:00:00. > :00:00.stabbed in the stomach when he tried to go to Jo Cox's aid, has been
:00:00. > :00:11.Just days till the vote and the referendum
:00:12. > :00:28.Should the UK leave the EU or remain a member? Those on both sides of the
:00:29. > :00:30.argument will be debating here in Glasgow.
:00:31. > :00:33.Also on the programme, rail workers are set to strike.
:00:34. > :00:35.Industrial actions scheduled for tomorrow after talks break down
:00:36. > :00:38.And Celtic's new manager trains his new squad,
:00:39. > :01:04.as the draws are made for Scotland's football teams in Europe.
:01:05. > :01:07.Good evening and welcome to a specially extended edition
:01:08. > :01:08.of Reporting Scotland which includes our EU
:01:09. > :01:13.But first today's news, and with just days to go
:01:14. > :01:16.to the vote, the sides in Scotland have stepped up their campaigning.
:01:17. > :01:19.The First Minister told nurses that leaving the EU would end up harming
:01:20. > :01:26.But Ukip's Scottish leader said Nicola Sturgeon couldn't be trusted.
:01:27. > :01:35.This from our political editor Brian Taylor.
:01:36. > :01:41.The referendum is dominant and so addressing the Royal College of
:01:42. > :01:45.Nursing Congress in Glasgow, the First Minister took care to make her
:01:46. > :01:51.own position clear. I will be voting to remain in the EU on Thursday and
:01:52. > :01:56.I hope others will do so, too. She told the nurses a British exit would
:01:57. > :02:00.damage the NHS as economic decline would bring spending cuts, and she
:02:01. > :02:04.broadened her case. I think it is still looking close across the UK,
:02:05. > :02:08.which is why it is really important that everybody who wants to remain
:02:09. > :02:13.part of the world's biggest single market, to protect our freedom of
:02:14. > :02:16.travel across the EU, to protect workers' rights and the notion that
:02:17. > :02:20.countries come together in the modern world to work together for
:02:21. > :02:29.the greater good, if that is all important to you it is vital to get
:02:30. > :02:34.out and vote Remain on Thursday. Look straight into this camera...
:02:35. > :02:38.Ever obliging, the Ukip Scottish leader follows photographic advice.
:02:39. > :02:43.He says Nicola Sturgeon, be trusted on the NHS as her own record is
:02:44. > :02:48.poor. For him, this referendum is about choice and the UK we gaining
:02:49. > :02:53.control. My campaign message is voted to leave the European Union.
:02:54. > :02:58.It is in Scotland's interests. We get to decide who runs our country,
:02:59. > :03:06.we get our fishermen back, and we get to be run by our own Parliament,
:03:07. > :03:09.not Brussels, by Holyrood, so make sure we make our own decisions and
:03:10. > :03:14.we can throw people out once every five years. Our democratically
:03:15. > :03:20.elected colleague Jo Cox... five years. Our democratically
:03:21. > :03:25.afternoon, in Westminster, tributes to MP Jo Cox, who was shot dead. MPs
:03:26. > :03:29.united today is wearing the white rose of her native Yorkshire. But
:03:30. > :03:30.they and voters will divide once more for the referendum this
:03:31. > :03:35.Thursday. Rail passengers across Scotland
:03:36. > :03:37.are facing the first in a series of strikes tomorrow,
:03:38. > :03:48.after talks at the conciliation The RMT union says ScotRail wants
:03:49. > :03:53.to water down and wipe out the safety role of the guard
:03:54. > :03:55.on long-distance journeys, ScotRail say this is nonsense
:03:56. > :03:59.and the majority of services Here's our correspondent Andrew
:04:00. > :04:10.Kerr. Raising a flag about rail safety. A
:04:11. > :04:12.protest outside HQ this morning. At the moment, on long-distance diesel
:04:13. > :04:18.trains there is a guard and driver and the God operates the doors. On
:04:19. > :04:22.the electrified suburban routes, where 59% of journeys take place,
:04:23. > :04:28.there is a driver and ticket examiner but the driver operates the
:04:29. > :04:32.doors. -- guard. ScotRail says it wants to reduce the safety role of
:04:33. > :04:38.the gods, replacing the role with ticket examiners. When there has to
:04:39. > :04:42.be an evacuation, the ticket collector is not trained for that,
:04:43. > :04:49.and people like to see guards on trains. As of reasons, but it is the
:04:50. > :04:51.critical safety role, evacuations, the protection of the travelling
:04:52. > :04:56.public. That's what we want to maintain. Scott well have expressed
:04:57. > :05:02.their frustration, saying safety and jobs are not at risk. -- ScotRail.
:05:03. > :05:04.They say they want to get back around the table for
:05:05. > :05:09.negotiations in around a round who opens and closes doors. For 30 years
:05:10. > :05:12.we have operated a safe system. They say it does not exist. 59% of
:05:13. > :05:17.our customers today travel So it is so disingenuous, so
:05:18. > :05:30.avoidable and unnecessary. So it is so disingenuous, so
:05:31. > :05:34.efforts to resolve the strike failed at the conciliation service in
:05:35. > :05:38.Glasgow at lunchtime. The prospect of a strike can be annoying for any
:05:39. > :05:42.travellers in any part of the country but for commuters in the
:05:43. > :05:44.central belt it is particularly frustrating, as they are facing long
:05:45. > :05:45.journeys already because of the Queen street
:05:46. > :05:51.improvement works. It's taken 50 minutes to come
:05:52. > :05:57.through and it's pretty me right off. Not good. Trains are cancelled
:05:58. > :06:04.or delayed. I'm going down to Yorkshire so it
:06:05. > :06:05.won't affect me. It is or was frustrating. You plan your day ahead
:06:06. > :06:11.and you hope that is what is going to happen so you
:06:12. > :06:18.take the best. -- always frustrating. Another six days of
:06:19. > :06:20.action are planned, with passengers being urged to check their journeys
:06:21. > :06:25.online before travelling. There's been a further
:06:26. > :06:26.fall in crimes reported They fell by just over 3% in
:06:27. > :06:31.the year to the end of last March. There were fewer murders but overall
:06:32. > :06:34.violent crime was up by 5.6%, with serious assaults rising
:06:35. > :06:38.by just under a quarter. Sexual crimes also increased,
:06:39. > :06:41.although police say many of these offences were historical,
:06:42. > :06:47.and there were fewer rapes. Celtic's summer break
:06:48. > :06:49.is over already. New manager Brendan Rodgers
:06:50. > :06:52.and his squad had their first And there was an immediate focus
:06:53. > :06:57.on the European Champions League, as the qualifying draw
:06:58. > :07:10.was made this morning. Monday afternoon in Lennoxtown, and
:07:11. > :07:15.Brendan Rodgers gets his first chance to look at the Celtic
:07:16. > :07:18.players. And he must hit the ground running. Success vital in the
:07:19. > :07:21.Champions League campaign which begins in just over three weeks.
