:00:00. > :00:00.When a tragedy then becomes a scandal there are always major
:00:00. > :00:10.Today the parents at the centre of the baby ashes scandal are
:00:11. > :00:33.It?s hard to imagine how anything could make losing a baby worse.
:00:34. > :00:36.Bereaved parents who were then denied
:00:37. > :00:40.their baby's ashes say that loss made their suffering much worse.
:00:41. > :00:43.As the government today pledge to investigate every individual case,
:00:44. > :00:48.we hear from the woman who first uncovered the scandal.
:00:49. > :00:53.The grey man, former Prime Minister John Major in Edinburgh to warn
:00:54. > :00:56.Scotland of possible irrelevance if we vote for independence.
:00:57. > :00:58.And our referendum correspondent, Laura Bicker,
:00:59. > :01:03.We follow her as she swims the Atlantic and speaks to people
:01:04. > :01:14.It's been a long road for the hundreds of families
:01:15. > :01:18.Today they have what they always hoped for - a national investigation
:01:19. > :01:25.into what happened to their children's remains.
:01:26. > :01:33.This story begins in 2012 when it emerged that families whose babies
:01:34. > :01:37.had been committed here at Mortonhall were told that there were
:01:38. > :01:45.no Ashes but in fact, ashes had been recovered and disposed of. Quickly,
:01:46. > :01:53.story spread. Concerns them were raised at Aberdeen. This became a
:01:54. > :01:58.national scandal. Dame Elish Angiolini held an enquiry into what
:01:59. > :02:08.happened in Edinburgh. The report said should be a clear definition of
:02:09. > :02:14.what is by ashes. The legislation is needed to ensure that babies under
:02:15. > :02:19.24 weeks are treated properly. Cremation forms should properly give
:02:20. > :02:22.parents a clear choice. The government has accepted all 67
:02:23. > :02:28.recommendations but it became clear today that the investigation is not
:02:29. > :02:34.over. The investigation team will look at Scotland wide, with a focus
:02:35. > :02:38.on Aberdeen. Some parents will never know what happened to their children
:02:39. > :02:43.but I hope that those parents will recognise that we will do all that
:02:44. > :02:48.we can to get those answers for them. I hope that all parents will
:02:49. > :02:58.recognise the important legacy of the last 18 months, that this will
:02:59. > :03:02.never happen again. What started with one case in Edinburgh has
:03:03. > :03:03.become a national scandal but many families are still waiting for
:03:04. > :03:07.answers. I?m joined this evening by the
:03:08. > :03:23.lawyer who represents over 200 Today's announcement is a positive
:03:24. > :03:28.step forward and the families that I represent are happy with the
:03:29. > :03:34.outcome. You had been calling for a public enquiry as that was the only
:03:35. > :03:37.way to have enough power to drag the information out of local authorities
:03:38. > :03:50.who have been reluctant. That is absolutely correct. Until now, I
:03:51. > :03:54.have been seeing that the public enquiry was the only way to go but
:03:55. > :04:00.we have to think about what it is that families are looking for. They
:04:01. > :04:05.want to ensure that every fact that possibly it does come out. They want
:04:06. > :04:09.to ensure that the stories are told that no stone is left unturned. We
:04:10. > :04:13.were promised today that is what will come out of the national
:04:14. > :04:19.investigation team to be cheered by Dame Elish Angiolini. She did a very
:04:20. > :04:26.thorough job in Edinburgh. We welcome it and we will work with it.
:04:27. > :04:33.We trust that will be the outcome. The dialogue that has been going on
:04:34. > :04:40.with the Scottish Government, a very open dialogue, we have responded
:04:41. > :04:44.very positively today. For a lot of families, they will never be any
:04:45. > :04:47.answers to what happened to the children's remains no matter how
:04:48. > :04:52.hard Dame Elish Angiolini looks at it. That would appear to be the
:04:53. > :04:59.case. Each and every family will have to face that as that may arise.
