:00:07. > :00:25.Tonight we are asking what role religion might play in the vote.
:00:26. > :00:27.The Orange Order have been granted permission to march through
:00:28. > :00:31.the streets of Edinburgh just five days before the referendum vote.
:00:32. > :00:34.Will their flutes and drums actually persuade anyone to vote no?
:00:35. > :00:38.And does religion have any place in the polling booth?
:00:39. > :00:42.And of course we have to mention the Commonwealth Games opening ceremony.
:00:43. > :00:45.Up to a billion TV viewers around the world are watching
:00:46. > :00:59.Did we show them the very best of what we've got?
:01:00. > :01:01.Religion has always been very political in Scotland.
:01:02. > :01:04.But is politics religious these days?
:01:05. > :01:06.The Orange Order think that parading through the streets will persuade
:01:07. > :01:11.But will they repel more people than they attract?
:01:12. > :01:26.The site of the Queen in union colours in Celtic Park of all places
:01:27. > :01:31.may hold no significance of the vast majority of viewers throughout the
:01:32. > :01:36.Commonwealth, but it is likely to cause a few right smiles in part of
:01:37. > :01:40.Scotland. The country has worked hard to bridge the sectarian divide
:01:41. > :01:46.but the differences can still cause tensions. That is why plans for the
:01:47. > :01:51.Orange Order to hold a rally in Edinburgh day before the referendum
:01:52. > :01:55.have caused such controversy. Better Together have distanced themselves
:01:56. > :01:59.from the march, so why are the Orange Order determined to go ahead?
:02:00. > :02:04.We have been trying to reach our members with a message of
:02:05. > :02:07.complacency not being something to tolerate, because it is so important
:02:08. > :02:14.to vote in this referendum, it is such a big issue. The order has not
:02:15. > :02:23.hitherto reached out to the general public and that is what the march is
:02:24. > :02:33.about. If it referendum relevant? It is best friend -- relevant to the
:02:34. > :02:38.referendum. It is a largely working-class organisation. It
:02:39. > :02:43.strikes a chord with people who the church has lost. It has a much
:02:44. > :02:47.bigger membership than any party so it cannot really be underestimated.
:02:48. > :02:52.Less than 1% of the Protestant population are less -- members of
:02:53. > :02:59.the Orange Order so it is unlikely to swing the vote. But has the
:03:00. > :03:04.campaign underestimated what the last -- influence will be? The
:03:05. > :03:11.ministers say they will not be all to influence how we vote. But might
:03:12. > :03:14.our votes be made up on something tangible? How much is our cultural
:03:15. > :03:18.heritage and religious background likely to affect the way we vote? A
:03:19. > :03:22.recent study looking at the political views of modern-day Scots
:03:23. > :03:26.suggest a lot can be surmised from your surname. What surprised us
:03:27. > :03:30.particularly with those people with Irish catholic surnames were far
:03:31. > :03:34.more likely to vote yes than people with Scottish surnames. What we
:03:35. > :03:41.believe is that even though many Irish catholic descendants would
:03:42. > :03:43.today consider themselves Scottish, their attitudes towards England and
:03:44. > :03:51.Westminster in particular are still very much coloured by the experience
:03:52. > :03:54.of their forebears, going back three or four generations. Tonight's
:03:55. > :03:58.opening ceremony shows that Scotland has come a long way from the
:03:59. > :04:00.sectarian divisions of the past. But can we ever really separate religion
:04:01. > :04:01.and politics? And joining me this evening is
:04:02. > :04:04.the Church of Scotland Minister, Doug Gay, who teaches theology
:04:05. > :04:06.at Glasgow University. The leading human rights QC,
:04:07. > :04:08.Derek Ogg. And the cultural commentator,
:04:09. > :04:19.Stuart Cosgrove. Thank you for joining us. Let's talk
:04:20. > :04:23.about the Orange Order first. Do you think they will be helpful in
:04:24. > :04:28.attracting votes to the no side or will they repel more people than may
:04:29. > :04:31.attract? I think the Orange Order are very marginal organisation in
:04:32. > :04:35.contemporary Scotland and they will have very little effect on the
:04:36. > :04:40.outcome and I cannot imagine them persuading anyone at all to switch
:04:41. > :04:43.allegiance or even really mobilising their own base particularly. Might
:04:44. > :04:46.they actually put people off if there is a huge parade through
:04:47. > :04:52.Edinburgh encouraging people to vote no, it could have the opposite
:04:53. > :04:56.effect? I doubt it. I do think it will going -- it'll go over most
:04:57. > :05:00.people's head, it will be reported, and it will be called controversial