:07:22. > :07:30.He's very experienced individual, he has looked after many clubs call and
:07:31. > :07:32.he has a good understanding. He's followed the club for a long time
:07:33. > :07:43.and he understands the pressure that comes with the job. Celtic will face
:07:44. > :07:47.a trip to either the Estonian side or Lincoln of cobalt. The first leg
:07:48. > :07:52.will be away on the 12th or 13th of July, with a returned the following
:07:53. > :07:59.week. The more likely opponents to emerge from the first qualifying
:08:00. > :08:03.round tie will be the Estonian club. It has never been relegated from the
:08:04. > :08:07.Estonian top division. But also battling to meet Celtic are the link
:08:08. > :08:13.red imps, a semiprofessional club from Gibraltar. As we all was do, we
:08:14. > :08:19.will approach the game with the preparation done and make sure we do
:08:20. > :08:24.our homework. -- always do. The team should be fully prepared going into
:08:25. > :08:28.the game because we can take no chances with it being the Champions
:08:29. > :08:35.League. Celtic have lost in the final play-off round in the last two
:08:36. > :08:37.season. -- seasons. Their aim is to reach the final Champions League
:08:38. > :08:40.group stages. And Scotland has three other teams
:08:41. > :08:43.in European action next season. The draw for the qualifying rounds
:08:44. > :08:45.of the Europa League In ten days' time, Aberdeen will be
:08:46. > :08:49.at home to Fola Esch, from Luxembourg, while in Edinburgh,
:08:50. > :08:52.Hearts play Infonet of Estonia. Hibernian will meet Valur Reykjavik
:08:53. > :08:55.or the Danish side Brondby. That's in the second
:08:56. > :09:00.qualifying round in mid-July. I'll be back later with the weather
:09:01. > :09:06.forecast, but now it's time to cross to my colleague Glenn Campbell
:09:07. > :09:19.for a special EU referendum debate. Thank you. Debating life before our
:09:20. > :09:27.audience here in Glasgow this evening, leading In and Out
:09:28. > :09:35.campaigners. For Remain, Joanna Cherry. The Leave, the former SNP
:09:36. > :09:37.Jim Sellers. And for Remain, the leader of the Scottish Labour Party
:09:38. > :09:46.Mr Dugdale. Mr Dugdale.
:09:47. > :09:52.-- Mrs Dugdale. So our panellists will be taking questions from the
:09:53. > :09:56.audience, which include committed supporters in equal numbers and some
:09:57. > :10:03.undecided voters as well. Let's go to our first question, which comes
:10:04. > :10:10.from Fraser. How large of a shock to the UK economy would a Brexit be?
:10:11. > :10:14.Let me put that first of all to KC. Dale. I think it would be a very
:10:15. > :10:19.significant shock. I think it would be very serious and we would see the
:10:20. > :10:23.results almost immediately as the markets open on Friday. I'm not here
:10:24. > :10:29.to scare you into that prospect. I think it's good to create jobs, to
:10:30. > :10:32.sustain the economy we have, to create opportunities for young
:10:33. > :10:37.people, and there's no question it's been good for workers' rights. We
:10:38. > :10:42.can now make sure we don't compete with our neighbours on the amount of
:10:43. > :10:45.holiday leave, the amount we earn in a day and maternity and paternity
:10:46. > :10:51.rights, and dots all because we have been in the EU and I hope it
:10:52. > :10:55.continues. -- that is all. I don't like the word shock. They may be
:10:56. > :11:01.some short-term uncertainty. I'm broadly with Lord rose, the leader
:11:02. > :11:05.of the Remain campaign, and that is that it would settle down after a
:11:06. > :11:09.period of time, and despite all the scaremongering that's been going on,
:11:10. > :11:12.you look at the markets today, the Pounders broadly where it was when
:11:13. > :11:18.actually the stock market went up. actually the stock market went up.
:11:19. > :11:24.-- the pounds is broadly. I don't think that is the way to look at it
:11:25. > :11:28.anyway. What we are looking at is whether we want to restore the
:11:29. > :11:32.ability to make decisions in our Parliamentary democracy, and I
:11:33. > :11:35.believe in Britain and I believe given the opportunity to control our
:11:36. > :11:42.own destiny, we will prosper in the long term, and that's how we should
:11:43. > :11:43.look at it. The UK Chancellor, George Osborne, has produced
:11:44. > :11:48.look at it. The UK Chancellor, Treasury analysis which he says
:11:49. > :11:54.would cost 43,000 Scottish jobs in two years of a Brexit. He's talked
:11:55. > :12:00.about having to have an emergency Budget to plug ?30 billion of a
:12:01. > :12:05.black hole in UK finances. Do you buy those figures? I think people in
:12:06. > :12:07.Scotland are sick of this campaigning, constantly
:12:08. > :12:11.scaremongering and raising fears, but what is undoubtedly true is that
:12:12. > :12:16.member of the EU has brought very significant benefits to the British
:12:17. > :12:22.and Scottish economy. For example, inward investment. For the --
:12:23. > :12:27.nations and regions, we have had the most investment to the tune of ?16
:12:28. > :12:31.billion per annum. In terms of our exports from Scotland, our exports
:12:32. > :12:32.to the EU are worth 2000 per head for everybody in this country and
:12:33. > :12:39.they support over 3000 jobs. If we for everybody in this country and
:12:40. > :12:43.withdraw... But he is on the same side of the debate as you on this
:12:44. > :12:48.occasion, and when the Chancellor says 43,000 Scottish jobs would go
:12:49. > :12:48.within two years, are you saying he is
:12:49. > :12:54.scaremongering or do you think those figures are inaccurate? What I'm
:12:55. > :13:00.saying is, at the moment we are part of a free market and we have access
:13:01. > :13:04.to 500 million other consumers, and this has brought massive benefit to
:13:05. > :13:08.the British and Scottish economy. If we withdraw from that free market we
:13:09. > :13:13.will no longer have access to that market, and of course it will have
:13:14. > :13:17.an impact on jobs and investment... I'm not prepared to put a figure on
:13:18. > :13:21.it and I'm not able to do so, but I'm saying it is a no-brainer if we
:13:22. > :13:30.withdraw from the free market that it will affect jobs and investment
:13:31. > :13:34.across the United Kingdom. There will be an agreement reached between
:13:35. > :13:39.the European Union and a United Kingdom out of the EU. And I'll tell
:13:40. > :13:48.you why. It is there in the trade figures. The European 27 exporter
:13:49. > :13:51.costs around ?290 billion worth of goods and services a year.
:13:52. > :14:02.-- export to us. We export to them 228 billion a year. So it is in the
:14:03. > :14:07.interests of both sides, because the wager on a particular link trade is
:14:08. > :14:10.only one way. It is a two-way trade and there are jobs tied up with
:14:11. > :14:17.access to that market, and there are lots of jobs tied up in the EU about
:14:18. > :14:24.access to our markets. Plus the fact that if we vote Brexit on Thursday,
:14:25. > :14:28.we do not leave the EU on Friday. First of all, the United Kingdom
:14:29. > :14:39.Government has to write a formal letter to the commission saying, we
:14:40. > :14:43.wish to withdraw. On -- under Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. So
:14:44. > :14:47.we still have two years where we are members of the EU in that market,
:14:48. > :14:51.and if you think of those figures and the millions of jobs on both
:14:52. > :14:57.sides, common sense will in fact prevail. There will be a free trade
:14:58. > :15:04.agreement. All common sense tells you that will be the case. And the
:15:05. > :15:09.shock will not in fact occur. I will come back to the panel but I want to
:15:10. > :15:11.bring in members of our audience. And perhaps bring in the questioner
:15:12. > :15:20.on this festival. What do you think? on this festival. What do you think?
