:00:00. > :00:27.Does the Scotland Bill really live up to expectations?
:00:28. > :00:36.More than 100 amendments have been tabled to the Scotland Bill tonight.
:00:37. > :00:39.The Scottish Secretary says he's delivering on the Vow
:00:40. > :00:41.for more powers for Scotland - the Deputy First Minister disagrees.
:00:42. > :00:45.Also, the fall-out siren is sounding on Trident.
:00:46. > :00:48.Scottish Labour's vote to scrap the weapons system sends shockwaves
:00:49. > :00:55.through the union movement and the party as a whole.
:00:56. > :01:01.House of Commons officials confirmed tonight they've received more than
:01:02. > :01:09.The Scottish Secretary David Mundell says any reasonable person would
:01:10. > :01:11.agree the Bill meets the Smith Agreement that came
:01:12. > :01:15.To the contrary, says John Swinney, the Deputy First Minister,
:01:16. > :01:27.Here's our political correspondent, Tim Reid.
:01:28. > :01:34.This is essentially the Scotland Bill Mark two, a new and improved
:01:35. > :01:38.version of the legislation published earlier this year. David Mundell
:01:39. > :01:44.saying he has listened to all the criticism made to the earlier
:01:45. > :01:48.passage of the legislation. Interesting today we have seen lots
:01:49. > :01:54.of the theatre, the reaction to the amendments that were not published
:01:55. > :01:59.until late tonight. The reaction has been based on the words and
:02:00. > :02:05.assurances that David Mundell, the Scottish Secretary, has given that
:02:06. > :02:07.this Bill lives up to the the Vow and Smith Commission
:02:08. > :02:14.recommendations. He says welfare powers have been beefed up. The
:02:15. > :02:18.permanency of the Scottish Parliament is guaranteed in the
:02:19. > :02:22.future. The veto over welfare powers that many of the Scottish ministers
:02:23. > :02:29.had been concerned about has been removed. Not everyone is convinced
:02:30. > :02:32.about that. John Swinney says he does not believe this lives up to
:02:33. > :02:37.the the Vow. Many of the power she put forward are not included in the
:02:38. > :02:43.Bill. Gordon Brown said tonight he believes that because of Labour
:02:44. > :02:48.pressure many of the amendments are there and the Vow has now been lived
:02:49. > :02:51.up to. He had not seen the amendments when he made that
:02:52. > :02:56.statement by press release earlier tonight. It leaves us very much
:02:57. > :03:01.where we were before the amendments were published which is that the
:03:02. > :03:05.Scotland Office says they have lived up to the Vow, the Scottish
:03:06. > :03:09.Government says they have not lived up to the Vow, and we have a debate
:03:10. > :03:10.here next week for all of these arguments will be rehearsed once
:03:11. > :03:11.again. Just before we came on air I spoke
:03:12. > :03:22.to the Scottish Secretary David David Mundell, you were saying any
:03:23. > :03:25.reasonable person would conclude the Bill meets the Smith Commission
:03:26. > :03:30.Agreement. John Swinney does not agree with that. Is he not a
:03:31. > :03:34.reasonable man? John Swinney as somebody who wants Scotland is to be
:03:35. > :03:39.independent. That is the argument that he is making. I do not think we
:03:40. > :03:44.will ever satisfy the Scottish Government or the SNP in relation to
:03:45. > :03:48.additional devolution. What I am hoping is that when people say the
:03:49. > :03:54.Bill as amended, when it starts to impact on their day to day lives,
:03:55. > :03:57.when they are paying income tax in Scotland, saying the benefit system
:03:58. > :04:01.shipped in Scotland, that they will realise that this is a very
:04:02. > :04:06.significant change and it is a change that reflects in full, in
:04:07. > :04:10.words and in spirit, the proposals of the Smith Commission.