:05:00. > :05:05.What we do know from today is that the individual circumstances will be
:05:06. > :05:12.fully, thoroughly and forensically investigated. Nobody has been held
:05:13. > :05:16.to account yet. We have not seen anybody punished. We have not seen
:05:17. > :05:22.anybody prosecuted. What we did see with the report that Dame Elish
:05:23. > :05:27.Angiolini report -- issued in relation to Mortonhall is that she
:05:28. > :05:32.pulled no punches. She did not hesitate in criticising people. That
:05:33. > :05:38.is what the families are looking for now on the Scottish wide basis.
:05:39. > :05:43.Thank you for coming in to talk to us tonight.
:05:44. > :05:45.The baby ashes story started when one bereaved Edinburgh mother
:05:46. > :05:48.asked questions about what had happened to her daughters remains
:05:49. > :05:51.Dorothy Maitland sparked the investigation that led directly
:05:52. > :05:55.Earlier today I met her in Edinburgh and began by asking her how she
:05:56. > :05:58.a council official told her that, contrary to everything she had been
:05:59. > :06:06.told, her daughter Kaelen's ashes were buried at Mortonhall.
:06:07. > :06:11.I was absolutely gobsmacked for him to tell me that our ashes were
:06:12. > :06:17.interred in the garden of remembrance after 26 years of
:06:18. > :06:22.believing that the was no Ashes. For the best part of two years, this is
:06:23. > :06:27.taking over your life since you have made the discovery about what
:06:28. > :06:34.happened to Kaelen. What has it been like for your family? It has been
:06:35. > :06:38.difficult. Kaelen was a twin. There was also another brother and sister
:06:39. > :06:48.who had to see the offer with all of the media interest as well as give
:06:49. > :06:52.even for the sister. They did not know what would come out about the
:06:53. > :06:58.Ashes. It has had quite an effect as a family but we have all supported
:06:59. > :07:06.each other. We have been very strong through it. It has been difficult
:07:07. > :07:12.for resolve. -- difficult for all of us. We now have to move on from it.
:07:13. > :07:18.You have spoken to families who have made the same discovery as you, what
:07:19. > :07:23.impact did it have? It is taken as all back to square one. It is quite
:07:24. > :07:29.unbelievable the grief that it is brought back for all abuzz. It has
:07:30. > :07:32.been a difficult period. Did you ever see yourself as a national
:07:33. > :07:39.campaigner who would lead a campaign like this? Absolutely not. I did not
:07:40. > :07:44.believe for one minute after having that conversation that this would
:07:45. > :07:50.open such a can of worms. A national enquiry has been ordered now on the
:07:51. > :07:53.basis of your personal discovery. Is that gratifying that people are
:07:54. > :08:01.taking it seriously or is it frightening that such a huge thing
:08:02. > :08:05.has grown? At the start of it, it was quite frightening when you
:08:06. > :08:10.realised how big this is becoming. At the end of the day, it gives me
:08:11. > :08:16.comfort to know that this will not happen again. That parents will not
:08:17. > :08:22.have to go through what myself and other parents have had to go
:08:23. > :08:28.through. I find that comforting. For parents like yourself, where nothing
:08:29. > :08:40.can be done, what is the outcome you looking for? We feel that we want to
:08:41. > :08:45.move on and try to heal. It has been a very difficult couple of years but
:08:46. > :08:50.I think it has been worth it and that Dame Elish Angiolini
:08:51. > :08:54.divisibility honest report. That is what we asked for, the truth. I
:08:55. > :09:01.think we got the truth. Legislation will change. -- a very honest
:09:02. > :09:13.report. Nobody has been held account for this. Would it be disappointing
:09:14. > :09:18.if nobody was punished? For many families it would be disappointing.
