:00:00. > :00:07.Moving Trident out of Scotland - it can be done.
:00:08. > :00:27.But it could take more than a decade.
:00:28. > :00:30.How long would it take to get rid of nuclear weapons
:00:31. > :00:34.A new report says it is perfectly possible to move the Trident
:00:35. > :00:39.But the process could take as long as 12 years.
:00:40. > :00:41.And how will socialists vote in September?
:00:42. > :00:43.I'll be talking to two left wing stalwarts,
:00:44. > :00:45.Tommy Sheridan and Owen Jones about their very different views
:00:46. > :00:49.How will socialists vote in September?
:00:50. > :00:51.To create a new, left leaning country or to maintain
:00:52. > :00:58.solidarity with their brothers and sisters in the rest of the UK?
:00:59. > :01:02.And to what extent did dreams of an island paradise lead to the act of
:01:03. > :01:14.It would be possible for the UK to keep its nuclear weapons
:01:15. > :01:17.by moving them out of Scotland in the event of independence.
:01:18. > :01:19.A report published today by the respected think tank, The
:01:20. > :01:21.Royal United Services Institute, says relocating Trident would take
:01:22. > :01:24.considerably longer than the four year target set by the SNP.
:01:25. > :01:26.But it also says the process would probably cost far
:01:27. > :01:29.less than the tens of billions of pounds previously predicted.
:01:30. > :01:37.Aileen Clarke has been studying the report.
:01:38. > :01:46.The Faslane naval base. It is here that the Trident submarines are. But
:01:47. > :01:52.for how much longer? Scottish Government says that in the event of
:01:53. > :01:58.a Yes vote they want the nuclear deterrent out of Scotland within six
:01:59. > :02:06.years. This report says it would take more than a decade. The report
:02:07. > :02:13.also says it would cost less than has been previously thought. It says
:02:14. > :02:19.?3 billion should be the cost of moving the submarines to Devonport
:02:20. > :02:24.and building a secure and safe place to store the missiles.
:02:25. > :02:31.However the Scottish Government still see a safe and speedy removal
:02:32. > :02:35.is a priority. The timeline we have set out as the first term of an
:02:36. > :02:39.independent Scottish Parliament. It has got to be done safely and we
:02:40. > :02:49.have always stressed that, but speed is also of the essence. The detail
:02:50. > :02:53.will be a matter of negotiation. On the other side of the debate, the
:02:54. > :02:58.report has been welcomed as illuminating. We have experts
:02:59. > :03:04.contradicting what is the First Minister says. The experts are
:03:05. > :03:09.telling us what the facts are. In addition to that, this suggestion
:03:10. > :03:56.that that is a moral case for removing
:03:57. > :04:01.a non-nuclear future would be like. A lot of people would prefer that to
:04:02. > :04:10.be here. Does that include yourself? Yes. Politicians promise a lot.
:04:11. > :05:21.Knowing what is beer just now, we deal with it well.
:05:22. > :05:27.Knowing what is beer just now, we Devonport. That is already a base
:05:28. > :05:31.for nuclear powered submarines. But you would need to do significant
:05:32. > :05:37.work. You would have to move Royal Navy surface ships out of fear. We
:05:38. > :05:45.estimate that between five and seven years make do it for that particular
:05:46. > :05:48.base. The most difficult task would be replacing the weapons handling
:05:49. > :05:57.facility where you are taking weapons on and off submarines. You
:05:58. > :06:01.would have two essentially build a greenfield site somewhere in England
:06:02. > :06:10.and Wales. The site which was identified as possible for that
:06:11. > :06:23.purpose in the 1960s was near Falmouth. That is still relatively
:06:24. > :06:27.undeveloped. It might do the trick. If anybody suggests that getting rid
:06:28. > :06:31.of Trident from Scotland means that the UK would be left without a
:06:32. > :06:36.nuclear deterrent, that is not true? It depends on the time scale.
:06:37. > :06:43.If the Scottish Government insisted on its four-year timescale then I
:06:44. > :06:48.don't believe it is possible to construct alternative facilities in
:06:49. > :06:55.England and Wales. But if longer was aligned, if for example new bases
:06:56. > :07:02.were required at the time that the current submarines are due to be
:07:03. > :07:07.replaced, then that timescale, 12 years, would make it possible.
