0:00:01 > 0:00:03Tonight, we are in Westminster, just by the Houses of Parliament.
0:00:03 > 0:00:11And welcome to Question Time.
0:00:15 > 0:00:18And on our panel tonight, the former GP, Defence Secretary,
0:00:18 > 0:00:20now Secretary of State for International Development,
0:00:20 > 0:00:26the Brexit-loving Liam Fox, whose air miles seeking trade deals
0:00:26 > 0:00:31would so far have taken him to the moon, but not back yet.
0:00:31 > 0:00:34One of Labour's new MPs, elected last year but already
0:00:34 > 0:00:39into a job as Shadow Minister for Labour, Laura Pidcock.
0:00:39 > 0:00:41Roma Agrawal, a structural engineer who worked on the Shard
0:00:41 > 0:00:44here in London, a campaigner for getting more women
0:00:44 > 0:00:46into engineering.
0:00:46 > 0:00:49George Mpanga, who grew up on a south London estate,
0:00:49 > 0:00:52turned from rapping to poetry when studying at Cambridge
0:00:52 > 0:00:57University and now universally known as George the Poet.
0:00:57 > 0:01:02And the chef, restauranter, writer, businesswoman and judge
0:01:02 > 0:01:05on the Great British Bake Off, Prue Leith, known just for
0:01:05 > 0:01:13tonight as Prue the cook.
0:01:23 > 0:01:24Thank you very much.
0:01:24 > 0:01:27As always, if you want to get engaged in the argument that's
0:01:27 > 0:01:30going on here in this hall, do so by using #BBCQT
0:01:30 > 0:01:31on Twitter or Facebook.
0:01:31 > 0:01:33Let's have our first question, and it comes
0:01:33 > 0:01:34from Marcus Gray, please.
0:01:34 > 0:01:36Marcus.
0:01:36 > 0:01:39If the incident in Salisbury is proven to have links to Russia,
0:01:39 > 0:01:42what action do we need to take?
0:01:42 > 0:01:44Liam Fox.
0:01:44 > 0:01:48Well, the first thing is that we mustn't jump to conclusions.
0:01:48 > 0:01:51Our thoughts should be with those who have suffered
0:01:51 > 0:01:53in the way that they have.
0:01:53 > 0:01:55It's a despicable crime.
0:01:55 > 0:02:00It's a ghastly thing to happen, physically.
0:02:00 > 0:02:04It's clearly a very brazen crime committed in our country.
0:02:04 > 0:02:09And it's worth pointing out that it's not easy to make nerve agents,
0:02:09 > 0:02:14so it's unlikely to be someone just operating as a backroom terrorist,
0:02:14 > 0:02:20so it's likely to be a much more preconceived attack.
0:02:20 > 0:02:26But it's impossible at this point to say.
0:02:26 > 0:02:27There is a police investigation.
0:02:27 > 0:02:30And in such important issues where there is so much at stake,
0:02:30 > 0:02:34it's all the more important that we wait until we've got
0:02:34 > 0:02:35information before we jump in.
0:02:35 > 0:02:37Well, Boris Johnson didn't wait, did he?
0:02:37 > 0:02:39Boris Johnson said we should cancel the football cup.
0:02:39 > 0:02:43No, he said, in fact, that we had to wait until the end of the police
0:02:43 > 0:02:45investigation to see...
0:02:45 > 0:02:47But if Russia was involved we'd have to consider that.
0:02:47 > 0:02:48If Russia...
0:02:48 > 0:02:51And Amber Rudd, the Home Secretary, said today if Russia was involved
0:02:51 > 0:02:53there's all kinds of things we should do.
0:02:53 > 0:02:54He says, "if".
0:02:54 > 0:02:57The question is, what action can be taken or could be
0:02:57 > 0:03:02taken against Russia?
0:03:02 > 0:03:06Well, if Russia was involved, we can look at the sort of things
0:03:06 > 0:03:08that we did after the Litvinenko case, where people were
0:03:08 > 0:03:10expelled from the country, when we stopped our cooperation.
0:03:10 > 0:03:13We already have sanctions on Russia because of their behaviour
0:03:13 > 0:03:17elsewhere, because of the illegal annexation of the Crimea.
0:03:17 > 0:03:19We can always look to what is happening with that.
0:03:19 > 0:03:22But I make the point again, this is a very important issue.
0:03:22 > 0:03:24It's important to keep the temperature down
0:03:24 > 0:03:26until we actually know the facts.
0:03:26 > 0:03:27There is too much at stake.
0:03:27 > 0:03:31I would say that measured tone is actually quite damaging,
0:03:31 > 0:03:36when you look at a system in which Putin or the Kremlin has
0:03:36 > 0:03:40been able to pretty much run amok, and every time an incident like this
0:03:40 > 0:03:43comes up there are these strong talks about sanctions
0:03:43 > 0:03:44and consequences.
0:03:44 > 0:03:47And he doesn't seem to bat an eyelid.
0:03:47 > 0:03:51In honesty, if you look at the Litvinenko situation a while ago,
0:03:51 > 0:03:53sanctions only followed...
0:03:53 > 0:03:55Sanctions were only imposed following escalations,
0:03:55 > 0:03:58like you said, of their behaviour elsewhere.
0:03:58 > 0:04:02And again, not much seems to happen.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05So I think it doesn't create the greatest impression
0:04:05 > 0:04:09when you take a measured tone and the cynicism that
0:04:09 > 0:04:11sits within most of us is justified at a later stage.
0:04:11 > 0:04:17APPLAUSE
0:04:17 > 0:04:20Laura Pidcock.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23I think that I do want to stay grounded and not speculate too much,
0:04:23 > 0:04:26because yes, a nerve agent has been found but there isn't a connection
0:04:26 > 0:04:28at this point in time.
0:04:28 > 0:04:32And I can understand the past that makes us assume it might be Russia
0:04:32 > 0:04:33but I think we mustn't do that.
0:04:33 > 0:04:36I'm not going to do a Boris and make policy on the hoof and say
0:04:36 > 0:04:38that we should not go to the World Cup,
0:04:38 > 0:04:40or do this or do that.
0:04:40 > 0:04:42Actually, if it is found that Russia was involved,
0:04:42 > 0:04:45there need to be really robust diplomatic conversations
0:04:45 > 0:04:47that take place.
0:04:47 > 0:04:50This idea that you kind of bomb first and talk later,
0:04:50 > 0:04:54that is not a strategy that the Labour Party would employ.
0:04:54 > 0:04:56But we have to stay really, really grounded.
0:04:56 > 0:04:58There is something the government can do.
0:04:58 > 0:05:00They could include financial sanctions in the money-laundering
0:05:00 > 0:05:02bill against dirty money, against those who act
0:05:02 > 0:05:07against human rights violations in other countries,
0:05:07 > 0:05:09and they are not doing that now.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12You are not willing to do that now.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15Part of the issue with that is that a lot of the time the financial
0:05:15 > 0:05:19sanctions that are imposed are actually imposed on enemies
0:05:19 > 0:05:23of the Kremlin who are only here to wash their money.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25That's the first thing.
0:05:25 > 0:05:28And then secondly, if you look at Labour's track record as well,
0:05:28 > 0:05:32I remember just after the fiasco with Georgia we had David Miliband
0:05:32 > 0:05:35expressing solidarity in his words with the Georgian people,
0:05:35 > 0:05:40and then later in the year being in Russia saying that, you know,
0:05:40 > 0:05:41that was just a discrepancy.
0:05:41 > 0:05:44I think he called it a respectful disagreement.
0:05:44 > 0:05:46This is what I'm saying about that political speech.
0:05:46 > 0:05:49A lot of that flip-flopping doesn't really bode well in the long term.
0:05:49 > 0:05:51APPLAUSE
0:05:51 > 0:05:54The woman up there, third row from the back.
0:05:54 > 0:05:57It was stated on the news today that there are possibly another
0:05:57 > 0:05:5814 similar incidents.
0:05:58 > 0:06:00Do the panel have any information on that?
0:06:00 > 0:06:03And I'm tending to agree with George.
0:06:03 > 0:06:07Yes, the Home Secretary, I think, referred to those other allegations
0:06:07 > 0:06:10which BuzzFeed have got 14 of them.
0:06:10 > 0:06:12Yes.
0:06:12 > 0:06:13I don't think you'll find information from
0:06:13 > 0:06:15anyone on this panel.
0:06:15 > 0:06:17I don't think anybody has any information.
0:06:17 > 0:06:21Prue Leith, what do you think about the question that was asked?
0:06:21 > 0:06:25The only thing I'd like to add - I agree with what has been said -
0:06:25 > 0:06:30is that it would be a great pity if we use sport to punish
0:06:30 > 0:06:37the Russians in this way, because sport should be the one area
0:06:37 > 0:06:42of human activity, if you like, that should be not politicised,
0:06:42 > 0:06:46because it's about pleasure and coming together.
0:06:46 > 0:06:50And it should be the thing that makes peace.
0:06:50 > 0:06:52So I would not like Boris' solution.
0:06:52 > 0:06:54I think we should have sanctions and fines...
0:06:54 > 0:06:58If they are found to be involved.
0:06:58 > 0:07:02Would it be any punishment to withdraw football from,
0:07:02 > 0:07:06British football from the World Cup, really, for the Russians?
0:07:06 > 0:07:07No.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10It wouldn't be much punishment.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13It would be a hollow gesture and it would be damaging,
0:07:13 > 0:07:17because sport should not be politicised.
0:07:17 > 0:07:23APPLAUSE
0:07:23 > 0:07:25I would be interested to understand the panel's views
0:07:25 > 0:07:27on the escalation routes.
0:07:27 > 0:07:30My perception is that the sanctions don't appear to be working.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33We obviously don't want to go to war either, and withdrawing
0:07:33 > 0:07:39from a football competition may not be very effective.
0:07:39 > 0:07:41But Russia is running amok with all of the things
0:07:41 > 0:07:45that they are doing in Syria, ignoring UN votes and
0:07:45 > 0:07:47the potential issue here.
0:07:47 > 0:07:50So there must be something other than sanctions that we could do.
0:07:50 > 0:07:53Roma Agrawal.
0:07:53 > 0:07:56I can't really comment in terms of sanctions and stuff,
0:07:56 > 0:07:57not being a politician.
