:00:07. > :00:12.Head to head. Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling in the first big
:00:13. > :00:28.debate. So, have they changed any minds tonight?
:00:29. > :00:34.For both men, this was one of the most important nights of their
:00:35. > :00:38.political lives. Their chance to put the arguments for and against an
:00:39. > :00:42.independent Scotland direct to the voters. It was passionate and he
:00:43. > :00:46.did, at times more than a little tetchy. So, who got their message
:00:47. > :00:51.across and what did we learn? We will be bringing you the analysis
:00:52. > :00:54.and insight. I'll be at the venue for the latest from spin Alley and
:00:55. > :00:58.we'll be hearing from three young voters. I'm in North Queensferry
:00:59. > :01:03.with a group of undecided voters gauging their reaction. For
:01:04. > :01:09.political reaction we will be talking to Labour's Margaret: And
:01:10. > :01:14.Margaret Neil from the SNP. And we will be casting our eye over social
:01:15. > :01:16.media. And we have three wise men, Ryan Taylor, John Curtice and Allan
:01:17. > :01:24.Little. So, the phoney war is over, the
:01:25. > :01:27.first shots have been fired in the referendum campaign proper. We'd
:01:28. > :01:31.been debating independence FIFA years, but tonight the campaign
:01:32. > :01:34.really got going as the two biggest piece is in the referendum jungle
:01:35. > :01:39.went head-to-head in a televised debate for the first time. The
:01:40. > :01:43.contest was shown on STV, but stay with us for the finest post-match
:01:44. > :01:46.analysis. Will tonight go down in history as a classic of its kind?
:01:47. > :01:55.Year is Glen Campbell with the highlights. Can I move beyond
:01:56. > :02:00.political point scoring? I am not going to exploit my opponent's youth
:02:01. > :02:04.and inexperience. Who is going to keep one of these two under
:02:05. > :02:10.control? Grab them by the short and curlews? That is the issue. We are
:02:11. > :02:14.used to seeing wannabe First Ministers, prime ministers and
:02:15. > :02:21.presidents clash on TV in election campaigns. But tonight is different.
:02:22. > :02:23.Neither Alex Hammond or Alistair Darling are standing for office,
:02:24. > :02:29.they are selling competing visions of Scotland's future. The Yes
:02:30. > :02:32.Campaign say independence is about better decision-making. No one will
:02:33. > :02:40.do a better job of running Scotland than the people that live and work
:02:41. > :02:43.in Scotland. The No Campaign say that Scottish elections don't
:02:44. > :02:48.necessarily deliver better outcomes. When it comes to getting governments
:02:49. > :02:52.you didn't vote for, I didn't vote for him, I'm stuck with him, I
:02:53. > :02:56.accept that happens in a democracy. Some say that voting no will not
:02:57. > :03:04.mean no change, but more power will be devolved. More tax power. Two
:03:05. > :03:10.things are happening. Power is already coming when you have power
:03:11. > :03:15.for income tax. And they will have additional power to vary the rate of
:03:16. > :03:21.income tax. Alex Hammond argues only independence guarantees the powers
:03:22. > :03:24.that he thinks Hollywood needs. In cross-examination, Alistair Darling
:03:25. > :03:30.repeatedly asked the First Minister for his plan B if the rest of the UK
:03:31. > :03:33.were to reject a currency union. I want you to contemplate for just one
:03:34. > :03:41.minute the fact that you might be wrong. What is plan B? We will take
:03:42. > :03:45.the pound because it longs to Scotland as much as it belongs to
:03:46. > :03:50.England. It is our pound as well as yours. Mr Darling claimed that
:03:51. > :03:54.Scotland could be left without the back-up of the Bank of England as
:03:55. > :03:56.lender of last resort. You cannot seriously be saying this. Remember,
:03:57. > :04:05.the financial markets are listening to what you have his say. You can't
:04:06. > :04:09.survive using somebody else's currency. I am talking about the
:04:10. > :04:13.financial markets, and that is not your strongest suit given what
:04:14. > :04:19.happened to the financial market when you were Chancellor of the
:04:20. > :04:22.Exchequer. Alex Salmond quizzed his opponent and accused the Better
:04:23. > :04:27.Together campaign of spreading scare stories. The No Campaign have said
:04:28. > :04:32.independence will mean that we have to drive on the right-hand side of
