:00:08. > :00:10.Now over to Sarah Smith on Scotland 2014.
:00:11. > :00:12.Scotland is a different country tonight.
:00:13. > :00:14.Not a separate one, but a changed place nonetheless.
:00:15. > :00:31.Tonight, we look at what change is coming and who will shape it.
:00:32. > :00:34.Alex Salmond will not, personally, be a part of bringing further
:00:35. > :00:38.But as he stepped down as First Minsiter and leader
:00:39. > :00:41.of the SNP, he also threw down the gauntlet to the other parties.
:00:42. > :00:44.He said the Scottish people will hold Westminster's feet to
:00:45. > :00:47.the fire and demand more powers for the Scottish parliament,
:00:48. > :00:52.according to the timetable set out during the referendum campaign.
:00:53. > :00:55.David Cameron said he intended to honour that promise.
:00:56. > :00:59.But also said the "English question" has to be answered at the same time.
:01:00. > :01:02.There should be English votes for English laws, he said.
:01:03. > :01:05.Something that would suit the Tory Party just fine,
:01:06. > :01:09.but that the Labour Party can almost certainly never agree to.
:01:10. > :01:12.Ed Miliband made that clear today when said he wanted to stick to
:01:13. > :01:14.the vow he signed alongside David Cameron to deliver further
:01:15. > :01:30.But that English reform could not be agreed that quickly.
:01:31. > :01:36.Tonight we know that major change is coming to the way Scotland is
:01:37. > :01:41.governed and the rest of the UK as well. We will try to find out what
:01:42. > :01:45.those changes look like, talking to politicians north and south of the
:01:46. > :01:48.board as well as political experts and pundits. Let's look back at the
:01:49. > :02:10.remarkable career of Alex Salmond. In that situation, I think party,
:02:11. > :02:19.parliament and country will benefit from new leadership.
:02:20. > :02:35.I heard a rumour. I think we won the election. I think we had better sit
:02:36. > :02:40.up and take notice that something is changing in Scotland. Folk will look
:02:41. > :02:57.at these results and they will be glad.
:02:58. > :03:05.It is a government of occupation we face in Scotland, just as surely as
:03:06. > :03:11.if they had an army at their backs. If we think about it, perhaps they
:03:12. > :03:18.have. I am honoured to announce that on Thursday, 18th of September,
:03:19. > :03:21.2014, we will hold Scotland 's referendum, a historic day for
:03:22. > :03:28.people who will decide Scotland 's future.
:03:29. > :03:34.Ladies and gentlemen, I think that has been pretty fair. Thank you very
:03:35. > :03:50.much indeed. Thank you. Joining me now in the studio,
:03:51. > :03:53.professor of public policy at Edinburgh University James
:03:54. > :04:09.Mitchell, who has also written books Thank you for joining us. Alex
:04:10. > :04:19.Salmond led the SNP for a total of 20 years in two 10 years bands. How
:04:20. > :04:25.much has he changed Scotland? On his party, he took the SNP from a fringe
:04:26. > :04:30.of politics to becoming the party of government that he has led. That is
:04:31. > :04:33.a phenomenal change. Secondly, as 1st minister, he has changed the
:04:34. > :04:40.nature of Scottish government. The whole structure of Scottish
:04:41. > :04:45.Government has changed. We have a very different approach. Within
:04:46. > :04:48.government coming he has put sustainable economic development,
:04:49. > :04:53.particularly energy policy very much on the agenda. I suspect that some
:04:54. > :04:56.of the benefits from those interesting highs in the policies he
:04:57. > :05:03.has pursued will be felt well into the future. He has played an
:05:04. > :05:08.enormous part on the Constitution and the creation of the Scottish
:05:09. > :05:13.Parliament. There was a referendum in 1977 which was crucial. He kept
:05:14. > :05:16.the issue of independence alive. Throughout that period he was a
:05:17. > :05:27.central figure in the national movement. Support for independence 2
:05:28. > :05:33.one half years ago was that 33%. It is now lying at 45%. For the first
:05:34. > :05:38.time ever, we had 16 and 17 -year-olds voting. I think he can
:05:39. > :05:43.look back and see a very rich career. I have only touched the
:05:44. > :05:50.surface of many things he has been involved in and he has achieved. He
:05:51. > :05:54.made it very clear that 1.6 million Scots have voted for independence
:05:55. > :05:58.and things have to change and change substantially. He will not be part
:05:59. > :06:03.of bringing that change. How complicated do you think it will be
:06:04. > :06:10.to get more power is delivered to the Scottish Parliament? It will be
:06:11. > :06:15.very challenging. Parties have made their position is clear. In the last
:06:16. > :06:20.week also an attempt to try to find a coherent package, I am not clear