:05:01. > :05:03.because politicians will call it controversial. I think most people
:05:04. > :05:07.will not care less what the Orange order and the membership thing and I
:05:08. > :05:11.rather guess the membership made their mind up about the union flag
:05:12. > :05:15.300 years ago rather than in the last few weeks. I don't think it
:05:16. > :05:19.will make a difference to the vote. And if the no campaign can't get a
:05:20. > :05:24.majority without the help of the Orange Order, they do not deserve to
:05:25. > :05:28.win. It is very easy to dismiss the Orange Order here as irrelevant and
:05:29. > :05:32.a tiny minority of the publishing but for those people involved with
:05:33. > :05:35.them, it is a very important and passionate cause. Will they at least
:05:36. > :05:43.help to get those people out to the polls? He made the point that they
:05:44. > :05:49.have got the deep roots in micro-communities which are all the
:05:50. > :05:52.working class communities, and there is still some connection here, and
:05:53. > :05:57.they will be able to mobilise that small percentage of votes. But like
:05:58. > :06:00.so much of the referendum, there are all these circuitous convictions
:06:01. > :06:04.that go on. Ironically, the Orange Order parades that have been allowed
:06:05. > :06:09.and tolerated by the city of Edinburgh came on the back of a
:06:10. > :06:12.coherent argument about human rights. The idea of the human rights
:06:13. > :06:18.legislation that they are referring to is something that the Tory party
:06:19. > :06:22.in England wants to go back on. The only reason now that the Orange
:06:23. > :06:25.Order can preserve their human rights to march in future is by
:06:26. > :06:31.voting yes, therein lies the circuitous logic of this referendum.
:06:32. > :06:34.You are speaking on a personal capacity not for the church, but
:06:35. > :06:42.personally, do you find the Orange Order a bit embarrassing? Do I find
:06:43. > :06:47.them embarrassing? I disagree very strongly with the position that they
:06:48. > :06:51.take in relation to religion. In some ways, I don't think they are
:06:52. > :06:56.particularly a religious organisation any more, based down
:06:57. > :07:00.for a certain kind of cultural identity. -- they stand for. I think
:07:01. > :07:03.an organisation like them that defines themselves largely about
:07:04. > :07:08.what they are against as much as by what they are for is not something
:07:09. > :07:13.that the Church of Scotland, I think they have distanced themselves very
:07:14. > :07:17.strongly for many decades from the values and positions of the Orange
:07:18. > :07:20.Order. If we had been having this conversation 20 years ago it would
:07:21. > :07:25.be very different, and we would not be writing of the Orange Order is a
:07:26. > :07:28.tiny minority organisation. Has Scotland moved past sectarianism,
:07:29. > :07:34.are we in a post-sectarian Scotland? I don't think we should
:07:35. > :07:40.take this on to sectarianism, rather we should be talking about the
:07:41. > :07:46.individual religious organisations and their influence. It is a too big
:07:47. > :07:51.situation to mix up. 20 or 30 years ago, every church in Scotland would
:07:52. > :07:54.have had a say on this, every church in Scotland would be seeking
:07:55. > :07:58.political influence in politics, much more directly and effectively
:07:59. > :08:01.than they have now. I remember the Church of Scotland's role, the
:08:02. > :08:09.Catholic Church's role in making sure the 1967 act which legalised
:08:10. > :08:12.homosexuality in England and Wales did not happen in Scotland because
:08:13. > :08:18.they said they had a much different cultural identity. The church used
:08:19. > :08:21.to directly lead in politics, all of them peddling their particularly
:08:22. > :08:26.line and take on human rights. And they do not have that influence,
:08:27. > :08:33.thank goodness, nowadays. I think that no more does the Acra one has
:08:34. > :08:37.that insolence, no more -- no more does the Orange order have that
:08:38. > :08:44.influence, no model any influences from the church. I think the Church
:08:45. > :08:47.of Scotland is divided down the middle on this, there are very
:08:48. > :08:51.strong opinions on both sides of the argument. What we have tried to do
:08:52. > :08:57.within the Church of Scotland, we have tried to ensure there is a good
:08:58. > :09:00.conversation at the National conversation has been one of the
:09:01. > :09:05.really positive features of this referendum debate. People have
:09:06. > :09:09.turned out in unprecedented numbers at town hall meetings, many
:09:10. > :09:13.organised by churches, as many hustings are at general elections.
