0:00:04 > 0:00:10Tonight, we're in Blackpool, and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18And with us on the panel tonight, the former Chancellor
0:00:18 > 0:00:20of the Exchequer, Home Secretary and everything else you can think
0:00:20 > 0:00:25of, and MP for 47 years, no fan of Brexit, Ken Clarke.
0:00:25 > 0:00:27Labour's Shadow Secretary of State for Northern Ireland,
0:00:27 > 0:00:29who stood against Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership of
0:00:29 > 0:00:31the Labour Party, Owen Smith.
0:00:31 > 0:00:34The former leader of Ukip, who led the campaign
0:00:34 > 0:00:37for a referendum on the EU, Nigel Farage.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39The businesswoman, politician, former winner of the Apprentice,
0:00:39 > 0:00:43Michelle Dewberry.
0:00:43 > 0:00:44And the television presenter, Radzi Chinyanganya,
0:00:44 > 0:00:47Blue Peter presenter, just back from Seoul,
0:00:47 > 0:00:55where he was covering the Winter Olympics.
0:01:01 > 0:01:03Good, thank you very much.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06Well, we have a lot to get through, but just a reminder, from home,
0:01:06 > 0:01:09if you want to join in the arguments you can use #BBCQT
0:01:09 > 0:01:12on both Twitter and Facebook, and argue the toss.
0:01:12 > 0:01:17Our first question tonight is from Rachael Lord, please.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19With less than 400 days until Britain leaves the EU,
0:01:19 > 0:01:23has the government wasted the last 616 days?
0:01:23 > 0:01:25Right, 616 days wasted.
0:01:25 > 0:01:26400 days to go.
0:01:26 > 0:01:27Have they been wasted?
0:01:27 > 0:01:29Nigel Farage.
0:01:29 > 0:01:33Well, in some ways they have, because it's all a bit
0:01:33 > 0:01:34contradictory, isn't it?
0:01:34 > 0:01:36Because Theresa May gives the Lancaster House speech
0:01:36 > 0:01:39in January last year, and I'm listening to her and I'm thinking,
0:01:39 > 0:01:40"I don't believe this".
0:01:40 > 0:01:42Here's a British Prime Minister using exactly the same words
0:01:42 > 0:01:45and phrases that I've been using for 20 years,
0:01:45 > 0:01:49without being called extremist or mad or bad.
0:01:49 > 0:01:52And I thought, "Wow, we've really got a government here that's
0:01:52 > 0:01:57"going to deliver on the things that people voted for".
0:01:57 > 0:02:01And then a few months later, her second big speech
0:02:01 > 0:02:03on Brexit was in Florence, when she says, "Well,
0:02:03 > 0:02:06"we are leaving the European Union but it's a really fantastic
0:02:06 > 0:02:09"organisation, and we are going to sign back up to justice and home
0:02:09 > 0:02:13"affairs and cooperation in this and that the other".
0:02:13 > 0:02:16And you think, "Well, are we really leaving, or aren't we"?
0:02:16 > 0:02:19And when she was asked a question on a radio show recently,
0:02:19 > 0:02:22if there was a referendum now, how would she vote, she couldn't
0:02:22 > 0:02:23answer the question.
0:02:23 > 0:02:25And I just feel...
0:02:25 > 0:02:31I know she's in a tight corner, I know it's difficult,
0:02:31 > 0:02:33she's got people like old Clarke over here, you know,
0:02:33 > 0:02:35and Anna Soubry, and it's difficult for her.
0:02:35 > 0:02:38But I do think these mixed messages need to end.
0:02:38 > 0:02:40She is giving this big speech tomorrow.
0:02:40 > 0:02:43I think she needs to come out with some clarity
0:02:43 > 0:02:46and she needs to put a counter to what Monsieur Barnier put
0:02:46 > 0:02:49on the table yesterday.
0:02:49 > 0:02:52We need to say, "Right, this is what we are after.
0:02:52 > 0:02:54"We are reasonable people, we are prepared to compromise,
0:02:54 > 0:02:57"but unless you are prepared to stop treating us like a hostage,
0:02:57 > 0:03:00"to treat us with some respect, then we will say that no deal
0:03:00 > 0:03:05"is better than a bad deal, and walk away".
0:03:05 > 0:03:08And unless she does that tomorrow, the EU will not, in my opinion,
0:03:08 > 0:03:11take her seriously, and we will go wasting time.
0:03:11 > 0:03:18APPLAUSE
0:03:18 > 0:03:20Where would you compromise?
0:03:20 > 0:03:22I thought Brexit meant Brexit, to you of all people.
0:03:22 > 0:03:23Brexit does mean Brexit.
0:03:23 > 0:03:24Of course there are compromises.
0:03:24 > 0:03:28I mean, you know, we need to talk about the financial settlement.
0:03:28 > 0:03:31And if there's a couple of bob we need to pay them, we'll do it.
0:03:31 > 0:03:34I mean things like that, we'll be reasonable.
0:03:34 > 0:03:36On Northern Ireland, to sort out the border issue
0:03:36 > 0:03:38there needs to be compromise actually on both sides.
0:03:38 > 0:03:44So of course we are reasonable, but what is for certain is every
0:03:44 > 0:03:48single major player in that referendum campaign, Ken included,
0:03:48 > 0:03:50said if we vote to leave, we are leaving the single market,
0:03:50 > 0:03:55and by implication, the customs union.
0:03:55 > 0:03:58And of course David Cameron said it, all your team on the Remain side
0:03:58 > 0:04:00said it, all the Leave team said it.
0:04:00 > 0:04:01And that's the point.
0:04:01 > 0:04:05Unless we leave the customs union and the single market,
0:04:05 > 0:04:09we will not be able to go global and to get the benefits that ought
0:04:09 > 0:04:10to come from Brexit.
0:04:10 > 0:04:12OK, Ken Clarke then.
0:04:12 > 0:04:14APPLAUSE
0:04:14 > 0:04:17Back to the question, have the government wasted the last
0:04:17 > 0:04:19616 days, with only 400 to go?
0:04:19 > 0:04:21Well, there have been mistakes, because it was a mistake
0:04:21 > 0:04:23to invoke Article 50 before we were ready to start.
0:04:23 > 0:04:26And that is because some of the Eurosceptics were getting
0:04:26 > 0:04:29rather paranoid, as they still are, that they are going to be
0:04:29 > 0:04:31cheated somehow, it's still not going to happen.
0:04:31 > 0:04:33So this was meant to be a flagship statement.
0:04:33 > 0:04:35And we weren't ready to negotiate anything.
0:04:35 > 0:04:37Is that why you voted against it?
0:04:37 > 0:04:41I voted against it because I stuck to my lifelong convictions of
0:04:41 > 0:04:42believing in the European project.
0:04:42 > 0:04:45Regardless of what the British public voted for at the referendum.
0:04:45 > 0:04:49I made it quite clear that I thought it was not a suitable
0:04:49 > 0:04:49thing for a referendum.
0:04:49 > 0:04:52I thought it was absurd to have one day, such a broad
0:04:52 > 0:04:53question with hundreds of complicated questions below.
0:04:53 > 0:04:55And that's the problem now.
0:04:55 > 0:04:58Because nobody actually debated what is going to be years of quite
0:04:58 > 0:05:02competitive negotiations.
0:05:02 > 0:05:04Nobody addressed what Leave would be.
0:05:04 > 0:05:05Nobody thought Leave was going to win.
0:05:05 > 0:05:10Nigel didn't.
0:05:10 > 0:05:12I heard him cheerily on the night of the count.
0:05:12 > 0:05:16He was saying the struggle continues, and went to bed,
0:05:16 > 0:05:18and then was amazed, as Boris was shocked, to discover
0:05:18 > 0:05:19that they'd actually won.
0:05:19 > 0:05:22And nobody had actually even begun to think through that what we're
0:05:22 > 0:05:28doing if we follow this decision is actually taking apart over 40
0:05:28 > 0:05:32years in which we've actually prospered, done well,
0:05:32 > 0:05:34been quite a prominent country in a rules-based
0:05:34 > 0:05:38international order, globalised economy,
0:05:38 > 0:05:42major free-trade system, our role in the world as one
0:05:42 > 0:05:46of the major players in the EU, that's why we are so important
0:05:46 > 0:05:47to the United States and so on.
0:05:47 > 0:05:50And our modern economy has been based on this.
0:05:50 > 0:05:54Now, all this we have to go through item by item.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57The problem with the debate is, like all trade treaties
0:05:57 > 0:06:00and political treaties, it is so complicated,
0:06:00 > 0:06:05you don't normally have a public debate about it at all.
0:06:05 > 0:06:08I mean, the technocrats who negotiate it and a few anoraks
0:06:08 > 0:06:12in the House of Commons and the people in the CBI
0:06:12 > 0:06:13and the trade unions,
0:06:13 > 0:06:18are usually the only people who get into this kind of picture.
0:06:18 > 0:06:21So as time goes by, and people want an instant, simple solution,
0:06:21 > 0:06:24and it's not going to happen.
0:06:24 > 0:06:27Optimistic, are you, in 400 days the thing will be sorted?
0:06:27 > 0:06:30I don't think there's the slightest chance of our having arrived
0:06:30 > 0:06:32at the final destination in 400 days.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35I think we need a transition period of at least two years.
0:06:35 > 0:06:40And as long as it takes to actually have grown up, sorted out details
0:06:40 > 0:06:47of what the new relationships are going to be, that don't disrupt
0:06:47 > 0:06:48some people's business, or don't disrupt some
0:06:48 > 0:06:51of our industries or services and so on.
0:06:51 > 0:06:55Behind all the passion about Brexit, there are an awful lot of things,
0:06:55 > 0:06:59important to our society, important to our jobs,
0:06:59 > 0:07:01our investment, also our security.
0:07:01 > 0:07:05And our environment and other things, have to be sorted out.
0:07:05 > 0:07:08So 600 days, it's a pity we haven't made further
0:07:08 > 0:07:10progress, but there we are.
0:07:10 > 0:07:11Michelle Dewberry.
0:07:11 > 0:07:16APPLAUSE
0:07:16 > 0:07:19Well, so, firstly I agree with you in the sense
0:07:19 > 0:07:22of there was no plans made, I don't think, to consider
0:07:22 > 0:07:25the outcome of Brexit.
0:07:25 > 0:07:26And I think that was absolutely disgraceful.
0:07:26 > 0:07:29And you say that, Ken, as though it's someone else's
0:07:29 > 0:07:32responsibility to have done that thinking.
0:07:32 > 0:07:35I feel very strongly that the government let us down
0:07:35 > 0:07:39by not even having a plan for Brexit when it happened.
0:07:39 > 0:07:40I do.
