05/06/2017

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:00:10. > :00:10.Good evening on Election Reporting Scotland.

:00:11. > :00:12.We are into the last week of campaigning,

:00:13. > :00:15.as Nicola Sturgeon and Tim Farron answer questions from

:00:16. > :00:49.And the row over policing following the London attacks.

:00:50. > :00:51.The final week of the election and, from nowhere, it

:00:52. > :00:55.Following the weekend terror attack in London,

:00:56. > :00:58.arguments about security dominated today on the campaign trail.

:00:59. > :01:00.The subject also featured in a special election edition

:01:01. > :01:02.of Question Time from Edinburgh tonight, featuring SNP

:01:03. > :01:09.leader Nicola Surgeon and the Lib Dem's Tim Farron.

:01:10. > :01:11.Our political reporter Andrew Kerr watched the debate

:01:12. > :01:20.and it started, Andrew, with the issue of terrorism and security?

:01:21. > :01:30.That is correct. It is the issue everyone is wanting to talk about

:01:31. > :01:38.today. It dominated the campaign today. The Labour Party leader said

:01:39. > :01:48.that Theresa May should resign over police cuts. And at the leaders

:01:49. > :01:53.special, Tim Farron and so the question when it came up regarding

:01:54. > :02:01.the extra powers the police should maybe be given. He had a different

:02:02. > :02:08.response. What they want more than anything is the resources to catch

:02:09. > :02:14.people. But what do the terrorists want others to do? They want us to

:02:15. > :02:20.turn in on herself and divide ourselves. They want us to give up

:02:21. > :02:22.our freedoms and we will not do the otherwise the bill have one.

:02:23. > :02:24.And Nicola Surgeon again faced questions from an audience

:02:25. > :02:39.The special took place in Edinburgh. Security was uppermost in everyone's

:02:40. > :02:46.moaned but she did not want a knee jerk response that undermine the

:02:47. > :02:52.liberties and freedoms we currently have. On an independence referendum,

:02:53. > :02:58.she was criticised for pushing it by some people. And on her track

:02:59. > :03:05.record, very critical questions from the audience, particularly around

:03:06. > :03:11.the question of education. When we come to contest the next Scottish

:03:12. > :03:18.parliament questions, if I am asking people to vote for me again, I

:03:19. > :03:23.expect to be judged on that. It is legitimate to be asked that

:03:24. > :03:30.question. But this week, we are not choosing a Scottish Government, we

:03:31. > :03:33.are choosing MPs to go to Westminster, and that will determine

:03:34. > :03:35.whether the funding for schools and education goes up or down.

:03:36. > :03:37.And one other development tonight, more confusion for Labour,

:03:38. > :03:43.this time involving the party in Wales?

:03:44. > :03:51.The Welsh Labour Party did not appear to be singing from the same

:03:52. > :03:56.song sheet. It is all about the Barnett formula, the formulae used

:03:57. > :04:03.to distribute money to Scotland, Ireland and whales. They want to

:04:04. > :04:08.move to evenly spaced formula and the Labour leader in whales says

:04:09. > :04:18.that there should be a different formula. We put that to the Scottish

:04:19. > :04:22.Labour Party. They said that our manifesto costings are based on the

:04:23. > :04:31.Barnett formula and we will not scrap it. The Labour Party singing

:04:32. > :04:38.from a different song sheet in different parts of the United

:04:39. > :04:44.Kingdom. Last week, Jeremy Corbyn was seeing very different things

:04:45. > :04:47.about a second independence referendum than what the leadership

:04:48. > :04:52.of the Scottish Labour Party were seeing. More too, that I am sure.

:04:53. > :04:54.More from the election campaign coming up, but first,

:04:55. > :04:58.the rest of the day's news from Sally McNair.

:04:59. > :05:01.People in the island communities of Barra and Vatersay came together

:05:02. > :05:04.today for the funeral of teenager Eilidh MacLeod, one of the victims

:05:05. > :05:08.Friends and family heard how Eilidh packed "a lot of life"

:05:09. > :05:16.into her 14 years. Cameron Buttle reports.