0:07:57 > 0:07:59But I think in terms of this situation in Salisbury
0:07:59 > 0:08:02that we are looking at, I really think we need to let
0:08:02 > 0:08:04the police do their job and conclude their investigation.
0:08:04 > 0:08:07And I'm definitely not in favour of any knee-jerk reactions.
0:08:07 > 0:08:11And once we do have the results of that investigation forward,
0:08:11 > 0:08:14we need to allow government to make the decision of what
0:08:14 > 0:08:18the right path is.
0:08:18 > 0:08:21I suppose the question is, is there anything that can be done
0:08:21 > 0:08:23that would influence one way or another Putin's behaviour?
0:08:23 > 0:08:25Because we've had sanctions after Crimea, we had Ukraine,
0:08:25 > 0:08:30and it doesn't seem to have had any effect at all.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33I think the only thing that Mr Putin understands is strength,
0:08:33 > 0:08:40which is why I think we've been right to put our tanks and troops
0:08:40 > 0:08:42and Typhoons into Estonia to make sure that Russia's border
0:08:42 > 0:08:44with Nato is secured.
0:08:44 > 0:08:47If you go to Estonia or you go to Poland,
0:08:47 > 0:08:49the world looks very different from how it looks in London.
0:08:49 > 0:08:50The threat looks very different.
0:08:50 > 0:08:52It's therefore essential that we maintain the integrity
0:08:52 > 0:08:55of Nato, that we maintain our defence spending.
0:08:55 > 0:08:58And it's necessary for Europe to do more.
0:08:58 > 0:09:01If you look inside the total Nato budget, the US population
0:09:01 > 0:09:05as a proportion of Nato is 35%.
0:09:05 > 0:09:07The contribution to the budget is 72%.
0:09:07 > 0:09:10The EU countries that are in Nato make up 52%,
0:09:10 > 0:09:12but only 24% of Nato spending.
0:09:12 > 0:09:16European countries have to show commitment to their own defence.
0:09:16 > 0:09:18We've made that commitment in the UK by spending 2%,
0:09:18 > 0:09:21but European countries have to do more about continental
0:09:21 > 0:09:23Europe's defence.
0:09:23 > 0:09:28Yes, you, sir.
0:09:28 > 0:09:31I think the main problem when you talk about strength
0:09:31 > 0:09:37is we only have a 2% defence budget, and we're now talking
0:09:37 > 0:09:39about further cuts.
0:09:39 > 0:09:42I mean, surely that's not a show of strength and we should actually
0:09:42 > 0:09:44be doing something more about that.
0:09:44 > 0:09:47Strength doesn't always have to be military force?
0:09:47 > 0:09:49APPLAUSE
0:09:49 > 0:09:51It doesn't always have to be about aggression
0:09:51 > 0:09:52towards other countries.
0:09:52 > 0:09:54I'm a firm believer in diplomatic solutions to these
0:09:54 > 0:09:55very tense situation.
0:09:55 > 0:09:56We know.
0:09:56 > 0:09:59Of course, Labour would leave us defenceless when they want to scrap
0:09:59 > 0:10:00Trident and things like that.
0:10:00 > 0:10:02Hang on!
0:10:02 > 0:10:06I think that's just the most preposterous suggestion
0:10:06 > 0:10:09that the Labour Party would leave us without a British Army.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11We are not the ones that are cutting the British Army.
0:10:11 > 0:10:14We are not the ones that are leaving our soldiers
0:10:14 > 0:10:18without the protection they need when they are overseas.
0:10:18 > 0:10:21So that's a complete myth and rumour that's propagated.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24The woman in green.
0:10:24 > 0:10:29So a former Foreign Office Minister said that our position out of the EU
0:10:29 > 0:10:31has made us more vulnerable to attack from the Kremlin
0:10:31 > 0:10:34and externally.
0:10:34 > 0:10:36How do we know that, post-Brexit, our safety
0:10:36 > 0:10:38is going to be safeguarded?
0:10:38 > 0:10:40Outside Europe.
0:10:40 > 0:10:43George.
0:10:43 > 0:10:48I think the difficult truth is that as the public we are not operating
0:10:48 > 0:10:50with enough information.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53For example, going back to what Liam just said
0:10:53 > 0:10:58about maintaining the defence budget and showing strength.
0:10:58 > 0:11:03That would imply that we have some sort of clout in the face
0:11:03 > 0:11:07of whatever Russia has been working on behind closed doors.
0:11:07 > 0:11:10And these are things that we have no idea about.
0:11:10 > 0:11:13So I feel like your feeling of insecurity is justified.
0:11:13 > 0:11:16Frankly, I don't think Liam's going to give
0:11:16 > 0:11:18you a straightforward answer to that question.
0:11:18 > 0:11:21APPLAUSE
0:11:21 > 0:11:24Well, hold on.
0:11:24 > 0:11:26Give a straightforward answer in just a moment
0:11:26 > 0:11:29but I want to go to the woman there.
0:11:29 > 0:11:31Do we have any leadership that is strong enough
0:11:31 > 0:11:34to face off against Putin, and is it time to bring back
0:11:34 > 0:11:38Reagan-esque type leadership?
0:11:38 > 0:11:39Go on a bit.
0:11:39 > 0:11:40What do you mean by that?
0:11:40 > 0:11:43Well, does either side, Labour or Conservative,
0:11:43 > 0:11:48feel that their leaders are strong enough to face off against Putin?
0:11:48 > 0:11:50Liam Fox, last brief word.
0:11:50 > 0:11:53The question I go back to is that it is our
0:11:53 > 0:11:54collective strength.
0:11:54 > 0:11:57Our strength lies in acting together as Nato.
0:11:57 > 0:11:58We are the world's fourth biggest defence budget,
0:11:58 > 0:12:02the world's fourth biggest defence force, but we need partners to carry
0:12:02 > 0:12:04some of that burden with us.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06We have to understand about Mr Putin.
0:12:06 > 0:12:09Mr Putin believes in two things that make it impossible for him
0:12:09 > 0:12:12to be part of the normal family of nations.
0:12:12 > 0:12:14First of all, he believes in the concept of a "near abroad",
0:12:14 > 0:12:17the old Soviet concept that Russia should have control
0:12:17 > 0:12:19over its near neighbours and their economic and foreign
0:12:19 > 0:12:21and security policies.
0:12:21 > 0:12:22That's unacceptable to us.
0:12:22 > 0:12:26Secondly, he believes that the defence of Russian citizens
0:12:26 > 0:12:29lies in the Kremlin, not in the legal systems
0:12:29 > 0:12:31where they live.
0:12:31 > 0:12:35That is also unacceptable because it makes any country with Russian
0:12:35 > 0:12:37citizens in it vulnerable to Kremlin doctrine.
0:12:37 > 0:12:40We have got to understand that the Russian regime is a very
0:12:40 > 0:12:41dark and dangerous regime.
0:12:41 > 0:12:43It's very difficult to have the sort of diplomatic relations
0:12:43 > 0:12:45that we would want to have.
0:12:45 > 0:12:46Ratchet up the tension.
0:12:46 > 0:12:48Dark and dangerous.
0:12:48 > 0:12:49Well, it is.
0:12:49 > 0:12:50I'm sorry.
0:12:50 > 0:12:52You can't just out nice Mr Putin.
0:12:52 > 0:12:54I'm not.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57There are dangers we have to face up to and deal with them.
0:12:57 > 0:13:03APPLAUSE
0:13:03 > 0:13:05And what about the Saudi Arabian regime?
0:13:05 > 0:13:07How would you describe that?
0:13:07 > 0:13:10We may come to that, so let's not go down that road.
0:13:10 > 0:13:12But you were saying he was ratcheting up...
0:13:12 > 0:13:15Tensions, essentially.
0:13:15 > 0:13:17The question was about leadership and strength.
0:13:17 > 0:13:19I don't think strength is inextricably linked
0:13:19 > 0:13:21with military action.
0:13:21 > 0:13:24I think it takes strength to go in a room and be very strong
0:13:24 > 0:13:26about what your red lines are, whatever they are, without
0:13:26 > 0:13:28committing to military action.
0:13:28 > 0:13:30We are speculating here.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33We still don't know whether Russia was involved.
0:13:33 > 0:13:34We're not speculating about Mr Litvinenko.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37Go and tell him that you can be nice to Mr Putin.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40And that should be condemned, of course it should.
0:13:40 > 0:13:42The man up there and then we'll move the next question.
0:13:42 > 0:13:43Thank you.
0:13:43 > 0:13:45If Russia is a dark and dangerous regime,
0:13:45 > 0:13:48will you be going and formulating a trade deal with them post-Brexit?
0:13:48 > 0:13:53All right, we will come to trade.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56We'll move on, because we get to trade.
0:13:56 > 0:13:59Before we do, for those of you able to come to Dover next Thursday,
0:13:59 > 0:14:03or Leeds the week after that, that's where Question Time is going to be,
0:14:03 > 0:14:07in Leeds with an audience all under 30 years old.
0:14:07 > 0:14:09On screen are the details of how to apply.
0:14:09 > 0:14:13I will give them again at the end.
0:14:13 > 0:14:15Let's go to Trump and trade and Russia and trade.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18Warren Wynne, let's have your question.
0:14:18 > 0:14:21In light of Donald Trump's love of trade wars, will the UK come off
0:14:21 > 0:14:26badly in trade deals with the USA post-Brexit?
0:14:26 > 0:14:29Yes, with Donald Trump's love of trade wars, America first
0:14:29 > 0:14:33and the tariffs being imposed on steel and aluminium,
0:14:33 > 0:14:39will we come off badly once we're outside the EU?
0:14:39 > 0:14:41I'm not going to come to you first, Liam Fox.
0:14:41 > 0:14:45I'll come to you, Laura.
0:14:45 > 0:14:49I think that there are many things that worry me about trade agreements
0:14:49 > 0:14:54outside of the European Union.
0:14:54 > 0:14:59First of all, that we actually don't know what is up for grabs.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02It would worry me immensely if the NHS or our public services
0:15:02 > 0:15:08were up for grabs in trade deals, like a TTIP situation.
0:15:08 > 0:15:10That would be a nightmare and I think that's one
0:15:10 > 0:15:13of the reasons that the Labour Party has committed to a customs union,
0:15:13 > 0:15:17that actually that's about committing to jobs
0:15:17 > 0:15:19and protecting jobs.