:04:33. > :04:44.the road. Is that true? For goodness sake, we said it as a joke. Do you
:04:45. > :04:47.know what a joke is? IC -- IC! Alex Salmond said Better Together
:04:48. > :04:49.misrepresented the head of the European Commission by claiming he
:04:50. > :04:56.said that an independent Scotland could be frozen out of the EU. Will
:04:57. > :05:01.you withdraw that claim from the website? Not an issue of driving on
:05:02. > :05:06.the wrong side of the road? On a central issue of the campaign? He
:05:07. > :05:12.didn't do that, but conceded that Scotland could eventually gain EU
:05:13. > :05:17.membership. I've always said they could get back in, I have been
:05:18. > :05:22.speaking about how long it would take. Alex Salmond tried repeatedly
:05:23. > :05:48.to get Alistair Darling to conceive, as he claimed the Prime Minister had
:05:49. > :05:51.already done, that Scotland could make a success of independence. Do
:05:52. > :06:00.you agree with David Cameron or not? I feel like Michael Howard or Jeremy
:06:01. > :06:02.Kyle. These are combat it is exchanges without a killer blow. Is
:06:03. > :06:03.the first time they had clashed. In the final six weeks of campaigning,
:06:04. > :06:04.it probably won't be the last. Joining us now is a trio of top
:06:05. > :06:05.talent, our own political editor Brian Taylor, psephologist
:06:06. > :06:07.extraordinaire Brian Curtis and our special correspondent Allan Little.
:06:08. > :06:11.Just a little simplistic, to ask you one, was there a game changer in
:06:12. > :06:15.there tonight? I don't think so, I think it was the greatest hits from
:06:16. > :06:19.the last few years. I don't blame the programme, and I don't blame
:06:20. > :06:24.either competent for that. We have the ground set out by both sides.
:06:25. > :06:36.What they are doing is evangelising their positions. In terms of success
:06:37. > :06:36.from each side, I think Alistair Darling pursued the questions with
:06:37. > :06:38.vigour and enthusiasm, and endeavour. I think Alex Salmond on a
:06:39. > :06:43.couple of occasions successfully evangelised the point about the
:06:44. > :06:47.argument of people knowing best for Scotland being the people that live
:06:48. > :06:50.here. In terms of areas where one or the other slipped up, I think that
:06:51. > :06:55.Alistair Darling seemed to feel that the questions about the number of
:06:56. > :07:02.panderers, the pandas being returned and driving on the right side of the
:07:03. > :07:09.road, that it was a bit of frippery. I think Alex Salmond seized upon,
:07:10. > :07:19.during the debate, Alistair Darling stumbling a little bit over the
:07:20. > :07:35.question of more powers, precisely which powers would be devolved in
:07:36. > :07:51.the event of a no vote. Both of them stumbled a bit of questions they
:07:52. > :08:01.were not eager to answer. Any big problems for either of them? What
:08:02. > :08:10.we've learned tonight is partly how bitterly the country is divided. You
:08:11. > :08:20.could see them struggling to maintain civility. The phoney war is
:08:21. > :08:23.over. There was a jolt of electricity that went through the
:08:24. > :08:27.campaign tonight. If anybody had asked most of us, most political
:08:28. > :08:30.observers who they expected to win, they would have said, clearly, Alex
:08:31. > :08:34.Salmond is the stronger debater. Even Alistair Darling's most fervent
:08:35. > :08:42.supporters would have said it is not really his great strength. It might
:08:43. > :08:46.not be fair, pro-independence supporters might not like it, but
:08:47. > :08:50.the burden of proof is still on the people who want to make a radical
:08:51. > :08:53.change. I think we saw an indication that Better Together have decided,
:08:54. > :08:55.never mind appearing negative or worrying that they might be
:08:56. > :08:57.counter-productive, never mind worrying it might backfire, they are
:08:58. > :08:59.going to keep plucking up that thread of the currency because they
:09:00. > :09:00.believe it will get them over the line. The burden of expectation was
:09:01. > :09:03.on Alex Hammond's shoulders. If you go into it with everybody expecting
:09:04. > :09:04.you to win, you need to do better than expectation. Alistair Darling
:09:05. > :09:13.is the winner in a snap poll for the Guardian. I think there will be
