0:00:05 > 0:00:08Tonight we are at the JCB factory near Uttoxeter,
0:00:08 > 0:00:11and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:19 > 0:00:21And with me on the panel tonight, the new chairman
0:00:21 > 0:00:23of the Conservative Party, once Immigration Minister,
0:00:23 > 0:00:25Brandon Lewis.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28The former Labour MP and Deputy Prime Minister under
0:00:28 > 0:00:31Tony Blair, now in the House of Lords, John Prescott.
0:00:31 > 0:00:34The political editor and columnist for the Sunday
0:00:34 > 0:00:37express, Camilla Tominey.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39The writer and activist from Novara Media, who says
0:00:39 > 0:00:45she wants "luxury communism now", Ash Sarkar.
0:00:45 > 0:00:49And born in Germany but brought up in Leeds, the UK Chief Executive
0:00:49 > 0:00:56of the global manufacturing firm Siemens, Juergen Maier.
0:01:07 > 0:01:08Right, thank you very much.
0:01:08 > 0:01:12Remember, at home, as always, if you want to get in on this debate
0:01:12 > 0:01:16and have your own say, #BBCQT, and via Twitter
0:01:16 > 0:01:20and Facebook you can do that.
0:01:20 > 0:01:23I should just say we are here at JCB and many of our audience work
0:01:23 > 0:01:26on this site, this vast place, so we may get relevant
0:01:26 > 0:01:29comments about that.
0:01:29 > 0:01:32Let's take our first question tonight, and this one comes
0:01:32 > 0:01:36from Kevin Abbott, please.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39When are the right wing media and Tories going to realise lies
0:01:39 > 0:01:44and smears against Comrade Corbyn no longer work?
0:01:44 > 0:01:50APPLAUSE
0:01:50 > 0:01:52Ash Sarkar.
0:01:52 > 0:01:54I mean, it's quite sad, really.
0:01:54 > 0:01:56They know that they've lost the argument when it comes
0:01:56 > 0:01:58to economic policy and social policy, so the Conservatives
0:01:58 > 0:02:03are reduced to cantering after half baked hit pieces,
0:02:03 > 0:02:06which once upon a time would have gone largely unremarked on.
0:02:06 > 0:02:10I don't think that they are going to get it, that politics has
0:02:10 > 0:02:12changed in this country, because that means listening
0:02:12 > 0:02:15to people and actually meeting some of their real concerns.
0:02:15 > 0:02:19One of the things that really worries me, as someone
0:02:19 > 0:02:23who works in the media, is that this botched
0:02:23 > 0:02:26smear operation about, is Jeremy Corbyn a Czech spy,
0:02:26 > 0:02:30does he rappel down buildings and trade state
0:02:30 > 0:02:34secrets, or what have you, is that it was based on a single
0:02:34 > 0:02:39source who lacked credibility and was basically a fantasist.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42This really should not have made it past any quality news room.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45So I think one of the things that we need to make sure
0:02:45 > 0:02:49we are doing is rather than frame this as how do we protect Corbyn
0:02:49 > 0:02:52from smears, is look at how do we make sure our press is held
0:02:52 > 0:02:56to the very highest standards, so it can effectively carry
0:02:56 > 0:03:00out its function of speaking truth to power and holding
0:03:00 > 0:03:02politicians to account.
0:03:02 > 0:03:10APPLAUSE
0:03:10 > 0:03:12Brandon Lewis, you are chairman of the Conservative Party.
0:03:12 > 0:03:16It was your current Defence Secretary, Gavin Williamson,
0:03:16 > 0:03:18who said that Corbyn met foreign spies,
0:03:18 > 0:03:22"that was a betrayal of this country, he cannot be trusted".
0:03:22 > 0:03:25Do you agree with what Williamson said?
0:03:25 > 0:03:27Well, I think Gavin and others actually have raised
0:03:27 > 0:03:29a legitimate point.
0:03:29 > 0:03:32If you look over a long period of time, and I'm talking decades,
0:03:32 > 0:03:36about people that the leader of the Labour Party has met
0:03:36 > 0:03:39and spent time with and been involved with, I think it does
0:03:39 > 0:03:41actually raise legitimate questions.
0:03:41 > 0:03:43I'm slightly surprised actually, if you look at Corbyn himself,
0:03:43 > 0:03:47why he hasn't just dealt with this and been transparent about what has
0:03:47 > 0:03:48happened and what he's done.
0:03:48 > 0:03:49I find that very odd.
0:03:49 > 0:03:51But coming to the point of the gentleman's key
0:03:51 > 0:03:54question about the press, the end part of what Ash
0:03:54 > 0:03:55was saying, I agree with.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58I think one of the absolute bedrocks of our society,
0:03:58 > 0:04:00of a free and open democracy, is having a free press.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03And what we do have in our press is, right across the press,
0:04:03 > 0:04:06is people who have opinions from different areas,
0:04:06 > 0:04:07different newspapers, different media outlets,
0:04:07 > 0:04:10and challenging us in the way you have done with your question
0:04:10 > 0:04:13and others will later on today, as politicians, to be able to deal
0:04:13 > 0:04:15with and answer that.
0:04:15 > 0:04:17And I think having a free press...
0:04:17 > 0:04:20And one of the things I found quite shocking was this kind of inference
0:04:20 > 0:04:23we saw yesterday from Labour, that if you ask difficult questions,
0:04:23 > 0:04:25and I think the phrase was "change is coming",
0:04:25 > 0:04:28which kind of infers you'll be shut down.
0:04:28 > 0:04:29We need a free press.
0:04:29 > 0:04:32We need a press to be able to ask those questions
0:04:32 > 0:04:34and challenge politicians and people in public life more generally.
0:04:34 > 0:04:37And do you stand by your fellow minister's remark that Corbyn cannot
0:04:37 > 0:04:40be trusted and he has betrayed this country?
0:04:40 > 0:04:43I actually go wider than that.
0:04:43 > 0:04:46I actually think if you look at, as I've said, what Corbyn has stood
0:04:46 > 0:04:49for, things he has said, things he has voted for,
0:04:49 > 0:04:51things he's voted against over the years, I don't trust him
0:04:51 > 0:04:54to lead our country and I don't trust the Labour Party
0:04:54 > 0:04:56with our economy and our country more generally.
0:04:56 > 0:05:01APPLAUSE
0:05:01 > 0:05:03I'll come to you in a moment.
0:05:03 > 0:05:04John Prescott.
0:05:04 > 0:05:05Terrible statement he just made.
0:05:05 > 0:05:10Look, I've been 50 years in Parliament and I have to say this
0:05:10 > 0:05:17is the dirtiest slur I've seen against any individual politician.
0:05:17 > 0:05:22I've known Jeremy all the time he's been in Parliament and I have
0:05:22 > 0:05:26to say he's an honest man who states principles.
0:05:26 > 0:05:29Might not be agreeable to you, but has become the elected leader
0:05:29 > 0:05:31of the Labour Party.
0:05:31 > 0:05:35For them now to start saying things like he is a betrayer,
0:05:35 > 0:05:39that in fact he now has acted as a double agent,
0:05:39 > 0:05:43a Kim Philby type.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46What annoys me most is that basically you, Brandon,
0:05:46 > 0:05:49was the one that came in office a couple of weeks ago,
0:05:49 > 0:05:52and I have the statement here so it's not fake news,
0:05:52 > 0:05:55it's your statement, which says a new respect pledge
0:05:55 > 0:05:58for Tory candidates.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00And what it says here, "Conservative candidates will be
0:06:00 > 0:06:05suspended if they insult rivals", the new party chairman says.
0:06:05 > 0:06:06Fine, that was the statement.
0:06:06 > 0:06:09I was hopeful that that might be so.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12But now you've got top people in the Tory party lined up with,
0:06:12 > 0:06:17lined up by the papers themselves, the right wing papers, to say that
0:06:17 > 0:06:20he's a traitor, a double agent.
0:06:20 > 0:06:22This is unacceptable.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25Now I want to say that your vice-chairman, who you appointed,
0:06:25 > 0:06:31made these statements about him,
0:06:31 > 0:06:34was selling British secrets to Communist spies.
0:06:34 > 0:06:36My God, there's no evidence for that.
0:06:36 > 0:06:39Nobody's produced any evidence.
0:06:39 > 0:06:43Will you now, under this new programme of better moral
0:06:43 > 0:06:46standards, will you now sack your vice-chairman who said
0:06:46 > 0:06:49those things without evidence?
0:06:49 > 0:06:51If you want to know, have a look.
0:06:51 > 0:06:55APPLAUSE
0:06:55 > 0:06:59Do you want to reply to that?
0:06:59 > 0:07:01Absolutely.
0:07:01 > 0:07:04John's right, I made very clear a few weeks ago that we should
0:07:04 > 0:07:05have a respect pledge.
0:07:05 > 0:07:07I'm absolutely shocked that the Labour Party
0:07:07 > 0:07:09is refusing to engage and set its own respect pledge.
0:07:09 > 0:07:11That's because it's had the policy for years, Brandon.
0:07:11 > 0:07:16If I can just finish.
0:07:16 > 0:07:18There is a very big difference between having a proper,
0:07:18 > 0:07:21robust debate about what people stand for, what they have said,
0:07:21 > 0:07:23what they have done and have been transparent about that,
0:07:23 > 0:07:26and personal abuse and calling for physical abuse of candidates,
0:07:26 > 0:07:28MPs or people in the general public, which we are seeing
0:07:28 > 0:07:31from the hard left and even from the Shadow Chancellor
0:07:31 > 0:07:33of the Labour Party, endorsing, repeating comments like that is not
0:07:33 > 0:07:36fit in British politics and Labour need to call that out
0:07:36 > 0:07:37and deal with it, John.
0:07:37 > 0:07:40And until they do, I'm afraid it's shocking we've got the Labour Party
0:07:40 > 0:07:41that won't stand-up...
0:07:41 > 0:07:43This isn't about spies, it's about lies.
0:07:43 > 0:07:48You should answer that.
0:07:48 > 0:07:52A number of people with hands up and then I will come to you.
0:07:52 > 0:07:53Yes, you in the middle there.
0:07:53 > 0:07:55You're going on about free press and factual information
0:07:55 > 0:07:56and everything and the facts.
0:07:56 > 0:07:59Why are the government trying, with the child maintenance service
0:07:59 > 0:08:02and child support agency, trying to block everything out
0:08:02 > 0:08:05that's going on in the country now?
0:08:05 > 0:08:08It's affected thousands of people across the country.
0:08:08 > 0:08:11There's free press, there is evidence and they are leaving
0:08:11 > 0:08:13people in poverty, homeless.
