0:00:06 > 0:00:14Tonight, we are in Yeovil and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:17 > 0:00:19And we are actually not precisely in Yeovil.
0:00:19 > 0:00:22We are in the Fleet Air Arm Museum at Yeovilton,
0:00:22 > 0:00:24which is just outside Yeovil.
0:00:24 > 0:00:26On our panel tonight, the former Secretary of State
0:00:26 > 0:00:28for Northern Ireland, who was a member of
0:00:28 > 0:00:30the European Parliament, then voted for Brexit,
0:00:30 > 0:00:34and is a Conservative MP, Theresa Villiers.
0:00:34 > 0:00:36David Lammy, Labour MP for the same London constituency for 18 years,
0:00:36 > 0:00:42a minister in both Blair and the Brown governments.
0:00:42 > 0:00:45The managing director of the frozen food company Iceland,
0:00:45 > 0:00:49which currently recently became the first big retailer in Britain
0:00:49 > 0:00:52to pledge to get rid of plastic packaging within five years,
0:00:52 > 0:00:54Richard Walker.
0:00:54 > 0:00:57And the economist, writer, campaigner, who used to work
0:00:57 > 0:01:00for the charity Save the Children, Faiza Shaheen.
0:01:00 > 0:01:04And the former Sunday Times journalist who became
0:01:04 > 0:01:07David Cameron's head of policy, now in the House of Lords,
0:01:07 > 0:01:10Camilla Cavendish.
0:01:23 > 0:01:24Thank you very much.
0:01:24 > 0:01:29And remember, as always, from home you can argue these issues
0:01:29 > 0:01:33using #BBCQT on Twitter and on Facebook.
0:01:33 > 0:01:39Let's have our first question, which comes from Victoria McGregor.
0:01:39 > 0:01:45Would you still make a donation to Oxfam?
0:01:45 > 0:01:48David Lammy.
0:01:48 > 0:01:49Yes.
0:01:49 > 0:01:50Just about.
0:01:50 > 0:01:57And that's because there is so much to do across the world,
0:01:57 > 0:02:03and Oxfam and a number of aid agencies have been leading the way.
0:02:03 > 0:02:08There are 130 million young girls across the world
0:02:08 > 0:02:12who are not being educated.
0:02:12 > 0:02:16In our own country, we are pledged to get 11 million of those young
0:02:16 > 0:02:22girls educated by 2020.
0:02:22 > 0:02:25I think of Ebola, and diseases across the world like malaria,
0:02:25 > 0:02:27which we could overcome, and the wonderful work that
0:02:27 > 0:02:31taxpayers in this country have contributed to.
0:02:31 > 0:02:35So I know that there is a debate about getting rid of aid entirely.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37It's not one I agree with.
0:02:37 > 0:02:42Having said that, this is a moment for the aid agencies to step up
0:02:42 > 0:02:44and understand why the public are so upset.
0:02:44 > 0:02:47The old-fashioned idea, it seems to me, of someone
0:02:47 > 0:02:51flying in from Holland, on this occasion, to Haiti,
0:02:51 > 0:02:56gap year kids, working and doing good to the poor,
0:02:56 > 0:02:57has got to end.
0:02:57 > 0:03:01I've been critical of the way in which Africa and development aid
0:03:01 > 0:03:04is sometimes portrayed as if immigrants from those
0:03:04 > 0:03:06countries don't give three times more, actually,
0:03:06 > 0:03:11sent back in remittances, than the aid agencies or taxpayers.
0:03:11 > 0:03:14So there's a lot that's got to change and this is a moment
0:03:14 > 0:03:15in which I hope that happens.
0:03:15 > 0:03:20But I'd also say this one point, that in the end we, in this country
0:03:20 > 0:03:24and other Western countries, also have to remember the role
0:03:24 > 0:03:30we played in the carve up of the African continent,
0:03:30 > 0:03:34the Indian continent, our imperious and colonialist past,
0:03:34 > 0:03:38that means whilst we need reform in aid it would be absolutely
0:03:38 > 0:03:42objectionable for this country to withdraw from its international
0:03:42 > 0:03:44obligations to the very poorest in the world.
0:03:44 > 0:03:52APPLAUSE
0:03:52 > 0:03:56Of course, the question arises from the 2011 cover-up,
0:03:56 > 0:04:02as Oxfam was accused of their staff in Haiti using prostitutes.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05Faiza Shaheen, what do you think?
0:04:05 > 0:04:10What we've heard over the last week is incredibly disappointing.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12I hear it when people say that "I'm not sure
0:04:12 > 0:04:15"if I could give money any more".
0:04:15 > 0:04:17The thing is of course...
0:04:17 > 0:04:19And it's absolutely right that those in senior positions
0:04:19 > 0:04:22and those involved should consider their positions.
0:04:22 > 0:04:27But the big thing is that despicable people cannot stop good people
0:04:27 > 0:04:31from doing good work, and doing good deeds.
0:04:31 > 0:04:32This is humanitarian work.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35We are humans.
0:04:35 > 0:04:38We need to retain that, we need to fight for that.
0:04:38 > 0:04:44I totally agree that the development agencies need to do a lot more.
0:04:44 > 0:04:46For the last few months we have heard a lot
0:04:46 > 0:04:48about the abuse of power.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51We've heard about it in Hollywood, we've heard about it in Parliament
0:04:51 > 0:04:54and we've heard about it in sports.
0:04:54 > 0:05:00And this is just another place where that societal problem is clear,
0:05:00 > 0:05:06that when you give people too much power, they can abuse that.
0:05:06 > 0:05:08Not always, of course, but they can abuse that.
0:05:08 > 0:05:12So we need to do a lot more on the safeguards and we need to do
0:05:12 > 0:05:16a lot more to make sure that some of what happened in terms of not
0:05:16 > 0:05:20being known that this guy managed to get another job afterwards,
0:05:20 > 0:05:22that that can't happen again.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25And that's the sort of thing we need to make sure they do now.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28So what I would say to you is if Oxfam and other
0:05:28 > 0:05:30development agencies can't show that they are making that
0:05:30 > 0:05:34difference, that they are shifting their funds and shifting the way
0:05:34 > 0:05:36that they are doing things, then that's the point
0:05:36 > 0:05:39at which you say, "OK, they haven't changed their ways".
0:05:39 > 0:05:42Can I just put to you a quotation from the Oxfam staff training manual
0:05:42 > 0:05:45and ask you whether you think this is a proper or adequate
0:05:45 > 0:05:46answer to this?
0:05:46 > 0:05:50It was written in 2006 and it says, "We haven't banned
0:05:50 > 0:05:53"the use of prostitutes but we strongly discourage it".
0:05:53 > 0:05:55Is that enough?
0:05:55 > 0:05:56No.
0:05:56 > 0:05:58I don't think that's enough.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00What do you think they should be saying?
0:06:00 > 0:06:03Well, look, it just shouldn't have happened, they shouldn't
0:06:03 > 0:06:04be using prostitutes.
0:06:04 > 0:06:09Look, I worked for Save the Children for just 18 months and the issues
0:06:09 > 0:06:14that are coming out here of quite macho environments are things that
0:06:14 > 0:06:16of course are there in the sector.
0:06:16 > 0:06:18And I saw them.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20And there was a bigger issue, and I completely support
0:06:20 > 0:06:25the use of foreign aid, and we need to think about...
0:06:25 > 0:06:28I was there when the Ebola outbreak happened, and you think about people
0:06:28 > 0:06:30that go there and help people.
0:06:30 > 0:06:32They are heroes, often.
0:06:32 > 0:06:36And we often find that if we had not have made those
0:06:36 > 0:06:39interventions at that time, can you imagine what would have
0:06:39 > 0:06:40happened if that disease had spread further?
0:06:40 > 0:06:42So it's really worth that investment.
0:06:42 > 0:06:45But there's a lot of change that does need to happen
0:06:45 > 0:06:48within the development sector and this is the time to do it.
0:06:48 > 0:06:50The person in blue that had their hand up.
0:06:50 > 0:06:55I'm a charity worker myself, and whilst there is always
0:06:55 > 0:06:57going to be bad apples in any organisation and safeguarding
0:06:57 > 0:07:01is about minimising the risk, isn't this a society issue?
0:07:01 > 0:07:04Why are we starting...
0:07:04 > 0:07:07I know there's an issue with Oxfam and we can start cherrypicking,
0:07:07 > 0:07:14but this is an issue with all of our societies.
0:07:14 > 0:07:15OK, and the person with their hand up.
0:07:15 > 0:07:18Keep your hand up if you want to speak.
0:07:18 > 0:07:19Yes, you.
0:07:19 > 0:07:22I work with a couple of West Country charities that have been
0:07:22 > 0:07:24through a difficult period recently, and one of the problems
0:07:24 > 0:07:27is that the Charity Commission is a toothless regulator.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30And what Oxfam shows is that it is a toothless regulator,
0:07:30 > 0:07:34because it looked at this problem a while ago and moved away
0:07:34 > 0:07:36without finding the real issue.
0:07:36 > 0:07:39And it didn't dig to find out what was going on.
0:07:39 > 0:07:40No, and it doesn't.
0:07:40 > 0:07:41And if we're not dealing with...
0:07:41 > 0:07:44If the Charity Commission is not focused on preventing
0:07:44 > 0:07:47financing foreign terrorism, which is what the government have
0:07:47 > 0:07:49tasked it to look at, it ignores virtually everything else
0:07:49 > 0:07:52until it hits the papers.
0:07:52 > 0:07:53Richard Walker.
0:07:53 > 0:07:58I mean, look, what happened was beyond reprehensible.
0:07:58 > 0:08:01To exploit the most vulnerable in some of the most vulnerable
0:08:01 > 0:08:02areas in the world.
0:08:02 > 0:08:07And I hope it serves as a wake-up call for the sector.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10And now the spotlight is on, I'm sure more will come out.
0:08:10 > 0:08:14But from any organisation's point of view, in business
0:08:14 > 0:08:19or in the charitable sector, you need to ensure that positions
0:08:19 > 0:08:24of power are not abused, and that people who have been abused
0:08:24 > 0:08:28can be facilitated to come forward and speak up.
0:08:28 > 0:08:33So I would argue that Oxfam urgently need to step up and show leadership,
0:08:33 > 0:08:36because I'm really worried about the future of this
0:08:36 > 0:08:38amazing organisation which is being poisoned
0:08:38 > 0:08:40by a few people.
0:08:40 > 0:08:42Would you still make a donation?
0:08:42 > 0:08:43I would, yes.
0:08:43 > 0:08:48Because to not make that donation is almost to doubly
0:08:48 > 0:08:52hurt those people that need our help the most.