:15:21. > :15:24.-- first of all. I think we need to leave and take back control. I think
:15:25. > :15:28.the EU has proved itself to be a broken down institution at is very
:15:29. > :15:32.core, so I think it's best we leave on our own terms and negotiate those
:15:33. > :15:37.terms with the EU rather than have a disorderly Brexit from the EU at a
:15:38. > :15:41.later stage. And do you think there will be an economic shock and that
:15:42. > :15:45.is something we just have to absorb? Or do you think there is
:15:46. > :15:49.scaremongering going on? I think there will be a short time period of
:15:50. > :15:55.market volatility and turbulence, and once the markets get the idea of
:15:56. > :16:02.the fact we are leaving the EU, they will quickly recover. OK. A
:16:03. > :16:06.gentleman on the other side. How can you be so certain there will be an
:16:07. > :16:12.agreement if we leave the EU? What of other countries rebel against us
:16:13. > :16:16.because we have left? Which countries will rebel? I don't know
:16:17. > :16:19.but there could be countries who rebel against us and you, be sure
:16:20. > :16:25.they will let us have an agreement. You cannot be sure.
:16:26. > :16:31.I'm not saying you would be 100% sure. What I'm saying is if you look
:16:32. > :16:37.at the facts on the ground of trade and the jobs involved in euro coming
:16:38. > :16:42.to us and our jobs going to them, common sense will prevail. It would
:16:43. > :16:46.be a lunacy on their part to put trade barriers up against us,
:16:47. > :16:51.because we would put trade barriers up against them and that serves
:16:52. > :16:56.nobody's purpose. I'm assuming that all the hysteria from Merkel and Co
:16:57. > :17:02.will in fact die down. For example, there is no way the German trade
:17:03. > :17:07.unions, whose members are reliant on selling to you are market are going
:17:08. > :17:12.to allow a European politician to act in a stupid way in reference to
:17:13. > :17:19.a Free Trade Agreement between us and the EU. Now, I can't guarantee
:17:20. > :17:22.00% that the politicians will come to their senses, but the facts on
:17:23. > :17:28.the ground indicate clearly that they will. Joanna Cherry. Thank you.
:17:29. > :17:31.Jim's right in the sense there probably would be an agreement in
:17:32. > :17:35.due course. What matters about the agreement are the terms of
:17:36. > :17:38.agreement. Look what the Norwegian Prime Minister told us last week.
:17:39. > :17:42.She said if the British leave the European Union they won't like it.
:17:43. > :17:49.Because in order to have free trade with the European Union, Norway has
:17:50. > :17:53.to agree to border, passportless border checks in the Schengen area
:17:54. > :17:57.and has to agree to the free movement of people. But it has no
:17:58. > :18:01.say in how those regulations are reached. The Norwegian Prime
:18:02. > :18:04.Minister described her Government as being like a lobbying organisation
:18:05. > :18:11.in Brussels. That's not true, by the way. It is true, Jim. You can go
:18:12. > :18:14.home and Google it. She described it as such, so take her word for it.
:18:15. > :18:18.The difficulty is that we don't know what the terms of the agreement
:18:19. > :18:21.would. Those who want to leave the European Union often cite migration
:18:22. > :18:25.and the free movement of workers as one of the main reasons they want to
:18:26. > :18:30.leave. If you want to be part of a Free Trade Agreement from outwith
:18:31. > :18:34.the EU, you will have to agree to free movement of workers as Norway
:18:35. > :18:38.and Switzerland has had to do. Lord Forsyth is shaking his head at that.
:18:39. > :18:43.There are examples of countries who've a free trade with the EU who
:18:44. > :18:48.don't have free moment of workers. Which countries? Turkey or
:18:49. > :18:51.Liechtenstein. But we are not Liechtenstein or Norway. We are the
:18:52. > :18:57.fifth largest economy in the world. APPLAUSE.. As Jim has pointed out,
:18:58. > :19:02.they sell 62 billion worth of product to us. Anybody who thinks
:19:03. > :19:05.with the German and the for example elections coming up, if we vote to
:19:06. > :19:12.leave on Friday Angela Merkel's office isn't going to be filled with
:19:13. > :19:16.BMW and VW and other manufacturers saying, for goodness sake we sell 1
:19:17. > :19:19.million cars to Britain every year, please make sure this free trade
:19:20. > :19:24.existing agreement is maintained. Maintained. This is simple
:19:25. > :19:28.scaremongering. You don't need to be in the EU in order to sell goods and
:19:29. > :19:33.services to Europe. America does that. Those countries which are not
:19:34. > :19:36.in the EU have been far better at increasing their exports than we
:19:37. > :19:41.have as members. I want to hear from another couple of voices from our
:19:42. > :19:47.audience and then I will come back to Kezo the panel. Our economy is
:19:48. > :19:51.the fifth largest in the world but that relies heavily on trade,
:19:52. > :19:57.particularly with the EU. The IMF has said the value of the pound
:19:58. > :20:02.could fall as much as 10% on Brexit. If the pound were to fell in value,
:20:03. > :20:06.it would help our export efforts enormously. It would made imports
:20:07. > :20:10.more expensive, so it would be easier for our own organisations,
:20:11. > :20:14.our own businesses to thrive and prosper. The point about the single
:20:15. > :20:18.market, the use of the word market is misleading. It is a single
:20:19. > :20:23.regulatory zone. Anyone can sell into the single market. Chinese or
:20:24. > :20:27.the Indians and others do so. But they have to do it according to
:20:28. > :20:34.terms. Tar tiffs will be applied. I want to hear from the audience. The
:20:35. > :20:40.lady on this side. I'm still undecided but this is the nub of
:20:41. > :20:44.where my dilemma lies will. Do the Remainors think this is worth
:20:45. > :20:47.sacrificing their sovereignty for? I think we benefit from sharing a bit
:20:48. > :20:53.of our sovereignty with other nations to have that strong economy,
:20:54. > :20:56.to have workers' rights, to have the opportunities that young people get
:20:57. > :20:59.from being part of Europe. Talking about the economic questions, you
:21:00. > :21:04.are hearing four politicians argue about it. Look at what the business
:21:05. > :21:09.leaders are saying, the Scottish whisky association are saying...
:21:10. > :21:13.(Inaudible). We don't have a microphone. The Of course, the
:21:14. > :21:15.economy is based on the people who generate the wealth. The Scottish
:21:16. > :21:18.whisky association are saying to us generate the wealth. The Scottish
:21:19. > :21:23.and to you it is hugely important to them that Scottish is part of the
:21:24. > :21:26.European Union, because they can trade with 28 nations with one set
:21:27. > :21:32.of regulations around marketing and health and safety and bottle size
:21:33. > :21:35.and the rest of it. It is also an amazing platform for Scottish whisky
:21:36. > :21:40.to get to China and to America that. Platform of being part of Europe is
:21:41. > :21:44.hugely advantageous to trade beyond Europe as well as within Europe
:21:45. > :21:50.itself. I'm inclined to listen to business, who says it is good for
:21:51. > :21:54.the economy. Jim will talk about why it is a bad idea but I don't think
:21:55. > :21:59.we should be afraid if we are stronger and better off overall. A
:22:00. > :22:04.follow-up question, economy related from Adam. Will vote leave finance
:22:05. > :22:09.the fishery and agricultural sectors to the same level as the EU after a
:22:10. > :22:14.Brexit. Jim Sillars? I would imagine so. There is no reason why not.
:22:15. > :22:19.Before we entered the European Union, in my time as a Member of
:22:20. > :22:23.Parliament we had what were called efficiency payment to our farmers.