:07:08. > :07:13.Nothing is asserted without doing more detailed work. The Scottish
:07:14. > :07:19.Government says that getting rid of Trident by Twenty20 is still a
:07:20. > :07:25.perfectly reasonable timescale. You think it is reasonable to get rid of
:07:26. > :07:33.Trident by that time, but not find a replacement base? It depends what
:07:34. > :07:40.the criteria is. In terms of securing a safe base in the rest of
:07:41. > :07:43.the UK from which the UK could continue to operate Trident that
:07:44. > :07:50.wish to do so, for years is not enough time. We have been talking
:07:51. > :07:53.about trying to find a new home for Trident nuclear submarines. Is that
:07:54. > :07:58.the only option for a UK nuclear deterrent? There are other possible
:07:59. > :08:05.nuclear delivery systems. You could have warheads based on aircraft. You
:08:06. > :08:10.could have ground-based ballistic missiles. But that is not an
:08:11. > :08:16.alternative which is as satisfactory for the UK. Many of the alternatives
:08:17. > :08:22.cost even more money. In the recent review by the Government the option
:08:23. > :08:31.favoured by the Liberal Democrats cruise missiles, were also based on
:08:32. > :08:42.submarines. That would not help in this scenario. There is not a viable
:08:43. > :08:47.option. But you could simply have a freefall bomb based on earlier
:08:48. > :08:49.draft. That would be vulnerable to attack and I do not think it'd be a
:08:50. > :09:07.credible deterrent. There are plenty of voices who claim
:09:08. > :09:09.that independence could lead to a rebirth of the left in Scottish
:09:10. > :09:12.politics, while others think nationalism is a distraction
:09:13. > :09:15.from the issues that really matter. We've got two
:09:16. > :09:17.of the most prominent voices on the radical left in the studio tonight -
:09:18. > :09:20.Tommy Sheridan and Owen Jones. Before we talk about
:09:21. > :09:22.whether the referendum will define the future of the left in Scotland,
:09:23. > :09:28.let's take a quick look Scotland has always had a strong
:09:29. > :09:33.tradition of left-wing politics. The earliest roots of universal health
:09:34. > :09:37.care can be traced back to the Highlands before the division of the
:09:38. > :09:46.NHS. In the 1970s workers in the Clyde shipyards resisted calls. --
:09:47. > :09:54.resisted calls. There will be no vandalism. There will be no
:09:55. > :09:58.drinking. The Thatcher years of the 1980s
:09:59. > :10:02.galvanised the left in Scotland. Never more so than during the poll
:10:03. > :10:09.tax protest where Tommy Sheridan first made his name. 520,000
:10:10. > :10:16.non-payers of the poll tax in Strathclyde alone. There has always
:10:17. > :10:21.been disagreement. People are deeply sceptical about Alex Salmond and the
:10:22. > :10:28.politics he represents. With the referendum looming, has the question
:10:29. > :10:35.of the constitutional future split the Socialist voice? The Yes
:10:36. > :10:42.campaign is not asking you to leave your party. It offers you the chance
:10:43. > :10:48.to get your party back. But the (them has raised questions over the
:10:49. > :10:55.future of those on the left, whether inside or outside the UK.
:10:56. > :10:57.With me now are the former MSP, Tommy Sheridan, now co-convenor
:10:58. > :11:00.of Solidarity and Owen Jones, whose new book, The Establishment,
:11:01. > :11:10.Tommy Sheridan, you are campaigning for a Yes vote. If Scotland became
:11:11. > :11:16.independent it would mean that the UK would be less likely to be able
:11:17. > :11:20.to elect a left-leaning Government. There have only been two
:11:21. > :11:30.left-leaning governments since 1945 that have relied on Scottish votes.
:11:31. > :11:35.This is about a democratic question. It is about Scotland's's right to
:11:36. > :11:40.exist as a small nation, and a left of centre nation that would invest
:11:41. > :11:47.in people, invest in hospitals, schools, doctors and nurses. Not on
:11:48. > :11:52.nuclear weapons that are immoral. It would keep the health service
:11:53. > :11:56.public. Get rid of nuclear weapons. Introduce a living wage. All of the
:11:57. > :12:04.things that the West have fought for four years and it is within our
:12:05. > :12:09.grasp in Scotland. # that the left. That this by myself and thousands of
:12:10. > :12:16.others are doing public meetings to promote hope over fear. This year
:12:17. > :12:24.campaign wants us to stick with the UK, with food banks, with any
:12:25. > :12:27.quality. I see let us go for something new and brighter. That is
:12:28. > :12:37.what an independent Scotland offers. That size like a future that you
:12:38. > :12:43.would enjoy. It is not for me, based in London, to lecture tours in
:12:44. > :12:52.Scotland how to vote. I am here to express solidarity with all those
:12:53. > :12:57.fighting for a society run in the interests of working people, not the
:12:58. > :13:03.tax dodgers, not the financiers, not the poverty paying bosses. Myself
:13:04. > :13:17.and Tommy Sheridan have a shared memory which will surprise viewers.