0:08:13 > 0:08:14The suicides.
0:08:14 > 0:08:15There's no account for that.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17And most of all, it's affecting the children,
0:08:17 > 0:08:18which is never in the press.
0:08:18 > 0:08:19All right.
0:08:19 > 0:08:22OK, let's stick with the Corbyn point, the original question.
0:08:22 > 0:08:25Out there, you, yes.
0:08:25 > 0:08:29I think Jeremy Corbyn has built mistrust himself by lying
0:08:29 > 0:08:32to students in the belief that they will get free
0:08:32 > 0:08:34tuition in the last election and reneging
0:08:34 > 0:08:38on his manifesto promises.
0:08:38 > 0:08:39OK.
0:08:39 > 0:08:40Camilla Tominey.
0:08:40 > 0:08:44APPLAUSE
0:08:44 > 0:08:47I'm not sure Labour have got a leg to stand on on respect
0:08:47 > 0:08:49when you have the Shadow Chancellor
0:08:49 > 0:08:53John McDonnell calling for Esther McVey to be lynched.
0:08:53 > 0:08:56That's not gentler, kinder politics.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58As for the worst smear ever, I would imagine that some
0:08:58 > 0:09:01of Tom Watson's smears that were exacerbated by believing
0:09:01 > 0:09:04in a fantasist called Nick, which suggested that a number
0:09:04 > 0:09:07of Tory MPs were paedophiles, is probably a little more serious
0:09:07 > 0:09:10than what's been levelled against Jeremy Corbyn,
0:09:10 > 0:09:15a man who has a history of being friends with our enemies.
0:09:15 > 0:09:19If it had been a Tory MP who files had been discovered had been
0:09:19 > 0:09:22fraternising with a Czech spy, a Czech diplomat, the Labour Party
0:09:22 > 0:09:24would have been all over it like a rash.
0:09:24 > 0:09:34It's absolutely hypocritical to suggest that you would not
0:09:34 > 0:09:36have engaged in some sort of investigation.
0:09:36 > 0:09:38The press is certainly entitled to investigate claims which appear
0:09:38 > 0:09:41to be in the public interest, as are Jeremy Corbyn's meetings
0:09:41 > 0:09:42with Irish paramilitaries, Jeremy Corbyn's meetings
0:09:42 > 0:09:44with Hamas, Jeremy Corbyn's meetings with Hezbollah.
0:09:44 > 0:09:45The list goes on.
0:09:45 > 0:09:48At any given time, this man has got a pattern of behaviour of meeting
0:09:48 > 0:09:50with people that others wouldn't even contemplate sitting
0:09:50 > 0:09:52down at the table with.
0:09:52 > 0:09:58APPLAUSE
0:09:58 > 0:10:01It was a one-way conversation, John.
0:10:01 > 0:10:03Blimey, the Express.
0:10:03 > 0:10:04The Sunday Express.
0:10:04 > 0:10:05Blimey, Labour.
0:10:05 > 0:10:09Blimey, Momentum.
0:10:09 > 0:10:12Let me go to Juergen Maier.
0:10:12 > 0:10:14Just one correction to what you said.
0:10:14 > 0:10:16John McDonnell didn't actually ask for anybody to be lynched.
0:10:16 > 0:10:20He reported what had been said, which was slightly different.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22Hang on a second, he did say...
0:10:22 > 0:10:23You've made the legal point.
0:10:23 > 0:10:25He's appeared in speeches where he suggested...
0:10:25 > 0:10:28Suggested, not said.
0:10:28 > 0:10:30He said direct action should be taken against Tories,
0:10:30 > 0:10:34wherever they are, direct action.
0:10:34 > 0:10:35That's a democratic right to protest.
0:10:35 > 0:10:37That's part of a healthy, functioning democracy, Camilla,
0:10:37 > 0:10:40I hate to break it to you.
0:10:40 > 0:10:42I'm sorry.
0:10:42 > 0:10:46In a democratic society, what we do is we have meaningful debates.
0:10:46 > 0:10:48And we have the right to protest and assembly.
0:10:48 > 0:10:50By making out that anyone with Tory ideas is scum.
0:10:50 > 0:10:52And that's what Momentum does.
0:10:52 > 0:10:56Hang on a second.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58Let's try and have a meaningful debate.
0:10:58 > 0:11:01Which doesn't mean people telling each other they should be ashamed
0:11:01 > 0:11:03of each other at this stage in the programme.
0:11:03 > 0:11:04Juergen.
0:11:04 > 0:11:07Well, what I definitely agree with is that we absolutely need
0:11:07 > 0:11:14to protect the free press and the freedom of speech.
0:11:14 > 0:11:17Hear hear.
0:11:17 > 0:11:21And I do believe there is danger in just dismissing
0:11:21 > 0:11:24everything as fake news.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27However, having said that, I think there is also a point
0:11:27 > 0:11:29where we do need responsible news.
0:11:29 > 0:11:33And my view on this particular issue, and I know there has been
0:11:33 > 0:11:34some other issues that weren't in the question
0:11:34 > 0:11:38about meetings with some other, let's say unsavoury characters,
0:11:38 > 0:11:41Hezbollah or whatever, but this particular issue,
0:11:41 > 0:11:45there doesn't seem to be a lot of legs in it.
0:11:45 > 0:11:50And what I would say, it probably is best we just sort of calm down.
0:11:50 > 0:11:54What I would rather do is to judge Jeremy Corbyn and the Prime Minister
0:11:54 > 0:11:58in terms of what the policies are now and what they are going
0:11:58 > 0:12:00to do going forward, rather than looking back
0:12:00 > 0:12:01over the years.
0:12:01 > 0:12:08APPLAUSE
0:12:08 > 0:12:10There was a comment from Jeremy Corbyn about this
0:12:10 > 0:12:12where he said that the coverage shows how worried
0:12:12 > 0:12:14the media bosses are.
0:12:14 > 0:12:16They are right to be.
0:12:16 > 0:12:18"We've got news for the billionaire tax exile press barons.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20Change is coming".
0:12:20 > 0:12:23Does that worry you, if you are in favour of a free
0:12:23 > 0:12:26press, or do you think it would be a good idea if we didn't
0:12:26 > 0:12:28have our press owned by foreign billionaires?
0:12:28 > 0:12:29Or billionaires residing outside the UK?
0:12:29 > 0:12:35Well, look, having billions and that being overseas doesn't
0:12:35 > 0:12:36worry me personally at all.
0:12:36 > 0:12:37I have a very good conscience.
0:12:37 > 0:12:41What, you've got your billions here, you mean?
0:12:41 > 0:12:45But look, at the end of the day it's less
0:12:45 > 0:12:47about the ownership of the press.
0:12:47 > 0:12:50What is important is that we have a responsible
0:12:50 > 0:12:55and a balanced press which is giving us free speech and giving us
0:12:55 > 0:12:58the information that we need to make the right sorts of judgments.
0:12:58 > 0:13:00And we need less of fake news.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02I will come to you, Ash, in a second.
0:13:02 > 0:13:04But the man in spectacles.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07Yeah, I didn't really know anything about the story but I came across it
0:13:07 > 0:13:09on Facebook and it made me look into it.
0:13:09 > 0:13:13And I saw the Jeremy Corbyn Facebook address.
0:13:13 > 0:13:18One of his basics within that was that the free press is an absolutely
0:13:18 > 0:13:23essential part of democracy and needs to be protected.
0:13:23 > 0:13:26And even within your quote there, and Brandon Lewis is inferring it
0:13:26 > 0:13:29as well, is that Jeremy Corbyn is attacking free press.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32He is doing nothing of the sort.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35He is saying that change is going to come because the people
0:13:35 > 0:13:38want something different.
0:13:38 > 0:13:40He's not saying an attack on free press.
0:13:40 > 0:13:44APPLAUSE
0:13:44 > 0:13:46The woman up their at the very back.
0:13:46 > 0:13:49Yes, you.
0:13:49 > 0:13:51The free press should be applauded and revered,
0:13:51 > 0:13:52but they shouldn't tell lies.
0:13:52 > 0:13:59And it does absolutely no good whatsoever when fake news,
0:13:59 > 0:14:05to quote the American President, is trumpeted all over the press
0:14:05 > 0:14:10and certain people believe in it.
0:14:10 > 0:14:18A little like the fallacy that Labour is no good with money.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21Gordon Brown's...
0:14:21 > 0:14:26Gordon Brown's schedule to get us out of the recession
0:14:26 > 0:14:32was covered by a lot of the other emerging countries.
0:14:32 > 0:14:37They got out of the recession many years before we did.
0:14:37 > 0:14:41If we had carried on with Gordon Brown's policy,
0:14:41 > 0:14:43we would have been out of the recession years ago.
0:14:43 > 0:14:49And we wouldn't be in the situation...
0:14:49 > 0:14:50Hang on a second.
0:14:50 > 0:14:53Wait, wait, we're talking about the press.
0:14:53 > 0:14:54Otherwise we'll have John Prescott arguing
0:14:54 > 0:14:56about what Gordon Brown did.
0:14:56 > 0:14:59We don't want to do that, we're on about the press.
0:14:59 > 0:15:01I want to take a point about the press.
0:15:01 > 0:15:04You, sir, then I will come to you, Ash, and we will
0:15:04 > 0:15:05move on.
0:15:05 > 0:15:06Yes...
0:15:06 > 0:15:09I actually think Camilla's hit the nail on the head
0:15:09 > 0:15:10there.
0:15:10 > 0:15:11With Jeremy Corbyn, whether this story
0:15:11 > 0:15:13is true or not, there is
0:15:13 > 0:15:14a bigger point here.
0:15:14 > 0:15:15And that is, Corbyn is a potential Prime
0:15:15 > 0:15:19Minister.
0:15:19 > 0:15:27I as a voter want to know more about our potential Prime
0:15:29 > 0:15:32Minister, what his views have been over the years, what his views are
0:15:32 > 0:15:35now, who he has met.
0:15:55 > 0:15:57I know his supporters don't think it's
0:15:57 > 0:16:00important, but for me as a voter, because he could be the prime
0:16:00 > 0:16:02minister next time, I think it's very important and very relevant.
0:16:02 > 0:16:03OK, Ash.
0:16:03 > 0:16:06Do you agree with what he's just said, that everything should be
0:16:06 > 0:16:08above board and shown in public and discussed?
0:16:08 > 0:16:11I agree entirely that transparency over policy is of prime
0:16:11 > 0:16:13importance in politics, and that is what we've
0:16:13 > 0:16:15been saying for ages - lets talk policy and move away from
0:16:15 > 0:16:17these personal smears.
