, their names can't be mentioned
0:48:58 > 0:49:00while the case is happening, but there's communities.
0:49:00 > 0:49:03On social media we have a social media group for our local town.
0:49:03 > 0:49:07If someone's name gets put on there, its tarnished.
0:49:07 > 0:49:10The police need to have some kind of thing in process.
0:49:10 > 0:49:13Like when they're putting images on of people on the internet where
0:49:13 > 0:49:14they're at their most vulnerable.
0:49:14 > 0:49:21They've got, like, things in place to punish people for that.
0:49:21 > 0:49:23They can't do that any more, putting vulnerable images up
0:49:23 > 0:49:24of people on the internet.
0:49:24 > 0:49:26They are punished for that.
0:49:26 > 0:49:28People need to be punished in the communities for bringing up
0:49:28 > 0:49:31people's names before it's even been found if they're guilty or not.
0:49:31 > 0:49:32There's faults with the police.
0:49:32 > 0:49:34That's where it's happening at the moment and that
0:49:34 > 0:49:36needs to be sorted out.
0:49:36 > 0:49:37OK.
0:49:37 > 0:49:38The man there on the gangway there.
0:49:38 > 0:49:40The woman there, I can't see.
0:49:40 > 0:49:42Yes.
0:49:42 > 0:49:43Yes, you, sorry.
0:49:43 > 0:49:47We can't start naming and shaming because we'll just have gangs
0:49:47 > 0:49:53of vigilantes as soon as somebody is named or their picture goes up
0:49:53 > 0:49:56or their picture goes up on social media.
0:49:56 > 0:49:57They'll...
0:49:57 > 0:49:58All right.
0:49:58 > 0:49:59Let me go back to the questioner.
0:49:59 > 0:50:04What do you make of what you've heard so far?
0:50:04 > 0:50:06Are you convinced by what you've heard?
0:50:06 > 0:50:07I agree with Tim.
0:50:07 > 0:50:11If men's names and reputations get dragged through the press,
0:50:11 > 0:50:14that shouldn't happen until they're found guilty.
0:50:14 > 0:50:20And there is now in this era...
0:50:20 > 0:50:21APPLAUSE
0:50:21 > 0:50:24I think this era of witchhunting, a man now is actually guilty
0:50:24 > 0:50:25until proven innocent.
0:50:25 > 0:50:28And so I think, let's stop naming men.
0:50:28 > 0:50:31If we're going to protect women who make false accusations,
0:50:31 > 0:50:34then at least protect men until they're guilty.
0:50:34 > 0:50:35APPLAUSE
0:50:35 > 0:50:37Miatta.
0:50:37 > 0:50:40So look, I agree with a lot of the points that have been made.
0:50:40 > 0:50:45I do think actually the key issue here is the rape of both men
0:50:45 > 0:50:47and women has been under reported.
0:50:47 > 0:50:52Actually, for a really long time, it wasn't taken seriously enough.
0:50:52 > 0:50:55So the priority has to be to create the conditions so people feel
0:50:55 > 0:50:58that they can come forward and it will be taken seriously and it
0:50:58 > 0:51:02will be investigated.
0:51:02 > 0:51:04And the worry with naming and shaming and everything
0:51:04 > 0:51:07that is sort of implicit with that, is that you discourage
0:51:07 > 0:51:15people from doing that and we absolutely must avoid.
0:51:17 > 0:51:18it.
0:51:18 > 0:51:23But I do agree with you, actually.
0:51:23 > 0:51:26I do agree with you that people should be innocent until proven
0:51:26 > 0:51:28guilty and a culture of witchhunt of people before they've been proven
0:51:28 > 0:51:30guilty I think is absolutely wrong.
0:51:30 > 0:51:31APPLAUSE.
0:51:31 > 0:51:33The person at the very back there.
0:51:33 > 0:51:35I think it's important that we don't blame the police
0:51:35 > 0:51:38and the Crown Prosecution Service for failings in a time of austerity.