:06:21. > :06:26.what that package really is. I did not see any coherence. I think the
:06:27. > :06:32.referendum, and particularly the polls, suggested there was majority
:06:33. > :06:38.support for independence which would concentrate minds. I do not think it
:06:39. > :06:43.will be easy. Politics will move on in Westminster. There are many other
:06:44. > :06:48.issues to consider, not just Scotland. The Scottish question will
:06:49. > :06:54.have to compete with the European question, European issues and
:06:55. > :07:02.matters of public finance. If you were to ignore the question, it
:07:03. > :07:07.would come back and hit hard in the future. Alex Salmond said he would
:07:08. > :07:10.hold Westminster 's speech to the fire and deliver on their promises.
:07:11. > :07:14.He has said there would not be another referendum for at least a
:07:15. > :07:19.generation. How can they make good on that threat?
:07:20. > :07:25.It is not just the SNP, it is up to the electorate in Scotland. If we
:07:26. > :07:30.are to believe what is said, there is sizeable support for more powers,
:07:31. > :07:34.and a substantial latent support for independence. If the SNP can garner
:07:35. > :07:40.that support, it will concentrate minds. Taking support away
:07:41. > :07:45.particularly from the Labour Party. That will be a challenge for the
:07:46. > :07:49.SNP. But I have to say, after this referendum, who knows? Scotland has
:07:50. > :07:54.changed, moving in directions that none of us are certain about. I have
:07:55. > :07:57.to say, none of the parties can be complacent. Thank you very much for
:07:58. > :08:02.talking to us tonight. Earlier I spoke to former
:08:03. > :08:05.SNP MSP Andrew Wilson and the former special advisor to
:08:06. > :08:15.Alex Salmond, Stephen Gethins. Stephen, can I ask you for your
:08:16. > :08:19.personal thoughts on Alex Salmond's resignation? Personally I think it
:08:20. > :08:23.is very sad. Alex was a fantastic politician, he has made the most
:08:24. > :08:29.dramatic impact on Scottish politics. He remained Scotland's
:08:30. > :08:33.most popular politician. After seven years in government. I am really
:08:34. > :08:37.personally sad to see him go. But I will say this on a personal note, he
:08:38. > :08:44.deserves the time he takes now, and I hope he enjoys his semi
:08:45. > :08:51.retirement, if you like. You worked closely with him as well, are you
:08:52. > :08:56.sorry to see him go? I am and I am not, I think as always he has chosen
:08:57. > :09:00.his moment with a touch of class and style. He had to go, when you think
:09:01. > :09:04.about what is going to happen next. He chose it impeccably. I think his
:09:05. > :09:09.second retirement should be hopefully more rewarding than his
:09:10. > :09:14.first. What is the future for the SNP without Alex Salmond? What do
:09:15. > :09:19.the next few years hold for the SNP? I think we will all miss Alex, who
:09:20. > :09:24.wouldn't? But I think we have got a fantastic future in the SNP. One
:09:25. > :09:29.thing that has been picked up by pundits and academics and others is
:09:30. > :09:35.that the SNP has a fantastic bench in terms of talent, different people
:09:36. > :09:38.with fantastic ideas. I think the future is looking pretty positive
:09:39. > :09:43.for the Scottish National Party. I am very optimistic about it. You may
:09:44. > :09:48.have talented ministers and a reasonably popular government, but
:09:49. > :09:50.there is a fundamental question. If the national question has been
:09:51. > :09:56.settled for a generation, what is the point of a Nationalist party? To
:09:57. > :10:00.promote the interest of Scotland and make sure we continue to empower the
:10:01. > :10:04.Scottish Parliament to drive the process of home rule further towards
:10:05. > :10:09.its completion. No one is suggesting for one minute that 1.6 million
:10:10. > :10:13.Scots that voted yes should somehow be disenfranchised and give up their
:10:14. > :10:18.hopes and beliefs. No surprise that today we have learned that 1000
:10:19. > :10:23.people have joined the SNP over the course of the last 24 hours. That is
:10:24. > :10:26.remarkable. What that speaks to is and energy in the country that
:10:27. > :10:30.doesn't want to give up, doesn't want to let go of the reform
:10:31. > :10:35.imperative that has been unleashed on this country. -- an energy. It is
:10:36. > :10:41.magnificent to watch. A great deal of the credit goes down to Alex
:10:42. > :10:53.Salmond and his leadership. Are the SNP going to be a part of this
:10:54. > :10:56.process of deciding what additional powers of the Scottish Parliament
:10:57. > :10:59.gets? At the very point the UK parties are going to get together to
:11:00. > :11:01.agree a plan, you are going to be fixated on a leadership contest.