:22:24. > :22:30.The money will be there to do so. I would doubt very much indeed if any
:22:31. > :22:36.Government of any particular ideology would starve our
:22:37. > :22:45.agricultural sector. By the way, on fishing, the final thing from the
:22:46. > :22:48.SNP point of view, on fishing, the final thing from the SNP point of
:22:49. > :22:53.view, since 19373 -- since 19373 was to get rid of the common fisheries
:22:54. > :22:58.policy. Whether it is conducted from Westminster or Holyrood, that will
:22:59. > :23:01.go down to the benefit of Scottish fishing. Stminster or Holyrood, that
:23:02. > :23:06.will go down to the benefit of Scottish fishing. -- since 1973. Why
:23:07. > :23:11.do you through the NFU in Scotland has come out against a British exit.
:23:12. > :23:14.Arguing that overall benefits of staying in outweigh the advantages
:23:15. > :23:18.that farm businesses would Duwayne from leaving the EU? I don't know
:23:19. > :23:24.why he said that, because I've talked to lots of farmers who are
:23:25. > :23:29.voting to leave, who would prefer the deficiency payment system that
:23:30. > :23:33.we operated previously. People like the NFU say on balance, but there is
:23:34. > :23:39.no figures provided by them that would clinch the art in that way.
:23:40. > :23:41.And by the way, the common fisheries policy undoes the argument that
:23:42. > :23:46.Kezia was making, that you share policy undoes the argument that
:23:47. > :23:52.sovereignty in the EU. You do not share sovereignty in the EU. You
:23:53. > :23:56.transfer sovereignty to the central institutions of the EU. The common
:23:57. > :24:02.fisheries policy is a classic example of that transfer. Farming
:24:03. > :24:04.and fishing, Joanna Cherry. The Common Agricultural Policy has
:24:05. > :24:09.brought significant benefits to Scotland. Vital funding to farmers
:24:10. > :24:13.and landowners to subsidise farming and forestry in difficult and
:24:14. > :24:18.vulnerable areas. It provides significant funding to all sorts of
:24:19. > :24:21.Najaf the rural area, all sorts of community and environmental
:24:22. > :24:25.activities. Why the national farmers union of Scotland have said they
:24:26. > :24:28.don't want to come out of the EU is clear, because they gave evidenced
:24:29. > :24:31.to a Holyrood economy recently. They said 40% of the European Union
:24:32. > :24:35.Budget is spent on the Common said 40% of the European Union
:24:36. > :24:41.Agricultural Policy. Significant subs does come to Scotland and they
:24:42. > :24:45.said nobody has told us what will replace those subsidies. George
:24:46. > :24:49.Eustace, the Minister of State for farming in the UK Government and is
:24:50. > :24:53.campaigning on the Leave side, says that farmers in his view would get
:24:54. > :24:58.as much support or perhaps even more as they get now. That's his view. He
:24:59. > :25:06.hasn't given any detail, which policy it is going to replace. He
:25:07. > :25:12.can say whatever he likes but he has to give detail. Last year in the
:25:13. > :25:16.Scottish independence referendum they produced a white paper with
:25:17. > :25:21.detailed proposals. The Leave campaign has produced nothing of the
:25:22. > :25:25.sort. Lord Forsyth is a director of vote leave. Leave.. It is nothing to
:25:26. > :25:33.do with George Eustace, the moment we vote to leave on Friday, farming
:25:34. > :25:38.and fishing will be the spotlight of the Scottish Parliament. I would
:25:39. > :25:41.like to come back on that. It is a huge transfer of power to Scotland.
:25:42. > :25:45.So the Scottish Parliament can decide what happens to our fishermen
:25:46. > :25:50.and what happens to our farmers. I venture to suggest they'll be better
:25:51. > :25:56.off. I've got a ten pound note here. Who is going to give me ?20 for it?
:25:57. > :26:01.That's the deal in Europe. We pay them ?20 billion and we get 10 back.
:26:02. > :26:04.And we are told how to spend it. Talk to any farmer in Scotland and
:26:05. > :26:09.ask how it's been this year filling in the forms and the disaster of
:26:10. > :26:12.paying the money. We send the money to Europe, who produce complicated
:26:13. > :26:15.systems of grants, and it is sent back to uses in ways they determine.
:26:16. > :26:19.I want the Scottish Parliament to be able to decide these matters and to
:26:20. > :26:23.have a fishing the policy and agricultural policy which is right
:26:24. > :26:27.for Scotland. I want to let Joanna Cherry pick up on that in a moment.
:26:28. > :26:29.But I want to pick up this business of how much money will come to the
:26:30. > :26:34.farmers. The Vote Leave battlebus of how much money will come to the
:26:35. > :26:36.suggests the money we might save if we left in European Union
:26:37. > :26:39.suggests the money we might save if contributions would be more likely
:26:40. > :26:45.directed to the NHS. Well, with it isn't actually... You can't spend it
:26:46. > :26:49.twice. Listen, this is not a general election. This is not about winning
:26:50. > :26:53.or losing, but in whiching the public on the issues. At the end of
:26:54. > :26:58.the day we will get money back. ?10 billion back. How it is spent is a
:26:59. > :27:01.matter for the elected Governments, in Westminster for the Westminster
:27:02. > :27:04.Government and in Scotland with agriculture and fishing and
:27:05. > :27:07.education and other power which is will come back to Scotland, it will
:27:08. > :27:10.be a matter for the First Minister and the Scottish Parliament to
:27:11. > :27:14.decide. On that point, I want to hear from the audience. Let me
:27:15. > :27:19.finish that point. And that is Hewitt should be. At the moment 60%
:27:20. > :27:23.of our laws and regulations are made by unelected commissioners who are
:27:24. > :27:29.accountable to no-one and whom you cannot get rid of. Fisheries and
:27:30. > :27:33.farm have been devolved since 1998 but negotiating with other countries
:27:34. > :27:37.over common fisheries policies and Common Agricultural Policies are not
:27:38. > :27:43.devolved. Those from the preserve of Westminster. Furthermore... It is
:27:44. > :27:52.called the Scottish Government now. Have you read the Scotland Act, Lord
:27:53. > :27:56.Forsyth? Yes, I have. Negotiating with Governments is a devolved
:27:57. > :27:58.matter. Jim talked about making trade agreements with other
:27:59. > :28:04.countries. We have to replace what we have with something else. Here's
:28:05. > :28:08.the other thing. Briefly, please. Lord Forsyth has said Scottish
:28:09. > :28:11.Government will have more power. The economic levers of power remain at
:28:12. > :28:18.Westminster. If the British Government is going to have more
:28:19. > :28:23.money as a result of withdrawing from Europe... You don't accept
:28:24. > :28:27.that? I said if. Who is to say it will give any of that money to the
:28:28. > :28:31.Scottish Government to replace the subsidies we currently get for our
:28:32. > :28:36.fishermen and farmers. APPLAUSE.
:28:37. > :28:47.I think we have a farmer in our audience. Let's come to you. Make it
:28:48. > :28:53.as a point. Well, it's a well-known fact that farmers have been in term
:28:54. > :28:56.of the near on two years. There have been a few campaigns towards the
:28:57. > :29:01.government and there is yet to be any support from UK Government base.
:29:02. > :29:04.So what makes you think that if we exit Europe, they would support
:29:05. > :29:10.farmers? Because they have an opportunity to do so just now. As I
:29:11. > :29:15.understand it, you have yet to make up your mind and decide which way to
:29:16. > :29:21.vote on Thursday? How big a concern is this for you in reaching that
:29:22. > :29:26.decision? Oh, well, it is colossal, really. Because it is not just
:29:27. > :29:30.farmers, is the whole rural economy. What is it you want the government
:29:31. > :29:34.to do? What I'm saying is, we are still waiting on subsidy payments
:29:35. > :29:38.that were due last year. If they can't deliver that, how on earth are
:29:39. > :29:46.they going to deliver a Common Agricultural Policy within the UK?