0:08:52 > 0:08:59APPLAUSE
0:08:59 > 0:09:01Camilla Cavendish.
0:09:01 > 0:09:04So, I don't think this is a debate, or should be a debate
0:09:04 > 0:09:05about shutting down aid.
0:09:05 > 0:09:10I think this is a debate about accountability.
0:09:10 > 0:09:11And I agree.
0:09:11 > 0:09:13We can't just single out Oxfam.
0:09:13 > 0:09:16There are clearly issues, unfortunately, emerging
0:09:16 > 0:09:17across the board.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20But the truth is that I think if I was running Oxfam,
0:09:20 > 0:09:23and I was an aid worker a long time ago and I know how chaotic
0:09:23 > 0:09:26it is and that there are great people working on the front line,
0:09:26 > 0:09:29and I know how these things, I can imagine how these
0:09:29 > 0:09:31things can go wrong.
0:09:31 > 0:09:33If I had been running Oxfam, I would have shut down
0:09:33 > 0:09:35that operation in Haiti.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38I would have fired that guy, rather than paying him off
0:09:38 > 0:09:42so he would get a job somewhere else and I would have put my hands up.
0:09:42 > 0:09:44That wouldn't have shut down the help to Haiti.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47All that would have meant was that other agencies who were already
0:09:47 > 0:09:48there would have moved in.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51But the truth is that I am very uncomfortable with a big
0:09:51 > 0:09:57organisation covering things up, passing on monstrous employees
0:09:57 > 0:09:59with appalling behaviour.
0:09:59 > 0:10:01And by the way, it's only two years ago since Oxfam and other charities
0:10:04 > 0:10:07Something has gone wrong in that organisation, I'm sorry to say.
0:10:07 > 0:10:09And I think this is a deep issue of accountability.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11I've not actually donated to Oxfam myself for years.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14I donate to Medecins Sans Frontieres and smaller charities where I feel
0:10:14 > 0:10:17I really know the money's going to the front line.
0:10:17 > 0:10:18But that's a personal decision.
0:10:18 > 0:10:20But I don't think it's OK for institutions to say that
0:10:20 > 0:10:23because their mission is to help the vulnerable they
0:10:23 > 0:10:24are not accountable.
0:10:24 > 0:10:27That, to me, is wrong and we need to do something about it.
0:10:27 > 0:10:33APPLAUSE
0:10:33 > 0:10:35The speaker at the back said the Charities Commission wasn't
0:10:35 > 0:10:38doing its job either because it didn't pick up on this and didn't
0:10:38 > 0:10:42investigate it properly and they are the watchdog.
0:10:42 > 0:10:44I think that's a very interesting issue.
0:10:44 > 0:10:46I know some of the work of the Charities Commission,
0:10:46 > 0:10:48which actually has been very effective.
0:10:48 > 0:10:50I think you were talking about terrorism and that aspect.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53Maybe they have focused on that more.
0:10:53 > 0:10:55I think regulators always have a difficult job.
0:10:55 > 0:10:57I'm sure more should be done.
0:10:57 > 0:10:58But you know what?
0:10:58 > 0:11:00Oxfam shouldn't have let this happen in the first place.
0:11:00 > 0:11:01That's kind of...
0:11:01 > 0:11:02Theresa Villiers.
0:11:02 > 0:11:08It is repellent that people who were there to help vulnerable
0:11:08 > 0:11:11people ended up exploiting them.
0:11:11 > 0:11:13So I think for the moment, if we are making a donation,
0:11:13 > 0:11:16I would prefer to give to a different aid charity than Oxfam
0:11:16 > 0:11:24until Oxfam can prove it has cleaned up its act.
0:11:25 > 0:11:28I agree with the speaker at the back who said that unfortunately people
0:11:28 > 0:11:30who abuse power are present in all sectors of society.
0:11:30 > 0:11:35The crucial thing now is for the aid sector as a whole to make sure
0:11:35 > 0:11:36they have the most robust possible safeguarding mechanisms so that
0:11:36 > 0:11:38whistle-blowers can come forward, victims can come forward,
0:11:38 > 0:11:41and so this type of abuse is detected at an early stage
0:11:41 > 0:11:45and stopped in its tracks.
0:11:45 > 0:11:48But I am convinced that we should continue, as individuals
0:11:48 > 0:11:52and as taxpayers, to donate to development aid.
0:11:52 > 0:11:55It is crucial, not only just for the moral reasons of helping
0:11:55 > 0:11:57some of the poorest and most disadvantaged in the world,
0:11:57 > 0:12:01but it is also crucial I think for our interests as a nation.
0:12:01 > 0:12:07I take as an example the fact that UK taxpayers' aid has supported
0:12:07 > 0:12:10almost 65 million people to have access to clean water
0:12:10 > 0:12:12and health care.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15Now that kind of project is essential in tackling
0:12:15 > 0:12:19antimicrobial resistance.
0:12:19 > 0:12:21And you support the 0.7% of GDP going to aid, do you?
0:12:21 > 0:12:23I do.
0:12:23 > 0:12:25Which many people criticise on the grounds that it's
0:12:25 > 0:12:27a lot of money and could be used elsewhere.
0:12:27 > 0:12:28Unequivocal support you have for it?
0:12:28 > 0:12:32I support the 0.7% target.
0:12:32 > 0:12:35It is a lot of money but there is a moral case to do this.
0:12:35 > 0:12:37But there are also very sensible, practical reasons why
0:12:37 > 0:12:39it is in the interests of the United Kingdom
0:12:39 > 0:12:40to spend this money.
0:12:40 > 0:12:43Camilla, do you agree?
0:12:43 > 0:12:46I don't support the 0.7% target.
0:12:46 > 0:12:49Not because I don't think that aid is important or because I don't
0:12:49 > 0:12:53think we have done some great things as a country, but because when you
0:12:53 > 0:12:55set a target like that and you set it in stone,
0:12:55 > 0:12:58it becomes an enormous incentive for people to spend money
0:12:58 > 0:12:59without thinking it through.
0:12:59 > 0:13:02And that's why I have never actually supported that target.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04And many years ago I started writing about Ethiopia,
0:13:04 > 0:13:07which is a huge recipient of British aid, where the government
0:13:07 > 0:13:10was using aid to silence dissidents.
0:13:10 > 0:13:13And I wrote, with the help of Human Rights Watch,
0:13:13 > 0:13:16and I couldn't get the government to talk to me and I couldn't get
0:13:16 > 0:13:19the agencies to talk to me because they had too much invested,
0:13:19 > 0:13:22and they had essentially too much vested interest
0:13:22 > 0:13:24in continuing the flow of money.
0:13:24 > 0:13:27Did you say this to David Cameron when you were working for him,
0:13:27 > 0:13:28in the policy unit?
0:13:28 > 0:13:30For many years I have said that to him.
0:13:30 > 0:13:31And he took no notice.
0:13:31 > 0:13:35He believes, I am sure he still does and he did then,
0:13:35 > 0:13:35absolutely passionately in aid.
0:13:35 > 0:13:37He believes in helping the most vulnerable.
0:13:37 > 0:13:38That is great.
0:13:38 > 0:13:41What I object to and what I worry about is when you set a target
0:13:41 > 0:13:44in stone you set create a strange set of incentives.
0:13:44 > 0:13:45You, sir.
0:13:45 > 0:13:46I run a charity.
0:13:46 > 0:13:48The Charities Commission has been given dozens
0:13:48 > 0:13:50of new powers by the government to investigate charities.
0:13:50 > 0:13:53It just isn't using them because it doesn't have the resources to do so.
0:13:53 > 0:13:55Why has it taken a national scandal for them finally
0:13:55 > 0:13:57to investigate Oxfam?
0:13:57 > 0:13:58And your answer to that is?
0:13:58 > 0:13:59They are short of resources.
0:13:59 > 0:14:01The woman there on the left.
0:14:01 > 0:14:03Andrew Mitchell was the Secretary of State when this scandal took
0:14:03 > 0:14:07place and he said that the reason he didn't know about it is because
0:14:07 > 0:14:13Oxfam described it as misconduct, and the officials at DfID
0:14:13 > 0:14:17took it no further.
0:14:17 > 0:14:19So surely there is culpability there.
0:14:19 > 0:14:21If something came through my desk
0:14:21 > 0:14:23that said "misconduct", my first question would be,
0:14:23 > 0:14:25"What kind of misconduct"?
0:14:25 > 0:14:28They didn't ask the question.
0:14:28 > 0:14:33Right, he was a minister in your party's government, what do you say?
0:14:33 > 0:14:36Oxfam should have described the type of misconduct that it was.
0:14:36 > 0:14:39But she says if you get a thing on your paper saying
0:14:39 > 0:14:40"misconduct" you investigate.
0:14:40 > 0:14:42You don't just say, "Oh, misconduct".
0:14:42 > 0:14:44Well, I mean, certainly in hindsight they should have
0:14:44 > 0:14:46asked more questions.
0:14:46 > 0:14:48But the real culpability here is with Oxfam for not
0:14:48 > 0:14:51disclosing the nature of what happened.
0:14:51 > 0:14:53Any more points for anyone, otherwise I will go
0:14:53 > 0:14:54on to the next question.
0:14:54 > 0:14:57Yes, you sir.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00Will all these people that's been caught now be blacklisted and stop
0:15:00 > 0:15:01from working within charities?
0:15:01 > 0:15:02In the future?
0:15:02 > 0:15:03David Lammy?
0:15:03 > 0:15:06God I hope so.
0:15:06 > 0:15:09I mean look, the point, I think the point is about power.
0:15:09 > 0:15:12De facto.
0:15:12 > 0:15:15If you are coming from Britain to any of these countries, you have
0:15:15 > 0:15:16considerable power.
0:15:16 > 0:15:18You land in those countries, you see the jeeps
0:15:18 > 0:15:19that people go around in.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21The salaries they get a significantly
0:15:21 > 0:15:25higher than local people.
0:15:25 > 0:15:27What we've got to do is we've got to bend
0:15:27 > 0:15:29towards the south.
0:15:29 > 0:15:31You need local workers, local community, you've got
0:15:31 > 0:15:32to lift them up.
0:15:32 > 0:15:34Far more than Westerners arriving.
0:15:34 > 0:15:39Of course they've got to be sacked.
0:15:39 > 0:15:41Let me just say, Oxfam have got to move
0:15:41 > 0:15:49rapidly to show they have heard.
0:15:50 > 0:15:53There has got to be more people looking at their positions and
0:15:53 > 0:15:54stepping aside.
0:15:54 > 0:15:57Fresh people have got to arrive, they've got to be
0:15:57 > 0:15:58southern -based, connected to the ground.