:11:02. > :11:04.There will be a leadership contest, which is something we should look
:11:05. > :11:09.forward to. Saying that, although the SNP and the yes campaign did
:11:10. > :11:15.fantastically, 1.6 million votes... Remember, 1997, the devolution
:11:16. > :11:21.referendum, the amount of votes... So it is a great achievement. Saying
:11:22. > :11:24.that, the no campaign won, and the next age is more powers. The SNP
:11:25. > :11:31.will have their say, just like the other parties will. -- the next
:11:32. > :11:34.step. I hope that we can keep the Westminster parties to their
:11:35. > :11:39.promises and keeps the pressure up on them over the coming weeks and
:11:40. > :11:42.months. Now the referendum is settled and Alex Salmond himself
:11:43. > :11:45.said they would not be another one for a generation, what can the SNP
:11:46. > :11:52.do to make sure those parties stick to their promises? If you are asking
:11:53. > :11:56.me, the main focus has to be on the vow the three parties joint and put
:11:57. > :12:00.in front of the daily record, making sure they are held democratically
:12:01. > :12:04.accountable for it. It already appears within 24-hour is that
:12:05. > :12:07.pledge number one has not been fulfilled. We will forgive that,
:12:08. > :12:13.everyone is tired. But hopefully by the start of next week we can seem
:12:14. > :12:18.meant behind it. It looks like David Cameron cannot agree with his own
:12:19. > :12:23.party or Ed Miliband, and people in Scotland will have short patients
:12:24. > :12:26.for a government and other parties not fulfilling their promises, that
:12:27. > :12:30.were albeit made in haste towards the end of the campaign. A wee bit
:12:31. > :12:36.cynical about how that came about, it is up to them to prove us wrong.
:12:37. > :12:41.What can the SNP actually do if you are not proven wrong and any other
:12:42. > :12:44.parties let you down? We need to put maximum pressure on them to make
:12:45. > :12:49.sure they keep their promises. Andrew made a great point, as usual,
:12:50. > :12:54.which was that they promised us just a few days before polling day... And
:12:55. > :12:58.a lot of the Scottish people believe the promise, and so we need to go
:12:59. > :13:02.forward in that spirit to hold them to account. What we can do is just
:13:03. > :13:08.keep on reminding them that they have made this promise. And press,
:13:09. > :13:11.as the SNP has done, to make Scotland's case at Westminster,
:13:12. > :13:16.which unfortunately is still sovereign. We have a great bunch of
:13:17. > :13:22.MPs who will continue to keep up the pressure in Westminster. Thank you
:13:23. > :13:25.both very much. Everybody seems to be in Edinburgh tonight.
:13:26. > :13:27.Earlier I spoke to our political editor Brian Taylor,
:13:28. > :13:32.I asked him if he was surprised by Salmond's resignation.
