:00:00. > :00:08.The driver of the bin lorry that killed
:00:09. > :00:30.six people in Glasgow has apologised for his role in the crash.
:00:31. > :00:34.11 months on from the Glasgow bin lorry crash,
:00:35. > :00:37.some of the relatives of those who died have criticised the Crown
:00:38. > :00:48.And the driver of the lorry says he knows the families will have many
:00:49. > :00:52.And are school pupils from richer backgrounds always destined to
:00:53. > :01:03.It's not often we hear governments being criticised for overambition
:01:04. > :01:05.but that's the conclusion of a report published today
:01:06. > :01:07.into closing the attainment gap in Scotland's schools.
:01:08. > :01:10.The First Minister Nicola Sturgeon recently staked her personal
:01:11. > :01:13.reputation on closing the gap between pupils
:01:14. > :01:20.But the think tank the Commission on School Reform says that
:01:21. > :01:22.the rate of improvement required by the government calls
:01:23. > :01:25.for a pace of change that has never previously been generated
:01:26. > :01:46.These pupils at Dunblane high school have been studying the effect of
:01:47. > :01:48.global poverty. Poverty is also one of the key reasons for the
:01:49. > :01:57.difference in how well children do at school. These first-year pupils
:01:58. > :02:01.are at the start of their time at school and are aware of the
:02:02. > :02:09.importance of doing well. If you don't do very well you might not get
:02:10. > :02:13.as good education. It is quite important that you are educated in
:02:14. > :02:18.everything, not just all the practical stuff like English and
:02:19. > :02:25.maths. That you know history and things like that. Closing the school
:02:26. > :02:30.attainment gap between pupils from the least and most privileged
:02:31. > :02:35.backgrounds has skyrocketed to the top of the political agenda.
:02:36. > :02:40.Everyone agrees it needs to be tackled but coming up with policies
:02:41. > :02:43.to do it has been a colossal challenge. A report has now
:02:44. > :02:52.questioned what has been done so far. It suggests Scotland is in
:02:53. > :02:55.decline compared to other countries. Headteacher Franklin and has been in
:02:56. > :03:04.the profession for many years and helped write the report. If we are
:03:05. > :03:09.looking at a national strategy, the scale of improvement and the pace of
:03:10. > :03:14.improvement required to meet these laudable ambitions, they are going
:03:15. > :03:18.to have to be of a different order altogether to anything we have done
:03:19. > :03:24.before in the past. Improvement will not be enough. If we are going to
:03:25. > :03:29.tackle the issue of closing the gap between these two groups of young
:03:30. > :03:36.people in our schools, school improvement at the current pace is
:03:37. > :03:42.simply not... It is ridiculous to think. We will be here for another
:03:43. > :03:44.40 years. So what are Scotland's political parties offering to close
:03:45. > :04:23.the gap. The SNP political parties offering to close
:04:24. > :04:30.is? The only thing that needs to remain completely untouched is
:04:31. > :04:32.school autonomy. It might be one method but plenty of other models
:04:33. > :06:21.can be learned from. There has method but plenty of other models
:06:22. > :06:23.school schools poverty is on the increase and inevitably that means
:06:24. > :06:30.that the impact in the schools is going to be greater. There is a
:06:31. > :06:35.serious challenge here in terms of how schools try to mitigate the
:06:36. > :06:39.impact of situations in society where inequality is growing.
:06:40. > :06:47.Absolute property is growing. There is a real challenge for everyone
:06:48. > :06:50.involved in education. There is a big idea about introducing national
:06:51. > :06:56.testing in primary schools. Is that going to change things? We are
:06:57. > :07:02.hugely sceptical that introducing testing will improve attainment are
:07:03. > :07:10.generally. It certainly won't improve or close the attainment gap.