:09:19. > :09:24.For me, I'm just satisfied with the fact that things are going to
:09:25. > :09:27.change. I'm pleased about that. There is a lot of families who
:09:28. > :09:35.discovered that similar things happen to them and they couldn't
:09:36. > :09:50.kick the babies remains but they were denied that opportunity, the
:09:51. > :09:51.possibly need never have known this at the scandal had not opened up. It
:09:52. > :09:52.put them through a grieving process, that maybe it would be
:09:53. > :09:53.better ignored? Some people think it should not have been spoken about
:09:54. > :09:56.but that is very old-fashioned and very to do. The majority of parents
:09:57. > :10:01.that I have been involved with, as much as it has been very upsetting
:10:02. > :10:05.for them, they are glad that they know the truth. Do you sometimes
:10:06. > :10:11.wish you had never found out what happened to your daughter? They were
:10:12. > :10:20.times during the 19 pains that I felt, what have I done? -- during
:10:21. > :10:25.the 19 months. I think it is a legacy that made daughter was only
:10:26. > :10:32.here for nine days but she has left a huge legacy.
:10:33. > :10:34.This lunchtime the parly hacks that haunt
:10:35. > :10:38.the corridors of Holyrood sat down to a speech by the grey man, former
:10:39. > :10:46.The political editor of the Scottish Daily Mail, Alan Roden, was there.
:10:47. > :10:54.It was pretty strong stuff. Scotland will be irrelevant if they voted for
:10:55. > :10:59.independence. Lack of the queue to join the European union. How did
:11:00. > :11:05.that go down with journalists? He was a man who spoke his mind and it
:11:06. > :11:09.was fascinating to listen to him. What will dominate the newspapers is
:11:10. > :11:17.the taming of the referendum comments. He said that this year was
:11:18. > :11:25.chosen in 2014 because it coincides with the 700th anniversary of
:11:26. > :11:34.Bannockburn which will be celebrated next week. He said it is an attempt
:11:35. > :11:42.to capitalise on anti-English sentiment in Scotland. That is his
:11:43. > :11:46.words and not mine. He was having to walk a tricky line about in hands
:11:47. > :11:47.powers for demolition because he was famously against devolution, he
:11:48. > :11:49.called a teenage madness when he was Prime Minister. He now has
:11:50. > :11:50.words and not mine. He was having to walk a to say that the Tory party
:11:51. > :11:54.are in favour of devolved powers, how did you square that logic?
:11:55. > :11:59.Today, he described the Scotland act that created the parliament as one
:12:00. > :12:06.of the worst pieces of legislation for the last 30 years. He did not
:12:07. > :12:13.quite support -- quite explain how he made that journey. It was a
:12:14. > :12:17.question for another time. He was adamant that there will be for
:12:18. > :12:19.another time. He was adamant that there will be whenever English
:12:20. > :12:22.Tories come north of the border, the Yes campaign see it gathers more
:12:23. > :12:28.support for them than it does for the Better Together campaign. The
:12:29. > :12:36.journalists came out quite well today.
:12:37. > :12:39.We like to set our reporters a bit of a challenge on Scotland
:12:40. > :12:41.2014 so when we heard our Referendum Correspondent Laura
:12:42. > :12:43.Bicker was into Triathlon we sent her off to cycle, run
:12:44. > :12:49.Tonight we focus on the swim and her journey on Lewis as she
:12:50. > :13:04.looks at the impact independence could have on our waters.
