0:00:07 > 0:00:15Tonight, we're in Darlington and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20And with us here tonight, a former banker and advisor
0:00:20 > 0:00:22to George Osborne, now the Government's Energy
0:00:22 > 0:00:27Minister - Claire Perry.
0:00:27 > 0:00:30A human rights lawyer before going into politics,
0:00:30 > 0:00:31and Jeremy Corbyn's occasional stand-in at Prime
0:00:31 > 0:00:35Minister's Questions - the Shadow Foreign Secretary,
0:00:35 > 0:00:36Emily Thornberry. Property developer, champion
0:00:36 > 0:00:39of academy schools and co-chair of the pro-Brexit pressure group
0:00:39 > 0:00:42Leave Means Leave, Richard Tice. Rachel Sylvester, political
0:00:42 > 0:00:46columnist on The Times.
0:00:46 > 0:00:48And a long-standing supporter of Manchester music
0:00:48 > 0:00:51and Manchester United, the broadcaster,
0:00:51 > 0:00:52Terry Christian.
0:00:52 > 0:01:00APPLAUSE.
0:01:08 > 0:01:11And do remember, as ever, watching at home, of course, using Twitter.
0:01:11 > 0:01:12Our hashtag is bbcqt.
0:01:12 > 0:01:15Twitter and Facebook to carry on the arguments
0:01:15 > 0:01:19that are happening here.
0:01:19 > 0:01:24Our first question comes tonight from Katie Woolsey, please.
0:01:24 > 0:01:28Should female Tesco check-out staff, who want to be paid the same
0:01:28 > 0:01:30as male warehouse staff, apply for a transfer
0:01:30 > 0:01:32into the warehouse?
0:01:32 > 0:01:34Right.
0:01:34 > 0:01:39Tesco, of course, who face, it is said, something
0:01:39 > 0:01:42like a £4 billion bill for having paid women in one area less
0:01:42 > 0:01:43than men in another.
0:01:43 > 0:01:44Richard Tice, you are a businessman.
0:01:44 > 0:01:46What do you think?
0:01:49 > 0:01:51Well look, we had the Equal Pay Act in 1970.
0:01:51 > 0:01:58So we've got a fantastic start.
0:01:58 > 0:02:01But the reality is we've got to have equal pay for equal jobs.
0:02:01 > 0:02:03I mean, that has to be the basic understanding.
0:02:03 > 0:02:06If you start to try to compare different, the value of different
0:02:06 > 0:02:08jobs within the same organisation, then I think it becomes
0:02:08 > 0:02:09much more difficult.
0:02:09 > 0:02:11But it's always up for debate.
0:02:11 > 0:02:13We must always do better than we are currently doing.
0:02:13 > 0:02:17It's a scandal that having had that Equal Pay Act for over 40 years,
0:02:17 > 0:02:19these issues are still around, whether it is in the BBC,
0:02:19 > 0:02:21Tesco's or other major multinational corporations.
0:02:21 > 0:02:24But are you saying it's not possible to decide whether there is equal
0:02:24 > 0:02:28work to match equal pay?
0:02:28 > 0:02:30It's clearly much easier to work out, if you've got the same job,
0:02:30 > 0:02:33and you've got a woman and a man, that's very easy.
0:02:33 > 0:02:36If you are trying to value a warehouse job compared to someone
0:02:36 > 0:02:38working on the shop floor the checkout, that
0:02:38 > 0:02:40actually is much harder.
0:02:40 > 0:02:42How do you value what it's worth to the business?
0:02:42 > 0:02:44Everybody is worth something to the business.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47But that is much harder.
0:02:47 > 0:02:50Emily Thornberry?
0:02:50 > 0:02:53I think the time and time again when you look at these jobs,
0:02:53 > 0:02:56the ones that are low paid are always the women's jobs.
0:02:56 > 0:02:59That's how it is.
0:02:59 > 0:03:01And it drives me crazy, you know.
0:03:01 > 0:03:03Barbara Castle introduced the Equal Pay Act in 1970.
0:03:03 > 0:03:06I bet she'd be turning in her grave to see that it's
0:03:06 > 0:03:08still going on and that women are still systematically
0:03:08 > 0:03:09paid less than men.
0:03:09 > 0:03:11The women who are working on the checkout Tesco's
0:03:11 > 0:03:15are working just as long hours.
0:03:15 > 0:03:18They're just as important to Tesco's as those who work in the warehouse.
0:03:18 > 0:03:19It's just that they're the blokes.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22And the ones that are paid less, yet again, are the women.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25And you know many of the jobs that are largely women's jobs
0:03:25 > 0:03:26are the most valuable.
0:03:26 > 0:03:30So looking after your mum, give it to social care workers
0:03:30 > 0:03:31and they are usually women.
0:03:31 > 0:03:33And guess what?
0:03:33 > 0:03:36We pay them as little amount of money as we possibly
0:03:36 > 0:03:39can within the law. Or our precious four-year-olds.
0:03:39 > 0:03:41They are looked after again largely by women and largely
0:03:41 > 0:03:43paid the least amount.
0:03:43 > 0:03:43I do not believe...
0:03:43 > 0:03:45What about Tesco, which the question was about?
0:03:45 > 0:03:48I'm just saying that it's a coincidence, isn't it,
0:03:48 > 0:03:51it's more than a coincidence that it's the blokes in the warehouse
0:03:51 > 0:03:54getting paid more than the women in the checkout and it is
0:03:54 > 0:03:56because certain things are seen as women's work.
0:03:56 > 0:03:59And therefore, almost by definition, they're not seen as valuable.
0:03:59 > 0:04:03And yet many of the bits of work, many of the work that women do
0:04:03 > 0:04:04are actually really valuable.
0:04:04 > 0:04:07Looking after a four-year-old, why is that less valuable
0:04:07 > 0:04:10than being a banker, or anything else?
0:04:10 > 0:04:14This is the way that our society is structured.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16Sorry, are you arguing for equal pay for bankers and mothers
0:04:16 > 0:04:17of four-year-old children?
0:04:17 > 0:04:19I'm not following your argument.
0:04:19 > 0:04:27There are largely 12 jobs, different workforces
0:04:27 > 0:04:29in which women go into.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32They're very similar to the sort of work that women do at home.
0:04:32 > 0:04:34And time and time again it is undervalued.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36Whether it is secretarial work, nursing, caring, teaching.
0:04:36 > 0:04:38All of these things tend to be women's work
0:04:38 > 0:04:39and they tend to be overpaid.
0:04:39 > 0:04:41We have to think about that.
0:04:41 > 0:04:42You sir, up there?
0:04:42 > 0:04:45The man with the spectacles.
0:04:45 > 0:04:48Having worked in one of the top supermarket chains,
0:04:48 > 0:04:50I've seen both the shop floor type of work and the warehouse
0:04:50 > 0:04:52type of work.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55I can say for a fact, working on the shop floor
0:04:55 > 0:04:58you are speaking to the customers.
0:04:58 > 0:05:01In the warehouse it is noisy, it is loud, it is cold.
0:05:01 > 0:05:04It is hard, hard graft.
0:05:04 > 0:05:07So I think trying to compare shop floor work with warehouse work,
0:05:07 > 0:05:10I think it's not the same.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12I'm not saying it's the same.
0:05:12 > 0:05:13I'm not saying it's the same.
0:05:13 > 0:05:15It's different work but it's just as valuable.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17The woman there in the centre?
0:05:17 > 0:05:18OK, I've got your point.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21You, madam?
0:05:21 > 0:05:24I can see what Emily is saying, but you have got two jobs
0:05:24 > 0:05:28in Tesco's, so it should be two separate job scales.
0:05:28 > 0:05:31My take on the equality pay is more based on what has happened
0:05:31 > 0:05:33recently at the BBC.
0:05:33 > 0:05:36Why did the men feel that the only way they could step up
0:05:36 > 0:05:39for their women's colleagues was to take a pay cut?
0:05:39 > 0:05:44Why did they not actually challenge their bosses to bring
0:05:44 > 0:05:47the women's pay in line with theirs for the same job role?
0:05:47 > 0:05:50It's two different job roles at Tesco's, it's not at the BBC.
0:05:51 > 0:05:53Go on then.
0:05:53 > 0:05:55Terry Christian?
0:05:55 > 0:05:59I was going to say it's a lot trickier at Tesco's -
0:05:59 > 0:06:06and it's one for lawyers - than it is at the BBC.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09If you think about John Humphrys, God bless him, harrumphing about art
0:06:09 > 0:06:13and new technology while reading the editorial from the Daily Mail,
0:06:13 > 0:06:16then you've got to wonder is he really worth four times
0:06:16 > 0:06:18what a female broadcaster does when she is doing exactly
0:06:18 > 0:06:19the same job as him?
0:06:19 > 0:06:27It is one for the lawyers at Tesco.
0:06:37 > 0:06:42Even when women and men do any good job there is still a gender pay gap.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45Iceland made it illegal to pay a man more than a woman. Does the UK need
0:06:45 > 0:06:52to follow that example?Claire Perry?
0:06:52 > 0:06:55Look, it's 100 years since some women got the vote.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58And I still find it incredible that there are jobs out there,
0:06:58 > 0:07:00including at the BBC, where women are systematically paid
0:07:00 > 0:07:02less for doing exactly the same job as a man.
0:07:02 > 0:07:05And it's really good the gender pay gap is at its lowest level.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07We've brought forward lots of proposals, so companies have
0:07:07 > 0:07:10to disclose what they are paying, so does the public sector,
0:07:10 > 0:07:11so does government.
0:07:11 > 0:07:14I think this is a complicated case, as the gentleman said,
0:07:14 > 0:07:16because there is nothing to stop women taking on those jobs.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20But we have seen time and time again, we had the big cases in local
0:07:20 > 0:07:22government and few years ago where women had to fight
0:07:22 > 0:07:25through the courts to get equal pay for the same jobs.
0:07:25 > 0:07:26It's got to stop.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29We have half the workforce now as women.
0:07:29 > 0:07:33We know we are going to be wanting to work for longer and we have
0:07:33 > 0:07:36to make sure that we are giving women exactly the same
0:07:36 > 0:07:39pay and rights as we, as some of us got with the vote
0:07:39 > 0:07:40100 years ago.
0:07:40 > 0:07:42Certainly in supermarkets as well, the women are not unionised.
0:07:42 > 0:07:45Now maybe if they were in a trade union, they could collectively
0:07:45 > 0:07:46bargain and they wouldn't get that.
0:07:46 > 0:07:49And one of the problems, my mum used to always say this,
0:07:49 > 0:07:53one of the reasons women are often paid less than men is they seemed
0:07:53 > 0:07:56very reluctant to join trade unions in the past.
0:07:56 > 0:08:01And even now, women are often, in jobs, decent jobs,
0:08:01 > 0:08:04will often do unpaid overtime because they may be a bit more
0:08:04 > 0:08:05conscientious than the blokes.
0:08:05 > 0:08:08But they shouldn't be doing it really because they are driving
0:08:08 > 0:08:10their own wages down and everybody else's.