:13:18. > :13:21.In 1990I looked at Falkirk. Tens of thousands of Scots took to the
:13:22. > :13:27.streets in a show of defiance and solidarity. On the same day they
:13:28. > :13:33.marched in London. It ended in a different fashion. But that is part
:13:34. > :13:38.of a tradition. We hear of the tradition of aristocracy. There is
:13:39. > :13:41.another condition of Scottish, English and Welsh workers united
:13:42. > :13:46.together. In that case they did not just get rid of the poll tax, the
:13:47. > :13:51.boot of Margaret Thatcher out of number ten. There is this tradition,
:13:52. > :14:07.the chartists, the suffragettes, the trade Unionists, the struggle of Its
:14:08. > :14:12.It would be a beacon to the rest of the UK not? It would encourage
:14:13. > :14:15.change in England, Wales and Northern Ireland? is Scotland's vote
:14:16. > :14:19.for independence I will cheer it on. But it is one hell of a fight.
:14:20. > :14:23.The sort of Scotland at Tommy he is fighting for is not the Scotland and
:14:24. > :14:29.visage by Brian Souter who swiftly transferred the money he is paying
:14:30. > :14:38.for the independence movement to a the Stagecoach boss? absolutely.
:14:39. > :14:42.Summary was the rights of me as a gay man stopped, but somebody. The
:14:43. > :14:47.skull he supports. But for me, the point you made about not having a
:14:48. > :14:50.Tory Government, because I do not believe in electoral colonialism,
:14:51. > :14:53.let's import the Scots to stop the English vote in the wrong way. The
:14:54. > :14:57.Tories are in decline. They could not win the last election when
:14:58. > :15:01.Gordon Brown was slightly less popular than cholera. 36% of the
:15:02. > :15:04.vote they got. Every time they have won an election since 1955 it has
:15:05. > :15:09.been a lower share than the time before. The Scottish, Welsh and
:15:10. > :15:14.English left together can finish this lot off and build a united
:15:15. > :15:17.movement, building on the traditions of our ancestors on whose shoulders
:15:18. > :15:22.we stand united in the traditions. We can do that and we will. Is
:15:23. > :15:30.Scotland is a separate country, you won't be able to show in that
:15:31. > :15:32.fight? That's nonsense, Sarah. If he was living in school and I'm
:15:33. > :15:36.confident he will be with me. He will be campaigning with me because
:15:37. > :15:40.it is right, it is the right thing to do. Not just on a democratic
:15:41. > :15:46.point of view, but from the left of centre point of view. Solidarity is
:15:47. > :15:49.not about borders. I support Cuba, I support Venezuela, we support
:15:50. > :15:52.Palestine. An independent Scotland I am confident will be one of the
:15:53. > :15:57.first countries in the world to expel the Israeli ambassador and
:15:58. > :16:02.start I cutting and sanctioning Israel. Independent Scotland will be
:16:03. > :16:07.a very progressive, very, very supportive country. The point that
:16:08. > :16:12.we have to take up and being aware agree with most things, I'm very
:16:13. > :16:19.fond of him, but what I would say is this: After 13 years of Labour in
:16:20. > :16:24.power, we had a more divided country, we have more workers laid
:16:25. > :16:27.low, we had more of the welfare, people not paying their taxes.
