0:00:04 > 0:00:10Tonight we are at the port of Dover, and welcome to Question Time.
0:00:15 > 0:00:17With me here, the Secretary of State for Transport,
0:00:17 > 0:00:20who argued the case for Brexit, and when that led to the fall
0:00:20 > 0:00:24of Cameron ran Theresa May's campaign for leadership of the Tory
0:00:24 > 0:00:28party, Chris Grayling.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30A lawyer who became Director of Public Prosecutions before
0:00:30 > 0:00:32being elected an MP, the Shadow Secretary
0:00:32 > 0:00:36for Brexit, Keir Starmer.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38The Irish MEP who is now vice President of the European
0:00:38 > 0:00:42Parliament, Mairead McGuinness.
0:00:42 > 0:00:44The broadcaster with the Russian-funded TV channel RT,
0:00:44 > 0:00:48and presenter of a weekly current affairs programme on that
0:00:48 > 0:00:53channel, Afshin Rattansi.
0:00:53 > 0:00:55And the Shakespearean actor and Hollywood star, born in Dundee,
0:00:55 > 0:01:02a staunch supporter of Scottish independence, Brian Cox.
0:01:09 > 0:01:10Thank you.
0:01:10 > 0:01:12Thank you very much.
0:01:12 > 0:01:14Remember at home, of course, if you want to get into these
0:01:14 > 0:01:18arguments, use #BBCQT either on Twitter or on Facebook.
0:01:18 > 0:01:23Let's have our first question from Paul Wilson, please.
0:01:23 > 0:01:25How certain are you that the Salisbury attack
0:01:25 > 0:01:29is beyond doubt the responsibility of the Russian state?
0:01:29 > 0:01:32Keir Starmer.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36Thank you for that question.
0:01:36 > 0:01:40This was an appalling attack, using military grade
0:01:40 > 0:01:41nerve agents in a town, Salisbury.
0:01:41 > 0:01:44It could have been any town.
0:01:44 > 0:01:47It could have been here, and it deserves to be
0:01:47 > 0:01:48condemned by all of us without reservation,
0:01:48 > 0:01:51without reservation.
0:01:51 > 0:01:57Now, the Prime Minister asked serious questions
0:01:57 > 0:01:59of Russia earlier this week, based on the investigation carried
0:01:59 > 0:02:02out by our security and intelligence services who work at Porton Down,
0:02:02 > 0:02:05and no answers have been given.
0:02:05 > 0:02:08No answers have been given.
0:02:08 > 0:02:11And that led her to the conclusion that there is no alternative
0:02:11 > 0:02:15explanation other than that responsibility lies with Russia.
0:02:15 > 0:02:18And as you will have seen, Germany, France and the US have joined
0:02:18 > 0:02:21us in that conclusion.
0:02:21 > 0:02:23And that is the right conclusion.
0:02:23 > 0:02:26And for that reason I think it's very important that we support
0:02:26 > 0:02:30the action that the Prime Minister laid out on Wednesday as a response
0:02:30 > 0:02:34to this unprovoked attack, an attack on our sovereignty,
0:02:34 > 0:02:37on our rule of law, and not for the first time.
0:02:37 > 0:02:41As a lawyer I represented Marina Litvinenko.
0:02:41 > 0:02:44It was my privilege to bring a case on her behalf against Russia
0:02:44 > 0:02:49for that atrocious murder ten, 11 years ago now.
0:02:49 > 0:02:54This is not the first time.
0:02:54 > 0:02:57It needs to be called out, no ifs and no buts, and we need
0:02:57 > 0:03:00strong action as set out by the Prime Minister on Wednesday.
0:03:00 > 0:03:07APPLAUSE
0:03:07 > 0:03:09Well now, you will know there's been some criticism,
0:03:09 > 0:03:12not least from the Labour Party, of Jeremy Corbyn's response
0:03:12 > 0:03:15to this and I want to quote you what he writes in tomorrow's
0:03:15 > 0:03:17Guardian newspaper.
0:03:17 > 0:03:20"Rushing way ahead of the evidence being gathered by the police
0:03:20 > 0:03:23in a fevered parliamentary atmosphere serves neither justice
0:03:23 > 0:03:26nor our national security".
0:03:26 > 0:03:28Do you agree with what he says or disagree?
0:03:28 > 0:03:32I think everything that everybody pretty much has said,
0:03:32 > 0:03:35Jeremy included, is you've got to allow space for the police,
0:03:35 > 0:03:37the security and intelligence services do their job.
0:03:37 > 0:03:38We all recognise that.
0:03:38 > 0:03:41We absolutely recognise that, and Jeremy is right to say let them
0:03:41 > 0:03:45get on with their job.
0:03:45 > 0:03:47I've worked, when I was Director of Public Prosecutions,
0:03:47 > 0:03:49close to the police, close to the security
0:03:49 > 0:03:52and intelligence services, and I know the quality of their work
0:03:52 > 0:03:54and I hold them in the highest regard.
0:03:54 > 0:03:56The accusation is that the government was rushing
0:03:56 > 0:03:57ahead of the evidence.
0:03:57 > 0:03:59Do you think the government has rushed ahead of the evidence?
0:03:59 > 0:04:00No.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03Of course the evidence has to come out and be carefully assessed,
0:04:03 > 0:04:05and we will do that.
0:04:05 > 0:04:06The government will do it.
0:04:06 > 0:04:08Theresa May, I hope, will make further statements
0:04:08 > 0:04:09setting out the evidence.
0:04:09 > 0:04:11What has happened this week is an initial response to this
0:04:11 > 0:04:17attack, and a response based on Russia being asked
0:04:17 > 0:04:19serious questions and not answering those questions.
0:04:19 > 0:04:23This was military-grade material, available only in Russia
0:04:23 > 0:04:26and there were only two options.
0:04:26 > 0:04:29Either it was directly from them or they lost control of it.
0:04:29 > 0:04:31Theresa May put serious questions on the table
0:04:31 > 0:04:34and they were not answered.
0:04:34 > 0:04:36In those circumstances, I really don't think that we should
0:04:36 > 0:04:40be other than very clear about the seriousness of this.
0:04:40 > 0:04:43Was it right to expel the 23 diplomats in your view?
0:04:43 > 0:04:46Absolutely.
0:04:46 > 0:04:47OK, fine.
0:04:47 > 0:04:49We'll come back to you in a moment.
0:04:49 > 0:04:51Afshin Rattansi.
0:04:51 > 0:04:55Obviously everyone condemns this attack.
0:04:55 > 0:04:59I mean, it's terrible for the police officer and these two spies.
0:04:59 > 0:05:03And can I just say, just before that, thank you to the BBC
0:05:03 > 0:05:05and to Mentorn for inviting me because the head of the liaison
0:05:05 > 0:05:07committee in Parliament, Sarah Wollaston MP, the liaison
0:05:07 > 0:05:09committee is the one that quizzes the Prime Minister,
0:05:09 > 0:05:12has told all these people on the panel to walk off
0:05:12 > 0:05:13the minute I sit here.
0:05:13 > 0:05:15That's free speech in this country.
0:05:15 > 0:05:17She's not had any discussions with me whatsoever.
0:05:17 > 0:05:20It's on Twitter.
0:05:20 > 0:05:23I've not had a conversation with her, she has not spoken to me.
0:05:23 > 0:05:25She has tweeted that the entire panel...
0:05:25 > 0:05:27I don't care what she's tweeted.
0:05:27 > 0:05:28I know she's not spoken to me.
0:05:28 > 0:05:30I didn't say she spoke to you.
0:05:30 > 0:05:33APPLAUSE
0:05:33 > 0:05:34Hang on, hang on.
0:05:34 > 0:05:36I never said that she'd spoken to you.
0:05:36 > 0:05:37We're not really dealing with one person's tweets.
0:05:37 > 0:05:39Let's deal with the question here.
0:05:39 > 0:05:41The question is, how certain are you the Salisbury attack
0:05:41 > 0:05:44is beyond doubt the responsibility of the Russian state?
0:05:44 > 0:05:47Well, this person to my right, who has close contacts
0:05:47 > 0:05:51with the intelligence services says only Russia have these chemicals,
0:05:51 > 0:05:54which is quite something given that Britain vetoed in the past few hours
0:05:54 > 0:05:57a UN Security Council resolution asking for an investigation
0:05:57 > 0:06:00into these atrocities in Wiltshire.
0:06:00 > 0:06:02Why did Britain veto that resolution?
0:06:02 > 0:06:04That's interesting, isn't it?
0:06:04 > 0:06:08Why is it that neo-con, neo-liberal Labour Party members
0:06:08 > 0:06:11continue to try and use WMD to push us into war?
0:06:11 > 0:06:15That is an implication, certainly, of what your leader,
0:06:15 > 0:06:18Jeremy Corbyn has been saying.
0:06:18 > 0:06:20I know you didn't support Jeremy Corbyn for the leadership.
0:06:20 > 0:06:23As for your work at the CPS...
0:06:23 > 0:06:28As for your work at the CPS, let it not be in any doubt that
0:06:28 > 0:06:30recent e-mails have shown while you ran that department...
0:06:30 > 0:06:32Sorry, we are getting off the point.
0:06:32 > 0:06:35You were asked a very simple question by Paul Wilson.
0:06:35 > 0:06:37Do him the honour of answering his question
0:06:37 > 0:06:39as a member of the audience.
0:06:39 > 0:06:46APPLAUSE
0:06:46 > 0:06:48How certain are you that the Salisbury attack
0:06:48 > 0:06:51is beyond doubt the responsibility of the Russian state?
0:06:51 > 0:06:53Even the Prime Minister said it was only highly likely,
0:06:53 > 0:06:55so it's certainly not beyond reasonable doubt.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57We must have an urgent investigation.
0:06:57 > 0:06:59She said there was no alternative conclusion, actually,
0:06:59 > 0:07:00which is rather different.
0:07:00 > 0:07:01She then followed that up.
0:07:01 > 0:07:05The White House has now said no "plausible", changing
0:07:05 > 0:07:07what the Prime Minister said.
0:07:07 > 0:07:08And you?
0:07:08 > 0:07:09I really, really don't know.
0:07:09 > 0:07:10I don't have that certainty.
0:07:10 > 0:07:13And in a sense, RT is a channel going underground.
0:07:13 > 0:07:17We try and look at certainty and question more.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20We cannot believe our governments any more the way we used to,
0:07:20 > 0:07:23just because a Prime Minister stands up and says the security services
0:07:23 > 0:07:25have told us something.
0:07:25 > 0:07:28Those days are gone.
0:07:28 > 0:07:30APPLAUSE
0:07:30 > 0:07:31Chris Grayling.