0:07:40 > 0:07:43And I feel like that was the government at
0:07:43 > 0:07:44the time's responsibility.
0:07:44 > 0:07:48Now, as for the last 616 days, I would like to rewind that and play
0:07:48 > 0:07:51it as a film and play either the Benny Hill theme tune
0:07:51 > 0:07:54or the hokey cokey over it, because honestly, I have
0:07:54 > 0:07:59found it so confusing.
0:07:59 > 0:08:01We're in, we are out, we want this, we don't want this,
0:08:01 > 0:08:03there's impact statements, oh, no, there's not.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06It's now become something where there's so much
0:08:06 > 0:08:10political posturing, almost like people are trying to get
0:08:10 > 0:08:13political personal gain, instead of coming together,
0:08:13 > 0:08:17respecting the referendum result and looking at how do we implement
0:08:17 > 0:08:21this for the greater good of the country in the future and not
0:08:21 > 0:08:26for the greater good of a person's political career going forward.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29Let me come to some of the audience and see what...
0:08:29 > 0:08:32You, what do you think about the way it's going?
0:08:32 > 0:08:33You, sir, yes.
0:08:33 > 0:08:36I would like to just concur with what Nigel was saying before.
0:08:36 > 0:08:40I think the United Kingdom, currently, there was never a time
0:08:40 > 0:08:44like the present when we need a strong leader, whoever that is.
0:08:44 > 0:08:49And unless somebody at the top can show us some teeth,
0:08:49 > 0:08:52because I've not seen it myself yet, it's as you say, we're just getting
0:08:52 > 0:08:56mixed messages all the time and no clarity whatsoever.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58Who would you like to see leading this?
0:08:58 > 0:09:01I don't really care who leads, I just want to see a strong person.
0:09:01 > 0:09:06The person up there at the very back.
0:09:06 > 0:09:07Yes.
0:09:07 > 0:09:08This is the whole problem.
0:09:08 > 0:09:12If it had remained a common market, which is what it was set out to be
0:09:12 > 0:09:14before I was old enough to vote in or out.
0:09:14 > 0:09:16It was a common market.
0:09:16 > 0:09:17People wouldn't have an issue with that.
0:09:17 > 0:09:20We have a common market where we all traded together
0:09:20 > 0:09:21and a security arrangement.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23But it's got far too complicated, as is shown by how
0:09:23 > 0:09:24complicated it is to unravel.
0:09:24 > 0:09:27It's going to take ages and ages to unravel and unpick it
0:09:27 > 0:09:30and decide what we do want and what we don't want.
0:09:30 > 0:09:31Are you dismayed by that?
0:09:31 > 0:09:32Yes.
0:09:32 > 0:09:35Owen Smith.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38I don't think they've wasted it so much as they've been scrapping
0:09:38 > 0:09:40amongst themselves because this is incredibly complicated.
0:09:40 > 0:09:42Michelle is right, the government had not prepared properly.
0:09:42 > 0:09:44Nigel definitely didn't think he was going to win.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47He was clearly delighted that he did win.
0:09:47 > 0:09:49Well, I tried damn hard.
0:09:49 > 0:09:51I think you've been extremely influential.
0:09:51 > 0:09:54I've been very trying, yes.
0:09:54 > 0:10:00Very influential, unfortunately.
0:10:00 > 0:10:02But the truth is, it's incredibly complicated.
0:10:02 > 0:10:05The lady there said that she wished we were still in the common market.
0:10:05 > 0:10:08Well, common market, the modern equivalent
0:10:08 > 0:10:10of that is effectively staying in the customs union
0:10:10 > 0:10:12and the single market.
0:10:12 > 0:10:15But the Tories don't want to stay in the customs union.
0:10:15 > 0:10:17They don't want to stay in the single market, they say.
0:10:17 > 0:10:20They thought we had sorted out what we were going
0:10:20 > 0:10:21to do on transition.
0:10:21 > 0:10:23Ken talks about a two-year period being needed for that.
0:10:23 > 0:10:26Now we're not even sure what they're going to do for transition.
0:10:26 > 0:10:28Northern Ireland, that I'm responsible for,
0:10:28 > 0:10:30has obviously caught all the headlines this week.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33Nobody had given any thought to that.
0:10:33 > 0:10:34Nigel didn't talk about it.
0:10:34 > 0:10:36Nobody really knew how we were going to maintain
0:10:36 > 0:10:38the Good Friday Agreement and an open border in Ireland.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42And so we are, after the referendum, trying to sort out these
0:10:42 > 0:10:45incredibly thorny issues, and it is going to take a long time.
0:10:45 > 0:10:48And it isn't helped, frankly, by people like Nigel saying,
0:10:48 > 0:10:51"Get on with it, we've got to deliver it tomorrow".
0:10:51 > 0:10:53And he's doing that, of course, for his political purposes.
0:10:53 > 0:10:55No.
0:10:55 > 0:10:58He's doing that because he believes it puts him back in the spotlight.
0:10:58 > 0:11:00The truth is we've got to get it right.
0:11:00 > 0:11:01We voted to leave.
0:11:01 > 0:11:05But we didn't vote on all of those separate complex issues, Nigel.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08Do you accept that every major player on the Remain and Leave side
0:11:08 > 0:11:12said if we vote to leave, we are leaving the single market?
0:11:12 > 0:11:15No.
0:11:15 > 0:11:16You don't accept that.
0:11:16 > 0:11:19I saw Daniel Hannan, the Conservative MP,
0:11:19 > 0:11:24saying explicitly nobody is talking about leaving the single market.
0:11:24 > 0:11:27I saw Owen Paterson, who is the Northern Ireland
0:11:28 > 0:11:30Secretary, saying explicitly, nobody is talking about
0:11:30 > 0:11:31leaving the single market.
0:11:31 > 0:11:33They are two of the leading Brexit campaigners.
0:11:33 > 0:11:34I said major players.
0:11:34 > 0:11:39You mean you, Nigel?
0:11:39 > 0:11:43I mean Boris, Michael Gove, really senior figures.
0:11:43 > 0:11:46Shall we allow a new member of the panel to have a word?
0:11:46 > 0:11:47Radzi.
0:11:47 > 0:11:49I'm getting really bored of hearing the politicians tell us
0:11:49 > 0:11:52what they believe we really voted for when it came
0:11:52 > 0:11:54to the EU referendum.
0:11:54 > 0:11:58I actually spent one month in Pyeongchang working
0:11:58 > 0:12:00at the Winter Olympics.
0:12:00 > 0:12:02I came back, and it feels like nothing's changed whatsoever.
0:12:02 > 0:12:05To come to your point, Rachel, think it's a really good one.
0:12:05 > 0:12:07The waters have been muddied so much with the customs union,
0:12:07 > 0:12:11duplicitous semantics where we are sort of having
0:12:11 > 0:12:15one finger in one pie, one finger in another.
0:12:15 > 0:12:17And for me, the whole point of the referendum was,
0:12:17 > 0:12:19do we want independence, or do we want unity?
0:12:19 > 0:12:21I think the public have actually voted on this.
0:12:21 > 0:12:23I think we know where we stand.
0:12:23 > 0:12:26And I think to take us anywhere elsewhere is to do us,
0:12:26 > 0:12:28as an electorate, a disservice.
0:12:28 > 0:12:31And actually I think it's undemocratic to question
0:12:31 > 0:12:33the will of the people, regardless of which way you voted.
0:12:33 > 0:12:36We know the direction of travel now, and let's actually
0:12:36 > 0:12:38move in that direction.
0:12:38 > 0:12:44APPLAUSE
0:12:44 > 0:12:46Carrying on, really, from what Ken Clarke said,
0:12:46 > 0:12:50that it hadn't been thought through properly, it wasn't thought
0:12:50 > 0:12:54through before we went in properly.
0:12:54 > 0:12:55Nobody told us that our fishing industries
0:12:55 > 0:12:57were going to be decimated.
0:12:57 > 0:13:00And many other things.
0:13:00 > 0:13:03And following on from what that lady up there said, yes,
0:13:03 > 0:13:04it has got very complicated.
0:13:04 > 0:13:06We voted...
0:13:06 > 0:13:08Well, I didn't vote, actually.
0:13:08 > 0:13:10I think it's the worst thing that this country has
0:13:10 > 0:13:11ever been dragged into.
0:13:11 > 0:13:14You didn't vote because you were against the idea of the vote?
0:13:14 > 0:13:17I was totally opposed to the idea right from the beginning.
0:13:17 > 0:13:20We've always been an independent country, and anybody under the age
0:13:20 > 0:13:22of 40 has never lived in a free country.
0:13:22 > 0:13:29Think about that.
0:13:29 > 0:13:30And over there, yes.
0:13:30 > 0:13:31Sorry, yes.
0:13:31 > 0:13:34My question is really that this is one of the biggest decisions
0:13:34 > 0:13:37we're going to make for our country since World War II.
0:13:37 > 0:13:39And I think we went into a referendum with hardly any
0:13:39 > 0:13:40information whatsoever.
0:13:40 > 0:13:44We had figures quoted on the back of a red bus
0:13:44 > 0:13:45which we were sucked into believing.
0:13:45 > 0:13:47And as the impact and the indications of going
0:13:47 > 0:13:49into the referendum, and the agreement we are going
0:13:49 > 0:13:52to come out with suggests we are going to be a different
0:13:52 > 0:13:54place, I genuinely feel that the people who voted to leave
0:13:54 > 0:13:56did not have the relevant facts.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59Now, as the facts come on the table, we need a genuine
0:13:59 > 0:14:01requirement to go back again.
0:14:01 > 0:14:03Karen Hines.
0:14:03 > 0:14:04We'll take up your point.
0:14:04 > 0:14:06Karen Hines.
0:14:06 > 0:14:07That was you!
0:14:07 > 0:14:08It was.
0:14:08 > 0:14:11Well, you've had your say, now put your question.
0:14:11 > 0:14:15What was your question going to be?
0:14:15 > 0:14:18My question is, was John Major right to suggest that once we understand
0:14:18 > 0:14:20the impact of leaving the EU, should we actually go back
0:14:20 > 0:14:24to the people to actually vote for what is on the table?
0:14:24 > 0:14:29So a second vote, a second referendum?
0:14:29 > 0:14:32That's what John Major was suggesting, either through
0:14:32 > 0:14:34Parliament or through the public vote, that once we understand
0:14:34 > 0:14:37what we are actually agreeing to leave with,
0:14:37 > 0:14:40rather than the fiction that was propagated earlier,
0:14:40 > 0:14:42once we get those facts on the table,
0:14:42 > 0:14:45should we actually revisit and say, is this the deal we thought
0:14:45 > 0:14:49we were voting for the first time?