0:15:58 > 0:16:00To really demonstrate they've got it.
0:16:00 > 0:16:02And lots and lots of other agencies have to follow that
0:16:02 > 0:16:03as well.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06When taxpayers are funding Oxfam, £32 million, it does require
0:16:06 > 0:16:07greater scrutiny.
0:16:07 > 0:16:14That's why it is right that ministers are asking
0:16:14 > 0:16:17questions about what that misconduct was and the charity commission
0:16:17 > 0:16:18isn't just a toothless regulator.
0:16:18 > 0:16:19Absolutely.
0:16:19 > 0:16:21OK.
0:16:21 > 0:16:23Right, before we go onto next question...
0:16:23 > 0:16:26Question Time next Thursday comes from Uttoxeter.
0:16:26 > 0:16:32And the week after that from Blackpool.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35Details of how to get to Uttoxeter or Blackpool if you want
0:16:35 > 0:16:37to come to the programme are on the screen.
0:16:37 > 0:16:39I will as ever give them at the end.
0:16:39 > 0:16:43I'll take this question now please from Ruth Binney, please.
0:16:43 > 0:16:44If biscuits and other highly processed
0:16:44 > 0:16:47foods are damaging the nation's health, isn't it time for them to be
0:16:47 > 0:16:49taxed?
0:16:49 > 0:16:52I think this is based on a report today.
0:16:52 > 0:16:55The French government saying people who use highly
0:16:55 > 0:16:57processed foods are more likely to get cancer.
0:16:57 > 0:17:04Well, Iceland...
0:17:04 > 0:17:05Highly processed foods and biscuits.
0:17:05 > 0:17:07I picked a good week to come on.
0:17:07 > 0:17:08You did.
0:17:08 > 0:17:0975 chicken nuggets for £3.
0:17:09 > 0:17:10Actually...
0:17:10 > 0:17:14You answer the question.
0:17:14 > 0:17:17Something that has been annoying me about the press today is the chicken
0:17:17 > 0:17:19nuggets.
0:17:19 > 0:17:21It's been used as an example of an ultra-processed food.
0:17:21 > 0:17:25Our chicken nuggets are made from 100% chicken.
0:17:25 > 0:17:27Come on!
0:17:27 > 0:17:30And breadcrumbs.
0:17:30 > 0:17:33There is an important point here.
0:17:33 > 0:17:35What did you say your company was called?
0:17:35 > 0:17:38What is wrong with that other than snobbery?
0:17:38 > 0:17:40OK.
0:17:40 > 0:17:42Shall I go down the rest of the list or not?
0:17:42 > 0:17:4624 cans of Pepsi for £6.50.
0:17:46 > 0:17:4842 packets...
0:17:48 > 0:17:51I don't know why this matters because you are here to
0:17:51 > 0:17:52answer the general question.
0:17:52 > 0:17:53And you know the business well.
0:17:53 > 0:17:55Highly processed foods are damaging health.
0:17:55 > 0:18:00Is it time for them to be taxed?
0:18:00 > 0:18:04Look, I think it's ultimately, it comes down to a balanced diet.
0:18:04 > 0:18:07I recognise that retailers have a responsibility to provide
0:18:07 > 0:18:14an option of choices.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17So if you want to have a processed meal, retailers need to
0:18:17 > 0:18:19ensure that is high-quality to the best possible standards
0:18:19 > 0:18:27at the best possible price.
0:18:34 > 0:18:37If you want to do some scratch cooking and buy chicken
0:18:37 > 0:18:38and vegetables and fresh fruit,
0:18:38 > 0:18:41which you can do from our store, we're not all frozen.
0:18:41 > 0:18:42Then, you know, that's fine as well.
0:18:42 > 0:18:44I think it's incumbent on the retailers to
0:18:44 > 0:18:45give customers that choice.
0:18:45 > 0:18:48I don't think that we can really tax our way
0:18:48 > 0:18:49to solving this situation.
0:18:49 > 0:18:53But I think we can all do better.
0:18:53 > 0:18:55There are regulations that have come in
0:18:55 > 0:18:57for example, such as an sugar.
0:18:57 > 0:19:01Don't tell anyone because I'm hoping our
0:19:01 > 0:19:04customers won't notice, but we've taken out over the last year 10%
0:19:04 > 0:19:08sugar.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11Do you accept in principle highly processed foods are less good
0:19:11 > 0:19:12for you than fresh food?
0:19:12 > 0:19:17And this report by the French doctor saying
0:19:17 > 0:19:20you're more likely to get cancer, are you disturbed by that or do you
0:19:20 > 0:19:21reject that argument?
0:19:21 > 0:19:24I'm not disturbed by it and I think the
0:19:24 > 0:19:26researchers themselves have said more research needs to be done.
0:19:26 > 0:19:29Every week there is a food scare and it may be excessive alcohol
0:19:29 > 0:19:31consumption or excessive fat or excessive sugar.
0:19:31 > 0:19:34And of course if you eat one thing always it will be
0:19:34 > 0:19:35bad for you.
0:19:35 > 0:19:37The fundamental point here is it's about balance and
0:19:37 > 0:19:41choice.
0:19:41 > 0:19:48You know, retailers have got to work damn hard to make sure
0:19:48 > 0:19:51products are as good quality as we can make them.
0:19:51 > 0:19:52Camilla Cavendish.
0:19:52 > 0:19:55Well I was the author of the sugar tax on fizzy drinks.
0:19:55 > 0:19:58Which is coming in next year.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01So I'm regarded as a health fascist and deeply unpopular
0:20:01 > 0:20:02with many sections of the community.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04Are you unpopular with Iceland?
0:20:04 > 0:20:06Well I don't know because by the sound of
0:20:06 > 0:20:07it...
0:20:07 > 0:20:09You can buy quinoa, asparagus spears, you know.
0:20:09 > 0:20:12Great, I live on asparagus spears, that's all I eat.
0:20:12 > 0:20:14Come on, back to the sugar.
0:20:14 > 0:20:18Look, what I discovered, so the evidence
0:20:18 > 0:20:19on fizzy drinks is terrible.
0:20:19 > 0:20:23Teenagers in this country drink enormous amounts of it.
0:20:23 > 0:20:24Richard's point about moderation is right but
0:20:24 > 0:20:29the fact is we don't seem very good, in ourselves, to being moderate.
0:20:29 > 0:20:33We wanted to bring in a tax to make drinks more expensive.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36It was an onslaught from the companies.
0:20:36 > 0:20:37Every company said they couldn't possibly
0:20:37 > 0:20:39reformulate, it would be impossible to change their ingredients,
0:20:39 > 0:20:43impossible to take the sugar out.
0:20:43 > 0:20:46Here we are three months before the tax comes in and every single
0:20:46 > 0:20:48company except one has already reformulated
0:20:48 > 0:20:49its drink to avoid the
0:20:49 > 0:20:52tax.
0:20:52 > 0:20:54Which I think is a huge success.
0:20:54 > 0:20:58And I do actually think, sadly, I would much rather work with
0:20:58 > 0:21:03business to do these things but sometimes you really need to put
0:21:03 > 0:21:06pressure on because it is very difficult for consumers to know what
0:21:06 > 0:21:10on earth we are supposed to buy.
0:21:10 > 0:21:13Making things more expensive does change people's behaviour in a way
0:21:13 > 0:21:16I'm afraid all the leaflets we've read over the years, for the
0:21:16 > 0:21:18newspaper article fundamentally...
0:21:18 > 0:21:25You talk about sugar, do you think all processed foods, they were
0:21:25 > 0:21:27saying today the longer the list of things that make
0:21:27 > 0:21:29up the food the more
0:21:29 > 0:21:30likely it is to be highly processed.
0:21:30 > 0:21:32Do think they should be taxed?
0:21:32 > 0:21:33This is what I've read.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35I think it's very difficult having done this sugar tax
0:21:35 > 0:21:39which is relatively easy to tax sugar in a drink, because it's quite
0:21:39 > 0:21:40easy to isolate the sugar.
0:21:40 > 0:21:42I think it would be incredible difficult to
0:21:42 > 0:21:44tax individual ingredients which is actually why the government is
0:21:44 > 0:21:47trying to work with businesses like Richard's to do something slightly
0:21:47 > 0:21:48more sophisticated.
0:21:48 > 0:21:50It's obviously an issue about the way in which
0:21:50 > 0:21:53corporations and food businesses and behave when they are given these
0:21:53 > 0:21:55regulations and there's obviously more we can do on that front.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58There's obviously the other side of this equation which is people's
0:21:58 > 0:21:59pockets.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02Part of the reason they will go to Iceland and to certain
0:22:02 > 0:22:04stores is because they're cheaper and they'll buy things that are
0:22:04 > 0:22:07perhaps more processed and £1 for chicken nuggets or whatever it is.
0:22:07 > 0:22:14Which my husband quite likes actually.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18It's the way in which people make their money work.
0:22:18 > 0:22:20And we had a decade of such low wage growth
0:22:20 > 0:22:22in this country.
0:22:22 > 0:22:26We haven't had a decade of this kind of wage growth for over 200 years.
0:22:26 > 0:22:28People are really feeling the squeeze in terms
0:22:28 > 0:22:30of how much money they have left over.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33Also time restraints as well.
0:22:33 > 0:22:40So people working more hours, trying to make those ends meet.
0:22:40 > 0:22:42And that's where these sorts of short cuts and
0:22:42 > 0:22:45these kinds of foods become a possibility in which to make it
0:22:45 > 0:22:46work, make everyday work.
0:22:46 > 0:22:49So we don't want to punish those people.
0:22:49 > 0:22:51We want to do something on both sides of those equations.
0:22:51 > 0:22:53You want to give people more money, make sure
0:22:53 > 0:22:57they have jobs that pay them well, and we want to make sure that they
0:22:57 > 0:22:58can buy good produce.
0:22:58 > 0:22:59You know, there's some places you live, and
0:22:59 > 0:23:01there's like food deserts.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03It's like hard to get good, fresh produce in
0:23:03 > 0:23:05your neighbourhood, so we need to do something on both sides.
0:23:05 > 0:23:07Ruth Binney, you asked the question, what
0:23:07 > 0:23:08do you think?
0:23:08 > 0:23:10I'm particularly concerned about what I would call
0:23:10 > 0:23:13the food extras.
0:23:13 > 0:23:15The biscuits, the crisps, the things that aren't
0:23:15 > 0:23:18really nutritionally valuable.
0:23:18 > 0:23:21But I would also go further if I was going
0:23:21 > 0:23:23to have a tax on them.
0:23:23 > 0:23:24I would actually ring fence that tax money
0:23:24 > 0:23:26for the NHS.