:13:33. > :13:40.Not particularly, to be honest. Two motivations. First of all the
:13:41. > :13:44.strategic motivation, a remarkable campaign, an amazing democratic
:13:45. > :13:48.event, but the cause of independence failed, they lost, the argument did
:13:49. > :13:53.not convince sufficient people for them to win. So he is associated in
:13:54. > :13:57.that regard with defeat, he feels it is time to make a break
:13:58. > :14:02.strategically and allow the next individual, as he says, to drive
:14:03. > :14:05.forward from that higher base camp to the potential summit of
:14:06. > :14:09.independence at some point in the future. Secondly, there is a
:14:10. > :14:13.personal argument. He has been the leader twice, the ten years on each
:14:14. > :14:20.occasion, 20 years over a 24 year period. Scotland's longest serving
:14:21. > :14:25.First Minister. Not a bad shift at the coal face, as he put it. So he
:14:26. > :14:29.won't be a part of effecting whatever change comes to Scotland
:14:30. > :14:33.now, how do you see the process of more power being delivered to the
:14:34. > :14:40.Scottish parliament? There are two aspects. The focus frankly largely
:14:41. > :14:45.shifts to Westminster, in terms of the discussions about a potential
:14:46. > :14:49.bill in the Commons and the Lords eventually, although in the early
:14:50. > :14:53.stages it will be a draft bill. The role of Scotland will be in
:14:54. > :14:57.monitoring that, pursuing that. The role of the SNP and the independence
:14:58. > :15:01.campaign particularly will be in driving forward those changes. We
:15:02. > :15:05.heard from Mr Salmond today that he feels there is some signs of
:15:06. > :15:09.disquiet between Labour and the Conservatives and he believes there
:15:10. > :15:12.is slippage on behalf of the prime minister with regard to the
:15:13. > :15:17.timetable. The pro-union parties say that is not the case, they say the
:15:18. > :15:20.case of Scotland's potential bill is not coupled with the discussion
:15:21. > :15:24.about whether there should be further change for England,
:15:25. > :15:27.something which may take place on a different timetable. The Prime
:15:28. > :15:32.Minister is adamant he has signed up precisely to the timetable as set
:15:33. > :15:36.out by Gordon Brown Hummer not necessarily having a second reading
:15:37. > :15:39.debate at Westminster. -- Gordon Brown, not necessarily having a
:15:40. > :15:43.second reading debate at Westminster. Thank you for that.
:15:44. > :15:45.So one question was answered pretty decisively last night.
:15:46. > :15:49."Should Scotland be an independent country?"
:15:50. > :15:53.But what now for the Scottish parliament?
:15:54. > :15:56.What of the solemn vow to deliver new powers within nine months?
:15:57. > :15:58.Can it be done? Will it be done?
:15:59. > :16:10.The remnants of referendum fever. But to win, the no campaign had to
:16:11. > :16:17.promise change. That promise was laid out on the front page of the
:16:18. > :16:21.daily record, titled" The vow". Within a few hours of victory, the
:16:22. > :16:26.Prime Minister reminded us of the vow the three parties had taken. The
:16:27. > :16:29.three pro-union parties have made clear commitments and further powers
:16:30. > :16:35.for the Scottish parliament. We will ensure that those commitments are
:16:36. > :16:39.honoured in full. That was the promise, but here is the bet he
:16:40. > :16:45.didn't say before people went to the polls. The West Lothian question is
:16:46. > :16:48.to be part of the deal. Just as Scotland will vote separately in the
:16:49. > :16:54.Scottish Parliament on their issues of tax, spending and welfare, so too
:16:55. > :16:57.England, as well as Wales and Northern Ireland, should be able to
:16:58. > :17:03.vote on these issues. And all this must take place in tandem with, and
:17:04. > :17:08.at the same pace as, the settlement for Scotland. At the same pace as
:17:09. > :17:13.Scotland, six little words, and all of a sudden the vow looks like it
:17:14. > :17:18.might be unravelling. Ed Miliband doesn't want to deal with the rest
:17:19. > :17:22.of UK powers at that same pace. We want to go as fast as possible and
:17:23. > :17:26.we want to do it in a way that properly understands the way we need
:17:27. > :17:30.to change. We need to consult people and get this right, because the one
:17:31. > :17:35.lesson we know is that we can't do this as a knee jerk quick fix way,
:17:36. > :17:38.we have to do it in the right way. The most important thing, it can't
:17:39. > :17:42.just be stitched up in Westminster, Whitehall, people wouldn't stand for
:17:43. > :17:48.that. We need to start with the change people want to see. The West
:17:49. > :17:51.Lothian question, which means Scottish MPs losing powers at
:17:52. > :17:56.Westminster, is it now part of the deal giving Holyrood new powers? Is
:17:57. > :17:59.Ed Miliband going to be forced to break his promise to Scotland if he
:18:00. > :18:04.doesn't sign up to David Cameron's new plan?