0:51:38 > 0:51:41A lot of the evidence that is not disclosed is because volumes
0:51:41 > 0:51:43of internet accessible data and they aren't given the resources
0:51:43 > 0:51:44to actually sift through it.
0:51:44 > 0:51:48So I think we need to consider why these cases are going pearshaped.
0:51:48 > 0:51:50You weren't critical when this evidence came up just before
0:51:50 > 0:51:52the trial that hadn't been revealed before?
0:51:52 > 0:51:54You think that was endemic in the way that the police
0:51:54 > 0:51:56are structured and the amount of time and money
0:51:56 > 0:51:57they have to spend?
0:51:57 > 0:51:59I agree.
0:51:59 > 0:52:00You agree with that.
0:52:00 > 0:52:01Have you spoken already?
0:52:01 > 0:52:03I'll just take one more point from you.
0:52:03 > 0:52:04Yes.
0:52:04 > 0:52:05Yeah.
0:52:05 > 0:52:06I think both parties need protection here,
0:52:06 > 0:52:08it's a very sensitive circumstance.
0:52:08 > 0:52:14The accused shouldn't be named until proven guilty.
0:52:14 > 0:52:16But secondly, the naming and shaming of the false accusers.
0:52:16 > 0:52:20The last thing we need to do is make the culture of fear in bringing
0:52:20 > 0:52:21a rape case to trial.
0:52:21 > 0:52:24That's the last thing we need to do, is to increase that culture of fear.
0:52:24 > 0:52:26OK.
0:52:26 > 0:52:27You, sir, over there.
0:52:27 > 0:52:28Yes.
0:52:28 > 0:52:30Surely, the CPS should be brought to book for bringing this
0:52:30 > 0:52:31evidence at the last minute?
0:52:31 > 0:52:34It's not just discovered.
0:52:34 > 0:52:38Surely, it's there all the time and they want to with hold it to get
0:52:38 > 0:52:41a prosecution going.
0:52:41 > 0:52:42All right.
0:52:42 > 0:52:44You, sir, in the middle, at the back there.
0:52:44 > 0:52:45Yes.
0:52:45 > 0:52:47I'd like to say that everyone in this audience,
0:52:47 > 0:52:50if you was accused of rape, and having to go through a court
0:52:50 > 0:52:53case, a horrendous court case with media on your family,
0:52:53 > 0:52:56media on you all the time and then you was proven not guilty,
0:52:56 > 0:52:59you've got to live with that for the rest of your life.
0:52:59 > 0:53:01Can everyone imagine what that's going to be like,
0:53:01 > 0:53:03going down the supermarket.
0:53:03 > 0:53:07"Oh, he was the person..."
0:53:07 > 0:53:13You can easily get tarnished.
0:53:13 > 0:53:15I certainly agree that you can't go naming
0:53:15 > 0:53:16and shaming the people that
0:53:16 > 0:53:18are fausely accusing you because, yes, there will be
0:53:18 > 0:53:20a witchhunt for them as well.
0:53:20 > 0:53:25It's a very difficult subject, but certainly...
0:53:25 > 0:53:26The woman there, the fourth row.
0:53:26 > 0:53:28I'm wondering whether you would include people
0:53:28 > 0:53:29accused of child abuse.
0:53:29 > 0:53:31Would you expect them not to be named as well
0:53:31 > 0:53:33or is that a different matter?
0:53:33 > 0:53:36Not until they're guilty.
0:53:36 > 0:53:37Not unitl they're guilty.
0:53:37 > 0:53:38What do you think?
0:53:38 > 0:53:46Well, I think these people are accused of crimes
0:53:47 > 0:53:50and in the ordinary way, people that are accused of crimes
0:53:50 > 0:53:51are generally named in the press.
0:53:51 > 0:53:52The woman over there.
0:53:52 > 0:53:55Surely, if you want to protect the men in case they're
0:53:55 > 0:53:58going to be falsely accused, the way round it is what's happening
0:53:58 > 0:54:01with the Black Cab driver, where he's now known and pther cases
0:54:01 > 0:54:06have been asked to be taken into consideration
0:54:06 > 0:54:08before his release now.
