:00:00. > :00:00.The NHS is back at the centre of the referendum debate tonight,
:00:07. > :00:28.as secret documents seen by the BBC give the arguments a new twist.
:00:29. > :00:31.Gordon Brown says the SNP are lying about the NHS,
:00:32. > :00:33.while the SNP say they have protected the
:00:34. > :00:38.on the day leaked documents suggest there is a large hole
:00:39. > :00:41.in the Scottish Government's spending plans.
:00:42. > :00:44.Also, The three UK party leaders have signed a vow pledging more
:00:45. > :00:50.They are also promising to protect the Barnett formula as a means
:00:51. > :00:52.of deciding how much money Scotland gets.
:00:53. > :01:02.But Lord Barnett himself says its time the formula was scrapped.
:01:03. > :01:06.That's what every political party always promises the voters.
:01:07. > :01:09.But never has the future of health services,
:01:10. > :01:12.how they are paid for and how they are delivered, been the subject
:01:13. > :01:18.Gordon Brown today accused the SNP of lying about the NHS,
:01:19. > :01:22.while the Yes campaign says it will be best protected if Scotland has
:01:23. > :01:28.But the row comes on the same day that the BBC has
:01:29. > :01:31.seen leaked documents that suggest there is a multi-million-pound hole
:01:32. > :01:34.in the SNP government's spending plans for the NHS.
:01:35. > :01:38.Here is our health correspondent Eleanor Bradford.
:01:39. > :01:41.This confidential document was intended only for the eyes of NHS
:01:42. > :01:43.chief executives and civil servants, and the language is stark.
:01:44. > :01:47.It suggests plans to manage the pressure
:01:48. > :01:50.on the NHS are being undermined by the Scottish government,
:01:51. > :01:54.that policy commitments made by the SNP are "not fully funded" and that
:01:55. > :01:57.some are "directly in conflict" with plans to transform care.
:01:58. > :02:00.The result, according to this document, is a
:02:01. > :02:06.funding gap of ?400-450 million over the next two years, representing
:02:07. > :02:12.Opposition MPs have described the revelations as extraordinary,
:02:13. > :02:29.Here is the Scottish National party planning to cut health service
:02:30. > :02:32.spending in Scotland by 450 million, not telling us about it and denying
:02:33. > :02:35.they have the power to do anything about it and trying to tell people
:02:36. > :02:41.that they are trying to save the NHS. The truth is they have now
:02:42. > :02:44.started to use the NHS as a battering ram for independence and
:02:45. > :02:48.So, politics aside for a moment, what would a funding gap mean
:02:49. > :02:52.Well, the paper says "The status quo is no longer an option".
:02:53. > :02:55.And that "radical and urgent decisions need to be made".
:02:56. > :02:57.In layman's terms, that could mean closure of some services,
:02:58. > :03:01.including possibly A - a measure the SNP vowed to stop when it was
:03:02. > :03:08.elected in 2007, reversing plans to close Monklands and Ayr hospitals.
:03:09. > :03:11.So is that the kind of hard choice that will be back
:03:12. > :03:16.Speaking to BBC Scotland tonight, Alex Salmond said they aren't
:03:17. > :03:23.cutbacks but efficiency savings made necessary by Westminster.
:03:24. > :03:30.All that money from their savings is reinvested in the health budget,
:03:31. > :03:33.which is why it is increasing in real terms and will continue to do
:03:34. > :03:38.so across this year and next year and the year after in terms of the
:03:39. > :03:43.front line budget. What I'm pointing out is if you look at the bulk of
:03:44. > :03:46.these cost pressures, they are changes to pensions from
:03:47. > :03:52.Westminster, changes to national insurance from Westminster. Is it
:03:53. > :03:57.really a case of efficiency savings?
:03:58. > :04:01.It is sometimes difficult to make your way through the claim and
:04:02. > :04:06.counterclaim. This document comes from the top and contains dramatic
:04:07. > :04:10.language not normally seen in the boardroom and stark warnings and
:04:11. > :04:16.criticises government policy. To me, that is not just business as usual
:04:17. > :04:21.at normal efficiency savings. It can't be a coincidence that you
:04:22. > :04:28.got sight of these papers just before the referendum.