:18:05. > :18:06.Joining me now from Edinburgh, former Chancellor and Conservative
:18:07. > :18:16.Is it possible that David Cameron can deliver new powers for the
:18:17. > :18:21.Scottish parliament to the timetable agreed, by March of next year, and
:18:22. > :18:26.also solve the intractable West Lothian question in the same time
:18:27. > :18:30.period? I think they will be addressed together. Whatever the
:18:31. > :18:35.outcome is, it has to affect the English, the Welsh and the Northern
:18:36. > :18:39.Ireland share as well. Rewriting the constitution. My understanding is is
:18:40. > :18:43.that what will be produced by next year is a second reading of the
:18:44. > :18:48.bill, the draft. The next part will actually go on to change the law. I
:18:49. > :18:52.don't think anybody contemplated suddenly writing a whole new
:18:53. > :18:57.constitution for all four nations so quickly, just like the independence
:18:58. > :19:00.question, this is for the next 50 years at least, it affects our
:19:01. > :19:06.children, grandchildren, their ability to look over the -- look
:19:07. > :19:09.after their own interests domestically, internationally,
:19:10. > :19:13.economically, politically... No doubt there will be a great deal of
:19:14. > :19:18.devolution, the Scots will have more devolution, nobody is going to go
:19:19. > :19:23.back on that. The Constitutions, if they are going to last, have to be
:19:24. > :19:27.in joined up writing. It is going to take quite a while to put together a
:19:28. > :19:32.plan for English devolution and assault out the whole UK. If
:19:33. > :19:36.something has to give, will it be the timetable, will he Scotland have
:19:37. > :19:40.to wait longer for extra powers or will it be rushing through a plan
:19:41. > :19:44.for England? Most Members of Parliament will want to stick to the
:19:45. > :19:48.timetable. Undertakings were given to Scotland, but don't forget,
:19:49. > :19:51.England, Wales and Northern Ireland have not had the debate, a
:19:52. > :19:57.marvellous debate that Scotland has had over the last month or two. They
:19:58. > :20:01.have to get up to speed. The timetable the devolution, if it were
:20:02. > :20:05.kept to... I do think all of the English cities stuff, the English
:20:06. > :20:11.devolution and all the rest of it, that is a different subject. We are
:20:12. > :20:15.day after a quite remarkable result. Everybody is putting in bids from
:20:16. > :20:19.all over the place, in those parts of the United Kingdom which have not
:20:20. > :20:24.so far been involved. Once everybody has calmed down, we will get back to
:20:25. > :20:30.delivering the promises to the Scottish people made in this
:20:31. > :20:35.referendum. Ed Miliband said... You can't just write it on the back of
:20:36. > :20:39.an envelope tomorrow. The SNP don't have the first idea in detail of
:20:40. > :20:44.what further devolved powers actually demand. Ed Miliband said it
:20:45. > :20:49.cannot be a deal stitched up in Westminster or Whitehall, he is
:20:50. > :20:52.talking about a narked -- a national conversation before embarking on
:20:53. > :20:58.constitutional change, but that will take some considerable time, won't
:20:59. > :21:02.it? I am sure everybody will do their best. I think they will
:21:03. > :21:05.achieve it. They were produced an outline of what is proposed before
:21:06. > :21:09.the next election. The difference between the UK parties are not
:21:10. > :21:14.substantial, we all agree it is tax and welfare... We have produced
:21:15. > :21:23.proposals. We had Tom Strathclyde's commission... They are very
:21:24. > :21:27.different... What proposals? The proposals for Scotland for the three
:21:28. > :21:30.main UK parties have considerable overlap, but when it comes to
:21:31. > :21:36.sorting out constitutional change for England, it is not. The
:21:37. > :21:39.so-called West Lothian question is important. I produced proposals on
:21:40. > :21:44.the West Lothian question the David Cameron before the last election. It
:21:45. > :21:49.has been taken on and all kinds of things have been produced on the
:21:50. > :21:53.West Lothian question. Most things are not English, it is far more
:21:54. > :21:58.complicated than just the debate taking place 24 hours after this
:21:59. > :22:03.vote. On both sides of the border. Of course no Scottish MP wants to
:22:04. > :22:07.vote on anything that has no effect on his constituency. There are not
:22:08. > :22:12.as many things as people imagine. We can make all of this by March, but
:22:13. > :22:15.because of the excitement, bitterness, disappointment after a
:22:16. > :22:19.referendum, we are having a slightly frivolous debate at the moment. We
:22:20. > :22:40.will deliver devolution to Scotland. Thank you for talking to us.