:04:11. > :04:13.It does not need the Smith Commission report. As John Swinney
:04:14. > :04:21.says there are significant weaknesses remaining. On page 16 bid
:04:22. > :04:24.talks about Crown assets, revenue generated from Crown Estate should
:04:25. > :04:29.be transferred to the Scottish Parliament. There is not fool
:04:30. > :04:34.devolution to the Crown Estate as John Swinney says. Why not? I do not
:04:35. > :04:39.agree with John Swinney's interpretation and I do not
:04:40. > :04:48.understand the fixation that the Scottish Government has with the
:04:49. > :04:51.Fort Kinnaird shopping centre. When people wanted devolution of the
:04:52. > :04:57.Crown Estate that was about is making sure that the Crown Estate
:04:58. > :05:02.was responsive to remote communities and played a part. It was not about
:05:03. > :05:06.shopping centres which were actually part of an English legal
:05:07. > :05:10.partnership. The way in which we have devolved the management of the
:05:11. > :05:15.assets of the Crown Estate is what the Smith Commission intended and I
:05:16. > :05:19.am sure that that will be reflected by anybody looking reasonably at the
:05:20. > :05:24.proposals. What you have been saying for some
:05:25. > :05:28.time now, the Smith Commission has been fulfilled, but you are sitting
:05:29. > :05:31.there at Westminster tonight, about 100 amendments have been tabled. How
:05:32. > :05:37.could it have been fulfilled when we are still looking at more and more
:05:38. > :05:43.changes? It has been called Scotland Bill to. We have a parliamentary
:05:44. > :05:48.democracy where we debate things. I wanted to make the Bill better. I
:05:49. > :05:52.believe the Billy producer did reflect the Smith Commission but if
:05:53. > :05:57.people have reasonable conditions I will take those on board. I did not
:05:58. > :06:00.take on board amendments for things like full fiscal autonomy or
:06:01. > :06:06.devolving National Insurance which was not agreed by the Smith
:06:07. > :06:11.Commission, but what I did do was when Cato 's organisations and MPs
:06:12. > :06:14.in Scotland said they could be a better definition of carers and have
:06:15. > :06:19.more flexibility in what the Scottish Parliament could do I took
:06:20. > :06:24.that on board. That is what debate and discussion about the Bill has
:06:25. > :06:28.been about. Making it better. Taking things like the power to create new
:06:29. > :06:33.benefits in devolved areas and putting it on the face of the Bill.
:06:34. > :06:37.Constitutional lawyers argue that the Scottish Parliament already has
:06:38. > :06:40.some of these powers but in order to avoid any doubt voters put them on
:06:41. > :06:44.the face of the Bill so people know exactly what is being delivered by
:06:45. > :06:50.the Smith Commission. The finances behind this are very
:06:51. > :06:53.important. You are trying to set up this fiscal framework, essentially
:06:54. > :06:59.trying to say that Scotland does not lose out financially. When we get
:07:00. > :07:04.that Agreement? The end of the month? By the Autumn Statement? The
:07:05. > :07:07.discussions are going well in relation to the fiscal framework.
:07:08. > :07:14.Both governments want to see a fair settlement for Scotland. A lot of
:07:15. > :07:18.legwork has been put into getting that Agreement. There are two big
:07:19. > :07:22.events coming up for the UK Treasury on the Spending Review and for the
:07:23. > :07:26.Scottish Government we have got the Scottish budget. Probably there will
:07:27. > :07:31.not be the capacity to have much progress over the next few weeks but
:07:32. > :07:35.I am confident we will have a fiscal framework in place by the time the
:07:36. > :07:39.Bill completes its parliamentary passage so that people will not only
:07:40. > :07:43.see the new powers that Scotland is going to get to make the Scottish
:07:44. > :07:46.Parliament one of the most powerful devolved parliament anywhere in the
:07:47. > :07:47.world, but they will also see the financial basis upon which that is
:07:48. > :07:51.going to happen. Thank you. And shortly after that interview,
:07:52. > :07:55.I caught up with the Deputy First Minister John Swinney
:07:56. > :08:06.in our Dundee studio. John Swinney, I have got your
:08:07. > :08:13.shopping list of issues. At the top of the lists are issues relating to
:08:14. > :08:18.the Sewel Convention. When you are campaigning is this the top issue.