:09:14. > :09:16.People have come out and had powerful conversations about the
:09:17. > :09:20.kind of society that they want to live in. To many people in
:09:21. > :09:24.Scotland, despite what Derek says, that vision of the good society is
:09:25. > :09:28.not informed by their religious beliefs and convictions. Do you seek
:09:29. > :09:34.religion playing a different role in Scotland than it did a generation
:09:35. > :09:38.ago? Vary much so, we now know we are in end increasingly secular
:09:39. > :09:42.society, and the secularisation of our society has meant that some of
:09:43. > :09:46.the kind of codes of behaviour that once tied us to religion... A good
:09:47. > :09:54.example would be in the catholic faith, where there was a
:09:55. > :09:57.presumption, and it was well held until 20 years ago, that the Labour
:09:58. > :10:02.Party constituted a party that was to some extent protective of the
:10:03. > :10:06.Catholics as a minority in Scotland, and many people had come
:10:07. > :10:09.in from Italy or Poland or particularly Ireland, and there was
:10:10. > :10:12.a presumption somehow that the Catholic Church was coherent around
:10:13. > :10:19.a policy of protection. A lot of that has died away now. I think the
:10:20. > :10:24.secularisation of Scottish life means the referendum has barely been
:10:25. > :10:28.touched by religion in that way. I do not disagree that religion can
:10:29. > :10:32.have conversations, but many of the conversations I witnessed in public
:10:33. > :10:36.events and online are things to do with compassion and tolerance, they
:10:37. > :10:40.are to do with how Scotland will be organised as a more equal society.
:10:41. > :10:43.All of which, of course, religion cares about, but they are also
:10:44. > :10:47.issues that people who are not religious care about as well. That
:10:48. > :10:52.question about the Catholic vote is fascinating, because that is what
:10:53. > :10:57.Paul Intel up -- polling tells us, years ago many more did not want to
:10:58. > :11:00.vote for independence. There was it was assumed a fear that an
:11:01. > :11:04.independent Scotland would be governed by some kind of Protestant
:11:05. > :11:07.majority that would be unkind orders grew military about a Catholic
:11:08. > :11:13.minority. Now we see Catholics in positions across public life in
:11:14. > :11:15.Scotland, that they have gone. That is a positive statement about modern
:11:16. > :11:26.Scotland that there is nothing to fear about being Catholics. Some
:11:27. > :11:29.organisations have led without dividing on morality and so on. They
:11:30. > :11:37.have taken a strong line on women's rights, on all forms of bigotry in
:11:38. > :11:40.Scotland and intolerance. I think the presence of secularisation does
:11:41. > :11:44.not mean the absence of morality. The history of socialism in Scotland
:11:45. > :11:48.tells you that, it is all about that. Good people can still be good
:11:49. > :11:54.people, good Scots, irrespective of which if any church you go to. And I
:11:55. > :11:58.go to none but I still hope I am a decent contributing member of
:11:59. > :12:01.society. The governments of this country we have had, Labour and
:12:02. > :12:10.SNP, can take a Crescent -- credit for that. The church does not want
:12:11. > :12:16.to claim any man -- monopoly on people's thinking on morality. We
:12:17. > :12:20.have had also 20 years of churches working together more closely. The
:12:21. > :12:23.fight against sectarianism has been led off by the churches and the
:12:24. > :12:28.ecumenical movement, and people working together and building
:12:29. > :12:34.relationships at grassroots. Talking about the Catholic vote, is there
:12:35. > :12:44.such a thing? Is it that there is now is limp, Jewish and Hindi vote?
:12:45. > :12:48.-- eight Muslim? We know from significant people within the no
:12:49. > :12:53.camp, I think there is a battle for the soul of the Asian population of
:12:54. > :13:01.Scotland going on as we speak. Those things will matter. I think people
:13:02. > :13:04.test it, I cannot speak for people within the south side of Glasgow
:13:05. > :13:08.Asian communities, but certainly within my own life, I noticed that
:13:09. > :13:13.people are more likely to believe a politician that is close to them,
:13:14. > :13:17.that shares lifestyles with them, lives in the same community with
:13:18. > :13:20.them. That is not unique to multiculturalism, that is something
:13:21. > :13:24.people have wanted throughout, they want politicians to be closer to
:13:25. > :13:29.them. If that means closer to a multicultural community, so be it.