0:15:19 > 0:15:21I think it's much harder when Donald Trump is suggesting
0:15:21 > 0:15:2325% tariffs on steel, an industry...
0:15:23 > 0:15:31I represent a constituency that had a steelworks.
0:15:32 > 0:15:34An industry that had already been decimated over many years.
0:15:34 > 0:15:37To imply that sanctions should be put on is very, very dangerous.
0:15:37 > 0:15:39You know, there's 32,000 people's jobs at risk.
0:15:39 > 0:15:42And it's important that we are able to work collectively in the face
0:15:42 > 0:15:49of that kind of protectionism.
0:15:49 > 0:15:53But does it suggest we will get good trade deals outside the EU, to you?
0:15:53 > 0:15:55If you take the Labour Party's position of having a customs union.
0:15:55 > 0:15:58I think it's much harder if you are outside of any agreement
0:15:58 > 0:16:00and you're having to work on your own.
0:16:00 > 0:16:01That's just common sense.
0:16:01 > 0:16:02Prue Leith?
0:16:02 > 0:16:10APPLAUSE.
0:16:10 > 0:16:15I think that Trump's little twitters, tweets, don't matter.
0:16:15 > 0:16:17I'm not the person to talk about tweets, actually.
0:16:17 > 0:16:23But I'll risk it.
0:16:23 > 0:16:31I mean, he's already rode back a bit.
0:16:32 > 0:16:35He suddenly realised that 6% of all US steel comes from Canada.
0:16:35 > 0:16:37So he thinks, oh, OK, he tweets again and he says
0:16:37 > 0:16:44I'll exempt Canada.
0:16:44 > 0:16:50So I don't think we should worry too much yet, because you never know how
0:16:50 > 0:16:51much will change his mind.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54But I think there is no reason at all why we shouldn't
0:16:54 > 0:16:56do good trade deals, in or out of the EU.
0:16:56 > 0:16:57In fact, we've always...
0:16:57 > 0:17:00Think I'm about the only person who is old enough here to remember
0:17:00 > 0:17:08there was a life before we were in the EU.
0:17:09 > 0:17:10APPLAUSE.
0:17:10 > 0:17:14How did you vote on the Brexit issue?
0:17:14 > 0:17:16I ended up voting for Brexit.
0:17:16 > 0:17:18But I dithered and dithered, because I think there are really
0:17:18 > 0:17:21good arguments on both sides, there are really intelligent
0:17:21 > 0:17:23people on both sides, good people on both sides.
0:17:23 > 0:17:25Which is such a pity, that we have everybody
0:17:25 > 0:17:33fighting each other.
0:17:34 > 0:17:36We should stop refighting the referendum, get behind
0:17:36 > 0:17:39the leader that the Tories, after all, they voted for Mrs May,
0:17:39 > 0:17:41they should show some loyalty, help the poor woman get
0:17:41 > 0:17:46on and do the deal.
0:17:46 > 0:17:48I think what we need is her doing the best we can,
0:17:48 > 0:17:52which I think she is a strong woman and I think she can do it well,
0:17:52 > 0:17:54and everybody else pulling with her.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57And we're going down the Brexit road, so could we all just
0:17:57 > 0:17:58agree to make it work?
0:17:58 > 0:17:59Apparently not.
0:17:59 > 0:18:07APPLAUSE.
0:18:10 > 0:18:13So, have you been on to the Americans to ask them what the hell
0:18:13 > 0:18:15they are on about with this tariff they are imposing,
0:18:15 > 0:18:18or suggesting imposing?
0:18:18 > 0:18:20Literally as you speak the United States is making
0:18:20 > 0:18:23the announcement about what they intend to do over tariffs.
0:18:23 > 0:18:26I've spoken to them several times over the last few days.
0:18:26 > 0:18:28In fact, I'm going to Washington next week to take
0:18:28 > 0:18:31the discussions further.
0:18:31 > 0:18:34And what is it they are saying, literally as we speak?
0:18:34 > 0:18:36Well, we don't know, David, because we are in here,
0:18:36 > 0:18:40they are out there.
0:18:40 > 0:18:42And you don't know what they're going to say?
0:18:42 > 0:18:45Are you saying you don't know what they're going to say?
0:18:45 > 0:18:46No, I...
0:18:46 > 0:18:47You've had no assurances?
0:18:47 > 0:18:49I don't know exactly what they're going to say,
0:18:49 > 0:18:52but it is clear there is going to be some form of tariff
0:18:52 > 0:18:53and potentially being introduced.
0:18:53 > 0:18:56Now, there is clearly a problem in steel in the world.
0:18:56 > 0:18:58There is an overproduction, largely coming from China.
0:18:58 > 0:18:59There is also what is called transshipment.
0:18:59 > 0:19:02Countries in Central America, for example, with no steel
0:19:02 > 0:19:04industries, are suddenly selling steel into the United States.
0:19:04 > 0:19:07And if we want a rules-based trading system, we have to make sure
0:19:07 > 0:19:08the rules are obeyed.
0:19:08 > 0:19:11At the way the United States is going about this is wrong.
0:19:11 > 0:19:13Because they are doing it under what is called the 232,
0:19:13 > 0:19:15an investigation based on national security.
0:19:15 > 0:19:18For the UK, it is doubly absurd, because we are only responsible
0:19:18 > 0:19:21for 1% of American's steel imports.
0:19:21 > 0:19:27It is 5% of our tonnage by steel that we produce here, 15% by value.
0:19:27 > 0:19:30The reason though the differences that we tend to produce
0:19:30 > 0:19:32very high value steel, some of which can't be sourced
0:19:32 > 0:19:38in the United States and will simply push the price of steel there.
0:19:38 > 0:19:40We also make steel for the American military programme.
0:19:40 > 0:19:43So it's doubly absurd that we should be caught on an investigation
0:19:43 > 0:19:47on national security.
0:19:47 > 0:19:49So our view is, yes, we can deal multilaterally
0:19:49 > 0:19:52with the overproduction of steel, but this is the wrong
0:19:52 > 0:19:56way to go about it.
0:19:56 > 0:19:57Protectionism, tariffs never really work.
0:19:57 > 0:20:00If you think about it, there are 140,000 American steelworkers.
0:20:00 > 0:20:01There are 6.5 million people in America work
0:20:01 > 0:20:07in steel related industries.
0:20:07 > 0:20:11For the prices to go up of steel, their input prices, it makes no
0:20:11 > 0:20:12sense in the long run.
0:20:12 > 0:20:13So, will we be exempt?
0:20:13 > 0:20:16Well, we'll have to wait and see what the announcements are.
0:20:16 > 0:20:19We will wait to see if there is a time for negotiation.
0:20:19 > 0:20:22That is why I'm going to Washington next week.
0:20:23 > 0:20:26OK. George?
0:20:26 > 0:20:28I think part of the challenge with Mr Trump's announcements
0:20:28 > 0:20:31is that, like a lot of what he says, it changes the atmosphere,
0:20:31 > 0:20:33it changes the climate on the global stage.
0:20:33 > 0:20:35So when you have that reaction from Europe,
0:20:35 > 0:20:38listing all of the things that will now have extra duties slapped
0:20:38 > 0:20:40on them from the American side, again, that changes the rhetoric.
0:20:40 > 0:20:44Now we are in danger of a trade war.
0:20:44 > 0:20:49Perfect timing, with Brexit, we will be caught in the middle of that.
0:20:49 > 0:20:54Again, to speak to the earlier appoint about political speaking,
0:20:54 > 0:20:56downplaying people's concerns, I think that feeds the disconnect
0:20:56 > 0:20:58that there might be between politicians and many members
0:20:58 > 0:21:01of the public who feel justifiably concerned.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04APPLAUSE.
0:21:06 > 0:21:08So, I completely agree that I feel very underinformed
0:21:08 > 0:21:11about the situation.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14I don't know how easy it is for Trump just to slap
0:21:14 > 0:21:15these percentages on.
0:21:15 > 0:21:19Don't think that trade protectionism works.
0:21:19 > 0:21:22I think what the UK actually does very well, you know,
0:21:22 > 0:21:25I use a little steel in my job, is that we have high-quality
0:21:25 > 0:21:27scientists, we have the best engineering the world.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30What we should be doing is differentiating our product
0:21:30 > 0:21:33by using innovation, by using technology.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35Make it the greenest steel, the strongest steel, the best steel,
0:21:35 > 0:21:38so that we are differentiating ourselves on that basis.
0:21:38 > 0:21:39APPLAUSE.
0:21:39 > 0:21:42You, sir?
0:21:47 > 0:21:50Just on that point, I actually getting out of the EU obviously
0:21:50 > 0:21:51enhances our opportunity.
0:21:51 > 0:21:53And when we consider and paint Donald Trump as some
0:21:53 > 0:21:56kind of protectionist, we have to consider that the EU
0:21:56 > 0:21:57is a protectionist block.
0:21:57 > 0:22:00It has a common external tariff around it, in which it imposes
0:22:00 > 0:22:02tariff barriers on other nations.
0:22:02 > 0:22:04And so, we have enhanced opportunities outside the EU.
0:22:04 > 0:22:09Really, we shouldn't be too concerned over Donald Trump,
0:22:09 > 0:22:11especially as he has reaffirmed on multiple occasions that he wants
0:22:11 > 0:22:14a special trade deal with us.
0:22:14 > 0:22:17APPLAUSE.
0:22:18 > 0:22:22On that point, it speaks to what Prue said earlier
0:22:22 > 0:22:30about our ability to rally around one leader.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33Currently, again, to another point that Prue raised,
0:22:33 > 0:22:36there was a life before the EU, but right now there is going to be
0:22:36 > 0:22:39a life after the EU, and that is going to
0:22:39 > 0:22:40be very different.
0:22:40 > 0:22:43So, if you look at our standing on the world stage, I think Britain
0:22:43 > 0:22:45needs to have a very honest conversation with itself
0:22:45 > 0:22:48about who our friends are and what authority we will be
0:22:48 > 0:22:51able to in a time when we are literally outside of protectionist
0:22:51 > 0:22:52block that we talked about.
0:22:52 > 0:23:02George, I don't know whether you agree, I think it's also
0:23:02 > 0:23:03about the political motivations behind leaving the EU.