:13:05. > :13:08.If you are going to talk about managing Scottish waters, you might
:13:09. > :13:22.as well dive right in. The shifting sands beneath the
:13:23. > :13:32.harbour a hidden treasure, valuable fishing grounds. Here is a balance
:13:33. > :13:36.to be struck over detecting these waters and earning a living from
:13:37. > :13:38.them. The team I am swimming worth now every twist and turn of the
:13:39. > :13:43.current, but when it comes to the referendum... I could do with more
:13:44. > :13:53.clarity. About what is what. Myself, I do not feel that I know much about
:13:54. > :13:59.what is going on. We are one of the last places in the UK and in
:14:00. > :14:06.Scotland. We need to look after those wild places. With the wet suit
:14:07. > :14:12.off and in dry clothes, I in Stornoway where the fishing fleet is
:14:13. > :14:19.geared towards catching prawns, a growing trend in Scotland. This is a
:14:20. > :14:21.new vessel in today, just purchased and registered to fish. Half of this
:14:22. > :14:31.pain will be spent in English waters. After the referendum, if
:14:32. > :14:40.they went for the yes vote, I think it would be... Why do you go into
:14:41. > :14:44.English waters quit at certain times of the year, it is better for us to
:14:45. > :14:52.fish in different areas to maximise our days at sea -- why do you go
:14:53. > :14:57.into English waters? The EU places limits on the amount fishermen can
:14:58. > :15:03.catch. All to protect stocks. They are also told how many days a year
:15:04. > :15:08.they can head out to sea. Donald believes independence will bring
:15:09. > :15:12.change and would put Scotland in a stronger position to negotiate. It
:15:13. > :15:18.would make things better and easier for fishermen. The legislation in
:15:19. > :15:25.place frustrates you. We are not looking to do harm. We just enjoy
:15:26. > :15:32.going out and the hunting instinct. Nothing better than getting a good
:15:33. > :15:38.catch. Makes you feel good. The next generation looking for a catch come
:15:39. > :15:45.here to learn their trade. Some hope to work on bigger boats. A bigger
:15:46. > :15:49.challenge with bigger rural wards. Donald is 15 and he misses out on a
:15:50. > :15:53.vote in the referendum by four days. He is back from a trip to the Faroe
:15:54. > :16:00.Islands where he had to throw away his catch to keep to a quota. Quite
:16:01. > :16:04.annoying when you have big fish coming over the rail and you have to
:16:05. > :16:17.throw them back again. They are dead when they come over so they do not
:16:18. > :16:24.survive it. Round the back and up. You pull it tight. You are saying I
:16:25. > :16:28.am not very good at making a net! Others know the challenges they
:16:29. > :16:33.face, but deciding who should be in charge of negotiating a better deal
:16:34. > :16:37.is difficult. What would you like to see done about it? I would like
:16:38. > :16:43.Scotland to have their own borders. The small boats would have access
:16:44. > :16:47.because just now it is only the trawlers and that which can land
:16:48. > :16:52.mackerel and herring. That is a different league to the little
:16:53. > :17:06.boats. Thousands of pounds for one time. -- one time.
:17:07. > :17:14.What is clear is that both sides of this debate want change. What they
:17:15. > :17:18.cannot agree on is if independents will turn the tide for both fish and
:17:19. > :17:21.fleet. The hardy
:17:22. > :17:23.Laura Bicker there. And follow her triathlon adventure with the second
:17:24. > :17:25.instalment, cycling in Harris on Thursday. But
:17:26. > :17:27.in the meantime, in our Edinburgh studios, we have the Lib Dem
:17:28. > :17:30.Shetland MSP Tavish Stock. And the North East Scotland SNP MSP
:17:31. > :17:36.Christian Allard who worked in the Scottish fishing industry for many
:17:37. > :17:48.years before joining Parliament. Which of the fishermen was right?
:17:49. > :17:54.Stay in the UK to protect fishing rights and another thought an
:17:55. > :18:00.independent Scotland would negotiate better fishing rights in the EU. I
:18:01. > :18:04.would like to congratulate the BBC for the fantastic piece from Laura.
:18:05. > :18:11.It is encouraging to see young fishermen ready to go out to see
:18:12. > :18:19.Billy McReddie C. We are going to see an end to the discards -- going
:18:20. > :18:22.out to sea. There is a great future for the fishing industry. To a
:18:23. > :18:28.certain extent, I can hear the two sides of the argument. Who do you
:18:29. > :18:33.trust best to look after Scottish waters? The people in Edinburgh or
:18:34. > :18:38.the people in London? The last 40 years, Westminster has not been good
:18:39. > :18:44.enough for us and not good enough for the fishing industry. The
:18:45. > :18:49.Westminster government 40 years ago said about the Scottish vitamin,
:18:50. > :18:56.they said they were expendable -- the Scottish fishermen. There is no
:18:57. > :19:02.change. If we want change and there is only one way, vote yes. Tavish
:19:03. > :19:10.Scott says it is about who you trust. -- Tavish Scott, Christian
:19:11. > :19:16.Allard says it is about who you trust. It is also about the
:19:17. > :19:20.difference between the UK Government and the Scottish Government and
:19:21. > :19:25.since the Nationalists have been in power since 2007, you cannot put
:19:26. > :19:29.April on between the statements they have made at the fisheries Council
:19:30. > :19:38.outcome in December between them and the UK Government -- put a prawn.