:29:47. > :29:49.But you have just explain that. If they can't deliver that how
:29:50. > :29:53.wonderful they going to deliver... Our understanding is that it is
:29:54. > :29:58.sitting at the door of the UK Government. So how can they deliver
:29:59. > :30:04.their own policy? Let me bring in a voice from this side of the room.
:30:05. > :30:05.The gentleman with glasses. I must confess, this is the second time
:30:06. > :30:10.I've heard Lord Forsyth bring up confess, this is the second time
:30:11. > :30:14.this phrase "Unelected bureaucrats". Does the term pot, kettle and black
:30:15. > :30:21.spring to mind? APPLAUSE
:30:22. > :30:25.Actually, the great virtue of our system on your point, which is a dig
:30:26. > :30:29.at me because I'm a member of the House of Lords, which is accountable
:30:30. > :30:34.to the House of Commons, the great virtue of our system is that you
:30:35. > :30:40.were able to kick me out in 97 when you didn't agree with my policies.
:30:41. > :30:46.You are still here! I want to hear more from the audience. You say
:30:47. > :30:50.about the Common Agricultural Policy, but it doesn't actually work
:30:51. > :30:55.for Scotland at all, to the point it could actually impact the barrel
:30:56. > :31:05.production for the whisky trade which they talked up so well. It is
:31:06. > :31:10.what your committee says in Hollywood. There's something else
:31:11. > :31:16.Lord Forsyth said and that's the sense that 60% of laws come from
:31:17. > :31:21.Europe, and that's just not true. Only 13% even reference to the EU,
:31:22. > :31:25.let alone enforce laws made in Europe upon us. So it is another one
:31:26. > :31:29.of these scaremongering stories that you accused us of right at the start
:31:30. > :31:36.of your programme. The concerns about farming are very real indeed.
:31:37. > :31:38.Likewise in the fishing industry. This is real and about
:31:39. > :31:46.people'slivelihoods and is very serious indeed. The Scottish
:31:47. > :31:50.fishermen 's Federation says they are neutral but they don't want to
:31:51. > :31:54.lose out on the aspect of free trade because the current -- but the
:31:55. > :31:58.current law doesn't work for them. It is really difficult but maybe
:31:59. > :32:03.there aren't easy answers here. So I would say to you think about this.
:32:04. > :32:07.Be you genuinely believe that a Tory government wants to give more
:32:08. > :32:12.subsidy and more public money to you as a farmer? Do you believe they
:32:13. > :32:14.genuinely want to give more money to our NHS? The Tories believe in
:32:15. > :32:17.smaller state intervention and our NHS? The Tories believe in
:32:18. > :32:24.smaller government. They are not out to help you get from one week to the
:32:25. > :32:28.next or one season to the next. No doubt we will hear more from Lord
:32:29. > :32:33.Forsyth as the debate goes on. This question comes from Sarah. I was
:32:34. > :32:40.wondering, how would remaining in the EU or leaving effect or control
:32:41. > :32:46.the higher levels of immigration we are experiencing across the UK at
:32:47. > :32:52.the moment? I agree with Jeremy Corbyn, who said on the Andrew Marr
:32:53. > :32:56.Programme on Sunday that while we are in the EU, it will be impossible
:32:57. > :33:01.for us to control the levels of immigration. And I think that is
:33:02. > :33:04.very important. I think we do need to have migrants coming to our
:33:05. > :33:09.country but we need to be able to control the numbers so we are able
:33:10. > :33:12.to match the services for the schools, the whole service, housing,
:33:13. > :33:15.congestion on our roads and all the other things we have to live with in
:33:16. > :33:19.congestion on our roads and all the our country. -- health service.
:33:20. > :33:24.There are many countries not in the EU. In fact, most countries in the
:33:25. > :33:29.world are not in the EU. But almost all countries I can think of think
:33:30. > :33:32.it is important to be able to control their borders, who comes in
:33:33. > :33:36.and who we can throw out. The fact that because of the EU court, we
:33:37. > :33:40.find ourselves with serious criminals here that we cannot expel,
:33:41. > :33:50.that is a good example of how we have lost control of our ability to
:33:51. > :33:52.run our own affairs, and by leaving the EU, we can have an immigration
:33:53. > :33:55.policy which meets our needs, brings the skills we need to Scotland and
:33:56. > :33:58.the UK as a whole and also an immigration policy which is fair to
:33:59. > :34:03.those who want to come here from non-EU countries. People from India,
:34:04. > :34:08.Pakistan, South Africa, Australia, and so on, so we welcome people who
:34:09. > :34:11.can make a real contribution to our economy and not turn people a side
:34:12. > :34:16.who could make a huge contribution to the health service and other
:34:17. > :34:21.services because we are stuck with our inability to control numbers
:34:22. > :34:33.coming in from the EU. And in terms of net migration, EU citizens to the
:34:34. > :34:37.UK, around 180,000 came to the UK. Obviously a smaller proportion to
:34:38. > :34:42.Scotland. And yesterday, this interview Lord Forsyth referred to
:34:43. > :34:46.on the Andrew Marr programme with your UK party leader, Jeremy Corbyn
:34:47. > :34:50.was asked, is there any kind of upper limit to immigration coming to
:34:51. > :34:55.this country? He said, I don't think you can have one while you have a
:34:56. > :34:58.free movement of labour. First of all, I think we should recognise the
:34:59. > :35:03.people choosing to live and make their lives in Scotland is a
:35:04. > :35:07.positively good thing. It has added a tremendous amount to an society to
:35:08. > :35:12.have those ethnicities and we should recognise that. Those figures you
:35:13. > :35:19.highlighted are right. 180,000. It is a very small percentage of our
:35:20. > :35:23.overall population. If you listen to the Leave campaign, and they
:35:24. > :35:26.unveiled that horrific poster, you would think every immigrant coming
:35:27. > :35:30.to this country gets a house, and they take everything from us. They
:35:31. > :35:35.are being blamed and being told they are the fault of everything wrong
:35:36. > :35:39.with our society... Just let me get this point out. The question I asked
:35:40. > :35:45.you was about what Jeremy Corbyn said on the programme yesterday. Do
:35:46. > :35:49.you agree there can be no limit? He is clear to say that as an aspect of
:35:50. > :35:53.our current situation in the EU. That's right. But we also have to
:35:54. > :35:57.recognise that immigration is much broader than people coming from the
:35:58. > :36:03.EU. It is much more complex than that. And there is no solution to
:36:04. > :36:07.immigration, however you feel about it, on the ballot paper on Thursday.
:36:08. > :36:12.We are being asked about what kind of country and society we want to
:36:13. > :36:17.be. Do we want to be one that is represented by Nigel Farage, who
:36:18. > :36:26.labels immigrants as taking from us? Just 5% of EU immigrants claim
:36:27. > :36:30.benefits. You are more likely to be treated by an EU immigrant in the
:36:31. > :36:36.NHS than you are to be sat next to one. If you think there is a problem
:36:37. > :36:40.in our country with access to GPs, not enough council houses to young
:36:41. > :36:44.people, problems with school placements, blame the Tories, who
:36:45. > :36:47.spent the last five years cutting public services. Don't blame
:36:48. > :36:58.immigrants, because all they've done is invest in us. Seeing as Kezia
:36:59. > :37:03.Dugdale mentioned the Tories, to start with, that poster she referred
:37:04. > :37:09.to with the column of people seeking refuge in the EU with a banner on it
:37:10. > :37:15."Breaking point", what did you think when you saw that? I thought it was
:37:16. > :37:20.a particularly stupid poster, because it was confusing two things.