0:07:31 > 0:07:35We wouldn't have taken the steps that we have if we were not
0:07:35 > 0:07:37completely satisfied that the Russian state was either
0:07:37 > 0:07:39behind the appalling attack in Salisbury,
0:07:39 > 0:07:44or refused to give an explanation as to how those nerve gases
0:07:44 > 0:07:48could have left their control.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51We gave them the chance to respond, properly.
0:07:51 > 0:07:52They did not respond.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55Of course, we are dealing with a situation where we have seen
0:07:55 > 0:07:57an attack on somebody who has already been threatened
0:07:57 > 0:08:01by the Russian state, and we've had previous issues.
0:08:01 > 0:08:04We are satisfied that the action we have taken
0:08:04 > 0:08:05is in response to a genuine act.
0:08:05 > 0:08:07It is the right response.
0:08:07 > 0:08:10And I am really pleased and grateful to our allies around the world,
0:08:10 > 0:08:13the United States and France and Germany, for the statement
0:08:13 > 0:08:16they have joined us in today, making it clear that they also
0:08:16 > 0:08:19support the British government and the steps we have taken.
0:08:19 > 0:08:20This is completely, completely, absolutely
0:08:20 > 0:08:23unreservedly unacceptable.
0:08:23 > 0:08:26This is a violent act that has affected members of the public.
0:08:26 > 0:08:29APPLAUSE
0:08:29 > 0:08:30In an English country city.
0:08:30 > 0:08:34It is absolutely unacceptable and we will stand up to this.
0:08:34 > 0:08:37We cannot, as a Western world and as democratic nations,
0:08:37 > 0:08:41possibly countenance accepting such wilfully reckless, hostile
0:08:41 > 0:08:43acts against our nation.
0:08:43 > 0:08:49APPLAUSE
0:08:49 > 0:08:52How did you become so certain, to use the Prime Minister's words
0:08:52 > 0:08:55of yesterday, that there is no alternative conclusion other
0:08:55 > 0:09:01than the Russian state being culpable for attempted murder?
0:09:01 > 0:09:03What happened between Monday when she was more
0:09:03 > 0:09:05cautious, and Wednesday?
0:09:05 > 0:09:08And are you, in your own mind, absolutely certain it was,
0:09:08 > 0:09:10so to speak, President Putin who organised or allowed
0:09:10 > 0:09:14this to happen?
0:09:14 > 0:09:16Is that your view?
0:09:16 > 0:09:20I don't know exactly what the mechanics were at the other end.
0:09:20 > 0:09:23But what I do know is that we have, as Keir rightly says,
0:09:23 > 0:09:26something we are both absolutely agreed on, we have the finest,
0:09:26 > 0:09:28in my view, intelligence services in the world.
0:09:28 > 0:09:32We have experts who've looked into the nature
0:09:32 > 0:09:35of the chemicals used, have reached conclusions,
0:09:35 > 0:09:37have provided information to government and we've acted
0:09:37 > 0:09:38on that information.
0:09:38 > 0:09:40The Prime Minister's satisfied.
0:09:40 > 0:09:41The finest intelligence services in the world,
0:09:41 > 0:09:43they should have protected this man then.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46Oh, don't be so trivial about a really serious incident.
0:09:46 > 0:09:50Mairead McGuinness.
0:09:50 > 0:09:52It's interesting that in the European Parliament today,
0:09:52 > 0:09:54Clare Moody, the MEP who lives in Salisbury, spoke very
0:09:54 > 0:09:57passionately about this incident.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59So there's huge support from the colleagues
0:09:59 > 0:10:01in the European Parliament, because this is an
0:10:01 > 0:10:04atrocious incident.
0:10:04 > 0:10:07I mean, it is actually quite unbelievable what happened.
0:10:07 > 0:10:09And there are two people very seriously ill.
0:10:09 > 0:10:13But I knew nothing about these chemicals until this incident.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15And I've read quite a bit now.
0:10:15 > 0:10:16It's very frightening.
0:10:16 > 0:10:19We ought to be quite terrified that they exist, and they do exist.
0:10:19 > 0:10:23And beyond the detail of how can I be certain, look,
0:10:23 > 0:10:27I'm no expert in these issues but I have to believe
0:10:27 > 0:10:30what you're saying in terms of the security services.
0:10:30 > 0:10:33What troubles me about this incident is that it will not blow over very
0:10:33 > 0:10:38easily or very quickly.
0:10:38 > 0:10:41And you know that the European Union, because of Crimea,
0:10:41 > 0:10:42put sanctions on Russia.
0:10:42 > 0:10:45In a sense, we had to do that but it has emboldened,
0:10:45 > 0:10:50perhaps, the Russian spirit.
0:10:50 > 0:10:53Europe took a hit at the time, with products not being
0:10:53 > 0:10:54allowed into Russia.
0:10:54 > 0:10:58I'm not sure what will happen next because of this incident.
0:10:58 > 0:11:01I listened live to the Russian ambassador to the UN,
0:11:01 > 0:11:05and he didn't pull his punches last night when he spoke.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08And he used some very harsh words about the British intelligence
0:11:08 > 0:11:11service and rejected totally.
0:11:11 > 0:11:16But if not Russia, who else?
0:11:16 > 0:11:21And really, I think the big question for us is, how are we going to stop
0:11:21 > 0:11:25these type of chemicals in existence, first of all,
0:11:25 > 0:11:27and how do we get rid of them?
0:11:27 > 0:11:28And that is the big challenge.
0:11:28 > 0:11:30But I would worry about the consequences
0:11:30 > 0:11:32in the medium and long-term.
0:11:32 > 0:11:34This is going to drag on quite a bit.
0:11:34 > 0:11:36We'll come onto that in just a moment.
0:11:36 > 0:11:39You, sir, on gangway.
0:11:39 > 0:11:44To echo your point, Mairead, if this spy who has connections
0:11:44 > 0:11:49with Russia is killed by chemicals, attacked by chemicals that are known
0:11:49 > 0:11:53to be in the hands of Russia, and Russia refuses to answer
0:11:53 > 0:11:57questions about it, who else are we to blame?
0:11:57 > 0:11:59Who else could possibly possess these weapons, have a reason
0:11:59 > 0:12:02to go after this person?
0:12:02 > 0:12:04Do you just want to answer that?
0:12:04 > 0:12:0616 countries are supposed to have this.
0:12:06 > 0:12:08Obviously Britain has this chemical weapon at Porton Down.
0:12:08 > 0:12:12Anyway, I think this certainty is very dangerous.
0:12:12 > 0:12:15And of course it's been said many times before that Putin,
0:12:15 > 0:12:18who has an election on Sunday, about to have a World Cup,
0:12:18 > 0:12:21trying to put Russia on the big stage and stop this pariah status it
0:12:21 > 0:12:24has in Nato nations.
0:12:24 > 0:12:28Not very good timing for him, is it?
0:12:28 > 0:12:29It's terrible timing for him.
0:12:29 > 0:12:34It's a truly, truly appalling act.
0:12:34 > 0:12:36There is no excuse for it whatsoever.
0:12:36 > 0:12:40But I'd like to address the gentleman's question.
0:12:40 > 0:12:42Could you say your question again, sir?
0:12:42 > 0:12:44I asked how can you be certain beyond doubt
0:12:44 > 0:12:49that it was the Russian state?
0:12:49 > 0:12:50I think that's the key.
0:12:50 > 0:12:53I am not so sure.
0:12:53 > 0:12:55You see, one has to understand, and there's a lot of ignorance
0:12:55 > 0:13:00about how Russia, how it operates.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02And there are various agencies within Russia,
0:13:02 > 0:13:07intelligence agencies, such as the GRU, the MSV.
0:13:07 > 0:13:12And they've had a kind of autonomy, really since the Soviet times.
0:13:12 > 0:13:15They've not been touched at all.
0:13:15 > 0:13:18Now, one of these agencies would probably have access to this
0:13:18 > 0:13:26very nerve agent that we're talking about.
0:13:26 > 0:13:30And it seems to me that as good a scenario is actually
0:13:30 > 0:13:33of a rogue element.
0:13:33 > 0:13:37And that's even more dangerous, much more dangerous than what's going on.
0:13:37 > 0:13:41A rogue element who decides that they are going to...
0:13:41 > 0:13:44And they have long memories.
0:13:44 > 0:13:49This gentleman that's been attacked, and his daughter, tragically,
0:13:49 > 0:13:54he is not liked by certain people.
0:13:54 > 0:13:56I don't want to interrupt you, but if it's a rogue element,
0:13:56 > 0:13:59was it right of the Prime Minister and the government to expel
0:13:59 > 0:14:0023 Russian diplomats?
0:14:00 > 0:14:03And was it right of America and the others to sign
0:14:03 > 0:14:08the letter that they did?
0:14:08 > 0:14:09I'm not sure about that.
0:14:09 > 0:14:11I question it, but I accept it.
0:14:11 > 0:14:14As an authority, I would say, OK, fine, clearly there has been
0:14:14 > 0:14:20scrupulousness in the decision for that, so I won't question it.
0:14:20 > 0:14:22But at the same time, I do think there's a fundamental
0:14:22 > 0:14:25element that is missing in relationship to,
0:14:25 > 0:14:30as this gentleman said, was the state responsible?
0:14:30 > 0:14:36Now, as has been said, the state, Putin puts himself in a terrible
0:14:36 > 0:14:39state by having this incident happening now.
0:14:39 > 0:14:43Why would he want it to happen now, as he is heading up for an election,
0:14:43 > 0:14:45as he's embracing the World Cup?
0:14:45 > 0:14:52It doesn't make any sense.
0:14:52 > 0:14:52If
0:14:52 > 0:14:53All right.
0:14:53 > 0:14:54Absolutely makes no sense.
0:14:54 > 0:14:56You up there, in the white shirt, sir.
0:14:56 > 0:14:57Yes.
0:14:57 > 0:15:00I find it quite ridiculous that the bloke from
0:15:00 > 0:15:01Russia Today is still towing this line.
0:15:01 > 0:15:03Given Russia's chequered history, with chemical weapons,
0:15:03 > 0:15:05they're backing the Assad regime in Syria...
0:15:05 > 0:15:08However, I'd probably toe the line of Vladimir Putin given
0:15:08 > 0:15:10what he does to his enemies.
0:15:10 > 0:15:13I should just say about chemical weapons.
0:15:13 > 0:15:15I'm not actually saying Russia didn't do it either.
0:15:15 > 0:15:18I'm just saying, question what you're being told by
0:15:18 > 0:15:22the Prime Minister and the intelligence she's receiving.
0:15:22 > 0:15:25I'm not saying either - the Russians could
0:15:25 > 0:15:27have done it, it could have been the Kremlin.
0:15:27 > 0:15:29All right, person in blue there?
0:15:29 > 0:15:33If Parliament really thinks that this was Russia, should all UK
0:15:33 > 0:15:37political parties give back any donations given from Russia?