:08:19. > :08:23.You are just nit-picking, are you not? What we are doing is making
:08:24. > :08:27.sure that issues that were properly raised by the Scottish Government
:08:28. > :08:31.and the devolution unity of the Scottish Parliament are
:08:32. > :08:37.comprehensively addressed by the UK Government. That is important. It is
:08:38. > :08:41.only when those issues are addressed will the Smith Commission have been
:08:42. > :08:44.implemented in full in spirit and in substance by the UK Government,
:08:45. > :08:48.which has been our objective throughout this process. David
:08:49. > :08:52.Mundell says it has been implemented in full. Was there any legislation
:08:53. > :08:56.at Westminster could have passed that would have satisfied you while
:08:57. > :09:02.still fitting end with the referendum vote of 2014? If you go
:09:03. > :09:06.back to the interviews that David Mundell was giving over the summer,
:09:07. > :09:10.he was seeing over the summer, when he introduced this Bill, it had
:09:11. > :09:15.implemented the Smith Commission info. Now we find ourselves several
:09:16. > :09:19.months later, 100 members having to be tabled, to deal with the fact
:09:20. > :09:22.that the Smith Commission was not in fact commented in full by the
:09:23. > :09:26.publication of this legislation in the first place. There should be
:09:27. > :09:30.some considerable scepticism about the commitment of the Secretary of
:09:31. > :09:34.State. We have set out in great detail the changes that we believe
:09:35. > :09:39.have to be made by the UK Government to ensure that this legislation did
:09:40. > :09:42.implement the Smith Commission report in full and there are a
:09:43. > :09:47.number of babies this is not been done. Principal among them is when
:09:48. > :09:50.it comes to exercising Social Security responsibilities in the
:09:51. > :09:54.Scottish Parliament we will still have two secured the consent and
:09:55. > :10:04.Agreement of the UK Government. But as a by another name. The UK
:10:05. > :10:11.Government is very clear there is a misapprehension about Beatles. Go
:10:12. > :10:15.and read the clauses. The Agreement of a UK minister is required if we
:10:16. > :10:18.want to take forward changes in social security. That puts control
:10:19. > :10:23.in the hands of the UK Government and gives them a veto. If you
:10:24. > :10:28.devolve power, look back at the history of devolution, you devolved
:10:29. > :10:32.responsibility in its entirety to the Scottish Parliament, to be able
:10:33. > :10:36.to exercise those responsibilities. If we want to make a decision on
:10:37. > :10:40.health begin at have too asked the UK Government, we just get on and do
:10:41. > :10:45.it. But on issues of social security the UK Government is requiring us to
:10:46. > :10:48.go to them to seek their Agreement to undertake the changes that we
:10:49. > :10:53.want to change and they have a basis of withholding that Agreement and
:10:54. > :10:59.that is a veto by any interpretation you can apply. But the issue is here
:11:00. > :11:03.the majority of people voted to remain in the UK. Something like
:11:04. > :11:08.Universal Credit is still being reserved. Perhaps you are wanting to
:11:09. > :11:13.over egg the pudding which the Smith Commission did not promise and which
:11:14. > :11:18.the people of Scotland, the majority of the people of Scotland, fought to
:11:19. > :11:23.stay in the UK, and actually these powers are not used for taking at
:11:24. > :11:28.the moment. Two things about that. The first is that the Smith
:11:29. > :11:31.Commission followed the referendum. The people of Scotland is required
:11:32. > :11:37.at Smith Commission report be fermented in full. One particular
:11:38. > :11:43.example, and there are others, where the Smith Commission report is not
:11:44. > :11:47.being limited in fool even by these changes that have been brought
:11:48. > :11:51.forward. But in terms of powers beyond the Smith Commission that a
:11:52. > :11:59.different argument which is German videos come of the Westminster
:12:00. > :12:03.election in me is the SNP pulling over 50% of the vote in that
:12:04. > :12:06.election and the people of Scotland demanding quite clearly a greater
:12:07. > :12:09.range of powers at the disposal of the people of Scotland is to ship
:12:10. > :12:15.and determine the future of our country. David Mundell as saying
:12:16. > :12:19.that he is fulfilling the Smith Commission and that is before the
:12:20. > :12:23.general election. I quite understand the Secretary of State is trying to
:12:24. > :12:26.permit the Smith Commission report. I constantly pointing out that
:12:27. > :12:30.anybody observing Scottish politics is trying to take the temperature
:12:31. > :12:34.and mood of the people of Scotland which recognise that having heard
:12:35. > :12:36.the Smith Commission, having seen its report being published in
:12:37. > :12:42.advance of the general election, the people of Scotland voted with the
:12:43. > :12:45.support of over 50% for the SNP for there to be more powers for the
:12:46. > :12:49.Scottish Parliament. That is what should be responded to by the UK
:12:50. > :12:52.Government. That is what my colleagues have been trying to
:12:53. > :12:58.advance in the House of Commons. At some of the areas we will continue
:12:59. > :13:01.to push for. You are getting these new powers.