:05:17. > :05:23.A small honour guard walked her to the hearse that

:05:24. > :05:25.took her home, for one last night, her family.

:05:26. > :05:27.The McLeod family live in the shadow of the Church

:05:28. > :05:32.The family gently carried up the hill.

:05:33. > :05:34.The piper played a well-known Gaelic song, a song that

:05:35. > :05:45.praises the beauty of a fair-haired Barra girl.

:05:46. > :05:52.Outside, mourners perched wherever they could.

:05:53. > :05:54.Added extra ferries and flights to bring people here.

:05:55. > :05:56.Police estimate that around 1,000 came to pay their respects.

:05:57. > :06:02.Inside, Eilidh's great-uncle paid tribute.

:06:03. > :06:04.In contrast to the hate that took her life,

:06:05. > :06:06.Eilidh's life was, and now stands as,

:06:07. > :06:08.a testament forever to the world of love, of innocence,

:06:09. > :06:22.goodness, generosity, kindness and faith.

:06:23. > :06:25.The priest who led the service said it was important to

:06:26. > :06:27.remember that Eilidh was a happy girl who

:06:28. > :06:29.had 14 happy years, and the last few were the happiest

:06:30. > :06:37.Eilidh was a bubbly, fun-loving girl, a talented girl.

:06:38. > :06:50.When I met her, I sensed a positive, loving, happy girl.

:06:51. > :06:53.People were there to remember the tragic part of the decade that

:06:54. > :06:56.were cut away from a life, many felt, and so that the family could

:06:57. > :06:59.see that fellow feeling that everybody had, not just in the

:07:00. > :07:11.island, but in other islands and the mainland.

:07:12. > :07:14.As the cortege wound round the island, Eilidh was taken over

:07:15. > :07:17.the causeway to Vatersay, where she moved to back years ago.

:07:18. > :07:26.It is perhaps best ended with the words her family.

:07:27. > :07:28.A Fatal Accident Inquiry into the death of a 12-year-old girl

:07:29. > :07:31.who died when a school wall collapsed, has begun in Edinburgh.

:07:32. > :07:33.Keane Wallis-Bennett suffered fatal crushing injuries in April 2014,

:07:34. > :07:38.when a wall in the PE changing room at Liberton High fell on top of her.

:07:39. > :07:40.The judge in the fraud trial of the former owner

:07:41. > :07:42.of Rangers Football Club, Craig Whyte, has urged the jury

:07:43. > :07:44.to "keep cool heads" and take a long, hard look

:07:45. > :07:49.Mr Whyte is accused of acquiring Rangers by fraud in May 2011.

:07:50. > :07:56.He denies the charge and a second charge under the Companies Act.

:07:57. > :07:59.Now back to Stephen. Thanks, Sally.

:08:00. > :08:02.Rolling coverage of the London terror attacks led to last-minute

:08:03. > :08:07.Sunday Politics Scotland was supposed to be showing the

:08:08. > :08:09.last of its leader interviews with Willie Rennie from

:08:10. > :08:12.Instead, we are screening the interview which Gordon

:08:13. > :08:31.Jeremy Corbyn has called for the Prime Minister to resign. He says

:08:32. > :08:38.she has presided over cuts in policing. What do you make of that?

:08:39. > :08:44.I think it is a rather odd point in the middle of an election campaign

:08:45. > :08:49.deciding who will be the new Prime Minister. But the central point is

:08:50. > :08:54.fear. She was Home Secretary for seven years and know she is trying

:08:55. > :09:00.to find solutions to a problem she has presided over. The cuts in

:09:01. > :09:06.policing, specifically recently, have been a particular problem,

:09:07. > :09:16.especially when the terror threat has increased. But we also have

:09:17. > :09:20.other issues. We are also pursuing mass surveillance. It is costly and

:09:21. > :09:25.ineffective and does not target based on evidence and that is why I

:09:26. > :09:31.think there is a valid case that Jeremy Corbyn has made, although

:09:32. > :09:37.rather odd that he has needed during a general election campaign. She

:09:38. > :09:45.should go? I would expect the voters to make that decision. You mentioned

:09:46. > :09:51.mass surveillance. Even the speech that was made yesterday Theresa May