:19:39. > :19:42.When I read the press releases by the Scottish comedy and UK
:19:43. > :19:45.Government, they say the same thing. They take credit for the
:19:46. > :19:50.negotiations. These arguments that the UK Government do not do what
:19:51. > :19:54.Scottish fishermen want would not be recognised in many places and they
:19:55. > :20:00.are certainly not recognised in Lowick. The idea everything is bad
:20:01. > :20:05.in London and nothing is good about any negotiation misses the point.
:20:06. > :20:09.The problem is the Common Fisheries Policy and the keyword is common.
:20:10. > :20:13.What Europe tries to do is impose a policy which is the same across the
:20:14. > :20:18.entire EU. The one thing we might agree on is that it does not work
:20:19. > :20:22.and what we need instead is a much more regional policy and one which
:20:23. > :20:31.helps our fishermen in Scottish waters. As your young fishermen
:20:32. > :20:36.recognise, our fishermen fish in foreign waters. That will be eight
:20:37. > :20:42.difficult negotiation. -- a difficult negotiation. The UK has
:20:43. > :20:47.more votes than an independent Scotland could ever hope to have. We
:20:48. > :20:50.have the same amount of vote if not more because just now when the
:20:51. > :20:58.Westminster government disagrees with the Scottish Government, we get
:20:59. > :21:09.less vote because we have not got both. That will not change. Let me
:21:10. > :21:18.put that to Tavish Scott. It is not true. The UK has more votes than a
:21:19. > :21:24.smaller country. After all, the UK Government line when it comes to the
:21:25. > :21:27.fisheries negotiation has to be agreed with Scottish fishermen,
:21:28. > :21:29.whilst fishermen and Northern Ireland fishermen. That is a
:21:30. > :21:36.position the Scottish Government says works. Why else would be press
:21:37. > :21:40.releases that the Scottish fisheries minister puts out since 2007 say the
:21:41. > :21:46.same as the UK Government fisheries minister? The argument is based on
:21:47. > :21:50.assertion and bluff and bluster rather than facts which means that
:21:51. > :21:54.Scotland works hard within the UK to achieve the best deal for fishermen.
:21:55. > :22:00.It is not by any means always the deal we want but it is the best deal
:22:01. > :22:03.we want given the Common Fisheries Policy. Thank you very much.
:22:04. > :22:06.Now for a look at some of the most read stories
:22:07. > :22:18.Al Jazeera has reported Foreign Secretary William Hague plans to
:22:19. > :22:21.reopen the British Embassy in Tehran saying it is an important step
:22:22. > :22:25.forward in British relations with Iran. The Telegraph online is
:22:26. > :22:34.reporting the Chinese premier has said he wants to see a united UK. He
:22:35. > :22:38.added China would respect the choice Scotland makes. BBC online has
:22:39. > :22:42.revealed the UK Government says intelligence service GCHQ can
:22:43. > :22:43.legally snoop on British citizens using Facebook and Google without a
:22:44. > :22:50.warrant. Joining me for a look
:22:51. > :22:53.at the biggest online news stories today is the screenwriter
:22:54. > :23:03.Sergio Casci And back again, Alan Thank you both. The news that a lot
:23:04. > :23:08.of the papers are leading on tonight is the Chinese premier saying a
:23:09. > :23:15.United Kingdom is better united. He was to beside David Cameron as he
:23:16. > :23:18.said it. Does it make much difference, Alan Roden, when someone
:23:19. > :23:24.like the Chinese Prime Minister tells us we are better united? It is
:23:25. > :23:28.not a game changer but it is interesting. China is a country that
:23:29. > :23:33.Alex Salmond has been courting for many years. He has been over there
:23:34. > :23:40.several times. His ministers have as well. Alex Salmond declined to meet
:23:41. > :23:46.the dull alarm at recently to try to appease the Chinese -- Dalai llama.