0:23:26 > 0:23:28All right, so...
0:23:28 > 0:23:29APPLAUSE I'll come to you.
0:23:29 > 0:23:34Who else would like to talk?
0:23:34 > 0:23:35You all obviously go shopping.
0:23:35 > 0:23:38Yes, the woman there in the centre, what do you think?
0:23:38 > 0:23:40Would you like to see a tax on processed
0:23:40 > 0:23:41foods?
0:23:41 > 0:23:45Well I hate to use a pun, but it sounds like all stick and no
0:23:45 > 0:23:46carrot here.
0:23:46 > 0:23:48Instead of making processed food more expensive, why
0:23:48 > 0:23:49not make healthy food cheaper?
0:23:49 > 0:23:50Because it's actually really expensive...
0:23:50 > 0:23:52APPLAUSETo go shopping.
0:23:52 > 0:23:54To buy all of the healthy ingredients, the gentleman
0:23:54 > 0:23:57said, to make your food from scratch, it adds up.
0:23:57 > 0:23:59Ask Jamie Oliver, he says he's got those cheap
0:23:59 > 0:24:05books, but my God, it adds up, it's very expensive to cook from scratch.
0:24:05 > 0:24:08How do you find yourself buying, do you buy a lot of processed
0:24:08 > 0:24:09food?
0:24:09 > 0:24:12We try, we do try, I've got two children, so we try to eat
0:24:12 > 0:24:15healthily and we try to cook from scratch as much as possible.
0:24:15 > 0:24:17But as Faiza said, my husband and I work
0:24:17 > 0:24:20full-time, I'm a teacher and my husband's in the Navy.
0:24:20 > 0:24:22It's not always possible to go to the
0:24:22 > 0:24:23supermarket, gather up all those ingredients,
0:24:23 > 0:24:24pay for it all at once.
0:24:24 > 0:24:29It's actually really expensive to make one meal as opposed
0:24:29 > 0:24:31as opposed to grabbing, I don't know, just a takeaway or
0:24:31 > 0:24:32something like that.
0:24:32 > 0:24:34The man there.
0:24:34 > 0:24:35You agree with her?
0:24:35 > 0:24:37On making fresh food is cheaper, you can go
0:24:37 > 0:24:40into Asda and they've got things like raspberries £2 upon it, or two
0:24:40 > 0:24:41for £3.
0:24:41 > 0:24:43Why can't they just make one punnet £1.50?
0:24:43 > 0:24:45Because they go off, things go off really quick.
0:24:45 > 0:24:46The volume is too big?
0:24:46 > 0:24:47Yes.
0:24:47 > 0:24:49I don't think we want to get into retail
0:24:49 > 0:24:50arguments necessarily.
0:24:50 > 0:24:51Why not?
0:24:51 > 0:24:54Theresa Villiers.
0:24:54 > 0:25:02Well, the trouble with taxes on food is the people
0:25:02 > 0:25:04they hit in the pocket are people on the lowest incomes.
0:25:04 > 0:25:06So I'm not convinced we should take this step.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09I do, though, believe it is vital for the food
0:25:09 > 0:25:10industry to do more to
0:25:10 > 0:25:11reduce sugar content.
0:25:11 > 0:25:13I'm somewhat sceptical about this particular
0:25:13 > 0:25:17study.
0:25:17 > 0:25:20It seems they only got people to write out what they ate for two
0:25:20 > 0:25:21days.
0:25:21 > 0:25:24It seems quite a big step to draw the conclusions they have but
0:25:24 > 0:25:27there is no doubt that being overweight is one of the most
0:25:27 > 0:25:30important preventable causes of cancer.
0:25:30 > 0:25:33So the food industry and government and society as a whole,
0:25:33 > 0:25:36we need a strong public health campaign to educate people and
0:25:36 > 0:25:38support them in trying to eat more healthily,
0:25:38 > 0:25:40because that is the best way to prevent themselves from
0:25:40 > 0:25:41getting cancer.
0:25:41 > 0:25:43OK, the person up there on the gangway, yes.
0:25:43 > 0:25:46Yes, you.
0:25:46 > 0:25:50Why do we always come back to this thing about if you put prices of
0:25:50 > 0:25:52these processed and sugary goods up its always the lowest paid people
0:25:52 > 0:25:54that will suffer?
0:25:54 > 0:25:57Why does anybody need to give their children cans of
0:25:57 > 0:25:59Coke?
0:25:59 > 0:26:04You're not going to die if you don't have a can of Coke.
0:26:04 > 0:26:06There is water, there's much less fizzy,
0:26:06 > 0:26:08sweet drinks about, and cheaper.
0:26:08 > 0:26:11OK.
0:26:11 > 0:26:15The woman there.
0:26:15 > 0:26:20Perhaps we should look at the cause and go back to the
0:26:20 > 0:26:22syllabus of home economics at school and teach people, teach children,
0:26:22 > 0:26:26how to cook properly from scratch.
0:26:26 > 0:26:30We used to do it when I went to school and now they have to put a
0:26:30 > 0:26:32topping on a pizza that they bought in a shop.
0:26:32 > 0:26:40APPLAUSE David Lammy.
0:26:40 > 0:26:46I think we've really got to keep in mind when we're
0:26:46 > 0:26:49talking about taxes, families where both couples are working.
0:26:49 > 0:26:50And finishing work at five, six o'clock
0:26:50 > 0:26:51in the evening.
0:26:51 > 0:26:57Like her family.
0:26:57 > 0:27:03We've got to keep in mind single mums, we've got to keep in mind
0:27:03 > 0:27:04those on zero-hour contracts.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07And so the fact is that processed food is a way
0:27:07 > 0:27:08of life.
0:27:08 > 0:27:12It seems to me the starting point is the regulation.
0:27:12 > 0:27:14Don't underestimate the power, sorry, big
0:27:14 > 0:27:22supermarkets in this country.
0:27:23 > 0:27:24Don't underestimate how governments can
0:27:24 > 0:27:26defer, often, the debate around labelling.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29Too much fat, too much sugar, too much salt in a lot of
0:27:29 > 0:27:30this food.
0:27:30 > 0:27:33You've got to get the regulation first before you start to
0:27:33 > 0:27:35tax people because of the circumstances in which they live, it
0:27:35 > 0:27:36seems to me.
0:27:36 > 0:27:37Do you feel unregulated?
0:27:37 > 0:27:40Is it right saying you have the power, not the government?
0:27:40 > 0:27:42I'm broadly in favour, you know, of regulation
0:27:42 > 0:27:45coming in, so long as
0:27:45 > 0:27:48it's a level playing field and the industry can act together.
0:27:48 > 0:27:50I think the lady over there made a really
0:27:50 > 0:27:52valid point on home economics and education.
0:27:52 > 0:27:53That must play a role as well.
0:27:53 > 0:27:58You know, if...
0:27:58 > 0:28:00Why do we always blame the schools for what in
0:28:00 > 0:28:02the end is a supermarket problem?
0:28:02 > 0:28:05Leave the teachers out of it.
0:28:05 > 0:28:08Let us not demonise a ready meal because if
0:28:08 > 0:28:10it's good quality and, you know, you don't
0:28:10 > 0:28:11have much time, what is the
0:28:11 > 0:28:12problem?
0:28:12 > 0:28:17Can I explain one thing?
0:28:17 > 0:28:18We'll come to you.
0:28:18 > 0:28:21The sugar tax on drinks was not a tax on customers, it's a
0:28:21 > 0:28:22tax on manufacturers.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25And the whole point of it was to get manufacturers
0:28:25 > 0:28:26to change the ingredients in the product.
0:28:26 > 0:28:27So it comes...
0:28:27 > 0:28:29They've cut down the amount of sugars.
0:28:29 > 0:28:30That's what would work best.
0:28:30 > 0:28:32So nobody's paying this tax, you're saying?
0:28:32 > 0:28:33If you can actually get manufacturers
0:28:33 > 0:28:35to stop putting junk, because it's cheaper for them,
0:28:35 > 0:28:39into their products.
0:28:39 > 0:28:42But Coca-Cola as a result of this is reducing the amount of
0:28:42 > 0:28:49Coke and putting the price up.
0:28:49 > 0:28:51Coca-Cola are not, Coca-Cola is the one company
0:28:51 > 0:28:53that is not changing
0:28:53 > 0:28:54their product as I understand.
0:28:54 > 0:28:56And they're putting the price?
0:28:56 > 0:28:57I don't know what they're doing with the
0:28:57 > 0:28:59price, but they're not...
0:28:59 > 0:29:01They made that the price up but you will have
0:29:01 > 0:29:02other options which will be cheaper.
0:29:02 > 0:29:03The woman here.
0:29:03 > 0:29:06When I went to postnatal classes just after having
0:29:06 > 0:29:09my babies, a lot of the other mothers there were saying their
0:29:09 > 0:29:11children wouldn't drink water, they would only drink squash,
0:29:11 > 0:29:12and they would only eat biscuits and wouldn't
0:29:12 > 0:29:14eat vegetables.
0:29:14 > 0:29:16In my view, the point about education is really
0:29:16 > 0:29:18important, but actually I think it's educating parents, because once
0:29:18 > 0:29:20you've got a child, even at five or six,
0:29:20 > 0:29:23and they've been brought up eating biscuits and cakes and not
0:29:23 > 0:29:25eating vegetables and not understanding about that side of
0:29:25 > 0:29:26things, it's almost too late.
0:29:26 > 0:29:28So I'm not convinced particularly about the
0:29:28 > 0:29:31tax, although I like the idea of it being preventative.
0:29:31 > 0:29:33I think are really, really important thing is to
0:29:33 > 0:29:41make sure we have good dedication of parents and parenting.
0:29:42 > 0:29:43OK.
0:29:43 > 0:29:44APPLAUSE The man up
0:29:44 > 0:29:45there, you were saying?
0:29:45 > 0:29:47You need to make distinction between preprepared food and
0:29:47 > 0:29:48processed food.
0:29:48 > 0:29:55Which has got blown up there.
0:29:55 > 0:29:56- blurred.
0:29:56 > 0:30:02You can buy from Iceland preprepared food that isn't
0:30:02 > 0:30:03processed, just need heating.
0:30:03 > 0:30:04And then processed foods, like sausages,
0:30:04 > 0:30:05burgers, things like that.
0:30:05 > 0:30:07Food that just needs eating sounds...
0:30:07 > 0:30:10Heating!
0:30:10 > 0:30:11LAUGHTER
0:30:11 > 0:30:14"This food just needs eating"!
0:30:14 > 0:30:15The woman there.
0:30:15 > 0:30:17I wanted to say the thing about schools is too easy.