:37:21. > :37:27.Refugees and migrants. I would like to see us do more on refugees, and
:37:28. > :37:31.that means being able to control the numbers coming into our country,
:37:32. > :37:36.which we can do if we leave the EU. There is the most appalling
:37:37. > :37:40.persecution going on in Syria of Christians and I've been trying to
:37:41. > :37:43.persuade the Government to declare this as genocide, which would mean
:37:44. > :37:49.we could intervene directly to help those people. So I thought it was a
:37:50. > :37:53.silly poster. But, quite frankly, if this campaign is reduced to argue
:37:54. > :37:57.about posters and Nigel Farage, when what is at stake is our democratic
:37:58. > :38:02.future, then I think something has gone badly wrong. Let me bring in
:38:03. > :38:12.the audience before I come back to our panellists. Back row. There was
:38:13. > :38:16.a lot being said about immigration from people coming into the country
:38:17. > :38:22.but immigration actually works both ways. There are 2.2 million Brits
:38:23. > :38:26.who are working, living and retired abroad, and I would like to know
:38:27. > :38:32.what is going to happen to them. If we come out of the EU, do they have
:38:33. > :38:37.to come back? You know, what kind of future is therefore all these
:38:38. > :38:44.people? OK. Pick up on that and your answer to the broader question.
:38:45. > :38:49.There are about 40,000 Norwegians living in Spain, I think. I don't
:38:50. > :38:53.think they will be greatly affected one way or the other, to tell the
:38:54. > :38:59.truth. On immigration, let me make it perfectly plain that on the Leave
:39:00. > :39:11.side, people have different reasons for wanting to leave. We are not all
:39:12. > :39:18.Nigel Farages, let me tell you! And I think if the Leave side loses on
:39:19. > :39:21.Thursday, he will be primarily responsible for the disgraceful way
:39:22. > :39:29.he has conducted the argument on immigration. We need a rational,
:39:30. > :39:35.sensible, adult discussion. Not so much a debate but a discussion about
:39:36. > :39:40.immigration. Of course, numbers of people coming into our country
:39:41. > :39:45.create a problem. The problem isn't culture or stealing someone's job.
:39:46. > :39:49.It's being able to plan. When I was on a hospital board many years ago,
:39:50. > :39:54.we needed a registrar general's figures in order that we could
:39:55. > :40:02.allocate to different areas of the medical services. At one time, we
:40:03. > :40:08.had children being born at a fair rate, so obviously we got those
:40:09. > :40:12.figures that meant we could give more money to the maternity services
:40:13. > :40:18.in Glasgow, which, combined with a birth rate, was a problem, because
:40:19. > :40:23.this was before the slump took place. So we've got to be able to
:40:24. > :40:28.say there are three categories of migrant. There are the asylum
:40:29. > :40:33.seekers, whom we should welcome all the time without dispute. The other
:40:34. > :40:39.two categories are short-term economic migrants, which I have been
:40:40. > :40:44.one of them, incidentally. When I couldn't get work in Scotland, I
:40:45. > :40:49.went to Saudi Arabia. This is quite important because we've had an awful
:40:50. > :40:55.lot of stuff about people... But we are also pressed the time! The other
:40:56. > :40:59.section of people who want to come and live here. In Scotland could do
:41:00. > :41:04.with many more people from all over the world coming to live here
:41:05. > :41:08.because our population was declining till we got the immigration
:41:09. > :41:12.principally from eastern Europe, and it is now rising. A rising
:41:13. > :41:17.population is good for us all. More prosperous and you have a bigger
:41:18. > :41:25.home market. Let's have an adult, sensible discussion. OK, 3.3% of
:41:26. > :41:28.those in Scotland at the moment are EU nationals. Further 2.1% from
:41:29. > :41:35.outside the EU. That's the EU nationals. Further 2.1% from
:41:36. > :41:40.proportion. There is absolutely no reason why free movement within the
:41:41. > :41:44.EU should prevent us doing our fair share to take in refugees fleeing
:41:45. > :41:48.from war and troubled areas in the middle east. And there's absolutely
:41:49. > :41:56.no reason why free movement, people within you, should prevent us having
:41:57. > :42:04.a sensible immigration policy for people out with the EU. -- people
:42:05. > :42:08.within the EU. We have people wanting to take part in the Scottish
:42:09. > :42:11.economy being sent home to Australia. Only 3% of the Scottish
:42:12. > :42:18.population currently comes from the EU and only 5% in the UK comes from
:42:19. > :42:22.across the EU, and various studies over the last couple of years have
:42:23. > :42:26.shown migrants from the EU make a net contribution to the British
:42:27. > :42:30.economy, so that is that they are paying more in by way of taxes than
:42:31. > :42:33.they are taking out by way of benefits. So I think we need to
:42:34. > :42:40.challenge the myth because that is what is creating -- challenge the
:42:41. > :42:45.myth that what is creating pressure on our services is migrants from the
:42:46. > :42:48.EU. It's not. What is creating pressure is the failure of this
:42:49. > :42:51.Conservative government to invest properly in the services,
:42:52. > :43:00.particularly the NHS, and affordable housing. OK... I need to come back
:43:01. > :43:07.on this. We are not in charge of the amount of money that we spend on the
:43:08. > :43:11.NHS. Yes, you are! It is dependent on the buyer formula. Do you not
:43:12. > :43:15.blame the Scottish Government for the economic failures of the Tory
:43:16. > :43:17.government? Why should people in Scotland have to pay more than
:43:18. > :43:22.government? Why should people in people in England to have basic
:43:23. > :43:29.decent public services? Is that your party policy? We are running out of
:43:30. > :43:30.time. Let be hear from the lady on this side and then the gentleman
:43:31. > :43:40.here. I was appalled the other day
:43:41. > :43:43.Michael Gove suggested that if we leave the EU Scotland will be able
:43:44. > :43:49.to sort out its own immigration issues. Talking about families like
:43:50. > :43:56.the Brains from outside the EU. Appalled, why? Because it is
:43:57. > :43:59.disingenuous. On the basis of what we've experienced post referendum I
:44:00. > :44:06.wouldn't believe a word they say. APPLAUSE. Thank you for that. Joanna
:44:07. > :44:10.I agree there's a skills gap in Scotland but with the EU we have no
:44:11. > :44:15.control over what skill the workforce comes in. Surely it makes
:44:16. > :44:21.sense to have a system where you prioritise the skills gap you keep
:44:22. > :44:27.mentioning. You can have both. You can't control it. We can talk all
:44:28. > :44:33.night about this topic but we need to move on about another. Thank you
:44:34. > :44:38.for your contributions. Our next question is from Jamie McEwan.
:44:39. > :44:46.Wouldn't it be better to be an independent Scotland outwith the EU,
:44:47. > :44:53.or part of the UK within the UK? An independent Scotland within the EU.