:13:02. > :13:06.The time is now for you to use them. You have been complaining
:13:07. > :13:09.about working tax credits being cut. Are you going to diverse
:13:10. > :13:16.working tax credits cuts in Scotland once you get powers? If you look at
:13:17. > :13:20.how we have exercised are powers to date the Scottish Government has
:13:21. > :13:25.taken a series of steps to mitigate the effect of UK Government welfare
:13:26. > :13:29.reforms. We are spending ?100 million per year mitigating the
:13:30. > :13:34.effects of the welfare reforms. Clearly there are changes to the tax
:13:35. > :13:38.credits system coming forward from the UK Government. A quite vicious
:13:39. > :13:42.attack on some of the low paid working people of our country. The
:13:43. > :13:46.UK Government has been sent home to think again so we will have to wait
:13:47. > :13:50.and see what proposals they come forward with when they come forward
:13:51. > :13:54.and the author stated in a few weeks' time. The Scottish Government
:13:55. > :14:01.will use all of our powers to the best of our ability. We will
:14:02. > :14:05.consider the issues that arise out of the changes that have been made
:14:06. > :14:10.by the UK Government when we see the final changes that emerge on the
:14:11. > :14:14.25th of November as a consequence of the discussions of last week.
:14:15. > :14:18.Scottish Government is determined to make sure that we support those who
:14:19. > :14:22.are affected by the welfare reforms and picture that's been put in place
:14:23. > :14:26.the effective assistance that can mitigate as far as we possibly can
:14:27. > :14:31.do the effects of the UK Government changes. Thank you.
:14:32. > :14:34.It was a passionate debate in Perth on the future
:14:35. > :14:38.Labour delegates young and old made stirring
:14:39. > :14:41.and emotional speeches about whether Trident should be renewed or not.
:14:42. > :14:44.The final vote was overwhelmingly against renewal.
:14:45. > :14:47.But Scottish Labour's decision to press the nuclear button has left
:14:48. > :14:49.a series of rifts in the party at Holyrood,
:14:50. > :15:44.Here's Andrew Black. 167,000 million pounds on nuclear
:15:45. > :15:46.weapons. I do not believe that giving up our nuclear weapons in
:15:47. > :17:27.isolation will trigger other giving up our nuclear weapons in
:17:28. > :17:33.contribution to influence wider party policy. What we want to do is
:17:34. > :17:38.build oldest possible coalition against Ryden. I want people from
:17:39. > :17:41.all political parties to come to that conclusion. I want the
:17:42. > :17:46.communities whose strident to come to that conclusion, I want the
:17:47. > :17:51.workers involved in Trident come to that conclusion. And key to this
:17:52. > :17:55.debate is how we ensure that those communities and those workers secure
:17:56. > :18:01.their future without Trident. And that is what should be focusing all
:18:02. > :18:09.our minds at the moment. That issue of jobs at the home of Trident has
:18:10. > :18:12.caused further division. You might voted against Trident renewal at the
:18:13. > :18:20.Scottish Labour conference provoking anger. We expect our union to back
:18:21. > :18:28.us to the hilt in preserving our jobs. We don't believe it has done
:18:29. > :18:38.so. Scottish Labour's Trident debate was held to rid the party of the
:18:39. > :18:40.perception of control freak read but instead it has created more problems
:18:41. > :18:41.than solved them. Now I am joined by the Labour MP for
:18:42. > :18:44.Barrow and Furness, John Woodcock. There's a BAE shipyard which builds
:18:45. > :18:58.submarines in his constituency. Good evening to you and thank you
:18:59. > :19:01.for joining us. Now, you are no fan of Jeremy Corbyn but this decision
:19:02. > :19:09.by Scottish Labour means even more chaos under his leadership. Well, of
:19:10. > :19:12.course, the Scottish party was entitled to express its view on
:19:13. > :19:20.this. And I think many of the voices in the clip two you played made
:19:21. > :19:30.important points, and I think I have particular sympathy for the workers
:19:31. > :19:33.at Faslane, and one of their two unions in a real difference to its
:19:34. > :19:38.policy in the United Kingdom, haven't backed those workers. But
:19:39. > :19:45.all of this, I think, takes place against a act round where we need to
:19:46. > :19:49.realise that the vote to renew the deterrent is going to happen. There
:19:50. > :19:55.is a cast-iron majority for it in Parliament in the UK Parliament. And
:19:56. > :20:03.many of the UK Labour MPs have just recently including myself stood on a
:20:04. > :20:10.clear manifesto commitment to renew the deterrent. That commitment was
:20:11. > :20:17.endorsed wholeheartedly at the UK conference, of which, obviously,
:20:18. > :20:22.Scotland was part. Yes, because you are very concerned about jobs in
:20:23. > :20:25.your constituency. But why does this decision let down working people?