:13:30. > :13:35.The Church of Scotland are staying out of the referendum debate but
:13:36. > :13:38.they have said that come September 19, they will step in if there is a
:13:39. > :13:44.role to soothe people 's feelings. How will that work? It is wrong to
:13:45. > :13:48.say that they are staying out of the debate, there was a high profile
:13:49. > :13:52.event where myself and Douglas Alexander put opposite feelings
:13:53. > :14:00.across. They are actively involved and they have done a lot of events
:14:01. > :14:04.across Scotland. They also recognise that it is a divisive debate and one
:14:05. > :14:08.of the things that the church cares about is reconciliation across
:14:09. > :14:12.society, people having a respectful dialogue and going forward in a
:14:13. > :14:16.spirit of reconciliation. Because this is a divisive process, we know
:14:17. > :14:19.that, within our families and friendship groups, people are on
:14:20. > :14:23.opposite sides. The church wants to play a positive role. We have to
:14:24. > :14:26.leave it there. Now, thanks very much for watching
:14:27. > :14:29.us whilst the Commonwealth Games opening ceremony is coming to
:14:30. > :14:32.a close on the other side. We appreciate your loyalty to
:14:33. > :14:33.the programme, or possibly your determination to
:14:34. > :14:36.avoid coverage of the extravaganza. So we are going to reward you with
:14:37. > :14:40.a quick look at all the best bits Come on in and meet the people of
:14:41. > :17:04.Glasgow. Some of the highlights of the
:17:05. > :17:08.opening of the Commonwealth Games tonight. Our very own Jonathan
:17:09. > :17:11.Sutherland is outside Celtic Park for us right now. Tell us how people
:17:12. > :17:45.have been reacting to for us right now. Tell us how people
:17:46. > :17:51.Appleman bulging out of a giant Celt, tonight was your lucky night.
:17:52. > :19:11.As always with these things, always a huge twitter explosion.
:19:12. > :19:14.As always with these things, always or what? I do not think that will go
:19:15. > :19:23.down well for those performers behind the camera. Some irony. The
:19:24. > :19:31.fireworks now just going off overhead. The opening ceremony going
:19:32. > :19:38.on for another 15 minutes or so. The talking point will be happy got the
:19:39. > :19:41.tone right. And Jonathan will be live on the programme every night of
:19:42. > :19:44.the Commonwealth Games. Now, let's take a look at what is making
:19:45. > :19:55.headlines around the rest of the world tonight. The South China
:19:56. > :20:02.morning Post reports a plane has crashed after an emergency landing
:20:03. > :20:09.in Taiwan's killing 40 people. Explosions have ripped through the
:20:10. > :20:18.northern Nigeria city. A human rights official condemned Israel in
:20:19. > :20:23.the Gaza Strip saying war crimes may have been committed. Back again, is
:20:24. > :20:33.Stuart Cosgrove the cultural critic, and the film critic from the Herald,
:20:34. > :20:40.Alison Rowat. Did you like it? I did, it had to appeal to a lot of
:20:41. > :20:46.audiences, national, international, most importantly Glasgow as well.
:20:47. > :22:09.The start was quite shaky, a lot of people would not have
:22:10. > :22:15.Unicef element, and Ewan McGregor came on at the start. That was very
:22:16. > :22:24.interesting, no one has ever used an opening ceremony for a fundraising
:22:25. > :22:29.effort. I think it also kept reminding you of how diverse and
:22:30. > :22:36.socially diverse the Commonwealth remains, they have profound social
:22:37. > :22:47.problems in parts of the Commonwealth, Scotland has as well.
