:00:00. > :00:23.On tonight's programme we're talking Lockerbie, privacy and fruit.
:00:24. > :00:28.Balancing our right to privacy with the need for security
:00:29. > :00:35.Can we trust politicians to get it right?
:00:36. > :00:38.A daily dose of free fruit for primary kids is just what
:00:39. > :00:49.But are we asking too much of our schools?
:00:50. > :00:52.We learned today that there will not be a fresh appeal against the
:00:53. > :00:57.The Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission has decided not to refer
:00:58. > :01:06.It believes members of the family of Abdelbaset al-Megrahi, the only
:01:07. > :01:09.man convicted of the 1988 atrocity, are not actively pursuing the case.
:01:10. > :01:12.The High Court in Edinburgh had earlier rejected a request by UK
:01:13. > :01:20.In a judgment in July 2015, it ruled they could not trigger a
:01:21. > :01:25.In a statement issued today The Scottish Criminal Cases Review
:01:26. > :02:11.I'm joined now from Brighton by John Ashton who wrote a book
:02:12. > :02:20.about Megrahi, The Lockerbie Bomber, and interviewed him in person.
:02:21. > :02:27.What is actually going on here? Is the family of Megrahi actively
:02:28. > :02:35.pursuing this case? It depends what you mean by actively. They don't
:02:36. > :02:39.live in Scotland, they don't have legal representation, formally, as I
:02:40. > :02:45.understand. Anybody who lives in Libya is just trying to survive. I'm
:02:46. > :02:48.don't see how they collectively pursue an appeal. What about the
:02:49. > :02:53.defence papers, why have they not been forthcoming? This is critical.
:02:54. > :02:57.One of the reasons they are not going to proceed with this is
:02:58. > :03:03.because it says it is not able to get to the bottom of why Mr Megrahi
:03:04. > :03:09.abandoned his last appeal. We could easily do that by asking me for the
:03:10. > :03:15.papers. I have, for instance, because Megrahi gave them to me. Why
:03:16. > :03:21.would they ask you for them? They have asked the family's solicitor.
:03:22. > :03:24.They have asked him, and in principle he is prepared to provide
:03:25. > :03:29.them. But he has asked them what their legal basis is for asking
:03:30. > :03:33.them. He cannot just hand over papers in that way. He is keen to
:03:34. > :03:37.help them, but they did not provide him with information about the legal
:03:38. > :03:43.basis for which they were asking. Moreover... Is your view then that
:03:44. > :03:47.it has been too hasty of the commission to come to this
:03:48. > :03:51.decision? It is hasty and incompetent. They could have got
:03:52. > :03:57.these papers quite easily by approaching me. If they wanted to
:03:58. > :04:01.get to the bottom of why Mr Megrahi abandoned his appeal because of
:04:02. > :04:05.interviewed his previous solicitor, they could've interviewed me. Have
:04:06. > :04:09.an affidavit from me, they have paperwork that indicates I had
:04:10. > :04:12.interviewed Mr Megrahi and got his side of the story. I am a witness in
:04:13. > :04:16.this case and they have not bothered to contact me. Tony Kelly is a
:04:17. > :04:22.witness and they have not contacted him. Will you give these papers to
:04:23. > :04:26.the commission now? Gladly, but it seems it is a bit too late. Because
:04:27. > :04:31.could have approached me well over a year ago for these but they failed.
:04:32. > :04:33.John Ashton, thank you for joining me.
:04:34. > :04:38.We want the police and secret agencies to monitor and prosecute
:04:39. > :04:44.But how do they know who is suspicious
:04:45. > :04:49.The Government's draft bill on the interception
:04:50. > :04:52.of communications aims to lay out the powers of the spies, and the
:04:53. > :05:06.Whether it is smart CCTV systems like the one reported to be coming
:05:07. > :05:09.to Glasgow... You can run the search across a vast number of cameras and
:05:10. > :05:16.locations to find a person of interest within minutes. Plans to
:05:17. > :05:20.hold everyone's Internet activity on file for a year, or are leaving
:05:21. > :05:26.security services to hack computers anywhere in the world to protect
:05:27. > :05:30.national security, the justification is always that the powers are needed
:05:31. > :05:36.to keep us safe from a growing threat. Mr Speaker, the legislation
:05:37. > :05:39.we are proposing today is unprecedented. It will provide
:05:40. > :05:42.unparalleled openness and transparency about our investigatory
:05:43. > :05:47.Powers, it will provide the strongest safeguards and world
:05:48. > :05:50.leading oversight regulations, and give the men and women of our
:05:51. > :05:55.security and intelligence agencies and law-enforcement agencies, who do
:05:56. > :06:01.so much to keep us safe and secure, the powers they need to protect our
:06:02. > :06:04.country. This is MI5 headquarters. For the past ten years spooks year
:06:05. > :06:06.have been receiving bulk records of all domestic phone calls. Not what
:06:07. > :06:33.was all domestic phone calls. Not what
:06:34. > :06:37.years, following act of Parliament so vague that most anything could be
:06:38. > :06:41.done under it. It was not illegal, it is just that the law was so broad
:06:42. > :06:46.as the information was so slight that nobody knew it was happening.