0:08:10 > 0:08:12Let me go back to Katie Woolsey, who asked the question.
0:08:12 > 0:08:13What is your view?
0:08:13 > 0:08:16I agree with the man over there.
0:08:16 > 0:08:19I think that if people, if women want to go and work
0:08:19 > 0:08:22in the warehouse, go and apply for the job.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25Why should they get paid more?
0:08:25 > 0:08:28I wouldn't mind sitting on my behind all day scanning stuff
0:08:28 > 0:08:36and chatting to people.
0:08:38 > 0:08:40I know about working in a warehouse - because I actually
0:08:40 > 0:08:43do work in a warehouse, by the way I run my own business
0:08:43 > 0:08:46and I have a warehouse, and I was there today.
0:08:46 > 0:08:47It was freezing cold.
0:08:47 > 0:08:48It is dirty and it is dusty.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51I'd like to see the women apply for those jobs
0:08:51 > 0:08:53if they want to be paid the same as the men.
0:08:53 > 0:08:54Rachel Sylvester?
0:08:54 > 0:08:56APPLAUSE.
0:08:56 > 0:08:57I think there is still a huge issue.
0:08:57 > 0:09:01There is an 18% gap on average between what men and women earn,
0:09:01 > 0:09:03and there are all kinds of reasons for that.
0:09:03 > 0:09:04For the same jobs.
0:09:04 > 0:09:05Not for the same jobs.
0:09:05 > 0:09:08But the problem with this is it about what society values.
0:09:08 > 0:09:12So society values less the caring roles, whether it is being a carer,
0:09:12 > 0:09:15a cleaner, a dinner lady, compared to what is seen
0:09:15 > 0:09:17as the strength and muscular roles.
0:09:17 > 0:09:19And I think that's a big problem.
0:09:19 > 0:09:22You can't get around that.
0:09:22 > 0:09:27That is about social values as much as about employment law.
0:09:27 > 0:09:29I will come to you.
0:09:29 > 0:09:31What's particularly disappointing, we are one of the worst
0:09:31 > 0:09:33in Europe at this.
0:09:33 > 0:09:35It's always only Germany that is worse than us.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38I think one of the ways, the government has to be much more
0:09:38 > 0:09:39ambitious with its targets.
0:09:39 > 0:09:46I think we need many more great women in senior
0:09:46 > 0:09:47roles in corporations, and then it's much
0:09:47 > 0:09:48less likely to happen.
0:09:48 > 0:09:50So that really has to be an objective.
0:09:50 > 0:09:51Emily?
0:09:51 > 0:09:54I was just going to say, we need a new Equal Pay Act.
0:09:54 > 0:09:57We need an updated Equal Pay Act that really addresses this issue.
0:09:57 > 0:10:01And I think one of the other issues that we need to put
0:10:01 > 0:10:03into the melting spot, if we are talking about the subject
0:10:03 > 0:10:06more generally, is when women start working part time after they've had
0:10:06 > 0:10:08kids or when they have caring responsibilities
0:10:08 > 0:10:09for elderly relatives.
0:10:09 > 0:10:10And then they are vulnerable.
0:10:10 > 0:10:13Then they are more likely to take more lower paid jobs.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15And they don't apply for a promotion because there
0:10:15 > 0:10:18are so grateful to be able to work whether part-time are flexibly.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20And we have to start thinking about that as well,
0:10:20 > 0:10:24because we are losing a very large part of the workforce and we are not
0:10:24 > 0:10:25valuing them properly.
0:10:25 > 0:10:28What do you say to Katie Woolsey's point though about warehouse
0:10:28 > 0:10:28and working indoors?
0:10:28 > 0:10:29That they are not equal?
0:10:29 > 0:10:33I'm not saying they are the same job, they are different jobs.
0:10:33 > 0:10:37But for Tesco's to have people working on the cashpoints and to be
0:10:37 > 0:10:40talking to customers and to be the face of Tesco's is a very
0:10:40 > 0:10:41important job as well.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44It ought to be valued in the same way, in my view,
0:10:44 > 0:10:46as people working in the warehouse.
0:10:46 > 0:10:49Yes of course it's a different job.
0:10:49 > 0:10:53But why is it that we are valuing blokes' jobs more than we are
0:10:53 > 0:10:53valuing women's jobs?
0:10:53 > 0:10:56But nobody stopping the women from applying for those jobs.
0:10:56 > 0:10:57That is what I'm saying.
0:10:57 > 0:10:59Nobody is stopping a woman from going to work
0:10:59 > 0:11:00on a construction site.
0:11:00 > 0:11:03APPLAUSE.
0:11:03 > 0:11:06The truth is the women don't want to do them dirty jobs.
0:11:06 > 0:11:08They really don't want to do them.
0:11:08 > 0:11:14And if there were more men, for example, doing childcare,
0:11:14 > 0:11:17or caring for the elderly, I bet those salaries would go up.
0:11:17 > 0:11:18I bet they would.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21I'm sorry, but what about people who can't physically
0:11:21 > 0:11:22work in warehouses?
0:11:22 > 0:11:25Why should they settle for a lower wage?
0:11:25 > 0:11:27It is an equal job, they are working the same hours,
0:11:27 > 0:11:29people that have disabilities and so forth cannot
0:11:29 > 0:11:37apply for that job.
0:11:37 > 0:11:40Why is that seen as a dirty job when things like nursing,
0:11:40 > 0:11:43looking after people in all sorts of conditions, they are working
0:11:43 > 0:11:46all sorts of hours and they don't have the same equal pay and the same
0:11:46 > 0:11:48sort of recognition amongst society?
0:11:48 > 0:11:49All right.
0:11:49 > 0:11:51And the woman at the very back there.
0:11:51 > 0:11:53Can I just say, I worked for Asda for two years,
0:11:53 > 0:11:55just about eight months ago.
0:11:55 > 0:11:57And I'm sorry, but what the lady over there about the warehouse,
0:11:57 > 0:12:00it's nothing but insulting coming from one woman to another woman.
0:12:00 > 0:12:01APPLAUSE.
0:12:01 > 0:12:02The people in Asda...
0:12:02 > 0:12:05I'm not quite sure how Tesco works.
0:12:05 > 0:12:08I worked in Asda, I worked on the shop floor lugging things
0:12:08 > 0:12:10around, pulling things.
0:12:10 > 0:12:13I worked with customers.
0:12:13 > 0:12:16I was a customer...
0:12:16 > 0:12:20I was - I went on checkouts, in emergencies.
0:12:20 > 0:12:22I also worked in the warehouse.
0:12:22 > 0:12:24I pulled orders.
0:12:24 > 0:12:26If need be, we split orders down.
0:12:26 > 0:12:33Were you on equal pay to the men?
0:12:33 > 0:12:35We were on equal pay but not to the people
0:12:35 > 0:12:38in the central warehouses, which I think is what
0:12:38 > 0:12:39is being discussed.
0:12:39 > 0:12:40Right, OK.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42But that's the case.
0:12:42 > 0:12:43Those people had an easier job.
0:12:43 > 0:12:45They just literally loaded everything on.
0:12:45 > 0:12:49It was when it got to the stars that we had the hard work.
0:12:49 > 0:12:51They should be paid less, you are saying?
0:12:51 > 0:12:54They should be paid the same as us, not more.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57And the man up there and then we must move on.
0:12:57 > 0:12:59The man at the very back with his spectacles on,
0:12:59 > 0:13:00on the right there. Yes?
0:13:00 > 0:13:04When people went for a job they applied, they were interviewed,
0:13:04 > 0:13:05they knew what the job was about and they knew
0:13:05 > 0:13:07what the pay was.
0:13:07 > 0:13:10So you are at liberty not to accept it.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12Where is the problem?
0:13:12 > 0:13:15APPLAUSE.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18I think we'd better go on.
0:13:18 > 0:13:23We've raised a lot of questions there.
0:13:23 > 0:13:26Just before we go on, where question Time is going to be next.
0:13:26 > 0:13:27Yeovil next week.
0:13:27 > 0:13:31And Uttoxeter the week after that.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34On the screen are the details of how to apply, and I will, as always,
0:13:34 > 0:13:37give them at the end if you don't have a chance to make
0:13:37 > 0:13:39a note of them now.
0:13:39 > 0:13:42Right, let's have a question from Natasha Telford, please.
0:13:42 > 0:13:45Is it fair that local authorities have to take the blame for having
0:13:45 > 0:13:46to increase council tax?
0:13:46 > 0:13:49Is it fair that local authorities have to take the blame for having
0:13:49 > 0:13:50to increase council tax?
0:13:50 > 0:13:53We heard that council tax, on average, is going up in almost
0:13:53 > 0:13:55every council in England - Scotland is different, of course -
0:13:55 > 0:13:59by 6%, or just under the 6% limit that they have to go to.
0:13:59 > 0:14:01Is it fair that councils should have to do this,
0:14:01 > 0:14:03because they are not getting money from government?
0:14:03 > 0:14:06Claire Perry.
0:14:06 > 0:14:08I think one of the things I find is that people,
0:14:08 > 0:14:10the closer they see money being spent to them,
0:14:10 > 0:14:13the more they feel they are involved in those decisions.
0:14:13 > 0:14:16One of the terrible things a few years ago when I first came
0:14:16 > 0:14:18into politics, only 30% of people thought they had any
0:14:18 > 0:14:22influence over the way any of the money was spent locally.
0:14:22 > 0:14:25So, actually, we know the incredible role that councils play in providing
0:14:25 > 0:14:27social care services, children's services,
0:14:27 > 0:14:29picking up the rubbish, putting in the recycling
0:14:29 > 0:14:32bins, or not.
0:14:32 > 0:14:35I think the more that money is spent closer to us,
0:14:35 > 0:14:37the more we feel it's delivering value, or we have a
0:14:37 > 0:14:40chance to change it.
0:14:40 > 0:14:42We all know we're going to have to change the way
0:14:42 > 0:14:45we fund social care.
0:14:45 > 0:14:47I know in Wiltshire, where the council taxes
0:14:47 > 0:14:49are going up, people feel it is reasonable.
0:14:49 > 0:14:52In general, people are happier now with public services than they have
0:14:52 > 0:14:53been in many a year.
0:14:53 > 0:14:54Hang on, hang on...
0:14:54 > 0:14:55They are!
0:14:55 > 0:14:56People are happier...
0:14:56 > 0:14:58Well, people say they are happier with the public services
0:14:58 > 0:15:02than they have been in a long time.
0:15:02 > 0:15:05The point of the question, why have you deliberately cut money
0:15:05 > 0:15:08from taxpayers to the councils by 40% since 2010, and put
0:15:08 > 0:15:09all of that on the councils?
0:15:09 > 0:15:15That was the point of the question.
0:15:15 > 0:15:17I was out today with your fantastic combined local authority...
0:15:17 > 0:15:20Yeah, are you going to answer that question?
0:15:20 > 0:15:22Who are working collectively on the Teesside SSI site,
0:15:22 > 0:15:25which is going to be absolutely amazing.