:07:11. > :07:15.The testing that exists in primary, all the international evidence
:07:16. > :07:18.shows, unless you make sure that impacts on teaching and learning,
:07:19. > :07:25.making a difference to young people in classrooms, all you do is create
:07:26. > :07:32.an accountability system that can entry and inequalities rather than
:07:33. > :07:37.eradicate them. You do not mention testing in the report. Do you think
:07:38. > :07:41.it will have an affect on closing the attainment gap? If you don't
:07:42. > :07:46.know what you are dealing with, how can you close the gap? The
:07:47. > :07:50.commission will comment on the national improvement framework in
:07:51. > :07:56.due course. Testing in itself will obviously not improve standards.
:07:57. > :08:02.What it might do is provide information to allow schools to
:08:03. > :08:04.improve standards. Where I think the national improvement framework is
:08:05. > :08:11.mistaken is in saying that the kind of testing which is proposed will be
:08:12. > :08:16.diagnostic testing which will help individual teachers to help
:08:17. > :08:20.individual young people. It is far too infrequent and small in scale to
:08:21. > :08:31.do that. Would you'll I to see Morse testing? -- more testing. No. It
:08:32. > :08:37.will enforce the system as a whole. We are lamentably short in the
:08:38. > :08:44.system as a whole. It has a function to fulfil but it will not in itself
:08:45. > :08:47.generate improvement. That could prove the focus back on teachers,
:08:48. > :08:56.some teachers who are not doing well enough. In terms of assessment, we
:08:57. > :09:00.accept that assessment is key to teaching and learning. With the
:09:01. > :09:05.issue of diagnostic testing, I think there is a role for it as part of
:09:06. > :09:10.the range of assessments that teachers use. What we want to see
:09:11. > :09:15.that make is a difference in the classroom. We want to address the
:09:16. > :09:21.lack of information from local authorities. I think there is an
:09:22. > :09:28.approach to that around teacher's professional judgment. Meeting those
:09:29. > :09:32.needs without introducing a system of national testing. That could lead
:09:33. > :09:36.to perverse outcomes, target setting, league tables that
:09:37. > :09:41.curriculum assessments were designed to do away with. We need to make
:09:42. > :09:46.sure we don't introduce something into our schools something that is
:09:47. > :09:53.going to distort the aims we have been working on for ten years. Is
:09:54. > :09:57.that a concern of yours? It is a concern that perverse incentives may
:09:58. > :10:03.enter the system. I don't think that is necessarily an outcome of the
:10:04. > :10:08.kind of standardised assessment that the government is proposing. It is
:10:09. > :10:12.not necessary, for example, for the information to be published at
:10:13. > :10:18.school level. It is sufficient that the information is aggregated up to
:10:19. > :10:26.local authority or national level to see how the system as a whole is
:10:27. > :10:31.performing. Far too often, the focus of inspection is not on policy but
:10:32. > :10:37.how policy is implemented. I am quite confident that the huge
:10:38. > :10:41.majority of teachers are seeking to implement policy as quickly and
:10:42. > :10:51.effectively as they can. I am not always confident that the policy
:10:52. > :10:55.itself is entirely sound. Larry Flanagan, all the parties have their
:10:56. > :11:01.own variation of throwing some money at this problem in the run-up to the
:11:02. > :11:09.election. There is an attainment fun, ?25 million aimed at the most
:11:10. > :11:15.deprived areas. There is deviation in how that money is spent. There is
:11:16. > :11:19.deviation in how it is being spent because it is left to individual
:11:20. > :11:24.schools and local authorities to come up with their own programmes.
:11:25. > :11:30.In a sense, that is useful because it allows autonomy for the schools.
:11:31. > :11:37.There is expectation that that is going to lead to some system change.