0:23:03 > 0:23:07I am immensely worried about a life beyond the EU under the Tories.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09I understand why people voted to leave the European Union,
0:23:09 > 0:23:10I represent a Leave constituency.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13But you have to understand that the likes of Liam Fox,
0:23:13 > 0:23:15Boris Johnson, Jacob Rees-Mogg, they are hard right conservatives
0:23:15 > 0:23:18who do like the idea that the free market rules,
0:23:18 > 0:23:20and actually that workers' rights will be decimated
0:23:20 > 0:23:23if they get their way.
0:23:23 > 0:23:26That's why there's a whole set of pre-negotiations that has to go
0:23:26 > 0:23:28on before David Davis can go off and negotiate with
0:23:28 > 0:23:30the European Union.
0:23:30 > 0:23:32It's free market ideology and actually, I think there needs
0:23:32 > 0:23:35to be a robust protection of workers' rights outside
0:23:35 > 0:23:36of the European Union, or everybody's living standards
0:23:36 > 0:23:39would be hurt.
0:23:39 > 0:23:40Nobody has suggested anything else.
0:23:40 > 0:23:42This is nonsense.
0:23:42 > 0:23:43APPLAUSE.
0:23:43 > 0:23:44Sorry...
0:23:44 > 0:23:47No, let him speak, let him answer.
0:23:47 > 0:23:50First of all, free trade globally is the way that we have taken,
0:23:50 > 0:23:53in 25 years, 1 billion people out of abject poverty around the world.
0:23:53 > 0:23:55Allowing them to get access to our markets.
0:23:55 > 0:23:59The idea that we, one of the world's most developed countries,
0:23:59 > 0:24:01having had all those benefits, would pull up the drawbridge
0:24:01 > 0:24:04behind us and operate some protectionist policy...
0:24:04 > 0:24:06You're telling half the story.
0:24:06 > 0:24:07You're telling half the story.
0:24:08 > 0:24:10Free trade goes both ways.
0:24:10 > 0:24:12So it's not only...
0:24:12 > 0:24:17APPLAUSE.
0:24:17 > 0:24:22It's not only the case that poorer countries are able to involve
0:24:22 > 0:24:24themselves in our market and have access to our technology, there's
0:24:24 > 0:24:30also the question of IP rights, which blocks a lot of what countries
0:24:30 > 0:24:34are able to do, and also our involvement, the involvement
0:24:34 > 0:24:36of richer nations in poorer countries that is able
0:24:36 > 0:24:38to siphon off the best of their resources and talents.
0:24:38 > 0:24:40So what you're saying is half the story.
0:24:40 > 0:24:46APPLAUSE.
0:24:46 > 0:24:48Hold on, Liam Fox, you have always been...
0:24:48 > 0:24:51Are you still as optimistic as you were when you said it should
0:24:51 > 0:24:54be the simplest deal in history of mankind, and there would be deals
0:24:54 > 0:24:56ready, March next year?
0:24:56 > 0:25:00Well, if you look at the EU negotiation, most negotiations
0:25:00 > 0:25:03in the world come from different positions, where you are
0:25:03 > 0:25:04trying to make it closer.
0:25:04 > 0:25:06The EU comes from an identical position.
0:25:06 > 0:25:09And what we should be able to do is come to an agreement
0:25:09 > 0:25:12that is mutually beneficial, to have a zero tariff, open,
0:25:12 > 0:25:13liberal relationship with the European Union.
0:25:13 > 0:25:17Just a second.
0:25:17 > 0:25:19Some of the things that Laura said are just plain wrong.
0:25:19 > 0:25:22The idea that you can be in a customs union still have
0:25:22 > 0:25:24free trade agreements.
0:25:24 > 0:25:26If you're in a customs union, you are restricted
0:25:26 > 0:25:33as to what you can offer a potential trading partner.
0:25:33 > 0:25:35What is even worse, coming from the left,
0:25:35 > 0:25:38this idea that they hate TTIP, but they want to be
0:25:38 > 0:25:39in a customs union.
0:25:39 > 0:25:42If you are in a customs union with the EU, and then they agree
0:25:42 > 0:25:44TTIP, you have it imposed on you.
0:25:44 > 0:25:45Whether you want it or not.
0:25:45 > 0:25:46It is a complete nonsense.
0:25:46 > 0:25:47APPLAUSE.
0:25:47 > 0:25:49Let me respond.
0:25:49 > 0:25:53This is coming from a man who said it was too difficult to sack people,
0:25:53 > 0:25:55who said that employment rights were a hindrance to the economy.
0:25:55 > 0:26:00My deepest fear, post the European Union, is a hard-right
0:26:00 > 0:26:03Conservative government that will be presiding over worker rights.
0:26:03 > 0:26:05Theresa May, hard right Conservative government?
0:26:05 > 0:26:09Really?
0:26:09 > 0:26:10Get over the propaganda.
0:26:10 > 0:26:13She's not running the Tory party at the moment, is she?
0:26:13 > 0:26:14Is she?
0:26:14 > 0:26:15APPLAUSE.
0:26:15 > 0:26:17The woman up on the gangway, there.
0:26:17 > 0:26:20I have a question for Laura.
0:26:20 > 0:26:23That is what exactly do you think, which employment rights do think
0:26:23 > 0:26:26are going to be decimated, and what evidence do you have?
0:26:26 > 0:26:30I just said there, in the past, Liam Fox has talked about implement
0:26:30 > 0:26:32rights being a hindrance to the economy, that actually
0:26:32 > 0:26:35it is too difficult, there is a lot of bureaucracy
0:26:35 > 0:26:43to sack people.
0:26:44 > 0:26:46My experience of being a worker, not that long ago, having many
0:26:46 > 0:26:49friends who are workers, is that it is actually the opposite.
0:26:49 > 0:26:51Trade union rights have been decimated under this government.
0:26:51 > 0:26:54The Trade Union Act was a pernicious piece of legislation that prevents
0:26:54 > 0:26:56people from having control in their workplace to organise
0:26:56 > 0:26:57and have their own say.
0:26:57 > 0:27:00If we're talking about sovereignty and we're talking about protections
0:27:00 > 0:27:02in the workplace, the greatest protection you can have
0:27:02 > 0:27:03is to be a trade union.
0:27:03 > 0:27:06And the Trade Union Act is a piece of legislation...
0:27:06 > 0:27:07Sorry, you're now going back into the past?
0:27:07 > 0:27:10You were talking about what will happen when we leave the EU?
0:27:10 > 0:27:12You think that is going to continue?
0:27:12 > 0:27:13Yes.
0:27:13 > 0:27:15For you, it is a kind of...
0:27:15 > 0:27:16Yes, it is a continuation.
0:27:16 > 0:27:18We have to understand that on Leave and Remain,
0:27:18 > 0:27:21hold on a minute, hold on a minute, there are different
0:27:21 > 0:27:22political motivations.
0:27:22 > 0:27:25All I am saying is the hard right of the Conservatives want us to be
0:27:25 > 0:27:28out of the European Union to have a free market
0:27:28 > 0:27:30and decimate workers' rights.
0:27:30 > 0:27:32We have just been taking through Parliament
0:27:32 > 0:27:35the European Union Withdrawal Bill.
0:27:35 > 0:27:37Which, actually, would right into British law all the rights that
0:27:37 > 0:27:39workers currently have under the European Union.
0:27:39 > 0:27:41The Labour Party voted against it.
0:27:41 > 0:27:45You voted against it.
0:27:45 > 0:27:48And that is historical revisionism if I've ever heard it.
0:27:48 > 0:27:50Putting powers into the hands of ministers, not the people.
0:27:50 > 0:27:53The woman there, on the left?
0:27:53 > 0:27:57I think what concerns me more than anything else is the fact that
0:27:57 > 0:28:05both of you have been voted in to represent us as a country, and
0:28:05 > 0:28:07you are both arguing with each other.
0:28:07 > 0:28:08Brexit is not a party ideal.
0:28:08 > 0:28:10People who voted for Brexit are not necessarily conservative,
0:28:10 > 0:28:13people who voted for Brexit are not necessarily Labour supporters.
0:28:13 > 0:28:16We are part of a country, and it amazes me that Labour
0:28:16 > 0:28:18and Conservatives cannot come together and actually agree
0:28:18 > 0:28:22what the best solution is for us as a party and move forward.
0:28:22 > 0:28:25Because at the end of the day, it's our children who are going
0:28:25 > 0:28:26to have to deal with this.
0:28:26 > 0:28:28You over there?
0:28:28 > 0:28:31Question for Liam, I agree with Prue, I am confident
0:28:31 > 0:28:34in our ability to negotiate these fantastic free trade agreements.
0:28:34 > 0:28:36But at what cost?
0:28:36 > 0:28:39For example, when Theresa May visited India they said
0:28:39 > 0:28:42they absolutely want to do business with you, that concession
0:28:42 > 0:28:44was that they wanted free movement of their workers.
0:28:44 > 0:28:50Obviously how far would you go, would that be a red line?
0:28:50 > 0:28:53OK, and the person here, in the third row, yes?
0:28:53 > 0:28:55I don't believe we can trust the Tories.
0:28:55 > 0:29:00I think there should be a general election before a trade deal.
0:29:00 > 0:29:02OK.
0:29:02 > 0:29:05And in the second row there, you?
0:29:05 > 0:29:08I personally am most concerned of all about the people in abject
0:29:08 > 0:29:10poverty that Liam Fox mentioned.
0:29:10 > 0:29:13There are people on this planet who are born into conditions that
0:29:13 > 0:29:15none of us will ever have to experience, far worse
0:29:15 > 0:29:18than we can imagine, and they have no way of getting
0:29:18 > 0:29:20themselves out of poverty themselves, unless our government
0:29:20 > 0:29:22and other governments, obviously, think about those people
0:29:22 > 0:29:24in the process of trade deals and try to fight
0:29:24 > 0:29:27against the terrible exploitation of the people who provide our sugar
0:29:27 > 0:29:33and cocoa for making cakes and suchlike.
0:29:33 > 0:29:36I really want our politicians to think about those people
0:29:36 > 0:29:38who don't have a voice and are really suffering because of
0:29:38 > 0:29:39centuries of unfair trade.
0:29:39 > 0:29:44APPLAUSE.