:09:52. > :09:55.by, are you preparing to support some sort of crackdown which could

:09:56. > :10:01.be announced over the next couple of days, perhaps even before the

:10:02. > :10:07.election. Or are you more concerned about civil liberties? We do need to

:10:08. > :10:15.have a bit of caution at this time. People are very angry and frustrated

:10:16. > :10:18.and fearful. We need to make sure we protect the cherished Civil

:10:19. > :10:23.Liberties we all want to keep. Seeing enough is enough is tough,

:10:24. > :10:28.but what does it actually mean? A lot of people up and down the

:10:29. > :10:34.country will think, she is right, not enough has been done. If it

:10:35. > :10:38.means bringing in new rules about detaining suspects for longer by the

:10:39. > :10:46.police than they can do at the moment. We need to be that on

:10:47. > :10:52.evidence. But people will say, you can now have evidence. Look at what

:10:53. > :10:58.happened in Manchester. What you need to have is the solid evidence

:10:59. > :11:08.that it actually works. This would not last naturally build long-term

:11:09. > :11:16.solutions. And it could cost something like ?1 billion. I would

:11:17. > :11:21.rather ?1 billion was spent on keeping us safe rather than having a

:11:22. > :11:27.fast data stored on the Internet. I do not think that is necessarily the

:11:28. > :11:33.best way to go about it. We have to think about national security, but

:11:34. > :11:38.also about civil liberties. The general election, the Liberal

:11:39. > :11:43.Democrats are going to do very well. Across the United Kingdom, your

:11:44. > :11:48.claim was you wanted to become the main opposition Party. The manifesto

:11:49. > :11:55.starts off by assuming, perhaps wrongly, that Theresa May was going

:11:56. > :12:01.to do much better than she is doing and that the Labour Party would beat

:12:02. > :12:08.rubbish as an opposition. But it is just not happening at the moment.

:12:09. > :12:13.You are down at 8% in the opinion polls. Just look at Brexit. What

:12:14. > :12:24.type of opposition did Jeremy Corbyn provided. He voted with Theresa May

:12:25. > :12:32.an Nigel Farage. We will see what happens on Thursday. They accept

:12:33. > :12:40.politicians think that is only one opinion poll that matters, but to

:12:41. > :12:44.get the Liberal Democrats vote wrong between 8-10%, the opinion polls

:12:45. > :12:50.would have to be wrong than any opinion poll ever in world history.

:12:51. > :12:55.I guarantee that no matter how many Liberal Democrat MPs are elected,

:12:56. > :13:02.they will provide strong opposition. What I am suggesting is that it just

:13:03. > :13:07.is not working. I doubt if I have ever read a Party manifesto which

:13:08. > :13:11.gets so drawn in its opening paragraph that we are an election is

:13:12. > :13:16.going to go. You assumed the Conservative Party were going to win

:13:17. > :13:21.and that Jeremy Corbyn would be terrible. Neither of these things

:13:22. > :13:26.have happened. I can tell you it in the key seats in Scotland, we will

:13:27. > :13:34.do exceptionally well. You said you would be the main opposition to

:13:35. > :13:38.Theresa May. We will be a robust and effective opposition in the

:13:39. > :13:42.parliament. We will have more MPs. We will provide the challenge on

:13:43. > :13:50.Brexit, investment in public services and having available

:13:51. > :13:55.liberal approach to government. I would like is to be a force in the

:13:56. > :14:00.House of Commons. I would like that to be as big as possible, but that

:14:01. > :14:04.is up to the voting public. You have lost your unique selling point in

:14:05. > :14:10.this election. If you do not want the Conservative Party to get back,

:14:11. > :14:17.people will vote Labour. If your main issue is that you want to stay

:14:18. > :14:22.in Europe, it is an awful lot more likely that the Scottish National

:14:23. > :14:25.Party could have another independence referendum and keep the

:14:26. > :14:30.country in Europe than the Liberal Democrats winning the election and

:14:31. > :14:36.having another European referendum. We speak for the majority of people

:14:37. > :14:41.in this country who oppose a second referendum, who want to have the

:14:42. > :14:48.second Sea on Brexit, the opportunity to reject a bad deal,

:14:49. > :14:52.but investing in public services. But the original evidence that

:14:53. > :14:57.people want a second referendum on Europe. No matter what we think,

:14:58. > :15:02.when we see the final deal, the British people should have the final

:15:03. > :15:07.say. It should not be left to just who is in government. We need to

:15:08. > :15:14.British people to have the opportunity to reject a deal. I

:15:15. > :15:19.believe we will grow. I have been in many key seats when it is a simple

:15:20. > :15:22.choice between the Scottish National Party and the Liberal Democrats.