:04:29. > :04:35.The whistle-blower who passed these to said they were frustrated by the
:04:36. > :04:41.yes campaign saying that cuts to the NHS were due to Westminster. I have
:04:42. > :04:50.been contacted by many doctors today on both sides of the debate all
:04:51. > :04:54.concerned about the NHS. We only have one full day of campaigning
:04:55. > :04:55.left and many people will have already made up their minds.
:04:56. > :04:58.In the studio we have the Cabinet Secretary for Health
:04:59. > :05:00.and Wellbeing, Alex Neil, and the Scottish Labour Spokesperson
:05:01. > :05:11.Thank you for coming in. The language in this document doesn't
:05:12. > :05:18.sound like a case of efficiency savings. Gordon Brown is talking
:05:19. > :05:22.rubbish in a whole range of things. He started the privatisation of the
:05:23. > :05:30.NHS in England. It is very relevant indeed. He is talking mince. He says
:05:31. > :05:34.this is secret. There is nothing secretive. When we approved the
:05:35. > :05:39.budget in February, every health board put this information on their
:05:40. > :05:43.websites. If Gordon Brown had known that, he could've gone and seen that
:05:44. > :05:49.the information has been there months. These are not cost-cutting,
:05:50. > :05:52.these are efficiency savings being reinvested in the health service and
:05:53. > :05:58.the difference between us and south of the border is where we get
:05:59. > :06:04.efficiency savings, we reinvest in the NHS. What Labour want us to do
:06:05. > :06:11.is to take the Tory cuts and tax the Scottish people second time round to
:06:12. > :06:13.make up for it. It's absurd. If it is simply efficiency savings then
:06:14. > :06:16.why are senior health service managers talking about radical and
:06:17. > :06:25.urgent decisions leading to be made? What they are saying is there
:06:26. > :06:27.are a number of challenges facing every National Health Service and
:06:28. > :06:33.reading needs to deal with it and that is why we are going to produce
:06:34. > :06:36.a plan for 2020 all in next year. As the First Minister said, if you take
:06:37. > :06:40.the pension increase, ?100 million of these pressures for example
:06:41. > :06:44.because of the additional pension contributions we are being asked to
:06:45. > :06:49.make for the Westminster government, that is going into the Treasury in
:06:50. > :06:54.London. If we were independent, that money would stay in Scotland for
:06:55. > :07:00.investment in the NHS. The irony is that the extra money we are in force
:07:01. > :07:05.to give in pension contributions isn't going into NHS workers'
:07:06. > :07:13.pensions. It is paying off the deficit that Gordon Brown, Alistair
:07:14. > :07:20.Darling and George Osborne caused. I think that is absolute fantasy. What
:07:21. > :07:23.we see in this week to document is clearly not just to talk about
:07:24. > :07:30.efficiency savings. It looks more like a crisis document to me. We are
:07:31. > :07:33.supposed to listen to him. He misled Parliament over what was happening
:07:34. > :07:41.in his own backyard. He has misled the country by claiming that the NHS
:07:42. > :07:47.will be privatised with a no vote. When was he going to tell us about
:07:48. > :07:52.this? Brady, next week? I wouldn't trust him to open a box of
:07:53. > :07:58.Elastoplast is never mind tell us the truth about the NHS. Gordon
:07:59. > :08:10.Brown outright accused the SNP of lying. They are telling untruths.