0:14:49 > 0:14:51Michelle Dewberry, do you think that's a good idea?
0:14:51 > 0:14:52I just don't really see...
0:14:52 > 0:14:55I voted Leave, and I share concerns that actually
0:14:55 > 0:14:59there was misinformation on both sides.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02For me, it was so focused on fighting with each other instead
0:15:02 > 0:15:04of articulating things properly to us.
0:15:04 > 0:15:12So I share that concern.
0:15:13 > 0:15:15But I don't see how a second referendum could work
0:15:15 > 0:15:19because if the EU knew that actually we're just going to have a second
0:15:19 > 0:15:21referendum and therefore we could potentially undo the first
0:15:21 > 0:15:25one, why would they work hard to give us a deal of any substance?
0:15:25 > 0:15:26But they're not.
0:15:26 > 0:15:28I don't see they would.
0:15:28 > 0:15:29But they're not, are they?
0:15:29 > 0:15:30They're not.
0:15:30 > 0:15:31They're absolutely not doing that at all.
0:15:31 > 0:15:33OK you sir, up there, with the spectacles on.
0:15:33 > 0:15:35On the gangway there.
0:15:35 > 0:15:41All we need is a strong leader who is going to give us a direction
0:15:41 > 0:15:43in what direction we're going to go.
0:15:43 > 0:15:46There's no strong leadership to give us any sort of focus
0:15:46 > 0:15:49and all the country should get behind us from that point.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52So in the absence of what you call a strong leader, what happens?
0:15:52 > 0:15:54What do you think is going to happen?
0:15:54 > 0:15:56It's going to be side to side all the time.
0:15:56 > 0:15:58You've got polarisation between both parties.
0:15:58 > 0:16:00You need a strong leader and then the opposition needs
0:16:00 > 0:16:01to go along with them.
0:16:01 > 0:16:03Nigel Farage, you once flirted with the idea
0:16:03 > 0:16:04of a second referendum?
0:16:04 > 0:16:06No, I didn't, I said I feared.
0:16:06 > 0:16:07Feared, all right.
0:16:07 > 0:16:10Because there is a great Brexit betrayal going on,
0:16:10 > 0:16:12that parliament may force a second referendum upon us.
0:16:12 > 0:16:16I pray they don't, but I do fear and I think some
0:16:16 > 0:16:20of the people in this panel would like a second referendum.
0:16:20 > 0:16:22I think you did say you wanted a second referendum.
0:16:22 > 0:16:23It was his policy.
0:16:23 > 0:16:24He said he wanted one.
0:16:24 > 0:16:25Of course not.
0:16:25 > 0:16:26You said you wanted one.
0:16:26 > 0:16:27No, no.
0:16:27 > 0:16:31The point is, I don't want a second referendum, but I fear it.
0:16:31 > 0:16:33For John Major to say - and they're all doing it -
0:16:33 > 0:16:36any of you here that voted Brexit, you're thick.
0:16:36 > 0:16:37You're stupid.
0:16:37 > 0:16:38You didn't understand what you're doing.
0:16:38 > 0:16:39He did not say that.
0:16:39 > 0:16:42We're sick to death of insults from people like John Major.
0:16:42 > 0:16:43That's insulting to John Major.
0:16:43 > 0:16:45We knew exactly what we were voting on.
0:16:45 > 0:16:47We voted to become an independent country - full stop.
0:16:47 > 0:16:50Mr Farage, can I challenge that slightly and say,
0:16:50 > 0:16:53when we voted to leave, did we know we were leaving
0:16:53 > 0:16:56the customs union and did we notice that we're actually going to vote
0:16:56 > 0:17:00for a Northern-Southern Ireland border.
0:17:00 > 0:17:02That was never brought up at all.
0:17:02 > 0:17:05Let me just go around the panel again.
0:17:05 > 0:17:07Ken Clarke, what is your view?
0:17:07 > 0:17:10Great, I'll come back to you.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13But, what is your view about how this thing should be endorsed,
0:17:13 > 0:17:15if it should be, either by referendum or by parliament?
0:17:15 > 0:17:19Well, sticking to the serious subject, because Nigel sort of just
0:17:19 > 0:17:27starts insulting John Major and then -Wow, I tell you what...
0:17:30 > 0:17:33Just starts insulting John Major and then serious to future-
0:17:33 > 0:17:37Wow, I tell you what...
0:17:37 > 0:17:39It is very serious to future generations what we're talking
0:17:39 > 0:17:42about actually and should not be reduced to that kind
0:17:42 > 0:17:43of rubbish, frankly.
0:17:43 > 0:17:44APPLAUSE.
0:17:44 > 0:17:47I do agree that the referendum campaign was - certainly as reported
0:17:47 > 0:17:48in the national media - was disastrous.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51I mean a load of rubbish from both sides was reported.
0:17:51 > 0:17:53Absolutely none of the issues being talked about now.
0:17:53 > 0:17:56I did some town hall meetings with leading figures of the other
0:17:56 > 0:17:58side and there were perfectly sensible exchanges on both
0:17:58 > 0:17:59sides some of them.
0:17:59 > 0:18:01None of that actually was shared with the public.
0:18:01 > 0:18:03Anybody who didn't know much about the European Union
0:18:03 > 0:18:06was probably more mystified by the end of the campaign
0:18:06 > 0:18:08than they had been at the start.
0:18:08 > 0:18:09So there's a danger we'd repeat that.
0:18:09 > 0:18:12I mean, I'm an eccentric remainer, if you like, I don't want
0:18:12 > 0:18:13a second referendum.
0:18:13 > 0:18:16Particularly, as I've just said, it is on a hugely complex series
0:18:16 > 0:18:18of treaties which you're not going to have a serious
0:18:18 > 0:18:20debate about.
0:18:20 > 0:18:25The problem with the broad brush question before was -
0:18:25 > 0:18:27on both sides, remain and leave - everybody didn't vote
0:18:27 > 0:18:31for the same reason.
0:18:31 > 0:18:39People voted remain, some of them with different
0:18:39 > 0:18:40reasons from each other.
0:18:40 > 0:18:43We know all that, but should parliament have a final say?
0:18:43 > 0:18:45When I say I declared no sane reason for leaving erratum,
0:18:45 > 0:18:48I'm told that my master's the people who've ordered me to leave erratum.
0:18:48 > 0:18:51With the greatest respect, I don't think I'm being too arrogant
0:18:51 > 0:18:53in saying, I don't think most of my constituents had
0:18:53 > 0:18:57any view on erratum, you'd have to do them the courtesy
0:18:57 > 0:18:59of explaining what nuclear safeguarding work (inaudible)
0:18:59 > 0:19:02before you leave it - Do you have a view about
0:19:02 > 0:19:04whether there should be a parliamentary vote at the end
0:19:04 > 0:19:05of the day?
0:19:05 > 0:19:07I think there should be a free vote.
0:19:07 > 0:19:09It's very good because, if you had a free vote,
0:19:09 > 0:19:11both parties would collapse.
0:19:11 > 0:19:12They're both hopelessly divided.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14The reason you have such bizarre, rather mixed messages
0:19:14 > 0:19:20as the official party programme is coming out is, Theresa
0:19:20 > 0:19:22can't get her Cabinet to agree with each other.
0:19:22 > 0:19:24She's negotiating - Can't get you to agree with her!
0:19:24 > 0:19:26Obviously, I'm not in the Cabinet.
0:19:26 > 0:19:28She's negotiating with Boris more than she's able to negotiate
0:19:28 > 0:19:31with Michel Barnier or anybody else.
0:19:31 > 0:19:35On the Labour side, the vast majority of them are pro-European,
0:19:35 > 0:19:38but Corbyn and McDonnell are two of the most hard line eurosceptics
0:19:38 > 0:19:41in the House of Commons.
0:19:41 > 0:19:47Now, members of parliament, two-thirds of them will be in favour
0:19:47 > 0:19:50of staying in the Common Market, which is now called the single
0:19:50 > 0:19:51market and the customs union.
0:19:51 > 0:19:54Is that how they're going to vote and that's what's
0:19:54 > 0:19:55going to happen, is it?
0:19:55 > 0:20:03Well, a free vote would hope because they're terrified
0:20:11 > 0:20:13-- help of the whips and they're terrified
0:20:13 > 0:20:15of the Daily Mail because they're
0:20:15 > 0:20:17denounced as traitors, enemies of the people if they don't
0:20:17 > 0:20:20realise that every one of those millions who voted remain knew it
0:20:20 > 0:20:22meant leaving the customs union, which they most certainly didn't
0:20:22 > 0:20:24or had views on the Irish border, apparently.
0:20:24 > 0:20:26I don't remember it being mentioned.
0:20:26 > 0:20:29Radzi, do you want to see parliament vote on this, in the way that
0:20:29 > 0:20:30Ken has just explained?
0:20:30 > 0:20:33That probably it will turn down a lot of the ideas that
0:20:33 > 0:20:36Nigel Farage has and others had when they voted to leave?
0:20:36 > 0:20:37For me, no, and it's very simple.
0:20:37 > 0:20:39In 1975, when we had the original EU referendum,
0:20:39 > 0:20:42the answer was we wanted to remain in at that point.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45There was no question about by how much we want to remain
0:20:45 > 0:20:47in and let's negotiate that, and let's nusiance it.
0:20:47 > 0:20:48There was no question then.
0:20:48 > 0:20:51But now the answer has been Brexit, we're now going to change it
0:20:51 > 0:20:54to the answer we feel the will of the power wants.
0:20:54 > 0:20:57But in addition to that, I think there's a broader question
0:20:57 > 0:20:59about what is politics and what is democracy?
0:20:59 > 0:21:02Why is it that we're only allowed one vote every five years,
0:21:02 > 0:21:03we do have by-elections as well.
0:21:03 > 0:21:06On X Factor, on Strictly Come Dancing you can vote weekly,
0:21:06 > 0:21:07immediately with your phones.
0:21:07 > 0:21:08All right.
0:21:08 > 0:21:09Heaven help us.
0:21:09 > 0:21:10God forbid an election.
0:21:10 > 0:21:11A weekly referendum.
0:21:11 > 0:21:12He's got a point, I think.
0:21:12 > 0:21:13Yes, yes.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16For some of us, we would be in business anyway.
0:21:16 > 0:21:17You, sir.
0:21:17 > 0:21:19I was a vote Leave co-ordinator and people voted for various
0:21:19 > 0:21:21different reasons, a number of different reasons,
0:21:21 > 0:21:22it wasn't one particular one.
0:21:22 > 0:21:26But two members of the audience I think have hit it spot on tonight,
0:21:26 > 0:21:27it's about leadership.