0:30:17 > 0:30:20I've got two kids at high school.
0:30:20 > 0:30:21They've made chicken nuggets from scratch.
0:30:21 > 0:30:23They've made vegetable korma from scratch.
0:30:23 > 0:30:25They bring them home and it's delicious.
0:30:25 > 0:30:27So it is happening in schools.
0:30:27 > 0:30:31Let's move to another question.
0:30:31 > 0:30:33Since we are talking about schools, I'll bring
0:30:33 > 0:30:35you in if you'd like to come in.
0:30:35 > 0:30:40It's a question from Michelle Moredue.
0:30:40 > 0:30:44Can the ticking time bomb of mental health and stress
0:30:44 > 0:30:48in our schools really be solved by even more testing?
0:30:48 > 0:30:50This is based on this announcement that schools,
0:30:50 > 0:30:54eight and nine-year-olds are going to have tests
0:30:54 > 0:30:59of their tables added to the tables they already have.
0:30:59 > 0:31:02Further from that, the suggestion from Nick Gibb to bring testing
0:31:02 > 0:31:05further down to 12-year-olds, because it would alleviate
0:31:05 > 0:31:09their exam stress further on in their educational career.
0:31:09 > 0:31:12Obviously, the whole thing of stress in schools is a really
0:31:12 > 0:31:13serious, growing issue.
0:31:13 > 0:31:15Theresa Villiers, what do you think?
0:31:15 > 0:31:19Yeah, I do worry about the amount of testing
0:31:19 > 0:31:23there is in schools, but it is working.
0:31:23 > 0:31:25School standards are rising.
0:31:25 > 0:31:30Literacy standards are improving dramatically in our schools.
0:31:30 > 0:31:34We are seeing exam standards rising as well.
0:31:34 > 0:31:38And I believe that, whilst it's important to keep these
0:31:38 > 0:31:40things under review...
0:31:40 > 0:31:42I think we should think very carefully before
0:31:42 > 0:31:45introducing new tests.
0:31:45 > 0:31:48But, for example with the latest announcements on times tables,
0:31:48 > 0:31:51these are the sort of tests that have been used successfully
0:31:51 > 0:31:52elsewhere in the world.
0:31:52 > 0:31:55And I do believe that testing is helping to deliver very
0:31:55 > 0:31:58significant improvements in our education system.
0:31:58 > 0:32:02But are the test scores rising but actually the application
0:32:02 > 0:32:06of the skills are not rising?
0:32:06 > 0:32:08I think that's what I find, as a deputy headteacher,
0:32:08 > 0:32:11as somebody who is working on the front line with education.
0:32:11 > 0:32:13They are not actually able then to apply those skills.
0:32:13 > 0:32:15They are not using those skills in the right frame,
0:32:15 > 0:32:19in the right way, when they go out into the workforce.
0:32:19 > 0:32:23You asked a question about mental stress.
0:32:23 > 0:32:25Do you find that growing in your school?
0:32:25 > 0:32:26Absolutely.
0:32:26 > 0:32:28Without enough funding being put in place for those
0:32:28 > 0:32:30children to support them.
0:32:30 > 0:32:32We are effectively telling the children that they've failed
0:32:32 > 0:32:33at such a young age.
0:32:33 > 0:32:36And all that does is degrade them.
0:32:36 > 0:32:38We've already got several generations walking around
0:32:38 > 0:32:40having hated school.
0:32:40 > 0:32:42APPLAUSE
0:32:42 > 0:32:44We mustn't create another generation of people
0:32:44 > 0:32:49that don't enjoy school.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51Surely it's our job to light the fires.
0:32:51 > 0:32:54What form does the mental health and stress take
0:32:54 > 0:32:56in your experience as a deputy head?
0:32:56 > 0:32:58Well, you've got children who are fearful of going
0:32:58 > 0:32:59into an exam situation.
0:32:59 > 0:33:01They are fearful of it, worried about not passing.
0:33:01 > 0:33:05All they are bothered about is what they get on the test score.
0:33:05 > 0:33:07And then it becomes not about acquiring skills for life.
0:33:07 > 0:33:10It becomes about that test score.
0:33:10 > 0:33:13So yes, actually the phonics test did raise the standards.
0:33:13 > 0:33:16It raised the standards in passing a test.
0:33:16 > 0:33:18But it didn't actually impact on reading.
0:33:18 > 0:33:20And that's what it is.
0:33:20 > 0:33:22Or cultivate a love of reading.
0:33:22 > 0:33:24We are going up the international league tables
0:33:24 > 0:33:25on literacy and reading.
0:33:25 > 0:33:26It has had an effect.
0:33:26 > 0:33:28And how are we doing on mental health?
0:33:28 > 0:33:31Well, we need to do better on mental health, which is why the government
0:33:31 > 0:33:34is committed to a dramatic increase in funding for mental health care.
0:33:34 > 0:33:35All right.
0:33:35 > 0:33:38Would you accept that what is being described by Michelle
0:33:38 > 0:33:41is a price that has to be paid for improvement in the international
0:33:41 > 0:33:43table of excellence?
0:33:43 > 0:33:48Is stress a natural consequence of what is being imposed on children?
0:33:48 > 0:33:51Of course we should be doing everything we can to prevent mental
0:33:51 > 0:33:53health issues in children.
0:33:53 > 0:33:58But it is possible to introduce new tests in schools without
0:33:58 > 0:34:02excessive stress on students.
0:34:02 > 0:34:06And it is very important to recognise the role of testing
0:34:06 > 0:34:09in ensuring that children are getting a decent education
0:34:09 > 0:34:12that is crucial for them getting a good start in life.
0:34:12 > 0:34:14The person behind Michelle.
0:34:14 > 0:34:17I've been a teacher.
0:34:17 > 0:34:17I've also written exam specifications.
0:34:17 > 0:34:19I've been a teacher for 23 years.
0:34:19 > 0:34:22I now work in a charity with people who suffer
0:34:22 > 0:34:23with mental health issues.
0:34:23 > 0:34:27I understand that assessment is simply about statistics.
0:34:27 > 0:34:29It's simply about so this country can say to another country,
0:34:29 > 0:34:31"Look how good our students are".
0:34:31 > 0:34:33This generation are disempowered.
0:34:33 > 0:34:35I have three children in their 20s.
0:34:35 > 0:34:37They can't remember their maths because it was something
0:34:37 > 0:34:39that was done to them.
0:34:39 > 0:34:41They weren't engaged in it at all.
0:34:41 > 0:34:43The vocational education, the BTECs went out.
0:34:43 > 0:34:46That was an absolute disaster because BTECs were brilliant.
0:34:46 > 0:34:48They engaged the pupil, taught them life skills,
0:34:48 > 0:34:52gave them interpersonal skills, great communication skills.
0:34:52 > 0:34:55And now we are just back to a simple test which is testing one form
0:34:55 > 0:34:58of intelligence in one way which suits a certain
0:34:58 > 0:34:59group of people.
0:34:59 > 0:35:07APPLAUSE
0:35:07 > 0:35:09Camilla Cavendish.
0:35:09 > 0:35:12Well, I have three children and the eldest is just
0:35:12 > 0:35:14about to do his GCSEs.
0:35:14 > 0:35:18And I think, you know I've been around the policy
0:35:18 > 0:35:19world for a long time.
0:35:19 > 0:35:22It's not until you have kids that you see it for what it is.
0:35:22 > 0:35:24And what I can't believe is how little has changed
0:35:24 > 0:35:30since I was at school.
0:35:30 > 0:35:33And it seems to me that we test memory, we test short-term memory
0:35:33 > 0:35:35and being able to learn things by rote.
0:35:35 > 0:35:37And it is important to learn your times tables,
0:35:37 > 0:35:40but we still test those things when we are living in a world
0:35:40 > 0:35:43where short-term memory is no longer very important.
0:35:43 > 0:35:45And I do think your point is very interesting
0:35:45 > 0:35:46about the application of skills.
0:35:46 > 0:35:48We have gone up the league tables.
0:35:48 > 0:35:53But I worry when I look at the GCSE courses about the content of those
0:35:53 > 0:35:56courses and the number of keywords you have to just produce in order
0:35:56 > 0:35:58to get a tick in the box.
0:35:58 > 0:36:00I think there is something missing.
0:36:00 > 0:36:04I wonder whether actually we should still be testing kids at 16 at all,
0:36:04 > 0:36:06given that everybody now stays until 18.
0:36:06 > 0:36:09And I worry that we are just creating...
0:36:09 > 0:36:12Luckily we have abolished AS-levels which means at least you don't
0:36:12 > 0:36:14have yet another series of tests.
0:36:14 > 0:36:16But what we need are children who are really
0:36:16 > 0:36:17curious about the world.
0:36:17 > 0:36:20We need children who can actually apply their skills.
0:36:20 > 0:36:23And I have to say, I do believe in testing, I do
0:36:23 > 0:36:24believe it's important.
0:36:24 > 0:36:26But I don't think we are catering for children with dyslexia,
0:36:26 > 0:36:29for children with a whole series of challenges who are not
0:36:29 > 0:36:32particularly good at short-term memory.
0:36:32 > 0:36:35There are many, many other skills that we are going to need if Britain
0:36:35 > 0:36:37is going to compete in the world.
0:36:37 > 0:36:40And what about the stress and mental health as a price that is paid
0:36:40 > 0:36:41for this testing regime?
0:36:41 > 0:36:43We are seeing an awful lot of that.
0:36:43 > 0:36:45An increasing amount of that?
0:36:45 > 0:36:48I think the onus is partly on schools to, as much as possible,
0:36:48 > 0:36:49try and reduce the stress.
0:36:49 > 0:36:52I think some children at a very early age are picking up
0:36:52 > 0:36:54stress from their teachers and from the whole environment,
0:36:54 > 0:36:56and I think that is a major problem.
0:36:56 > 0:36:57The woman up there on the end.
0:36:57 > 0:37:00I've got three granddaughters aged from seven up,
0:37:00 > 0:37:04and they love nothing more than to have a test.
0:37:04 > 0:37:07And I think when they are little and they are being given tests,
0:37:07 > 0:37:11that's fun, and like the lady said, the stress can
0:37:11 > 0:37:14come from the teachers.
0:37:14 > 0:37:17And if the teachers aren't stressed, the children aren't stressed.
0:37:17 > 0:37:20The SATs was explained as a special test, and it was something
0:37:20 > 0:37:25to be excited about.
0:37:25 > 0:37:26OK, you, sir, in the front.
0:37:26 > 0:37:29There are a lot of people with their hands up.
0:37:29 > 0:37:30Yes, you.