:23:47. > :23:52.The Chinese government said they will respect the choice of the
:23:53. > :23:57.people of Scotland. Is Alex Salmond smarting a bit? It is no surprise.
:23:58. > :24:02.He has issues of his own to deal with in China with Tibet. It is also
:24:03. > :24:07.not a very good idea for the Better Together campaign to make to much of
:24:08. > :24:15.this. The Scots do not like being told what to do even by such the
:24:16. > :24:18.champion of democracy. A leader any House of Lords was on The Daily
:24:19. > :24:26.Politics as afternoon and she had interesting thoughts about Alex
:24:27. > :24:32.Salmond. I think the Scots are Lee led by a madman. Absolutely crazy
:24:33. > :24:41.what they are trying to do -- the Scots are led by. I hope their
:24:42. > :24:49.leader goes down, down, down. Can you get away with calling an elected
:24:50. > :24:56.leader of Scotland Bay man mad -- Scotland chilly the lead at Scotland
:24:57. > :25:02.a madman? The brownie points are used up. I do not think Alex Salmond
:25:03. > :25:10.will be losing any sleep. Do you think the better together campaign
:25:11. > :25:15.will be delighted? Alex Salmond is not mad. Perhaps his policies are
:25:16. > :25:22.but it is a different argument. Is he going down if he loses the
:25:23. > :25:28.referendum? People in Hollywood are saying he might have to go. If it is
:25:29. > :25:35.a yes vote, David Cameron may have to go. Will one leader have to lose
:25:36. > :25:39.their job? If there is a yes vote, David Cameron will have to go. If
:25:40. > :25:47.there is a no vote, it is in the balance. A new survey has shown that
:25:48. > :25:56.perhaps the Scots are not so worried about nuclear weapons. 41% of Scots
:25:57. > :26:02.said Trident should stay. 37% say it should go. The SNP made a mistake in
:26:03. > :26:08.assuming Scots are antinuclear. The problem is when you do not look at
:26:09. > :26:13.the details, they asked particular questions to get particular answers.
:26:14. > :26:16.It is generally accepted the Scots are against nuclear weapons. A lot
:26:17. > :26:22.of assumptions are made about Scottish values and opinion polls do
:26:23. > :26:29.not buy them out often. Opinion polls have shown that there are a
:26:30. > :26:38.significant number of Scots who are OK about Trident. The SNP's notion
:26:39. > :26:47.that we are a different country to England is completely wrong. And
:26:48. > :26:52.others chilly another line so that two thirds say immigrants should
:26:53. > :26:57.wait for benefits. Do you think we should claim Scots values are
:26:58. > :27:03.different to the UK? When we come to vote, the Scots have different
:27:04. > :27:12.political culture. The Scot philosophy tends to be more social
:27:13. > :27:17.democratic. Is that true? I do not believe it at all. I think the
:27:18. > :27:21.values we share across these nations are exactly identical. Is it a
:27:22. > :27:27.fundamental mistake of the Yes campaign to tell us they are
:27:28. > :27:31.different? Absolutely. Massive mistake. When UKIP won their first
:27:32. > :27:35.seat in Scotland in the European elections was a sight to behold.
:27:36. > :27:39.They thought UKIP would never get a seat and they were wrong. The more
:27:40. > :27:45.we talk about Trident, the better it is for the Yes campaign. Thank you
:27:46. > :27:49.very much. That is it from us. I will be back at the same time
:27:50. > :27:56.tomorrow night. Do please join me then. Good night.