0:16:17 > 0:16:18I was quite alarmed that you inferred that
0:16:18 > 0:16:22Jeremy Corbyn meant the free press should be shut down when he said
0:16:22 > 0:16:23change is coming.
0:16:23 > 0:16:25He's not saying that, he saying, let's take a
0:16:25 > 0:16:27careful look at the collusion of vested interests between press
0:16:27 > 0:16:30barons and the Tory Party, and try and unpick those interests.
0:16:30 > 0:16:33And what's more, if you want to talk about shutting down a free press, I
0:16:33 > 0:16:36would encourage you to look at your own party's history, in particular,
0:16:36 > 0:16:38when David Cameron sent his Cabinet Secretary
0:16:38 > 0:16:41to the Guardian and said, a lot of people would like
0:16:41 > 0:16:43to see you shut down, because of their coverage
0:16:43 > 0:16:44of the Snowden files.
0:16:44 > 0:16:47I wonder where your outrage was when GCHQ made the
0:16:47 > 0:16:49Guardian destroy laptops and hard drives as part of their coverage of
0:16:49 > 0:16:50he Snowden files.
0:16:50 > 0:16:51That's investigative journalism, speaking
0:16:51 > 0:16:56truth to power, and you guys were silent on it.
0:16:56 > 0:17:00All right.
0:17:00 > 0:17:02You bear in mind, when the gentleman there said,
0:17:02 > 0:17:05talking about what Camilla said before, when you have a free debate,
0:17:05 > 0:17:07you talk to a lot of people.
0:17:07 > 0:17:08Jeremy chooses who he speaks to.
0:17:08 > 0:17:10But you know, Whitelaw, the Tory deputy
0:17:10 > 0:17:13prime minister, was talking to the IRA, as was John Major,
0:17:13 > 0:17:16privately and secretly, because they wanted to
0:17:16 > 0:17:19get an agreement.
0:17:19 > 0:17:22I think the agreement we've got with Ireland now
0:17:22 > 0:17:25is quite critical and came out of those kind of discussions.
0:17:25 > 0:17:28The whole attention becomes Labour, not
0:17:28 > 0:17:32Whitelaw or Major.
0:17:32 > 0:17:33All right, thank you.
0:17:33 > 0:17:37I'm sorry, we've got to move on, because we're ten, 15 minutes
0:17:37 > 0:17:40in.
0:17:40 > 0:17:47Before we do, Blackpool - we're going to be in Blackpool next
0:17:53 > 0:17:56On the screen are the details of how to apply, and I'll give them
0:17:56 > 0:17:59again, as always, at the end, and I'll take a question now
0:17:59 > 0:18:00from Dan Lear, please.
0:18:00 > 0:18:02Speaking from personal experience, graduates are finding it
0:18:02 > 0:18:04harder to get graduate level jobs once they do graduate.
0:18:04 > 0:18:08Is charging £9,000 a year justified?
0:18:08 > 0:18:12In other words, is it worth going to university at all?
0:18:12 > 0:18:13If they're charging £9,000.
0:18:13 > 0:18:14All right, John Prescott?
0:18:14 > 0:18:15This whole business of...
0:18:15 > 0:18:18We had a statement this week about 18 plus,
0:18:18 > 0:18:21about the education money and how it is used, but in reality,
0:18:21 > 0:18:22the actual debts that have totalled up for
0:18:22 > 0:18:24those graduates to get them is impossible.
0:18:24 > 0:18:27More than that, many of them are not paying it and won't pay
0:18:27 > 0:18:30it, so you really have to ask yourselves, was it worthwhile?
0:18:30 > 0:18:32And Labour brought in the first charges,
0:18:32 > 0:18:35had a disagreement, because I belong to the graduate tax was a better way
0:18:35 > 0:18:36of doing it.
0:18:36 > 0:18:37But it went from 3000 to
0:18:37 > 0:18:40nearly 9000, and now you've got massive debts which they can't
0:18:40 > 0:18:41afford.
0:18:41 > 0:18:43Many being put off to go to the universities.
0:18:43 > 0:18:45And really, you've got to get a more realistic
0:18:45 > 0:18:47assessment about the distribution on education.
0:18:47 > 0:18:49I was 25 before I went to education, a mature grounds.
0:18:49 > 0:18:52I could not have done it with two children
0:18:52 > 0:18:54without a mature student's grant, which meant you were over 25.
0:18:54 > 0:18:55They have been rubbished altogether.
0:18:55 > 0:18:58There are 100,000 left in part-time work and university.
0:18:58 > 0:18:59Greater priority should be given to that,
0:18:59 > 0:19:03because they are the very skills that those who failed like me when
0:19:03 > 0:19:05they had the test at the 11 plus can come back
0:19:05 > 0:19:06later into education and
0:19:06 > 0:19:09are afraid the cuts have not hundreds of thousands of them out of
0:19:09 > 0:19:17the possibility, so it's more than just the grant for the students.
0:19:17 > 0:19:24Juergen...
0:19:26 > 0:19:29We recruit a lot of graduates and indeed apprentices here in the UK,
0:19:29 > 0:19:32and our experience is that the graduate we recruit are pretty
0:19:32 > 0:19:34excellent.
0:19:34 > 0:19:36I think we have brilliant British universities, high-class
0:19:36 > 0:19:38universities, but at the end of the day, that
0:19:38 > 0:19:42does all need paid for.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45This is a discussion which is happening not just
0:19:45 > 0:19:47here in the UK but everywhere.
0:19:47 > 0:19:53I personally think we have come up with quite a good
0:19:53 > 0:19:56system, which is that there is a payment of tuition fees.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58However, it is not paid back until graduates are
0:19:58 > 0:20:03in a position to be earning higher salaries.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06And that actually seems quite fair to me that those who are
0:20:06 > 0:20:09earning higher salaries end up paying a little bit back for the
0:20:09 > 0:20:12education that they have had.
0:20:12 > 0:20:14I do think there are some small things we
0:20:14 > 0:20:16could tweak - interest rates seem to be a bit high
0:20:16 > 0:20:17on the student loans.
0:20:17 > 0:20:22I do think there is an opportunity to bring back maintenance grants to
0:20:22 > 0:20:26help the people who are less well off and to help them on the ladder
0:20:26 > 0:20:27of going to university.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29But all in all, I think it's a pretty fair
0:20:29 > 0:20:30system.
0:20:30 > 0:20:33And when the Prime Minister says, as she did this week, that
0:20:33 > 0:20:35it's the most expensive system of university
0:20:35 > 0:20:36tuition in the world, or
0:20:36 > 0:20:38one of them, you think that's a price worth
0:20:38 > 0:20:40paying for what we get?
0:20:40 > 0:20:43I think it is, on the basis that the graduates only pay back
0:20:43 > 0:20:48the money once you are earning above a threshold.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51If I may just add one other point, I do think we might be
0:20:51 > 0:20:53having the wrong debate.
0:20:53 > 0:20:56I don't think the issue in the UK is our
0:20:56 > 0:20:57higher education system.
0:20:57 > 0:20:59I think it is great.
0:20:59 > 0:21:02I think where we need to put much more focus and support is
0:21:02 > 0:21:09on apprenticeships, vocational training.
0:21:09 > 0:21:14And the key issue is, what we have is a level of educational
0:21:14 > 0:21:20snobbery.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23And what we have to do is to say, look, graduate education,
0:21:23 > 0:21:25brilliant - it's going to cost you some money.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27Apprenticeship, also brilliant, and it's absolutely on a
0:21:27 > 0:21:28par.
0:21:28 > 0:21:33Both of them, we need to lift the standards.
0:21:33 > 0:21:41What's your take on that, Dan?
0:21:42 > 0:21:45I'd say, even though you don't pay back until you are earning
0:21:45 > 0:21:53the higher amount, you do have that hanging over you.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58Even if you don't get to pay the full amount back
0:21:58 > 0:22:01because you don't earn enough, that debt is still there over your head
0:22:01 > 0:22:02at all times.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05Even though you only pay after 25,000 earnings at £9 in
0:22:05 > 0:22:06100, I think.
0:22:06 > 0:22:08Something like that.
0:22:08 > 0:22:12What do you think up there?
0:22:12 > 0:22:17Let's hear from some more people.
0:22:17 > 0:22:18From the woman there.
0:22:18 > 0:22:19Yes, you first.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21I graduated in 2013.
0:22:21 > 0:22:22I was fortunate enough to pay £3500 a
0:22:22 > 0:22:23year.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25I don't think it was worth that.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27I certainly don't think it's worth £9,000 a year.
0:22:27 > 0:22:28£3500 wasn't worth it?
0:22:28 > 0:22:29What happened to you?
0:22:29 > 0:22:31I became successful, but I thought the
0:22:31 > 0:22:33quality of teaching, I thought the university itself,
0:22:33 > 0:22:34it just wasn't worth the money.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37Sorry to be rude, but what did you go on to do after
0:22:37 > 0:22:38you'd been to university?
0:22:38 > 0:22:40An account manager at n-power currently.
0:22:40 > 0:22:42I feel as though I have progressed quite
0:22:42 > 0:22:43well with my degree.
0:22:43 > 0:22:45But in terms of the subject itself, I think there
0:22:45 > 0:22:48has to be a bit more of a balance going through sixth form.
0:22:48 > 0:22:50I was very much streamlined into university, so
0:22:50 > 0:22:52I completely agree with what Juergen was saying.
0:22:52 > 0:22:54There was no real option other than university, being
0:22:54 > 0:22:56encouraged there, so I think...
0:22:56 > 0:22:57OK, and the woman there.
0:22:57 > 0:22:59Yes.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01It's approximately 15% of people will pay
0:23:01 > 0:23:09back their entire student loan, so once we just creating
0:23:09 > 0:23:12back their entire student loan, --so aren't we just creating
0:23:12 > 0:23:13a problem for the future?
0:23:13 > 0:23:15Plus, the starting wage for a lot of graduate jobs is
0:23:15 > 0:23:18actually less than the £25,000, when people start paying.
0:23:18 > 0:23:20So, a nurse, a teacher, they all earn less than
0:23:20 > 0:23:23that on their starting wage, so to become a graduate doesn't
0:23:23 > 0:23:24automatically mean that you're going to get
0:23:24 > 0:23:26a better paid job, and even
0:23:26 > 0:23:29if you do, only a very small percentage of those people will
0:23:29 > 0:23:36actually end up paying the money.
0:23:36 > 0:23:38You mean, it's painful for the taxpayer in the end but
0:23:38 > 0:23:39not for the person?
0:23:39 > 0:23:40In the long-term, yeah.
0:23:40 > 0:23:42Do you agree with that?