0:15:25 > 0:15:27And there is a huge devolution deal behind that.
0:15:27 > 0:15:30Almost half a billion over the next 30 years.
0:15:30 > 0:15:32I think that money, coming out to local government,
0:15:32 > 0:15:36being spent locally, is the right thing to do.
0:15:36 > 0:15:39But, hang on, the question Natasha asked, is it fair local authorities
0:15:39 > 0:15:40have to take the blame.
0:15:40 > 0:15:42You know perfectly well what the issue is.
0:15:42 > 0:15:44Local councils have lost 40% of their money
0:15:44 > 0:15:45from central government.
0:15:45 > 0:15:48And they are lumbered with having to raise it from house owners.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52There are a whole series of settlements, we wanted to make
0:15:52 > 0:15:54sure that the business rates, which are raised locally,
0:15:54 > 0:15:56and historically went whistling back to Westminster,
0:15:56 > 0:15:58that they are actually kept and spent locally.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01To me, this is about changing the funding base so that more money
0:16:01 > 0:16:03is raised locally and spent locally.
0:16:03 > 0:16:05Do you think it is fair, Rachel?
0:16:05 > 0:16:07No, I think the Government is passing the buck to local
0:16:07 > 0:16:09councils, particularly on social care.
0:16:09 > 0:16:15APPLAUSE.
0:16:15 > 0:16:19There has been something like £6 billion cut from the social
0:16:19 > 0:16:20care budgets alone.
0:16:20 > 0:16:25That is the reason for our NHS crisis now this winter.
0:16:25 > 0:16:28There are something like one in ten beds in the NHS are now filled
0:16:28 > 0:16:31with people who are well to go home, but can't do that,
0:16:31 > 0:16:34because there is nowhere to look after them in the community.
0:16:34 > 0:16:38Care homes are closing, domiciliary care services can't cope.
0:16:38 > 0:16:42Councils have had to cut the amount of money they are paying to care
0:16:42 > 0:16:44homes, so the whole system is absolutely creaking.
0:16:44 > 0:16:46I think there is a failure of leadership from Theresa May
0:16:46 > 0:16:49and the Government not to take a national decision
0:16:49 > 0:16:51about a national crisis.
0:16:51 > 0:16:55So you think taxes should go up to pay for these things?
0:16:55 > 0:16:57I think there should be some kind of hypothecated health
0:16:57 > 0:16:58and social care tax.
0:16:58 > 0:16:59This isn't a situation...
0:16:59 > 0:17:02Hypothecated being money that is raised just for the NHS?
0:17:02 > 0:17:05Not just for the NHS, but also for social care.
0:17:05 > 0:17:11This isn't something that's to do with NHS efficiencies.
0:17:11 > 0:17:13Why do you think they won't do this?
0:17:13 > 0:17:14It's to do with the ageing population.
0:17:14 > 0:17:16Why won't the Government act on this?
0:17:16 > 0:17:19Well, I think Jeremy Hunt would quite like to do it, actually.
0:17:19 > 0:17:20There's cross-party support.
0:17:20 > 0:17:23I've talked to Labour MPs, Tory MPs and Liberal Democrat MPs, all think
0:17:23 > 0:17:24this is a really good idea.
0:17:24 > 0:17:26All acknowledge there is a huge crisis.
0:17:26 > 0:17:29All acknowledge that, actually, you can't put this on to local
0:17:29 > 0:17:30councils alone any more, as Natasha said.
0:17:30 > 0:17:33And I think it's time now for the Government to act.
0:17:33 > 0:17:39A lot of it goes back to Thatcher, because she was the first one,
0:17:39 > 0:17:42funnily enough, to start bringing the money back in from
0:17:42 > 0:17:44the local councils and then rate-capping those councils.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47Now, the Tories have always been the party of indirect taxation.
0:17:47 > 0:17:49So they would always tax in a way that you couldn't
0:17:49 > 0:17:51blame them directly.
0:17:51 > 0:17:54You know, back in the old days, when we had nationalised
0:17:54 > 0:17:57gas and electricity, and water, and stuff like that,
0:17:57 > 0:18:04if your water or your gas bill went up, you'd blame the Government.
0:18:04 > 0:18:06Or you'd blame your local council directly.
0:18:06 > 0:18:08Once you privatise it, you take that away.
0:18:08 > 0:18:10And so it's like, ooh, it's nothing to do with us.
0:18:10 > 0:18:11And this is the problem.
0:18:11 > 0:18:13Now, with libraries shutting down, everywhere is creaking
0:18:13 > 0:18:15because the whole country is in a mess.
0:18:15 > 0:18:16And to use...
0:18:16 > 0:18:20APPLAUSE.
0:18:20 > 0:18:24To use a quite vacuous statement, which is used a lot nowadays,
0:18:24 > 0:18:29I think, what do they say, no deal is better than a bad deal?
0:18:29 > 0:18:32I'd say no leader is better than a bad leader.
0:18:32 > 0:18:34What are you talking about?
0:18:34 > 0:18:36At the moment we have no leadership in this country.
0:18:36 > 0:18:37Honestly!
0:18:37 > 0:18:40We've got no government.
0:18:40 > 0:18:41Richard Tice?
0:18:41 > 0:18:42Let's stick to the question.
0:18:42 > 0:18:45I've just stuck to the question.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48We are taxpayers, we all want our taxes to be spent well,
0:18:48 > 0:18:51whether it is at central government or local authority.
0:18:51 > 0:18:54Coming back to Natasha's question, clearly, local authorities can't
0:18:54 > 0:18:56absolve themselves to spending that money wisely.
0:18:56 > 0:19:02We want it to be spent well, efficiently and smartly.
0:19:02 > 0:19:04So, there is, of course, there is always pressure on budgets.
0:19:04 > 0:19:05There always will be.
0:19:05 > 0:19:07But they can't absolve themselves of that blame.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09They've got responsibilities at the local level, they need
0:19:09 > 0:19:10to spend the money well.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13When it comes to caring for people, that's expensive.
0:19:13 > 0:19:15And that's got to be taken into account.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18So local budgets...
0:19:18 > 0:19:21Of course, it's going up, and it's all coming down the NHS.
0:19:21 > 0:19:23I'll come to Emily Thornberry in a moment.
0:19:23 > 0:19:28I'll go to the man there in spectacles.
0:19:28 > 0:19:31Let's hear from one or two people who have to foot these bill.
0:19:31 > 0:19:32Yes?
0:19:32 > 0:19:33The woman there, yes?
0:19:33 > 0:19:34You.
0:19:34 > 0:19:37In addition to adult social care, there is also a massive problem
0:19:37 > 0:19:39in children's social care that we don't talk
0:19:39 > 0:19:40about nearly enough.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43The most vulnerable children in our society.
0:19:43 > 0:19:45The Local Government Association says that by 2020 I believe
0:19:45 > 0:19:49there is going to be a £2 billion national deficit in this area.
0:19:49 > 0:19:51And we are seeing such an increase in demand in the north-east
0:19:51 > 0:19:54because children and young people are being brought into care through
0:19:54 > 0:19:55neglect in this age of austerity.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58And is it your view that...
0:19:58 > 0:20:00APPLAUSE
0:20:00 > 0:20:03As Terry was saying, is it your view this as deliberate
0:20:03 > 0:20:06action by the Government to put the burden local councils?
0:20:09 > 0:20:10I do.
0:20:10 > 0:20:13And I think it's particularly targeted at Labour authorities
0:20:13 > 0:20:14in the north-east.
0:20:14 > 0:20:16We've had the worst cuts, and we are the ones that
0:20:16 > 0:20:18have the biggest...
0:20:18 > 0:20:20We are the ones that have the biggest...
0:20:20 > 0:20:24Not quite burdens, but we have a lot more demand in terms of social care.
0:20:24 > 0:20:26And fewer people who can foot their own bills.
0:20:26 > 0:20:28I'll give Claire a chance to answer in a moment.
0:20:28 > 0:20:29Emily Thornberry?
0:20:29 > 0:20:31Do you want me to speak?
0:20:31 > 0:20:32Yes.
0:20:32 > 0:20:33If you want to speak!
0:20:33 > 0:20:34I would love to speak.
0:20:34 > 0:20:36I have a lot to say.
0:20:36 > 0:20:38I've never known you not want to speak.
0:20:38 > 0:20:40I have a lot to say on this.
0:20:40 > 0:20:41You're right.
0:20:43 > 0:20:50Stick to the question that was put.
0:20:50 > 0:20:51In the end, local authorities' major income comes
0:20:51 > 0:20:53from central government.
0:20:53 > 0:20:54That's the truth.
0:20:54 > 0:20:56To put up council tax will never make up for the amount
0:20:56 > 0:20:58that councils are losing centrally from government.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01On average, it is 40% cuts, but you're absolutely right,
0:21:01 > 0:21:03guess what, the poorest areas are the ones that are
0:21:03 > 0:21:06getting the biggest cuts.
0:21:10 > 0:21:12So, you are not alone in the north east.
0:21:12 > 0:21:14Deprived inner-city boroughs like mine, we have got
0:21:14 > 0:21:1760% cuts in my area, where I have some of the worst child
0:21:17 > 0:21:18poverty in the country.
0:21:18 > 0:21:20So, what they are doing as they are cutting back
0:21:20 > 0:21:21the funds centrally.
0:21:21 > 0:21:23Then what they do is they decentralise the blame.
0:21:23 > 0:21:25So, they cut the money from central government
0:21:25 > 0:21:27and then local people say, what has happened
0:21:27 > 0:21:28to our bin service?
0:21:28 > 0:21:30Why are our streets so dirty?
0:21:30 > 0:21:31What is going on?
0:21:31 > 0:21:32And they blame the councillors.
0:21:32 > 0:21:34But, actually, it's central government and it is
0:21:34 > 0:21:35being done deliberately.
0:21:35 > 0:21:37And the chickens are coming home to roost.
0:21:37 > 0:21:39That is what's happening.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42And we know that the people who really suffer are those
0:21:42 > 0:21:44who are the most vulnerable, because councils absolutely have
0:21:44 > 0:21:46to look after children who are on the verge
0:21:46 > 0:21:47of going into care.
0:21:47 > 0:21:49And they don't have enough money.
0:21:49 > 0:21:51And councils have been telling this government,
0:21:51 > 0:21:54pleading with this government, councils of every stripe,
0:21:54 > 0:21:56and they just have cloth ears on this and will not listen.
0:21:56 > 0:21:59And as for social care...
0:22:01 > 0:22:04It's a pretty severe indictment, Claire Perry, what do you say?
0:22:04 > 0:22:07I admire her passion, but she is just wrong.
0:22:07 > 0:22:13And here's why.
0:22:13 > 0:22:15We talk about wanting to fund better our NHS, our social care,
0:22:15 > 0:22:16our vulnerable children services.
0:22:16 > 0:22:19And there are two ways, as you know, madam, because it sounds
0:22:19 > 0:22:22like you are a local government expert, to fund this.
0:22:22 > 0:22:24We can either increase borrowing or we can put up taxes,
0:22:24 > 0:22:26or we can cut costs.