:09:14. > :09:17.little change in intentions. If every committed voter said their
:09:18. > :09:22.side had won, that is what we would have anticipated. Both sides
:09:23. > :09:26.probably thought their own personal one. Because the yes side are behind
:09:27. > :09:29.in the opinion polls, Alex Salmond needed to be seen to be winning by
:09:30. > :09:35.some no supporters. needed to be seen to be winning by
:09:36. > :09:44.some no I don't think this will succeed in moving many voters. For
:09:45. > :09:47.the most part, most of them decided to focus on topics that concerned
:09:48. > :09:51.their existing supporters, rather than the topic that we know is
:09:52. > :09:57.central to most voters in general in Scotland, whether or not
:09:58. > :10:05.independence would be good or bad for Scotland's economy. There was
:10:06. > :10:07.very little discussion about how we ensure that a post oil Scotland has
:10:08. > :10:11.its economy managed in such a way that public finances are
:10:12. > :10:19.sustainable. That is the central issue for most voters. We had the No
:10:20. > :10:23.Campaign going on endlessly about the currency, on the Yes Campaign
:10:24. > :10:29.side, Mr Alex Salmond talking about food banks and not getting the
:10:30. > :10:33.government that we elected. We know these arguments that appeal to their
:10:34. > :10:36.own supporters, but we also know they don't have much traction beyond
:10:37. > :10:40.that. It was surprisingly they both decided to fight over territory that
:10:41. > :10:46.seemed least likely to win over the people they were supposed to win
:10:47. > :10:51.over, the undecided voter. There is a substantial chunk of undecided
:10:52. > :10:55.voters. If the phoney war is over, will they have learned anything
:10:56. > :10:59.tonight to help them make a decision? I don't think they will
:11:00. > :11:05.have. The overall political impression is quite important. The
:11:06. > :11:10.Yes Campaign have always believed that undecideds, when confronted
:11:11. > :11:15.with the ardent in full, tend to go in favour of independence. I don't
:11:16. > :11:19.think that will be the result. The way that Alistair Darling kept
:11:20. > :11:24.plucking at that thread of the currency, plucking at that thread of
:11:25. > :11:28.the uncertainty over the European Union, despite their fears earlier
:11:29. > :11:31.in the year, I think that George Osborne coming to Edinburgh and
:11:32. > :11:34.saying, no, you can't have the pound, despite fears it was
:11:35. > :11:44.backfiring, it is clear they decided to go for that. They have decided it
:11:45. > :11:50.is not backfiring. The polls are supporting that. The Yes Campaign
:11:51. > :11:55.say that people are going from no two undecided, and from undecided,
:11:56. > :11:58.to yes. That was their own private polling earlier in the year. I think
:11:59. > :12:04.they will struggle now to sustain that argument. From a nonpartisan
:12:05. > :12:08.point of view, I think the Nationalists will have to take a
:12:09. > :12:14.hard look at the way they are presenting the argument now and
:12:15. > :12:18.consider the way that the Better Together campaign have exposed what
:12:19. > :12:22.is still a very important weakness. What is in Yes Scotland have taken
:12:23. > :12:28.away from this? They will say that it is just Idle project fear from
:12:29. > :12:35.Alistair Darling, but if it is working... Alistair Darling has once
:12:36. > :12:42.said he thought it was best to say no. So he was, in a sense, getting
:12:43. > :12:46.back his negativity. They would say it was a positive campaign, in that
:12:47. > :12:49.they were positively against independence. A couple of things, a
:12:50. > :12:54.theatrical point, on three occasions, Alex Salmond stepped out
:12:55. > :13:00.from the rostrum and went out to the front of the stage, directly
:13:01. > :13:06.addressing the audience, and looking towards the audience at home. In
:13:07. > :13:09.other words, slightly sidelining Alistair Darling, geographically and
:13:10. > :13:12.intellectually. Trying to appeal directly. That was perhaps when he
:13:13. > :13:20.was at his most effective, the voice quieted, the demeanour lessened from
:13:21. > :13:23.the aggression that you always get in the exchanges. Alex Salmond was
:13:24. > :13:30.perhaps pitching directly to people, again, all this simple formula that
:13:31. > :13:33.the people of Scotland are best placed to govern themselves.