0:23:42 > 0:23:44I think that if you axe tuition fees altogether there's an
0:23:44 > 0:23:47argument that you're going to put the cost burden onto nongraduates,
0:23:47 > 0:23:50and they might earn less over the course of their career anyway.
0:23:50 > 0:23:52I do think that we are a bit too obsessed
0:23:52 > 0:23:53with university.
0:23:53 > 0:23:58In certain sectors of society, it's as if roads only
0:23:58 > 0:23:59lead to PPE at Oxford.
0:23:59 > 0:24:01I know a great many more people who are
0:24:01 > 0:24:04successful in life who haven't gone to Oxbridge or a similar university.
0:24:04 > 0:24:06And equally, I think perhaps careers advice
0:24:06 > 0:24:08could be better in schools so
0:24:08 > 0:24:09that children aren't always channelled into university first.
0:24:09 > 0:24:12Why don't more employers think a bit more creatively, and instead of
0:24:12 > 0:24:14having this minimum, you must have a degree,
0:24:14 > 0:24:22broaden their horizons?
0:24:22 > 0:24:25There are nondegree, or nonacademic, kids out there that have a great
0:24:25 > 0:24:26deal to offer.
0:24:26 > 0:24:28Grant Thornton, I think, did a great experiment where
0:24:28 > 0:24:32they cut the minimum for having graduates,
0:24:32 > 0:24:33and lo and behold, of the
0:24:33 > 0:24:34nongraduates that came through, a great many
0:24:34 > 0:24:36of them really thrived in
0:24:36 > 0:24:37their top performance band.
0:24:37 > 0:24:40So actually, I think we need to...
0:24:40 > 0:24:43APPLAUSE
0:24:43 > 0:24:44Move away from our university
0:24:44 > 0:24:45obsession.
0:24:45 > 0:24:46OK, Ash.
0:24:46 > 0:24:48Look, I entirely agree that we shouldn't have
0:24:48 > 0:24:50nongraduates bearing the burden for the cost of university.
0:24:50 > 0:24:53That's why I think we need to close tax
0:24:53 > 0:24:55loopholes, I think we need to reverse planned reductions to
0:24:55 > 0:24:57capital gains and corporation tax and have those corporations which
0:24:57 > 0:25:00benefit from an educated workforce putting in some money to make sure
0:25:00 > 0:25:08that happens.
0:25:10 > 0:25:13introduction of 9K fees is a 0.5% year on year increase in the
0:25:13 > 0:25:14dropout rate.
0:25:14 > 0:25:16So you've got 6% of students who don't make it from
0:25:16 > 0:25:18first year to second year.
0:25:18 > 0:25:20For one of my sins, I also moonlight as a
0:25:20 > 0:25:21lecturer.
0:25:21 > 0:25:24In that context, where you've got students who are really
0:25:24 > 0:25:28struggling to pay the everyday costs of their living, they are anxious
0:25:28 > 0:25:31because of mounting debt, and also they are being taught by people.
0:25:31 > 0:25:34I'm really sorry that you had such a poor experience of teaching.
0:25:34 > 0:25:36But they are being taught by people like
0:25:36 > 0:25:39myself, who, in some cases, don't even have a pension, or are having
0:25:39 > 0:25:42their pensions raided by management.
0:25:42 > 0:25:44You can't provide a good standard of education
0:25:44 > 0:25:47in those settings, so what
0:25:47 > 0:25:49we need to do is also restructure universities internally.
0:25:49 > 0:25:51It's not right that some lecturers end up
0:25:51 > 0:25:53making roughly minimum wage while vice
0:25:53 > 0:25:55chancellors' pay blossoms to in
0:25:55 > 0:25:56some cases over £300,000 per year.
0:25:56 > 0:25:58That's ridiculous.
0:25:58 > 0:26:01OK, the man up there at the very back.
0:26:01 > 0:26:04We have a lot of men with hands up and not
0:26:04 > 0:26:05very many women.
0:26:05 > 0:26:06I don't know why.
0:26:06 > 0:26:10You, yes, sir.
0:26:10 > 0:26:12I was going to say that when it comes to university
0:26:12 > 0:26:15degrees, I think there should be a lot more joined up thinking
0:26:15 > 0:26:17between what universities offer and what
0:26:17 > 0:26:19business and industry want in terms of professionals, professional
0:26:19 > 0:26:22degrees.
0:26:22 > 0:26:25I can only speak for science.
0:26:25 > 0:26:28I think it's a shame when I see science graduates and their
0:26:28 > 0:26:30first job is in a coffee shop.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33It's a shame.
0:26:33 > 0:26:35I think the universities, with the tuition fees, they've
0:26:35 > 0:26:38turned themselves into businesses.
0:26:38 > 0:26:41They are interested in getting money in, and when a science graduate
0:26:41 > 0:26:46comes out, job done.
0:26:46 > 0:26:49Universities are wealthy but there hasn't been
0:26:49 > 0:26:50enough joined up thinking between the degrees
0:26:50 > 0:26:53and what the country needs.
0:26:53 > 0:27:00APPLAUSE
0:27:00 > 0:27:05I agree with a number of the
0:27:05 > 0:27:06points that have been made, actually, particularly
0:27:06 > 0:27:07around the core point
0:27:07 > 0:27:08around the university fees.
0:27:08 > 0:27:10I'm having the experience, I have a
0:27:10 > 0:27:12son who is looking at what he might be
0:27:12 > 0:27:13doing it university, and the
0:27:13 > 0:27:16point I've been making to him and some of his friends is,
0:27:16 > 0:27:18I think it is important that students looking
0:27:18 > 0:27:21at university should act as consumers and look at what they are
0:27:21 > 0:27:24getting in terms of where they will go, and what they will study.
0:27:24 > 0:27:26It comes back to the gentleman's point
0:27:26 > 0:27:29around exactly what you want to do after your degree and what
0:27:29 > 0:27:31universities going to work for you in terms
0:27:31 > 0:27:32of the career you want to
0:27:32 > 0:27:40have to make sure you get good value for money.
0:27:40 > 0:27:42For the scheme overall, we have one that means our
0:27:42 > 0:27:44universities are well funded, they are providing
0:27:44 > 0:27:45excellent education.
0:27:45 > 0:27:46We are the envy of the world.
0:27:46 > 0:27:48Even today, we've seen again international students growing.
0:27:48 > 0:27:51That's a good thing, and again, it highlights along with more
0:27:51 > 0:27:53and more students from this country from all
0:27:53 > 0:27:54backgrounds, including deprived backgrounds,
0:27:54 > 0:27:56more and more going to university, but I also think there
0:28:01 > 0:28:04is a really important point that Juergen and a few people have made
0:28:04 > 0:28:07this evening, which is exactly what is outlined in the review
0:28:07 > 0:28:08is that the Prime Minister outlined this
0:28:08 > 0:28:09week.
0:28:09 > 0:28:11It's not just looking at the university fees
0:28:11 > 0:28:12and whether that is right.
0:28:12 > 0:28:16I think we've got a system that has worked, and it's right that
0:28:16 > 0:28:19we look now at what happens in the next five and ten years and learn
0:28:19 > 0:28:21from the last few years.
0:28:21 > 0:28:22But also looking beyond university, exactly
0:28:22 > 0:28:24that point around apprenticeships and people going into vocational
0:28:24 > 0:28:27skills, whether it's in a business like the one we are in or Siemens
0:28:27 > 0:28:28or anywhere else.
0:28:28 > 0:28:30Actually, there are some phenomenal opportunities
0:28:30 > 0:28:32and some hugely successful people who didn't go to universities, and
0:28:32 > 0:28:35actually giving people that opportunity through T Levels, they
0:28:35 > 0:28:38are coming forward, and other things, to look at what is right for
0:28:38 > 0:28:40them to have the best career and the most fulfilling life
0:28:40 > 0:28:41when they go forward.
0:28:41 > 0:28:44And is it your plan to keep university fees at 9250
0:28:44 > 0:28:47as they are at the moment, or would you like to see
0:28:47 > 0:28:49them cut, should I say before the next election?
0:28:49 > 0:28:51Well, we've got this review.
0:28:51 > 0:28:53I'm not going to prejudge the review but independent experts will sit
0:28:53 > 0:28:56on that review which will report back later this year,
0:28:56 > 0:28:58that's looking both at universities, including the fees and the rate
0:28:58 > 0:29:00and everything else, but also at T levels
0:29:00 > 0:29:03and vocational skills, because I think we do need to do
0:29:03 > 0:29:06better as a country at making people aware of what the opportunities
0:29:06 > 0:29:07are for vocational work as well.
0:29:07 > 0:29:09Let's go on because time is against us.
0:29:09 > 0:29:11Peter Wilmot, let's have your question, please.
0:29:11 > 0:29:12Is the proposed transition period just a cynical
0:29:12 > 0:29:14attempt to stop Brexit?
0:29:14 > 0:29:18Brexit rears its head!
0:29:18 > 0:29:21The two-year transition you're talking about, Peter, yes?
0:29:21 > 0:29:25Is it a cynical attempt to stop Brexit?
0:29:25 > 0:29:28I won't come to you, Brandon, because you were just talking.
0:29:28 > 0:29:29Juergen, you start on this one.
0:29:29 > 0:29:36Well, I think whichever side of the argument you are on,
0:29:36 > 0:29:39or were on, one thing that I think we are agreeing on more and more
0:29:39 > 0:29:44is the fact that getting the right deal for Brexit is turning out to be
0:29:44 > 0:29:51hugely more complex than I think we had all anticipated.
0:29:51 > 0:29:55And look, I'm not arguing here for, you know, we've made
0:29:55 > 0:29:58the wrong decision.
0:29:58 > 0:30:00I was clear the day the country voted to leave the EU,
0:30:00 > 0:30:06we are leaving the EU.
0:30:06 > 0:30:09What we are now talking about is how do we leave the EU.
0:30:09 > 0:30:12And that is a massive, massive complex issue and a very
0:30:12 > 0:30:14difficult negotiation.
0:30:14 > 0:30:19And to me, it seems that there is one key argument, and that is,
0:30:19 > 0:30:23you've got that one side of the extreme, we basically
0:30:23 > 0:30:25have a very sort of EU-lite, and we stay very close
0:30:25 > 0:30:28to as it is today.
0:30:28 > 0:30:31That, by the way, I don't hide at all, is the position that
0:30:31 > 0:30:34I would prefer to take, as a businessman in the UK.
0:30:34 > 0:30:38But I've accepted that that is probably not
0:30:38 > 0:30:39what the British people voted for.
0:30:39 > 0:30:42The British people voted for something which gives us
0:30:42 > 0:30:45a little bit more sovereignty, which means that we can take back
0:30:45 > 0:30:47a little bit more control.