:15:23. > :15:28.Whether people agree with is not, they do not want a divisive second

:15:29. > :15:36.independence referendum. But we cannot have a referendum but we want

:15:37. > :15:47.another European Union referendum? We did have the white paper. All we

:15:48. > :15:57.had were slogans. Can they reduce something. This is Mr Carmichael,

:15:58. > :16:02.the Secretary of State for Scotland. He says of the white Paper, people

:16:03. > :16:06.will draw their own conclusions that the Scottish Pullman have sought to

:16:07. > :16:10.ignore the uncertainties over independence. We are expected to

:16:11. > :16:17.believe everything will be perfect after we leave the United Kingdom.

:16:18. > :16:24.We are told there will be all right on the night. You said about the

:16:25. > :16:31.independence White Paper that you said about the Brexit one. You said

:16:32. > :16:36.there was no detail. We rejected that three years ago. I think we

:16:37. > :16:42.have the opportunity to reject the detail when it is forthcoming on

:16:43. > :16:47.Brexit. We need to have the final say. We have no detail. The

:16:48. > :16:54.government did not expect to lose, so there was no detailed plans. The

:16:55. > :16:57.problem you have is that you are meant to be Liberal Democrats. The

:16:58. > :17:02.Scottish National Party have the mandate in the manifesto, the

:17:03. > :17:09.Scottish Parliament has voted to have another referendum. Your link

:17:10. > :17:14.is even harder than the Conservative Party. You see your MPs would vote

:17:15. > :17:21.against any section 30 order to have another referendum. That is

:17:22. > :17:28.anti-democratic. How can you claim the Scottish National Party have no

:17:29. > :17:31.manifesto? How can be anti-democratic for the Liberal

:17:32. > :17:39.Democrats to fall through the promise the manifesto. They won the

:17:40. > :17:46.election, unlike you. They did not win. They lost their majority. If

:17:47. > :17:51.that happened in the House of Commons, even Tony Blair did not

:17:52. > :17:56.have a majority in that sense. The Green Party said you would have to

:17:57. > :18:01.have 1 million signatures on a petition before you could have

:18:02. > :18:07.another referendum. I think that is why it is quite clear. Liberal

:18:08. > :18:15.Democrat should follow the manifesto commitment and reject any talk of

:18:16. > :18:19.the second independence referendum. The talk about Brexit, but any

:18:20. > :18:28.excuse coming along would be an excuse for the Scottish National

:18:29. > :18:42.Party. If you had something in your manifesto, you claim you the mandate

:18:43. > :18:51.to influence things. You could regret that down the road. That is

:18:52. > :18:55.the mandate that we were given in all the seats we won in the

:18:56. > :19:01.election. We give a commitment. That is what we are going to do. We will

:19:02. > :19:06.not go back on a warrant. It has been a depressing tough couple of

:19:07. > :19:14.days for everyone. We know that if Tim Farron wins this election,

:19:15. > :19:19.everyone can have a split to celebrate! When you win the next

:19:20. > :19:24.election, will you legalise cannabis in Scotland? We do not have the

:19:25. > :19:28.specific ports on cannabis. I will use my position to argue that an

:19:29. > :19:30.approach to deal with the drugs problem in this country, which is

:19:31. > :19:35.feeling at the moment. Now, Theresa May has been

:19:36. > :19:37.campaigning in Scotland today, with security issues central

:19:38. > :19:39.to the campaign. The Prime Minister has been

:19:40. > :19:41.defending her record on policing, after Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn

:19:42. > :20:02.called on her to resign I am articulating what is a deep

:20:03. > :20:06.anger over 20,000 police officers losing their jobs, firefighters

:20:07. > :20:10.losing their jobs, ambulance crews being unable to cope under pressure.