0:15:37 > 0:15:43APPLAUSE
0:15:43 > 0:15:45Chris Grayling, you know that was a point raised by Jeremy
0:15:45 > 0:15:47Corbyn on Monday.
0:15:47 > 0:15:50Do you think the Tory Party should give back donations from Russia?
0:15:50 > 0:15:53There are strict laws on political donations in this country.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55They have to be given by British citizens,
0:15:55 > 0:15:58or British businesses.
0:15:58 > 0:16:01The Defence Secretary took money from Russia.
0:16:01 > 0:16:04I think it's a really serious question about money here
0:16:04 > 0:16:09because it's really important that we go after some of the money
0:16:09 > 0:16:10that's here in this country that's being used
0:16:10 > 0:16:11for all sorts of purposes.
0:16:11 > 0:16:13It shouldn't be.
0:16:13 > 0:16:15There are measures in place where the Labour Party have
0:16:15 > 0:16:17been pushing the Government to go even further.
0:16:17 > 0:16:18I hope they now will.
0:16:18 > 0:16:22I think there's an inclination to do so but we've been forcing this issue
0:16:22 > 0:16:23because it's very important.
0:16:23 > 0:16:25There's a lot of money around which ought to
0:16:25 > 0:16:27be seized, which isn't being seized at the moment.
0:16:27 > 0:16:28We've got to crack down.
0:16:28 > 0:16:31In every way I support the action that's being taken but I think
0:16:31 > 0:16:35we should go even further in some respects and I think the Government
0:16:35 > 0:16:37may go down that route and I hope they do.
0:16:37 > 0:16:40What does the effect of cutting down, or finding this money
0:16:40 > 0:16:43in terms of what happened in Salisbury, does it have any effect
0:16:43 > 0:16:44on that?
0:16:44 > 0:16:47I'll come to you next.
0:16:47 > 0:16:48I am sorry.
0:16:48 > 0:16:51It doesn't have a direct effect.
0:16:51 > 0:16:54I accept these are separate things in the sense this was an
0:16:54 > 0:16:55appalling attack.
0:16:55 > 0:16:58There is and has been for a long time a lot of
0:16:58 > 0:17:02money that should have been tracked down and used in this country and we
0:17:02 > 0:17:04haven't been good enough at doing that, particularly in relation to
0:17:04 > 0:17:05Russian oligarchs.
0:17:05 > 0:17:07That is why we need to...
0:17:07 > 0:17:10It has been allowed to go on for far too long.
0:17:10 > 0:17:13What is the Defence Secretary with 30,000 of Russian money,
0:17:13 > 0:17:15Boris Johnson 20,000?
0:17:15 > 0:17:17What are these ties of huge amounts of money to your party?
0:17:17 > 0:17:19Is that the question you want to put?
0:17:19 > 0:17:21Chris Grayling, I'll come to you.
0:17:21 > 0:17:22The woman there.
0:17:22 > 0:17:24Yes.
0:17:24 > 0:17:26I'd like to actually quote your previous client, the widow of
0:17:26 > 0:17:28Alexander Litvinenko.
0:17:28 > 0:17:29Marina.
0:17:29 > 0:17:30Sorry, Maria.
0:17:30 > 0:17:33Yes.
0:17:33 > 0:17:37She has actually said publicly that she feels the Conservatives
0:17:37 > 0:17:38should be very careful about their donors,
0:17:38 > 0:17:41particularly looking at the Russians.
0:17:41 > 0:17:43All right, Chris Grayling.
0:17:43 > 0:17:46Are you going to answer this or have you got another question?
0:17:46 > 0:17:47You said it's legal.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50The point is, why do they want to give money to the
0:17:50 > 0:17:51Tory Party?
0:17:51 > 0:17:54What do they get back from giving money to the Tory Party?
0:17:54 > 0:17:57APPLAUSE
0:17:57 > 0:18:00The simple reality, you can't accept money
0:18:00 > 0:18:04from people who are not UK citizens, or UK businesses.
0:18:04 > 0:18:10This is the wife of the Russian Deputy Finance Minister.
0:18:10 > 0:18:11The wife of the former Russian...
0:18:11 > 0:18:14Putin's Deputy Finance Minister at a fundraising event.
0:18:14 > 0:18:17Gavin Williamson, the Defence Secretary of this country,
0:18:17 > 0:18:18who protects the national security of this country.
0:18:18 > 0:18:1930,000.
0:18:19 > 0:18:20That's Russian money.
0:18:20 > 0:18:22We have rules about political donations.
0:18:22 > 0:18:23We follow those rules.
0:18:23 > 0:18:25They are properly scrutinised.
0:18:25 > 0:18:29What we must not do, we have a lot of people who are
0:18:29 > 0:18:31Russian, who are now UK citizens, who live
0:18:31 > 0:18:33in London, who have actually left Russia because of their
0:18:33 > 0:18:35distaste of the regime there.
0:18:35 > 0:18:38We should not tar those people the brush...
0:18:38 > 0:18:42Where do you think she got the 30,000 to give the Defence
0:18:42 > 0:18:42Secretary?
0:18:42 > 0:18:47Let's move on to another aspect of this that is worrying people.
0:18:47 > 0:18:49Martin Prince, can I have your question?
0:18:49 > 0:18:53Mr Prince...
0:18:53 > 0:18:56Does the panel now feel we have now entered a new Cold War?
0:18:56 > 0:18:58Have we entered a new Cold War?
0:18:58 > 0:19:02You start on that.
0:19:02 > 0:19:06I was probably alluding to my fears about that when I said, it's not
0:19:06 > 0:19:09just this incident and the reaction to it, it's the medium and long-term
0:19:09 > 0:19:10consequences.
0:19:10 > 0:19:12And this isn't just the start of the process.
0:19:12 > 0:19:14If I talk to my colleagues from the Baltic
0:19:14 > 0:19:16member states, they live in fear and, in fact,
0:19:16 > 0:19:22they look to Europe and Nato force for support.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25And it's only when you talk in detail to them about how
0:19:25 > 0:19:30their lives were and how they're terrified again.
0:19:30 > 0:19:36So, if you now have the UK, France, the US and, what was the fourth...?
0:19:36 > 0:19:39Germany, very strongly coming out, and the Russians will feel this.
0:19:39 > 0:19:43There will be a response.
0:19:43 > 0:19:45And what I would really be concerned about is,
0:19:45 > 0:19:53how long are we going to have this...?
0:19:55 > 0:19:57It is a battle, a diplomatic battle, a difficult one
0:19:57 > 0:19:58at the moment.
0:19:58 > 0:20:01How long will this last and how will it be fixed?
0:20:01 > 0:20:02It has to be fixed with words.
0:20:02 > 0:20:04To go back to money.
0:20:04 > 0:20:06Money is a very corrupting thing.
0:20:06 > 0:20:10Unfortunately.
0:20:10 > 0:20:12And, sometimes, people with money are looked
0:20:12 > 0:20:13at slightly different from
0:20:13 > 0:20:16those who don't have money in terms of political reaction and I'm not
0:20:16 > 0:20:19saying that of the UK because I don't have the experience or
0:20:19 > 0:20:22knowledge but I think this is a global issue, that money can
0:20:22 > 0:20:23find its place for security.
0:20:23 > 0:20:26What has this got to do with the Cold War question?
0:20:26 > 0:20:29I think it is part of this general sense of fear that is there
0:20:29 > 0:20:32about Russia and its potential to interfere, not just this horrible
0:20:32 > 0:20:33incident.
0:20:33 > 0:20:36For example, there was a report in the Sunday Times that the
0:20:36 > 0:20:38embassy in Dublin was part of, if you like,
0:20:38 > 0:20:42almost an espionage team.
0:20:42 > 0:20:45They had more people in the embassy and they've
0:20:45 > 0:20:47made it bigger and, so
0:20:47 > 0:20:50much so, that the ambassador to Ireland today brought in the media
0:20:50 > 0:20:52to say that is not the case.
0:20:52 > 0:20:58But I don't quite get what you're saying
0:20:58 > 0:21:01- you talk about money all the time and we know a large...
0:21:01 > 0:21:03Billions and billions of pounds have come out
0:21:03 > 0:21:08of Russia to the West.
0:21:08 > 0:21:10Are you saying that is creating the conditions of a Cold War?
0:21:10 > 0:21:14No, that isn't creating the conditions but I
0:21:14 > 0:21:16think it's something that the West has to acknowledge
0:21:16 > 0:21:17and decide whether it
0:21:17 > 0:21:20is positive or negative for our relationships with Russia.
0:21:20 > 0:21:21All right.
0:21:21 > 0:21:22Does it skew our relationships?
0:21:22 > 0:21:23Keir Starmer.
0:21:23 > 0:21:25I think this is a really important question.
0:21:25 > 0:21:27What happens next really matters for all of us.
0:21:27 > 0:21:30I think many people had hoped that the end of the Cold War
0:21:30 > 0:21:32would mark an opportunity for a new relationship
0:21:32 > 0:21:34with Russia, based on
0:21:34 > 0:21:37the rule of law, on the protection and respect of human rights.
0:21:37 > 0:21:38But that hasn't happened.
0:21:38 > 0:21:42And this has to be seen in its proper context.
0:21:42 > 0:21:45I've mentioned Marina Litvinenko and the work I did with her, but the
0:21:45 > 0:21:46list is a long one.
0:21:46 > 0:21:49Crimea, what's happened in Ukraine, the assault on
0:21:49 > 0:21:52lesbian and gay rights that's gone on.
0:21:52 > 0:21:55The Syrian attacks.
0:21:55 > 0:21:59There is a whole list.
0:21:59 > 0:22:02We could go on and on in terms of where the relationship has
0:22:02 > 0:22:03gone wrong.
0:22:03 > 0:22:06Now, that has been a missed opportunity to reset the
0:22:06 > 0:22:09relationship with Russia, which would have stabilised the world,
0:22:09 > 0:22:12allowed a more peaceful coexistence.
0:22:12 > 0:22:17And we need to tackle all of this in the round.
0:22:17 > 0:22:21I absolutely agree this has got to be done through words and
0:22:21 > 0:22:24Jeremy Corbyn said the response has got to be proportionate.
0:22:24 > 0:22:25And he's right about that.
0:22:25 > 0:22:27This has to be dealt with carefully.
0:22:27 > 0:22:29We've got to be robust about what we stand for.
0:22:29 > 0:22:37But really the litany of things in the last few years that Russia's
0:22:37 > 0:22:41been involved in only has to be gone through for people to see this is a
0:22:41 > 0:22:42missed opportunity.
0:22:42 > 0:22:44The man in the third row, yeah?
0:22:44 > 0:22:46If we are about to enter another Cold War with Russia,
0:22:46 > 0:22:48and we turn the money off to the oligarchs,
0:22:48 > 0:22:50remove the spies from the
0:22:50 > 0:22:52UK, how do we continue then to protect our police officers and
0:22:52 > 0:22:55members of the public who are also impacted by this chemical attack?