:44:54. > :44:57.Other options are available. It depends what happens in the
:44:58. > :45:02.referendum on Thursday. But if there's a Brexit and Scotland votes
:45:03. > :45:07.to stay in, what happens, Kezia Dugdale? I don't think we should
:45:08. > :45:11.have to pick between two unions. I want to be part of the European
:45:12. > :45:15.Union and within the European Union. If we are in a situation on Friday
:45:16. > :45:20.morning where we have voted as a United Kingdom to leave the European
:45:21. > :45:26.Union, I think the arguments for staying part of the UK become even
:45:27. > :45:31.stronger. We will set ourselves a task of leaving our second biggest
:45:32. > :45:37.trading partner. So much we discussed tonight is linked to. Why
:45:38. > :45:40.would we want to leave our first biggest trading partner, our nearest
:45:41. > :45:44.neighbours in England and Wales and Northern Ireland. The Labour Party's
:45:45. > :45:48.position is we oppose a second referendum on independence over the
:45:49. > :45:53.lifetime of the next five years, because we all respect democracy. We
:45:54. > :46:00.were told it was a once in a lifetime, once in a generation
:46:01. > :46:03.activity. In an interview in February you contemplated that in
:46:04. > :46:07.these circumstances it wasn't inconceivable you might back an
:46:08. > :46:09.independent Scotland. I think everyone would be thoughtful and
:46:10. > :46:14.reflective about that. You've changed your mind? I thought we were
:46:15. > :46:17.in a position in Scotland where we could have a more nuanced
:46:18. > :46:21.conversation about the constitution. It turns out in Scotland we are
:46:22. > :46:25.divided between yes and no. The clearly black and white. Having
:46:26. > :46:28.thought about it I believe strongly, as I did throughout the independence
:46:29. > :46:32.referendum, that Scotland's future best lies within the United Kingdom.
:46:33. > :46:35.I think especially if we were to leave the European Union, and I
:46:36. > :46:39.sincerely hope we don't, that relationship becomes even more
:46:40. > :46:42.important. I'll be even more drawn to campaigning to remain within that
:46:43. > :46:48.United Kingdom if we leave the European Union. Joanna Cherry. Kezia
:46:49. > :46:51.and I are on the same side tonight, which is pleasant. We were on
:46:52. > :46:59.different sides during the independence referendum. Those of
:47:00. > :47:04.you who took any interest in the referendum, we were told by Better
:47:05. > :47:07.Together, the only way to guarantee Scotland's membership of the
:47:08. > :47:10.European Union was to vote no and stay in the United Kingdom. In the
:47:11. > :47:15.event this Thursday the United Kingdom votes to leave the European
:47:16. > :47:18.Union and Scotland votes to remain in the European Union, the
:47:19. > :47:22.circumstances in which people voted to remain in the UK in 2014 will
:47:23. > :47:26.have changed materially and significantly. If our manifesto for
:47:27. > :47:31.the Holyrood election, the SNP said that we felt the Scottish Parliament
:47:32. > :47:35.should be entitled to hold another referendum if there was material and
:47:36. > :47:39.significant change in the circumstances that pertained in
:47:40. > :47:44.2014. Do you think that's what happened? Alex Salmond said it would
:47:45. > :47:48.happen within two years, what do you think? I think there would be a
:47:49. > :47:53.groundswell of support for a second referendum if Scotland is taken out
:47:54. > :47:57.of the European Union against her will. I base that on what people are
:47:58. > :48:01.saying to me on the doorsteps. People are concerned they were told
:48:02. > :48:06.in 2014 the only way to remain in the European Union was to vote no.
:48:07. > :48:09.Now they face being taken out of the European Union against their will. I
:48:10. > :48:12.want to see Scotland as an independent member state in the
:48:13. > :48:15.European Union. But so long as Scotland remains in the United
:48:16. > :48:19.Kingdom, I want to see the United Kingdom remain in the European
:48:20. > :48:22.Union. I think that's in the interests of the whole of the UK
:48:23. > :48:26.economy. That's why the SNP has been trying to run a positive campaign
:48:27. > :48:35.for the whole of the UK to remain in the European Union.
:48:36. > :48:41.APPLAUSE. Jim Sillars? That's pure kidology. I will tell you why. I've
:48:42. > :48:45.read the manifesto and I've also read these words in the Sunday
:48:46. > :48:50.Herald. This is from Nicola. I am clear that if Scotland does face
:48:51. > :48:56.being taken out of Europe against our will, the option set out in our
:48:57. > :49:03.consideration. It is a slippery word consideration. It is a slippery word
:49:04. > :49:10.- consideration, by the way. The SNP does not have a mandate to hold a
:49:11. > :49:19.second independence referendum. In the same position in 2016 as Alex
:49:20. > :49:24.Salmond was in 2007. A minority Government, with this difference.
:49:25. > :49:30.Alex at least asked from a mandate. In 2016, Nicola had the opportunity
:49:31. > :49:35.to add words there, saying, in the event of Brexit turning out this
:49:36. > :49:42.way, I ask you for a mandate in order to hold a second referendum.
:49:43. > :49:47.She doesn't have the mandate. And the power to, the legal power to
:49:48. > :49:52.grant a referendum is at Westminster. The only way you can
:49:53. > :49:57.lever that out of Westminster is having a majority combined with a
:49:58. > :50:03.mandate. You then have the moral authority to say, our people want
:50:04. > :50:12.it. The next time that the SNP might get a majority and might ask for a
:50:13. > :50:16.mandate is 2021. OK, so it wouldn't happen according to Jim Sillars...
:50:17. > :50:21.For them to pretend to the yes voters that if Brexit turns out the
:50:22. > :50:27.way Joanna described, we are on our way to a referendum. A promise that
:50:28. > :50:32.she cannot fulfil. It is not kidology. I have the greatest
:50:33. > :50:36.respect for Jim, but he is wrong on this issue. Tonight doingle the SNP
:50:37. > :50:42.manifesto and look at page 24 and you will see the words I've set out
:50:43. > :50:47.for you. We may not have a majority Government but the SNP received
:50:48. > :50:51.46.5% of the vote. That's the highest mandate that any Government
:50:52. > :50:58.ALL TALK AT ONCE ALL TALK AT ONCE
:50:59. > :51:03.. . You have already had a say on this one. I'm don't have one. I'm
:51:04. > :51:07.confused about the SNP's position. If the argument is, and it looks
:51:08. > :51:11.like the polls suggests if England votes to leave but Scotland votes to
:51:12. > :51:14.remain, we should have another referendum, the simple message to
:51:15. > :51:18.anyone who wants to keep the union is that you should vote to leave in
:51:19. > :51:21.Scotland. Otherwise it will be used as ammunition to make the case for
:51:22. > :51:27.another referendum. And all the polls show that the majority of
:51:28. > :51:32.people in Scotland do not want to have another referendum. By the way,
:51:33. > :51:36.if on Friday people vote to remain in the European Union, which I'm
:51:37. > :51:41.opposed to, I will accept the result, because I'm a democrat. I
:51:42. > :51:45.think it is a disgrace that the SNP continue to damage Scotland's
:51:46. > :51:49.interests by continuing to drag out this idea that we could leave the
:51:50. > :51:52.United Kingdom, and if we were to leave the United Kingdom with the
:51:53. > :51:56.oil price where it is, we would be bust. By the way, the EU wouldn't
:51:57. > :52:00.have you, because you wouldn't be able to meet the debt criteria. I
:52:01. > :52:07.want to not this nonsense on the head that we would be bust. Figures
:52:08. > :52:12.show if Scotland wore an independent country, they would have a deficit
:52:13. > :52:22.of ?7 billion. Ladies and gentlemen, the United Kingdom has a deficit of
:52:23. > :52:26.?76 billion. It is an utterly disingenuous argument. Most
:52:27. > :52:29.countries in Europe have a deficit. Scotland would have a small deficit.
:52:30. > :52:39.The UK has a deficit of ?76 billion. Think object that. It is nonsense.