0:30:47 > 0:30:49And it means that we restrict free movement of people.
0:30:49 > 0:30:51I've accepted that.
0:30:51 > 0:30:53Do you have any idea where it's going?
0:30:53 > 0:30:55Well, having said that, what I don't accept is that there
0:30:55 > 0:30:59is utopia at the other end of the extreme, which is that we can
0:30:59 > 0:31:02crash out, we can go on WTO rules and we can trade with the rest
0:31:02 > 0:31:06of the world.
0:31:06 > 0:31:08I just don't accept that situation, because I think whilst that
0:31:08 > 0:31:13will give you more sovereignty, we would be trading economic upside.
0:31:13 > 0:31:14We would be worse off.
0:31:14 > 0:31:17So I think, to come back to your question there,
0:31:17 > 0:31:18we need middle ground.
0:31:18 > 0:31:21We need middle ground, a sensible Brexit which is good
0:31:21 > 0:31:24for business, keeps economy, but gives us some more sovereignty.
0:31:24 > 0:31:30But that, Peter, is exactly what you are objecting to, isn't it?
0:31:30 > 0:31:34I hear what you say and I entirely accept that we need a good deal.
0:31:34 > 0:31:39But I also believe that the EU needs a good deal, too, and they don't
0:31:39 > 0:31:41seem to be offering anything.
0:31:41 > 0:31:42The ball's in our court.
0:31:42 > 0:31:47APPLAUSE
0:31:47 > 0:31:50And I'd don't see why.
0:31:50 > 0:31:53But my point is, if I may just come back, is that the better way to get
0:31:53 > 0:31:56the deal is to go for something that is middle ground.
0:31:56 > 0:31:59The way to not get the deal is to say we're going to crash out,
0:31:59 > 0:32:00it's going to be...
0:32:00 > 0:32:03Because at the end of the day we do need to stay friendly
0:32:03 > 0:32:07with our neighbours.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10And the best way to do that is to have a sensible
0:32:10 > 0:32:11negotiated position.
0:32:11 > 0:32:12I'll come back to you.
0:32:12 > 0:32:15Let me just go around the table for a bit.
0:32:15 > 0:32:16Camilla.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19I think it's a mischaracterisation to call it a transition period.
0:32:19 > 0:32:22It's meant to be an implementation period.
0:32:22 > 0:32:25It's meant to be the period in which we implement, practically,
0:32:25 > 0:32:27Brexit, and that means setting up new channels
0:32:27 > 0:32:30at Heathrow and all the other different practical implications.
0:32:30 > 0:32:34I think if the EU is trying to keep us in Brexit in name only,
0:32:34 > 0:32:38so-called Brino, then that is wrong.
0:32:38 > 0:32:41That is not what the Leavers voted for.
0:32:41 > 0:32:45Equally, I think if the EU is trying to prohibit us from forging
0:32:45 > 0:32:47new trade deals with other countries during that period, then again
0:32:47 > 0:32:50that's not what we voted for.
0:32:50 > 0:32:52Of course it's in the EU.
0:32:52 > 0:32:56And when I talk about the EU I mean the political Brussels zealots
0:32:56 > 0:32:59who absolutely don't want to give us a deal which could make us
0:32:59 > 0:33:03thrive more than them and be more competitive.
0:33:03 > 0:33:04That's one thing.
0:33:04 > 0:33:06But I think if you go around Europe and actually
0:33:06 > 0:33:08speak to European people, and particularly businesses,
0:33:08 > 0:33:10they agree with the British.
0:33:10 > 0:33:12They want a free trade deal.
0:33:12 > 0:33:18Why wouldn't they?
0:33:18 > 0:33:22APPLAUSE
0:33:22 > 0:33:24John Prescott.
0:33:24 > 0:33:27I fought in the 1975 election to keep out of the EU,
0:33:27 > 0:33:33or the Common Market as it was then, because I thought it was going to be
0:33:33 > 0:33:37the United States of Europe, a kind of state which I didn't believe in.
0:33:37 > 0:33:38I lost.
0:33:38 > 0:33:43In this one, I fought to remain and to stay in, and I lost.
0:33:43 > 0:33:45And that is one of the difficulties.
0:33:45 > 0:33:48And this week we've seen that red bus weeks ago going around saying
0:33:48 > 0:33:53£350 million would come each day to the NHS.
0:33:53 > 0:33:56And I think it's the same bus by different people was going around
0:33:56 > 0:34:00saying it's going to cost us a billion.
0:34:00 > 0:34:04The reality is, it is difficult to know the full consequences.
0:34:04 > 0:34:05It's complicated.
0:34:05 > 0:34:06But the issues are clear.
0:34:06 > 0:34:08Get out, or stay in.
0:34:08 > 0:34:10Now, they are clear positions.
0:34:10 > 0:34:13The trouble is the government doesn't know what it wants to do.
0:34:13 > 0:34:14It is disunited.
0:34:14 > 0:34:18It can't give a united position.
0:34:18 > 0:34:20Does Labour know what it wants to do?
0:34:20 > 0:34:21No.
0:34:21 > 0:34:24Have you got a problem?
0:34:24 > 0:34:26No, I'm saying Labour doesn't know what it wants to do.
0:34:26 > 0:34:29Are you saying that, or shall I explain it?
0:34:29 > 0:34:30OK, please try.
0:34:30 > 0:34:32But you're coming to an opinion before you hear me?
0:34:32 > 0:34:34Well, I think most people's opinion is that Labour...
0:34:34 > 0:34:35That's the Sunday Express!
0:34:35 > 0:34:36APPLAUSE
0:34:36 > 0:34:42Labour's position has been a bit sketchy.
0:34:42 > 0:34:43Let me answer it.
0:34:43 > 0:34:44You obviously don't understand it.
0:34:44 > 0:34:47What we did say, and I didn't like the idea, that basically
0:34:47 > 0:34:49we recognise the public opinion to come out.
0:34:49 > 0:34:52And then we got a lot of trouble for supporting the government
0:34:52 > 0:34:55when it came to that section 50, and we said that's what
0:34:55 > 0:34:56the people have spoken.
0:34:56 > 0:34:58We don't want to be defying the people.
0:34:58 > 0:35:02But we have a clear opinion that whatever you negotiate,
0:35:02 > 0:35:04we have certain red lines.
0:35:04 > 0:35:09One of them is, we want to still be trading with the European Community,
0:35:09 > 0:35:15that we want, therefore, the tariff business to be controlled.
0:35:15 > 0:35:17That's definite for our industry.
0:35:17 > 0:35:20And some conditions about free movement.
0:35:20 > 0:35:25But we cannot give you the full position until the government
0:35:25 > 0:35:26negotiate what the final deal is.
0:35:26 > 0:35:29Then we reserve the right to say, and we forced it in Parliament,
0:35:29 > 0:35:31Parliament will make a decision.
0:35:31 > 0:35:33That's what we've agreed, but they've got to make up
0:35:33 > 0:35:36their mind what they are asking for.
0:35:36 > 0:35:39And when I hear people saying to me, well, the government is disunited,
0:35:39 > 0:35:42not in unity, of course that's true.
0:35:42 > 0:35:46But if you're a negotiator and you're leaving and you don't
0:35:46 > 0:35:49know what you want to leave for, don't be surprised if Europe looks
0:35:49 > 0:35:52aghast at us that we are all over the shop and we don't know
0:35:52 > 0:35:53what we want.
0:35:53 > 0:36:00APPLAUSE
0:36:00 > 0:36:01And according to press reports...
0:36:01 > 0:36:04Which paper?
0:36:04 > 0:36:08Well, I think leaked by Jeremy Corbyn's staff.
0:36:08 > 0:36:15On Monday, Labour is going to come out in favour of remaining
0:36:15 > 0:36:16in the customs union.
0:36:16 > 0:36:17Had you heard that?
0:36:17 > 0:36:20I've read it a few times, as you must have done.
0:36:20 > 0:36:21Do you believe it?
0:36:21 > 0:36:24I believe that there is a role for the customs union, yes.
0:36:24 > 0:36:25That is one of the options.
0:36:25 > 0:36:29That is what they are discussing at Chequers today.
0:36:29 > 0:36:31They say they don't want customs union.
0:36:31 > 0:36:33If we say you're not going to have an agreement with them,
0:36:33 > 0:36:36then you'll have total failure.
0:36:36 > 0:36:38What would be the worst of all things would be
0:36:38 > 0:36:40to have total failure, pull out, we're not
0:36:40 > 0:36:41prepared to do that.
0:36:41 > 0:36:44And if the customs union is one of the areas you can find agreement,
0:36:44 > 0:36:47and it meets our conditions that we want, yes, I'm
0:36:47 > 0:36:48sure we'll consider it.
0:36:48 > 0:36:51Don't believe everything you read in the press.
0:36:51 > 0:36:52Brandon Lewis.
0:36:52 > 0:36:59Well, I found John's contribution fascinating, because I do
0:36:59 > 0:37:00think there is confusion.
0:37:00 > 0:37:03Not least of all because just today John McDonnell has opened the door
0:37:03 > 0:37:05to a second referendum, something Diane Abbott
0:37:05 > 0:37:06has argued for as well.
0:37:06 > 0:37:09So I think we do need to be clear Labour really do not
0:37:09 > 0:37:10have a set position.
0:37:10 > 0:37:13But to come back to the question that Peter directly asked...
0:37:13 > 0:37:14What about staying in the customs union?
0:37:14 > 0:37:17I was going to come back to the very question that Peter asked
0:37:17 > 0:37:18initially about this.
0:37:18 > 0:37:21I think the short answer is no, as Camilla rightly outlined.
0:37:21 > 0:37:24That implementation period is not just to allow businesses to prepare
0:37:24 > 0:37:26for what that final end state will be.
0:37:26 > 0:37:27There is work to do.
0:37:27 > 0:37:28As someone who has been Immigration Minister
0:37:28 > 0:37:31until just a few weeks ago, to make sure we've got
0:37:31 > 0:37:34the systems in place, not least of all to process not just
0:37:34 > 0:37:36the European citizens, almost 3.5 million who will now have
0:37:36 > 0:37:39settled status here, but a million Brits abroad.
0:37:39 > 0:37:43All of that kind of work has to be done in a way that is good
0:37:43 > 0:37:45for people and business as well, so it's smooth and it works.
0:37:45 > 0:37:47I think that's what that's about.
0:37:47 > 0:37:51But we have been very clear from the very beginning.
0:37:51 > 0:37:54The Prime Minister has been absolutely crystal clear on this.
0:37:54 > 0:37:55We are leaving the European Union.