:22:48. > :22:50.Sachin Tendulkar was there, he is a God in India, and they kept talking
:22:51. > :22:59.about a billion audience around the world, most of those were in India,
:23:00. > :23:04.they had the biggest star in India, and we are talking about John Baron
:23:05. > :23:11.Mark -- John -- John Barrowman? Get a life! We have an incredible chance
:23:12. > :23:15.and an historic opportunity to show the world was huge difference we can
:23:16. > :23:20.all make when we act as one to put children first. A genuine sporting
:23:21. > :23:23.superstar who would have been recognised by people watching
:23:24. > :23:31.overseas. It reminds us that a lot of this was aimed at people who were
:23:32. > :23:36.watching overseas. We get the jokes about the teacakes and the Scottie
:23:37. > :23:43.dogs, will anybody have understood it anywhere else? No! On that level
:23:44. > :23:49.it failed. Then again, look at the international reaction to London
:23:50. > :23:55.2012. People all over the world were puzzled about, people jumping in and
:23:56. > :24:03.out of beds and stovepipe hats, what on earth is all that about. They are
:24:04. > :24:08.trying to set a general picture, I think the teacakes, at least people
:24:09. > :24:11.would have laughed at it. What London 2012 did do, even though it
:24:12. > :24:17.may not have been appreciated that well, it told the story of what
:24:18. > :24:22.Britain is for British itself. What story was Scotland telling to its
:24:23. > :24:26.after night? I thought the Danny Boyle Olympics, I was less convinced
:24:27. > :24:29.by that as well. I have to confess that I was not one of those people
:24:30. > :24:33.that thought it was the most godlike thing in the world. I thought it
:24:34. > :24:39.told of very highly partial and selective story of Britain. In that
:24:40. > :24:45.sense I felt it was quite thin as well. It held a story though. It
:24:46. > :24:52.did, but the cohesion was, I think it kicked in after in the 1940s,
:24:53. > :24:55.with the rise of the NHS. The modern story of Britain. But it did not
:24:56. > :24:59.talk about the fractured Britain, it did not talk about the riots, there
:25:00. > :25:02.was a lot of things we did not talk about, it was highly selective. I
:25:03. > :25:06.think this is highly selective as well. It was selecting imagery. It
:25:07. > :25:13.was a thing about the images that you may know all trade in Scotland,
:25:14. > :25:17.hence the tartan and the Timex teacakes and those things. I think
:25:18. > :25:20.the bits of Scotland that I care less about, and some of the
:25:21. > :25:23.imaginative things that Scotland can be, there was a little bit of me
:25:24. > :25:29.saying, when are they going to blow up the flats? That is a good idea! A
:25:30. > :25:32.lot of people on Twitter said suddenly blowing up the flats did
:25:33. > :25:37.not look like such a bad idea after all if you have got to watch John
:25:38. > :25:42.Barrowman instead! It was not a very modern Scotland. It was containing a
:25:43. > :25:46.gay kiss, but it did not feel very forward-looking, multicultural,
:25:47. > :25:58.technological, it was very pretty cool. -- body doing. -- Brigadoon.
:25:59. > :26:03.The Scottie dogs, people were doing and dying. I think if you are a
:26:04. > :26:07.breeder now, you are going to say, people are going to want to Scottie
:26:08. > :26:13.dog tomorrow! You are rubbing your hands! Everybody says, we will not
:26:14. > :26:18.talk about politics, during the referendum, the First Minister has a
:26:19. > :26:22.self-denying ordinance. We cannot resist talking about politics. Here
:26:23. > :26:24.we are, weeks away from a referendum and we have a billion people
:26:25. > :26:29.watching the story of Scotland describing itself to the world. Was
:26:30. > :26:35.it a nationalist or Unionist vision, or neither? I think it was a modern
:26:36. > :26:40.compromise. I felt the ceremony was hugely comprised. I don't think
:26:41. > :26:44.there was any great gusto for the God save the Queen, there was a lot
:26:45. > :26:48.of embarrassment, not just the Monica herself, but actually in the
:26:49. > :26:51.stadium. I do not it was a great version of it. You felt as if it was
:26:52. > :26:55.there because it has to be there rather than anyone had any great
:26:56. > :27:02.wheel. It is not Scotland's National anthem so why it was there I don't
:27:03. > :27:05.know, I suppose it is because the Queen is the head of the
:27:06. > :27:09.Commonwealth. You got the feeling that this was an event in Scotland
:27:10. > :27:16.shaped by compromises. We scored with Scotland team come on in the
:27:17. > :27:23.end, get a huge team -- cheer from the crowd, what did you think of the
:27:24. > :27:26.tartan in the end? It did not seem as bad as it did in the cold light
:27:27. > :27:31.of day when it was first unrevealed. Excited about the games
:27:32. > :27:37.now you are over the opening ceremony? I thought it struck quite
:27:38. > :27:41.a lot international tone, the Unicef thing helped. We are welcoming
:27:42. > :27:46.visitors. It set a nice friendly atmosphere. Thank you both very much
:27:47. > :27:49.for coming in. That is it from us tonight. Thank you for watching,
:27:50. > :27:53.we'll be back again same time tomorrow night, join then. -- join
:27:54. > :27:55.me then.