0:21:27 > 0:21:29Owen's very eloquent and spoke very well tonight with regard
0:21:29 > 0:21:31to the Labour position, but it's very important that
0:21:31 > 0:21:34Corbyn has a role to play, and I'm a Conservative
0:21:34 > 0:21:37and the Government is leading, but it needs to be every political
0:21:37 > 0:21:39party has to show true leadership and the flip flopping by Labour,
0:21:39 > 0:21:42over the last 12 months, I just think has been disgraceful.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45What do you make of this change, apparent change, in Labour's policy?
0:21:45 > 0:21:47There'll be another change next week.
0:21:47 > 0:21:50That's what we've put up with for the last 12 months.
0:21:50 > 0:21:53There's no direction, political direction and every
0:21:53 > 0:21:55party has to play a role.
0:21:55 > 0:21:57They said they're in favour of the customs union.
0:21:57 > 0:21:59They want to stay in that.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02They are this week, but we don't know whether that's going to be
0:22:02 > 0:22:03the same case going forward.
0:22:03 > 0:22:04Oh, I see.
0:22:04 > 0:22:05That's the difficulty.
0:22:05 > 0:22:07Each political party has to set out what they believe,
0:22:07 > 0:22:10and there will be an influence on the outcome of the overall
0:22:10 > 0:22:13negotiations, but at the moment you've not got the effective
0:22:13 > 0:22:15opposition that actually makes the Government stronger as well.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17I think Theresa's doing the best she is, but each political
0:22:17 > 0:22:19party has to play a role.
0:22:19 > 0:22:21OK, you in the front row there.
0:22:21 > 0:22:22Hold on, wait a second.
0:22:22 > 0:22:23OK, fire away.
0:22:23 > 0:22:25Just to draw back to the original point that was made,
0:22:25 > 0:22:27I'm just going to back to it.
0:22:27 > 0:22:30First of all the lady over here on my left.
0:22:30 > 0:22:34Quite frankly, as someone who also voted to leave the European Union,
0:22:34 > 0:22:37well educated in politics, I find it absolutely unruly how
0:22:37 > 0:22:39she can even come out with that, physically form it
0:22:39 > 0:22:40in her mind.
0:22:40 > 0:22:41APPLAUSE.
0:22:41 > 0:22:44Moving on from that.
0:22:44 > 0:22:52In terms of John Major, obviously I've seen the speech that
0:22:53 > 0:22:58he's done recently and what he's saying is serious, but how can
0:22:58 > 0:23:01we treat what he's saying is serious because he back tracked.
0:23:01 > 0:23:04Was it not him that, first of all, put us in the Maastricht Treaty,
0:23:04 > 0:23:06all those years ago, and led the way.
0:23:06 > 0:23:10And now he's back tracked and he's trying to say that Theresa May's
0:23:10 > 0:23:11wrong for what she's doing.
0:23:11 > 0:23:15How do we know that Theresa May's not going to change her mind?
0:23:15 > 0:23:18And all this time that it's actually taken us to get out of Brexit,
0:23:18 > 0:23:21get out of the European Union, which is something we voted for,
0:23:21 > 0:23:23whether it's 1% over what we need or what,
0:23:23 > 0:23:25it doesn't matter what the percentage is,
0:23:25 > 0:23:26we voted, and that's that.
0:23:26 > 0:23:29So in the time that it's taking for us to get out
0:23:29 > 0:23:31of the European Union, how many people are going
0:23:31 > 0:23:34to change their mind between between now and then,
0:23:34 > 0:23:35just like John Major did?
0:23:35 > 0:23:36OK.
0:23:36 > 0:23:38What do you think of John Major endorsing the policy
0:23:38 > 0:23:41of which you ran as Deputy Leader of the Labour Party,
0:23:41 > 0:23:43a second referendum before everything is signed off?
0:23:43 > 0:23:45I think John Major's views should be taking absolutely seriously.
0:23:45 > 0:23:47He was Prime Minister of this country.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50He was the man who started the peace process that delivered eventually
0:23:50 > 0:23:52the Good Friday Agreement.
0:23:52 > 0:23:55He is someone whose views I think are seriously put and I don't think
0:23:55 > 0:23:58Nigel should be insulting to him in the way in which
0:23:58 > 0:23:59he was a minute ago.
0:23:59 > 0:24:01Hang on, John Major insulted 17.4 million people,
0:24:01 > 0:24:04I just insulted him.
0:24:04 > 0:24:05No, he didn't.
0:24:05 > 0:24:06APPLAUSE.
0:24:06 > 0:24:08All right, the person at the back there.
0:24:08 > 0:24:09Yes.
0:24:09 > 0:24:10Hold on a second.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12Yes, the person there, in the back row.
0:24:12 > 0:24:15With the parties collapsing and the divisions that
0:24:15 > 0:24:18are in British politics at the moment, is the time not right
0:24:18 > 0:24:22for a new party to be formed and for this party to actually do
0:24:22 > 0:24:24what the British people voted for?
0:24:24 > 0:24:25What kind of party?
0:24:25 > 0:24:28Would that be a kind of Ukip kind of party by any chance?
0:24:28 > 0:24:34Oh no, not necessarily.
0:24:34 > 0:24:35What?
0:24:35 > 0:24:36Not necessarily.
0:24:36 > 0:24:40But maybe people from all parties could come together to sort out this
0:24:40 > 0:24:42issue rather than the parties fighting within each other
0:24:42 > 0:24:43and against each other.
0:24:43 > 0:24:44OK.
0:24:44 > 0:24:46Let's just take a slightly different point.
0:24:46 > 0:24:47Peter, can we have your question.
0:24:47 > 0:24:48Peter.
0:24:48 > 0:24:5267% of Blackpool voted leave.
0:24:52 > 0:24:54Has Jeremy Corbyn's U-turn betrayed millions of its northern
0:24:54 > 0:24:58Labour leave voters?
0:24:58 > 0:25:01This is what you call his U-turn, saying Labour would stay
0:25:01 > 0:25:02in the customs union now?
0:25:02 > 0:25:03Yeah.
0:25:03 > 0:25:06We're in a strong Brexit area, Owen Smith, what do you make
0:25:06 > 0:25:08of Jeremy Corbyn and that question?
0:25:08 > 0:25:09Well, I don't think it is a U-turn.
0:25:09 > 0:25:11We said previously we thought the customs union...
0:25:11 > 0:25:14we said previously we thought the customs union should be
0:25:14 > 0:25:17an option that the Tories should be keeping on the table.
0:25:17 > 0:25:19And the major reason we thought that was about the prosperity
0:25:19 > 0:25:23of this country and the need for us to trade with our biggest trading
0:25:23 > 0:25:25partners, the European Union, with whom we do almost half
0:25:25 > 0:25:28of our trade and because taxes and tariffs would damage the incomes
0:25:28 > 0:25:31of people in the north-west and elsewhere across Britain.
0:25:31 > 0:25:35But also because it's the one way in which we can try and guarantee
0:25:35 > 0:25:38that we keep the border open in Northern Ireland,
0:25:38 > 0:25:42between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic,
0:25:42 > 0:25:43that is so important to the underpinning
0:25:43 > 0:25:45of the Good Friday Agreement.
0:25:45 > 0:25:48All Jeremy has said this week is that we've now decided
0:25:48 > 0:25:52that we will negotiate membership of a customs union in order
0:25:52 > 0:25:56to achieve those two important things and that the Tories -
0:25:56 > 0:25:58who've ruled out staying in the customs union -
0:25:58 > 0:26:03are therefore creating the problem that they cannot solve at present,
0:26:03 > 0:26:06of the border in Northern Ireland.
0:26:06 > 0:26:08And, unfortunately, on their own sums, are condemning
0:26:08 > 0:26:12this part of the world, if we had the no deal
0:26:12 > 0:26:15that Nigel talked about, to see a reduction in GDP.
0:26:15 > 0:26:18See a reduction in earnings here of 12%.
0:26:18 > 0:26:21Now, nobody at the election was told that.
0:26:21 > 0:26:24Double it, double it, make it 25%, make it 50%.
0:26:24 > 0:26:27It's nonsense.
0:26:27 > 0:26:30It's not my number, Nigel, it's the Tory Government's.
0:26:30 > 0:26:33It's the civil service.
0:26:33 > 0:26:34What do you expect?
0:26:34 > 0:26:36It's our independent civil service- oh, yeah.
0:26:36 > 0:26:37Working for a Tory government.
0:26:37 > 0:26:40Owen Smith, some people think that this is a ploy by Labour to get
0:26:40 > 0:26:43a vote in the House of Commons that will unseat Theresa May?
0:26:43 > 0:26:47If you get a vote on it, like Ken Clarke might vote for it -
0:26:47 > 0:26:48But it won't unseat Theresa May, but..
0:26:48 > 0:26:52Oh, really?
0:26:52 > 0:26:55I think we could win a vote in the House of Commons
0:26:55 > 0:26:56on the customs union.
0:26:56 > 0:26:58The Blairites have been very successful in getting Jeremy -
0:26:58 > 0:27:01through gritted teeth - to say he'll let it be
0:27:01 > 0:27:03the Labour Party's policy for the time being.
0:27:03 > 0:27:04So, sorry.
0:27:04 > 0:27:07You would vote for it and - I have voted for it
0:27:07 > 0:27:09several times already.
0:27:09 > 0:27:12So how would that not, if she lost the majority
0:27:12 > 0:27:14in the House of Commons, how would that not unseat her?
0:27:14 > 0:27:17Because governments don't fall if they lose an amendment to a bill
0:27:17 > 0:27:18in the House of Commons.
0:27:18 > 0:27:21They fall if there's a vote of confidence for the purpose
0:27:21 > 0:27:24and actually it's more complicated nowadays because we passed an Act
0:27:24 > 0:27:26of Parliament designed to make parliaments last five years.
0:27:26 > 0:27:29Again, it's everybody making it more exciting in the newspapers and it
0:27:29 > 0:27:31claims that if the Government loses one vote, it falls.
0:27:31 > 0:27:32We've beaten them once already.
0:27:32 > 0:27:35They were trying to stop parliament having a vote
0:27:35 > 0:27:36at all on the final deal.
0:27:36 > 0:27:37We had a majority for that.
0:27:37 > 0:27:40There were 11 traitors, rebels, enemies of the people,
0:27:40 > 0:27:43all that kind of thing, and now we're going to have a vote.
0:27:43 > 0:27:45There wasn't a murmur the next day that the Prime
0:27:45 > 0:27:46Minister should resign.
0:27:46 > 0:27:47It didn't threaten the Government.
0:27:47 > 0:27:49I had not put Corbyn in Downing Street.
0:27:49 > 0:27:50It's all nonsense.