0:54:08 > 0:54:11So at that stage, once somebody has been proven guilty and they're
0:54:11 > 0:54:13inside for the crime, surely then at that stage
0:54:13 > 0:54:16other people will know who he is because it will be public
0:54:16 > 0:54:20knowledge and then they can come forward and ask for the case to be
0:54:20 > 0:54:21taken into consideration.
0:54:21 > 0:54:22It protects both.
0:54:22 > 0:54:23If he's been found guilty, yes.
0:54:23 > 0:54:25Yes, if he's been found guilty.
0:54:25 > 0:54:27Jo, very briefly, then we must move on.
0:54:27 > 0:54:29That is the case for having people named.
0:54:29 > 0:54:30Because that particular case, with that cab driver,
0:54:30 > 0:54:33he had drugged women that had got into his cab.
0:54:33 > 0:54:34Then he sexually assaulted them.
0:54:34 > 0:54:38By default, they didn't have memory of it, but then many more women came
0:54:38 > 0:54:41forward before actually that case had been convicted because they had
0:54:41 > 0:54:44had that similar experience and they suddenly saw the pattern
0:54:44 > 0:54:46of behaviour because they had woken up having been drugged,
0:54:46 > 0:54:54having got into a taxi and been offered some champagne by a cabbie
0:54:54 > 0:54:56apparently celebrating a Lottery win, and suddenly they woke up
0:54:56 > 0:54:57and what had happened to them.
0:54:57 > 0:54:59I would say to the gentleman in the audience.
0:54:59 > 0:55:02I understand it's a sensitive issue, but as well as putting yourself
0:55:02 > 0:55:05in the shoes of somebody that is accused in that way,
0:55:05 > 0:55:08also put yourself in the shoes of the person who is raped.
0:55:08 > 0:55:12A man or a woman, they have to live with that for the rest of their life
0:55:12 > 0:55:15and far too few of them currently get any justice whatsoever.
0:55:15 > 0:55:18All right.
0:55:18 > 0:55:19APPLAUSE.
0:55:19 > 0:55:22I will take this question quickly round the table
0:55:22 > 0:55:24from Benjamin Davenport-Laughton, please.
0:55:24 > 0:55:26We've got a couple of minutes left.
0:55:26 > 0:55:29Was it right that Westminster Council refused to erect a statue
0:55:29 > 0:55:30of Margaret Thatcher?
0:55:30 > 0:55:33Yes, it was announced there was going to be a statue
0:55:33 > 0:55:35of Margaret Thatcher in Westminster but for various reasons,
0:55:35 > 0:55:37civil disobedience, vandalism they said, it wasn't.
0:55:37 > 0:55:39But of course there is a big question about whether there
0:55:39 > 0:55:42should be one in Grantham, which is her hometown.
0:55:42 > 0:55:45What?
0:55:45 > 0:55:47Anyway, I will ask the panel.
0:55:47 > 0:55:49Should there be a statue?
0:55:49 > 0:55:50What do you think?
0:55:50 > 0:55:53Well, look, if the good people of Grantham want a statue
0:55:53 > 0:55:59of Margaret Thatcher, then I think they should have one.
0:55:59 > 0:56:01What about in Westminster, along with Churchill and Mandela
0:56:01 > 0:56:03and all the other figures that are in...
0:56:03 > 0:56:06Let's just say, I certainly won't be paying homage to the statue
0:56:06 > 0:56:09of Margaret Thatcher.
0:56:09 > 0:56:13I sort of support the decision of Westminster Council.
0:56:13 > 0:56:14Justine Greening?
0:56:14 > 0:56:16I think it's a real shame, actually.
0:56:16 > 0:56:18I think it would have been great to have a statue.
0:56:18 > 0:56:20I think, whatever you might think of her policies,
0:56:20 > 0:56:22she's our first female Prime Minister and we're
0:56:22 > 0:56:27celebrating 100 years since women first got the vote.