:20:26. > :20:30.Scottish Labour were very clear at the weekend there would be a process
:20:31. > :20:34.of diversification and support for affected communities. You can say
:20:35. > :20:37.those things but saying it is one thing but delivering on it is
:20:38. > :20:42.another. The thing that Saddam me most about that debate was the
:20:43. > :20:49.people, good Labour people, who used the argument that we heard from the
:20:50. > :20:55.Conservatives saying, just days earlier, to steelworkers, basically
:20:56. > :20:59.saying don't worry we will find you something else to do. Now,
:21:00. > :21:08.unfortunately, we need to make clear that is a fantasy. There is no
:21:09. > :21:16.alternative that can sustain the employment of the Faslane employees.
:21:17. > :21:21.And the many thousands of people in Faslane who uphold the submarines
:21:22. > :21:24.and deterrent. But also more than 100 of the advanced manufacturing
:21:25. > :21:30.and engineering companies across Scotland alone who are part of the
:21:31. > :21:34.supply chain. These are the jobs we need more of in the country, so it
:21:35. > :21:39.is saddening to see this decision taken. So, people's jobs are vitally
:21:40. > :21:42.important and we have been debating that night. There is a huge moral
:21:43. > :21:48.question here about whether or not it is right to hold and use these
:21:49. > :21:50.weapons of mass destruction. And perhaps you might think that
:21:51. > :21:59.question is actually more important than people's jobs. Yes, I do. And
:22:00. > :22:03.the whole point of the UK having the deterrent, the reason, the sole
:22:04. > :22:14.reason why Clem at Lake, as a Labour Prime Minister in that famous 1945
:22:15. > :22:19.government, the reason we construct of the deterrent was to make the
:22:20. > :22:23.horrifying prospect of a nuclear war less likely. It deters that prospect
:22:24. > :22:28.which is why we have it. It is no accident that the only nuclear
:22:29. > :22:35.weapons strikes we've had in the world have taken place in a world
:22:36. > :22:40.where, at the time, only one country, the United States, had
:22:41. > :22:41.them. We will have to leave it there, but thank you for joining us
:22:42. > :22:43.this evening. Joining us now to look back
:22:44. > :22:46.at the rest of the day's news is the former head of Communications for
:22:47. > :22:56.the SNP Kevin Pringle and Pauline Good evening to both of you and
:22:57. > :23:01.thank you for joining us on the programme. Pauline, Labour at the
:23:02. > :23:08.weekend back to the good old days or bad old days, depending where you
:23:09. > :23:15.stand, on the Trident vote. 1988 was the last year that Scottish Labour
:23:16. > :23:21.discussed Trident. No, I think it felt like the old days where the
:23:22. > :23:26.band storming speeches were made, but the point has been missed. It's
:23:27. > :23:31.not so much where you stand on Trident. The heart of the debate was
:23:32. > :23:40.the morale at the of it, and the morality of spending 167 Ilion
:23:41. > :23:44.pounds. Scottish Labour can make its own decisions on important matters.
:23:45. > :23:49.That is the heart of the debate. Having that debate now leads to
:23:50. > :23:52.chaos with the unions, with different for righties of policy
:23:53. > :23:59.north and south of the border. Different policies that both leaders
:24:00. > :24:04.want to pursue. It has opened up a can of worms. It has, but if
:24:05. > :24:10.Scottish Labour cannot demonstrate it can make its own decisions, even
:24:11. > :24:15.to express the opinion of the Scottish people as Labour sees it,
:24:16. > :24:18.we will not turn the corner on the opinion polls. So it is a
:24:19. > :24:24.fundamental change we saw at the weekend. We have had other complex
:24:25. > :24:30.decisions to work out, I am sure we will work this out. Labour have
:24:31. > :24:35.sometimes found difficulties on the doorstep with this issue. This
:24:36. > :24:40.policy might make it easier for them to appeal to people who voted SNP in
:24:41. > :24:45.the past. They might get former SNP people back to them having this
:24:46. > :24:50.policy. I don't think so. All through the 1980s and 90s, the
:24:51. > :24:54.Scottish Labour conference always voted against Trident, voted to
:24:55. > :24:59.scrap Trident but it didn't make any difference to the UK Labour policy,
:25:00. > :25:04.it didn't make any difference to the Labour government, and it has made
:25:05. > :25:10.any difference to Trident because it is still here. It is being renewed
:25:11. > :25:15.at a cost of ?467 billion. That's the point. We can have opinions in
:25:16. > :25:19.Scotland, and Maria Eagle has made the point that it is the opinion of
:25:20. > :25:22.the Scottish Labour Party, it isn't a policy but we need to have the
:25:23. > :25:31.power to decide these matters in Scotland. That is the lesson. We can
:25:32. > :25:38.have the opinion but we do not have the power. There would be a process
:25:39. > :25:43.of diversification and they would spend that money on workers jobs
:25:44. > :25:51.accuse the SNP of saying the SNP have -- spent the money 12 times
:25:52. > :25:56.over. I would sit for the point. The main myth about Trident is that it
:25:57. > :25:59.enhances our security. It's in the dozen. Apart from anything else,
:26:00. > :26:10.there's no credibility to the idea of any UK prime list ever using
:26:11. > :26:14.Trident. Every Trident warhead eight times the destructive capacity of
:26:15. > :26:22.Hiroshima. If you take Scotland's contribution, that is ?14 billion.