0:29:44 > 0:29:47Do you think that is better achieved inside the EU or outside?
0:29:49 > 0:29:52I personally really don't know, which is why I didn't
0:29:52 > 0:29:55vote in the referendum.
0:29:55 > 0:29:57I want to trust that politicians care about human beings,
0:29:57 > 0:30:00not only British votes.
0:30:05 > 0:30:08I'd just like to pick up what the lady at the back said
0:30:08 > 0:30:10about coming together as a country.
0:30:10 > 0:30:12I too am completely fed up of just watching politicians.
0:30:12 > 0:30:13We hear hard Brexit, soft Brexit.
0:30:13 > 0:30:15We will have sunny-side-up Brexit next.
0:30:15 > 0:30:20I don't know we're going to hear.
0:30:20 > 0:30:23What I really want to see is a vision from both of the big
0:30:23 > 0:30:25parties in our country, telling me why my life
0:30:25 > 0:30:27is going to be better outside the European Union.
0:30:27 > 0:30:30And I am absolutely not convinced at this point in time.
0:30:30 > 0:30:32APPLAUSE.
0:30:32 > 0:30:32Groskop
0:30:32 > 0:30:35And you, sir.
0:30:35 > 0:30:38We need to do what's right for our industries.
0:30:38 > 0:30:40We have a fantastic agriculture industry, a fantastic
0:30:40 > 0:30:41automotive industry.
0:30:41 > 0:30:44And I think some of the things we're talking about aren't necessarily
0:30:44 > 0:30:46going to secure jobs, drive the economy in those areas.
0:30:46 > 0:30:51All countries always trade most closely with their neighbours,
0:30:51 > 0:30:54and I think we need to think about what will do that.
0:30:54 > 0:30:56The customs union absolutely guarantees we safeguard those jobs
0:30:56 > 0:31:00in those industries that are closest to us.
0:31:00 > 0:31:03We are halfway through our time so I think we'll move
0:31:03 > 0:31:05on to another question.
0:31:05 > 0:31:08Diane Pace, your question, please.
0:31:08 > 0:31:11Should the government learn from our European partners and take
0:31:11 > 0:31:15back control of the rented sector in housing?
0:31:15 > 0:31:17Should the government learn from our European partners
0:31:17 > 0:31:21and take back control, take control of the rented sector?
0:31:21 > 0:31:23Of course, housing has been on the agenda this week.
0:31:23 > 0:31:29George, what's your view about that?
0:31:29 > 0:31:32Well, the renting sector is an interesting question.
0:31:32 > 0:31:37There is the view that the youth quake in the last election
0:31:37 > 0:31:42is actually attributable to the issue of rent.
0:31:42 > 0:31:48And that raises an interesting quandary in that the number
0:31:48 > 0:31:53of people that are really hard done by by this current housing market
0:31:53 > 0:31:56is now at a critical mass, where it makes a difference
0:31:57 > 0:31:59to an election.
0:31:59 > 0:32:03But at the same time, is it big enough for the Tories to care,
0:32:03 > 0:32:08like, all the time, and not just before an election?
0:32:08 > 0:32:09I don't think it is.
0:32:09 > 0:32:14I do think the housing market, especially where we are here
0:32:14 > 0:32:16in London, is out of control, the private rental market.
0:32:16 > 0:32:23And it would be good to see some intervention.
0:32:23 > 0:32:26What did you make of what the Prime Minister said this week,
0:32:26 > 0:32:28that young people were right to be angry about housing?
0:32:28 > 0:32:32Yeah, it's another one of her beautiful truisms.
0:32:32 > 0:32:35Of course young people are right to be angry about it,
0:32:35 > 0:32:38but the question is actually going to be done.
0:32:38 > 0:32:40And promising planning permissions is not tantamount actually taking
0:32:40 > 0:32:44control of the situation.
0:32:44 > 0:32:45Diane Pace, you asked the question...
0:32:45 > 0:32:50APPLAUSE
0:32:50 > 0:32:52What's the drift of your thinking?
0:32:52 > 0:32:54Well, I was thinking particularly about what happens
0:32:54 > 0:32:56in the rest of Europe.
0:32:56 > 0:32:59Even though we may be leaving the EU, other countries in Europe
0:32:59 > 0:33:05don't see housing in the rented sector or even
0:33:05 > 0:33:08owner-occupation as about an asset.
0:33:08 > 0:33:11They see housing as about people's homes, where they can make a life,
0:33:11 > 0:33:18bring up their families, work and enjoy themselves.
0:33:18 > 0:33:20In this country, we see housing as an asset,
0:33:20 > 0:33:24which means that everybody is scrabbling to get
0:33:24 > 0:33:26on a housing ladder, which is only about ownership.
0:33:26 > 0:33:30Whereas the private rented sector, or what I would support much
0:33:30 > 0:33:34more is a mass council house building programme.
0:33:34 > 0:33:36But it is not really about tenure.
0:33:36 > 0:33:42It's about providing a housing supply which is fair and regulated.
0:33:42 > 0:33:44Having a home, in other words.
0:33:44 > 0:33:48Having a home.
0:33:48 > 0:33:50And in the rest of Europe, that isn't contentious.
0:33:50 > 0:33:53In the Netherlands, which I know something about,
0:33:53 > 0:33:57it's the government that sets how high rent can be, or how much rent
0:33:57 > 0:34:00can be raised each year.
0:34:00 > 0:34:03And I don't think anyone in the Netherlands, or France,
0:34:03 > 0:34:06Germany, they are not rabid communists or socialists even.
0:34:06 > 0:34:11They believe that their housing sector needs regulation,
0:34:11 > 0:34:15and landlords make money and people live in decent homes.
0:34:15 > 0:34:23APPLAUSE
0:34:24 > 0:34:29I think that you have made a really interesting and good point,
0:34:29 > 0:34:32because I do think that we've come to the point when we have
0:34:32 > 0:34:34to consider doing something that makes the rental market work better
0:34:34 > 0:34:38than it does.
0:34:38 > 0:34:42And until now, in fact, it's worked very well especially
0:34:42 > 0:34:45for the middle classes, because owning your own house
0:34:45 > 0:34:49was a little nest egg and you stayed in it as long as you needed
0:34:49 > 0:34:52to and then when you retired you had the value of your house
0:34:52 > 0:34:55and your children could inherit and all the rest of it.
0:34:55 > 0:34:57We are now living so long that our children won't inherit
0:34:57 > 0:35:01until we've spent all the money on health care or whatever.
0:35:01 > 0:35:02That's your plan, is it?
0:35:02 > 0:35:04My plan.
0:35:04 > 0:35:10And so the nest egg thing, we've always been told,
0:35:10 > 0:35:12governments have told us, particularly the Tories have told
0:35:12 > 0:35:15us, that owning our own house
0:35:15 > 0:35:18is the secret to everything, it makes you feel secure
0:35:18 > 0:35:21and an Englishman's home is his castle and all that stuff.
0:35:21 > 0:35:24But I don't think it will work any more because prices
0:35:24 > 0:35:28are so out of control.
0:35:28 > 0:35:31The only problem with the European thing is that there is a real habit
0:35:31 > 0:35:33of saving in Europe.
0:35:33 > 0:35:36Everybody saves for their old age.
0:35:36 > 0:35:38The pensions are very good, and the National Insurance,
0:35:38 > 0:35:40the equivalent of National Insurance, is very good.
0:35:40 > 0:35:44We don't have any of those supports in this country,
0:35:44 > 0:35:48so we don't have a culture of saving, except in the nest egg
0:35:48 > 0:35:49bit, which was your house.
0:35:49 > 0:35:52You put your money into your house.
0:35:52 > 0:35:55So you have to change a whole culture if you want to do that.
0:35:55 > 0:35:58And I think you might in the end have to regulate
0:35:58 > 0:36:01the housing, the rental market.
0:36:01 > 0:36:04Let's hear from one or two members of the audience.
0:36:04 > 0:36:06In the middle.
0:36:06 > 0:36:08I'm a film-maker from Hackney, and literally I've done
0:36:08 > 0:36:11a documentary about gentrification.
0:36:11 > 0:36:14And I've seen my area completely change.
0:36:14 > 0:36:15It's not fair.
0:36:15 > 0:36:18Communities have been broken up.
0:36:18 > 0:36:21And in terms of rental, it has become the wild wild West.
0:36:21 > 0:36:25It's unfair to see how you have to be affluent to live
0:36:25 > 0:36:27in a particular area.
0:36:27 > 0:36:29And it has priced people out.
0:36:29 > 0:36:32So I really do think it's unfair and I think there needs to be
0:36:32 > 0:36:34something done about it because we are breaking up
0:36:34 > 0:36:37communities and people are moving out, and it's not fair.
0:36:37 > 0:36:43APPLAUSE
0:36:43 > 0:36:45I think that the fundamental underlying problem under all of this
0:36:45 > 0:36:50is that we are not building enough housing in this country.
0:36:50 > 0:36:52So what we need to do...
0:36:52 > 0:36:54I work in the sector.
0:36:54 > 0:36:57We need to get private developers working with housing associations
0:36:57 > 0:37:00that provide affordable housing.
0:37:00 > 0:37:02We need to get local and national government tied up.
0:37:02 > 0:37:05We need to pull it out of this five-year election cycle.
0:37:05 > 0:37:09We need to be thinking about homes in ten, 15 and 30 years' time,
0:37:09 > 0:37:11which will cause disruption with construction in the short-term,
0:37:11 > 0:37:14but we have to build enough housing.
0:37:14 > 0:37:19So until we don't get that joined up leadership, we need to...
0:37:19 > 0:37:23Also, just to add, with the housing has to come education,
0:37:23 > 0:37:26infrastructure, transport, health care, arts and culture.
0:37:26 > 0:37:30And so to do that, we have to come together.
0:37:30 > 0:37:33And I think the Olympic Park is one example where, you know,
0:37:33 > 0:37:35it worked well for some people.
0:37:35 > 0:37:38It might not be absolutely perfect but it is an area where we did
0:37:38 > 0:37:40remediate wasteland.
0:37:40 > 0:37:43We brought housing there.
0:37:43 > 0:37:46We brought arts, culture, education, and it could be something we use
0:37:46 > 0:37:48as a model to try and move forward.