:22:41. > :22:49.Joining us tonight is Emily Thornberry. Ed Miliband said he
:22:50. > :22:54.could deliver what was agreed in the timetable. The Prime Minister seemed
:22:55. > :23:00.to think the 2 should happen at the same time. What a sensible person
:23:01. > :23:05.Kenneth Clarke can be at times. When you are outlining his programme, you
:23:06. > :23:09.were hoping there would be big differences between us. He has been
:23:10. > :23:16.talking about the hysteria 24 hours later, about the Prime Minister
:23:17. > :23:20.trying to bring about the idea of sorting out the Constitution and the
:23:21. > :23:24.West Lothian question in such a short period of time is not
:23:25. > :23:30.possible. He agrees with Labour. Our position as this. In 2012, we began
:23:31. > :23:34.a debate in Scotland about how we should devolve powers. We consulted
:23:35. > :23:39.very widely. At the beginning of this year we published what we
:23:40. > :23:42.should do. There was a lot more emphasis week before the campaign.
:23:43. > :23:47.Essentially we have always been completely clear about the sort of
:23:48. > :23:55.things we would want. ) you have been completely clear about Scottish
:23:56. > :23:59.powers. -- you have been. Let me take it in stages. We have also been
:24:00. > :24:04.completely clear about the timetable. Whoever is in power in
:24:05. > :24:07.May will be implementing that devolution, whether it is Labour or
:24:08. > :24:12.the Conservatives. That is the agreement. Let's park that. David
:24:13. > :24:16.Cameron, about an hour after the results were announced, came out
:24:17. > :24:20.outside Number 10 and started to hitch a whole lot of other stuff
:24:21. > :24:29.onto it, in particular trying to hitch on the idea of indicia MPs
:24:30. > :24:34.voting on in this legislation. -- English MPs voting on English
:24:35. > :24:39.legislation. Whatever he was planning all along to attach the
:24:40. > :24:46.English question to it. As Ken Clarke, who, until recently, a
:24:47. > :24:50.senior member of the Cabinet has said, it is not possible to hit
:24:51. > :24:56.those things together. In the blink of an eye, on the back of a fag
:24:57. > :25:00.packet, we cannot decide to have major constitutional change for this
:25:01. > :25:04.country. The Constitution of this country is not some sort of toys for
:25:05. > :25:12.David Cameron. I was disappointed when he came out this morning with a
:25:13. > :25:17.rather glib, pretty party political and pretty facile analysis of what
:25:18. > :25:21.should happen next. We have a 2nd chamber. We have the House of Lords.
:25:22. > :25:27.Everyone knows that needs to be changed. Why are we not using that
:25:28. > :25:30.as a regional assembly? Why are we not talking to people in England the
:25:31. > :25:41.way we talk to people in Scotland about what powers they think should
:25:42. > :25:49.be devolved to the city than -- cities and regions across England?