:52:40. > :52:42.The gentleman on the front row. Your entire campaign for the the Scottish
:52:43. > :52:46.independence referendum was - everything will stay the same.
:52:47. > :52:51.That's why you wanted the EU as an exit result. But if we are out of
:52:52. > :52:55.the EU, you've lost one of ve lost one of your status quo options -
:52:56. > :53:01.keep the Queen, keep the pound, keep the EU. You will now be asking the
:53:02. > :53:06.Scottish people to leave the UK and join the EU if we were out. I don't
:53:07. > :53:12.think people were asked if they want to join this thing called the EU
:53:13. > :53:15.they would say yes. You are assuming that everyone person would be a
:53:16. > :53:20.citizen of the European Union. The European Union has expanded greatly
:53:21. > :53:21.in recent years, with many small newly independent nations joining
:53:22. > :53:26.it. It is simply ridiculous to think newly independent nations joining
:53:27. > :53:32.that an independent Scotland would not be welcomed in the European
:53:33. > :53:35.Union. These are issues of our time. Would you have the pound? We would
:53:36. > :53:40.have to look at the situation pertaining at the time. You can't
:53:41. > :53:43.expect me to make a decision about that here and now. We would need to
:53:44. > :53:48.look at the economic conditions at the time. We probably wouldn't want
:53:49. > :53:57.to be tied to a pound if it nosedived after a Brexit. Jim
:53:58. > :54:00.Sillars? In 2014, in a letter to the Scottish Parliament from the
:54:01. > :54:04.Vice-President of the European Union, they told us the the day
:54:05. > :54:08.you're independent, you are out. In other words, get stuffed! They were
:54:09. > :54:13.on the side of Better Together. There is no reason to believe they
:54:14. > :54:21.wouldn't tell us to get stuffed next time if the UK remains inside the
:54:22. > :54:24.European Union. Distinguished legal opinion says Scotland would have a
:54:25. > :54:28.right to remain in the United Kingdom. Thank you very much indeed
:54:29. > :54:33.to the four on our panel and to our audience here. That's all we've got
:54:34. > :54:37.time for. Voting is on Thursday. APPLAUSE.
:54:38. > :54:41.Well, our political editor Brian Taylor joins me now.
:54:42. > :54:51.Let's start at the end of that, because there was claim and
:54:52. > :54:54.counterclaim about what the EU referendum will mean for Scottish
:54:55. > :54:59.independence. You've got some clarity on that. The entire thing is
:55:00. > :55:03.the uncertainty of a referendum on Thursday. I think what the Scottish
:55:04. > :55:07.Government might seek to do. I do not think they would regard an
:55:08. > :55:10.independence referendum as absolutely a guaranteed prospect in
:55:11. > :55:14.the event that Britain leaves. But I think they would try to set the
:55:15. > :55:19.trail in motion. I think for example they might seek what's known as a
:55:20. > :55:24.Section 30 agreement, as was done prior to the referendum in 2014. To
:55:25. > :55:31.have that on the table in the event they would call a referendum. Nicola
:55:32. > :55:38.Sturgeon would argue circumstances have materially changed. Overall, of
:55:39. > :55:42.the 45 minutes, what's your analysis of the arguments. I'm struck by the
:55:43. > :55:47.way the economy and immigration comes to the fore, and neither side,
:55:48. > :55:52.and I don't blame them for this, this is the nature of politics and
:55:53. > :55:58.the absence of forecasting for the future. Each side has to say trust
:55:59. > :56:02.me with regard to the prospectus on the economy. People have to made up
:56:03. > :56:09.their mind which of the two they trust. Time and time again it became
:56:10. > :56:12.party political as opposed to remaining leave. Kezia Dugdale
:56:13. > :56:16.saying don't blame the European Union, blame the Tories. Lord
:56:17. > :56:20.Forsyth trying to rebut that. Jim Sillars saying if Leave losed, he
:56:21. > :56:25.said that would be the responsibility, the blame, the
:56:26. > :56:28.fault, for Nigel Farage for what Jim Sillars believes is getting it wrong
:56:29. > :56:29.on immigration. Weather now, and as it's the summer
:56:30. > :56:32.solstice Kirsteen MacDonald is on beautiful Nairn
:56:33. > :56:41.beach this evening. Thank you Jackie. Good evening to
:56:42. > :56:45.you from just east of inverness in. We are marking the summer solstice,
:56:46. > :56:55.the longest day of the year. This year it is falling on June 20th
:56:56. > :56:57.because of of it being a leap year. Indeed, we are expecting around 17
:56:58. > :57:03.hours of daylight across Scotland. Certainly here on Nairn beach, a lot
:57:04. > :57:07.of sunshine. A pleasant day here. A marked improvement on the type of
:57:08. > :57:10.weather we have seen in much of the north-east of Scotland over the last
:57:11. > :57:15.few weeks, with a nagging northeasterly wind. As far as this
:57:16. > :57:19.evening is concerned, across the country a fine evening, with spells
:57:20. > :57:23.of brightness and sunshine. Any showers tending to fade away
:57:24. > :57:27.tonight. We have clear spells for eastern areas. In the west, there'll
:57:28. > :57:31.be a fair amount of cloud around. We'll have some showery outbreaks of
:57:32. > :57:36.rain feeding into the north-west. On a fairly keen south to southwesterly
:57:37. > :57:41.breeze. Not really a cold night for most of us. Temperatures will told
:57:42. > :57:43.up at 10-12 Celsius. Atures will told up at 10-12 Celsius. Tomorrow -
:57:44. > :57:47.much of the east and the south, another fine day to um can, with
:57:48. > :57:50.spells of brightness and sunshine developing. More cloud across the
:57:51. > :57:54.west and further outbreaks of rain developing. More cloud across the
:57:55. > :57:57.in the north-west. Taking a closer look tomorrow afternoon. Across much
:57:58. > :58:02.of the south and through central areas, it is looking fine and dry.
:58:03. > :58:07.Brightness and sunshine. For much of the west, the north-west especially,
:58:08. > :58:11.outbreaks of rain, perhaps something drier across the Western Isles at
:58:12. > :58:15.times. For the Northern Isles a peppering of showers. A fine day for
:58:16. > :58:18.the north-east, with spells of brightness and sunshine. Highs of 20
:58:19. > :58:22.Celsius. Not much change as we intheed the evening, with the best
:58:23. > :58:27.of the sunshine in the east and the south. As we head into Wednesday,
:58:28. > :58:30.again really quite a decent day of weather to come across Scotland. A
:58:31. > :58:35.fair amount of brightness and sunshine around. Perhaps a
:58:36. > :58:39.scattering of showers at times. Temperatures wide lid into the mid
:58:40. > :58:42.to high teens. Peaking at 20 Celsius. Ide lid into the mid to
:58:43. > :58:45.high teens. Peaking at 20 Celsius. Thursday - again another quite
:58:46. > :58:48.decent day of weather to come. Especially in the east. Jack
:58:49. > :58:52.written, that's the forecast from Nairn beach. Plenty of sunshine
:58:53. > :58:56.around. I might go and build myself a sandcastle. Back to you. You do
:58:57. > :58:58.that, Kirsty. Now a reminder of
:58:59. > :59:07.tonight's main news. Rail passengers across Scotland face
:59:08. > :59:12.the first in a series of strikes tomorrow after talks at ACAS between
:59:13. > :59:17.the RMT union and ScotRail broke down.
:59:18. > :59:22.I'll be back with the headlines at 8.00pm and the late
:59:23. > :59:32.Until then, from everyone on the team, have a very good evening.