:08:11. > :08:16.The NHS was never mentioned in the first years of the campaign. Then
:08:17. > :08:22.suddenly the NHS became the biggest issue. The NHS is now the biggest
:08:23. > :08:28.issue because he has been rumbled big-time on this. Is it not
:08:29. > :08:38.inconvenient that this has been leaked, even if it was for political
:08:39. > :08:45.reasons, right in the middle of the NHS becoming the biggest thing in
:08:46. > :08:53.your campaign? Some of these chief executives were people who wanted to
:08:54. > :09:01.shut A departments. Labour were going to shut Monklands. This man
:09:02. > :09:08.tried to get me sacked because I tried to keep up in a mental health
:09:09. > :09:12.unit. I didn't mislead Parliament. Does this not prove that Scotland
:09:13. > :09:21.has full control over the NHS and there is no reason to vote yes? The
:09:22. > :09:26.Scotland act allows Westminster to overrule the Scottish Parliament on
:09:27. > :09:29.anything and it had already has done, for example the waters of the
:09:30. > :09:36.West of Scotland and renewable energy. Consequences of
:09:37. > :09:45.privatisation and charges, they are speaking down south about charging
:09:46. > :09:52.people ?25 for visiting the doctor. If this happens then it means the
:09:53. > :09:58.funding by the NHS under the union goes down. That is a fact of life.
:09:59. > :10:07.If public spending was down and then the amount of money coming to
:10:08. > :10:15.Scotland goes down. If they are procuring in the private sector then
:10:16. > :10:27.it is still money coming into the public. They're privatising to
:10:28. > :10:33.reduce public funding. He is trying to take it away from the substance
:10:34. > :10:40.of what the report is saying. Now we see the consequences in this
:10:41. > :10:47.document. It is his responsibility and he has been caught out. This
:10:48. > :10:56.sounds like a lot of arguments so far, both sides shouting and calling
:10:57. > :11:01.each other liars. Who really should have control of the Scottish NHS? In
:11:02. > :11:10.an independent Scotland we should take the money from getting rid of
:11:11. > :11:16.Trident, ?50 million per year, we could put that into the health
:11:17. > :11:21.service and public services. We could decide exactly how much is
:11:22. > :11:24.spelt an NHS and not rely on a Tory government or a right-wing Labour
:11:25. > :11:31.government such as the one led by Gordon Brown which cut public
:11:32. > :11:34.services to ribbons. People at home should make their minds up based on
:11:35. > :11:40.the facts and that is that we have control over the NHS in Scotland.
:11:41. > :11:43.The problem is that Alec is not taking his responsibilities
:11:44. > :11:47.seriously and he was not going to tell us that up his sleeve he has
:11:48. > :11:51.half a billion of cuts. When was he going to tell us? Desires
:11:52. > :11:56.responsibilities. He has been trying to hide it. Thank you both very
:11:57. > :11:58.much. As soon as the pledge
:11:59. > :12:00.from all three party leaders to guarantee more powers for the
:12:01. > :12:03.Scottish Parliament was published on the front page of the Daily
:12:04. > :12:06.Record it was quickly dismissed by That makes a change from describing
:12:07. > :12:11.Better Together as Project Fear. But does it suggest a note of panic
:12:12. > :12:15.in the Yes camp that a pledge of further devolution, however late
:12:16. > :12:31.in the day, might just be enough to The countdown continues. This is
:12:32. > :12:38.campaigning in a frenzy. And up to the wire. On the day the three main
:12:39. > :12:42.Better Together parties published this. A foul to the people of
:12:43. > :12:47.Scotland to deliver change. They vowed to keep the Barnett formula
:12:48. > :12:52.and guarantee powers to raise revenue. They say categorically that
:12:53. > :12:59.in no vote will deliver faster change. Is it offering no voters a
:13:00. > :13:08.little bit of yes? One of the signatories went to Edinburgh today.
:13:09. > :13:13.Ed Miliband this year. If we're used to about the yes campaign talking
:13:14. > :13:20.about change then it is now the key argument of the no campaign as well.
:13:21. > :13:26.A vote for no is not a vote for no change. It is a clear vote for
:13:27. > :13:31.change and stronger powers for the Scottish parliament. Each party has
:13:32. > :13:41.already set out their vision for more devolution. There is no more
:13:42. > :13:51.talk of the status quo. We need change and we would all over it.