0:27:50 > 0:27:52of Parliament designed to make parliaments last five years.
0:27:52 > 0:27:55Again, it's everybody making it more exciting in the newspapers and it
0:27:55 > 0:27:58claims that if the Government loses one vote, it falls.
0:27:58 > 0:27:59We've beaten them once already.
0:27:59 > 0:28:01They were trying to stop parliament having a vote
0:28:01 > 0:28:03at all on the final deal.
0:28:03 > 0:28:04We had a majority for that.
0:28:04 > 0:28:06There were 11 traitors, rebels, enemies of the people,
0:28:06 > 0:28:09all that kind of thing, and now we're going to have a vote.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12There wasn't a murmur the next day that the Prime
0:28:12 > 0:28:13Minister should resign.
0:28:13 > 0:28:14It didn't threaten the Government.
0:28:14 > 0:28:16I had not put Corbyn in Downing Street.
0:28:16 > 0:28:18Supposing she said it was a vote of confidence?
0:28:18 > 0:28:21Well, she'd be very unwise to do so, and the Chief Whip has already
0:28:21 > 0:28:23said they won't do that.
0:28:23 > 0:28:24It will be just completely crazy.
0:28:24 > 0:28:25Brave.
0:28:25 > 0:28:26Too complicated.
0:28:26 > 0:28:27It would be completely crazy.
0:28:27 > 0:28:30I mean, this exacerbation is being felt all over the country,
0:28:30 > 0:28:31I think with this process.
0:28:31 > 0:28:33I'm afraid I warn you, we haven't started
0:28:33 > 0:28:34the serious negotiations yet.
0:28:34 > 0:28:36You're going to have years of this.
0:28:36 > 0:28:39How we will maintain a public debate about it, I've no idea.
0:28:39 > 0:28:41You'll collapse exhausted I shold think at the end.
0:28:41 > 0:28:43In the modern world, 60% of our trade, if you count
0:28:43 > 0:28:46all the EU deals that we're members of, 60% of our trade
0:28:46 > 0:28:47is in trade agreements.
0:28:47 > 0:28:49In the modern world, countries like ours,
0:28:49 > 0:28:51trade with other countries with trade treaties.
0:28:51 > 0:28:52I'll deal with just that one point.
0:28:52 > 0:28:54Trade treaties and that involves agreeing some
0:28:54 > 0:28:56mutually binding rules, regulations, the basis
0:28:56 > 0:28:59standards, the basis on which you're going to trade.
0:28:59 > 0:29:02An arrangement for settling disputes and all the things that people seem
0:29:02 > 0:29:03to think we're getting rid of.
0:29:03 > 0:29:05If you leave all our present trading arrangements,
0:29:05 > 0:29:06you've got to negotiate others.
0:29:06 > 0:29:09All this stuff that Boris produced in the speech after the referendum,
0:29:09 > 0:29:11about global Britain and how the Americans and the Chinese
0:29:11 > 0:29:14and the Indians and the Brazilians are waiting to throw
0:29:14 > 0:29:16open their doors - come in Britain, no rules.
0:29:16 > 0:29:19You make your mind up how, what you want to sell.
0:29:19 > 0:29:20No conditions.
0:29:20 > 0:29:21This is all a fantasy world.
0:29:21 > 0:29:23We are going to leave.
0:29:23 > 0:29:25They are queueing up, Ken.
0:29:25 > 0:29:27They are not queueing up.
0:29:27 > 0:29:30Countries all over the world are queueing up to talk to us.
0:29:30 > 0:29:32I've been involved in trade negotiations.
0:29:32 > 0:29:33I've been in business, too.
0:29:33 > 0:29:36If you think you're going to get a quick trade deal with China...
0:29:36 > 0:29:37They're queueing.
0:29:37 > 0:29:40..or with the United States, you're living in cloud cuckoo land.
0:29:40 > 0:29:41Negative.
0:29:41 > 0:29:43It has to be done seriously.
0:29:43 > 0:29:45Your Foreign Secretary is living in cloud cuckoo land?
0:29:45 > 0:29:48He certainly keeps coming up with a lot of rather comic remarks,
0:29:48 > 0:29:50I must say, which Boris is very good at.
0:29:50 > 0:29:52APPLAUSE.
0:29:52 > 0:29:55Boris and Nigel are not frightfully good on the way in which the modern
0:29:55 > 0:29:57globalised economy works and thousands and thousands
0:29:57 > 0:29:59of jobs in this country and our future prosperity depend
0:29:59 > 0:30:05on being successful in the globalised economy.
0:30:05 > 0:30:07I have to stop you, because I want to hear
0:30:07 > 0:30:09from the gentleman up there.
0:30:09 > 0:30:10Yes, you.
0:30:10 > 0:30:13I'd just like to say to Ken, you know it is a comic remark
0:30:13 > 0:30:15telling people who voted Leave that they didn't know
0:30:15 > 0:30:16what they were voting for.
0:30:16 > 0:30:19And just in response to the lady down there, I'd like to ask,
0:30:19 > 0:30:21what did you vote for?
0:30:21 > 0:30:22Did you vote for an EU army?
0:30:22 > 0:30:24Did you vote for Turkey to join the EU?
0:30:24 > 0:30:27Did you vote for an EU superstate, an ever expanding EU state?
0:30:27 > 0:30:30What did you vote for?
0:30:30 > 0:30:33What kind of Remain did you want?
0:30:33 > 0:30:35Who are you talking to, the lady here?
0:30:35 > 0:30:37All right, a brief answer.
0:30:37 > 0:30:41I was going to ask you on the panel but you can do it from there.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44Keep it brief, if you would, because we want to move on.
0:30:44 > 0:30:46Of course.
0:30:46 > 0:30:46I voted to Remain.
0:30:46 > 0:30:49I didn't vote for Turkey, I didn't vote for all those things
0:30:49 > 0:30:50because it wasn't an option.
0:30:50 > 0:30:53I voted Remain because I thought that that's the best option for this
0:30:53 > 0:30:58country in terms of its trade deal, in terms of other things.
0:30:58 > 0:31:02And I think one of the major reasons people voted Leave
0:31:02 > 0:31:05was because of the migration issue and the people movement issue.
0:31:05 > 0:31:08But we are not part of the Schengen arrangement, so actually
0:31:08 > 0:31:12we have the right to empower ourselves not to have the level
0:31:12 > 0:31:16of immigration that was causing quite as much concern as it was.
0:31:16 > 0:31:19So we have that power within our own hands anyway.
0:31:19 > 0:31:22APPLAUSE
0:31:22 > 0:31:23And the woman in the fourth row.
0:31:23 > 0:31:26Yes, you.
0:31:26 > 0:31:29Be brief if you would because we must move onto another point.
0:31:29 > 0:31:31I just don't understand why we are discussing another vote.
0:31:31 > 0:31:34It's not uncommon that politicians, you know, don't tell 100%
0:31:34 > 0:31:36of the truth all the time.
0:31:36 > 0:31:38At a time where there's so much anxiety...
0:31:38 > 0:31:40Really?
0:31:40 > 0:31:46At a time where there's so much anxiety going round and so much fear
0:31:46 > 0:31:49over what's going to become of the future, do not put
0:31:49 > 0:31:49fear into democracy.
0:31:49 > 0:31:50We voted for independence.
0:31:50 > 0:31:54We might not have known the total ins and outs of what it was,
0:31:54 > 0:31:56we voted for independence.
0:31:56 > 0:31:58Don't then put fear into democracy.
0:31:58 > 0:32:00The people voted for what they wanted,
0:32:00 > 0:32:02and don't remove that power from the people.
0:32:02 > 0:32:05APPLAUSE
0:32:05 > 0:32:07Hang on.
0:32:07 > 0:32:10So you trust Parliament to get it right, to interpret what you saw
0:32:10 > 0:32:14as the vote on Brexit?
0:32:14 > 0:32:16I hope Parliament will get it right.
0:32:16 > 0:32:19I wasn't of age to vote but I would have voted Remain.
0:32:19 > 0:32:22However, the public body as a whole voted to leave.
0:32:22 > 0:32:26I hope Parliament will get it right but I don't think sacrificing
0:32:26 > 0:32:29democracy and taking away that power that people were given,
0:32:29 > 0:32:32that we fought so hard for, to change our minds is the right
0:32:32 > 0:32:35thing to do.
0:32:35 > 0:32:37Michelle, what do you make of the point about Corbyn's U-turn,
0:32:37 > 0:32:41as he put it, betraying northern Labour, places like Blackpool
0:32:41 > 0:32:43that voted 67% Brexit?
0:32:43 > 0:32:47Yeah, I completely agree, I think it is a betrayal.
0:32:47 > 0:32:52I think that people voted to leave the European Union.
0:32:52 > 0:32:55And when we're talking about staying in a customs union,
0:32:55 > 0:32:57which doesn't even exist at the moment, we want to create
0:32:57 > 0:33:03our own trade deals.
0:33:03 > 0:33:05We cannot do that in that customs union.
0:33:05 > 0:33:07So the first point, absolutely it is a betrayal
0:33:07 > 0:33:08of what we voted for.
0:33:08 > 0:33:12And to the second point, is it time for a new party, absolutely.
0:33:12 > 0:33:14I am 100% politically homeless at the moment.
0:33:14 > 0:33:16I was in the last election, which is why I ran myself
0:33:16 > 0:33:18as an independent.
0:33:18 > 0:33:22And I feel even more so like that, and I know there is an awful lot
0:33:22 > 0:33:26of people like me that do not have anyone to vote for at all.
0:33:26 > 0:33:32APPLAUSE
0:33:32 > 0:33:34Radzi, are you behind Corbyn on this Labour policy?
0:33:34 > 0:33:40It's just a point on Corbyn generally, which for me is that he's
0:33:40 > 0:33:42damned if he does and he's damned if he doesn't.
0:33:42 > 0:33:45And I feel that for me, Jeremy Corbyn over the last two
0:33:45 > 0:33:48years has had to endure and shoulder a sluice of propaganda.
0:33:48 > 0:33:52Whether it is about his suit, the national anthem,
0:33:52 > 0:33:55his friends in Hezbollah and Hamas.
0:33:55 > 0:33:57AUDIENCE MEMBER SHOUTS.
0:33:57 > 0:34:00That might be your opinion, but for me, the way he's dealt
0:34:00 > 0:34:02with it with honour, with dignity and nobility,
0:34:02 > 0:34:08that is what real leadership is.
0:34:08 > 0:34:10I think we'll move on.
0:34:10 > 0:34:12Can I make a quick point on that?
0:34:12 > 0:34:13Very quick.
0:34:13 > 0:34:16Because I know a lot about forming new political parties and how
0:34:16 > 0:34:17difficult it can be.