0:22:55 > 0:22:59Chris Grayling.
0:22:59 > 0:23:01The truth is we've got to be good at our intelligence,
0:23:01 > 0:23:04we've got to do everything we possibly can to prevent anything
0:23:04 > 0:23:05like this from happening again.
0:23:05 > 0:23:07And it is a mix of response.
0:23:07 > 0:23:09We've got to seek to change Russia through
0:23:09 > 0:23:10diplomatic means.
0:23:10 > 0:23:13At the same time we've got to be robust in responding
0:23:13 > 0:23:14when things happen.
0:23:14 > 0:23:16And that may be our response right now to the
0:23:16 > 0:23:18terrible events in Salisbury.
0:23:18 > 0:23:19It is also about making sure
0:23:19 > 0:23:22that our friends in the Baltic states receive proper support.
0:23:22 > 0:23:23That is why we are providing military
0:23:23 > 0:23:26support right now to give those nations comfort that we are with
0:23:26 > 0:23:29them, we are on their side.
0:23:29 > 0:23:31So we've got to be strong and resolute
0:23:31 > 0:23:36in the face of a threat.
0:23:36 > 0:23:38We've got to seek to use diplomacy to ease threat away.
0:23:38 > 0:23:40Are we reaching a Cold War?
0:23:40 > 0:23:42I think certainly it's the worst in my lifetime.
0:23:42 > 0:23:48It's like a Cuban missile crisis.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50Theresa May seems to want.
0:23:50 > 0:23:55Obviously, Vladimir Putin can turn off the lights in the
0:23:55 > 0:23:57studio because of appalling energy strategic decisions over decades in
0:23:57 > 0:24:00this country, how we have allowed Russia to have such an important
0:24:00 > 0:24:02role in our energy sector, I don't know.
0:24:02 > 0:24:03800 British troops.
0:24:03 > 0:24:05What are they doing on the Russian border?
0:24:05 > 0:24:08What we heard from Moscow was, do not threaten a nuclear power.
0:24:08 > 0:24:09The stakes have never been higher.
0:24:09 > 0:24:11If Vladimir Putin is indeed running a
0:24:11 > 0:24:14rogue state, he won't hesitate, presumably, to kill us all.
0:24:14 > 0:24:19Or, can one actually talk to him?
0:24:19 > 0:24:23This litany that this man who used to run the CPS, and you are talking
0:24:23 > 0:24:24about it, Ukraine, Serbia.
0:24:24 > 0:24:25Ukraine.
0:24:25 > 0:24:27There was a coup in Ukraine.
0:24:27 > 0:24:29We have the tapes of the US ambassador.
0:24:29 > 0:24:33Listen to them on YouTube.
0:24:33 > 0:24:39These are real tapes.
0:24:39 > 0:24:41This was an organised coup d'etat in Ukraine.
0:24:41 > 0:24:44The Crimean people, what is Keir Starmer trying to say?
0:24:44 > 0:24:46The people of Crimea want to be part of Russia.
0:24:46 > 0:24:48We're going to force them to be part of Ukraine.
0:24:48 > 0:24:50You know what is worse about this?
0:24:50 > 0:24:52I think the Russian people, quite apart from Putin see
0:24:52 > 0:24:54this, is US supporting Banderas and right-wing anti-Semitic
0:24:54 > 0:24:57movements in the centre of Ukraine, who are part of this coup, fascists,
0:24:57 > 0:25:02Nazis.
0:25:02 > 0:25:04When the trade union building burned in Ukraine,
0:25:04 > 0:25:06these are the people you are supporting.
0:25:06 > 0:25:08You don't need to support Russia to say this
0:25:08 > 0:25:11is what is most serious for this country is national-security.
0:25:11 > 0:25:13And I believe the steps taken this week
0:25:13 > 0:25:14have endangered our national security.
0:25:14 > 0:25:17Russia is in a broad alliance with the BRICS countries.
0:25:17 > 0:25:20Russia is in an alliance with China and the big superpowers of the
0:25:20 > 0:25:24century.
0:25:24 > 0:25:27Post Brexit we're going to make friends, I am sure we are going
0:25:27 > 0:25:28to get over this.
0:25:28 > 0:25:29This is a very dangerous stage.
0:25:29 > 0:25:31Woman the second row from the back.
0:25:31 > 0:25:32Yes.
0:25:32 > 0:25:35I don't think we can tackle this issue in isolation.
0:25:35 > 0:25:38I think it does require our partners in Europe and with the
0:25:38 > 0:25:42UN particularly to begin to think about increasing sanctions.
0:25:42 > 0:25:45So we've got to do it in partnership.
0:25:45 > 0:25:53In fact, the president of the council,
0:25:58 > 0:26:01Donald Tusk, wants it on the agenda for next week's Prime Minister's
0:26:01 > 0:26:02meeting in Brussels.
0:26:02 > 0:26:03We're leaving Europe.
0:26:03 > 0:26:04Brian Cox.
0:26:04 > 0:26:05Sorry to stop you.
0:26:05 > 0:26:08From a security point of view, I don't think the UK is leaving
0:26:08 > 0:26:10Europe, I have to say.
0:26:10 > 0:26:11Brian Cox, please.
0:26:11 > 0:26:13I think we are about to enter into a Cold War.
0:26:13 > 0:26:14I think it is unavoidable.
0:26:14 > 0:26:17And it's a war that's based on total greed.
0:26:17 > 0:26:24I think we have allowed things to get out of
0:26:24 > 0:26:26hand, particularly in our relationship to how the City became
0:26:26 > 0:26:28a kind of laundromat for illegal money from Russia.
0:26:28 > 0:26:31And the Americans are not much better, especially with
0:26:31 > 0:26:39that clown who is running the show over there.
0:26:39 > 0:26:41I think we have...
0:26:41 > 0:26:44This is inevitable.
0:26:44 > 0:26:48This is what has happened is when you have two
0:26:48 > 0:26:52narcissists, one like Trump and Putin, it is a very unhealthy state
0:26:52 > 0:26:56of affairs when the so-called leader of the free world is the man that he
0:26:56 > 0:27:01is and the so-called leader of the East Bloc
0:27:01 > 0:27:06is the man that he is, then obviously we're moving towards
0:27:06 > 0:27:08some kind of Cold War.
0:27:08 > 0:27:10Some kind of idiocy of some kind.
0:27:10 > 0:27:13Barbara Wilkinson, let's just have your question.
0:27:13 > 0:27:16I just want to put it to the two politicians here.
0:27:16 > 0:27:24Barbara Wilkinson.
0:27:29 > 0:27:32Would the security of the UK be safe in Jeremy
0:27:32 > 0:27:33Corbyn's hands, if he became Prime Minister?
0:27:33 > 0:27:36Just put it to you, Chris Grayling and then Keir Starmer.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39My view is I would be deeply uncomfortable about the security of
0:27:39 > 0:27:41the UK if Jeremy Corbyn became Prime Minister.
0:27:41 > 0:27:43I have to say what's different about the Labour Party.
0:27:43 > 0:27:46We've been through swings of a political pendulum over the years.
0:27:46 > 0:27:48I didn't go to bed at night with past
0:27:48 > 0:27:50Labour governments worried about the security of the United Kingdom.
0:27:50 > 0:27:52There's many people in the Labour Party
0:27:52 > 0:27:54today who, if they were in
0:27:54 > 0:27:56power, I might not want them in power,
0:27:56 > 0:27:57but wouldn't be worried about the
0:27:57 > 0:27:58security of the United Kingdom.
0:27:58 > 0:28:00In the case of the current leadership,
0:28:00 > 0:28:02Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell, who have not condemned the Russian
0:28:02 > 0:28:06state, who I am afraid are unsupportive of institutions like
0:28:06 > 0:28:08Nato, I would be profoundly concerned about the security of the
0:28:08 > 0:28:09United Kingdom.
0:28:09 > 0:28:12Keir Starmer...
0:28:12 > 0:28:18Chris is obviously worried about an early election coming out
0:28:18 > 0:28:20with those old demons.
0:28:20 > 0:28:26Of course it would.
0:28:26 > 0:28:30Jeremy Corbyn has shown, through the election campaign he ran
0:28:30 > 0:28:32campaign he ran last year, precisely the leadership that's
0:28:32 > 0:28:35needed on these issues.
0:28:35 > 0:28:37He's got a broad team with myself included, got
0:28:37 > 0:28:38very serious attitudes to these questions.
0:28:38 > 0:28:45Of course it will be safe under Labour.
0:28:45 > 0:28:46Don't just listen to this rubbish that is put out
0:28:46 > 0:28:48because people don't want...
0:28:48 > 0:28:50What Chris doesn't want you to hear and
0:28:50 > 0:28:53think about is the transformation in our society that needs to happen.
0:28:53 > 0:28:56We've been yearning for change for a very long time.
0:28:56 > 0:28:58There is huge inequality in our country, across
0:28:58 > 0:28:59our country, on almost every level.
0:28:59 > 0:29:07It needs to change.
0:29:07 > 0:29:09In order to stop that change, this thing is
0:29:09 > 0:29:14peddled that somehow Jeremy Corbyn can't be trusted.
0:29:14 > 0:29:19It's not right, it's not true.
0:29:19 > 0:29:21Look at the people he has in his Shadow Cabinet.
0:29:21 > 0:29:24They have huge experience in this area.
0:29:24 > 0:29:26Look at what the voting record of the Labour Shadow Cabinet has
0:29:26 > 0:29:28been since the election.
0:29:28 > 0:29:29No.
0:29:29 > 0:29:30Seriously.
0:29:30 > 0:29:31This is just an attempt to undermine the
0:29:31 > 0:29:34real change that needs to go on in our country.
0:29:34 > 0:29:35Take a couple more points.
0:29:35 > 0:29:37The man in the red shirt.
0:29:37 > 0:29:39On this point about Labour and Corbyn.
0:29:39 > 0:29:42Corbyn has a long record of blaming Nato and the Western world that
0:29:42 > 0:29:43any problems with the Soviet Union.
0:29:43 > 0:29:46He has always been a useful idiot, one of Stalin's useful idiots.
0:29:46 > 0:29:52And the person over there on the outside.
0:29:52 > 0:29:54I don't think there's anything wrong when it comes to the
0:29:54 > 0:29:55security of our nation.
0:29:55 > 0:30:03So I have every confidence in Jeremy Corbyn's
0:30:03 > 0:30:06cautiousness.
0:30:06 > 0:30:08Thank you.
0:30:08 > 0:30:09We'll go on.
0:30:09 > 0:30:10We'll go on.
0:30:10 > 0:30:11We're halfway through the programme.