:11:38. > :11:43.Not short-term so that the money is used and the games are lost. It is
:11:44. > :11:46.useful that the political parties are addressing this issue and
:11:47. > :11:51.education has this focus but we have to guard against more heat being
:11:52. > :11:56.generated and light. I fully accept that all the political parties are
:11:57. > :12:05.committed to addressing the impact of poverty that we shouldn't have
:12:06. > :12:08.the discourse saying that our schools are failing. I think the
:12:09. > :12:13.report indicates that while the progress may be slower than we
:12:14. > :12:16.hoped, standards are being raised, so we don't want a situation where
:12:17. > :12:22.we are dismissing a lot of the progress that has been made while
:12:23. > :12:28.ignoring the challenges that are there. The First Minister has staked
:12:29. > :12:33.her reputation on closing this attainment gap. Given the criticisms
:12:34. > :12:39.in the report may that have been a little unwise? I think it is
:12:40. > :12:43.comparatively rash. Narrowing the gap would be a laudable and
:12:44. > :12:46.achievable end but I can't see that competently closing the gap is
:12:47. > :12:52.something that will happen in my lifetime, even though she is a lot
:12:53. > :12:57.younger than me, the First Minister's lifetime. Nevertheless,
:12:58. > :12:58.we must strive to do that. We must leave it there. Thank you for coming
:12:59. > :13:01.in. Families of some of those killed
:13:02. > :13:05.in the Glasgow bin lorry crash have been speaking publicly
:13:06. > :13:07.for the first time. They have accused prosecutors of not
:13:08. > :13:10.being aware of the true medical history of the driver, Harry Clarke,
:13:11. > :13:13.when they decided not to charge him The driver
:13:14. > :13:17.of the lorry has also told the BBC he apologies unreservedly
:13:18. > :13:33.for his role in the crash. Three days before Christmas, panic
:13:34. > :13:39.in Glasgow city centre. A bin lorry, with Harry Clarke slump at
:13:40. > :13:44.the wheel careered down Queen Street and crashed into the hotel. Six
:13:45. > :13:54.people were killed and 15 injured. Lucy Ewing was shopping with her
:13:55. > :13:58.mother. I heard quite a loud bang but after that I don't remember much
:13:59. > :14:02.other than being on the road and seeing the bin lorry come up the
:14:03. > :14:11.street towards my mum. Then, obviously, I saw it hit her. Jackie
:14:12. > :14:16.Morton was also killed in the crash. Her son Russell didn't find out for
:14:17. > :14:25.many hours what had happened to her. They said, we have phoned around all
:14:26. > :14:30.of the hospitals. She is not there. There is a possibility that she is
:14:31. > :14:35.at the square. There is a possibility that she could be one of
:14:36. > :14:41.the victims lying in George Square. Nine weeks after the crash the Crown
:14:42. > :14:46.announced it wasn't prosecuting the driver Harry Clarke. Amid a series
:14:47. > :14:51.of meetings to explain the decision, all the family said that Harry
:14:52. > :15:05.Clarke had told them that he had previously fainted in a hot canteen.
:15:06. > :15:07.They uncovered a trail of dishonesty about his health. He had failed to
:15:08. > :15:33.tell Glasgow City Council. We've acquired some of these
:15:34. > :15:39.documents. To the Crown know all of this when it decided not prosecute?
:15:40. > :15:46.When one of the bereaved families heard about the fate at the wheel of
:15:47. > :15:50.the bus, they complain to the Crown. The response said that Crown
:15:51. > :15:56.official David Green didn't recall having made reference to the canteen
:15:57. > :16:00.incident. This man was a former senior prosecutor. I do think that
:16:01. > :16:04.the Crown office rushed to a decision in this particular case.
:16:05. > :16:08.And, I suspect, if they had to do it again, and had held all the
:16:09. > :16:11.information that came out of the inquiry, the decision in relation to
:16:12. > :16:13.Harry Clarke may have been different. Harry Clarke declined to
:16:14. > :16:36.be interviewed for the programme but, in a statement, he said...
:16:37. > :16:43.The Crown office had also decided against any charges under health and
:16:44. > :16:53.safety law. Some of the families have been critical of this. He fell
:16:54. > :16:58.through every safety net to put in place, from doctors, health and
:16:59. > :17:02.safety, to counsel. I tracked down an expert at occupational health to
:17:03. > :17:09.find out whether he agreed there was no health and safety case to answer.