:13:34. > :13:37.Alistair Darling's report, well, I didn't vote for him, it was
:13:38. > :13:41.effective theatre. But when you think about it, actually, it didn't
:13:42. > :13:53.add up to meaning very much. I can see the effective theatre. One
:13:54. > :14:00.audience member accused him of being snide and not very nice. It was
:14:01. > :14:04.tetchy on both sides but not especially aggressive. There were
:14:05. > :14:09.suggestions from both sides that perhaps the other had questions to
:14:10. > :14:14.answer. We did not learn very much. But on the question of the
:14:15. > :14:21.currency, Alistair Darling pursued that effectively. But Alex Salmond
:14:22. > :14:27.has stuck to this mantra now for perhaps more than a year to say that
:14:28. > :14:31.there is not a Plan B because Plan A will be in the interest of both
:14:32. > :14:35.Scotland and the remainder of the UK. If you did buy that argument
:14:36. > :14:39.then you would buy it again tonight. And we can cross now to outside
:14:40. > :14:42.the debate at the Conservatoire Our correspondent James Cook has
:14:43. > :14:45.been in the Spin Room, where the politicians and their staff try
:14:46. > :14:58.to persuade the hacks that It is interesting that the No
:14:59. > :15:03.campaign, the Better Together campaign, take the view that this
:15:04. > :15:08.was a decisive three. That is a quote from one of their spin
:15:09. > :15:15.doctors. The Yes campaign have not gone that
:15:16. > :15:18.far. Everyone likes to save their side did well but it is interesting
:15:19. > :15:21.to note that they have not taken that approach. I spoke to one senior
:15:22. > :15:27.figure in the Yes campaign is said to me he thought it had been a good
:15:28. > :15:32.opportunity for them to get their arguments across. I suggested that
:15:33. > :15:35.many people watching regarded Alistair Darling as being the winner
:15:36. > :15:39.of this debate. And he said we just think we have done well because we
:15:40. > :15:41.have got the arguments out there to the public. So I think that tells
:15:42. > :15:46.you something. How has it gone
:15:47. > :15:50.down with the viewers? Our Correspondent Lorna Gordon is
:15:51. > :16:02.in North Queensferry in Fife. There are figureheads for both sides
:16:03. > :16:05.in the debate speaking to the audience and also to the wider
:16:06. > :16:13.electorate. The 4 million or so voters. And in particular they were
:16:14. > :16:19.targeting the undecided voters who could hold sway in this referendum.
:16:20. > :16:22.We gathered a group of them together in North Queensferry to see what
:16:23. > :16:28.they're made of it. There were few high points, it was
:16:29. > :16:36.point-scoring on both sides but we did not get to the nitty gritty of
:16:37. > :16:42.the economic. You said you wanted answers about the economy. Did you
:16:43. > :16:48.get them? No, and not about pensions either. It went into tuition fees a
:16:49. > :16:55.little bit. But the older generation want to know about pensions. At some
:16:56. > :17:01.point there was more discussion going on here, it seemed more
:17:02. > :17:05.animated here than on the screen. I think we got more answers from each
:17:06. > :17:10.other than from the party leaders. People want to know how it will
:17:11. > :17:15.affect their lives in an independent Scotland. What would change. Will
:17:16. > :17:21.there be more money for home care and social services, for education.
:17:22. > :17:30.How will the money from the top the dished out to those at the bottom.