:25:50. > :25:53.You were able to hear both of those interviews. Ken Clarke seemed to
:25:54. > :25:56.think it was no problem at all to reform the whole British
:25:57. > :26:00.constitution by Easter. Emily Thornberry made it clear it would
:26:01. > :26:06.take years to resolve the English question but then she can decouple
:26:07. > :26:12.it from the Scottish question. -- thinks she can. If I have a puzzled
:26:13. > :26:18.and perplexed look on my face, that is because that is how I feel. Those
:26:19. > :26:21.2 politicians have not understood the conversation that Mister Clarke
:26:22. > :26:26.seems to think Scotland has been having for the last couple of
:26:27. > :26:32.months. Actually it is 2 years, if not longer. I do agree with your
:26:33. > :26:37.position. I think the Prime Minister laid a clever trap the Labour and
:26:38. > :26:42.Labour has been caught in that. The fact of the matter, if we bring it
:26:43. > :26:48.back to Scotland, 1.6 million people voted to say they did not want to be
:26:49. > :26:51.part of the union. A substantial majority, I believe, of those who
:26:52. > :26:55.said they did want to be part of the union did so on the basis of what
:26:56. > :27:00.they believed was a promise from three political leaders at
:27:01. > :27:04.Westminster and will expect that promise to be delivered to the
:27:05. > :27:08.timetable that Gordon Brown made much of. What is interesting is, in
:27:09. > :27:14.addition to everything else, in a discussion that we have just seen,
:27:15. > :27:18.somehow the people of Scotland, that grassroots campaign and the Scottish
:27:19. > :27:24.Government do not seem to feature in all of this. It is going to be taken
:27:25. > :27:28.down to Westminster where it will be sorted out. That is such a
:27:29. > :27:32.misreading of what we have been doing. In Westminster, they probably
:27:33. > :27:37.think, the Scottish question has been settled. It looked tight for a
:27:38. > :27:43.while but we got away with it. Why should we worry about Scotland any
:27:44. > :27:48.longer? I think what happened after Scotland secured its parliament in
:27:49. > :27:51.1998, that actually Westminster than thought that was Scotland dealt
:27:52. > :27:56.with. They have paid little attention to us in the intervening
:27:57. > :28:01.years and do not understand how Scotland has changed in that period.
:28:02. > :28:10.This bow was written on the back of a fag packet frankly. It was a
:28:11. > :28:14.political fix to get the union parties through to September the
:28:15. > :28:20.19th and everything would be fine. It worked but my deep upset is for
:28:21. > :28:25.those folks who voted against independence, believing in the
:28:26. > :28:30.promise that they were made who may be utterly disillusioned in the
:28:31. > :28:33.months ahead. Our job is to get that grassroots campaign and that
:28:34. > :28:39.Scottish Government to the table. We will all be watching what happens.
:28:40. > :28:42.Let's take a look at how the rest of the world are reporting
:28:43. > :28:55.The New York Times reports Alex Salmond will step down after his
:28:56. > :29:02.failed bid for independence. France 24 online reports how Scots have the
:29:03. > :29:12.opportunity to hold Westminster 's feet to the fire. The Times of India
:29:13. > :29:15.reports the first minister 's speech saying his time is nearly over. The
:29:16. > :29:20.dream shall never die, he says. Joining me now to talk
:29:21. > :29:22.about all the day's events, former Yes Scotland director
:29:23. > :29:24.of communications Susan Stewart Plus, Alison Dowling from
:29:25. > :29:36.Better Together. Thank you very much for coming in.