0:37:30 > 0:37:31At my university...
0:37:31 > 0:37:32Someone said their kids really enjoy testing.
0:37:32 > 0:37:34The majority don't.
0:37:34 > 0:37:37At my university there is a real emphasis being placed upon getting
0:37:37 > 0:37:41kids to engage in schools through learning through sport.
0:37:41 > 0:37:46So rather than sat down in the classroom learning
0:37:46 > 0:37:49their times tables they are actually out applying skills through PE,
0:37:49 > 0:37:52physical education, which has been proved to work across Hampshire
0:37:52 > 0:37:54on a large scale.
0:37:54 > 0:37:57I think it should be rolled out across more counties across the UK.
0:37:57 > 0:38:00Faiza Shaheen, do you think there is a rising problem of mental
0:38:00 > 0:38:04stress among children because of exams?
0:38:04 > 0:38:06Is not a matter of thinking.
0:38:06 > 0:38:07It's a fact, isn't it?
0:38:07 > 0:38:08It's just there.
0:38:08 > 0:38:10We need to listen more to teachers.
0:38:10 > 0:38:12And this is what's happened in the last eight years
0:38:12 > 0:38:15since we've had Conservative-led governments as well, that we have
0:38:15 > 0:38:17cut and cut and cut.
0:38:17 > 0:38:19Teachers themselves are under huge amounts of stress.
0:38:19 > 0:38:22You don't have teaching assistants any more.
0:38:22 > 0:38:26There's a lot more to do, with the testing as well.
0:38:26 > 0:38:29We need to listen to you about your own stresses as well as what's
0:38:29 > 0:38:34going on with the children and the kids in your class.
0:38:34 > 0:38:35We already assess our children.
0:38:35 > 0:38:39I think it's frankly insulting to have to bring in a test to do
0:38:39 > 0:38:41a job that we are already capable of doing.
0:38:41 > 0:38:42Trust the professionals.
0:38:42 > 0:38:43We do know what we're doing.
0:38:43 > 0:38:49APPLAUSE
0:38:49 > 0:38:51And we hear about mental health all of the time,
0:38:51 > 0:38:53from Theresa May talking about investment in mental health.
0:38:53 > 0:38:57When I go out and talk to youth services, to people working
0:38:57 > 0:38:59in mental health with young people, it is cut.
0:38:59 > 0:39:02The truth of the matter on the ground is very
0:39:02 > 0:39:04different to what we hear from government ministers.
0:39:04 > 0:39:07APPLAUSE
0:39:07 > 0:39:10Richard Walker, you must see lots of people coming out
0:39:10 > 0:39:12of the education system to work for you.
0:39:12 > 0:39:15What is your impression of the way that they are being taught
0:39:15 > 0:39:18and the pressures they are under?
0:39:18 > 0:39:22Well, I'm no educational expert but I am a dad to two young girls.
0:39:22 > 0:39:26And obviously I want them to be the best they can be and do whatever
0:39:26 > 0:39:28they want to do in life.
0:39:28 > 0:39:30But I'm already worried about the amount of homework
0:39:30 > 0:39:33they have and the amount of tests they have.
0:39:33 > 0:39:37My wife used to work in Norway and I think kids start school
0:39:37 > 0:39:39there aged six or seven.
0:39:39 > 0:39:42And it seems a lot more of a relaxed introduction.
0:39:42 > 0:39:47But to David's point, in terms of what we see,
0:39:47 > 0:39:50I think in terms of targets a lot of school leavers think that
0:39:50 > 0:39:54maybe higher education, university, is the only
0:39:54 > 0:39:55option available to them.
0:39:55 > 0:40:00But skills for life was a great phrase, because we need to be
0:40:00 > 0:40:03looking at a broad sweep of options, from vocational training
0:40:03 > 0:40:05to the apprenticeship levy which is coming,
0:40:05 > 0:40:07which is fantastic.
0:40:07 > 0:40:10We sponsor school leavers, pay them a graduate equivalent salary,
0:40:10 > 0:40:12but they are 18 and they can train with us.
0:40:12 > 0:40:18APPLAUSE
0:40:18 > 0:40:20Let's come to the testing.
0:40:20 > 0:40:21The woman on the right.
0:40:21 > 0:40:24I think a lot of the mental stress is caused by the desire
0:40:24 > 0:40:26of parents and the children themselves to succeed.
0:40:26 > 0:40:29But I think a lesson in life is if you fail,
0:40:29 > 0:40:31you then try again harder the next time.
0:40:31 > 0:40:33So I don't think these children should be under undue
0:40:33 > 0:40:34pressure the whole time.
0:40:34 > 0:40:42Being a failure is also a lesson in life.
0:40:46 > 0:40:47And the woman on the right.
0:40:47 > 0:40:49You said that your government was committed to providing
0:40:49 > 0:40:51more support for mental health in schools.
0:40:51 > 0:40:54I am a teacher and I'm wondering when that's going to come through,
0:40:54 > 0:40:57because as a tutor I have students come to me with mental health issues
0:40:57 > 0:40:58pretty much every day.
0:40:58 > 0:41:01And there is no support that we can access as teachers.
0:41:01 > 0:41:04We are having to be counsellors as well as teachers.
0:41:04 > 0:41:06What do you do when somebody comes to you?
0:41:06 > 0:41:08Are you a teacher of young people?
0:41:08 > 0:41:10I teach A-levels at a college.
0:41:10 > 0:41:12What do you do when people come to you?
0:41:12 > 0:41:15I support them as best as I can and I refer them to what services
0:41:15 > 0:41:16are available in our college.
0:41:16 > 0:41:20But more often than not it can take weeks for them to get
0:41:20 > 0:41:22in with a counsellor.
0:41:22 > 0:41:24And when you are 16, that's too long.
0:41:24 > 0:41:29They need help then and there.
0:41:29 > 0:41:31Do you attribute this to the testing in schools?
0:41:31 > 0:41:32Yes.
0:41:32 > 0:41:35There's a huge amount of pressure put on young people to get
0:41:35 > 0:41:37the grades they need at A-level, to get into university.
0:41:37 > 0:41:40And it's this constant, "You need to do this
0:41:40 > 0:41:42"to get to the next step".
0:41:42 > 0:41:44What's the end for them?
0:41:44 > 0:41:46David Lammy.
0:41:46 > 0:41:51Well, I think the question is, why has the government suddenly
0:41:51 > 0:41:56decided that we need another round of tests for eight-year-olds,
0:41:56 > 0:41:58that that is the priority?
0:41:58 > 0:42:01I just don't think that's the priority.
0:42:01 > 0:42:06The priority, if we are going to exit the European Union, is skills.
0:42:06 > 0:42:09So bring back night schools in this country.
0:42:09 > 0:42:14The priority is invest in youth services in this country.
0:42:14 > 0:42:19The priority is, why have we cut FE budgets by 50%?
0:42:19 > 0:42:22Are any open in the evening, so people can skill up?
0:42:22 > 0:42:27Those are the priorities, not testing eight-year-olds.
0:42:27 > 0:42:31And yes, it's so sad that we're walking down the road,
0:42:31 > 0:42:33like the Americans, we are seeing more self-harm of youngsters,
0:42:33 > 0:42:37really young kids.
0:42:37 > 0:42:42Our teachers are stressed out and leaving the profession.
0:42:42 > 0:42:45And if you have a child with a mental health problem,
0:42:45 > 0:42:47or a learning disability, or one of those issues,
0:42:47 > 0:42:50you try getting a speech therapist.
0:42:50 > 0:42:53You try ringing up child and adolescent mental health services.
0:42:53 > 0:42:56Impossible to get on the waiting list.
0:42:56 > 0:42:59You are waiting for years basically just to get seen.
0:42:59 > 0:43:02That's the context.
0:43:02 > 0:43:04APPLAUSE
0:43:04 > 0:43:07Under Conservative-led governments
0:43:07 > 0:43:10there are 1.9 million more children studying in good or
0:43:10 > 0:43:11outstanding schools.
0:43:11 > 0:43:14We are seeing stronger exam standards and also,
0:43:14 > 0:43:17for the very first time in the history of the NHS,
0:43:17 > 0:43:21we are introducing waiting time targets for mental health care.
0:43:21 > 0:43:24We are investing record amounts, more than ever before,
0:43:24 > 0:43:27in mental health care, with a strong focus
0:43:27 > 0:43:28on young people in schools.
0:43:28 > 0:43:33So we are focused on this problem, and I also want to emphasise...
0:43:33 > 0:43:35I agree very strongly, the apprenticeship levy
0:43:35 > 0:43:40is a revolutionary instrument of social justice in education.
0:43:40 > 0:43:43It's going to mean many millions more young people getting a real
0:43:43 > 0:43:46effective start in life.
0:43:46 > 0:43:48So I don't accept Faiza's characterisation of schools
0:43:48 > 0:43:51under this government.
0:43:51 > 0:43:54There have been significant improvements.
0:43:54 > 0:43:57What do you say to the point David Lammy was making about people
0:43:57 > 0:44:00who need psychological support and can't get it, people who need
0:44:00 > 0:44:03speech therapy and can't get it, the long delays that the teacher
0:44:03 > 0:44:06was talking about and everybody knows about, before these
0:44:06 > 0:44:08young people get help?
0:44:08 > 0:44:12Of course we want young people to get help as quickly as possible
0:44:12 > 0:44:14of course you want them to, but he is saying you haven't
0:44:14 > 0:44:16done anything about it.
0:44:16 > 0:44:18But that is why we are investing far more in talking therapies
0:44:18 > 0:44:21than the government of which he was a member ever did.
0:44:21 > 0:44:24Yes, it takes a while to get to those therapies but that is why
0:44:24 > 0:44:26we've introduced these waiting time targets.
0:44:26 > 0:44:31Something that no Labour government has ever done.
0:44:31 > 0:44:35The person up there at the back on the gangway.
0:44:35 > 0:44:38Nothing's going to change the fact that some people are academic
0:44:38 > 0:44:39and some people aren't.
0:44:39 > 0:44:41More and more tests isn't going to make people
0:44:41 > 0:44:43brighter or more academic.
0:44:43 > 0:44:46Shouldn't children be allowed to be children, and maybe that
0:44:46 > 0:44:49would help their mental health?
0:44:49 > 0:44:50What do you mean by children?
0:44:50 > 0:44:54More and more, they seem to be given tests and tests and they have
0:44:54 > 0:44:59to meet these targets and those targets.
0:44:59 > 0:45:01Why not let them be children?
0:45:01 > 0:45:03The academic ones will do it anyway and not testing will give
0:45:03 > 0:45:05the teachers more time to teach.