:16:28. > :16:31.People are given up on that project. They are now looking for a
:16:32. > :16:34.democratic, independent Scotland. It is not suitable to aggravation they
:16:35. > :16:40.are looking for, it is the vision of the John Maclean's they are looking
:16:41. > :16:44.for. Won be most understand why somebody in toy's position supports
:16:45. > :16:50.independence? absolutely. A lot of my political bedfellows have so much
:16:51. > :16:54.support and solidarity are campaigning for years. The point I'm
:16:55. > :16:57.making is that sense of a shocker to those of a shocker to those the idea
:16:58. > :17:01.that once independence happens we will be free of the shackles of
:17:02. > :17:05.neoliberalism. The SNP are a dominant force and they want to
:17:06. > :17:09.enter into a race to the bottom with England who can slash taxes on
:17:10. > :17:12.business most. Can the Scotland Tommy support be built if
:17:13. > :17:17.independence happens? It's possible, but it will be one hell of a fight.
:17:18. > :17:21.And if we look at the polls, English Scots and Welsh are like supports
:17:22. > :17:25.public ownership, progressive taxation, re-nationalise utilities.
:17:26. > :17:28.Those are the mainstream of the people and together we can build on
:17:29. > :17:32.the struggles of our ancestors because we won before and we can win
:17:33. > :17:35.again. Won Owen Jones, Tommy Sheridan, thank you.
:17:36. > :17:37.As the prospect of dissolving the union with England stands before us,
:17:38. > :17:41.Jonathan has been looking at how we came together in the first place.
:17:42. > :17:43.Yes - how much did Scotland's failed venture into colonialism
:17:44. > :17:48.The Darien project was hatched in the late 17th Century.
:17:49. > :17:52.A plan to establish a Scottish trading centre in Central America,
:17:53. > :17:54.it turned out to be a complete disaster in economic
:17:55. > :17:59.But did it also contribute to the decision to unite Scotland
:18:00. > :18:22.Leith docks. Like all of Scotland it's changed drastically in the past
:18:23. > :18:25.three centuries. It was in 1698 that the first ships set sail from it to
:18:26. > :18:29.establish a Scottish colony in modern-day Panama on the Gulf of
:18:30. > :18:36.Darien. It will be called new Caledonia. Explorers went in search
:18:37. > :18:43.of a gateway between Atlantic and Pacific. What they found was
:18:44. > :18:46.hardship and disease. It was an ambitious effort to establish
:18:47. > :18:53.Scotland as a world trading power. One fascinates historian Douglas
:18:54. > :18:57.Watts. Darien was announced by the company Scotland to emulated the
:18:58. > :19:01.success of the East India company who had made huge profits out of
:19:02. > :19:06.trade in the East Indies. They wanted West amateur colony at
:19:07. > :19:10.Darien, near the Colombian border. That would allow them to cut the
:19:11. > :19:15.travel time down to the East Indies and create a profitable trade. It
:19:16. > :19:19.was funded by the general public, from wealthy nobles to those of
:19:20. > :19:24.modest means. Huge sums of money were invested in the hope of a
:19:25. > :19:27.lucrative return. This rather Gothic looking artefacts looks like
:19:28. > :19:31.something out of Lord of the rings game of phones. But it is the Darien
:19:32. > :19:36.chest. It is kept the Abbey National Museum of Scotland. This is where
:19:37. > :19:40.literally a court of Scotland's National capital was put to finance
:19:41. > :19:46.the ill-fated Darien Scheme. The scheme failed at least 1500 lives
:19:47. > :19:50.were lost and financial desperation followed. Scots began to apportion
:19:51. > :19:56.blame. The extended England play a part in the downfall of Darien? the
:19:57. > :20:00.main reason for the failure was mismanagement by the directors. They
:20:01. > :20:07.should have anticipated English opposition. There was clearly
:20:08. > :20:11.opposition from England, first of all in the attempt to keep money in
:20:12. > :20:15.London, which was initially successful. It was quashed by the
:20:16. > :20:19.English East India Company. Then buy an attempt at almost on -- start the
:20:20. > :20:27.colony out of the Caribbean. This angered the Scots and they shed king
:20:28. > :20:34.with the English. That the start of the colony. the embroidery displays
:20:35. > :20:37.our country's story from the ice age to the present day. One panel
:20:38. > :20:44.devotes itself entirely to the Darien Scheme. The next panel, the
:20:45. > :20:48.union of 1707. At the centre of the union treaty was a huge bailout fund
:20:49. > :20:51.for the investors in the Darien Scheme who lost every penny. They
:20:52. > :20:56.did not expect to get any money back, but a few years later, they
:20:57. > :21:00.were given just all their money back, but interest payments in
:21:01. > :21:08.addition. So the equivalent, which is the large lump sum is a key
:21:09. > :21:13.Salina in persuading Scots to vote for the union of the small number of
:21:14. > :21:23.Scots who had devoted that a vote to ratify the treaty in 1707. Vast
:21:24. > :21:26.majority of Scots were against it. the Darien Scheme was given it a
:21:27. > :21:34.game changer that forged the union of 1707. The Uni we decided to
:21:35. > :21:39.continue with or reject next month. -- the union we will decide whether
:21:40. > :21:41.to continue with or reject, next month.