:17:10. > :17:12.So, what avenues were open to them? If an employee takes an action which
:17:13. > :17:18.could damage the public, that is a health and safety issue and there is
:17:19. > :17:23.a specific reference to Missions at work as well, covering not providing
:17:24. > :17:30.information allowing an employer to assess whether or not there are
:17:31. > :17:31.risks from drivers. In a case where the employer wasn't making
:17:32. > :17:35.appropriate checks, didn't have appropriate risk assessment, didn't
:17:36. > :17:39.act on advice from their occupational health adviser, if they
:17:40. > :17:43.were getting at, in those circumstances, under section three
:17:44. > :17:50.of the act, they could be found to be in breach of the act. Elaine
:17:51. > :17:54.survived the crash. She believes the justice system has failed her and
:17:55. > :18:02.those who have lost their lives. I feel very let down. If, by law, he
:18:03. > :18:08.couldn't be charged, there needs to be changes then made to the law.
:18:09. > :18:12.These six people who died, they just can't be gone. They are not here
:18:13. > :18:20.today. ... To speak for themselves. With me now, James Chalmers,
:18:21. > :18:31.Regius Professor of Law at Thank you for coming in this
:18:32. > :18:37.evening. Were you surprised the Crown office announced... It took
:18:38. > :18:43.them nine weeks to decide they were not going to prosecute Harry Clarke.
:18:44. > :18:45.Is that unusual? It was an unusually quick decision. The speed of it
:18:46. > :18:50.doesn't necessarily tell you whether it has been properly or not. That
:18:51. > :18:53.should be demonstrated through full reasons given for that but what we
:18:54. > :18:57.have is a very short and terse statement saying there is no
:18:58. > :19:02.evidence of crime and we are moving on. Can you understand why that
:19:03. > :19:07.might have fuelled some unhappiness amongst the families who felt due
:19:08. > :19:10.consideration why not have been taken? What we've seen from the
:19:11. > :19:13.report in the documentary earlier today is that some of the families
:19:14. > :19:20.feel there was information coming out for the first time at the F AI,
:19:21. > :19:24.and if the Crown office had told them that this is what we know and
:19:25. > :19:27.this is what we feel we can prove, and this is why it doesn't amount to
:19:28. > :19:32.a crime and we couldn't get a conviction, things would have looked
:19:33. > :19:37.different but it would have been difficult to her hear that at the
:19:38. > :19:43.FAI. We heard the professor talking about the prospect, he thought there
:19:44. > :19:48.might be a prosecution under health and safety legislation. What is your
:19:49. > :19:51.view? The Crown office said they didn't think there were grounds for
:19:52. > :20:02.prosecuting the city council under health and safety. It is being dealt
:20:03. > :20:06.with purely in reference to causing death by dangerous driving. When
:20:07. > :20:11.they gave detail about exactly why they thought there would be a
:20:12. > :20:17.prosecution under health and safety, there's not been the level of detail
:20:18. > :20:23.you'd expect from the explanation. And, do you think they could be any
:20:24. > :20:28.chance, realistic chance, of a conviction even under criminal law?
:20:29. > :20:31.The problem is that you have somebody who clearly didn't declare
:20:32. > :20:37.information to the DVLA, which they are under obligation to declare, but
:20:38. > :20:41.there is a time limit under that offence. What happened last year
:20:42. > :20:48.happened a long time after that, and the Crown position, even if he had
:20:49. > :20:55.done what he had done, we have to prove he is acting dangerously on
:20:56. > :20:58.the day of the offence. But we cannot prove that on the day he
:20:59. > :21:03.actually met the standard required for a probable conviction. There
:21:04. > :21:08.have been suggestions from some of the families about the prospect of a
:21:09. > :21:12.private prosecution. Is that a realistic prospect, in your view?