:20:11. > :20:16.We need to look at what she did this Home Secretary.

:20:17. > :20:22.We predicting overall police budgets in England and Wales and also

:20:23. > :20:27.ensuring that the police and security services have the powers

:20:28. > :20:31.they need to be able to deal with the terrorists. So, we have enhanced

:20:32. > :20:35.the powers available to them. Jeremy Corbin, by contrast, has boasted

:20:36. > :20:39.that he has opposed every piece of anti-terror legislation since he has

:20:40. > :20:40.been in Parliament. The Prime Minister speaking in Edinburgh

:20:41. > :20:41.today. Our nightly panel of

:20:42. > :20:42.pundits join me now. Tonight, Angela Haggerty,

:20:43. > :20:44.editor of the Common Space website, security expert

:20:45. > :20:46.Professor Peter Jackson from Glasgow University

:20:47. > :20:47.and Michael Blackley, the Political Editor

:20:48. > :21:04.of the Scottish Daily Mail. The terror attacks in three months,

:21:05. > :21:07.how big an issue is this likely to be for reporters on Thursday? I

:21:08. > :21:11.think it will be a bigger issue than it has ever been before. I do not

:21:12. > :21:14.remember an election where there has been this level of terror, even

:21:15. > :21:20.during the height of the troubles in Northern Ireland. This close to an

:21:21. > :21:24.election, this kind of intensity of terrorist atrocities, it is kind of

:21:25. > :21:29.unprecedented. I think, both parties are urging people to reflect on

:21:30. > :21:35.which party, both major parties in the UK, which party will keep you

:21:36. > :21:38.safe. This is going to be playing on people's minds when they cast their

:21:39. > :21:43.vote. Let's just look at the parties. March 2016, the SNP

:21:44. > :21:45.abstained from a vote on the so-called snoopers Charter, which

:21:46. > :21:48.Theresa May said at the time would give our law enforcement and

:21:49. > :21:53.intelligence agencies the powers they need to keep us safe. Is it

:21:54. > :21:58.time for the SNP to rethink their position on legislation like this?

:21:59. > :22:03.They SNP abstained, but there were also a lot of camping goods, civil

:22:04. > :22:06.liberties groups, warning that this snoopers charter was going to be a

:22:07. > :22:10.massive clamp-down on civil liberties. -- a lot of campaign

:22:11. > :22:15.groups. Joanna Cherry did quite a lot of work on this at Westminster

:22:16. > :22:19.and warned, actually, about the authoritarianism of that bill and

:22:20. > :22:23.some of the potential risks. I think the SNP has made it quite clear,

:22:24. > :22:27.Joanna Cherry made it quite clear that there were some things about

:22:28. > :22:31.the bill that were useful but the whole thing should not necessarily

:22:32. > :22:34.be thrown out as an idea, there were certainly things within it that

:22:35. > :22:38.would need to be looked out. The SNP's position should not change on

:22:39. > :22:42.that. The voters realise that when it comes to security in this

:22:43. > :22:46.election, they are probably going to be looking at who is your next Prime

:22:47. > :22:49.Minister, which party will be in government? They are looking to them

:22:50. > :22:52.for the answers and security, so this has become a massive election

:22:53. > :23:00.issue suddenly right at the very last minute, but I do not think

:23:01. > :23:03.necessarily that people are looking towards the SNP's stands on security

:23:04. > :23:06.as being the big motivating factor for voters in Scotland. The Prime

:23:07. > :23:09.Minister is difficult ground with those on the home security. As Home

:23:10. > :23:13.Secretary, she presided over cuts to policing of almost 20,000. The only

:23:14. > :23:16.place in Britain where police numbers have been maintained is

:23:17. > :23:20.right here in Scotland under the SNP. She did this quite a lot of

:23:21. > :23:25.significant questions today from members of the media about police

:23:26. > :23:29.number cuts, and of course it is an important issue. However, even the

:23:30. > :23:36.Chief Constable of Police Scotland says that it is old-fashioned to