0:34:17 > 0:34:18Three or four times!
0:34:18 > 0:34:19Well, well...
0:34:19 > 0:34:20But you know, Ukip was a phenomenon.
0:34:20 > 0:34:23Ukip draw votes.
0:34:23 > 0:34:24You said a quick point.
0:34:24 > 0:34:28The real answer is, yes, Corbyn has betrayed 4 million Brexit voters,
0:34:28 > 0:34:31but the really interesting question, the lady at the back,
0:34:31 > 0:34:36if Brexit gets betrayed there will be a new coming together
0:34:36 > 0:34:39and a new party in British politics, and of that I've got
0:34:39 > 0:34:41no doubt whatsoever.
0:34:41 > 0:34:46It's a taster!
0:34:46 > 0:34:48We'll move on.
0:34:48 > 0:34:50Just to say, Question Time is going to be in London,
0:34:50 > 0:34:52in Westminster next week.
0:34:52 > 0:34:55And after that we are going to be in Dover, the port of Dover.
0:34:55 > 0:34:59If you want to come, on the screen are the details of how to apply.
0:34:59 > 0:35:01I'll give them, as always, at the end.
0:35:01 > 0:35:03But let's change subject now and come to something
0:35:03 > 0:35:08from Carol Henschel, please, let's have your question.
0:35:08 > 0:35:12Is it fair that on two occasions planning permission to frack this
0:35:12 > 0:35:15area was not approved by the Council, and the
0:35:15 > 0:35:19government overruled us?
0:35:19 > 0:35:27CHEERING AND APPLAUSE
0:35:28 > 0:35:30Well, I can see it's a popular question and it's
0:35:30 > 0:35:31a very pertinent one here.
0:35:31 > 0:35:35On the way into Blackpool there are great signs on the roads
0:35:35 > 0:35:37protesting against fracking, and it's a sort of case test,
0:35:37 > 0:35:39really, of whether the whole industry of fracking should
0:35:39 > 0:35:41get the go-ahead.
0:35:41 > 0:35:43If it doesn't get the go-ahead elsewhere,
0:35:43 > 0:35:46should it get the go-ahead here, and is it fair?
0:35:46 > 0:35:49Michelle Dewberry, what do you make of local people saying,
0:35:49 > 0:35:53"We don't want it" and being overruled?
0:35:53 > 0:35:57I think fracking, for whatever reason, it is an industry that has
0:35:57 > 0:36:01completely failed to win over people and to convince people
0:36:01 > 0:36:03of their arguments.
0:36:03 > 0:36:07I think people are concerned about safety.
0:36:07 > 0:36:12People don't want, whether it's earthquakes and big firms denying
0:36:12 > 0:36:15all knowledge and then admitting down the line maybe it is.
0:36:15 > 0:36:19It is a real safety concern, and until those safety concerns
0:36:19 > 0:36:24are properly addressed and people understand what's going on,
0:36:24 > 0:36:26until that point is reached, we've got a problem.
0:36:26 > 0:36:29And I don't understand what it's going to take,
0:36:29 > 0:36:32because it hasn't yet happened that that industry has managed
0:36:32 > 0:36:34to get people bought into what they are doing
0:36:34 > 0:36:37and the benefits of it and addressed their real safety concerns.
0:36:37 > 0:36:40So do you think it's time will come when it's
0:36:40 > 0:36:44being handled more dexterously?
0:36:44 > 0:36:47Or do you think there are real dangers and risks in it,
0:36:47 > 0:36:49like local people here have opined?
0:36:49 > 0:36:53I think it's something that is still not understood enough
0:36:53 > 0:36:57to the degree where we can make a proper informed decision about it.
0:36:57 > 0:36:58And I don't quite understand why.
0:36:58 > 0:37:00It's a very unpopular industry, and I understand
0:37:00 > 0:37:02people's concerns here.
0:37:02 > 0:37:06If it was in my back garden I'd have concerns about it as well.
0:37:06 > 0:37:10But I just think that the industry needs to work closely
0:37:10 > 0:37:12with government regulations and residents to properly
0:37:12 > 0:37:15communicate what it's doing and to reassure those safety
0:37:15 > 0:37:19concerns, if it wants to get the go-ahead.
0:37:19 > 0:37:21Nigel Farage, do you think it's right of government to overrule
0:37:21 > 0:37:24local opinion on this?
0:37:24 > 0:37:27It's right for government to have concerns, and Michelle's point
0:37:27 > 0:37:30about a very effective lobby against fracking.
0:37:30 > 0:37:31They've been very good at it.
0:37:31 > 0:37:34They've been very good at putting the fear of God into people.
0:37:34 > 0:37:36Look, no form of extractive industry doesn't bring some
0:37:36 > 0:37:39degree of risk with it, whether its coal mining,
0:37:39 > 0:37:40whatever it may be.
0:37:40 > 0:37:43We've been fracking since the 1950s.
0:37:43 > 0:37:45America's done more of it than we've done.
0:37:45 > 0:37:47Even we've done a bit of fracking in this country.
0:37:47 > 0:37:51What you have in this part of England is the most phenomenal
0:37:51 > 0:37:55reserves of natural gas.
0:37:55 > 0:37:59Exploited carefully and sensibly it would not leave great
0:37:59 > 0:38:03scars on the landscape, like coal mining did in many areas,
0:38:03 > 0:38:06and it would revolutionise the economy of the north-west
0:38:06 > 0:38:08of England by providing tens of thousands of well-paid jobs.
0:38:08 > 0:38:11We must be mad...
0:38:11 > 0:38:16BOOING
0:38:16 > 0:38:19We must be mad to look a gift horse in the mouth.
0:38:19 > 0:38:20Mad.
0:38:20 > 0:38:21So why is it so unpopular?
0:38:21 > 0:38:24It's unpopular because people don't like things in their back yard,
0:38:24 > 0:38:25obviously, and because the campaign's been
0:38:25 > 0:38:26effective against it.
0:38:26 > 0:38:28But it works.
0:38:28 > 0:38:33There's an interesting parallel between the will of the people vote.
0:38:33 > 0:38:37The will of the people was correct on one and not on the other.
0:38:37 > 0:38:41Mr Farage, £39 billion is a one-off line.
0:38:41 > 0:38:47How many council houses can you buy for £39 billion?
0:38:47 > 0:38:49If people here want it, that's fine.
0:38:49 > 0:38:51If they have a referendum on it, they can decide.
0:38:51 > 0:38:52That's fine.
0:38:52 > 0:38:53All I'm saying is...
0:38:53 > 0:38:54Well, why not?
0:38:54 > 0:38:57Well, that shows you how we can modernise our democracy
0:38:57 > 0:38:58at local level, doesn't it?
0:38:58 > 0:38:59Ken Clarke.
0:38:59 > 0:39:01Well, an astonishing event has taken place.
0:39:01 > 0:39:03I entirely agree with Nigel Farage.
0:39:03 > 0:39:08Don't make it a habit, Ken.
0:39:08 > 0:39:12Nigel, the first time ever we are in total agreement
0:39:12 > 0:39:14and you got loudly booed by the audience for
0:39:14 > 0:39:15giving the answer.
0:39:15 > 0:39:17So my boos were a little more restrained.
0:39:17 > 0:39:19Why are you in favour?
0:39:19 > 0:39:23Well, we have had decades of fracking, and all this
0:39:23 > 0:39:27campaigning about all the dreadful things that are supposed to happen,
0:39:27 > 0:39:29your water will be poisoned, you'll have earthquakes
0:39:29 > 0:39:31and all the rest of it...
0:39:31 > 0:39:32They did have earthquakes.
0:39:32 > 0:39:36The tremor in Blackpool was not detectable by a human
0:39:36 > 0:39:38being on the surface.
0:39:38 > 0:39:40It was a very low-level tremor.
0:39:40 > 0:39:44All right, we'll check this.
0:39:44 > 0:39:47It was described as an earthquake by campaigners but it wasn't.
0:39:47 > 0:39:48Let's just ask.
0:39:48 > 0:39:50Did any of you feel the tremors?
0:39:50 > 0:39:52Put your hands up if you did.
0:39:52 > 0:39:54Well, the National Geological Survey would be very surprised
0:39:54 > 0:39:56by your sensitivity.
0:39:56 > 0:39:58These are very sensitive people.
0:39:58 > 0:40:00The person with the coloured sleeve at the back.
0:40:00 > 0:40:02Yes, you.
0:40:02 > 0:40:05There is a lot of people peddling mistruths and misinformation,
0:40:05 > 0:40:09and Nigel is a perfect example of how he obviously hasn't read up,
0:40:09 > 0:40:12he doesn't know the facts, and I'm absolutely amazed that
0:40:12 > 0:40:14Ken Clarke doesn't either.
0:40:14 > 0:40:17I would have really liked to have thought that you could have stopped
0:40:17 > 0:40:20and read your facts about fracking coming to this area.
0:40:20 > 0:40:23APPLAUSE
0:40:23 > 0:40:27Why are you against fracking?
0:40:27 > 0:40:29My main reason is a bit different from the other locals,
0:40:29 > 0:40:32because I disagree with fracking because it's burning of fossil fuel,
0:40:32 > 0:40:35and I'm so against that, with the environment issues that
0:40:35 > 0:40:38are pertinent at the moment.
0:40:38 > 0:40:42What are we thinking, digging up more fossil fuels?
0:40:42 > 0:40:44But as well as that, it's the local people.
0:40:44 > 0:40:47And the question which was asked, which you haven't really answered,
0:40:47 > 0:40:49is what about the government overturning the will
0:40:49 > 0:40:50of local people?
0:40:50 > 0:40:54APPLAUSE
0:40:54 > 0:40:55There are many things that...
0:40:55 > 0:40:58Of course we have a good local planning system,
0:40:58 > 0:41:01but in big things of national importance the government must
0:41:01 > 0:41:03have a role, particularly nowadays.
0:41:03 > 0:41:07If Isombard Kingdom Brunel decided he wanted to build a railway
0:41:07 > 0:41:12line from London to Bristol today, his advisers will tell him he'd be
0:41:12 > 0:41:15mad going through the planning system because there'd be vast
0:41:15 > 0:41:18opposition all way along the line, everybody would be opposed to it.
0:41:18 > 0:41:21The government had to let him do that.
0:41:21 > 0:41:23It's called HS2.
0:41:23 > 0:41:23It's called HS2.
0:41:23 > 0:41:28Because they get fought by local people, but somebody somewhere has
0:41:28 > 0:41:31got to provide the route for major infrastructure projects.
0:41:31 > 0:41:34We do need runways at airports, we do need to use our own
0:41:34 > 0:41:38oil and gas reserves.
0:41:38 > 0:41:40So what account do you take of local opinion?