:06:47. > :06:50.It seems to me that was anti-democratic. Surely government
:06:51. > :06:54.plans today to set out the powers of intelligence agencies in a new bill
:06:55. > :06:55.are welcome. We are really concerned there are no basic safeguards in
:06:56. > :08:59.there whatsoever. We heard rumours there are no basic safeguards in
:09:00. > :09:07.the safeguards that to reason me is proposing in the new draft Bill? --
:09:08. > :09:15.Theresa May. Yell might not get. This is an advance on what the
:09:16. > :09:17.Liberal Democrats and blocked. That was termed the snooper's charter and
:09:18. > :09:20.would have been an egregious reduction of civil liberties across
:09:21. > :09:24.the country. We were proud that we did do that because the case had not
:09:25. > :09:28.been made. The case is not fully been made on these proposals, and I
:09:29. > :09:35.think they will want very considerable scrutiny, and certainly
:09:36. > :09:38.Liberal Democrat MPs and peers will be Hawks in making sure this is
:09:39. > :09:43.scrutinised to the best of our ability. Is something you think the
:09:44. > :09:47.general public is concerned about? It must be a good thing if we can
:09:48. > :09:53.stop terrorists, and there is some evidence that surveillance measures
:09:54. > :09:59.are stopping attacks from taking place. In many respects the public
:10:00. > :10:05.are often only aware of these when have been abuses of our liberties
:10:06. > :10:07.and our freedoms, when there have been law-enforcement agencies that
:10:08. > :10:14.have gone well beyond their powers, weather has been exploitation of the
:10:15. > :10:18.drafting of legislation, and often it is after the event that we find
:10:19. > :10:23.out about it. Our rulers parliamentarians is to make sure
:10:24. > :10:26.there is full scrutiny. We have had too many cases over recent months
:10:27. > :10:31.and years, including the peace in your package about the reports that
:10:32. > :10:37.Police Scotland are using inappropriate powers, I think those
:10:38. > :10:41.examples should give us pause to make sure that the presumption
:10:42. > :10:47.should always be the freedom and liberty of our activities, of what
:10:48. > :10:53.we do, whether it is online or in conversations with other people.
:10:54. > :10:57.There is the balance of law and order and security, but the
:10:58. > :11:00.presumption should all would-be first that it is freedom and liberty
:11:01. > :11:03.for ourselves, and then the appropriate powers with absolute
:11:04. > :11:10.oversight and accountability, not the other way around. We have only
:11:11. > :11:14.just found out that MI5 secretly collected all this data for over a
:11:15. > :11:17.decade on UK phone calls. It sounds alarming, but the New Year that the
:11:18. > :11:25.data was used to track terrorists and save lives. We have to take the
:11:26. > :11:28.word of our student services, but we should scrutinise them also. We have
:11:29. > :11:34.moved beyond 20 years ago when we barely recognise the existence and
:11:35. > :11:39.to get on trust. We should have much stronger legislative regulation of
:11:40. > :11:47.it. The example of Police Scotland is a very good one. When I was a
:11:48. > :11:52.member of the Scottish Parliament, myself and others negotiated with
:11:53. > :11:58.their First Minister and others about DNA retention. They said we
:11:59. > :12:01.should detain all DNA samples from those who had been arrested not
:12:02. > :12:06.prosecuted because that would prevent crime. We blocked that, did
:12:07. > :12:09.not happen, and has not been a big ballooning of crime, and civil
:12:10. > :12:14.liberties have been protected. Liberal Democrats will always have
:12:15. > :12:16.as our priority. Thank you, we must leave it there.