:13:52. > :13:59.More powers to Scotland. Have fans of devo max come out victorious or
:14:00. > :14:02.is this just a bride? Nicola Sturgeon was counting down to the
:14:03. > :14:12.referendum at an engineering firm in Renfrew. Most people in Scotland
:14:13. > :14:16.with that -- would refer to it as an attempted con. There's not a single
:14:17. > :14:22.tangible power mentioned in what they're saying. They're asking
:14:23. > :14:25.people to vote no in return for unspecified powers they did not
:14:26. > :14:31.agree on and politicians south of the border are already saying they
:14:32. > :14:35.would block them. Lord Barnett himself says the Barnett formula
:14:36. > :14:40.should be scrapped. On the other hand it is being seen as a blueprint
:14:41. > :14:47.for the rest of the UK. A great precedent has been set by Scotland
:14:48. > :14:50.in getting clearer powers and I hope we will learn from that not just
:14:51. > :14:57.south of the border but in Wales and Northern Ireland as well. The valve
:14:58. > :15:01.sets out guarantees if Scotland votes no. But can we guarantee that
:15:02. > :15:02.they will deliver? Two old hands
:15:03. > :15:05.at this political game are here - the Labour peer Lord George Foulkes
:15:06. > :15:17.and the SNP's Linda Fabiani. Much is being made of this. Yet the
:15:18. > :15:24.plan still haven't been agreed. They are promising new powers and I doubt
:15:25. > :15:31.very much you can tell me tonight what they are promising. Some of us
:15:32. > :15:48.have argued for some time that we should provide people like Linda,
:15:49. > :15:52.MSP' s with the ability to have fiscal responsibility. They will
:15:53. > :15:55.have to raise the money they spend and they will have the power to do
:15:56. > :15:58.it but they also have the responsibility. I am pleased we have
:15:59. > :16:04.got this pledge from all three party leaders.
:16:05. > :16:12.But they do not agree on how much the Scottish parliament should be
:16:13. > :16:18.allowed to raise. The principle is beer. Everyone is saying that the
:16:19. > :16:24.Scottish parliament should have the power to raise tax. They have had
:16:25. > :16:29.the power for some time to raise income tax by 2p. They could do
:16:30. > :16:33.that. They have never it. Soon able get more powers under the Calman
:16:34. > :16:41.recommendations that have been fermented by Parliament. Now we have
:16:42. > :16:45.got a pledge that they will get even more. They will have more powers to
:16:46. > :16:50.raise the money so that they are responsible for the money they spend
:16:51. > :16:57.and they can no longer blame Westminster and take the credit for
:16:58. > :17:01.the money that they have spent. Are you worried that although it may
:17:02. > :17:04.have come at the last minute the promise of more devolved powers is
:17:05. > :17:12.what some people may have been looking for? I think it is quite
:17:13. > :17:19.obviously a panic measure. When I was chair of the Scotland Bill
:17:20. > :17:25.committee we push for powers beyond what was the. The same three parties
:17:26. > :17:29.that are now promising wonderful things for Scotland systematically
:17:30. > :17:34.refuse to even consider it, including the devolution of welfare
:17:35. > :17:50.powers. It is interesting that George Fuchs is talking about having
:17:51. > :17:54.tax-raising powers -- that George Foulkes. It seems to be a strange
:17:55. > :17:59.way for the Labour Party to be going. Joining up with the Tories
:18:00. > :18:03.and the Lib Dems because they suddenly realise that the people of
:18:04. > :18:08.Scotland can see a better future. They will do anything to try and
:18:09. > :18:12.scupper that. Just because the party leaders have made this pledge does
:18:13. > :18:17.not mean that this will go through Westminster. A lot of Tory MPs have
:18:18. > :18:21.taken flight at what is being promised. One today described it as
:18:22. > :18:25.a bloodbath if David Cameron tried to get this through Westminster. We
:18:26. > :18:31.are used to backbench MPs making these comments. They bought as well.