0:56:27 > 0:56:30APPLAUSE
0:56:30 > 0:56:33I think these are important moments and she was an important person
0:56:33 > 0:56:36in this country's history for men and especially though for women,
0:56:36 > 0:56:39and I think we should have had a statue of her.
0:56:39 > 0:56:41Do you think it will be overturned?
0:56:41 > 0:56:44I hope so.
0:56:44 > 0:56:52Not the statue I mean, the decision.
0:56:55 > 0:56:57This is about our history.
0:56:57 > 0:56:58All right.
0:56:58 > 0:56:59Very briefly, John Mann.
0:56:59 > 0:57:02We've got to go round quickly because we're going to the end.
0:57:02 > 0:57:04There's one in the Palace of Westminster and when Margaret
0:57:04 > 0:57:06Thatcher unveiled it, there was a little lad from one
0:57:06 > 0:57:08of my mining villages, a seven-year-old lad down
0:57:08 > 0:57:11in parliament, and ran over to it and he said, "Well, we don't
0:57:11 > 0:57:13like you where we come from."
0:57:13 > 0:57:14So it can cut both ways.
0:57:14 > 0:57:16Local decision-making, but there certainly won't be one
0:57:16 > 0:57:19in any of the former mining constituencies, I can assure you.
0:57:19 > 0:57:20Jo Swinson.
0:57:20 > 0:57:22Well, I'm not a fan of Margaret Thatcher's politics,
0:57:22 > 0:57:26but I was born in 1980 and, when I was growing up as a little
0:57:26 > 0:57:31girl, it never crossed my mind that a woman couldn't be Prime Minister.
0:57:31 > 0:57:34And I didn't realise actually how unusual that was at the time.
0:57:34 > 0:57:37There are far too few statues and pictures of women
0:57:37 > 0:57:39within the grounds of Westminster.
0:57:39 > 0:57:42When you go around the corridors, you look around and it's
0:57:42 > 0:57:43blokes, blokes, blokes.
0:57:43 > 0:57:46If we can't have a statue of the first woman Prime Minister,
0:57:46 > 0:57:50I think that is actually a very sad thing, regardless of her politics.
0:57:50 > 0:57:52APPLAUSE
0:57:52 > 0:57:55And Tim Stanley.
0:57:55 > 0:57:57They should definitely have a statue to Margaret Thatcher
0:57:57 > 0:58:00and in the spirit of Thatcherism it should be made of iron,
0:58:00 > 0:58:05it should be value-for-money and it should have a massive handbag
0:58:05 > 0:58:10to beat any protests or vandals who go near.
0:58:10 > 0:58:13APPLAUSE
0:58:13 > 0:58:14All right.
0:58:14 > 0:58:17Thank you very much.
0:58:17 > 0:58:20Thank you all, our hour is up.
0:58:20 > 0:58:26Next Thursday, I said earlier, we're going to be
0:58:26 > 0:58:27in Darlington.
0:58:27 > 0:58:29Emily Thornberry, the Shadow Foreign Secretary,
0:58:29 > 0:58:31will be one of those on the panel in Darlington.
0:58:31 > 0:58:32The week after that we're going to be in Yeovil.
0:58:42 > 0:58:45If you'd like to be in either of those audiences, or you can go
0:58:45 > 0:58:48to the website for Question Time and apply there which
0:58:48 > 0:58:49is just as effective.
0:58:49 > 0:58:52If you want to have your say on any of the many topics
0:58:52 > 0:58:54we've discussed tonight, Question Time Extra Time
0:58:54 > 0:58:55is on 5Live right now.
0:58:55 > 0:58:57If you want to watch it, press the Red Button,
0:58:57 > 0:59:00you get it on television or go to the BBC iPlayer.
0:59:00 > 0:59:03But here, my thanks to all of you on this panel
0:59:03 > 0:59:06and to all of you who came here to Grantham tonight to take
0:59:06 > 0:59:07part in the programme.
0:59:07 > 0:59:08Until next Thursday, good night.
0:59:08 > 0:59:16APPLAUSE