0:22:26 > 0:22:28And I think councils have cut costs very effectively across the country
0:22:28 > 0:22:29over the last years.
0:22:29 > 0:22:32People have done an amazing job, we found lots of efficiencies.
0:22:32 > 0:22:33Yeah, tell Northampton!
0:22:33 > 0:22:34Do we put up taxes...
0:22:34 > 0:22:38Yes, round of applause for you, I think?
0:22:38 > 0:22:39That's very patronising.
0:22:39 > 0:22:43Do we put up taxes nationally, and put it all into the mix?
0:22:43 > 0:22:46An interesting question, do you ringfence it,
0:22:46 > 0:22:47which of course is what national insurance was originally
0:22:47 > 0:22:48supposed to be?
0:22:48 > 0:22:51Or do you raise taxes locally where people can see
0:22:51 > 0:22:52what they are being spent on?
0:22:52 > 0:22:55And when I talk to my constituents, delivering better social care is not
0:22:55 > 0:22:57some amorphous pot coming out of central government,
0:22:57 > 0:23:01it is joining up the GP surgeries, so that the frail elderly get home
0:23:01 > 0:23:02visits, they get kept out of hospital.
0:23:02 > 0:23:04It is working with the local hospital.
0:23:04 > 0:23:07I think so much of the solution for social care is better
0:23:07 > 0:23:08integration of health and social care...
0:23:08 > 0:23:10And money, Claire!
0:23:10 > 0:23:12You can't keep doing it on no money!
0:23:12 > 0:23:16And that's why...
0:23:16 > 0:23:18Claire, just answer this question, isn't it true, though, you say
0:23:18 > 0:23:21the local authorities should...
0:23:21 > 0:23:25It's better if they get the money locally, you stop them raising
0:23:25 > 0:23:31the money they get by limiting it at 6%.
0:23:31 > 0:23:35You don't let them raise the money that they might need to do this.
0:23:35 > 0:23:36Why do you do that?
0:23:36 > 0:23:40When there is an increase and people say I would be happy to pay a bit
0:23:40 > 0:23:43more for the NHS and for social care, and this is a contribution
0:23:43 > 0:23:45that we are making locally, what we know from Emily's team,
0:23:45 > 0:23:48and I don't like to get partisan, but sometimes the "cloth
0:23:48 > 0:23:53ears" is a little nasty, one of Emily's front bench spokesmen
0:23:53 > 0:23:56had to resign after exposing the plan to jack up council taxes,
0:23:56 > 0:23:59to jack up national income tax, and just spend more on everything.
0:23:59 > 0:24:00We have to make these choices.
0:24:00 > 0:24:02I think putting money into social care and vulnerable children
0:24:02 > 0:24:07is a really good justification for raising taxes.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09It's a cynical exercise in blame pushing.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12You know it is.
0:24:12 > 0:24:14You don't believe a word of what you are saying.
0:24:14 > 0:24:21APPLAUSE.
0:24:21 > 0:24:24OK, whether she believes what she is saying or not,
0:24:24 > 0:24:27let's go to members of our audience and just hear what they
0:24:27 > 0:24:28think of what she said.
0:24:28 > 0:24:29The woman in the...
0:24:29 > 0:24:30One, two, three...
0:24:30 > 0:24:31Yes, you, in the grey?
0:24:31 > 0:24:33So, you talk about integration being the solution.
0:24:33 > 0:24:35Privatisation of the NHS is such a cause of disintegration
0:24:35 > 0:24:37of services, services can't work with one another.
0:24:37 > 0:24:41It's becoming so much...
0:24:41 > 0:24:43It's much more poorly executed than it ever was.
0:24:43 > 0:24:44That's just not true, Madam.
0:24:44 > 0:24:47I'm really sorry to come back on this.
0:24:47 > 0:24:50So, when we talk about privatisation, we think
0:24:50 > 0:24:52about somehow charging people to visit local hospitals.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54For decades...
0:24:54 > 0:24:57No we don't!
0:24:57 > 0:25:01When we talk about privatisation, we think about public money...
0:25:01 > 0:25:03One at a time.
0:25:03 > 0:25:05Don't try and shout down on me.
0:25:05 > 0:25:06People hate to see politicians doing that.
0:25:06 > 0:25:07You're talking rubbish.
0:25:07 > 0:25:09In this area, in my area...
0:25:09 > 0:25:16APPLAUSE.
0:25:16 > 0:25:18We can exchange insults or we can talk about the facts.
0:25:18 > 0:25:21The facts are in my constituency and in this one, there
0:25:21 > 0:25:22are independent providers of services, providing
0:25:22 > 0:25:26services free for the NHS.
0:25:26 > 0:25:32Things run by Care International, Macmillan Nurses as an independent
0:25:32 > 0:25:34provider, that started under Tony Blair.
0:25:34 > 0:25:36It's continued because, actually, we shouldn't have ideology
0:25:36 > 0:25:37in the Health Service.
0:25:37 > 0:25:40We should protect it and make it free at the point of demand
0:25:40 > 0:25:41for everybody who needs it.
0:25:41 > 0:25:42The question...
0:25:42 > 0:25:44Stop the ideology and focus on the facts.
0:25:44 > 0:25:47Claire, the question is not about that.
0:25:47 > 0:25:49It's about local authorities, about the increase in rates.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51I was responding to the point about privatisation.
0:25:51 > 0:25:52The man there, in the third row?
0:25:52 > 0:25:56Yes, how about instead of cutting budgets and forcing local councils
0:25:56 > 0:26:03all over the country to put their taxes up,
0:26:03 > 0:26:07how about you cut the foreign aid budget and then that money could go
0:26:07 > 0:26:09towards other things that are needed in this country?
0:26:09 > 0:26:10I don't agree.
0:26:10 > 0:26:14Don't sit there shaking your head!
0:26:14 > 0:26:17It is sensible solution.
0:26:19 > 0:26:22Let's hear from the man at the back, there.
0:26:22 > 0:26:26I think we just need to look at, rather than what is coming
0:26:26 > 0:26:27in, what is going out.
0:26:27 > 0:26:29When you look at this local authority here,
0:26:29 > 0:26:32generally the net spend has been pretty consistent during this
0:26:32 > 0:26:36period of austerity.
0:26:36 > 0:26:38If you look at it also, it's the fact that councils
0:26:38 > 0:26:42have an obligation to carry out or provide a statutory service.
0:26:42 > 0:26:44This council here, again, spends on non-statutory services,
0:26:44 > 0:26:51and that's fine, as long as they are breaking even.
0:26:51 > 0:26:55But when it's costing a lot, we need to look at what we are actually
0:26:55 > 0:26:57spending our money on, not what is coming in.
0:26:57 > 0:26:59Are you saying that they are spending money
0:26:59 > 0:27:00they didn't need to spend?
0:27:00 > 0:27:02They are spending money on non-statutory services,
0:27:02 > 0:27:03which are making a loss.
0:27:03 > 0:27:04Like what?
0:27:04 > 0:27:05The Dolphin Centre.
0:27:05 > 0:27:06But it's great!
0:27:06 > 0:27:07It would be peanuts.
0:27:07 > 0:27:08Where we are sitting?
0:27:08 > 0:27:09Yes.
0:27:09 > 0:27:12Absolutely peanuts.
0:27:12 > 0:27:14Well, no, this is actually Central Hall.
0:27:14 > 0:27:15The Dolphin Centre is next door.
0:27:15 > 0:27:18But the swimming pool, and all that, where we have been all day?
0:27:18 > 0:27:20Not swimming, but getting ready for this programme.
0:27:20 > 0:27:22You think that shouldn't be funded by the council?
0:27:22 > 0:27:25Also, coming back to what is coming in, the Labour government, over
0:27:25 > 0:27:28the period of the Labour Government, council tax increased by 100%.
0:27:28 > 0:27:30Now, during this period of austerity, council tax
0:27:30 > 0:27:32is generally only increased by about 15%.
0:27:32 > 0:27:36So, you've got a significant imbalance there.
0:27:36 > 0:27:38Who would you like to have pay for the swimming pool?
0:27:38 > 0:27:40I think it should be private.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42Somebody basically makes a profit.
0:27:42 > 0:27:44OK.
0:27:44 > 0:27:48And you, in the second row?
0:27:48 > 0:27:52I work in health care, in a senior role.
0:27:52 > 0:27:55There is a reality about we do need to do more, we do need
0:27:55 > 0:27:58to integrate services, we are working very closely
0:27:58 > 0:28:00with our GP, primary care service, we are doing everything
0:28:00 > 0:28:03we can in that.
0:28:03 > 0:28:05But the absolute reality is there isn't enough
0:28:05 > 0:28:06funding to go around.
0:28:06 > 0:28:08And non-statutory services include services for very
0:28:08 > 0:28:14old, very frail people.
0:28:14 > 0:28:17How would you feel if your very old, very frail elderly mum
0:28:17 > 0:28:20was actually in need and wasn't able to access the services
0:28:20 > 0:28:22that were required?
0:28:22 > 0:28:25And then, despite all of the workaround integration,
0:28:25 > 0:28:28because they don't get the care that they need, they end up
0:28:28 > 0:28:31in hospital and stuck there?
0:28:31 > 0:28:32APPLAUSE.
0:28:32 > 0:28:33The man there?
0:28:33 > 0:28:37The woman, there, sorry.
0:28:37 > 0:28:41The fact is that the National Audit Office have produced a report to say
0:28:41 > 0:28:44that private finance, supporting strategy
0:28:44 > 0:28:46and non-statutory services, is an inefficient way to support
0:28:46 > 0:28:54what we really need in this country.
0:28:54 > 0:28:56So, I don't agree with that gentleman up there that said
0:28:56 > 0:28:59we should privatise places such as this Dolphin Centre.
0:28:59 > 0:29:00I think it's a totally ridiculous statement.
0:29:00 > 0:29:01Rachel?
0:29:01 > 0:29:04I just wanted to go back to the original question
0:29:04 > 0:29:05and question what Claire was saying.
0:29:05 > 0:29:07Actually, councils - it is the least fair way
0:29:07 > 0:29:11of raising money for social care.
0:29:11 > 0:29:17The richest councils by definition can raise the most from council tax.
0:29:17 > 0:29:20And it's the poorest councils, it's the poorest councils that have to
0:29:20 > 0:29:23pay the most for social care because they have the fewest people who can
0:29:23 > 0:29:25afford to pay for their own care.
0:29:25 > 0:29:26So it's the imbalance.
0:29:26 > 0:29:28That's why it has to be a national system.
0:29:28 > 0:29:30Do you want to come in on this?
0:29:30 > 0:29:32The point is it is all about choices.
0:29:32 > 0:29:34And the gentleman raised the question of the
0:29:34 > 0:29:35foreign aid budget.
0:29:35 > 0:29:38We know we have a huge crisis in social care.
0:29:38 > 0:29:40And as a nation we have to make that choice
0:29:40 > 0:29:42because money doesn't grow on trees.