:23:37. > :23:39.judge policing just by police numbers. It looks like Police

:23:40. > :23:42.Scotland will no longer have a commitment to maintain police

:23:43. > :23:46.numbers. Nicola Sturgeon seems to accept now that it is about how you

:23:47. > :23:50.deal with the threat, not necessarily about bobbies on the

:23:51. > :23:55.beat any more. I do not think you can judge the previous Home

:23:56. > :24:00.Secretary's performance just by police numbers alone. Peter Jackson,

:24:01. > :24:03.a distributor Kerry for all the parties. Jeremy Corbyn has voted

:24:04. > :24:08.against anti-terror legislation on 17 different occasions down the

:24:09. > :24:15.years. Diane Abbott could not even work out how much extra policing was

:24:16. > :24:21.going to cost. Labour has some questions to answer, no doubt. They

:24:22. > :24:25.are playing up the cuts, 19,000 whatever, cuts in police numbers as

:24:26. > :24:29.a way of saying that Theresa May has serious questions to ask. In order

:24:30. > :24:34.for that action to -- argument to gain traction, it is quite important

:24:35. > :24:37.that they show that community policing does gather intelligence is

:24:38. > :24:40.vaulted counter-terrorism. That is an important argument, but it does

:24:41. > :24:44.come at the last minute and the public will not be able to judge

:24:45. > :24:46.very clearly on whether or not, you know, the Conservative government is

:24:47. > :24:51.right that it is the resources you give and powers you give to security

:24:52. > :24:56.and intelligence and police, or in fact, you know, bobbies on the beat.

:24:57. > :24:59.Is that important as a source of community intelligence gathering, to

:25:00. > :25:03.get a feel for communities, gain the trust of communities and to be

:25:04. > :25:08.someone to which communities can turn if they have concerns? Karim

:25:09. > :25:12.Angela, final question Time debate tonight from Edinburgh, Tim Farron

:25:13. > :25:18.and Nicola Sturgeon, two days to go, any major developments for you? It

:25:19. > :25:23.was like a game off 2/2, the debate. Tim Farron find it very difficult to

:25:24. > :25:27.justify one referendum on Brexit and opposing one on Scottish

:25:28. > :25:32.independence. When Nicola Sturgeon came out, she faced opposition from

:25:33. > :25:37.the audience about the idea of a second referendum. It did highlight

:25:38. > :25:40.how blurred the lines have become between devolved and Westminster

:25:41. > :25:42.issues. I think that is going to be an issue for us going forward.

:25:43. > :25:43.Especially with a live audience! Tomorrow on the campaign trail,

:25:44. > :25:46.it is all about oil and gas, Join us again tomorrow night

:25:47. > :27:02.for all that and more. It will stay with you for a good

:27:03. > :27:07.part of the next 24 hours. It is going to stay cloudy and wet pretty

:27:08. > :27:09.much across the board. A lot of the drive towards the west coast and

:27:10. > :27:13.more like showers for the Hebrides. Quite windy on the west and

:27:14. > :27:17.south-west coast from a northerly direction. That rain straight into

:27:18. > :27:22.part of the North of England, down towards East Anglia, to the southern

:27:23. > :27:25.flank. Really high winds down to Manchester down to the Midlands.

:27:26. > :27:31.Deal for such times. Across Wales under five, showers rather than

:27:32. > :27:36.rain. Breezy here and certainly, a windy day as well as a wet one.

:27:37. > :27:41.Quite a cool feeling day. 13, 14 Celsius. It will not feel like that,

:27:42. > :27:45.especially with the cloud. The rain and the wind. It slowly moves away

:27:46. > :27:50.and, come Wednesday, it is a brighter day for many of us. Still

:27:51. > :27:52.quite cloudy and dam across the far north and north-east, but,

:27:53. > :27:58.elsewhere, dry and bread. Some sunshine and the wind lighter. There

:27:59. > :28:01.'s dry, but there is more rain in the forecast. As we have those the

:28:02. > :28:02.afternoon, in It was an industry

:28:03. > :28:05.bursting at the seams. We exported thread

:28:06. > :28:08.to the whole world.