:18:32. > :18:36.Only if they have voted with the Labour Party. If you get the Labour
:18:37. > :18:41.Party and the Liberal Democrats supporting the Tory Government of
:18:42. > :18:46.course you will get it through. Or after May it will be a Labour
:18:47. > :18:49.Government introducing it. Each Government has pledged to introduce
:18:50. > :18:57.it and will get the support of the other parties. That does sound like
:18:58. > :19:01.a rock solid promise. There will be some movement on devolution. We do
:19:02. > :19:09.not know what that pledge is. They have called it a value rather than a
:19:10. > :19:13.pledge. It does not see what it is. They did not like what the SNP and
:19:14. > :19:21.the Green Party put forward to link the last Scotland Bill. They did not
:19:22. > :19:27.like the 80 of a third question on the ballot paper. The idea that that
:19:28. > :19:36.can be very quickly put through, whatever letters, I think smacks of
:19:37. > :19:42.desperation. Nick Clegg and David Cameron do not have to compromise.
:19:43. > :19:48.They are on the same size. If you look at the Strathclyde proposals
:19:49. > :19:58.and the proposals of the liberal Democrats... I think we will get an
:19:59. > :20:02.Agreement. We have got to get these powers for the Scottish parliament
:20:03. > :20:06.cracker. We will get them better and safer because we will not have this
:20:07. > :20:09.but that they would get with separation. You can get more powers
:20:10. > :20:15.to the Scottish parliament but stay within the United Kingdom, and all
:20:16. > :20:22.the safety and security of staying within the United Kingdom. We know
:20:23. > :20:27.what our currency and defence would be if we stay as part of the United
:20:28. > :20:29.Kingdom. We get more powers to the Scottish Parliament, but the
:20:30. > :20:37.security and safety of the United Kingdom. I know you do not want to
:20:38. > :20:47.contemplate the possibility of a No vote, but with the SNP take part? A
:20:48. > :20:57.pledge that we have always had is to do the best for Scotland. I believe
:20:58. > :21:01.that the people of Scotland will get a bright future if they vote for
:21:02. > :21:06.independence on Thursday. But when these people let us down yet again,
:21:07. > :21:10.and it is not safe and secure if you are telling at a food bank in East
:21:11. > :21:15.Kilbride, it will be the people of Scotland who would hold them to
:21:16. > :21:20.account. Thankfully I think that will not happen. Linda Fabiani says
:21:21. > :21:24.she will join in the devolution process in the event of a No vote.
:21:25. > :21:36.With you do likewise in the event of a Yes vote. #
:21:37. > :21:42.She is a genuine politician. I have said that we always work of what is
:21:43. > :21:49.best for Scotland. Would you join Alex Salmond if it is a Yes vote? I
:21:50. > :21:50.would do everything I can to advance a situation as far as the people of
:21:51. > :22:00.Scotland is concerned. Now let's take a look
:22:01. > :22:13.at how the referendum is headlining The New York Times reports on
:22:14. > :22:18.Westminster 's renewed pledge to grab Scotland extensive new powers
:22:19. > :22:21.if they stay within the union. There is a story on the battle
:22:22. > :22:32.between negative and positive forecasts on the future of Scotland.
:22:33. > :22:34.And our French publication sees it as yet another eccentricity from
:22:35. > :22:39.across the Channel. With me, for the last time, this
:22:40. > :22:43.side of the poll, is the journalist and political commentator for
:22:44. > :22:45.the Sunday Herald, Iain Macwhirter, and the leading human rights lawyer
:22:46. > :23:06.and pro unionist QC, Derek Ogg. To pick up on the vow that has been
:23:07. > :23:16.made, there is a great deal of scepticism about whether Westminster
:23:17. > :23:21.can or will deliver. Whoever the sub editor was who came up with the idea
:23:22. > :23:28.of the vow as a headline should get a medal from Better Together. It
:23:29. > :23:34.implies more than just what the words are. There is a spirit, is
:23:35. > :23:41.sincere promise. If they broke that there would be political mayhem in
:23:42. > :23:48.Scotland. A lot of people would say they could not tolerate that. They
:23:49. > :23:52.have taken a fairly bold step by calling it a vow. It does have some
:23:53. > :24:01.limited to it. I am not sure there is as much scepticism as some may
:24:02. > :24:08.say. I am going to guess that you are sceptical. Yes. There is nothing
:24:09. > :24:14.new in this other than the colour of the newspaper and which it is
:24:15. > :24:23.expressed. Normally when people commits to do something tangible.