0:30:11 > 0:30:12Let's go on to another question.
0:30:12 > 0:30:15Just before we do, we're going to be in Leeds next week.
0:30:15 > 0:30:18Our audience is all going to be under the age of 30.
0:30:18 > 0:30:21And after that programme in Leeds, we're taking a break for Easter.
0:30:21 > 0:30:23We are in Liverpool on April the 12th.
0:30:23 > 0:30:25So next week, Leeds, Liverpool, April 12.
0:30:25 > 0:30:27And there on the screen is how to apply.
0:30:27 > 0:30:30So if you want to do that, I'll give the details at the end.
0:30:30 > 0:30:32That's the way to get to us.
0:30:32 > 0:30:34Ben Nurden, can we have your question, please?
0:30:34 > 0:30:36Jean-Claude Juncker again said this week that Britain
0:30:36 > 0:30:37is going to regret leaving the EU.
0:30:37 > 0:30:39With this continuing bullish and threatening rhetoric,
0:30:39 > 0:30:42how does Britain hope to strike a positive deal in the EU
0:30:42 > 0:30:44if they are not prepared to cooperate and compromise?
0:30:44 > 0:30:45Threatening rhetoric.
0:30:45 > 0:30:46APPLAUSE
0:30:46 > 0:30:51Mairead McGuinness, threatening rhetoric from Jean-Claude Juncker.
0:30:51 > 0:30:53I mean, did you actually listen to the voice he used?
0:30:53 > 0:30:55It wasn't threatening.
0:30:55 > 0:30:58It was interesting that the leader of Ukip immediately jumped up
0:30:58 > 0:31:01and talked about being bullied.
0:31:01 > 0:31:03You are a big and great nation.
0:31:03 > 0:31:06It's not as if you are not strong.
0:31:06 > 0:31:10Can I just finish the point and then I will listen in response.
0:31:10 > 0:31:11Let me just finish, sir.
0:31:11 > 0:31:15You are able to fight your corner.
0:31:15 > 0:31:18What we're trying to do, my colleague said this week
0:31:18 > 0:31:21in the parliament he believed this is bad for everybody,
0:31:21 > 0:31:23for the United Kingdom and the European Union.
0:31:23 > 0:31:24I share that view.
0:31:24 > 0:31:27We're trying to limit the damage that it might have on our people,
0:31:27 > 0:31:30both the UK and the European Union.
0:31:30 > 0:31:33And to some extent I think the emotion has gone out
0:31:33 > 0:31:35of the Brexit debate, because we accept it's happening.
0:31:35 > 0:31:38I regret that, but it is happening.
0:31:38 > 0:31:41What we are trying to do is find a way to keep us close,
0:31:41 > 0:31:45and around security we need to be close, but on other issues as well.
0:31:45 > 0:31:49But how we square that with the red lines that the Prime Minister has
0:31:49 > 0:31:53put forward, way back, just after the referendum happened,
0:31:53 > 0:31:57around leaving the customs union and the single market.
0:31:57 > 0:32:00Now, we are going to have to find a solution, so to some extent
0:32:00 > 0:32:03I would have hoped that the idea that you are being bullied
0:32:03 > 0:32:05by Europe has dissipated.
0:32:05 > 0:32:08Then why would he say, "You will regret your decision"?
0:32:08 > 0:32:10What business is it of his to say we'll regret our decision
0:32:10 > 0:32:13when people like Chris Grayling have argued for it and won
0:32:13 > 0:32:15a referendum on it?
0:32:15 > 0:32:18Can I just say to you, off camera we were having a big
0:32:18 > 0:32:19discussion about freedom of speech.
0:32:19 > 0:32:22If the head of the commission cannot say that he thinks
0:32:22 > 0:32:24you will regret your decision, it's his view.
0:32:24 > 0:32:25It's not a bullying view.
0:32:25 > 0:32:28He actually genuinely believes that.
0:32:28 > 0:32:31And he believes it not for the leaders, but for the people
0:32:31 > 0:32:34of the United Kingdom.
0:32:34 > 0:32:35Do you believe it, too?
0:32:35 > 0:32:36Are you with him on this?
0:32:36 > 0:32:38You, no, you.
0:32:38 > 0:32:40Oh, I was looking at the gentleman.
0:32:40 > 0:32:41We know his view.
0:32:41 > 0:32:46Well, I think so, yeah.
0:32:46 > 0:32:48I represent, for example, a border constituency
0:32:48 > 0:32:49with Northern Ireland.
0:32:49 > 0:32:51All of the counties border with Northern Ireland.
0:32:51 > 0:32:52We have a very good relationship.
0:32:52 > 0:32:54We didn't have in the past.
0:32:54 > 0:32:56Terrible things happened on the island of Ireland
0:32:56 > 0:32:57in Northern Ireland, and you were impacted
0:32:57 > 0:32:59here in this country as well.
0:32:59 > 0:33:0120 years ago we had the Good Friday Agreement,
0:33:01 > 0:33:03and life is so much better.
0:33:03 > 0:33:05And the people I represent are really concerned
0:33:05 > 0:33:07about what might happen if there is no deal,
0:33:07 > 0:33:10if there is a bad deal.
0:33:10 > 0:33:16So when you talk about what Jean-Claude Juncker said,
0:33:16 > 0:33:18I would really be surprised that anyone thought he was bullying,
0:33:18 > 0:33:20because I was in the chamber.
0:33:20 > 0:33:22I chaired a lot of the debate as well.
0:33:22 > 0:33:24So I had a sense of it.
0:33:24 > 0:33:27And to some extent when I listen to those, and there are many
0:33:27 > 0:33:29people who are pro-Brexit, probably in this audience as well,
0:33:29 > 0:33:31and I respect your point of view.
0:33:31 > 0:33:34But in the parliament now to some extent, the hiss
0:33:34 > 0:33:35is there but the steam has gone.
0:33:35 > 0:33:38Because actually we accept your decision but we're trying to find
0:33:38 > 0:33:42a way that we don't damage each other in the process.
0:33:42 > 0:33:44And we are in this port, and we will probably talk
0:33:44 > 0:33:46about what might happen here if things go wrong.
0:33:46 > 0:33:48For my country, look how peripheral we are.
0:33:48 > 0:33:51We use the land bridge to get our goods to the continent.
0:33:51 > 0:33:54So I think we should stop talking about "he said,
0:33:54 > 0:33:57she said, I feel bullied, they are getting at me".
0:33:57 > 0:33:59I think you're bigger than that.
0:33:59 > 0:34:00Chris Grayling.
0:34:00 > 0:34:08APPLAUSE
0:34:08 > 0:34:10I think you have to remember there's going to be some
0:34:10 > 0:34:12strong emotions in this, and for people in Brussels
0:34:12 > 0:34:14who believe passionately in further European integration
0:34:14 > 0:34:16and the European Union, our decision is a setback.
0:34:16 > 0:34:19They are unhappy about it in terms of the agreement.
0:34:19 > 0:34:21I happen to take a different view.
0:34:21 > 0:34:23I'm very confident in the future of this country.
0:34:23 > 0:34:25I'm absolutely committed that we should remain good
0:34:25 > 0:34:26friends and neighbours.
0:34:26 > 0:34:31As a government we are committed to getting a sensible deal that
0:34:31 > 0:34:34means we carry on working together in the areas where we need to,
0:34:34 > 0:34:36we carry on cooperating.
0:34:36 > 0:34:38But we have simply taken the decision to follow
0:34:38 > 0:34:40a different political path.
0:34:40 > 0:34:41So it's absolutely essential.
0:34:41 > 0:34:44My experience in talking to my counterparts in other EU
0:34:44 > 0:34:47countries is that they want that, they want good relations.
0:34:47 > 0:34:51And I think we have to get over the noise that you hear
0:34:51 > 0:34:53in a complex negotiation, where strong things are said
0:34:53 > 0:34:57from time to time, and simply work towards the outcome we all want,
0:34:57 > 0:35:01which is a sensible partnership, a sensible trade arrangement,
0:35:01 > 0:35:05a smooth Brexit, and something that works for everyone on both
0:35:05 > 0:35:09sides of the debate.
0:35:09 > 0:35:12So you don't buy the argument that the EU wants to be particularly
0:35:12 > 0:35:15tough in order to prevent other members of the EU taking
0:35:15 > 0:35:18the same route as Britain?
0:35:18 > 0:35:21I've no doubt there are those who have that view.
0:35:21 > 0:35:23We have to be robust in our negotiations.
0:35:23 > 0:35:26This process is going to be one where there's toing and froing.
0:35:26 > 0:35:30I think what the Prime Minister did in her speech ten days ago is set
0:35:30 > 0:35:33out what I think is a very sensible approach, recognising the issues
0:35:33 > 0:35:36on the other side of the debate, setting out the need
0:35:36 > 0:35:37for that continuing partnership.
0:35:37 > 0:35:40We just have to reach a sensible resolution and I think
0:35:40 > 0:35:41on that we would agree.
0:35:41 > 0:35:43Kier Starmer, and then I'll come to you.
0:35:43 > 0:35:46I don't think anybody can quarrel with the fact that negotiations
0:35:46 > 0:35:48are going slowly and badly.
0:35:48 > 0:35:49And the tone was bad...
0:35:49 > 0:35:55APPLAUSE
0:35:55 > 0:35:56The tone was bad from the start.
0:35:56 > 0:35:58And I'm afraid that started on our side.
0:35:58 > 0:35:59Whose tone?
0:35:59 > 0:36:03We were very belligerent, very strong red lines were put out.
0:36:03 > 0:36:07Boris Johnson didn't help the UK cause.
0:36:07 > 0:36:10Instead of saying constructively how do we get through this,
0:36:10 > 0:36:14the government went down a chaotic, ill thought through route,
0:36:14 > 0:36:18with all sorts of blocked endings, before they actually could get
0:36:18 > 0:36:20to the place they wanted to get to.
0:36:20 > 0:36:24Now, I accept that the tone has changed from the government
0:36:24 > 0:36:27on this, but they got off to a very bad start.
0:36:27 > 0:36:30I think everybody needs to dial this down and we need to remember
0:36:30 > 0:36:31what we are talking about here.
0:36:31 > 0:36:32Europe is our history.
0:36:32 > 0:36:36We've shared values with Europe, we will trade with Europe
0:36:36 > 0:36:38in the future and we need to collaborate and cooperate.
0:36:38 > 0:36:41And what we were talking about before, the terrible attacks
0:36:41 > 0:36:45we were talking about before, that's just an example of why the UK
0:36:45 > 0:36:48will always need to be working with its EU partners.
0:36:48 > 0:36:50We need to be constructive about this to get the right
0:36:50 > 0:36:54decisions to a set of very complicated challenges that
0:36:54 > 0:36:56have been set up for us.
0:36:56 > 0:36:58The man in the front row.