:17:31. > :17:36.Did you think that they were talking to you or just to which other? I
:17:37. > :17:41.felt it was the same old stuff that we have heard in the past. You get
:17:42. > :17:44.those leaflets through the door from both sides and it was just a
:17:45. > :17:50.reiteration of what we have already heard. I wanted to know how it would
:17:51. > :17:58.affect me, what would change and help we pay for it. How it would
:17:59. > :18:01.affect us tax wise. So many questions and I do not think we got
:18:02. > :18:07.the answers which was disappointing. But it has given me a lot to think
:18:08. > :18:12.about. And to maybe make my mind up either way.
:18:13. > :18:19.You came in undecided, what about now? Still undecided. It has not
:18:20. > :18:26.helped me make a decision one way or another. Not enough substance in it
:18:27. > :18:34.to have formed an actual opinion to go into the ballot box. Who came off
:18:35. > :18:39.better in terms of the debate? Alex Salmond came across his usual self.
:18:40. > :18:44.He had a lot of confidence and bravado. I thought Alistair Darling
:18:45. > :18:46.came across very well. I thought he would struggle tonight but he
:18:47. > :18:48.came across very well. I thought he across was a lot more passion than
:18:49. > :19:04.we have Well, that was what
:19:05. > :19:06.the public made of it. For Labour,
:19:07. > :19:09.the MP Margaret Curran who's Shadow And for the Scottish Government,
:19:10. > :19:12.the Cabinet Minister for Health So,
:19:13. > :19:15.I'm taking a wild stab in the dark here and assuming Alex Neil, that
:19:16. > :19:29.you think the First Minister won? I think he did. He was able to
:19:30. > :19:32.expose the thrash about additional powers if you vote no.
:19:33. > :21:03.expose the thrash about additional that is not going to happen.
:21:04. > :21:04.expose the thrash about additional at the did not happen tonight. The
:21:05. > :21:10.arguments from both of you men did not connect for our viewers. They
:21:11. > :21:17.said they were not more certain than before. Well the arguments about how
:21:18. > :21:23.it will affect people, there were some efforts to get to that. Alex
:21:24. > :21:27.Salmond was asked how he would tackle poverty in Scotland. And he
:21:28. > :21:31.refused to answer. He will not acknowledged there are any problems
:21:32. > :21:37.or challenges from independence. I think that just does not work.
:21:38. > :21:40.People know that there must be some downside to it. And he will not
:21:41. > :21:45.acknowledge any. He just thinks everything will be great in an
:21:46. > :21:52.independent Scotland but I think voters are too sophisticated. He
:21:53. > :21:57.spelt out how independence would be better for pensioners both today and
:21:58. > :22:02.tomorrow. One of the commitments we made is that the minimum wage would
:22:03. > :22:07.go up with inflation and that will make a huge difference to taking
:22:08. > :22:12.people in work out of poverty. This is just one debate of a whole series
:22:13. > :22:16.of debate and campaigning. And inevitably in these debates they
:22:17. > :22:23.tend to concentrate as you can only do, and a few subjects. It was an
:22:24. > :22:28.hour and a half and they covered a wide range of topics. They did not
:22:29. > :22:32.feel as if they were really connecting with voters, either of
:22:33. > :22:39.them, and explaining what the consequences of their own lives
:22:40. > :22:44.would be. I would disagree. I think tension is a big issue for people.