:29:37. > :29:41.It is quite a day to collect your thoughts. I will start with you,
:29:42. > :29:45.Susan. You must be bitterly disappointed. I was bitterly
:29:46. > :29:50.disappointed with the result. I think we can all take heart in the
:29:51. > :29:53.turnout of both sides and from the Yes Scotland perspective. The amount
:29:54. > :29:57.of people who got involved in political activity who had never
:29:58. > :30:02.been engaged before. From the perspective of independence, they
:30:03. > :30:08.will not go back into the private sphere and leave politics to the men
:30:09. > :30:12.in suits. Scotland has changed. That is something political parties in
:30:13. > :30:17.Scotland and Westminster ought to take license. We saw earlier a
:30:18. > :30:21.picture of a dejected looking Alex Salmond. He has tweeted out a much
:30:22. > :30:28.happier picture this evening of him and his wife, Moira, on their way
:30:29. > :30:32.back home to Aberdeenshire. He has thanked everyone for kind messages
:30:33. > :30:38.of support. That may be the last we will see of him for a time. Will you
:30:39. > :30:44.miss him? I will anyway because he is a character. I think that a lot
:30:45. > :30:47.of people who have not been directly involved in this campaign, and I am
:30:48. > :30:51.not involved with political parties, I think that people are now
:30:52. > :30:55.beginning to understand how emotionally important it was for a
:30:56. > :31:00.whole range of different people, for the winning side, for Alison 's
:31:01. > :31:05.side, and I have been a yes supporter, so obviously I am on the
:31:06. > :31:11.losing side. I went to my local yes group in Glasgow, who had the
:31:12. > :31:14.biggest single majority anywhere in Scotland. Campaign workers were
:31:15. > :31:19.elated with their achievement, albeit that they have lost the big
:31:20. > :31:26.campaign, they had won a small race. That is sometimes important in life.
:31:27. > :31:31.They turned out at a snooker club getting drunk and good on them. They
:31:32. > :31:37.did a good job for a community that has a lot of social deprivation.
:31:38. > :31:41.They brought people out to believe it did not happen but it's time will
:31:42. > :31:48.come. To what extent do the better together parties take on board that
:31:49. > :31:57.when all those Scots vote for independence that means it is better
:31:58. > :32:00.than ever. Almost half of the country has voted for independence.
:32:01. > :32:05.Our side one, if you want to describe it like that. It cannot be
:32:06. > :32:10.ignored. The main story tonight is the squabbling between some of the
:32:11. > :32:13.main parties. It has to be resolved. Scottish people will hold the
:32:14. > :32:26.politicians to account if they do not deliver on the row that was
:32:27. > :32:33.promised. It is much bigger now. -- vow. It is out of the hands of the
:32:34. > :32:37.Scottish people. I do not have a problem with broadening this out. It
:32:38. > :32:42.is devolution in action. It is bringing in civic society hopefully
:32:43. > :32:47.as well will stop I want to see that for all of the regions in the
:32:48. > :32:53.countries of the UK, not just here in Scotland. It have to take
:32:54. > :32:58.cognizance of the fact we have had a 2-year referendum campaign. The
:32:59. > :33:04.people of Scotland need to be heard and will be heard. I was slightly
:33:05. > :33:13.disagree. Because Pat Caines is not in the studio, I feel obliged to
:33:14. > :33:18.mention the Marxist side. He said there were three phases in the
:33:19. > :33:22.evolution. It is important because it is the emergence, the dominant
:33:23. > :33:27.and the residual. The dominant is where Alison and her group are. They
:33:28. > :33:32.control, dominate and they have won the referendum. The residual is
:33:33. > :33:36.happening in George Square, where a fading and almost derelict version
:33:37. > :33:41.of unionism is actually shaming Scotland currently in 1 of our major
:33:42. > :33:49.squares. The emerging is the group of people that were part of this
:33:50. > :33:54.remarkable campaign around yes Scotland, all the groups. They are
:33:55. > :33:57.the new normal in Scotland. The idea that independence is not mainstream,
:33:58. > :34:03.you would have to be drunk to believe that is not true. Is that
:34:04. > :34:07.something you would share? Absolutely. Of course, the Scottish
:34:08. > :34:12.people are now expecting the promises will be kept. It is a
:34:13. > :34:16.numbers game. We are nine months away from Westminster general
:34:17. > :34:20.election. Scottish boats, by virtue of our size, are pretty irrelevant.
:34:21. > :34:23.This battle will be fought out in England. This is back on the back
:34:24. > :34:25.burner. That's all from us tonight.
:34:26. > :34:27.Thank you for watching. I'll be back at the usual time
:34:28. > :34:31.of 10.30pm on Monday.