:12:17. > :12:20.Would an apple a day - or perhaps a carrot - have any impact
:12:21. > :12:23.Doctors are calling for all primary school children to
:12:24. > :12:25.be given a free portion of fruit or vegetables every day.
:12:26. > :12:28.The British Medical Association in Scotland has made
:12:29. > :12:30.the proposal in its manifesto for the Scottish Parliament
:12:31. > :12:46.Good morning, this is fruit Thursday. In Inverclyde primary
:12:47. > :12:50.skill children get fruit snack time, and it is free. Children their first
:12:51. > :12:56.three years of primary school get free school meals, ironically, that
:12:57. > :12:59.means many schools have cut back on providing free fruit and vegetables
:13:00. > :13:04.during snack times. There are 32 councils in Scotland. Last year
:13:05. > :13:11.Inverclyde was one of 16 providing free fruit. By this year it was one
:13:12. > :13:22.of just 11 still offering it. I like apples and bananas and grapes. It is
:13:23. > :13:31.healthy. And they make you strong. And big. And gives you strength. The
:13:32. > :13:34.largest organisation representing doctors in Scotland is as old
:13:35. > :13:39.primary school children should get free fruit, and they want
:13:40. > :13:43.politicians to make that pledge for next May's Scottish parliament
:13:44. > :13:45.elections. It is potentially a very important intervention because
:13:46. > :13:50.you're forming dietary habits in childhood. And we can help people to
:13:51. > :13:55.eat fruit and vegetables rather than unhealthy snacks, which of course
:13:56. > :13:59.are extremely widely available in and around schools, then we can lay
:14:00. > :14:05.down habits for the future and make a difference in the long-term to a
:14:06. > :14:08.person's health. Some children here had never tried some of the fruit
:14:09. > :14:10.before coming to school, but now they all take a piece, and they all
:14:11. > :14:15.told me... I love it! I'm joined now by Iain Ellis Chair
:14:16. > :14:18.of the National Parents Forum of Scotland and in London is
:14:19. > :14:58.Tam Fry, Spokesperson People are saying parents should
:14:59. > :15:02.give their fruit from year one, but so many do not, and when they arrive
:15:03. > :15:09.at school the taste fruit for the first time, and you can see the joy
:15:10. > :15:13.in their voices. Is this really the responsibility of schools? What
:15:14. > :15:18.about parents? Everybody would probably agree it is a good thing to
:15:19. > :15:24.do it, but is it the main thing that education should be used for was mac
:15:25. > :15:29.iPhone it quite exceptional that everything -- I found it quite
:15:30. > :15:33.exceptional that everything is being put on education. And for the BMA to
:15:34. > :15:39.say that, what are they actually doing? We already in Scotland have
:15:40. > :15:43.free school meals for kids in primary one after primary three. Is
:15:44. > :15:49.that not enough? Is that not more meaningful initiative? It is a very
:15:50. > :15:53.good initiative, and you can give them free food at the time of the
:15:54. > :15:57.school meal, but there are snack occasions, and certainly young
:15:58. > :16:01.children need snacks. They do not need the snacks they have been
:16:02. > :16:08.perhaps chewing on optional mode which are full of sugar and things
:16:09. > :16:11.like that. Much better they should have fruit at snack time, this would
:16:12. > :16:18.be ideal opportunity to introduce them to the fruit. I guess nobody is
:16:19. > :16:22.disputing that it is good for them to need food, but there is a
:16:23. > :16:25.question of affordability. At the moment you out of 32 councils are
:16:26. > :16:31.providing free fruit, that is down on what it used to be. Perhaps they
:16:32. > :16:39.can afford it. My own authority used to do it, and it was five days a
:16:40. > :16:45.week and emotive wastage was unbelievable. Should we be supplying
:16:46. > :16:47.it? A couple of days a week, yes, but we have got to look at the
:16:48. > :16:52.bigger picture, financial and arriving. The key part that schools
:16:53. > :16:56.have to play is that they need to bring in the education and educate
:16:57. > :17:00.the children. And the parents. Parents need to take it on the
:17:01. > :17:04.shoulder as well and say, this is an issue not just for school to deal
:17:05. > :17:10.with, because at the end of the day we as parents have children more
:17:11. > :17:15.than anybody else. And I'm wondering, if there is money needing
:17:16. > :17:18.to be spent on bigger issues like the attainment gap, which is in the
:17:19. > :17:23.headlines so much at the moment, is this a priority? Is there actually
:17:24. > :17:31.evidence that an initiative like this makes an impact? Certainly
:17:32. > :17:34.south of the border we have evidence, we have been giving
:17:35. > :17:39.children free fruit for a long time, and the actual value of that has
:17:40. > :17:43.been charted and the literature has been written. It has been found to
:17:44. > :17:48.be successful and it continues. I would say that the purchase of a few
:17:49. > :17:53.pieces of fruit as a percentage of the price of the school meal is very
:17:54. > :17:58.small. You will have some wastage, that is fresher, that is
:17:59. > :18:01.regrettable. But in the end you will find that you have less and less
:18:02. > :18:06.wastage as the children take on the benefits of having fruit. We must
:18:07. > :18:08.leave it there for this evening. Thanks to you both.