0:41:40 > 0:41:41Anything, or none?
0:41:41 > 0:41:43You take account of local opinion.
0:41:43 > 0:41:44And then ignore it?
0:41:44 > 0:41:47You don't ignore it, but if in fact the national interest
0:41:47 > 0:41:52outweighs that and if the local opinion is just rejecting the advice
0:41:52 > 0:41:54of, I already mentioned the National Geological Survey,
0:41:54 > 0:41:57the scientific world, about whether there are risks
0:41:57 > 0:42:00involved in fracking or not, I think a government is entitled
0:42:00 > 0:42:03to say in the national interest we're going ahead.
0:42:03 > 0:42:04Radzi.
0:42:04 > 0:42:08I could not be more opposed to Ken and Nigel, and thank you very much
0:42:08 > 0:42:11at the back for raising that point about the lack of fossil fuels.
0:42:11 > 0:42:14We talk about well blowouts, we talk about it is carbon intensive,
0:42:14 > 0:42:16we talk about the fact that it's water intensive.
0:42:16 > 0:42:19But the bigger issue is that if we are serious about protecting
0:42:19 > 0:42:21this blue marble that we are on, we need to move away
0:42:21 > 0:42:23from fossil fuels and actually embrace renewable energy.
0:42:23 > 0:42:25In this area, there's a lot of wind.
0:42:25 > 0:42:26Why don't we use it?
0:42:26 > 0:42:30APPLAUSE
0:42:30 > 0:42:32Hold on, it's Owen's turn.
0:42:32 > 0:42:34The truth is Nigel is completely wrong.
0:42:34 > 0:42:36The benefits of fracking are totally overblown.
0:42:36 > 0:42:42The volume of jobs will be tiny.
0:42:42 > 0:42:45The reserves that we have are much less than America or France or some
0:42:45 > 0:42:48of the other places where they have shale gas to frack.
0:42:48 > 0:42:50And in some of those places, like France, they've
0:42:50 > 0:42:52decided not to go after it.
0:42:52 > 0:42:56Why did we have the Tories overruling local people?
0:42:56 > 0:42:59Because they decided, around the time of getting elected in 2010,
0:42:59 > 0:43:03that it was a good idea for them to try and mimic the States,
0:43:03 > 0:43:06where they could sell to people as part of their election platform
0:43:06 > 0:43:09that they were going to unveil this great new Industrial Revolution
0:43:09 > 0:43:11and it was going to produce jobs and cheap, free energy,
0:43:11 > 0:43:13practically, in this country.
0:43:13 > 0:43:14All a load of rubbish.
0:43:14 > 0:43:17The other thing they've lied to people about is their suggestion
0:43:17 > 0:43:20that local people and local decisions will be given primacy.
0:43:20 > 0:43:24That clearly hasn't happened here.
0:43:24 > 0:43:26It should have happened, and if it had happened we wouldn't
0:43:26 > 0:43:28have the fracking in Blackpool.
0:43:28 > 0:43:30It wouldn't happen under a Labour government.
0:43:30 > 0:43:32APPLAUSE
0:43:32 > 0:43:40The person there.
0:43:42 > 0:43:45I'd just like to say whatever the jobs are or the economic
0:43:45 > 0:43:47impacts, what Radzi said before about the greenhouse
0:43:47 > 0:43:49gases produced by this, it doesn't matter what jobs you've got,
0:43:49 > 0:43:52what money you've got when we're all dead from global warming.
0:43:52 > 0:43:54That is definitely the main point.
0:43:54 > 0:43:56The German people have had to shut down nuclear power plants
0:43:56 > 0:43:59because they didn't like them, despite the fact that greenhouse gas
0:43:59 > 0:44:00wise it's completely clean.
0:44:00 > 0:44:03And new coal-fired power stations all over Germany.
0:44:03 > 0:44:06And a quarter of the energy we are using in Britain
0:44:06 > 0:44:08today has come from wind, so why haven't the Tories
0:44:08 > 0:44:16invested in wind power?
0:44:32 > 0:44:35Tonight more than ever emphasises the fact of the reliance on gas.
0:44:35 > 0:44:38Everyone in this room is going to go home tonight and put their gas
0:44:38 > 0:44:39central heating on.
0:44:39 > 0:44:41A wind turbine is not going to heat your house.
0:44:41 > 0:44:45And it was a Labour Party, in 2008, that actually got the ball rolling
0:44:45 > 0:44:51on shale gas and issued the exploratory drilling licences.
0:44:51 > 0:44:59So you want to see it happen.Will be good for the local economy,
0:44:59 > 0:45:07pumping in billions of pounds. This is under British regulations, and
0:45:07 > 0:45:13British Gas engineers, the best in the world. We will do it right.
0:45:13 > 0:45:18Brief point.Would the decision have beenover turned in the same way if
0:45:18 > 0:45:25the fracking was taking place south of Watford?OK.
0:45:27 > 0:45:29APPLAUSE That's a good wonder. We will go on.
0:45:29 > 0:45:33I don't know how much time we have got. We will take another question
0:45:33 > 0:45:38from Helen Wright. Pert nept to everybody watching tonight?Is the
0:45:38 > 0:45:43beast from the east more like hysteria from Siberia and should
0:45:43 > 0:45:49bosses expect their staff to turn up at work?OK. What is Labour's view
0:45:49 > 0:45:53on people turning up to work? There are issues about whether you get
0:45:53 > 0:45:57paid or holiday leave. What happens if you can't get to work or are we
0:45:57 > 0:46:01making a fuss about the snow?I'm in this fa of people turning up to
0:46:01 > 0:46:04work. We do in this country make an enormous fuss about the snow. We
0:46:04 > 0:46:09have heard this evening a number of people have died as a result of the
0:46:09 > 0:46:12weather tonight today. I don't think it's been completely overblown this
0:46:12 > 0:46:17time. Some of the scenes in south Wales, where I'm from, looked
0:46:17 > 0:46:20treacherous this evening. Clearly, some of the public services that
0:46:20 > 0:46:24have been closed today, schools etc, I think that is normally sensible.
0:46:24 > 0:46:29Generally, I think we do tend to make a bit too much of a bit of snow
0:46:29 > 0:46:33and quite often people probably could just about get into work. If
0:46:33 > 0:46:38they tried a bit harder.I'm a believer in common sense. I think
0:46:38 > 0:46:43that employers -How do you know what common sense is, I've never
0:46:43 > 0:46:48understood the expression. What everybody thinks, what you think or
0:46:48 > 0:46:51when everybody agrees to you.I speak common sense. If you listen to
0:46:51 > 0:46:54me. Anything I said, that's the best.
0:46:54 > 0:46:56APPLAUSE That's what I thought you Meant.
0:46:56 > 0:47:01Exactly. As an employer you need to implement common sense. It makes no
0:47:01 > 0:47:05sense if a job can be done remotely, if a job is not essential to be done
0:47:05 > 0:47:10that day, then you should be applying common sense to your
0:47:10 > 0:47:15employees. I think sometimes we do go over the top too quickly. When we
0:47:15 > 0:47:20got notifify case of the beast from the east, we were already talking
0:47:20 > 0:47:26about train cancellations and things like that. At that point in time it
0:47:26 > 0:47:30was a... I was doing personal training and they were cancelling
0:47:30 > 0:47:33trains. It wasn't that bad at the beginning. Sometimes we don't need
0:47:33 > 0:47:37to be so quick to cancel everything and worry just apply your common
0:47:37 > 0:47:43sense is my advice.A serious point I'm representing myself. I work for
0:47:43 > 0:47:47a living. When I was a child my money fundamentally brought me and
0:47:47 > 0:47:51my sister up. One of the biggest issues is when school gets cancelled
0:47:51 > 0:47:54someone has to look after me. One big consideration for me is that
0:47:54 > 0:47:58whilst we could apply common sense, we need to consider parents and who
0:47:58 > 0:48:02will look after their children if they are going to be home alone.OK.
0:48:02 > 0:48:04APPLAUSE The woman there. Yes.People are
0:48:04 > 0:48:08saying that it's not a huge issue and it's a little thing, it is a
0:48:08 > 0:48:15huge issue for the lowest earners in society who struggle to heat their
0:48:15 > 0:48:22home and issue for the homeless and the edderly. It's an insult.If we
0:48:22 > 0:48:26had cheap gas as opposed to wind energy they might be able to heat
0:48:26 > 0:48:32their homes. They were cancelling trains before the snow fell. Closing
0:48:32 > 0:48:35schools when there was no snow on the ground but the threat it might
0:48:35 > 0:48:40come and used by people as an excuse not to go to work. Frankly, this
0:48:40 > 0:48:45Storm Emma tonight could dump 18 inches of snow over parts of south
0:48:45 > 0:48:49Wales and the south-west. Common sense dictates the roads will be
0:48:49 > 0:48:53closed. I think we should do our best when it snows or it is windy,
0:48:53 > 0:48:58rather than listen to this hysterical nonsense. Red warnings
0:48:58 > 0:49:02and amber warnings. It's all over the top. We should be a bit more
0:49:02 > 0:49:06stoic. A bit more British and jolly well get on with life.OK. Ken
0:49:06 > 0:49:12Clarke.We used to have a lot more snow in winter I think. Not only my
0:49:12 > 0:49:16recollection I think I accurately recall. Events like today, not quite
0:49:16 > 0:49:22so rare a few years ago. I do think we are getting over excited. I was
0:49:22 > 0:49:25on this programme, I was watching television news to see what had
0:49:25 > 0:49:29happened today, I gave up on the BBC News Channel when their first
0:49:29 > 0:49:33quarter of an hour of the programme was devoted to snow in various parts
0:49:33 > 0:49:41of the country. And I think there are many people who feel themselves
0:49:41 > 0:49:45under a moral obligation to get to work in the snow or the emergency
0:49:45 > 0:49:49services, people working in the healthcare field and so on. I think
0:49:49 > 0:49:55the ordinary person should feel an obligation to get to work if it's
0:49:55 > 0:49:58reasonably sensible to expect them to do so. They shouldn't risk their
0:49:58 > 0:50:02lives or anything of that kind. We've all got here this evening. We
0:50:02 > 0:50:07don't deserve medals for it. It was snowing when I started my journey.