0:29:42 > 0:29:45We've got to make public services well funded but they've got to be
0:29:45 > 0:29:46efficiently run.
0:29:46 > 0:29:48The government has to have the courage to make
0:29:48 > 0:29:49that choice.
0:29:49 > 0:29:50You can't just print money.
0:29:50 > 0:29:53You've got no choice if you need social care.
0:29:53 > 0:29:54Correct.
0:29:54 > 0:29:57If you are homeless, you've got no choice.
0:29:57 > 0:29:59If you are terminally ill, and you need
0:29:59 > 0:30:00a carer, you've got no choice.
0:30:00 > 0:30:04If you are disabled, you have no choice.
0:30:04 > 0:30:07So all of this nonsense about you've got a choice, of course
0:30:07 > 0:30:09you haven't. Get into the real world.
0:30:09 > 0:30:10All right.
0:30:10 > 0:30:12The government has got to make a choice.
0:30:12 > 0:30:14Where does it invest the money?
0:30:14 > 0:30:17What you save in the short term ends up costing you
0:30:17 > 0:30:21more in the long-term.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24We've got many more questions that the audience in Darlington
0:30:24 > 0:30:26wants to ask, so I'm going to move on.
0:30:26 > 0:30:29I've got two or three more I'd like to
0:30:29 > 0:30:30get through.
0:30:30 > 0:30:32Let's have this one from Helene Lawson, please.
0:30:32 > 0:30:39Should Jon Venables continue to have anonymity at the taxpayers' expense?
0:30:39 > 0:30:42Jon Venables, who was this week found guilty of
0:30:42 > 0:30:44possessing child abuse images for the second time,
0:30:44 > 0:30:47jailed for three years.
0:30:47 > 0:30:49There was a question raised about whether he was
0:30:49 > 0:30:51entitled to be given anonymity.
0:30:51 > 0:30:52Rachel Sylvester, what do you think?
0:30:52 > 0:30:56This is just an awful, sickening case.
0:30:56 > 0:31:01But I worry about removing anonymity from him, because I think
0:31:01 > 0:31:04there could be a real kind of mob mentality about him.
0:31:04 > 0:31:07And I'm not sure it would actually help society
0:31:07 > 0:31:09in the end or protect anyone.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12And I think the criminal justice system,
0:31:12 > 0:31:15however evil people are, or vile, the criminal has to be fair and
0:31:15 > 0:31:20evenhanded and dispassionate.
0:31:20 > 0:31:22-- the criminal justice system.
0:31:22 > 0:31:25And there are people who aren't going to
0:31:25 > 0:31:26agree with that.
0:31:26 > 0:31:28I totally understand why James Bulger's family
0:31:28 > 0:31:29feel very passionately about this.
0:31:29 > 0:31:32But I think you can't have a criminal justice system that
0:31:32 > 0:31:33really made for victims.
0:31:33 > 0:31:36It has to be at a higher level.
0:31:36 > 0:31:41And it has to be evenhanded and fair, rather than
0:31:41 > 0:31:43vindictive or revengeful.
0:31:43 > 0:31:44Do you agree with that?
0:31:44 > 0:31:45Yes, I do.
0:31:45 > 0:31:47You do agree with that?
0:31:47 > 0:31:49Terry Christian?
0:31:49 > 0:31:52Again, I agree really with what Rachel said.
0:31:52 > 0:31:55I mean, the whole thing is very sad and sickening especially when you
0:31:55 > 0:31:57think they were so young when they committed
0:31:57 > 0:31:59that atrocious crime.
0:31:59 > 0:32:03But it's like, where do we go?
0:32:03 > 0:32:06I think it was in 1842 when we decided we'd
0:32:06 > 0:32:10no longer hang kids under the age of seven, or something like that.
0:32:10 > 0:32:12How much punishment can you give them?
0:32:12 > 0:32:14You've got to wonder what sort of upbringing
0:32:14 > 0:32:15out the way they did.
0:32:15 > 0:32:19It's scary.
0:32:19 > 0:32:21Clearly you have to treat people equally and fairly.
0:32:21 > 0:32:24You can't make special, separate cases for people just
0:32:24 > 0:32:27because you think it's ever more desperate.
0:32:27 > 0:32:30You know, we've got such a great legal system, you have to
0:32:30 > 0:32:31treat people fairly and you can't differentiate.
0:32:31 > 0:32:33What, his anonymity, which was imposed after the
0:32:33 > 0:32:38case because he was a child at the time, should remain
0:32:38 > 0:32:43all his life?
0:32:43 > 0:32:45It should just be applied the same for everybody,
0:32:45 > 0:32:46whoever you are.
0:32:46 > 0:32:47How do you you are?
0:32:47 > 0:32:49Well, I mean, we can't make different rules for different
0:32:49 > 0:32:51individuals going through the system.
0:32:51 > 0:32:53The woman at the back, what do you think?
0:32:53 > 0:32:55What I would say is I think anonymity is really
0:32:55 > 0:32:56important.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59Social media - when Shannon Matthews' mother came out
0:32:59 > 0:33:02all over the papers, all of Facebook, social
0:33:02 > 0:33:05media, of her face.
0:33:05 > 0:33:08I just think it would promote vigilantes groups, going around
0:33:08 > 0:33:11following them, it could encourage violent attacks and things
0:33:11 > 0:33:12like that.
0:33:12 > 0:33:18What he did was disgusting and you can't -
0:33:18 > 0:33:19but now continually doing disgusting things.
0:33:19 > 0:33:22But if you remove the anonymity you are just going to
0:33:22 > 0:33:23encourage vigilantes attacks.
0:33:23 > 0:33:24Does anybody disagree with the points
0:33:24 > 0:33:25that are being made?
0:33:25 > 0:33:26Who wants to speak?
0:33:26 > 0:33:30You do?
0:33:30 > 0:33:32This guy has done a terrible crime when he was young.
0:33:32 > 0:33:35And he paid for it.
0:33:35 > 0:33:37He came out and he did the same thing again.
0:33:37 > 0:33:42Not quite.
0:33:42 > 0:33:47Well, he did bad things on the Internet.
0:33:47 > 0:33:50So how do we protect ourselves from this individual?
0:33:50 > 0:33:56We are not putting him in prison long enough.
0:33:56 > 0:34:00People don't know where he is.
0:34:00 > 0:34:02He could be doing it again.
0:34:02 > 0:34:04I don't think we are safe without knowing
0:34:04 > 0:34:05exactly where he is.
0:34:05 > 0:34:13Emily Thornberry?
0:34:14 > 0:34:17I agree with you to a certain extent when you talk about us
0:34:17 > 0:34:19having a great legal system.
0:34:19 > 0:34:21But we don't have a great justice system asa whole.
0:34:21 > 0:34:24And I think there's a lot of work that we are letting go, and
0:34:24 > 0:34:28a lot of the things that we used to do better and we're
0:34:28 > 0:34:29not doing well now.
0:34:29 > 0:34:32In order to keep us safe, sir, we need to not only punish people
0:34:32 > 0:34:36and keep them out of the public sphere, but we also asked to do some
0:34:36 > 0:34:37work on rehabilitation.
0:34:37 > 0:34:39And we have to have a decent system that when
0:34:39 > 0:34:41people leave prison, that there is some attempt,
0:34:41 > 0:34:44a probation service that is there, that is a safety net,
0:34:44 > 0:34:47and will ensure people are doing the best they can to get back into
0:34:47 > 0:34:49society and to keep the right side of law.
0:34:49 > 0:34:50We have done that.
0:34:50 > 0:34:52We have given him the chance but he has
0:34:52 > 0:34:53blown it again.
0:34:53 > 0:34:54I understand that.
0:34:54 > 0:35:00But there is a real problem in terms of protecting our
0:35:00 > 0:35:02society, about making sure that people are rehabilitated.
0:35:02 > 0:35:05If someone commits a crime, you can't just like everybody
0:35:05 > 0:35:06up forever.
0:35:06 > 0:35:07I'm sorry, let's get this clear.
0:35:07 > 0:35:10This is the second time he has been arrested and imprisoned
0:35:10 > 0:35:11for these offences.
0:35:11 > 0:35:14What he is saying is, is that allowed to go on
0:35:14 > 0:35:15all his life?
0:35:15 > 0:35:17That it will never be revealed who he is?
0:35:17 > 0:35:19That it will be a condition he will remain
0:35:19 > 0:35:20anonymous?
0:35:20 > 0:35:23I think, as people know, the crimes he has committed now a
0:35:23 > 0:35:26serious, but nothing is as serious as the original crime he committed
0:35:26 > 0:35:27as a child.
0:35:27 > 0:35:31And the difficulty is that if his anonymity is got rid of,
0:35:31 > 0:35:33he will be at risk of losing his life.
0:35:33 > 0:35:35OK.
0:35:35 > 0:35:38Does anybody else want to disagree with the points that have
0:35:38 > 0:35:41been made on the panel?
0:35:41 > 0:35:42You at the very back, yes?
0:35:42 > 0:35:44I personally believe, obviously the initial
0:35:44 > 0:35:46crime was horrendous.
0:35:46 > 0:35:50I still remember watching the news.
0:35:50 > 0:35:54You can imagine somebody that young actually doing something like that.
0:35:54 > 0:35:57Now you both mentioned we've got a great justice system.
0:35:57 > 0:36:05How about we set a precedent and say, right, you
0:36:07 > 0:36:09do it again, you're losing your anonymity, simple as that.
0:36:09 > 0:36:11Put the ball in his court.
0:36:11 > 0:36:13Let's see if he can actually be rehabilitated.
0:36:13 > 0:36:15I think those images are seared in everybody's
0:36:15 > 0:36:17memory, that little lad going off in Bootle.
0:36:17 > 0:36:20For me, the only positive thing, if you like, that came out of
0:36:20 > 0:36:24that was that it appeared these young men, who must of had the most
0:36:24 > 0:36:31unbearable upbringings to do those sorts of crimes,
0:36:31 > 0:36:35appear to have gone through the system and it worked.
0:36:35 > 0:36:37They had achieved a level of competence, they were able
0:36:37 > 0:36:38to function.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41And the only thing I would say is the system is actually
0:36:41 > 0:36:44working, so he is he is coming out, they obviously know where
0:36:44 > 0:36:45he is and what he is doing.
0:36:45 > 0:36:48They're finding the fact that he is consuming
0:36:48 > 0:36:50imagery and is breaching the terms of his licence
0:36:50 > 0:36:51and going back to jail.
0:36:51 > 0:36:53I'm not suggesting that isn't a cycle that
0:36:53 > 0:36:54should continue forever.
0:36:54 > 0:36:58But I don't think revealing his name does
0:36:58 > 0:37:00anything to make the chances of him doing that any less.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02The bigger problem, actually Sir, the other
0:37:02 > 0:37:04problem is how easy it is to access that
0:37:04 > 0:37:06stuff on the Internet.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09And the work that we have done over the years cross-party to
0:37:09 > 0:37:11try and tighten up this system so you can't
0:37:11 > 0:37:19of stuff is hugely helpful.