0:36:58 > 0:37:05The situation is, if I may say, we had a referendum.
0:37:05 > 0:37:07The majority of the people voted to come out of it.
0:37:07 > 0:37:11As a government, and as a shadow government, you weren't
0:37:11 > 0:37:15expecting that result.
0:37:15 > 0:37:17You were so confident you weren't going to get the result,
0:37:17 > 0:37:19you don't actually know what you're going to do.
0:37:19 > 0:37:22We need to get on with it.
0:37:22 > 0:37:27I think the events in Salisbury are a smoke screen, possibly,
0:37:27 > 0:37:31and an excuse for us to try and hop on the bandwagon and say we should
0:37:31 > 0:37:36remain in Europe as part of an international security.
0:37:36 > 0:37:42The man there.
0:37:42 > 0:37:45Can it not be said that the EU only agreed to continue negotiations once
0:37:45 > 0:37:49we agreed to pay them a sum of money, so really, is the EU only
0:37:49 > 0:37:51worried about the fact that we are going to prop
0:37:51 > 0:37:53up their economy, as we are the second
0:37:53 > 0:37:54largest economy in the EU?
0:37:54 > 0:37:57And good for you, being the second largest economy, but I don't accept
0:37:57 > 0:37:59the premise of your question at all.
0:37:59 > 0:38:02We struggled before the end of the year to get
0:38:02 > 0:38:04over the first phase.
0:38:04 > 0:38:06We have to have a withdrawal agreement.
0:38:06 > 0:38:07There is a legal way of doing this.
0:38:07 > 0:38:09You can't do it any other way.
0:38:09 > 0:38:11Or else there is absolute chaos, global chaos.
0:38:11 > 0:38:15The UK signed up to commitments up to 2020, and while initially
0:38:15 > 0:38:18your government said, "No, we wouldn't pay,
0:38:18 > 0:38:21or we will pay very little", it now understands that
0:38:21 > 0:38:22the commitments have to be met.
0:38:22 > 0:38:25We are going to be paying until 2064, apparently.
0:38:25 > 0:38:27I'm going to stop you, because I must bring in other
0:38:27 > 0:38:28members of the panel.
0:38:28 > 0:38:30Apologies, but I have more to say on this.
0:38:30 > 0:38:32Yes, I'm sure.
0:38:32 > 0:38:36If I'm allowed, and I hope I'm allowed, thank you.
0:38:36 > 0:38:38Brian Cox.
0:38:38 > 0:38:40Fives into 60.
0:38:40 > 0:38:41We have 60 minutes and five people.
0:38:41 > 0:38:49Yes, but I'm the only woman on the panel.
0:38:49 > 0:38:50Brian Cox.
0:38:50 > 0:38:51Sorry, Brian.
0:38:51 > 0:38:55No, it's OK.
0:38:55 > 0:38:57I think it's a disaster, I really do.
0:38:57 > 0:39:04APPLAUSE
0:39:04 > 0:39:06I don't think...
0:39:06 > 0:39:10If there ever was a time for a united Europe, it is now.
0:39:10 > 0:39:12Politically, we need to be united.
0:39:12 > 0:39:15We do not need to be separate.
0:39:15 > 0:39:16APPLAUSE
0:39:16 > 0:39:19We really need, you know, because we are very
0:39:19 > 0:39:20vulnerable at the moment.
0:39:20 > 0:39:22We've just seen it, and it's not a smoke screen.
0:39:22 > 0:39:24It happened.
0:39:24 > 0:39:26It's not a smoke screen at all.
0:39:26 > 0:39:28It's absolutely not.
0:39:28 > 0:39:30I completely disagree with you there.
0:39:30 > 0:39:32There are two people lying in a hospital.
0:39:32 > 0:39:34They will tell you it's not a smoke screen.
0:39:34 > 0:39:35It certainly isn't.
0:39:35 > 0:39:36That really angers me.
0:39:36 > 0:39:39I'm sorry, but it does anger me.
0:39:39 > 0:39:40And I do feel that...
0:39:40 > 0:39:44I do think we brought it upon ourselves.
0:39:44 > 0:39:48I think the Remain campaign was a disaster, a total disaster.
0:39:48 > 0:39:53And actually Brexit is a much sexier word than Remain.
0:39:53 > 0:39:58I think people actually go more for the word than anything else.
0:39:58 > 0:40:01That got you going, didn't it?
0:40:01 > 0:40:05Anyway, I just feel that at this time we need strength.
0:40:05 > 0:40:08When you've got what you have in Russia and when you have what's
0:40:08 > 0:40:13going on in the country I live in, this country, this Europe,
0:40:13 > 0:40:17this continent needs to be strong.
0:40:17 > 0:40:20And it needs to really be strong, and it's not being strong.
0:40:20 > 0:40:24And all this argy-bargy that is going on about this
0:40:24 > 0:40:27and that, it's just weakening who we are, and they
0:40:27 > 0:40:28are laughing at us.
0:40:28 > 0:40:32The Russians are actually laughing at us.
0:40:32 > 0:40:36You, the man in the blue shirt.
0:40:36 > 0:40:39If unity is so important, why are you so for a Scottish referendum
0:40:39 > 0:40:42and Scottish independence?
0:40:42 > 0:40:43It's not...
0:40:43 > 0:40:44Because...
0:40:44 > 0:40:45APPLAUSE
0:40:45 > 0:40:49I'll answer that.
0:40:49 > 0:40:51We wanted to stay in Europe.
0:40:51 > 0:40:52We didn't want to leave Europe.
0:40:52 > 0:40:54Leaving England is a different thing.
0:40:54 > 0:40:56What is the question?
0:40:56 > 0:40:59Give me the question again.
0:40:59 > 0:41:01You said it.
0:41:01 > 0:41:02Afshin.
0:41:02 > 0:41:04Europe doesn't allow countries to leave the European Union,
0:41:04 > 0:41:08even after referendums.
0:41:08 > 0:41:10That's obvious.
0:41:10 > 0:41:12And the scare stories that now we are talking about,
0:41:12 > 0:41:15the European Union so quick to come to our support over Salisbury.
0:41:15 > 0:41:17Interesting that, because we were really looking
0:41:17 > 0:41:19for Nato support first.
0:41:19 > 0:41:21Why the EU so quickly?
0:41:21 > 0:41:23Mairead, my editor at RT is Going Underground
0:41:23 > 0:41:28is from Monaghan, on the border there, knows the atrocities
0:41:28 > 0:41:30committed by both sides, by the British Army,
0:41:30 > 0:41:32may I say.
0:41:32 > 0:41:36Is there some threat via Brussels for violence in Ireland?
0:41:36 > 0:41:40What is going to continue happening?
0:41:40 > 0:41:42Depending on what you believe, whether you believe, like Brian,
0:41:42 > 0:41:46or you believe like Chris Grayling.
0:41:46 > 0:41:48In fairness, Chris Grayling and Jeremy Corbyn have
0:41:48 > 0:41:51always been on that side to a certain extent, arguably.
0:41:51 > 0:41:56There was a vote, and there should be no threats
0:41:56 > 0:42:00against the British people to stop what the British people want.
0:42:00 > 0:42:03Of course there was a vote.
0:42:03 > 0:42:06But the peace in Ireland was hard won, and for 20
0:42:06 > 0:42:07years we've had peace.
0:42:07 > 0:42:14APPLAUSE
0:42:14 > 0:42:15But Brexit won't ruin that.
0:42:15 > 0:42:18It's not about a technical question of whether you can get goods
0:42:18 > 0:42:20and people over a border, although, of course
0:42:20 > 0:42:21it is about that.
0:42:21 > 0:42:23It is about two communities that came together, put
0:42:23 > 0:42:28aside their differences.
0:42:28 > 0:42:31The fact there is no border, that is a manifestation
0:42:31 > 0:42:35that is in the hearts of everybody that lives in and
0:42:35 > 0:42:36cares about Ireland.
0:42:36 > 0:42:38It's about who we are and what we believe in.
0:42:38 > 0:42:42You were talking about this the other day.
0:42:42 > 0:42:43Sometimes on a panel, somebody says something
0:42:43 > 0:42:45just to be provocative.
0:42:45 > 0:42:48Brussels is threatening a hard border.
0:42:48 > 0:42:51Europe is not threatening...
0:42:51 > 0:42:53Do you understand anything about the customs union
0:42:53 > 0:42:54and the single market?
0:42:54 > 0:42:57Do you know how it works?
0:42:57 > 0:43:00According to Chris Grayling, we're leaving.
0:43:00 > 0:43:03I'm not giving a view on either side, I'm just talking
0:43:03 > 0:43:04about the negotiations.
0:43:04 > 0:43:07I was hesitant about coming on this programme, because in a way
0:43:07 > 0:43:08this is your business.
0:43:08 > 0:43:10But it's actually my business too, because I represent.
0:43:10 > 0:43:12I'm first vice president of the European Parliament.
0:43:12 > 0:43:13I came in hesitation.
0:43:13 > 0:43:15I thought I mightn't get much love.
0:43:15 > 0:43:18But it's warm, which is nice.
0:43:24 > 0:43:26Well, that was rather more than I anticipated!
0:43:26 > 0:43:27Yes.
0:43:27 > 0:43:30#metoo, Brian.
0:43:30 > 0:43:34No.
0:43:34 > 0:43:35There is political correctness.
0:43:35 > 0:43:37See what I mean?
0:43:37 > 0:43:39You were right.
0:43:39 > 0:43:41#youtoo.
0:43:41 > 0:43:42But to go back to...
0:43:42 > 0:43:45I have to make a tough point.
0:43:45 > 0:43:50My teenage years were littered with stories of horror.
0:43:50 > 0:43:52Every single day there was an atrocity, either murder,
0:43:52 > 0:43:54children, it was just horrendous.
0:43:54 > 0:43:57I have four children, and thank God they don't have a clue
0:43:57 > 0:43:59about that except I remind them.
0:43:59 > 0:44:03We should remind ourselves this happened.
0:44:03 > 0:44:06And our relationships as people was not good.
0:44:06 > 0:44:09But do you have a clue how there's going to be an open border
0:44:09 > 0:44:11between Northern Ireland and the rest of
0:44:11 > 0:44:12Ireland after Brexit?
0:44:12 > 0:44:15I don't think the United Kingdom has a clue.
0:44:15 > 0:44:16But do you have a clue?
0:44:16 > 0:44:21I have a political conviction that a hard border on the island
0:44:21 > 0:44:23of Ireland will not happen.
0:44:23 > 0:44:25And where there is a political will, there's a way.
0:44:25 > 0:44:28And in addition, the British Prime Minister,
0:44:28 > 0:44:29Theresa May, has said the same.
0:44:29 > 0:44:32I accept what she's saying.
0:44:32 > 0:44:35And the European Union supports the Irish position.