0:37:48 > 0:37:51What do you make of the fundamental point that the questioner,
0:37:51 > 0:37:55Diane Pace, made, that we should move away, and that Prue Leith made,
0:37:55 > 0:37:59that we should move away from the idea of owning a house?
0:37:59 > 0:38:03The idea that houses are provided and you rent them?
0:38:03 > 0:38:05I think it is quite a cultural thing in the UK.
0:38:05 > 0:38:09I've lived most of my life here, but not all of it, and it's
0:38:09 > 0:38:11definitely something that I'd seen as quite a UK cultural thing.
0:38:11 > 0:38:14I think if we do provide enough housing and people feel secure
0:38:14 > 0:38:17in rent so that they are not going to be kicked out
0:38:17 > 0:38:20in a few months' time, they feel they could live
0:38:20 > 0:38:22there long-term and they have that security, then slowly perhaps that
0:38:22 > 0:38:24culture will change.
0:38:24 > 0:38:25You're not looking convinced.
0:38:25 > 0:38:28We have new developments that have come in Hackney.
0:38:28 > 0:38:31The fact that as a developer you are meant to have a certain
0:38:31 > 0:38:34percentage for social housing, that is getting less
0:38:34 > 0:38:37and less and less.
0:38:37 > 0:38:40When you look at those houses, it's meant to be 20%.
0:38:40 > 0:38:41It's less and less and less.
0:38:41 > 0:38:44In fact, the gentleman right next to me is telling me that there
0:38:44 > 0:38:46are two different entrances.
0:38:46 > 0:38:48There's entrances for social housing and there's entrances
0:38:48 > 0:38:50for people who own private.
0:38:50 > 0:38:51I disagree with that.
0:38:51 > 0:38:54That shouldn't happen and we need to make sure that our councils
0:38:54 > 0:38:57are providing the mandated amount of housing.
0:38:57 > 0:39:00The problem is at the moment that the councils, the government
0:39:00 > 0:39:02have different ideas.
0:39:02 > 0:39:04Any council can make a decision of what they want.
0:39:04 > 0:39:06And then it depends on them.
0:39:06 > 0:39:08We have to make sure that that regulation is robust.
0:39:08 > 0:39:09Needs to be regulated.
0:39:09 > 0:39:10It's unfair.
0:39:10 > 0:39:11Liam Fox.
0:39:11 > 0:39:15Roma is exactly right.
0:39:15 > 0:39:19It should be up to people themselves to decide whether they rent or buy.
0:39:19 > 0:39:23But that is dependent upon prices being accessible to far more people.
0:39:23 > 0:39:27And the problem is, if you don't build enough homes
0:39:27 > 0:39:29but the demand is still there, the price will rise.
0:39:29 > 0:39:32We've got to build lots more homes to ensure
0:39:32 > 0:39:36that the prices are reasonable.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39And the good news is that last year, 2017, we built more homes,
0:39:39 > 0:39:421.1 million, than in all but one of the last 30 years.
0:39:42 > 0:39:44But we are a long way behind the curve.
0:39:44 > 0:39:46We have to build lots more.
0:39:46 > 0:39:50Do you believe, as Sajid Javid said, that 50 billion should be spent
0:39:50 > 0:39:53by government and councils should be free to spend?
0:39:53 > 0:39:56Because at the moment, councils, we are told one
0:39:56 > 0:39:58in ten is going broke, or more, because they
0:39:58 > 0:39:59can't raise the money.
0:39:59 > 0:40:01Why aren't they free to do it?
0:40:01 > 0:40:04Well, we've got one of the big problems that we face is that
0:40:04 > 0:40:07at the moment if you're a house builder, you can apply
0:40:07 > 0:40:10for planning permission and before you build the houses that
0:40:10 > 0:40:14you are contracted to do, you can get more planning permission.
0:40:14 > 0:40:16What we need to have is something called build-out,
0:40:16 > 0:40:19in other words until house-builders have actually got the houses
0:40:19 > 0:40:23they are contracted to build, they shouldn't be allowed to get
0:40:23 > 0:40:25further planning permissions.
0:40:25 > 0:40:27That would ensure that when planning permission is given
0:40:27 > 0:40:30by a local authority, the houses actually get built,
0:40:30 > 0:40:33rather than land banks being built up, or waiting
0:40:33 > 0:40:35until house prices rise.
0:40:35 > 0:40:38Sorry to labour the point, but why can't councils be freed
0:40:38 > 0:40:43to borrow money at low interest rates and build council houses?
0:40:43 > 0:40:48APPLAUSE
0:40:48 > 0:40:51What's the answer?
0:40:51 > 0:40:52We've actually seen more council houses built
0:40:52 > 0:40:53in the last seven years...
0:40:53 > 0:40:55That's not an answer to the question.
0:40:55 > 0:40:59The question is, yes, it's all very well local authorities
0:40:59 > 0:41:02being able to borrow but they have to pay the money back,
0:41:02 > 0:41:07and that has to ultimately be guaranteed by central government.
0:41:07 > 0:41:09So, yes, let's have more freedom but let's have it responsibly
0:41:09 > 0:41:15so that the taxpayer is not landed with the more debt.
0:41:15 > 0:41:19The man over there in spectacles.
0:41:19 > 0:41:23I think it's important to note that we've stripped away over the past 30
0:41:23 > 0:41:27years so much social housing, which has now been placed
0:41:27 > 0:41:28into the private rental market.
0:41:28 > 0:41:32It wouldn't be unusual in London to find, and probably most big
0:41:32 > 0:41:35cities across the UK, to find that people are living
0:41:35 > 0:41:39in what used to be socially rented properties that were bought
0:41:39 > 0:41:41by Right to Buy.
0:41:41 > 0:41:45They are put onto the private rental market and you will be paying double
0:41:45 > 0:41:49on the private market for the same property that your neighbour
0:41:49 > 0:41:52would be renting from the council.
0:41:52 > 0:41:55So we need to stop assuming that private developers can provide
0:41:55 > 0:41:59the housing we need.
0:41:59 > 0:42:03It needs to be done on a major scale, and the model of social
0:42:03 > 0:42:06housing has to come back.
0:42:06 > 0:42:08Laura, I will come to you in a moment.
0:42:08 > 0:42:12The man there with spectacles on.
0:42:12 > 0:42:15Isn't part of the problem here in London that there are thousands
0:42:15 > 0:42:19and thousands of flats lying vacant which are owned by non-UK investors?
0:42:19 > 0:42:22APPLAUSE
0:42:22 > 0:42:26Laura.
0:42:26 > 0:42:29There were people this winter, only a few weeks ago,
0:42:29 > 0:42:32that died on the streets because they did not
0:42:32 > 0:42:35have a home to call their own, and I think that is an absolute
0:42:35 > 0:42:41condemnation of this nation.
0:42:41 > 0:42:44I heard this homeless man saying, "I just hope I wake up".
0:42:44 > 0:42:47That is an absolute shame.
0:42:47 > 0:42:49And it's systemic, so in the private rented sector, rents are too high,
0:42:49 > 0:42:52people are getting in debt because their rent is extortionate,
0:42:52 > 0:42:54they don't have security of tenure.
0:42:54 > 0:42:56We desperately need council housing.
0:42:56 > 0:42:58I just want to make this point, David, right.
0:42:58 > 0:43:00There's a reluctance to talk about council housing,
0:43:00 > 0:43:04to allow councils the freedom to build council houses.
0:43:04 > 0:43:06And there are ideological motives behind it.
0:43:06 > 0:43:08Everything has a political motivation behind it.
0:43:08 > 0:43:10That's what politics is about.
0:43:10 > 0:43:13If you are really secure in your home, if you have really low rent,
0:43:13 > 0:43:15if you have security of tenure, you're much less likely
0:43:15 > 0:43:17to take industrial action.
0:43:17 > 0:43:20Sorry, you're much more likely to take industrial
0:43:20 > 0:43:24action than if you have, say, got a mortgage and you are really,
0:43:24 > 0:43:26really worried about the security of your home.
0:43:26 > 0:43:29And I think that actually being secure in a house is a human
0:43:29 > 0:43:32right and we have to start looking at it through a human rights
0:43:32 > 0:43:34perspective, rather than just seeing it as a commodity,
0:43:34 > 0:43:37or an asset, or something that we can float on the stock
0:43:37 > 0:43:42market or whatever it is and bank lots of houses in London.
0:43:42 > 0:43:46People deserve homes as a human right, and you have to start talking
0:43:46 > 0:43:49about mass programmes of council house building.
0:43:49 > 0:43:52APPLAUSE
0:43:52 > 0:43:55And just to pick you up on one thing you said.
0:43:55 > 0:43:58"Every political decision has a political motive",
0:43:58 > 0:44:01implying there was an ulterior motive or a different motive.
0:44:01 > 0:44:05What is Labour's different motive when it talks the way you just did?
0:44:05 > 0:44:07That housing is a human right, not like a commodity.
0:44:07 > 0:44:09So you don't have a political motive?
0:44:09 > 0:44:10Of course.
0:44:10 > 0:44:14Not in the crude, callous sense, because actually,
0:44:14 > 0:44:18contrary to popular belief, I genuinely do want people
0:44:18 > 0:44:22in my constituency not to have to come to me because they have got
0:44:22 > 0:44:24mould in their house, because they can't get to sleep
0:44:24 > 0:44:26and their children's health is exacerbated by poor
0:44:26 > 0:44:28living standards.
0:44:28 > 0:44:31I genuinely want people to be taken off the housing list and I want
0:44:31 > 0:44:34council houses to be built, and I want them to be desirable
0:44:34 > 0:44:37and not bargain basement properties because housing revenue accounts
0:44:37 > 0:44:39have been slashed so much under this government.
0:44:39 > 0:44:41APPLAUSE
0:44:41 > 0:44:43We all agree with you.
0:44:43 > 0:44:45You can stop.
0:44:45 > 0:44:48I'm not going to stop while there's people dying on the streets.
0:44:48 > 0:44:49For heaven's sake, Laura.
0:44:49 > 0:44:51Stop it.
0:44:51 > 0:44:52We saw what deregulation did.
0:44:52 > 0:44:54Let me say this as a final point.
0:44:54 > 0:44:57No, you have said your final bit for the moment.
0:44:57 > 0:44:58What deregulation did at Grenfell, though, David.
0:44:58 > 0:44:59Look what deregulation did there.