0:50:07 > 0:50:11It wasn't the pleasant way to travel.You may not get home!What
0:50:11 > 0:50:16we should not start doing is closing down public services because the
0:50:16 > 0:50:20weather forecast is bad. We should wait for the snow to arrive before
0:50:20 > 0:50:24people start taking time off work.A couple of points. We will go on to
0:50:24 > 0:50:28another question. You at the back. Did the lady who called it hysteria
0:50:28 > 0:50:32in Siberia was absolutely right. I take the point in south Wales, in
0:50:32 > 0:50:35Scotland, yes, snow is very bad indeed. Here in the north-west not
0:50:35 > 0:50:41at all. People in the local supermarket buying up toilet paper
0:50:41 > 0:50:47on Monday. Not one flake of snowdroped.We have all become snow
0:50:47 > 0:50:53flakes. That's the problem, isn't it!Brexit has changed the political
0:50:53 > 0:50:57atmosphere.I love that toilet paper. Not baked beans. Back to this
0:50:57 > 0:51:01part of the world though and to the whole, the problems of Blackpool and
0:51:01 > 0:51:08the area around. A question from deck can a Terrace.How do we
0:51:08 > 0:51:11encourage more investment in Blackpool to ensure we keep young
0:51:11 > 0:51:15people's talent and skills in their hometown?It should be said
0:51:15 > 0:51:18Blackpool have problems. Problems with mental health. Problems in the
0:51:18 > 0:51:24NHS. It has an economy that has fallen. The fourth most deprived
0:51:24 > 0:51:28local authority on almost every count. It's a part of the country
0:51:28 > 0:51:32that's poorer than the parts around it. Who would like to start on this?
0:51:32 > 0:51:37Ken Clarke. You were a northern powerhouse man. Or part of that
0:51:37 > 0:51:43government.Over the years there has been regional policies.How do you
0:51:43 > 0:51:47encourage investment in in a place like thisPlaces like this key
0:51:47 > 0:51:52things we next neglected for too long. Skills training, education,
0:51:52 > 0:51:56standards achieving good standards of education. More important in
0:51:56 > 0:52:00areas which are having economic difficulty than the prosperous areas
0:52:00 > 0:52:06elsewhere. And how actually can the Government relate to key sectors of
0:52:06 > 0:52:11industry in a way that properly and sensibly promotes their rapid
0:52:11 > 0:52:15growth. We haven't really solved it. I mean, the reason for the present
0:52:15 > 0:52:21anger in politics is we have had, until the financial crash came, the
0:52:21 > 0:52:25greed of the bankers and regulators. We had a good long time when we
0:52:25 > 0:52:29thought we were getting richer and better. Whole lots of people were
0:52:29 > 0:52:35left behind and the economy was changing. In some places the old
0:52:35 > 0:52:38industries, steel and so on were going. In Blackpool the old basis
0:52:38 > 0:52:45for the economy was going. We have to find a new one.
0:52:45 > 0:52:47to find a new one. Industrial strategies are a great thing. We see
0:52:47 > 0:52:54lots of it now. We don't yet know, to be honest, exactly how to go to a
0:52:54 > 0:53:00town whose old economic base has weakened and quickly be begin to
0:53:00 > 0:53:05inject what is needed. Modern employment is needed in Blackpool.
0:53:05 > 0:53:08The task for government is how to make sure to do that more quickly
0:53:08 > 0:53:16than we have in recent years.You sir.25 years ago, in Blackpool, we
0:53:16 > 0:53:22had two world renowned manufacturing companies. TVR cars, based north of
0:53:22 > 0:53:29Blackpool.
0:53:29 > 0:53:32Blackpool. Also a coaches company. They were two of the largest
0:53:32 > 0:53:36employers in this town.They have gone.They have gone.What is your
0:53:36 > 0:53:43view about what should happen?What should happen. I think that the -
0:53:43 > 0:53:48the government seaside -Coastal policy.The coastal policy. We've
0:53:48 > 0:53:52not heard very much apart from sea defences.You sir, quickly. We have
0:53:52 > 0:53:56a few minutes.We may have some of the problems that Ken Clarke
0:53:56 > 0:54:01outlined in Blackpool. We have got a wonderful town and a place that
0:54:01 > 0:54:06gives millions and millions of people hours of fun. Millions of
0:54:06 > 0:54:10people will still come back to Blackpool in their droves.Nigel
0:54:10 > 0:54:17Farage.Let's get back our waters and the fish that swim in our seas.
0:54:17 > 0:54:22That will benefit the north-west considerably.
0:54:22 > 0:54:24Secondly, you know, you should never just tell an audience
0:54:24 > 0:54:27what you think they want to hear, tell them what you really think.
0:54:27 > 0:54:31You're looking a gift horse in the mouth with
0:54:31 > 0:54:32the shale gas industry.
0:54:32 > 0:54:34It will revolutionise the economy of this area.
0:54:34 > 0:54:36I'm sorry you don't like it.
0:54:36 > 0:54:38Radzi Chanyanganya.
0:54:38 > 0:54:44I come from Wolverhampton, I think very similar problems
0:54:44 > 0:54:46in Wolverhampton which happen in Blackpool, and one
0:54:46 > 0:54:50of the big ones in education.
0:54:50 > 0:54:53I think if you don't educate people, peole don't feel like
0:54:53 > 0:54:54they have an opportunity to succeed.
0:54:54 > 0:54:57I happen to think I have the best mother on the planet.
0:54:57 > 0:55:01She's instilled within me a belief I can do anything I put my mind to.
0:55:01 > 0:55:04Whatever we can do to give young people that belief in themselves,
0:55:04 > 0:55:06I think that's what will make Blackpool prosper.
0:55:06 > 0:55:07The woman here, briefly if you would.
0:55:07 > 0:55:12Hi, a major problem in Blackpool is education.
0:55:12 > 0:55:1710% in the country, our education, our schools are failing.
0:55:17 > 0:55:20How can we, when we are all being academised,
0:55:20 > 0:55:24work towards giving our children a greater education?
0:55:24 > 0:55:27OK, we are of course in an academy here as it happens in Blackpool.
0:55:27 > 0:55:28Yes, we are.
0:55:28 > 0:55:29Michelle, what do you think?
0:55:29 > 0:55:32First of all, I think Brexit presents a great opportunity.
0:55:32 > 0:55:40We're taking a lot of power back from Brussels, hopefully.
0:55:44 > 0:55:47I would like to see, instead of all that power going
0:55:47 > 0:55:50into London, I would like to see proper devolution so that actual
0:55:50 > 0:55:57northern place cans create prosperity amongst themselves
0:55:57 > 0:56:00I'm from Hull, I've had many, many be a good girls
0:56:00 > 0:56:02weekend out in Blackpool.
0:56:02 > 0:56:02It was wonderful.
0:56:02 > 0:56:03I've got wonderful memories.
0:56:03 > 0:56:05Blackpool should be in a position to prosper.
0:56:05 > 0:56:11When we talk about education, I feel very strongly about this.
0:56:11 > 0:56:13I work with a group of technical schools, called UTCs,
0:56:13 > 0:56:15we join up with employers with schools and we have
0:56:15 > 0:56:19employer-led curriculums and what we try to do is create
0:56:19 > 0:56:22a workforce that's ready and right for the local economy,
0:56:22 > 0:56:25and also what you should be working with young people as well
0:56:25 > 0:56:28to stimulate entrepreneurialism.
0:56:28 > 0:56:31Giving them that belief they can create their own opportunity as well
0:56:31 > 0:56:32where ever they live.
0:56:32 > 0:56:35Owen Smith, I've to ask you to be brief, I'm afraid.
0:56:35 > 0:56:37Governments have to recognise it's got a responsibility
0:56:37 > 0:56:42to fix these problems.
0:56:42 > 0:56:44Instead of cutting back public services and cutting back
0:56:44 > 0:56:46investment, we've got to enausterity, which has completely
0:56:46 > 0:56:48failed and invest once more in our communities.
0:56:48 > 0:56:50How would it help Blackpool?
0:56:50 > 0:56:52We should have a regional investment structure,
0:56:52 > 0:56:55a banking structure that puts money, government money, into areas,
0:56:55 > 0:56:58like Blackpool, in areas like south Wales, the ex-industrial areas
0:56:58 > 0:56:59of this country.
0:56:59 > 0:57:01Recognise the skills that are here in manufacturing.
0:57:01 > 0:57:09Capitalise on that with a real active industrial strategy that
0:57:10 > 0:57:13pushes jobs and incentivises the public sector and private-sector
0:57:13 > 0:57:14to invest and invest in skills.
0:57:14 > 0:57:15Young people.
0:57:15 > 0:57:18Don't cut back spending on schools or cut back spending on university
0:57:18 > 0:57:20education or cut back on support for schools generally.
0:57:20 > 0:57:22Invest in our young people.
0:57:22 > 0:57:25That's the secret, and we've seen the reverse of that from the Tories
0:57:25 > 0:57:26under the last seven years.
0:57:26 > 0:57:29We've got to get back to investing in the people
0:57:29 > 0:57:30in all of our communities.
0:57:30 > 0:57:31APPLAUSE.
0:57:31 > 0:57:33Our hour is up, I'm afraid.
0:57:33 > 0:57:38Apologies to those who have your hands up.
0:57:38 > 0:57:40But our time is up, we have is stop.
0:57:40 > 0:57:42We're going to be in Westminster next Thursday with Question Time.
0:57:42 > 0:57:50We have the International Trade Secretary Liam Fox on the panel,
0:57:50 > 0:57:53George the Poet and the Bake Off judge Prue Leith on that panel.
0:57:53 > 0:57:56The week after we're going to be in the port of Dover and that's
0:57:56 > 0:57:59a suitable place to be, it marks one year to go
0:57:59 > 0:58:00until the UK leaves the EU.
0:58:00 > 0:58:03I don't know if we'll be talking about the EU
0:58:03 > 0:58:04again, but maybe we will.
0:58:04 > 0:58:07Call 0330 123 99 88 if you would like to come to either
0:58:07 > 0:58:08of those two programmes.
0:58:08 > 0:58:11On the screen is the address, the website, if you want
0:58:11 > 0:58:12to go to that instead.
0:58:12 > 0:58:15And if you want to talk about the things we've been
0:58:15 > 0:58:16talking about tonight, there's this excellent continuation
0:58:16 > 0:58:19on Question Time Extra Time with Adrian Chiles on 5 Live,
0:58:19 > 0:58:20now on the radio.
0:58:20 > 0:58:22You can also watch it by pushing the Red Button.
0:58:22 > 0:58:24You can watch it on the BBC iPlayer.
0:58:24 > 0:58:27So I hope you'll be able to do that.
0:58:27 > 0:58:30My thanks to this panel and to all of you -
0:58:30 > 0:58:34I was going to say who made it through the snow, but there hasn't
0:58:34 > 0:58:35been any snow in Blackpool.
0:58:35 > 0:58:38But to all of you who came here tonight to take part in this
0:58:38 > 0:58:39edition of Question Time.
0:58:39 > 0:58:41Until next Thursday, good night.
0:58:41 > 0:58:47APPLAUSE