:21:42. > :21:43.Joining us now to look at today's top stories are
:21:44. > :21:46.Roxanne Soroashian of the Sunday Herald and Andrew Picken, Political
:21:47. > :22:26.there. There are new voices, it's time to hit reset and no matter what
:22:27. > :22:32.the outcome of the vote on September 18, we could have quite an exciting
:22:33. > :22:35.political landscape. We don't have much hard left in Scottish
:22:36. > :22:40.Parliament at the moment, although Tommy Sheridan and his colleagues
:22:41. > :22:43.held seats there previously. Our baby over optimistic thinking and
:22:44. > :22:46.independent Scotland Moby the rebirth of radical left-wing
:22:47. > :22:51.politics? Would be a chance to get a foothold? I think they have been
:22:52. > :22:55.energised by the fact they are campaigning for something instead of
:22:56. > :23:03.against something, ie poll-tax or coalition cuts. I have my doubts in
:23:04. > :23:08.terms of the appetite for their Scotland because it still has cohort
:23:09. > :23:12.of small C conservatives. There are a million plus right-leaning
:23:13. > :23:17.newspapers sold in Scotland every week. The big C conservatives got
:23:18. > :23:25.500,000 votes are the last election, that is still a big appetite. Look
:23:26. > :23:31.how many left politicians are in Holyrood. That probably did you
:23:32. > :23:34.answer. Lets change subject. Let's talk police and guns. The Scottish
:23:35. > :23:40.police authority are saying they are carrying out a review after officers
:23:41. > :23:43.were carrying guns while on fairly routine patrols it seems, without
:23:44. > :23:46.very much public discussion. A feeling, perhaps, that the
:23:47. > :23:54.authorities have been dragging their heels slightly on this issue. In the
:23:55. > :24:01.Scotsman today it said the Scottish authority to examine the use of
:24:02. > :24:05.armed police officers. Have the police authority been dragging their
:24:06. > :24:09.heels? yes. It is an issue that has been kicking around for a couple of
:24:10. > :24:14.months and as -- there is a general unease. It is the two police
:24:15. > :24:20.Scotland watchdogs who are taking this forward and they should have
:24:21. > :24:23.acted sooner. The reports will not be delivered until December, so in
:24:24. > :24:31.terms of action that will follow into 2015. It is a long time. How
:24:32. > :24:38.long -- how likely is this move to ease concerns? Probably the
:24:39. > :24:44.consultation is long overdue and the Scottish public are understandably
:24:45. > :24:47.alarmed when they see that police on the beats going about with guns. It
:24:48. > :24:54.is something that is quite alien to us as a nation. I mean, is the first
:24:55. > :24:59.thing you notice when you fly abroad. At the airport and there are
:25:00. > :25:04.cops with big guns and you think, we are not in Scotland anymore. It is
:25:05. > :25:08.important for the public to have a proper, proper consultation on this.
:25:09. > :25:12.That this public unease about this. But it has taken a long time for the
:25:13. > :25:14.politicians to address it. It. Is this because everything has been put
:25:15. > :25:21.on hold as we discussed the referendum? I think there is an
:25:22. > :25:27.element of that, yes. Certain things are slipping under the radar. And
:25:28. > :25:33.they shouldn't be. Let us move on to the fast moving Iraq crisis. The
:25:34. > :25:40.prime Minister this evening said he is going to step aside. Now please
:25:41. > :25:46.the Americans no end. And I guess, it is a small step, but a crucial
:25:47. > :25:51.one in try to stabilise the situation is that how you see? yes.
:25:52. > :25:57.Both parties have made clear they are not happy with him. So,
:25:58. > :26:02.hopefully, this will push us to mop -- towards more stability. As we so
:26:03. > :26:03.the crisis started, the speed with which the fighters went across the
:26:04. > :26:49.country