0:37:55 > 0:37:58We are going to leave the customs union, we will
0:37:58 > 0:37:59leave the single market.
0:37:59 > 0:38:01And today some of my colleagues from the subcommittee
0:38:01 > 0:38:03of the Cabinet have been meeting, as John said, at Chequers,
0:38:03 > 0:38:07going through various sectors, talking about various sectors,
0:38:07 > 0:38:09agriculture, automotives, the digital economy,
0:38:09 > 0:38:11and the Prime Minister going through our future
0:38:11 > 0:38:14economic relationship.
0:38:14 > 0:38:18And I can say to you that the outcome of those discussions
0:38:18 > 0:38:20will come to Cabinet in the next few days.
0:38:20 > 0:38:23And late next week the Prime Minister will make a statement,
0:38:23 > 0:38:25make a speech and outline what that position is.
0:38:25 > 0:38:26Which everybody agrees in the Cabinet?
0:38:26 > 0:38:27Absolutely, yes.
0:38:27 > 0:38:29So no more letter writing?
0:38:29 > 0:38:31I'll wait to see that one!
0:38:31 > 0:38:33The woman there in the third row from the back.
0:38:33 > 0:38:34Yes, you.
0:38:34 > 0:38:37I think the transition period is good, and the reason is,
0:38:37 > 0:38:41from now to the 29th of March 2019 there is 280 working days.
0:38:41 > 0:38:43And when you start to look at the number of policies
0:38:43 > 0:38:47and procedures which the government have to run through to make Brexit
0:38:47 > 0:38:50a success, whether it's the aircraft that fly in our sky,
0:38:50 > 0:38:53which is governed by EASA, whether it's the trade of animals
0:38:53 > 0:38:57that move through our ports at Calais, you look at an example
0:38:57 > 0:39:00this week of a fast food supply who changed its distributor,
0:39:00 > 0:39:01and look at the problems that's caused.
0:39:01 > 0:39:04These are fantastically complicated things we've got to solve,
0:39:04 > 0:39:07and I think we need that period of time to complete it successfully.
0:39:07 > 0:39:10You mean KFC is an object lesson for the British economy?
0:39:10 > 0:39:17APPLAUSE
0:39:17 > 0:39:18Yes, the person there.
0:39:18 > 0:39:19Yes, you.
0:39:19 > 0:39:21There's this preoccupation that time's running out for us.
0:39:21 > 0:39:25Is there concern that the time is running out for French farmers,
0:39:25 > 0:39:27for German car manufacturers?
0:39:27 > 0:39:31APPLAUSE
0:39:31 > 0:39:34For Spanish tourist resorts?
0:39:34 > 0:39:37And last of all, is time running out for the Italian politicians who've
0:39:37 > 0:39:42got a debt that makes ours look like Toytown, and also they've got
0:39:42 > 0:39:46elections coming up and youth unemployment of 60%?
0:39:46 > 0:39:49You talk about time running out.
0:39:49 > 0:39:51Do you think time is running out for this government,
0:39:51 > 0:39:53or are you happy with the way things are going?
0:39:53 > 0:39:55Happy with the way that things are going.
0:39:55 > 0:39:56Ash.
0:39:56 > 0:39:59I really appreciate an apocalyptic tone.
0:39:59 > 0:40:00It feels very dramatic.
0:40:00 > 0:40:04I would say that a lot of this bellicose tone of "they need us
0:40:04 > 0:40:09more than we need them", I'm afraid sounds quite deluded.
0:40:09 > 0:40:14We're in a context where crashing out on WTO terms would mean a 13%
0:40:14 > 0:40:20dip in growth for this region that we are in right now.
0:40:20 > 0:40:23Just recently we had farmers appeal to Michael Gove because there
0:40:23 > 0:40:26is an agricultural staffing crisis.
0:40:26 > 0:40:29Now, I'm not going to say that remaining in the EU
0:40:29 > 0:40:30would solve all those problems.
0:40:30 > 0:40:31I don't think it would.
0:40:31 > 0:40:33I think it means we need more robust discussions
0:40:33 > 0:40:35on what kind of Brexit we want.
0:40:35 > 0:40:38I think preserving the customs union is essential to protecting
0:40:38 > 0:40:40the perishable goods trade.
0:40:40 > 0:40:43I think we need guarantees from this Tory government that it
0:40:43 > 0:40:46will protect British Steel.
0:40:46 > 0:40:49British Steel is very vulnerable.
0:40:49 > 0:40:52We need commitments that it's not just going to be a bankers' Brexit
0:40:52 > 0:40:55which rips up workers' rights for the many and preserves the
0:40:55 > 0:40:57privilege and the power of the few.
0:40:57 > 0:40:58Those are my priorities as a voter.
0:40:58 > 0:41:02And I'd like to see some concrete commitment to those things.
0:41:02 > 0:41:08APPLAUSE
0:41:08 > 0:41:11I see an arm in the air, black and red.
0:41:11 > 0:41:13Yes, you, madam.
0:41:13 > 0:41:17What I'd like to say is that the point everybody's
0:41:17 > 0:41:20missing is that the EU don't want to give us a good deal,
0:41:20 > 0:41:22because everybody else will want to leave.
0:41:22 > 0:41:26And that is the Italians want to leave.
0:41:26 > 0:41:28I know the Dutch want to leave.
0:41:28 > 0:41:30There's quite a few different countries want to leave.
0:41:30 > 0:41:34So Mr Juncker, all he wants to do is be awkward.
0:41:34 > 0:41:39It was obvious with David Cameron what he hit before we had
0:41:39 > 0:41:43Theresa May, and she started off by saying we'll have no deal,
0:41:43 > 0:41:45it's better than a bad deal.
0:41:45 > 0:41:48Now, I think they are playing games a bit.
0:41:48 > 0:41:50They are the ones that are prolonging it.
0:41:50 > 0:41:54And it's not really getting anywhere.
0:41:54 > 0:41:57And the idea is we voted to leave and we voted to leave
0:41:57 > 0:42:01because we don't want the immigration going as it is.
0:42:01 > 0:42:03We want all these things addressing.
0:42:03 > 0:42:07But the problem is, I don't think they want to give us a deal.
0:42:07 > 0:42:11They are the ones that are dragging their feet more than we are.
0:42:11 > 0:42:13I would like to challenge that.
0:42:13 > 0:42:18Which bit do you want to challenge?
0:42:18 > 0:42:21The "they don't want to give us a deal" bit.
0:42:21 > 0:42:24But she also says everybody wants to leave anyway.
0:42:24 > 0:42:25Which is also not true.
0:42:25 > 0:42:27I don't agree.
0:42:27 > 0:42:29I don't think you did say that, did you?
0:42:29 > 0:42:32I said that there's a few countries that would like to leave
0:42:32 > 0:42:35and they are using this as an example to put them off.
0:42:35 > 0:42:38You actually talk to people in those countries.
0:42:38 > 0:42:42When they actually joined the EU, it went up by an awful amount.
0:42:42 > 0:42:44They actually used it to increase prices.
0:42:44 > 0:42:47And I know that because I've been to some of those countries
0:42:47 > 0:42:49and witnessed it, OK.
0:42:49 > 0:42:51And I've got family that live in those countries as well.
0:42:51 > 0:42:54Well, look, I've spent a lot of time living
0:42:54 > 0:42:56and working in those countries.
0:42:56 > 0:42:58But that's your opinion, isn't it?
0:42:58 > 0:43:03And I really don't speak to anybody who is out to punish the UK.
0:43:03 > 0:43:06So you think they are being very cooperative then?
0:43:06 > 0:43:08Well, look, at the end of the day...
0:43:08 > 0:43:11They are not, though, are they?
0:43:11 > 0:43:13They want to know what we want.
0:43:13 > 0:43:15They didn't want us to leave, you know.
0:43:15 > 0:43:17They are basically saying, look, we're terribly sorry but actually
0:43:17 > 0:43:22it is in our interest that we remain friends at the end of this,
0:43:22 > 0:43:27and definitely it's in our interest that we remain...
0:43:27 > 0:43:30But it's not about remaining friends, it's about them giving us a
0:43:30 > 0:43:31deal.
0:43:31 > 0:43:33It is, and we need to remain trading.
0:43:33 > 0:43:41That is really my point.
0:43:43 > 0:43:46I also want to say to the other gentleman's point that what this
0:43:46 > 0:43:49whole argument is proving is that the whole thing is so complicated,
0:43:49 > 0:43:51we haven't yet worked out what the actual
0:43:51 > 0:43:52best way to leave is, so the
0:43:52 > 0:43:55transition deal is absolutely essential to just buy ours that time
0:43:55 > 0:43:58to calm down a little bit, look at the facts in terms
0:43:58 > 0:44:01of what is best for us, what is for the other side,
0:44:01 > 0:44:03and my gut feeling is, in the end, we will come
0:44:03 > 0:44:05down and we will find a
0:44:05 > 0:44:06sensible agreement that keeps us trading.
0:44:06 > 0:44:08I wouldn't rule out the customs union.
0:44:08 > 0:44:11I don't think it's the customs union, I think it's a
0:44:11 > 0:44:12slightly different version of a customs
0:44:12 > 0:44:13union, but something that
0:44:13 > 0:44:15allows businesses like JCB and Siemens,
0:44:15 > 0:44:16but more importantly, the
0:44:16 > 0:44:19smaller companies, to be able to trade without tariffs.
0:44:19 > 0:44:21All right, a last point from you, sir.
0:44:21 > 0:44:29Briefly, if you would.
0:44:34 > 0:44:37Is it time that we stop calling it Brexit?
0:44:37 > 0:44:39The reason I say that is because if you take
0:44:39 > 0:44:41a constant and splice it
0:44:41 > 0:44:43together with a variable, you end up with a variable, and that's what
0:44:43 > 0:44:44Brexit is.
0:44:44 > 0:44:47The constant is independence, which is what we voted
0:44:47 > 0:44:48for, and the variable is the deal.
0:44:48 > 0:44:51Independence, you can't have a hard or soft independence, and we don't
0:44:51 > 0:44:56want some of our sovereignty back, we want all of our sovereignty back.
0:44:56 > 0:45:03APPLAUSE
0:45:03 > 0:45:07Let's move on.
0:45:07 > 0:45:09Libby Astbury, can we have your question, please?
0:45:09 > 0:45:11For how much longer will the world watched
0:45:11 > 0:45:13the war in Syria and allow so many people to die?
0:45:13 > 0:45:21APPLAUSE
0:45:21 > 0:45:25Ash...