0:44:35 > 0:44:38It cannot happen.
0:44:38 > 0:44:40On the other hand, it's hard to square the circle if you're
0:44:40 > 0:44:43going to leave the customs union and single market.
0:44:43 > 0:44:45But we have an agreement from December.
0:44:45 > 0:44:47Three options are on the table.
0:44:47 > 0:44:50One is that we do this with a very good trade agreement where this
0:44:50 > 0:44:52problem doesn't arise.
0:44:52 > 0:44:55The second is through some special mechanisms that we haven't heard
0:44:55 > 0:44:59of yet, and the third is regulatory alignment between Northern Ireland
0:44:59 > 0:45:02and the Republic of Ireland, which caused the Democratic Unionist
0:45:02 > 0:45:06Party to suggest that that meant a border in the Irish Sea.
0:45:06 > 0:45:09I make the point that I want no borders in Europe.
0:45:09 > 0:45:11I want Europeans to be united.
0:45:11 > 0:45:13But I'm Irish, you're British.
0:45:13 > 0:45:15We have our own identity.
0:45:15 > 0:45:20And I support Brian's very passionate plea for European unity.
0:45:20 > 0:45:22It is in our best interests.
0:45:22 > 0:45:25I cannot understand why this idea that somebody would say,
0:45:25 > 0:45:28you're being bullied by Europe.
0:45:28 > 0:45:30It's not in our interest to bully anybody.
0:45:30 > 0:45:31And it doesn't work, frankly.
0:45:31 > 0:45:34People will not be bullied.
0:45:34 > 0:45:39I don't want to bully you but I want to bring in Chris Grayling.
0:45:39 > 0:45:41Two points.
0:45:41 > 0:45:44The first is, we're absolutely clear, there will not,
0:45:44 > 0:45:47there should not be, there must not be, any kind of hard
0:45:47 > 0:45:48border in the island of Ireland.
0:45:48 > 0:45:51We don't think there's any need to.
0:45:51 > 0:45:54We put forward ideas about how to achieve that but, actually,
0:45:54 > 0:45:57your list is what we are really working towards which is a sensible
0:45:57 > 0:46:02trading partnership for the future.
0:46:02 > 0:46:09The other point is I absolutely refuse to accept that Britain
0:46:09 > 0:46:12to leave the European Union - needs to leave - to return
0:46:12 > 0:46:14to the Troubles in Northern Ireland.
0:46:14 > 0:46:21Nobody wants that.
0:46:22 > 0:46:24Nobody wants to do anything to make that happen.
0:46:24 > 0:46:27We in the United Kingdom and our friends in Ireland will do
0:46:27 > 0:46:30everything we can to make sure that never happens again.
0:46:30 > 0:46:31And I support them.
0:46:31 > 0:46:32I think nobody wants that.
0:46:32 > 0:46:33Nobody believes that will happen.
0:46:33 > 0:46:35Remember, since the referendum, relationships between the two
0:46:35 > 0:46:37communities, which had become closer, is now more divided.
0:46:37 > 0:46:39There is no assembly in Northern Ireland,
0:46:39 > 0:46:41people had no political representation, and there is concern
0:46:41 > 0:46:43amongst ordinary people who don't get involved in politics
0:46:43 > 0:46:45about what their future will be.
0:46:45 > 0:46:47Many of my constituents live where they vote but work
0:46:47 > 0:46:48in Northern Ireland.
0:46:48 > 0:46:49Keir Starmer.
0:46:49 > 0:46:50OK.
0:46:50 > 0:46:53Chris is quite right that we don't want a hard border
0:46:53 > 0:46:55in Northern Ireland but, Chris, is there any credible voice
0:46:55 > 0:46:58out there, anybody in Ireland, Northern Ireland, and any part
0:46:58 > 0:47:01of the UK saying, you can achieve what we all want to achieve
0:47:01 > 0:47:04in Northern Ireland without being in a customs union with the EU?
0:47:04 > 0:47:05Because that is no credible voice.
0:47:05 > 0:47:06That is not there.
0:47:06 > 0:47:08That is why the Labour Party position of, say, negotiating
0:47:08 > 0:47:14a comprehensive EU customs union is so important.
0:47:14 > 0:47:16It doesn't solve completely the problem of the border
0:47:16 > 0:47:21but, without it...
0:47:21 > 0:47:24If you have tariffs, you have got to have a border
0:47:24 > 0:47:25is what you're saying, in effect.
0:47:25 > 0:47:26Chris Grayling...
0:47:26 > 0:47:29He's saying, if you have tariffs, you have to have a border.
0:47:29 > 0:47:30What's the answer?
0:47:30 > 0:47:32How do you have tariffs but no border?
0:47:32 > 0:47:35We have set out in detail how you can make that work.
0:47:35 > 0:47:37The point of the Labour Party...
0:47:37 > 0:47:40The Labour Party position appears to be, not to be in the current
0:47:40 > 0:47:43customs union but to have a new one in which they seem to suggest
0:47:43 > 0:47:46the European Union will allow us to be equal partners in agreeing
0:47:46 > 0:47:47trade deals around the world.
0:47:47 > 0:47:49The European Union is not suggesting that will happen.
0:47:49 > 0:47:51So, I'm afraid, your position simply doesn't add up.
0:47:51 > 0:47:53Our proposals have been seen...
0:47:53 > 0:47:55Be quick.
0:47:55 > 0:48:00We have got another question to fit in.
0:48:00 > 0:48:02What's incredible about the position that Jeremy Corbyn set out
0:48:02 > 0:48:05in Coventry the other week was that, not only did the trade
0:48:05 > 0:48:08union and labour movement think it was a good idea
0:48:08 > 0:48:09but the business community.
0:48:09 > 0:48:11It was a good idea and, across Europe, people
0:48:11 > 0:48:14said this could work.
0:48:14 > 0:48:16People said, here's a credible, serious proposition has
0:48:16 > 0:48:17been put on the table.
0:48:17 > 0:48:20Much more credible and serious than the Government's chaotic approach.
0:48:20 > 0:48:22The woman bang in the middle there, please.
0:48:22 > 0:48:23Then I will take one more question.
0:48:23 > 0:48:29Yes.
0:48:29 > 0:48:31One of the things I wanted to say is why should
0:48:31 > 0:48:32the European Community came into existence after
0:48:32 > 0:48:33the Second World War?
0:48:33 > 0:48:36The one aim is to keep peace and unite the people of Europe.
0:48:36 > 0:48:38The man with the glasses on.
0:48:38 > 0:48:39Yes.
0:48:39 > 0:48:40Yes, you.
0:48:40 > 0:48:42Down in the blue with the spectacles.
0:48:42 > 0:48:46Isn't that why we have Nato?
0:48:46 > 0:48:47Isn't that why...?
0:48:47 > 0:48:48OK.
0:48:48 > 0:48:50We don't have to be in the European Union
0:48:50 > 0:48:51to be united as Europe.
0:48:51 > 0:48:55We can all be friends with each other.
0:48:55 > 0:48:56We're talking...
0:48:56 > 0:48:57OK.
0:48:57 > 0:48:58You are leaving.
0:48:58 > 0:49:00We are in Dover.
0:49:00 > 0:49:04We have had more questions on this one Dover topic.
0:49:04 > 0:49:12When we were in Blackpool everyone wanted to talk about fracking.
0:49:12 > 0:49:14We are in Dover and guess what the question is?
0:49:14 > 0:49:16We have six or seven minutes left.
0:49:16 > 0:49:17It's back to the EU and Brexit.
0:49:17 > 0:49:21Trevor Ottaway, let's have your question, please?
0:49:21 > 0:49:23Will the Garden of England become the lorry park
0:49:23 > 0:49:29of England after Brexit?
0:49:29 > 0:49:36And, of course, Kent, where David is, is the Garden of England.
0:49:36 > 0:49:38-- Dover is.
0:49:38 > 0:49:41And the lorry park, because it is estimated
0:49:41 > 0:49:45with queues 29 miles long, would be the result of a two minute
0:49:45 > 0:49:47minute check on lorries going through Dover.
0:49:47 > 0:49:48Chris Grayling, you are the Transport Minister,
0:49:48 > 0:49:50the Transport Secretary.
0:49:50 > 0:49:52What are you going to do to prevent it?
0:49:52 > 0:49:56The answer is, absolutely not, for two reasons.
0:49:56 > 0:49:59The first is that we will maintain a free-flowing border at Dover.
0:49:59 > 0:50:01We will not impose checks in the port.
0:50:01 > 0:50:03It was utterly unrealistic to do so.
0:50:03 > 0:50:05We don't check lorries now and when not going to be checking
0:50:05 > 0:50:07lorries in Dover in the future.
0:50:07 > 0:50:09Absolutely clear, it cannot happen.
0:50:09 > 0:50:15My second point...
0:50:15 > 0:50:17It can't and it won't.
0:50:17 > 0:50:19Because you're in Europe now, so there are no checks.
0:50:19 > 0:50:24When you leave Europe, there may be checks.
0:50:24 > 0:50:28Let me be clear.
0:50:28 > 0:50:31We will not, in any circumstances, create a hard border in Dover that
0:50:31 > 0:50:33requires to stop every lorry in the port of Dover.
0:50:33 > 0:50:37It's not possible to do it.
0:50:37 > 0:50:40What will you do when have tariffs between Europe and us?
0:50:40 > 0:50:42We will not stop lorries in the port of Dover.
0:50:42 > 0:50:49Goods flow through borders almost seamlessly anyway.
0:50:49 > 0:50:57Go to some of our ports on the east coast that take goods from outside
0:50:57 > 0:51:00the European Union where the goods flow through smoothly and depart
0:51:00 > 0:51:02pretty much as soon as they arrive.
0:51:02 > 0:51:04That is what has got to happen.
0:51:04 > 0:51:07The insurance from the Secretary of State for Transport.
0:51:07 > 0:51:09Let's hear from some of the people in the audience.
0:51:09 > 0:51:11You, with your hand up there in the middle.
0:51:11 > 0:51:12Yes.
0:51:12 > 0:51:15There was a recent survey by the Royal College which has been
0:51:15 > 0:51:18endorsed by the port of Dover and by the local MP,
0:51:18 > 0:51:21Charlie Elphick, which exactly states that.
0:51:21 > 0:51:24It will lead to a 29 mile tailback on the A20.
0:51:24 > 0:51:26I will come to you in a minute.
0:51:26 > 0:51:29Clearly Chris Grayling has said Tory policy is the same as Jeremy Corbyn,
0:51:29 > 0:51:31there is going to be a customs union.
0:51:31 > 0:51:33So, you don't have anything to worry about in Dover at all.
0:51:33 > 0:51:35I presume that is what he said.
0:51:35 > 0:51:36OK.
0:51:36 > 0:51:37The person up there.