:26:23. > :26:28.When Labour in government, they said there were fewer than 1,000 jobs
:26:29. > :26:34.directly and indirectly based upon Trident. That is ?14 million per
:26:35. > :26:43.jobs. If you apply that to money to the productive capacity, you have
:26:44. > :26:46.hundreds of thousands of jobs. There were some internal divisions in the
:26:47. > :26:50.Conservative Party. Let's look at Philip Davies asking the question in
:26:51. > :26:53.the House of Commons about Europe. Wilkie agree with media anyway this
:26:54. > :27:02.country will ever get can pleat control about citizens is by leaving
:27:03. > :27:07.the European Union? -- complete control. Can I say to my honourable
:27:08. > :27:14.friend the promised has the country a referendum on that matter. Which
:27:15. > :27:16.is a huge step forward for the honourable gentleman opposite. They
:27:17. > :27:24.will have a vote on that and I suggest at that moment he is able to
:27:25. > :27:30.make that powerful argument. That was Iain Duncan Smith saying the
:27:31. > :27:34.Eurosceptics might well win. And, tonight, we're getting George
:27:35. > :27:39.Osborne's five key economic demands for the UK, such as participation in
:27:40. > :27:43.the banking union must be voluntary. What do you make of the UK
:27:44. > :27:49.Government's attempts to start the negotiations with Europe, bearing in
:27:50. > :27:55.mind what IDS said? There is a real danger that the balance might be
:27:56. > :28:00.tipped. They are under serious pressure within the party, within
:28:01. > :28:05.the Tory party, and serious pressure in terms of the country. What George
:28:06. > :28:11.Osborne has to set out is some things he demands from the EU, being
:28:12. > :28:15.central to that is that no company or country that isn't in the euro
:28:16. > :28:18.can be discriminated against. He has to come up with some reforms. If
:28:19. > :28:26.they don't come up with a reformed Europe, we are in danger of leaving
:28:27. > :28:31.Europe, with all of that entails. The farmers, the financial sector,
:28:32. > :28:36.that is a very serious matter at stake so George Osborne has quite an
:28:37. > :28:41.important speech tomorrow. A significant speech, and we will be
:28:42. > :28:44.looking at Mr Cameron's demands, still waiting to see those. How do
:28:45. > :28:50.you think the timetable will work-out? Perhaps time is running
:28:51. > :28:54.out before he has to put the proposal before the country. It is
:28:55. > :28:58.and I think we will see a detailed reform package in terms of what
:28:59. > :29:02.Cameron is trying to secure from Europe before the end of the year.
:29:03. > :29:09.What we're seeing at the moment is jockeying for position within the
:29:10. > :29:15.Tory party, this in turn will -- internal Tory politics. We need a
:29:16. > :29:20.positive debate on Europe. I think we need a Scottish debate to stay in
:29:21. > :29:30.the European Union because I don't think we can have a positive debate
:29:31. > :29:35.affected by internal party politics. And we need a debate and a campaign
:29:36. > :29:39.that makes it clear in tangible terms what the EU delivers for
:29:40. > :29:41.people. Shelley will be back
:29:42. > :29:54.at the same time tomorrow night. From everyone on the programme, have
:29:55. > :30:02.a very good night and goodbye for now.
:30:03. > :30:05.Almost a year after the Glasgow bin lorry tragedy,
:30:06. > :30:08.some of the families of those who died break their silence
:30:09. > :30:11.and tell me, Jackie Bird, the impact the crash has had on their lives
:30:12. > :30:15.and why they feel the Scottish justice system has let them down.