:22:45. > :22:50.For future pensioners as well. And that was an area where Alex Salmond
:22:51. > :22:54.spelt out in a lot of detail exactly what would happen in an independent
:22:55. > :23:03.Scotland. Because the pensioners are a top priority for us. Well the
:23:04. > :23:07.error is to assert again and again that things will be better in an
:23:08. > :23:14.independent Scotland. How and in what way? We do have challenges
:23:15. > :23:19.about the oil running out. And organisations saying we would start
:23:20. > :23:24.of with a deficit. How do we answer that? Just saying again and again we
:23:25. > :23:30.wanted to be better, that does not work. Alistair Darling was asked how
:23:31. > :23:32.things would be better after a no vote and what powers would be
:23:33. > :23:36.devolved and he really stumbled on that. He did not carefully explain
:23:37. > :23:44.what further demolition there would be. Someone like me who has been
:23:45. > :23:50.involved in that I can give categoric assurances that
:23:51. > :23:54.legislation will be passed to make sure there are extra powers for the
:23:55. > :23:57.Scottish Parliament. They will range over a number of areas from housing
:23:58. > :24:03.benefit to employment law to taxes. I think that has resonance with
:24:04. > :24:08.voters. And that is what the Scottish people want and what they
:24:09. > :24:14.will get. There was a Queen 's speech last month so why did they
:24:15. > :24:20.not put it in that? They just had legislation on it. They did not put
:24:21. > :24:26.it in the Queen's Speech because we know the day after a no vote if
:24:27. > :24:29.there is one, they will forget all about it and Scotland will continue
:24:30. > :24:40.to be treated with contempt by Westminster. Alex Salmond was asked
:24:41. > :24:44.repeatedly about what Plan B was on the currency unit. He did not answer
:24:45. > :24:50.that. Will we get an answer? We have gone into this campaign arguing what
:24:51. > :24:57.is best for Scotland. What we are saying is this is right for Scotland
:24:58. > :25:00.and in terms of the currency it is absolutely right for England. Look
:25:01. > :25:05.at the implications if there is no currency union for the rest of the
:25:06. > :25:09.UK economy. It would be a disaster. UK has not had a trade surplus the
:25:10. > :25:14.past 30 years. Margaret Thatcher was Prime Minister the last time that
:25:15. > :25:20.happened. If you take out Scotland's massive surplus on trade
:25:21. > :25:25.with the rest of the world... Unemployment and all the rest will
:25:26. > :25:32.go through the roof. It is not enough. You cannot keep talking over
:25:33. > :25:36.the fact, you cannot avoid the fact that voters in Scotland want you to
:25:37. > :25:47.tell us what is your Plan B. Alex Salmond said it tonight, what are
:25:48. > :25:57.those plans? We would love to know the answer. Tell us now. One is a
:25:58. > :26:02.separate currency, which would not be in the best interests of
:26:03. > :26:08.Scotland. Another would be stilled to use the pound but not have a
:26:09. > :26:11.currency union. The best option by far for Scotland and England is the
:26:12. > :26:15.one that we have spelt out, a currency union. The fact of life is
:26:16. > :26:22.a Cabinet minister has given the game away and admitted that they
:26:23. > :26:36.would agree to it the day after a yes vote. It has been a disaster for
:26:37. > :26:45.Scotland, Alistair Darling almost brought Britain to the brink of
:26:46. > :26:50.bankruptcy when he was Chancellor. We have six more weeks to explore
:26:51. > :27:00.all of this. And we can go now to James Cook. He is now with
:27:01. > :27:04.first-time voters. Let's go straight to our panel.
:27:05. > :27:09.Jamie, first of all, an undecided voter, what did you make of it? I
:27:10. > :27:17.found it very confusing at times, but very valid points from both
:27:18. > :27:21.sides. As Max has said in the past, it probably pushed undecided voters
:27:22. > :27:27.further undecided. And it has pushed you in that way, not help you make
:27:28. > :27:31.up your mind? Definitely not. You are a no voter yourself, but you
:27:32. > :27:35.think it's not winning people over either way? In terms of the debate
:27:36. > :27:40.itself, Alistair Darling seemed to come out on top. But that doesn't
:27:41. > :27:45.really matter in this case, what matters is the undecided, the people
:27:46. > :27:51.that they need to convince, that is what matters, what they think.
:27:52. > :27:55.Neither of them talked about their vision for Scotland, and I think it
:27:56. > :28:01.will confuse a lot of the undecided. You are a yes supporter, but a lot
:28:02. > :28:07.of people seem to think you didn't see your man do too well? I think he
:28:08. > :28:11.could have stood his ground more. His points were valid, you just
:28:12. > :28:15.needed to justify them more fully to win people over to his side.