0:37:21 > 0:37:25Where is the fairness for the Bulger family that are forced to relive
0:37:25 > 0:37:26this every time this happens?
0:37:26 > 0:37:27APPLAUSE.
0:37:27 > 0:37:29So what's your answer to that?
0:37:29 > 0:37:31I don't think we should be forced to.
0:37:31 > 0:37:35I think there should be a lot more research
0:37:35 > 0:37:37while they are serving inside, to find out
0:37:37 > 0:37:41whether they are safe to be released.
0:37:41 > 0:37:46OK. Yes, the woman in the middle?
0:37:46 > 0:37:48It was two children involved in that crime.
0:37:48 > 0:37:51Robert Thompson served his time.
0:37:51 > 0:37:54Robert Thompson came out, Robert Thompson was given anonymity.
0:37:54 > 0:37:55Nobody knows where he is.
0:37:55 > 0:37:56What he is doing.
0:37:56 > 0:37:57The same with Mary Bell.
0:37:57 > 0:37:59They were given their opportunity.
0:37:59 > 0:38:01They rehabilitated and they came out.
0:38:01 > 0:38:04This other gentleman hasn't.
0:38:04 > 0:38:07And where do you draw the line in allowing him to repeated and
0:38:07 > 0:38:09repeated and repeated?
0:38:09 > 0:38:11I totally agree with the fellow at the back.
0:38:11 > 0:38:14One more chance, you've blown it, your anonymity is gone.
0:38:14 > 0:38:17Where is the protection my children or my grandchildren?
0:38:17 > 0:38:19And as that lady says, where's the justice for the
0:38:19 > 0:38:21Bulger family?
0:38:21 > 0:38:28APPLAUSE.
0:38:29 > 0:38:31Right, we're moving on to another subject.
0:38:31 > 0:38:33I have just to say to people watching this problem that
0:38:33 > 0:38:35I asked this audience whether they wanted
0:38:35 > 0:38:41discussed this week.
0:38:41 > 0:38:45And I have to say, 75% of them said they didn't want to discussed.
0:38:45 > 0:38:48And yet the biggest pile of questions we had was on this
0:38:48 > 0:38:49very subject.
0:38:49 > 0:38:52So I don't know where you are coming from.
0:38:52 > 0:38:54And I hope people at home will forgive us because this
0:38:54 > 0:38:56story moves on week by week.
0:38:56 > 0:38:57Let's have this one.
0:38:57 > 0:38:58It comes from Stuart Armstrong.
0:38:58 > 0:39:03It's very pertinent to where we are sitting here in Darlington.
0:39:03 > 0:39:06Would 16% lower economic growth in the north-east be a price
0:39:06 > 0:39:09worth paying for a hard Brexit?
0:39:09 > 0:39:12So, Richard Tice wants a hard Brexit.
0:39:12 > 0:39:13Hang on, David.
0:39:13 > 0:39:15I want a clean, proper Brexit.
0:39:15 > 0:39:16Let's be very clear.
0:39:16 > 0:39:21Whatever you want to call it.
0:39:21 > 0:39:23I don't know that a hard one or a soft one.
0:39:23 > 0:39:28You will explain.
0:39:28 > 0:39:31A report came out this week saying that growth in the
0:39:31 > 0:39:33north-east would fall by 16% if there was a hard Brexit.
0:39:33 > 0:39:35Look, the reality is about this, and of
0:39:35 > 0:39:37economic forecasts, particularly forecasts for 15 years out, you
0:39:37 > 0:39:40know, garbage in equals garbage out with these economic models.
0:39:40 > 0:39:44APPLAUSE.
0:39:44 > 0:39:48These models were produced by the same people who during the
0:39:48 > 0:39:51referendum campaign of the Treasury under the civil service, they said
0:39:51 > 0:39:54that within a year we would be in deep recession, we would lose
0:39:54 > 0:39:57500,000 jobs, the tech firms would leave, the banks would leave.
0:39:57 > 0:39:58What's...
0:39:58 > 0:40:00APPLAUSE.
0:40:00 > 0:40:04What a load of absolute rubbish.
0:40:04 > 0:40:07We've got 400,000 more people employed in this country.
0:40:07 > 0:40:09We've got record low levels of unemployment.
0:40:09 > 0:40:12We've got so much to celebrate.
0:40:12 > 0:40:15And the great thing is the opportunity is just beginning.
0:40:15 > 0:40:18And here locally, here locally near to Darlington, down
0:40:18 > 0:40:21at Teesport, there is a wonderful opportunity as long
0:40:21 > 0:40:23as we leave the Customs Union, because that is crucial.
0:40:23 > 0:40:26We can then have a free port.
0:40:26 > 0:40:28And free ports generate thousands and thousands of
0:40:28 > 0:40:30manufacturing jobs.
0:40:30 > 0:40:33As your local Richmond MP recently proved.
0:40:33 > 0:40:35And that is a wonderful opportunity.
0:40:35 > 0:40:38We need to rebalance the economy towards more money for actual jobs
0:40:38 > 0:40:39in less well-off areas.
0:40:39 > 0:40:46APPLAUSE.
0:40:46 > 0:40:49So you dispute the facts, but it did lead to a 16% drop
0:40:49 > 0:40:51in the growth in this part of the country,
0:40:51 > 0:40:54would it be worth it?
0:40:54 > 0:41:00-- if it led to a 16% drop, would it be worth it?
0:41:00 > 0:41:01That was the question.
0:41:01 > 0:41:02That was the question.
0:41:02 > 0:41:04You are a great believer in leaving.
0:41:04 > 0:41:05It is completely hypothetical.
0:41:05 > 0:41:06We all know...
0:41:06 > 0:41:08These people, they can't even forecast one year in advance,
0:41:08 > 0:41:10let alone 15.
0:41:10 > 0:41:13To be honest with you, the minute you say anything is gone
0:41:13 > 0:41:17to be bad, Brexiteers always say, that's rubbish!
0:41:17 > 0:41:19Look, you've exaggerated how bad it is going to be.
0:41:19 > 0:41:21The reality is...
0:41:21 > 0:41:24We've been proved right.
0:41:24 > 0:41:29Listen, I saw you in 2015 say, Brexit, leaving the EU is simple.
0:41:29 > 0:41:33Everything is simple when you are a bit simple.
0:41:33 > 0:41:38The reality is a 16% drop over here is gone to cost
0:41:38 > 0:41:42you something ridiculous like one in six jobs.
0:41:42 > 0:41:45The actual great recession of the 1930s was a 15% drop.
0:41:45 > 0:41:47AUDIENCE: Rubbish!
0:41:47 > 0:41:48You are saying rubbish.
0:41:48 > 0:41:51Good luck with that one.
0:41:51 > 0:41:54Come and tell me how you are getting on in a
0:41:54 > 0:41:55few years' time, or 16 months' time.
0:41:55 > 0:42:02Because you seem to be very, very hopeful.
0:42:02 > 0:42:04I don't see any upside to it.
0:42:04 > 0:42:06So far the pound has tanked by 15%.
0:42:06 > 0:42:08Is that a good sign that things are getting better?
0:42:08 > 0:42:10We've got the lowest growth in the EU.
0:42:10 > 0:42:12You come and join the celebration when we have got
0:42:12 > 0:42:14more manufacturing jobs in the north-east, we've got
0:42:14 > 0:42:16a free ports, we have rebalanced the economy.
0:42:16 > 0:42:17Based on what?
0:42:17 > 0:42:22Based on what findings?
0:42:22 > 0:42:25Is that based on the Economist?
0:42:25 > 0:42:27The one who said there was a minimum wage.
0:42:27 > 0:42:28It's getting boring!
0:42:28 > 0:42:29Boring!
0:42:29 > 0:42:30Boring!
0:42:30 > 0:42:31I can see why people...
0:42:31 > 0:42:33If we are going to have arguments conducted like this,
0:42:33 > 0:42:36I can see why people get bored with the argument.
0:42:36 > 0:42:38He needs to give his head a wobble.
0:42:38 > 0:42:39Claire Perry?
0:42:39 > 0:42:41You famously said that some of your MPs
0:42:41 > 0:42:42were representing...
0:42:42 > 0:42:43No. I did not.
0:42:43 > 0:42:44What did you not say?
0:42:44 > 0:42:46I do hate the way BBC likes to do this.
0:42:46 > 0:42:48By the way, these men shouting at each
0:42:48 > 0:42:51other, it is a bit like Parliament.
0:42:51 > 0:42:54Tell me what you did not say.
0:42:54 > 0:42:55Let's answer the question.
0:42:55 > 0:42:56Can I answer the question?
0:42:56 > 0:42:59Tell me what you didn't say.
0:42:59 > 0:43:03What I said, what I didn't say was that anyone who voted
0:43:03 > 0:43:06Brexit was in any way to have their views discounted,
0:43:06 > 0:43:08because we went through the biggest democratic exercise this
0:43:08 > 0:43:11country has ever seen.
0:43:11 > 0:43:14Emily and I were on one side of the debate, probably with you,
0:43:14 > 0:43:15Terry, Richard was on the other.
0:43:15 > 0:43:16And you know what?
0:43:16 > 0:43:19We said we'd respect the result of the referendum.
0:43:19 > 0:43:21We said we would deliver what the people wanted
0:43:21 > 0:43:22and the people voted for Brexit.
0:43:22 > 0:43:24Hang on, but on my ballot paper...
0:43:24 > 0:43:25Shut up, Terry!
0:43:25 > 0:43:26Shut up, Terry.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29On my ballot paper it didn't say anything about leaving the single
0:43:29 > 0:43:30market.
0:43:30 > 0:43:31It's just like Parliament, ladies.
0:43:31 > 0:43:36The blokes trying to shout the ladies down.
0:43:36 > 0:43:38No, I'm telling you what wasn't on my ballot paper.
0:43:38 > 0:43:40My ballot paper was Leave or Remain.
0:43:40 > 0:43:41Terry, Terry, please.
0:43:41 > 0:43:42Wait a second, Claire.
0:43:42 > 0:43:43Terry, please.
0:43:43 > 0:43:47Let Claire speak, will you?
0:43:47 > 0:43:48Thank you.
0:43:48 > 0:43:51So, to go to the question, this question of is it worth it?
0:43:51 > 0:43:54I don't recognise those numbers because they related to the sort
0:43:54 > 0:43:55of off-the-shelf deals that are out there.
0:43:55 > 0:43:56Please, Terry!
0:43:56 > 0:43:57Please don't interrupt her.
0:43:57 > 0:43:59Let her have her say.
0:43:59 > 0:44:00It's like my 15-year-old, Terry.
0:44:00 > 0:44:01I'm just helping her.
0:44:01 > 0:44:02No, you're not helping at all.
0:44:02 > 0:44:03You're being really rude, actually.
0:44:03 > 0:44:04I have to say.
0:44:04 > 0:44:06No, I'm just helping her.
0:44:06 > 0:44:08APPLAUSE.
0:44:08 > 0:44:13OK.
0:44:13 > 0:44:16Whenever you go through a divorce, you set off with a set
0:44:16 > 0:44:17of negotiation objectives.