0:45:05 > 0:45:07A lot of people with their hands up.
0:45:07 > 0:45:10Let's go to the very back.
0:45:10 > 0:45:14I'm a teacher as well and absolutely agree with a lot of what's been
0:45:14 > 0:45:17said.
0:45:17 > 0:45:20I believe one of the arguments is that, from the government, is
0:45:20 > 0:45:22that the 8-9 -year-old multiplication tables test will tell
0:45:22 > 0:45:30teachers whether children need help.
0:45:31 > 0:45:34I can assure you all the teachers I've worked with absolutely know
0:45:34 > 0:45:36without putting children through additional testing where they need
0:45:36 > 0:45:37help.
0:45:37 > 0:45:39The problem is getting that help.
0:45:39 > 0:45:40OK.
0:45:40 > 0:45:43Yes, you.
0:45:43 > 0:45:45What I would like to say is that all children are
0:45:45 > 0:45:46individuals, they're all different.
0:45:46 > 0:45:48They develop at different rates.
0:45:48 > 0:45:51They learn in different ways.
0:45:51 > 0:45:53The idea that you're supposed to get them
0:45:53 > 0:45:54to meet certain targets is
0:45:54 > 0:45:56going to put a lot of pressure on them
0:45:56 > 0:45:58at a very young age, which is
0:45:58 > 0:45:59not fair on the children.
0:45:59 > 0:46:02To learn at such a young age the pressures of
0:46:02 > 0:46:06trying to fix themselves into a certain box.
0:46:06 > 0:46:09I'll take one more point.
0:46:09 > 0:46:13My point was really to do with the south-west.
0:46:13 > 0:46:15The recent social mobility commission report
0:46:15 > 0:46:17showed West Somerset was one of the least
0:46:17 > 0:46:18socially mobile areas in the
0:46:18 > 0:46:20country and part of that is the education.
0:46:20 > 0:46:23What's the government going to do about that in terms of rural
0:46:23 > 0:46:27schools?
0:46:27 > 0:46:28Do you want to answer that?
0:46:28 > 0:46:31And then we must move on.
0:46:31 > 0:46:33I believe that in terms of social mobility a
0:46:33 > 0:46:35good education is absolutely crucial, that's why we've been
0:46:35 > 0:46:38focusing on exam standards.
0:46:38 > 0:46:41That's also why we want to revolutionise
0:46:41 > 0:46:42technical education with the introduction
0:46:42 > 0:46:45of T-levels and also, as I said, give many more young
0:46:45 > 0:46:48people access to apprenticeships to give them the skills they need to
0:46:48 > 0:46:49get the jobs they want.
0:46:49 > 0:46:54OK.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56In rural areas.
0:46:56 > 0:46:59Why is that, what's going to be done about it, what resources are
0:46:59 > 0:47:01going to go into it to change that?
0:47:01 > 0:47:03Well the apprenticeship level will put, you know, far greater funds
0:47:03 > 0:47:05into skills training than ever before.
0:47:05 > 0:47:06It's nonsense, it's just not...
0:47:06 > 0:47:08Look, in the south-west FE budgets are being cut.
0:47:08 > 0:47:10Money is not rising in schools.
0:47:10 > 0:47:11Children's centres are being shut down.
0:47:11 > 0:47:13She's not, I'm afraid she's just got it
0:47:13 > 0:47:20wrong, it's not happening on the ground, it just isn't.
0:47:20 > 0:47:22It's good, I mean, I agree.
0:47:22 > 0:47:23You agree.
0:47:23 > 0:47:24We'll move on.
0:47:24 > 0:47:27We're going to a question because of where we're sitting.
0:47:27 > 0:47:28It was likely to come up.
0:47:28 > 0:47:31I'm sure some of you were directly involved in it.
0:47:31 > 0:47:33Let's have the question from Christopher Parker please.
0:47:33 > 0:47:35Can we afford to further erode the Armed
0:47:35 > 0:47:37Forces, for instant potential cuts to the helicopter fleet that is
0:47:37 > 0:47:43produced and operated within Yeovil?
0:47:43 > 0:47:48Just tell us about what's operated in Yeovil.
0:47:48 > 0:47:51For instance, here at the base we've got the Merlin and the
0:47:51 > 0:47:56new Wildcat.
0:47:56 > 0:47:58Both produced at the Leonardo factory in Yeovil.
0:47:58 > 0:47:59And you're threatened with cuts?
0:47:59 > 0:48:04The force that I am on, the Wildcat, there's been rumours, the Wildcat
0:48:04 > 0:48:07fleet being halved to fill, you know, to cover the cost of the
0:48:07 > 0:48:10amphibious fleet.
0:48:10 > 0:48:12OK.
0:48:12 > 0:48:20Camilla Cavendish.
0:48:20 > 0:48:22I guess the Conservative government did raise the armed
0:48:22 > 0:48:24services budget to 2% of GDP, which I thought
0:48:24 > 0:48:25was really important.
0:48:25 > 0:48:27And it gave a really important signal to
0:48:27 > 0:48:30Nato that we are in there and we are behind them
0:48:30 > 0:48:37and we are fulfilling our global responsibilities.
0:48:37 > 0:48:39And I think it's really particularly important as we move towards leaving
0:48:39 > 0:48:43the EU that we continue to play that card, because it's one of our
0:48:43 > 0:48:45strongest suits, actually, with some of our EU
0:48:45 > 0:48:46partners and also with the
0:48:46 > 0:48:47United States.
0:48:47 > 0:48:49And I, as I understand it, the government has
0:48:49 > 0:48:51committed to that, to keep that target.
0:48:51 > 0:48:53Clearly, because the pound has fallen in value so much because
0:48:53 > 0:48:57of Brexit compared to the dollar there is a real issue now about the
0:48:57 > 0:48:59purchase of equipment the armed services is supposed to be making,
0:48:59 > 0:49:01and the pressures on the budget.
0:49:01 > 0:49:04And I don't know the detail of that, but
0:49:04 > 0:49:12there was definitely going to be some questions about that.
0:49:12 > 0:49:13Wasn't the budget cut between 2010-2015 by
0:49:13 > 0:49:15about nearly 20%, the defence budget?
0:49:15 > 0:49:19I don't know how much there were some cuts made, but in 2015
0:49:19 > 0:49:21obviously the government committed to 2% of GDP.
0:49:21 > 0:49:25And you are happy with that?
0:49:25 > 0:49:27Yeah, I thought that was a really important signal.
0:49:27 > 0:49:30And I think the question now is how are they
0:49:30 > 0:49:32going to respond to those cost pressures that are coming, really,
0:49:32 > 0:49:34from the pound against the dollar.
0:49:34 > 0:49:36I suppose the one thing I would say is
0:49:36 > 0:49:40we need to make sure we're not going to have a defence review by stealth.
0:49:40 > 0:49:43We need to be told the facts and we need to know
0:49:43 > 0:49:44exactly what's going to
0:49:44 > 0:49:51happen.
0:49:51 > 0:49:54And I think there's been a lot of confusion, obfuscation about
0:49:54 > 0:49:55this from various quarters.
0:49:55 > 0:49:56And we need the Defence Secretary to make
0:49:56 > 0:49:59it very, very clear what his commitment's going to be.
0:49:59 > 0:50:00Christopher Parker do you think defenc
0:50:00 > 0:50:02is being badly handled at the
0:50:02 > 0:50:03moment?
0:50:03 > 0:50:04Is that what you're saying?
0:50:04 > 0:50:05Certainly I see that.
0:50:05 > 0:50:08And the threat that we keep hearing, for instance, the Albion and the
0:50:08 > 0:50:10Bulwark getting ditched, which is eroding further the amphibious
0:50:10 > 0:50:12assault capability of the Navy.
0:50:12 > 0:50:14In we need to plug it somewhere, I understand, money
0:50:14 > 0:50:15doesn't grow on trees.
0:50:15 > 0:50:17And also the Marines, potential cuts to the
0:50:17 > 0:50:25Marines as well, we can't just scrap these historic units as well.
0:50:25 > 0:50:33Faiza, what do you think?
0:50:34 > 0:50:36When I think about issues of the military, me
0:50:36 > 0:50:38personally, I would prefer if we weren't involved,
0:50:38 > 0:50:41obviously, in more wars, but the thing is we obviously
0:50:41 > 0:50:42need the military.
0:50:42 > 0:50:43The big thing is about jobs.
0:50:43 > 0:50:46So the problem is, when they make these cuts they don't plan
0:50:46 > 0:50:48ahead, they don't think about what this means
0:50:48 > 0:50:49for people's security.
0:50:49 > 0:50:51So if they can take those skills and use
0:50:51 > 0:50:53it in other sectors, that's the
0:50:53 > 0:50:55way in which we need to do it.
0:50:55 > 0:50:56We often know these things are coming
0:50:56 > 0:50:57up.
0:50:57 > 0:51:02And we just let it come to that point where there's a crisis and
0:51:02 > 0:51:03people are worried about their jobs.
0:51:03 > 0:51:05Small towns where those are, you know,
0:51:05 > 0:51:08quite a big share of the jobs, then that has massive implications for
0:51:08 > 0:51:09those communities.
0:51:09 > 0:51:12What I would say is, if over time we want to make
0:51:12 > 0:51:14cuts to the military budget, and we want
0:51:14 > 0:51:16to shift our economy into
0:51:16 > 0:51:22working on other sectors, we have to do that with jobs in mind and we
0:51:22 > 0:51:23have to do that slowly.
0:51:23 > 0:51:25We just don't see those plans there.
0:51:25 > 0:51:27It's very frustrating for people that are
0:51:27 > 0:51:28in those sectors.
0:51:28 > 0:51:33David Lammy.
0:51:33 > 0:51:34Well look, our armed services do a very
0:51:34 > 0:51:37important job and it's not just in moments of war.
0:51:37 > 0:51:38Peace keeping all over the world.
0:51:38 > 0:51:40Patrolling the seas against pirates, drugs, all sorts of
0:51:40 > 0:51:42issues that British armed services are involved in.
0:51:42 > 0:51:44That's got to be funded.
0:51:44 > 0:51:46I want to put my hands firmly on the table.
0:51:46 > 0:51:52I am opposed to Trident.
0:51:52 > 0:51:55I have been committed to wanting our country to lead on
0:51:55 > 0:51:56nuclear disarmament for many, many years.
0:51:56 > 0:51:58And if we could at least cooperate with some others,
0:51:58 > 0:52:01particularly on nuclear weapons, then we might have more money to
0:52:01 > 0:52:03spend on the important armed services.
0:52:03 > 0:52:10You were nodding, Mr, about this, you agree with that?