:28:16. > :28:20.Briefly, could you bear another one of those? I would like to, but with
:28:21. > :28:26.more structure. It would be good to have another one to confirm those
:28:27. > :28:29.points of view. What about you? I would definitely want to see another
:28:30. > :28:34.one, but a lot more structured, perhaps a mute button on some of the
:28:35. > :28:38.microphones! What about you? You probably really want another one to
:28:39. > :28:47.make up your mind? Definitely, another debate would help the
:28:48. > :28:51.undecided voters. Thank you for your views. I spoke to Alistair Darling
:28:52. > :28:55.as he left, he was saying that he thoroughly enjoyed it. I said, are
:28:56. > :29:01.you the winner? You said, that is for the viewers to decide. I spoke
:29:02. > :29:04.to Alex Salmond, he was characteristically blunt in his
:29:05. > :29:08.response. He said, look at this poll in the Guardian, it is putting us in
:29:09. > :29:18.a better position than when I went in. He was characteristically
:29:19. > :29:23.claiming victory. But I think the Alistair Darling side is happier. It
:29:24. > :29:31.was heated, and sometimes quite nasty, not the debate, but the cyber
:29:32. > :29:34.battle that was going on. Suzanne Allan has been sitting
:29:35. > :29:41.across the social media scrum. It was a hotly anticipated event, lots
:29:42. > :29:44.of tweets about the atmosphere. Here is a flavour of the chatter. This is
:29:45. > :29:53.summed up a lot of the feeling. No surprise that both campaigns
:29:54. > :30:01.thought their respective leaders were the top dog.
:30:02. > :30:47.Put a sizing the Better Together leader... -- criticising.
:30:48. > :30:57.Surely not! For some final analysis, we have got two guests who are
:30:58. > :31:01.authors, commentators and former political advisers, Alex Bell until
:31:02. > :31:07.last year headed up Alex Salmond's policy unit, David Torrance was a
:31:08. > :31:12.Paul -- Parliamentary aide at the House of Commons. Alex, as he was
:31:13. > :31:19.going into this, what will Alex Salmond have had ringing in his head
:31:20. > :31:23.that he had to do tonight? Probably something different to what he
:31:24. > :31:26.delivered. He had to appeal to the undecided voters. I think what we
:31:27. > :31:31.got was a rehearsal of the campaign to date. I think he might look back
:31:32. > :31:34.in the morning and think you slightly wasted some prime airtime.
:31:35. > :31:42.He was rehashing some of the things which have gone wrong in Project
:31:43. > :31:45.Fear. No doubt that is interesting to people in the media. But that is
:31:46. > :31:48.prime time, when I think he should have been undermining the case for
:31:49. > :31:52.the UK, trying to put Alistair Darling on a hot spot by saying,
:31:53. > :31:59.look, you have been in charge of the UK, you still can't deliver social
:32:00. > :32:03.justice, what is your problem with Scotland delivering social justice
:32:04. > :32:08.by itself? I'm not convinced anybody will have changed their mind. I
:32:09. > :32:12.think that is what they have to do. Will Alistair Darling be kicking
:32:13. > :32:16.himself that he didn't put forward a better case for further devolution
:32:17. > :32:20.after a no vote? I think so. It's quite obvious from where I am
:32:21. > :32:23.sitting that, initially at least, Alistair Darling was painfully
:32:24. > :32:27.nervous and it really impacted on the rest of his performance, which
:32:28. > :32:33.was not strong, initially. He only came to live under
:32:34. > :32:37.cross-examination, when he got stuck in on the European Union and
:32:38. > :32:41.recovered confidence. He didn't miss a trick. Apart from a cursory
:32:42. > :32:44.reference to more powers, which he did not sound at all enthusiastic
:32:45. > :32:49.about, there was nothing positive, nothing about the opportunities of
:32:50. > :32:53.Scotland staying in the UK. I suspect he'll put that right in the
:32:54. > :32:58.next debate, as Alex Salmond will put right his deficiencies earlier
:32:59. > :33:01.this evening. Did Alex Salmond come across as a likeable man? That is
:33:02. > :33:05.one of the things he was trying to work on. Did he come across as a
:33:06. > :33:14.statesman who can persuade undecided voters he can lead them into a new
:33:15. > :33:17.country? We certainly didn't see the shouting Alex Salmond that we see at
:33:18. > :33:23.First Minister's questions. He came across really well. At times he had
:33:24. > :33:26.this neat trick of stepping away from the podium, becoming more
:33:27. > :33:34.intimate and engaging directly with the audience, which I thought worked
:33:35. > :33:38.well. Alex -- Alistair Darling seemed quite stiff. We got the
:33:39. > :33:43.fluffy and cuddly Alex Salmond. We know why, the other persona does not
:33:44. > :33:48.work with female voters and undecided voters. If Alistair
:33:49. > :33:51.Darling was a little dry, boring might be unfair, is that what he was
:33:52. > :34:03.there to do? Some people said his job was to or people for Britain.