0:45:25 > 0:45:28I think what we've seen in Syria is an unprecedented level
0:45:28 > 0:45:31of bloodshed and displacement, and I think the first thing
0:45:31 > 0:45:36that we can do as countries which are privileged to
0:45:36 > 0:45:38not be plunged into that kind of
0:45:38 > 0:45:41conflict is to accept more of those people who are displaced by
0:45:41 > 0:45:47conflict.
0:45:47 > 0:45:50I think we need to take a really good long hard look at how
0:45:50 > 0:45:52we treat refugees in this country.
0:45:52 > 0:45:54Just yesterday, 120 people at the Yarlswood Detention centre
0:45:54 > 0:45:56have gone on hunger strike for things as
0:45:56 > 0:45:58basic as health care, to have their cases heard
0:45:58 > 0:46:00by a judge, and to have sexual violence classified as
0:46:00 > 0:46:04torture.
0:46:04 > 0:46:06I know that you were immigration Minister for a long
0:46:06 > 0:46:09time, and I would like to ask you...
0:46:09 > 0:46:11Sorry, I'm going to interrupt you...
0:46:11 > 0:46:13What your views are on the acceptance of treatment of refugees
0:46:13 > 0:46:15in this country.
0:46:15 > 0:46:18All right, we may come to that, but can become to the
0:46:18 > 0:46:20war in Syria, which is what the question was about?
0:46:20 > 0:46:23I know you want to say that, or may want to say
0:46:23 > 0:46:26that, but what about the war in Syria, what should be done?
0:46:26 > 0:46:28So, I think the first commitment is to
0:46:28 > 0:46:29absorbing more refugees.
0:46:29 > 0:46:31I think the second commitment would have to be
0:46:31 > 0:46:33looking very carefully at Britain's arms dealing policies.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35I think that Britain's arms dealing policies have
0:46:35 > 0:46:38led to as much, as much as its own military
0:46:38 > 0:46:39interventions, has led to
0:46:39 > 0:46:41destabilisation of the middle east as a region.
0:46:41 > 0:46:43I think that those are two very concrete aims that we can
0:46:43 > 0:46:44pursue.
0:46:44 > 0:46:46I'll come to your point later.
0:46:46 > 0:46:52Camilla Tominey, do you think there's more or anything that this
0:46:52 > 0:46:54country can do, that others can do in Syria now?
0:46:54 > 0:46:56I suppose we've got a history of brokering
0:46:56 > 0:46:57peace.
0:46:57 > 0:47:01Is it our place to go and do that in the Middle East?
0:47:01 > 0:47:03I don't think anyone can look at any of the
0:47:03 > 0:47:06images that come out of Syria these days and not feel desperately sorry
0:47:06 > 0:47:08for what is a gargantuan human tragedy.
0:47:08 > 0:47:10And again, we always say after these horrific incidents,
0:47:10 > 0:47:11never again, never again.
0:47:11 > 0:47:13But equally, I think there's a sense as
0:47:13 > 0:47:16well that in terms of foreign policy, intervention hasn't been
0:47:16 > 0:47:17successful either, and bringing people
0:47:17 > 0:47:18together on both sides of the
0:47:18 > 0:47:24table doesn't seem to work.
0:47:24 > 0:47:27Obviously, there's been great gains against Daesh, and that should not
0:47:27 > 0:47:29be underestimated, but if you actually
0:47:29 > 0:47:31listen to the people on the
0:47:31 > 0:47:34ground, the absolute abject horror of what people are going through
0:47:34 > 0:47:36there, I think, to be perfectly honest,
0:47:36 > 0:47:38as we sit here cosily in
0:47:38 > 0:47:41Question Time, it's beyond the comprehension of most people.
0:47:41 > 0:47:42I disagree.
0:47:42 > 0:47:45I think Britain, by the way, is a very compassionate
0:47:45 > 0:47:46country.
0:47:46 > 0:47:48I think we've been very welcoming to asylum seekers.
0:47:48 > 0:47:49Our Government isn't.
0:47:49 > 0:47:51Well, I think the general public, generally, when
0:47:51 > 0:47:52there are these awful humanitarian crises,
0:47:52 > 0:47:54we dig deep, we try and
0:47:54 > 0:47:55donate, we empathise.
0:47:55 > 0:47:57No one in their right mind would turn around
0:47:57 > 0:48:03to children coming from Syria who are seeking asylum in this
0:48:03 > 0:48:05country and in this audience want to reject them.
0:48:05 > 0:48:08So actually, let's not be too down on Britain.
0:48:08 > 0:48:11I think Britain's been very open-handed.
0:48:11 > 0:48:13So why does our Government turn away child
0:48:13 > 0:48:14refugees?
0:48:14 > 0:48:16I agree, Britain is a tolerant country club at our
0:48:16 > 0:48:18Government policy does not match the public mood.
0:48:18 > 0:48:20Just make the point again, because people were
0:48:20 > 0:48:22applauding her point.
0:48:22 > 0:48:24Just make the point and then I'll put it
0:48:24 > 0:48:25to Brandon Lewis.
0:48:25 > 0:48:27I agree with you, I don't think that the British
0:48:27 > 0:48:31public looks at the plight of child refugees and wants to turn away, so
0:48:31 > 0:48:32why does our Government...
0:48:32 > 0:48:34Why does our Government insists that it's OK
0:48:34 > 0:48:36to continue to detain pregnant women, to split up families through
0:48:36 > 0:48:37deportation?
0:48:37 > 0:48:40This is my point, is that Government policy does not
0:48:40 > 0:48:44match the public mood, which I think is one of compassion.
0:48:44 > 0:48:49Brandon Lewis.
0:48:49 > 0:48:53I think it's important to be very clear about the fact ...
0:48:53 > 0:48:55Because Ashley has just said something
0:48:55 > 0:48:56that's completely wrong.
0:48:56 > 0:48:58We do not have refugees in detention centres.
0:48:58 > 0:48:59That is not how it works.
0:48:59 > 0:49:04The people in detention centres are people who
0:49:04 > 0:49:06are illegally in this country and are there
0:49:06 > 0:49:14for a period of time until
0:49:14 > 0:49:16they are going back to their home country.
0:49:16 > 0:49:17That's factually untrue.
0:49:17 > 0:49:18Ash...
0:49:18 > 0:49:21We as a country are doing one of the biggest
0:49:21 > 0:49:23programmes we have ever done, 23,000 refugees coming to this country.
0:49:23 > 0:49:25We are slightly ahead of the schedule
0:49:25 > 0:49:26that David Cameron set out.
0:49:26 > 0:49:29I've been fortunate in the period that I was
0:49:29 > 0:49:31immigration minister to meet a number of families who have come
0:49:31 > 0:49:34from Syria to listen to what they have come from,
0:49:34 > 0:49:35the experience they've had,
0:49:35 > 0:49:37the welcome they have had from local authorities,
0:49:37 > 0:49:38charities, community
0:49:38 > 0:49:39groups when they have come to this country.
0:49:39 > 0:49:42We should be very proud as a country not just
0:49:42 > 0:49:44of the billions of pounds we are
0:49:44 > 0:49:47spending in the region to do our bit, one of the biggest in the world
0:49:47 > 0:49:49and the biggest aid programme we have taken forward,
0:49:49 > 0:49:51and the second largest support in the world.
0:49:51 > 0:49:54Camilla said, and I think it's right, the welcome we give people in
0:49:54 > 0:49:57this country, and there are 23,000 Syrian refugees coming to this
0:49:57 > 0:49:59country, on top of refugees from elsewhere.
0:49:59 > 0:50:01We have a very strong programme for refugees, and what
0:50:01 > 0:50:03Ash has just outlined is a completely false
0:50:03 > 0:50:04statement about how the
0:50:04 > 0:50:06programme works.
0:50:06 > 0:50:08It's not true.
0:50:08 > 0:50:09Asylum seekers in Yarlswood...
0:50:09 > 0:50:13Asylum seekers are not refugees.
0:50:13 > 0:50:15APPLAUSE
0:50:15 > 0:50:17They are people have escaped
0:50:17 > 0:50:20conflict, escaped torture, sexual violence, and we continue to lock
0:50:20 > 0:50:21them up.
0:50:21 > 0:50:22No, no, that's wrong.
0:50:22 > 0:50:24Do you think that's a just policy?
0:50:24 > 0:50:27Do you think it's a just policy that 70% of detainees at Yarlswood who
0:50:27 > 0:50:28are female have experienced sexual violence?
0:50:28 > 0:50:30Do you think that's just?
0:50:30 > 0:50:32Ash, what you've just said is, again, wrong.
0:50:32 > 0:50:35That's a fact.
0:50:35 > 0:50:38Detention centres are for people who are being removed from the country,
0:50:38 > 0:50:41going back to their own country, who are in this country illegally.
0:50:41 > 0:50:42Asylum seekers...
0:50:42 > 0:50:44Who still have their cases under review.
0:50:44 > 0:50:45That's just a fact.
0:50:45 > 0:50:47Asylum seekers go through a different process.
0:50:47 > 0:50:49People who are here illegally are different
0:50:49 > 0:50:53to asylum seekers, which is different again from refugees.
0:50:53 > 0:50:55There are different processes, and you do
0:50:55 > 0:50:58a disservice to people, and hard working people across this country
0:50:58 > 0:51:00working in those facilities helping refugees and the refugees and asylum
0:51:00 > 0:51:03seekers themselves when you confuse the two things.
0:51:03 > 0:51:04Is that...
0:51:04 > 0:51:11Hold on, Ash.
0:51:11 > 0:51:11The person there.
0:51:11 > 0:51:12Yes...
0:51:12 > 0:51:15We talk about a skills crisis in this country, but when
0:51:15 > 0:51:18will the Government and companies do more to recruit people who are
0:51:18 > 0:51:19refugees..in this country who are
0:51:19 > 0:51:22engineers and skilled people?
0:51:22 > 0:51:25You make a very good point with that.
0:51:25 > 0:51:28There is a huge amount of work that goes on when refugees come here,
0:51:28 > 0:51:30making sure that they can learn English,
0:51:30 > 0:51:34get to a trade in this country, and as I say, I have met a lot of
0:51:34 > 0:51:36refugees who have been through that, play
0:51:36 > 0:51:37a hugely important part in
0:51:37 > 0:51:39their communities and in the economy of this country.
0:51:39 > 0:51:42That's why I say, we should be proud as a country of
0:51:42 > 0:51:45what we do for refugees and we should continue to do it.
0:51:45 > 0:51:48Libby, what do you think should be done?
0:51:48 > 0:51:49You asked the question.
0:51:49 > 0:51:51Well, my question wasn't really coming from
0:51:51 > 0:51:53the point of refugees as such, it's the people
0:51:53 > 0:51:54who can't get out of the
0:51:54 > 0:51:55country.