0:44:17 > 0:44:22And then you negotiate.
0:44:22 > 0:44:25I think it's right, actually, we have the best civil service
0:44:25 > 0:44:28in the world I think it's right we look at the numbers,
0:44:28 > 0:44:30we understand where we don't want to go, which is to reduce
0:44:30 > 0:44:37the growth in the economy.
0:44:37 > 0:44:40Can I just say, for the north-east, those numbers don't include
0:44:40 > 0:44:41a couple of things.
0:44:41 > 0:44:43They don't include the Sirius project that will add 20%
0:44:43 > 0:44:44to the Teesside economy.
0:44:44 > 0:44:47They don't include the regeneration potential from that amazing SSI site
0:44:47 > 0:44:49that companies are queueing up to invest in.
0:44:49 > 0:44:50So, this is a worst-case scenario.
0:44:50 > 0:44:53Frankly, and I say this as a Remainer, because we have
0:44:53 > 0:44:55to accept the result, we can work together.
0:44:55 > 0:44:58It's the time for the country to put aside all this shouting over
0:44:58 > 0:45:00the referendum and work together on this historic task,
0:45:00 > 0:45:03which we know we can do and we can deliver a better place and better
0:45:03 > 0:45:05growth and a global Brexit.
0:45:05 > 0:45:06Why, in that case, do you accuse...
0:45:06 > 0:45:10APPLAUSE.
0:45:10 > 0:45:14Why, in that case, do you accuse some of your colleagues
0:45:14 > 0:45:14on the backbenches...
0:45:14 > 0:45:15I did not do this.
0:45:15 > 0:45:17I haven't said it yet!
0:45:17 > 0:45:18I know what your going to say.
0:45:18 > 0:45:19What?
0:45:19 > 0:45:20You're going to say...
0:45:20 > 0:45:21Swivel-eyed?
0:45:21 > 0:45:22No.
0:45:22 > 0:45:24They are representing swivel-eyed constituents, you said.
0:45:24 > 0:45:27No, I said in a private group, one of the problems with social
0:45:27 > 0:45:30media is that things leak, that's a lesson for all of us,
0:45:33 > 0:45:36what I said is I hate extremism in any form.
0:45:36 > 0:45:37And people who are shouting about my colleagues,
0:45:37 > 0:45:40all of whom swear an oath of allegiance to the Queen
0:45:40 > 0:45:42and calling them quislings and traitors for expressing
0:45:42 > 0:45:44their views in Parliament, I think that language is disgraceful.
0:45:44 > 0:45:48And I think the people that say that, and they are not people
0:45:48 > 0:45:50who chose to vote to leave the EU these are extremist voices,
0:45:50 > 0:45:52and there are too many extremist voices, frankly,
0:45:52 > 0:45:54on both sides of the debate.
0:45:54 > 0:45:55Frankly, often, gentlemen, shouting really loudly.
0:45:55 > 0:45:56I'm not being extremist!
0:45:56 > 0:45:57Rachel, hang on...
0:45:57 > 0:45:59Can I just say something?
0:45:59 > 0:46:00No, you can't.
0:46:00 > 0:46:01Rachel first.
0:46:01 > 0:46:02Sit quiet and wait.
0:46:02 > 0:46:03Rachel is first.
0:46:03 > 0:46:04I'll come back to you.
0:46:04 > 0:46:06The new model that is going to be manufactured...
0:46:06 > 0:46:08And women can sometimes talk over, too.
0:46:08 > 0:46:09Rachel Sylvester, please.
0:46:09 > 0:46:12I think this question goes to the heart of why the Government
0:46:12 > 0:46:13is in such a bind over Brexit.
0:46:13 > 0:46:16I spoke to a minister recently who said I've got to choose
0:46:16 > 0:46:18between what I think is in the national interest
0:46:18 > 0:46:19and the party interest.
0:46:19 > 0:46:21That's not true.
0:46:21 > 0:46:23And I think Theresa May, in her heart of hearts,
0:46:23 > 0:46:26is unsure whether she is doing the right thing in pursuing is quite
0:46:26 > 0:46:29hard version of Brexit that some in the Tory party
0:46:29 > 0:46:30are encouraging her to.
0:46:30 > 0:46:32And I think this goes to a wider problem that this has got some stuff
0:46:38 > 0:46:40And I think this goes to a wider problem that this
0:46:40 > 0:46:41has got so messed up
0:46:41 > 0:46:43with party politics, the politicians are putting
0:46:43 > 0:46:45their parties, and thinking about their parties,
0:46:45 > 0:46:46rather than the voters.
0:46:46 > 0:46:48Meanwhile, a lot of the reasons that people voted for Brexit,
0:46:48 > 0:46:50they actually aren't all economic reasons.
0:46:50 > 0:46:52They are reasons like public services, things like the housing
0:46:52 > 0:46:54crisis, issues that aren't being dealt with.
0:46:54 > 0:46:57And they are all being brushed under the carpet and ignored.
0:46:57 > 0:47:00And I think there is a real danger that Brexit sort of becomes party
0:47:00 > 0:47:02political squabble and the real problems in the country
0:47:02 > 0:47:03are not being dealt with.
0:47:03 > 0:47:05OK, the man in the blue shirt?
0:47:05 > 0:47:06APPLAUSE.
0:47:06 > 0:47:08When...
0:47:08 > 0:47:11But Brexit is what the people want.
0:47:11 > 0:47:12Which people?
0:47:12 > 0:47:13When you analyse the figures...
0:47:13 > 0:47:16The people who voted...
0:47:16 > 0:47:19Hang on, the man in the blue shirt, are we hearing from you?
0:47:19 > 0:47:21With the beard?
0:47:21 > 0:47:23It is your turn to speak, not Terry's.
0:47:23 > 0:47:26Thank you.
0:47:26 > 0:47:29When will the hardline Remainers on the political and media elite
0:47:29 > 0:47:32of this country start to have some faith in this country's ability
0:47:32 > 0:47:33to perform on the world stage?
0:47:33 > 0:47:40People like Terry.
0:47:40 > 0:47:41What, the media elite!?
0:47:41 > 0:47:43You mean like Boris...
0:47:43 > 0:47:47Unlike those rebels like Boris Johnson?
0:47:47 > 0:47:51Let's hear one person at a time, and not always you.
0:47:51 > 0:47:55From the media, from the left side of society, shouting over people.
0:47:55 > 0:47:56Like him shouting about Brexit?
0:47:56 > 0:48:00It's just arrogant.
0:48:00 > 0:48:02They have no faith in this country's ability to perform.
0:48:02 > 0:48:05It is one of the world's most powerful, strong, economically...
0:48:05 > 0:48:06Have some faith.
0:48:06 > 0:48:07Emily Thornberry?
0:48:07 > 0:48:10The pound has tanked.
0:48:14 > 0:48:17We are 21 months on from the referendum.
0:48:17 > 0:48:20And we are not having a debate on a level
0:48:20 > 0:48:27that we really need to have.
0:48:27 > 0:48:30I think it is really unfortunate that, on the one hand,
0:48:30 > 0:48:32we have people accusing other citizens of being swivel-eyed
0:48:32 > 0:48:34loons, or racists.
0:48:34 > 0:48:36On the other side of the debate, there are people saying
0:48:36 > 0:48:39the other side are traitors.
0:48:39 > 0:48:43Listen, we are in this together, we are going to leave.
0:48:43 > 0:48:47We only have about eight months now to start making a decision about how
0:48:47 > 0:48:51it is we are going to leave and what it is we are going to do.
0:48:51 > 0:48:54And I have to say, I find it profoundly worrying
0:48:54 > 0:48:57that the Cabinet, who are the ones who are going to have
0:48:57 > 0:49:00to make the decisions about how we are negotiating,
0:49:00 > 0:49:02are only now starting to have a discussion
0:49:02 > 0:49:06about whether or not we should be in the customs union.
0:49:06 > 0:49:08I mean, for heaven's sake, this is the future of our country.
0:49:08 > 0:49:11I tell you what, guys, I would like to speak
0:49:11 > 0:49:13without you interrupting.
0:49:13 > 0:49:19It's about the future of our country and the future of our children.
0:49:19 > 0:49:22And it does seem to me that we have to come to a deal that
0:49:22 > 0:49:25will work for all the regions and all the nations of our country.
0:49:25 > 0:49:28And this is why we need to come together and stop
0:49:28 > 0:49:30shouting at each other.
0:49:30 > 0:49:31All right.
0:49:31 > 0:49:34APPLAUSE.
0:49:34 > 0:49:38Let's try to finish this discussion without shouting.
0:49:38 > 0:49:40The woman there, the person in spectacles?
0:49:40 > 0:49:41Man or a woman?
0:49:41 > 0:49:44Yes, you.
0:49:44 > 0:49:47I totally agree, I think the problem with politics at the moment
0:49:47 > 0:49:49is there is too much politics.
0:49:49 > 0:49:52There is too much ranting at each other about Brexit,
0:49:52 > 0:49:55about the consequences of the election as well.
0:49:55 > 0:50:01I recently set up a petition about having a government of shared unity.
0:50:01 > 0:50:04And that is an idea of actually having party leaders coming
0:50:04 > 0:50:08together as a union.
0:50:08 > 0:50:11So, not actually having the role of a Prime Minister and sorting
0:50:11 > 0:50:12stuff out like Brexit.
0:50:12 > 0:50:14Because Brexit, people don't really understand what it has
0:50:14 > 0:50:17meant for the country.
0:50:17 > 0:50:20And I think Brexit is actually England, well,
0:50:20 > 0:50:23Great Britain, deciding to...
0:50:23 > 0:50:28Like...
0:50:28 > 0:50:31Have their own decisions about their own country.
0:50:31 > 0:50:34How it runs.
0:50:34 > 0:50:38And it's not we hate foreigners, it's we just want to make our own
0:50:38 > 0:50:44decision of certain aspects to benefit the country we live in.
0:50:44 > 0:50:47So what would be the first decision you make when we've left the EU?
0:50:47 > 0:50:52What is the EU stopping us from deciding?
0:50:52 > 0:50:53Every country...
0:50:53 > 0:50:56Is individual.
0:50:56 > 0:51:00Germany trade with China, we can trade with who we want.
0:51:00 > 0:51:03That's a lie.
0:51:03 > 0:51:07Sorry, I cannot believe a word you're saying.
0:51:07 > 0:51:09Well, I'm telling you, it's a lie.
0:51:09 > 0:51:12We can trade with who we like.
0:51:12 > 0:51:15If we've got a majority, 52 to 48, and we all agree that
0:51:15 > 0:51:17it's going to happen, and we all agree were
0:51:17 > 0:51:21going to leave the EU, and were going to leave the customs
0:51:21 > 0:51:23union, then forget hard, forget soft, right,
0:51:23 > 0:51:26we are the fifth-stroke-sixth largest trading nation in the world.
0:51:26 > 0:51:28Sixth or seventh.
0:51:28 > 0:51:31You're telling me Europe doesn't want to trade with us?