0:44:59 > 0:45:00Let Prue Leith speak.
0:45:00 > 0:45:02She was just taking you to task.
0:45:02 > 0:45:05No, I was just saying, we've got it and we agree
0:45:05 > 0:45:06with you pretty well.
0:45:06 > 0:45:11So let's let a few other people speak.
0:45:11 > 0:45:16But all I wanted to say was that I don't think this is a question
0:45:16 > 0:45:17of the rented market against the private
0:45:17 > 0:45:21market, or anything else.
0:45:21 > 0:45:23I think it's got to be a mixed solution.
0:45:23 > 0:45:26And everybody has to do their bit.
0:45:26 > 0:45:30The only thing I would like to say, which is a rather obvious thing,
0:45:30 > 0:45:37you know, we think that the housing problem is all because politicians
0:45:37 > 0:45:38won't built houses.
0:45:38 > 0:45:39We could do three things about that.
0:45:39 > 0:45:42I mean, things that stop the houses being built
0:45:42 > 0:45:43is not the lack of money.
0:45:43 > 0:45:49It's that the planning procedure is very slow, and difficult.
0:45:49 > 0:45:54And it's basically protectionist.
0:45:54 > 0:45:56Most planners don't want to build houses, they want to stop
0:45:56 > 0:45:59houses being built.
0:45:59 > 0:46:01So that's one thing.
0:46:01 > 0:46:04The planning, I really think planning, the helpline thing needs
0:46:14 > 0:46:16-- The planning, I really think planning, the whole planning thing
0:46:16 > 0:46:19needs to be looked at very carefully and made much more cooperative
0:46:19 > 0:46:20and useful to builders.
0:46:20 > 0:46:23I also think that we should understand that, actually,
0:46:23 > 0:46:25even if we could build the houses that your government have said
0:46:25 > 0:46:28we should be building this year, we'll never build them
0:46:28 > 0:46:30because there are not enough building materials to be
0:46:30 > 0:46:31had in this country.
0:46:31 > 0:46:33It's too expensive to import it all.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35And there isn't enough labour, so there's not enough
0:46:35 > 0:46:37labour to build them, there's not enough materials
0:46:37 > 0:46:38to build them and the planning...
0:46:38 > 0:46:40OK, the woman in the front, here.
0:46:40 > 0:46:41Let's hear from you.
0:46:41 > 0:46:43First of all, Prue, I'm a planner and I really
0:46:43 > 0:46:46want to see houses built, because I'm also a young person.
0:46:46 > 0:46:47Good for you!
0:46:47 > 0:46:51Who doesn't benefit from the Bank of Mum and Dad, so at the moment
0:46:51 > 0:46:53I have no chance of buying a house before I'm about 40.
0:46:53 > 0:46:56Secondly, as I say, I'm a planner and a property developer,
0:46:56 > 0:47:00so I know quite a bit about the planning process.
0:47:00 > 0:47:04And my view is that the bureaucracy of the process is so complicated
0:47:04 > 0:47:06now that it takes years to put through a simple
0:47:06 > 0:47:08development of ten houses.
0:47:08 > 0:47:12Can we not just simplify the whole thing and get it so houses
0:47:12 > 0:47:15are being built in areas that we want them to be built?
0:47:15 > 0:47:16OK.
0:47:16 > 0:47:18The man up there on the gangway, there?
0:47:18 > 0:47:21And then I'll come to you.
0:47:21 > 0:47:24Yeah, I'd just like to say I have a bit of experience in this
0:47:24 > 0:47:27because I live in London, I come from Yorkshire.
0:47:27 > 0:47:29I was able, fortunately, to buy a house with
0:47:29 > 0:47:31the support of my family.
0:47:31 > 0:47:34When I moved here, we worked with local projects to be able
0:47:34 > 0:47:37to rent the house out to people, who otherwise wouldn't be able
0:47:37 > 0:47:40to get into their own property, wouldn't be able to afford it.
0:47:40 > 0:47:41But, unfortunately, funding for those kind
0:47:41 > 0:47:42of schemes has been cut.
0:47:42 > 0:47:45So we're not able to do that any more.
0:47:45 > 0:47:48But I think Laura's point of give everybody who is homeless a free
0:47:48 > 0:47:50house doesn't really work.
0:47:50 > 0:47:51I didn't say that.
0:47:51 > 0:47:53What happens to everyone else who has to earn
0:47:53 > 0:47:55their way into a house?
0:47:55 > 0:47:58What we need to do is take people on the streets,
0:47:58 > 0:48:01to give them a route to being able to afford their own house,
0:48:01 > 0:48:02not give them a freebie.
0:48:02 > 0:48:04Yeah, but they are interconnected, aren't they?
0:48:04 > 0:48:06They are interconnected.
0:48:06 > 0:48:08The person in the back, row there.
0:48:08 > 0:48:09The woman.
0:48:09 > 0:48:10Oh, second from the back.
0:48:10 > 0:48:11Yes, you.
0:48:11 > 0:48:14Yeah, I just wanted to go back to what George said
0:48:14 > 0:48:15about the youthquake.
0:48:15 > 0:48:17I really don't think it did enough to influence the election,
0:48:17 > 0:48:19even though I would have liked it to.
0:48:19 > 0:48:22I'm 18 and I have friends who are paying over 315 a week
0:48:22 > 0:48:24in rent to live in London.
0:48:24 > 0:48:27You cannot have a generation of renters.
0:48:27 > 0:48:29It's just financial insecurity for life.
0:48:29 > 0:48:31When are the Conservatives going to take notice
0:48:31 > 0:48:33of an entire future generation who are facing financial insecurity?
0:48:33 > 0:48:34APPLAUSE
0:48:34 > 0:48:38Briefly, Liam.
0:48:38 > 0:48:40Well, that is the whole point of the Government's housing policy
0:48:40 > 0:48:43now, that we want to build more.
0:48:43 > 0:48:46For years and years, and years, including, it has to be said,
0:48:46 > 0:48:48during the last Labour government, I'm interested why this
0:48:48 > 0:48:53one would be different, we did not build enough homes.
0:48:53 > 0:48:55The population has increased far more than the supply of housing.
0:48:55 > 0:48:58When that happens, you get a supply and demand mismatch and then prices
0:48:58 > 0:49:01will inevitably rise.
0:49:01 > 0:49:03That's what happens when the market is distorted in the way
0:49:03 > 0:49:06that it is at the moment.
0:49:06 > 0:49:10What your government still falls short of doing is compelling
0:49:10 > 0:49:12developers to stick to the social provisions that they are
0:49:12 > 0:49:14nominally committed to.
0:49:14 > 0:49:16APPLAUSE.
0:49:16 > 0:49:19OK, we have under ten minutes left.
0:49:19 > 0:49:23One more question from the woman there.
0:49:23 > 0:49:24Just a brief point.
0:49:24 > 0:49:27Just very briefly, the whole talk about building new houses,
0:49:27 > 0:49:30that's all well and good, but the problem is the people
0:49:30 > 0:49:32who buy bulk houses for investment purposes.
0:49:32 > 0:49:36I'm 40 years old, I pay more in rent for one room in a shared house
0:49:36 > 0:49:39and my brother does for a three bed semidetached in Swindon.
0:49:39 > 0:49:41It's ridiculous.
0:49:41 > 0:49:44People will just buy them and they tell you, well,
0:49:44 > 0:49:47my retirement is sorted because I've got five properties, I rented them
0:49:47 > 0:49:52out, so I'm OK when I grow old.
0:49:52 > 0:49:54So, people, whatever you are building, you've got people
0:49:54 > 0:49:56who are investing and just hoarding all of the properties
0:49:56 > 0:49:59for themselves, and not allowing it, so then that hikes
0:49:59 > 0:50:03the prices even more.
0:50:03 > 0:50:04OK.
0:50:04 > 0:50:06APPLAUSE.
0:50:06 > 0:50:09There are a lot of hands up here about that topic.
0:50:09 > 0:50:12But I want to go on, because we've got another six
0:50:12 > 0:50:13or seven minutes to go.
0:50:13 > 0:50:15This is an appropriate question for today, perhaps.
0:50:15 > 0:50:17Claire Carter, can we have it?
0:50:17 > 0:50:20Do we want women reaching the top by merit or simply
0:50:20 > 0:50:27making up the numbers?
0:50:27 > 0:50:28Positive discrimination or merit?
0:50:28 > 0:50:29Is that your point?
0:50:29 > 0:50:35Making up the numbers?
0:50:35 > 0:50:39We are led to believe that we want more women on boards and directors,
0:50:39 > 0:50:41but surely it has to be on merit?
0:50:41 > 0:50:42Because otherwise you discredit men and women?
0:50:42 > 0:50:45OK, well, Prue Leith has sat on many a board.
0:50:45 > 0:50:48Is it on merit or because you were a woman?
0:50:48 > 0:50:50Well, to be honest, when I first...
0:50:50 > 0:50:53The first public board I ever sat on was the British Railways Board.
0:50:53 > 0:50:56And then I sat on various other ones, like Safeway,
0:50:56 > 0:50:57Whitbread and so on.
0:50:57 > 0:50:59And I have to admit, probably the chairmen who put me
0:50:59 > 0:51:02on those boards did it because they were tired
0:51:02 > 0:51:04of going to AGMs and some woman standing up, shareholder,
0:51:04 > 0:51:09saying, why am I looking at all these grey suits?
0:51:09 > 0:51:11Why aren't there any women on the board?
0:51:11 > 0:51:15So I was there as the token woman.
0:51:15 > 0:51:18My attitude was always I don't care what your motivation is,
0:51:18 > 0:51:25as long as when I get there I'm allowed to do the job.
0:51:25 > 0:51:28So, in a sense, what I'm saying is that I would happily
0:51:28 > 0:51:36back a quota system, as long as it wasn't ridiculous.
0:51:36 > 0:51:40You don't want people who are not qualified for the job, but,
0:51:40 > 0:51:42believe me, there are enough good women, well-educated women in this
0:51:42 > 0:51:47country to do almost any job.
0:51:47 > 0:51:53APPLAUSE
0:51:53 > 0:51:57Basically, I am absolutely behind targets and quotas, anything
0:51:57 > 0:52:01that will get women towards...