0:52:13 > 0:52:17Which is probably contrary to a lot of people I work with, being a
0:52:17 > 0:52:19Yorkshire and I understand we're never going to use
0:52:19 > 0:52:20Trident, I hope we never
0:52:20 > 0:52:24use it.
0:52:24 > 0:52:27I would never push the button, I hope no one else would.
0:52:27 > 0:52:29Let's plug the gap with the money from Trident.
0:52:29 > 0:52:30Theresa Villiers.
0:52:30 > 0:52:32Would you save on Trident and build helicopters?
0:52:32 > 0:52:36Not just that, but...
0:52:36 > 0:52:38We have the best armed services in the world.
0:52:38 > 0:52:41And they need to be funded.
0:52:41 > 0:52:45And the government's committed to the Nato
0:52:45 > 0:52:50obligation of spending 2% on defence spending.
0:52:50 > 0:52:53Whilst I can't answer your question on those individual
0:52:53 > 0:52:56projects, they think we are all well aware there is a very, very lively
0:52:56 > 0:52:58debate within government and within Parliament on this issue.
0:52:58 > 0:53:00And I'm absolutely confident the government
0:53:00 > 0:53:02is going to continue to fund the armed services
0:53:02 > 0:53:07in the way they have to be.
0:53:07 > 0:53:09It is a crucial part of our commitment to defending this
0:53:09 > 0:53:16country.
0:53:16 > 0:53:19Unlike the Labour Party, who have a leader who thinks it
0:53:19 > 0:53:22might be a good idea to disband the Armed Forces, we totally support
0:53:22 > 0:53:23them.
0:53:23 > 0:53:24Very cheap, isn't it, really.
0:53:24 > 0:53:27That is what Jeremy Corbyn has said in the past.
0:53:27 > 0:53:29And I think it is important we fund our armed services
0:53:29 > 0:53:30properly.
0:53:30 > 0:53:33Richard Walker.
0:53:33 > 0:53:34This spending review has been going on
0:53:34 > 0:53:41for a very long time now and I think Faiza made a really good point.
0:53:41 > 0:53:42It's the uncertainty for the servicemen
0:53:42 > 0:53:45and women and the families involved.
0:53:45 > 0:53:48So whatever the government decides to do, they think they need to
0:53:48 > 0:53:50decide quickly and be clear.
0:53:50 > 0:53:52For me, you know, being in this amazing
0:53:52 > 0:53:55building and seeing our heritage, we have some of the best
0:53:55 > 0:53:57Armed Forces in the world.
0:53:57 > 0:54:01And we need to keep investing in that.
0:54:01 > 0:54:04I think it would be a travesty if Whitehall were to
0:54:04 > 0:54:05cut away at our front line services.
0:54:05 > 0:54:06OK, the man up there.
0:54:06 > 0:54:08I'm a veteran of two armies.
0:54:08 > 0:54:10I'm a veteran of the British Army and the American army.
0:54:10 > 0:54:12I'm absolutely disgusted at successive governments, both Labour
0:54:12 > 0:54:15and the Conservatives, and their cuts to the defence budget.
0:54:15 > 0:54:23I agree that...
0:54:26 > 0:54:29With the lady on the end there, but there is...
0:54:29 > 0:54:30We are changing, the world is changing.
0:54:30 > 0:54:33There is no need for a massive standing army any more.
0:54:33 > 0:54:35However I can't understand why we're going to
0:54:35 > 0:54:38spend so much money on Trident when the threats seem to be coming
0:54:38 > 0:54:40from smaller terrorist groups, independent countries, things like
0:54:40 > 0:54:41that.
0:54:41 > 0:54:47Why is that?
0:54:47 > 0:54:51You, sir, in the middle at the back.
0:54:51 > 0:54:52Over to you.
0:54:52 > 0:55:00The man at the very back in blue, yes.
0:55:00 > 0:55:03As an ex serving member of the armed services,
0:55:03 > 0:55:05I also agree that we should not invest in Trident.
0:55:05 > 0:55:07We've got, we can test the relationship we
0:55:07 > 0:55:10have with the United States and an attack on one in Nato
0:55:10 > 0:55:12is an attack on all, so let's just not put the
0:55:12 > 0:55:16money to Trident and let's let our Big Brother help us out if we need
0:55:16 > 0:55:17that.
0:55:17 > 0:55:18You, sir, in the centre.
0:55:18 > 0:55:20We talk about funding the armed services.
0:55:20 > 0:55:23Why is it when Putin sails by we can only send out a minesweeper?
0:55:23 > 0:55:25OK, you want to come in.
0:55:25 > 0:55:28Yes.
0:55:28 > 0:55:30I think it's very disingenuous to talk about
0:55:30 > 0:55:33percentage of GDP when you're just about to crater the economy through
0:55:33 > 0:55:36Brexit and that percentage is going to be a much smaller number.
0:55:36 > 0:55:40APPLAUSE OK, we didn't do Brexit tonight.
0:55:40 > 0:55:42We do Brexit most weeks.
0:55:42 > 0:55:43We didn't do Brexit tonight.
0:55:43 > 0:55:44We're coming to the end.
0:55:44 > 0:55:46Shame.
0:55:46 > 0:55:47Shame.
0:55:47 > 0:55:49Let's just...
0:55:49 > 0:55:51Occasionally, occasionally, even though all the ministers are out
0:55:51 > 0:55:59there talking, we have to take a break from it.
0:56:00 > 0:56:01Let's just
0:56:01 > 0:56:05have a last quick question from
0:56:05 > 0:56:06Robert Thomson.
0:56:06 > 0:56:08Are politicians incapable of answering questions or
0:56:08 > 0:56:09is it just my imagination?
0:56:09 > 0:56:10LAUGHTER APPLAUSE
0:56:10 > 0:56:12You've had quite a good display tonight.
0:56:12 > 0:56:13Let's go round.
0:56:13 > 0:56:16You start on it, Faiza.
0:56:16 > 0:56:21Yeah, I get frustrated as well with that and I have to say,
0:56:21 > 0:56:25one thing that they are also very good at is forgetting the history.
0:56:25 > 0:56:28And I think one of the things I've heard today from hearing teachers
0:56:28 > 0:56:30and military people, is the cuts, the big
0:56:30 > 0:56:31cuts that we've had in the
0:56:31 > 0:56:34last seven - eight years that are affecting all people working in
0:56:34 > 0:56:36public services, and the way that Theresa
0:56:36 > 0:56:37and Camilla even went on
0:56:37 > 0:56:39tonight is as if those things didn't happen.
0:56:39 > 0:56:42Those people in the city, bankers in the city have got it as
0:56:42 > 0:56:43good as they've ever had it.
0:56:43 > 0:56:46And yet we are still suffering the impact of
0:56:46 > 0:56:47the financial crisis ten years on.
0:56:47 > 0:56:49And we cannot let them forget that.
0:56:49 > 0:56:51OK.
0:56:51 > 0:56:53APPLAUSE It wasn't quite the question, you've
0:56:53 > 0:56:55taken up most of the time we've got left.
0:56:55 > 0:56:57Very briefly.
0:56:57 > 0:56:59Politicians of course are experts at not answering
0:56:59 > 0:57:00the question.
0:57:00 > 0:57:03And as a businessman I would say this, but more straight
0:57:03 > 0:57:04talking is what is required.
0:57:04 > 0:57:05Camilla?
0:57:05 > 0:57:09Quickly if you would.
0:57:09 > 0:57:12I just, if you're going to attack me,
0:57:12 > 0:57:15I'm going to have to slightly defend myself.
0:57:15 > 0:57:17I don't think at any point in this programme I suggested that
0:57:17 > 0:57:19there haven't been any cuts.
0:57:19 > 0:57:21Local government is suffering enormously.
0:57:21 > 0:57:24There's been an enormous numbers of cuts the coalition had to make.
0:57:24 > 0:57:31They inherited a deficit.
0:57:31 > 0:57:33The question is, are politicians incapable of
0:57:33 > 0:57:34answering...
0:57:34 > 0:57:35I'm sorry, but, you know.
0:57:35 > 0:57:36All right.
0:57:36 > 0:57:38Sorry, politicians, really great politicians to answer
0:57:38 > 0:57:41the question, and they defuse it with humour and they get to the
0:57:41 > 0:57:42heart of it.
0:57:42 > 0:57:44And there are a few great politicians, and maybe one of
0:57:44 > 0:57:47them's sitting next to me, I don't know, David.
0:57:47 > 0:57:48Both of them sitting next to me.
0:57:48 > 0:57:50They'll have to be very, very quick.
0:57:50 > 0:57:51Theresa.
0:57:51 > 0:57:52No.
0:57:52 > 0:57:54And we are capable of answering questions.
0:57:54 > 0:57:55David?
0:57:55 > 0:57:57We don't answer enough questions honestly, that's the
0:57:57 > 0:57:58truth, across the board.
0:57:58 > 0:57:59OK.
0:57:59 > 0:58:05APPLAUSE OK.
0:58:05 > 0:58:06More questions, more questions next week,
0:58:06 > 0:58:07then, because time's up
0:58:07 > 0:58:08here.
0:58:08 > 0:58:09Uttoxeter next week.
0:58:09 > 0:58:11Chairman of the Conservative Party, Brandon
0:58:11 > 0:58:14Lewis, the boss of Siemens is going to be on the programme.
0:58:14 > 0:58:15John Prescott for Labour.
0:58:15 > 0:58:16Week after that, Blackpool.
0:58:16 > 0:58:18With Ken Clarke, Diane Abbott and Nigel Farage.
0:58:18 > 0:58:23BOOINGThat's a great one!
0:58:23 > 0:58:26That's an end of the pier show for you in
0:58:26 > 0:58:27Blackpool.
0:58:27 > 0:58:27Call...
0:58:27 > 0:58:30Call...
0:58:30 > 0:58:32If you'd like to be in the audience.
0:58:32 > 0:58:34Or you can go to the Question Time website.
0:58:34 > 0:58:35The address is there.
0:58:35 > 0:58:37You just follow the instructions.
0:58:37 > 0:58:40As always now, if you want to have a say in what we've
0:58:40 > 0:58:41been talking about, Question Time extra
0:58:41 > 0:58:43time is on BBC 5 Live on
0:58:43 > 0:58:44the radio.
0:58:44 > 0:58:46And you can watch it on the BBC iPlayer.
0:58:46 > 0:58:49My thanks to our panel and to all of you who came to
0:58:49 > 0:58:50this wonderful location tonight.
0:58:50 > 0:58:52Until next Thursday, from Yeovil or Yeovilton,
0:58:52 > 0:58:53however you like to look at
0:58:53 > 0:59:01it, from Question Time, good night.