0:51:55 > 0:51:59And I'm sure the refugees would rather like to stay in Syria
0:51:59 > 0:52:01than come over here, because that's their home,
0:52:01 > 0:52:06and I just don't see how we've seen so many attacks like just
0:52:06 > 0:52:09recently on eastern Ghouta go on, where there's hospitals who don't
0:52:09 > 0:52:13have anything, and the UN are just there saying, we need to end the
0:52:13 > 0:52:14war.
0:52:14 > 0:52:16It needs to be ended but no one's really
0:52:16 > 0:52:17doing much about it, in
0:52:17 > 0:52:20my opinion, and I was just wondering why that is still the case.
0:52:20 > 0:52:23John Prescott?
0:52:23 > 0:52:26Well, I'm deeply saddened to listen to the fact that we all
0:52:26 > 0:52:29admit nothing more can be done.
0:52:29 > 0:52:32There are problems about refugees etc.
0:52:32 > 0:52:36But when I turn on that television and see those kids dying,
0:52:36 > 0:52:38it's being done deliberately as part of a war policy.
0:52:38 > 0:52:41That makes him, Assad, a man who has to be dealt
0:52:41 > 0:52:43with when it comes.
0:52:43 > 0:52:47It doesn't help negotiations, of course.
0:52:47 > 0:52:49Please negotiate with him, we'll come to a
0:52:49 > 0:52:50deal, stop this.
0:52:50 > 0:52:53He's not going to say, if I do that, will you take me
0:52:53 > 0:52:57to the international court?
0:52:57 > 0:52:58These are the difficulties.
0:52:58 > 0:52:59My concern goes before that.
0:52:59 > 0:53:02It takes me back to Iraq, arguing with Tony Blair about
0:53:02 > 0:53:05whether we should have regime dismissal, that's what it's about
0:53:05 > 0:53:06here.
0:53:06 > 0:53:08If you look what Nato and Western countries have been doing,
0:53:08 > 0:53:11particularly in the Middle East, we've made war between religions, we
0:53:11 > 0:53:14intervened to say our values are superior so we're going to remove
0:53:14 > 0:53:17you from the actual administration and control.
0:53:17 > 0:53:20There's a fundamental issue here.
0:53:20 > 0:53:23The UN can't do anything.
0:53:23 > 0:53:25They talk about whether a veto would stop anything,
0:53:25 > 0:53:31whether it is American or Trump.
0:53:31 > 0:53:35Trump basically and Putin, they are global powers
0:53:35 > 0:53:37who are now doing many things that prevent dealing with the Syrians
0:53:37 > 0:53:41properly.
0:53:41 > 0:53:43The Russians are actively involved, the Americans are prepared
0:53:43 > 0:53:44to bomb.
0:53:44 > 0:53:50We are actually sending in bombs, basically, by this new
0:53:50 > 0:53:52automatic business, I can't remember the name of the damn weapons.
0:53:52 > 0:53:53Drones.
0:53:53 > 0:53:54And they use the drones.
0:53:54 > 0:53:57Someone in Kent is actually doing it now, as if
0:53:57 > 0:53:58they were playing a game.
0:53:58 > 0:54:00We've got to get out of that situation, and
0:54:00 > 0:54:02we've got to recognise, it's not a popular view,
0:54:02 > 0:54:04you can read about the
0:54:04 > 0:54:05Crusades.
0:54:05 > 0:54:08We are doing the same thing now, and we're paying a very
0:54:08 > 0:54:09heavy price for it.
0:54:09 > 0:54:12Not us in the studios today, but the kids that you
0:54:12 > 0:54:14see each night face the consequences of us
0:54:14 > 0:54:18making terrible decisions, and
0:54:18 > 0:54:22we think democracy and values is far superior and quite prepared to
0:54:22 > 0:54:27intervene militarily for it.
0:54:27 > 0:54:31We better start thinking much more deeper about what the results are,
0:54:31 > 0:54:33and that the actions of which Western powers, to my mind,
0:54:33 > 0:54:36and Nato have been actively involved in in
0:54:36 > 0:54:37the name of democracy.
0:54:37 > 0:54:38Tell the kids that.
0:54:38 > 0:54:42APPLAUSE
0:54:42 > 0:54:46Juergen Maier.
0:54:46 > 0:54:49There are two discussions going on here, and one
0:54:49 > 0:54:52is, can we do more with regard to refugees coming here?
0:54:52 > 0:54:58And I certainly think we can and should,
0:54:58 > 0:55:00and I also very much agree with your point,
0:55:00 > 0:55:02though obviously the key reason for doing that is
0:55:02 > 0:55:05humanitarian, but there is an issue where actually these people are
0:55:05 > 0:55:08coming with very good educations.
0:55:08 > 0:55:10I've met people from Syria who come with great engineering degrees and
0:55:10 > 0:55:15can do great jobs in companies like ours, so there is that.
0:55:15 > 0:55:17But I think ultimately, the only way the problem
0:55:17 > 0:55:20will be solved is to resolve it at source,
0:55:20 > 0:55:21which is I think really what
0:55:21 > 0:55:23your question was - what more can we do
0:55:23 > 0:55:25to resolve the conflict?
0:55:25 > 0:55:28And I do think we are in a pretty horrible
0:55:28 > 0:55:31place, where the key sort of superpowers to which we do
0:55:31 > 0:55:35belong, we are all a little bit too inwardly
0:55:35 > 0:55:39focused on our own domestic issues.
0:55:39 > 0:55:44The America-first principle in America,
0:55:44 > 0:55:47and ultimately we can't do
0:55:47 > 0:55:48this on our own.
0:55:48 > 0:55:51We tried that once before and it didn't work.
0:55:51 > 0:55:53It takes a catalyst, and maybe that's what we
0:55:53 > 0:55:55should be, to bring some of these parties
0:55:55 > 0:55:56together with the UN, who do
0:55:56 > 0:55:59seem to be powerless, but I think that nations need
0:55:59 > 0:56:01to come together and ultimately sort out what we can
0:56:01 > 0:56:04do to sort this horrible, horrible situation going on in Syria, and
0:56:04 > 0:56:08stop it at source.
0:56:08 > 0:56:14APPLAUSE
0:56:14 > 0:56:16Should we actually be looking at
0:56:16 > 0:56:18creating a new global organisation, because
0:56:18 > 0:56:20the United Nations, the
0:56:20 > 0:56:24Security Council and all the other things you have been talking about
0:56:24 > 0:56:27have failed us, decade after decade, and really have a different approach
0:56:27 > 0:56:30globally?
0:56:30 > 0:56:33Do you see the United Nations as a failure, very briefly?
0:56:33 > 0:56:36We're coming to the end, but it's a good point.
0:56:36 > 0:56:40No, I don't, and I think we can get very caught up in
0:56:40 > 0:56:43creating new structures when really what we need to do is look at the
0:56:43 > 0:56:44outcomes.
0:56:44 > 0:56:47I think there is a good point that Juergen makes around
0:56:47 > 0:56:50making sure we are working together properly with the UN to get a
0:56:50 > 0:56:51solution, but one led by...
0:56:51 > 0:56:54Ultimately, is able to have a situation where the Syrian people
0:56:54 > 0:56:57are able to govern themselves again.
0:56:57 > 0:56:59We are a long way that at the moment, looking
0:56:59 > 0:57:00at the horrendous scenes
0:57:00 > 0:57:01we've seen over the weekend.
0:57:01 > 0:57:03But I think we have got to keep working
0:57:03 > 0:57:04away.
0:57:04 > 0:57:08There was a time when we thought the UN could help solve some
0:57:08 > 0:57:09of these ghastly, murderous problems,
0:57:09 > 0:57:10and now, that point, the
0:57:10 > 0:57:13lady says, seems to have passed and we can no longer rely on it.
0:57:13 > 0:57:15Seven years we've seen these scenes in
0:57:15 > 0:57:18Syria, seven years, not a few days, and we have not achieved anything,
0:57:18 > 0:57:25as far as I can see.
0:57:25 > 0:57:27Look, I appreciate it is horrendous what
0:57:27 > 0:57:29we're seeing happening there, but I do think
0:57:29 > 0:57:30ultimately we have got a
0:57:30 > 0:57:33regime in Syria that is treating its own people in a way
0:57:33 > 0:57:38that we struggle to comprehend as individuals in the
0:57:38 > 0:57:40Western world and to look at what they're doing.
0:57:40 > 0:57:44But I do think the UN is the right body to try and bring people
0:57:44 > 0:57:47together to get a resolution that ultimately can get to a better
0:57:47 > 0:57:48place.
0:57:48 > 0:57:49I'm sorry, we have to stop.
0:57:49 > 0:57:51But a global solution showed that the
0:57:51 > 0:57:54world could get together to deal with the climate change problem.
0:57:54 > 0:57:56All races got together to find that agreement, so there is a
0:57:56 > 0:57:58possibility, but you've got to work at it.
0:57:58 > 0:57:59All right.
0:57:59 > 0:58:01We have to end there.
0:58:01 > 0:58:03Our time is up.
0:58:03 > 0:58:05Next Thursday, Question Time is coming
0:58:05 > 0:58:08from Blackpool, and on the panel we have
0:58:08 > 0:58:11Nigel Farage, Diane Abbott, and
0:58:11 > 0:58:12Ken Clarke.
0:58:12 > 0:58:13Oh!
0:58:13 > 0:58:17Oh!
0:58:17 > 0:58:19And a week after that, we're going to be in
0:58:19 > 0:58:20Westminster.
0:58:20 > 0:58:23We have Liam Fox, the trade Secretary, and the Bake Off
0:58:23 > 0:58:25judge, Pru Leith, on the panel there.
0:58:25 > 0:58:27Now, those are two editions of Question Time, one in Blackpool,
0:58:27 > 0:58:31one in Westminster, to go to either, on the screen there is the address,
0:58:31 > 0:58:37our website, or the number to call.
0:58:40 > 0:58:44Now, as you know, the debate we've been having here carries on on BBC
0:58:44 > 0:58:46Radio 5 Live, the BBC, with Adrian Chiles and Chris Mason.
0:58:46 > 0:58:47They're waiting for your call.
0:58:47 > 0:58:51If you want to get involved in that, the text
0:58:51 > 0:58:54number is on the screen now, and you can also
0:58:54 > 0:58:55follow their discussions on
0:58:55 > 0:58:56iPlayer.
0:58:56 > 0:58:59Here, my thanks to the panel, to all of you who came to
0:58:59 > 0:59:00Uttoxeter.
0:59:00 > 0:59:08Until next Thursday, from Question Time, good night.