:24:24. > :24:32.There is nothing beyond what Gordon Brown was talking about last week
:24:33. > :24:40.which is essentially the proposal of 5p income tax. If they have come up
:24:41. > :24:46.with an idea for a federal constitution which would give
:24:47. > :24:50.Scotland the dominant economic powers, and a new federal
:24:51. > :24:54.arrangement with the other elements of the United Kingdom, but makes
:24:55. > :25:01.have carried some weight. It's did not do that. The excluded federalism
:25:02. > :25:06.from the ballot paper. At the very last minute in a desperate panic
:25:07. > :25:11.move they are seeing that we will give you the earth, sun and stars,
:25:12. > :25:16.but we will not tell you what it is. There is no substance to it. There
:25:17. > :25:37.are some new opinion polls out tonight. The first one is in The
:25:38. > :25:52.Daily Mail. Yes is on 48, No is on 52. Another opinion poll mirrors
:25:53. > :26:04.that. Is it in the bag, Derek Ogg? All the ups and downs of the
:26:05. > :26:08.campaign, yet there is this resilience of 52% showing up. Unless
:26:09. > :26:19.there is something radically wrong with the methodology that every
:26:20. > :26:25.opinion poll is using, that is well within the margin of error. I think
:26:26. > :26:29.the No campaign can feel comfortable. But this should not
:26:30. > :26:40.feel proud of themselves. It has been a shocking campaign in some
:26:41. > :26:50.ways. This has been diffusing kind of Gordon Brown. The opinion polls
:26:51. > :27:00.are very tight. There is not much in it. But they are consistent. The Yes
:27:01. > :27:07.campaign is not disappointed. The fieldwork has been conducted in the
:27:08. > :27:16.last few days when the Prime Minister has said, we will give you
:27:17. > :27:28.anything. It is surprising that it does not further in favour of the No
:27:29. > :27:35.campaign. Some voters will think that they have humiliated David
:27:36. > :27:39.Cameron and this should maybe accept that and get some change in the
:27:40. > :27:46.future. That has not happened. An opinion poll shows a 6-point advance
:27:47. > :27:57.for the Yes campaign. Well this translate into a victory on
:27:58. > :28:00.Thursday? I do not know. Most Scots never wanted to leave the United
:28:01. > :28:05.Kingdom in the first place. Every opinion poll for the last 30 years
:28:06. > :28:09.has shown that Scots want more economic powers within the overall
:28:10. > :28:17.wrapping of the native kingdom. It is quite extraordinary that this
:28:18. > :28:22.campaign has managed to force so many Scots into voting out of
:28:23. > :28:29.desperation or independence. One slightly different in -- one
:28:30. > :28:30.slightly different survey, regarding the question of whether David
:28:31. > :29:02.Cameron should resign? have to take responsibility if there
:29:03. > :29:08.is a Yes vote? I do not think so. Is that the British that are saying
:29:09. > :29:11.that? Yes. But there will be a political day of reckoning. There
:29:12. > :29:16.has been speculation about the position of David Cameron. There are
:29:17. > :29:19.some who will lay the blame more squarely at the door of Ed Miliband
:29:20. > :29:29.because it would be Labour voters who would desert to court two. There
:29:30. > :29:38.are 42% of Labour voters who are now contemplating voting Yes. That is
:29:39. > :29:46.the reverse of what happened before. In 2007 the SNP managed to establish
:29:47. > :29:50.a Government. Thank you for talking to us tonight.
:29:51. > :29:51.That is all for now. We are back at the same time tomorrow night.
:29:52. > :29:59.Goodbye.