0:52:01 > 0:52:04Because very quickly what happens is they start to realise, oh, gosh,
0:52:04 > 0:52:07they are rather good at this job.
0:52:07 > 0:52:09And then the only trouble is they still don't pay
0:52:09 > 0:52:10them as much as men.
0:52:10 > 0:52:12Which is wrong, and illegal.
0:52:12 > 0:52:13But it happens.
0:52:13 > 0:52:16OK. Roma?
0:52:16 > 0:52:21I am one of less than 10% of female engineers in this country.
0:52:21 > 0:52:23And it's very, very necessary that we get more women
0:52:23 > 0:52:24into my profession.
0:52:24 > 0:52:32Because what engineers do is design for society.
0:52:32 > 0:52:35And if we don't represent society, then we're not going
0:52:35 > 0:52:36to do well for society.
0:52:36 > 0:52:39So it's very interesting for me, I think the reason at the moment why
0:52:39 > 0:52:42women are not getting to the top in the numbers and the quantities
0:52:42 > 0:52:45that we should be is because the way we measure achievement is perhaps
0:52:45 > 0:52:46out of date.
0:52:46 > 0:52:49So, we reward behaviour such as working really long
0:52:49 > 0:52:50hours, travelling a lot.
0:52:50 > 0:52:52There may be deals made on golf courses and so on.
0:52:52 > 0:52:55So, what we need to do is find a different system
0:52:55 > 0:52:58by which we measure what success is, what leadership is.
0:52:58 > 0:53:02And as somebody who works part-time, for example, I would love to see
0:53:02 > 0:53:05women that are working part-time still able to get to the top
0:53:05 > 0:53:07without having to pull every hour and miss everything that's
0:53:07 > 0:53:08going on with their families.
0:53:08 > 0:53:10For me, it's about changing that system.
0:53:10 > 0:53:13APPLAUSE.
0:53:13 > 0:53:15Claire, let me just go back to Claire Carter,
0:53:15 > 0:53:18who asked this question.
0:53:18 > 0:53:25When you asked do you want women reaching the top by merit,
0:53:25 > 0:53:27which presumably is the long-term aim, or making up the numbers,
0:53:27 > 0:53:31what is your view?
0:53:31 > 0:53:33Do you think, as Prue said, having women on boards,
0:53:33 > 0:53:36making equal men and women, in itself is a good thing?
0:53:36 > 0:53:37No, I don't.
0:53:37 > 0:53:39I think all of the women, I speak for myself, maybe
0:53:39 > 0:53:42the women on the panel here, have been there by
0:53:42 > 0:53:43achievement and merit.
0:53:43 > 0:53:45You can't say you need five men and five women,
0:53:45 > 0:53:48because you discredit the men and would anybody like a job
0:53:48 > 0:53:50out of just a number?
0:53:50 > 0:53:54Without earning their place?
0:53:54 > 0:53:56We are in danger of mixing it up.
0:53:56 > 0:53:58You think there is a danger of this happening?
0:53:58 > 0:53:59Yes, I do.
0:53:59 > 0:54:01Laura Pidcock?
0:54:01 > 0:54:04I think positive action is an acknowledgement
0:54:04 > 0:54:06of the structural barriers that take place to exclude people
0:54:06 > 0:54:09from systems, be it from politics, the boardroom or whatever.
0:54:09 > 0:54:13APPLAUSE
0:54:13 > 0:54:16And, actually, just a very local thing, the Labour Party has
0:54:16 > 0:54:2145% of MPs are women because they took decisive action.
0:54:21 > 0:54:24I was selected on an all-woman short list, I got there by merit,
0:54:24 > 0:54:25I'm telling you now.
0:54:25 > 0:54:27It wasn't because I was just put up.
0:54:27 > 0:54:31I was put up against a pool of very, very capable women, I have to say.
0:54:31 > 0:54:33I just want to make one last point, David.
0:54:33 > 0:54:36That is that we are obsessed with the top, it seems.
0:54:36 > 0:54:38The biggest barrier in life to any kind of achievement
0:54:38 > 0:54:40is your socioeconomic status.
0:54:40 > 0:54:43So, what class you are and how you achieve is very much
0:54:43 > 0:54:45about what opportunities are afforded to you.
0:54:45 > 0:54:47So I'm less concerned with the boardroom and I'm more
0:54:47 > 0:54:50concerned with how much the lowest paid workers are being
0:54:50 > 0:54:53treated in this country.
0:54:53 > 0:54:56APPLAUSE
0:54:57 > 0:54:59Just to echo much of what Laura said.
0:54:59 > 0:55:05I think the first step is a psychological acknowledgement
0:55:05 > 0:55:10that there is a deficit, or an inherent bias within society.
0:55:10 > 0:55:16I think what things like quotas and positive discrimination schemes
0:55:16 > 0:55:19allow is for a moment to depart from the automatic thinking
0:55:19 > 0:55:20that we might just slip into.
0:55:20 > 0:55:25And I think the benefit of that is that it forces employers,
0:55:25 > 0:55:30or people in positions of leadership, to reassess
0:55:30 > 0:55:34what their biases and their kind of automotive thinking,
0:55:34 > 0:55:38when making these decisions.
0:55:38 > 0:55:40Ultimately, you will see a new appreciation of the merit
0:55:40 > 0:55:43people do bring to the table that is often overlooked
0:55:43 > 0:55:44without the schemes.
0:55:44 > 0:55:45OK.
0:55:45 > 0:55:47The woman in the second row?
0:55:47 > 0:55:51I'll ask you to be brief, because we are almost...
0:55:51 > 0:55:53There is plenty of evidence to say that, actually,
0:55:53 > 0:55:56diverse boards and leadership teams actually produce greater wealth.
0:55:58 > 0:56:02So, in some ways, if I was the CEO of an organisation, if I wanted
0:56:02 > 0:56:05to create more value, I want to have a more diverse team,
0:56:05 > 0:56:08I would like to follow up on both Roma and your's point.
0:56:08 > 0:56:10It is the structure, the mindset, and shifting it.
0:56:10 > 0:56:12And it's not just for women, it's for everyone.
0:56:12 > 0:56:13I am absolutely against quotas.
0:56:13 > 0:56:15I'm very much based on meritocracy.
0:56:15 > 0:56:17However, we women, especially on International Women's Day should
0:56:17 > 0:56:19be helping those from behind us.
0:56:19 > 0:56:22I met this young lady here this evening.
0:56:22 > 0:56:27You know, we had a great chat and everything.
0:56:27 > 0:56:30And people like me who, I am successful in my career
0:56:30 > 0:56:32and everything, should be taking his woman with us and helping
0:56:32 > 0:56:34them, and mentoring.
0:56:34 > 0:56:36Because mentoring is a great way and it also cuts
0:56:36 > 0:56:39across social divides and that, so we break those moulds as well.
0:56:39 > 0:56:40Liam Fox?
0:56:40 > 0:56:41We only have a few moments left.
0:56:41 > 0:56:43To answer the question, having worked for two
0:56:43 > 0:56:46female prime ministers, they would both have hated the idea
0:56:46 > 0:56:48that they were there because they were women,
0:56:48 > 0:56:50rather than because they were the best.
0:56:50 > 0:56:54We do have to accept that we have to ease the path so that women can
0:56:54 > 0:56:56actually take advantage of the talents that we have.
0:56:56 > 0:57:01The lady in the second row asked a very interesting question earlier,
0:57:01 > 0:57:06how can we use trade to help some of those poorest?
0:57:06 > 0:57:08Listen, on International Women's Day we should consider this,
0:57:08 > 0:57:11that one of the best ways that we can is to open up e-commerce
0:57:11 > 0:57:13to people, especially women.
0:57:13 > 0:57:15If you look at firms, those that are purely trading off-line,
0:57:15 > 0:57:18four out of five are either owned or run by men.
0:57:18 > 0:57:26Those that are trading purely online, four out of five are either
0:57:28 > 0:57:29run or owned by women.
0:57:29 > 0:57:32There is a real opportunity to liberate women across the world
0:57:32 > 0:57:33by using e-commerce.
0:57:33 > 0:57:34As long as they are paid fairly!
0:57:34 > 0:57:38And that is one of the things, in answer to your earlier question,
0:57:38 > 0:57:39that the Government is actually championing.
0:57:39 > 0:57:41I'm sorry, there are hands up, like on housing, I'd
0:57:41 > 0:57:44like to come to many more people but our hour is done.
0:57:44 > 0:57:46We only had an hour.
0:57:46 > 0:57:47We should have fewer people on the panel.
0:57:47 > 0:57:50Perhaps he should have the whole audience just by themselves?
0:57:50 > 0:57:52Anyway, the hour is up for Question Time.
0:57:52 > 0:57:55Next Thursday, as I said earlier, we are going to be in Dover.
0:57:55 > 0:57:57We have the Shadow Secretary of State for exiting
0:57:57 > 0:57:58the EU, Keir Starmer.
0:57:58 > 0:58:00We have the Irish MEP Mairead McGuinness, and the actor
0:58:00 > 0:58:07Brian Cox among the five on the panel.
0:58:07 > 0:58:10The week after that we are in Leeds, where our audience is all
0:58:10 > 0:58:11going to be under 30.
0:58:11 > 0:58:14It looks to me as though this audience is mostly under 30.
0:58:14 > 0:58:16Perhaps that is flattering some of you.
0:58:16 > 0:58:20The number to call is 0330 123 99 88 if you would like to be a those two
0:58:20 > 0:58:23places, or on the screen is the website, and follow
0:58:23 > 0:58:24the instructions there.
0:58:24 > 0:58:27If you want to have your say on the topics we've been talking
0:58:27 > 0:58:29about, a reminder you can join Adrian Chiles on Question Time
0:58:29 > 0:58:31Extra Time on 5 Live.
0:58:31 > 0:58:32It's on BBC now.
0:58:32 > 0:58:34If you want to watch it, you can press the red button,
0:58:34 > 0:58:38or you can watch it on iPlayer, if you would rather do that.
0:58:38 > 0:58:41So, my thanks to our panel, and to all of you who came
0:58:41 > 0:58:43to this splendid setting at the Institution Of Civil
0:58:43 > 0:58:44Engineers here in Westminster.
0:58:44 > 0:58:46From Question Time, until next Thursday, good night.
0:58:46 > 0:58:54APPLAUSE.