0:51:37 > 0:51:40I want to point that we already have a lorry park in Dover,
0:51:40 > 0:51:41it's called the A20.
0:51:41 > 0:51:49Every two nights a week, we get it just up the road.
0:51:49 > 0:51:50And you over here.
0:51:50 > 0:51:52Basically, it ties in with the previous question as well.
0:51:52 > 0:51:54You are saying about the hard border between Northern
0:51:54 > 0:51:55Ireland and the Republic.
0:51:55 > 0:51:57There is no need for a hard border.
0:51:57 > 0:52:00If you want to move livestock in this country, you have
0:52:00 > 0:52:07to create a movement licence.
0:52:07 > 0:52:10It takes a moment to create and everyone knows who needs to know
0:52:10 > 0:52:12and it goes out to everyone and you move.
0:52:12 > 0:52:15There is no reason why you can't have goods...
0:52:15 > 0:52:17The trucks will move through the border without stopping.
0:52:17 > 0:52:18We will manage them electronically.
0:52:18 > 0:52:20That happens between Canada and the United States.
0:52:20 > 0:52:22I really cannot believe that you have said that.
0:52:22 > 0:52:24To leave the customs union and single market mean something.
0:52:24 > 0:52:26I would rather you stayed.
0:52:26 > 0:52:28I am hoping that you will change your mind.
0:52:28 > 0:52:30It has consequences.
0:52:30 > 0:52:36What we are trying to do is limit the damage of what might happen.
0:52:36 > 0:52:38Remember, for the Irish Road haulage Association,
0:52:38 > 0:52:40this is a nightmare.
0:52:40 > 0:52:44It is a nightmare.
0:52:44 > 0:52:46It is a nightmare for a lot of our industries, our agriculture,
0:52:46 > 0:52:48for food production.
0:52:48 > 0:52:51So, I think what you are saying has got to be, if you like,
0:52:51 > 0:52:54matched by a paper that tells me how.
0:52:54 > 0:53:02Because you have not said how it will happen.
0:53:02 > 0:53:09We are trying to have a good relationship around trade but it
0:53:09 > 0:53:12will be different than we have now and, to quote your Prime Minister
0:53:12 > 0:53:14in her speech last week, she said, things will be...
0:53:14 > 0:53:16We will be doing less together on trade.
0:53:16 > 0:53:19So, how can you say there will not be queues at the border
0:53:19 > 0:53:22when you are leaving the very gathering that allows us to have
0:53:22 > 0:53:23freedom of trade deals?
0:53:23 > 0:53:25I would be interested to know how.
0:53:25 > 0:53:28The only reason we would have queues at the border is if we put
0:53:28 > 0:53:32into place restrictions to create the queues.
0:53:32 > 0:53:34We are not going to do that.
0:53:34 > 0:53:35You have to have borders.
0:53:35 > 0:53:40Fair is fair.
0:53:40 > 0:53:42I came here about two or three months ago,
0:53:42 > 0:53:46I wanted to spend the day looking at the port for myself and talking
0:53:46 > 0:53:47through the problems
0:53:47 > 0:53:50with the Port Authority and staff, who are doing an incredible job
0:53:50 > 0:53:53getting 10,000 freight lorries through in a day and they do it
0:53:53 > 0:53:55with a two-minute gap to stop and check each one.
0:53:55 > 0:53:58That is really incredible because of our position in the EU.
0:53:58 > 0:54:02There are other lorries, as you will know, but not going to the EU.
0:54:02 > 0:54:04I think it is 2% or 3% that go through Dover
0:54:04 > 0:54:12and they take a lot longer.
0:54:12 > 0:54:15That is the reality if you don't have a customs union,
0:54:15 > 0:54:18there will be queues.
0:54:18 > 0:54:22You have changed your tone.
0:54:22 > 0:54:24In October last year, when you were asked,
0:54:24 > 0:54:25what is the solution?
0:54:25 > 0:54:27You said the solution is Operation Stack.
0:54:27 > 0:54:28Well,...
0:54:28 > 0:54:29No, I didn't.
0:54:29 > 0:54:30That is not the case.
0:54:30 > 0:54:32I did not say that.
0:54:32 > 0:54:34Up there at the back, the very back.
0:54:34 > 0:54:36The man at the back.
0:54:36 > 0:54:37What are you going to do?
0:54:37 > 0:54:39I'm going to read out a statement from Chris Grayling.
0:54:39 > 0:54:42We have already had provision in place for Operation Stack around
0:54:42 > 0:54:43the port at the moment.
0:54:43 > 0:54:45We have a whole airfield available to use...
0:54:45 > 0:54:46Completely out of context.
0:54:46 > 0:54:47Completely out of context.
0:54:47 > 0:54:50We have so many statements out of context, don't we?
0:54:50 > 0:54:51Something completely different.
0:54:51 > 0:54:55Man at the back.
0:54:55 > 0:54:57Should we not all just also acknowledge it is the EU
0:54:57 > 0:55:00which obliges member states to ensure their borders,
0:55:00 > 0:55:02their external borders, are fully controlled with watching
0:55:02 > 0:55:04people coming in and out and checks.
0:55:04 > 0:55:07What do you think would happen here in Dover?
0:55:07 > 0:55:10If we want an open border, which we do want in Ireland,
0:55:10 > 0:55:13which we do want in Dover, it is still the EU which obliges
0:55:13 > 0:55:17their states to control their borders and they want to close
0:55:17 > 0:55:18that off for the UK and for Ireland and the South.
0:55:18 > 0:55:19Brian Cox.
0:55:19 > 0:55:21Sorry.
0:55:21 > 0:55:28I couldn't hear what he said.
0:55:28 > 0:55:31Taking you back to the original question, is this place
0:55:31 > 0:55:32going to become a lorry park?
0:55:32 > 0:55:35Could be.
0:55:35 > 0:55:38I think the customs union is the best idea and I don't
0:55:38 > 0:55:39think that seems to be...
0:55:39 > 0:55:40It is so logical.
0:55:40 > 0:55:42It's simple and it seems to serve everybody.
0:55:42 > 0:55:43Why don't we do it?
0:55:43 > 0:55:45I don't understand why there is resistance to it?
0:55:45 > 0:55:48Sorry.
0:55:48 > 0:55:52Who is saying that?
0:55:52 > 0:55:57Let's get the microphone to you.
0:55:57 > 0:55:58Go on.
0:55:58 > 0:55:59Who, me?
0:55:59 > 0:56:02The reason why we don't want to be in the customs union and the reason
0:56:02 > 0:56:06why we want to be out of the single market is because we then have
0:56:06 > 0:56:07to comply with the EU regulations.
0:56:07 > 0:56:11And what we do by being out of it, we don't have freedom of movement,
0:56:11 > 0:56:13control our own destiny, our democracy, and where we want
0:56:13 > 0:56:15to go in the future.
0:56:15 > 0:56:20You in the front.
0:56:20 > 0:56:23Those of us who live in East Kent will tell you,
0:56:23 > 0:56:25and you will see the evidence as you drive home tonight, that
0:56:25 > 0:56:27East Kent already is a lorry park.
0:56:27 > 0:56:35The lay-by 's are full of lorries from one end to the other.
0:56:37 > 0:56:38Anybody else want coming on this?
0:56:38 > 0:56:39Go on.
0:56:39 > 0:56:40Fire away.
0:56:40 > 0:56:42We got a minute left.
0:56:42 > 0:56:43Yes.
0:56:43 > 0:56:49Fire away.
0:56:49 > 0:56:52The geniuses have actually decided that the Manston airfield will be
0:56:52 > 0:56:53where Operation Stack is.
0:56:53 > 0:56:55Has anybody tried to get a truck around that?
0:56:55 > 0:57:03The transport...
0:57:03 > 0:57:05Hang on, you have had a good say.
0:57:05 > 0:57:09Let me have a go.
0:57:09 > 0:57:11The transport system in Thanet is already in congestion.
0:57:11 > 0:57:14To add to it, a further load of vehicles is just unbelievable.
0:57:14 > 0:57:17What they do as they put out a load of portable toilets along
0:57:17 > 0:57:24there and they have just got to try and run them through the villages,
0:57:24 > 0:57:28from the A229 in there and, by some genius
0:57:28 > 0:57:31means, it's got to then filter back all the way into Dover.
0:57:31 > 0:57:33So it has got to go back through Canterbury.
0:57:33 > 0:57:34All right.
0:57:34 > 0:57:35A very brief last word.
0:57:35 > 0:57:36Really brief.
0:57:36 > 0:57:37The gentleman's point.
0:57:37 > 0:57:39The regulation was an irritant and people voted
0:57:39 > 0:57:40against your regulation.
0:57:40 > 0:57:41Two points.
0:57:41 > 0:57:43The Prime Minister has actually wrote back,
0:57:43 > 0:57:46because she wants to stay with the European Medicines Agency.
0:57:46 > 0:57:51It is good regulation.
0:57:51 > 0:57:59The Chemicals Agency is good regulation.
0:58:01 > 0:58:03And the Food Safety Agency I hope you will stay with because that
0:58:03 > 0:58:07got us out of the BSE crisis that was from the United Kingdom.
0:58:07 > 0:58:08And it's done great work.
0:58:08 > 0:58:12The second point is, if you do move away,
0:58:12 > 0:58:15and I think it's old managed divergence.
0:58:15 > 0:58:17You have then got to check more at the borders
0:58:17 > 0:58:19because you have different rules
0:58:19 > 0:58:20and regulations and different standards.
0:58:20 > 0:58:22So I would like us to stay close on regulation.
0:58:22 > 0:58:23OK.
0:58:23 > 0:58:24Point made.
0:58:24 > 0:58:25Thank you very much.
0:58:25 > 0:58:26Our time is up.
0:58:26 > 0:58:30In fact I think we have probably gone on a bit too long.
0:58:30 > 0:58:32Next Thursday we are going to be in Leeds.
0:58:32 > 0:58:34We have the transgender rights activist on the panel.
0:58:34 > 0:58:36I don't yet know who the other four will be.
0:58:36 > 0:58:38And then, after Easter, on 12th of April, we're
0:58:38 > 0:58:40going to be in Liverpool.
0:58:40 > 0:58:43You can apply to join on the number below or you can write
0:58:43 > 0:58:50to the address below, our website, and apply there.
0:58:50 > 0:58:52Question Time Extra Time with Adrian Chiles starts now on BBC
0:58:52 > 0:58:555Live and you can watch as well by pressing the red button
0:58:55 > 0:58:57or going to the BBC iPlayer.
0:58:57 > 0:58:59But, from here in Dover, from the ferry terminal,
0:58:59 > 0:59:01and this wonderful setting, my thanks to our panel
0:59:01 > 0:59:03and all of you who came here.
0:59:03 > 0:59:04Until next week, good night.