:21:13. > :21:20.They need to get permission from the court to do that. That has happened
:21:21. > :21:27.very rarely. Of the court has never gone against the Crown's decision.
:21:28. > :21:29.In cases where it has happened, it's where the Crown has chosen not to
:21:30. > :21:33.bring a prosecution or thought there was no evidence to do so, so it
:21:34. > :21:41.would be breaking new ground and it is up to the prosecution to make
:21:42. > :21:45.that decision. So it'll be difficult. I would be surprised if
:21:46. > :21:48.permission would be granted, but we have to listen to the arguments.
:21:49. > :21:56.Thank you for coming in this evening. NSB is voted overwhelmingly
:21:57. > :22:00.condemning fluky government's plan to renew Trident. It followed a
:22:01. > :22:05.similar vote at the Scottish Labour Party conference. The only MSP to
:22:06. > :22:14.vote against it was Jackie Baillie. Many of those in Faslane live in her
:22:15. > :22:19.constituency. There are 6800 people directly employed at Faslane by the
:22:20. > :22:23.MoD and its contractors. My source for that figure is an FOIA request
:22:24. > :22:32.made to the MoD in September last year. A study commissioned
:22:33. > :22:34.identified an extra 4500 jobs in the supply chain and the local economy.
:22:35. > :22:39.That is 11,300 people. With me now to discuss some
:22:40. > :22:42.of the day's news are the journalist and Green Party member Louise
:22:43. > :22:55.Batchelor and Sam Ghibaldan a former Welcome. It is perhaps not
:22:56. > :23:00.surprising, Louise, that Jackie Baillie voted the way she did, given
:23:01. > :23:05.Faslane, a lot of the workers are in her constituency, but more sub --
:23:06. > :23:12.surprising that the Scottish Labour leader voted for the motion. She saw
:23:13. > :23:17.the way the wind was blowing. So it is excellent shoes made this
:23:18. > :23:22.decision. It has been a proud day for Scotland, speaking as a Scottish
:23:23. > :23:27.Green. But it has. It might not count for much in terms of deciding
:23:28. > :23:30.the policy at UK level, but, then again, it may and the world will be
:23:31. > :23:39.watching and listening and we have the situation where Kezia Dugdale is
:23:40. > :23:43.at odds with her party, and Jeremy Corbyn is at odds with his party,
:23:44. > :23:52.and they might come around. The big Commons vote is next year. I can
:23:53. > :23:55.understand Jackie Baillie taking a stand on jobs but that isn't to say
:23:56. > :23:59.the rest of us aren't concerned about the jobs in that part of the
:24:00. > :24:05.vol Pogba has to be another way of approaching them and finding
:24:06. > :24:10.alternatives. I wonder, Sam, a lot of talking politics these days is
:24:11. > :24:14.about authenticity. Will it help Kezia Dugdale as a leader to have
:24:15. > :24:18.voted against something we all know she doesn't believe in? She was
:24:19. > :24:24.caught between a rock and a hard place because her party at the
:24:25. > :24:31.weekend chose a policy decision against Trident which we know she is
:24:32. > :24:37.at best uncomfortable with. Equally, this is the first test of her party
:24:38. > :24:40.in its new, slightly more autonomous relationship with the UK Labour
:24:41. > :24:44.Party so she couldn't vote against the party decision. She had no
:24:45. > :24:49.choice. In terms of labour going forward, it is quite interesting
:24:50. > :24:53.because I doubt very much this will make a huge difference to the
:24:54. > :25:00.electoral fortunes in Scotland. If you look at polls, people who
:25:01. > :25:06.support the nonrenewal of Trident, they tend to be SNP supporters and
:25:07. > :25:09.Green supporters. And the split is equal between people who want it
:25:10. > :25:16.renewed and who don't want it. I'm not at all convinced right and is
:25:17. > :25:22.necessarily the primary motivating factor. The good thing is that it
:25:23. > :25:29.does perhaps mark the start of a journey towards a new confident and