:34:04. > :34:06.He's not going to get a job as a children's entertainer. But he did
:34:07. > :34:10.enough. I think the No Campaign will be thinking, fine, we were not
:34:11. > :34:14.cross-examined on Alistair Darling's own failures in office, on
:34:15. > :34:19.the failure to deliver social justice, on the fact that the UK
:34:20. > :34:24.can't afford pensions or the NHS. In some cases, Alistair Darling must be
:34:25. > :34:32.going home thinking, well, I'd ducked a punch. What Alex Salmond
:34:33. > :34:38.needs to do is reconnect with his passion, the fundamental reason why
:34:39. > :34:42.all this has been worth it. Why have we spent 30 years getting to this
:34:43. > :34:46.point? Tell us again. It Alex Salmond that needs a game changer.
:34:47. > :34:49.If we look at the polls, there was another poll released just before
:34:50. > :34:55.the debate, roughly in the same place they have been for quite some
:34:56. > :35:00.time, 42% yes, 58% no, when you take out the undecided voters. You'll
:35:01. > :35:02.have to do more than he did tonight? Edit of caution on that, Yes
:35:03. > :35:08.Campaign are convinced they are doing really well in inner cities.
:35:09. > :35:13.They are convinced they are winning the ardent underground. They may not
:35:14. > :35:18.feel there needs to be this game changer. -- winning on the ground.
:35:19. > :35:22.From January to May, everybody said they needed a game changer, and on
:35:23. > :35:26.the night of the election they revealed us, they won. Did we get a
:35:27. > :35:32.preview of the next six weeks? Is this what we are going to be talking
:35:33. > :35:36.about until September? Yes, the debate this evening was going over
:35:37. > :35:40.the ground of the campaign so far. A greatest hits, highlights of the
:35:41. > :35:44.referendum campaign from the past two years. It's quite difficult to
:35:45. > :35:48.come up with new arguments for or against the union, or dazzling new
:35:49. > :35:54.lines. That is why there were not any this evening. More of the same
:35:55. > :35:58.over the next six weeks. I suspect an alteration and then more of the
:35:59. > :36:02.same in the next debate. If it is more of the same, will undecided
:36:03. > :36:05.voters get any help making up their mind and will people be motivated to
:36:06. > :36:11.vote? It has been two years of listening to more of the same. I
:36:12. > :36:14.fear for the undecided, I don't think there will be in a better
:36:15. > :36:19.place after this evening or the next few weeks. What would you advise
:36:20. > :36:23.them to do if they wanted to make up their mind? Bear in mind you are not
:36:24. > :36:27.voting for these two men, you are voting for the future of your
:36:28. > :36:30.society. You have to weigh up if it is best managed in the current state
:36:31. > :36:35.what you think you and your compatriots can do a better job.
:36:36. > :36:40.There will be no clear yes no, there is no black and white in life. You
:36:41. > :36:44.have to take your hunch and I hope that is what they do. That is all
:36:45. > :36:48.from us tonight, thank you for watching. We will be back at the
:36:49. > :36:50.same time tomorrow night, so I hope you join me then.