0:51:31 > 0:51:32Get out of it.
0:51:32 > 0:51:40We need to be resolute and stand together.
0:51:41 > 0:51:43It a very basic question for me.
0:51:43 > 0:51:45I said that none of you wanted to talk about Brexit.
0:51:45 > 0:51:4875% of you didn't want to talk about Brexit.
0:51:48 > 0:51:49A very basic question for me.
0:51:49 > 0:51:52How do we become wealthier by leaving the richest
0:51:52 > 0:51:53trading bloc in the world?
0:51:53 > 0:51:54Terry!
0:51:54 > 0:51:55Thank you very much.
0:51:55 > 0:51:56Have a biscuit, calm down, dear.
0:51:56 > 0:51:58This is a question from Rachel Wearmouth.
0:51:58 > 0:51:59Let's have your question.
0:51:59 > 0:52:01The last five minutes of the programme.
0:52:01 > 0:52:04100 years on, what still needs to be done to encourage more women
0:52:04 > 0:52:05to go into politics?
0:52:05 > 0:52:06Thank you for a great question.
0:52:06 > 0:52:08Who would like to start on it?
0:52:08 > 0:52:10Rachel, you start on this one.
0:52:10 > 0:52:12I think the tone of politics is actually one
0:52:12 > 0:52:14of the most important things.
0:52:14 > 0:52:18I've been covering politics now for about 20 years.
0:52:18 > 0:52:21And the number of women has gone up hugely in the House of Commons,
0:52:21 > 0:52:23and it's changed a lot.
0:52:23 > 0:52:27But all the talk about sexual harassment or whatever,
0:52:27 > 0:52:30the thing that really puts people off is seeing men shouting at each
0:52:30 > 0:52:31other across the dispatch box.
0:52:31 > 0:52:33And also, the...
0:52:33 > 0:52:36And also the really nasty, vile stuff that particularly
0:52:36 > 0:52:43women MPs get on Twitter.
0:52:43 > 0:52:46I'm sure both Claire and Emily have had this.
0:52:46 > 0:52:49There are death threats, I know women MPs who have had to put
0:52:49 > 0:52:51seven locks on the doors because they are so
0:52:51 > 0:52:52frightened at night.
0:52:52 > 0:52:54Both within parties, actually, and from outside parties,
0:52:54 > 0:52:57and I think the party leaders have to be much stronger about that.
0:52:57 > 0:53:00And it's the tone and the nature of the political debate
0:53:00 > 0:53:02that has got to change.
0:53:02 > 0:53:04APPLAUSE.
0:53:04 > 0:53:08Emily Thornberry?
0:53:08 > 0:53:11I think it really helps having more women in Parliament.
0:53:11 > 0:53:14And I think that young girls looking at Parliament can see
0:53:14 > 0:53:17that there is more women around.
0:53:17 > 0:53:18And I hear what you say.
0:53:18 > 0:53:20It is tough.
0:53:20 > 0:53:21But I'm not a victim.
0:53:21 > 0:53:27I'm doing the best job in the world.
0:53:27 > 0:53:29I'm doing the best job in the world.
0:53:29 > 0:53:35And any 15-year-old girl watching television tonight,
0:53:35 > 0:53:38you want to be involved in power, if you want to be involved
0:53:38 > 0:53:40in making decisions, it seems to me there
0:53:40 > 0:53:42are lots of things that have been politically neglected.
0:53:42 > 0:53:44And areas that are quite often things that women
0:53:44 > 0:53:45feel strongly about.
0:53:45 > 0:53:47We've talked about the NHS, we've talked about social care.
0:53:47 > 0:53:48We've talked about childbirth.
0:53:48 > 0:53:51There are lots of things that, actually, I think are neglected
0:53:51 > 0:53:53and probably will be talked about much more if more
0:53:53 > 0:53:56women were involved.
0:53:56 > 0:53:58But, anyway, even parking that, there is everything else.
0:53:58 > 0:54:02There's everything else.
0:54:02 > 0:54:05And we have as good and as strong a say as anyone else and we need
0:54:05 > 0:54:07to get more women involved.
0:54:07 > 0:54:10And yes, the more women we get, the more that women will think
0:54:10 > 0:54:11this is a job for me.
0:54:11 > 0:54:13I can do this job as well.
0:54:13 > 0:54:15In the end, you don't need any political qualifications,
0:54:15 > 0:54:18you don't need to go to university and get a degree, being
0:54:18 > 0:54:19an MP, or anything else.
0:54:19 > 0:54:23You just need to be a good, strong, voice for your community and be
0:54:23 > 0:54:25proud, and speak out, be brave and be bold,
0:54:25 > 0:54:28and it's a job for girls.
0:54:33 > 0:54:34APPLAUSE
0:54:34 > 0:54:36There is an arm up there, and I can't see
0:54:36 > 0:54:38who it is attached to.
0:54:38 > 0:54:39But, anyway, with the long-sleeve.
0:54:39 > 0:54:41Yes, that person, yes.
0:54:41 > 0:54:44It's you.
0:54:44 > 0:54:46I think the main thing is that politics needs to appeal
0:54:46 > 0:54:48to younger people more.
0:54:48 > 0:54:51Because that will be the next generation of MPs and people
0:54:51 > 0:54:52who work in Westminster.
0:54:52 > 0:54:55A lot of my friends, when I talk about it,
0:54:55 > 0:54:56they will say, well, politics doesn't affect me,
0:54:56 > 0:55:01it doesn't interest me.
0:55:01 > 0:55:04Actually, when you start to look into it you think, well,
0:55:04 > 0:55:05actually, it does affect me.
0:55:05 > 0:55:08And that is when you become more interested.
0:55:08 > 0:55:11I think as well, to them, they will think, actually,
0:55:11 > 0:55:12I do want to go into that.
0:55:12 > 0:55:15Rather than saying, oh, women, come and join us,
0:55:15 > 0:55:17you need to say, actually, politics as a whole, come
0:55:17 > 0:55:19and have a lot of interest in us.
0:55:19 > 0:55:22And that is when more people will join, and more women.
0:55:22 > 0:55:23Claire Perry?
0:55:23 > 0:55:24I completely agree with Emily.
0:55:24 > 0:55:27I have to say, the more women get in, the more the tone changes.
0:55:27 > 0:55:31This is what happens all the time.
0:55:31 > 0:55:34Lots of people shouting about the theory of things, and,
0:55:34 > 0:55:36actually, women in general, cross-party, work together
0:55:36 > 0:55:39to get things done.
0:55:39 > 0:55:42Actually, the essence of being an MP is standing up for a constituency
0:55:42 > 0:55:45that you love and is trying to help people in it.
0:55:45 > 0:55:47And that's the stuff you don't write press releases about.
0:55:47 > 0:55:48You just do it.
0:55:48 > 0:55:51And I think women, frankly, do that, as well as men, very well.
0:55:51 > 0:55:53But I would change one thing radically.
0:55:53 > 0:55:55We are about to embark, at some point, on restoring
0:55:55 > 0:55:58the Palace of Westminster, which is the cradle of democracy.
0:55:58 > 0:56:00It's beautiful, but they want to do it at the minimum amount
0:56:00 > 0:56:02of costs to taxpayers.
0:56:02 > 0:56:06Why don't we have a chamber that isn't based on how far men used
0:56:06 > 0:56:08to have to stand not to kill each other with swords,
0:56:08 > 0:56:11which is where the measurement of the chamber came from?
0:56:11 > 0:56:14Why can't we have a more consensual setup that doesn't encourage people
0:56:14 > 0:56:16to yell at each other across the dispatch box?
0:56:16 > 0:56:17That would definitely help.
0:56:17 > 0:56:19Richard Tice?
0:56:20 > 0:56:22Emily was 110% right.
0:56:22 > 0:56:25It is fantastic.
0:56:25 > 0:56:28I was interested, what attracts you is just power.
0:56:28 > 0:56:30Yes!
0:56:30 > 0:56:33Hopefully, what attracts politicians is making a difference, improving...
0:56:33 > 0:56:35But you can't make a difference without power,
0:56:35 > 0:56:36that's the whole point!
0:56:36 > 0:56:38That's the whole point.
0:56:38 > 0:56:40Politics is about power and when you close your eyes,
0:56:40 > 0:56:45who you are thinking about.
0:56:45 > 0:56:46And how you're making those decisions.
0:56:46 > 0:56:49Could you not shout at me so I can speak?
0:56:49 > 0:56:52I'm just telling you.
0:56:52 > 0:56:54I am quite passionate about this.
0:56:54 > 0:56:56A brief last word, and then Terry?
0:56:56 > 0:56:59To encourage more people into politics, we have got to do
0:56:59 > 0:57:00something about the abuse on social media.
0:57:00 > 0:57:03When we go home tonight, it will be absolutely horrendous out
0:57:03 > 0:57:03there in terms of the trolling.
0:57:06 > 0:57:09Terry?
0:57:09 > 0:57:12It's strange, because we think we are over it in this country,
0:57:12 > 0:57:14you know, the sexism in politics.
0:57:14 > 0:57:17Yet what is very telling, and this week it is the 100th
0:57:17 > 0:57:18anniversary of women, you know, fighting...
0:57:18 > 0:57:19Some women.
0:57:19 > 0:57:23Women fighting to get the vote, some women, yes, 100 years ago.
0:57:23 > 0:57:25But I've heard the phrase given the vote.
0:57:25 > 0:57:32They were not given the vote, they fought for the vote.
0:57:32 > 0:57:35You know, there is still a long way to go.
0:57:35 > 0:57:37OK, we are on our second female Prime Minister.
0:57:37 > 0:57:38Well, yeah, good!
0:57:38 > 0:57:41To me, I think we would let the Downing Street cat do a better
0:57:41 > 0:57:43job, but it's great that she's got there.
0:57:43 > 0:57:46But the reality is, if you look around the world,
0:57:46 > 0:57:48there is still a long way for women to go.
0:57:48 > 0:57:51I was quite moved by those women in Iran, doing the hijab protest.
0:57:51 > 0:57:54You know, that, to me, is something that we should applaud.
0:57:54 > 0:57:57That is a sign of how far women have got to go in politics,
0:57:57 > 0:58:00not just in this country, but all around the world.
0:58:00 > 0:58:01OK, we have to stop.
0:58:01 > 0:58:03Thank you very much.
0:58:05 > 0:58:09APPLAUSE
0:58:14 > 0:58:16Next Thursday we are going to be in
0:58:16 > 0:58:18the Fleet Air Arm Museum At Yeovil.
0:58:18 > 0:58:22And the week after that we are going to be at the JCB plant in Uttoxeter.
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0:58:28 > 0:58:32If you want to have your say on the many things that have
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0:58:34 > 0:58:38Time on BBC 5 Live now and also you can watch it on the iPlayer.
0:58:38 > 0:58:44My thanks to our panel and to all of you who came
0:58:44 > 0:58:46to Darlington to take part in this edition of Question Time.
0:58:46 > 0:58:48Until next Thursday, Good night.
0:58:48 > 0:58:51APPLAUSE.