:25:30. > :25:34.self-assured position in this new landscape, slightly more independent
:25:35. > :25:38.from the UK counterparts. The greens called on SNP and Labour both to go
:25:39. > :25:45.even further and to go even further and oppose Nato for a long time the
:25:46. > :25:50.SNP held. Is there a contradiction in backing Nato while voting to
:25:51. > :25:55.scrap Trident? Not at all. I know everyone says Nato is about nuclear
:25:56. > :25:59.deterrents, but it isn't. There are plenty of members of Nato that don't
:26:00. > :26:04.have a nuclear deterrent and it is time we joined them, so no
:26:05. > :26:08.contradiction whatsoever. But it is time to look at diversification, not
:26:09. > :26:13.time to sit on our hands and say, well, sorry, but you'll have to find
:26:14. > :26:16.something you to do. It is time to have a review of defence jobs that
:26:17. > :26:20.they will be able to do in the future that don't involve a nuclear
:26:21. > :26:25.deterrent. Well, David Cameron will continue to make the case broke
:26:26. > :26:27.standing military action in Syria, after foreign affairs select
:26:28. > :26:29.committee report advising the prime in Syria, after foreign affairs
:26:30. > :26:32.select committee report advising the promised of against voting in
:26:33. > :26:37.parliament in the issue. One Tory MPs said the proposed action was
:26:38. > :26:40.misunderstood. We are bringing a specific capability with those
:26:41. > :26:45.tornadoes that the rest of the coalition do not have, and that is
:26:46. > :26:50.all that is. It is not a huge bombing campaign. It is merely
:26:51. > :26:53.adding to what we have got. We stand shoulder to shoulder with the
:26:54. > :27:00.Australians and with the French and the US. That is very important. I
:27:01. > :27:03.want to see this go through. The foreign affairs select committee has
:27:04. > :27:06.a majority of Tory MPs so are you surprised by the stance they've
:27:07. > :27:11.taken on military action in Syria? Not really, not when you see the
:27:12. > :27:15.long list of objections or reservations against taking action.
:27:16. > :27:21.Which the greens would entirely agree with. We are not in favour of
:27:22. > :27:24.waiting into these kinds of disputes anywhere but in particular not in
:27:25. > :27:30.Syria where, which ever way you look at it, you can only make matters
:27:31. > :27:36.worse. Do we end up supporting Assad, which we are not in favour of
:27:37. > :27:40.doing? Do we try to go in with these targeted attacks? They never work,
:27:41. > :27:45.there is always collateral damage, we always make things worse. The
:27:46. > :27:48.other thing the committee look at is what is going to happen on the
:27:49. > :27:53.ground, what will be the territory, who will be the ground forces that
:27:54. > :27:57.will take over and manage and rule. The other concern is went to make
:27:58. > :28:04.ISAs stronger and even more defined? How embarrassing is this for the
:28:05. > :28:11.prime Minister? I think it is actually... The very small Tory
:28:12. > :28:17.majority is starting to tell. It is quite significant the UK Tory
:28:18. > :28:22.government and party can't persuade people in its own side to back its
:28:23. > :28:24.position. That said, another way to look at this is it is very good
:28:25. > :28:27.position. That said, another way to see house of commons select
:28:28. > :28:31.committee doing its job properly, coming up with a thorough and robust
:28:32. > :28:36.report. It is quite interesting when you look at what they did say. They
:28:37. > :28:42.didn't say we shouldn't bomb Syria. They said before
:28:43. > :29:09.Let's hope we can find some concerted way to achieve actions
:29:10. > :29:17.that will need military intervention and also Hearts and minds. Both are
:29:18. > :29:22.essential. I think the nature of Isis, you're not going to defeat
:29:23. > :29:26.them peacefully. I'm afraid that is where we will have to leave it.