:18:09. > :18:11.A major new exhibition celebrating the work of Scotland's women artists
:18:12. > :18:18.It's the first time an exhibition entirely devoted to
:18:19. > :18:22.women has been staged with work by 45 artists over 80 years.
:18:23. > :18:24.The show underlines the peculiar challenges women faced
:18:25. > :18:38.in making work, as our Arts Correspondent reports.
:18:39. > :18:43.Being an artist isn't easy, and for women there was the added challenge
:18:44. > :18:48.of having no access to art education until the middle of the 19th
:18:49. > :18:52.century. Even those whose husbands and fathers were artists as well had
:18:53. > :18:58.to consider their at a hobby, or use only their surname to be taken
:18:59. > :19:02.seriously. Being Royal did not make it any easier. Princess Louise was
:19:03. > :19:08.Queen Victoria's. , and the first member of the Royal Family to go to
:19:09. > :19:13.art college. Like all women, she discovered that art education had
:19:14. > :19:17.its limitations. Women were unable to attend life drawing classes until
:19:18. > :19:27.the 1900, and even then they were shy segregated and chaperoned. And
:19:28. > :19:29.that breakthrough did not change the culture which still assumed that
:19:30. > :19:35.women should only tackle certain subjects, as the artist Joan Edley
:19:36. > :19:40.discovered in the 1950s with a nude painting of a male friend. The fact
:19:41. > :19:45.that she had painted a man, a friend, lying naked on a bed, they
:19:46. > :19:50.just thought it was the most terrible thing. Hadn't been a man
:19:51. > :19:54.painting a woman, there would have been nothing done about it. But
:19:55. > :19:59.unfortunately the mail at critics of the time just took it apart. Not
:20:00. > :20:13.because it wasn't a good painting, because it is fabulous, but because
:20:14. > :20:19.it was a woman doing it. Joan didn't paint another note, but others did.
:20:20. > :20:30.Like the men around them, no subject was ruled out. It was radical for a
:20:31. > :20:36.woman to be working unchaperoned in the 1880s. You have stylish
:20:37. > :20:46.portraits, you have paintings of the concentration camp when it was
:20:47. > :20:50.liberated. It was painted with great bravery. Also paintings of sheer
:20:51. > :20:54.abstraction. And sheer beauty. Today's women artists have equal
:20:55. > :21:01.access to education facilities, but they still face many of the same
:21:02. > :21:06.challenges as those early pioneers. At times, family had to come first.
:21:07. > :21:11.Nowadays it is a lot easier. I think women artists have always struggled
:21:12. > :21:19.to get the time and recognition and just be able to work on equal terms.
:21:20. > :21:24.Each artwork tells a different story, many untold until now. This
:21:25. > :21:29.was the first woman appointed rector of Glasgow School of Art, but died
:21:30. > :21:40.before she could take up the post. This sculptor studied under Auguste
:21:41. > :21:46.Rodin. There are issues that women have had to suffer as a result of
:21:47. > :21:52.their gender. By looking at those issues, we can approach and
:21:53. > :21:54.otherwise familiar chapter of our history in a new and hopefully
:21:55. > :21:58.inspiring way. Joining me now to discuss
:21:59. > :22:01.the rest of the day's news are Observer columnist Kevin McKenna and
:22:02. > :22:16.author and journalist Katie Grant. Welcome to you both. Let's start
:22:17. > :22:20.with the story from earlier, free fruit for primary school children.
:22:21. > :22:24.That is the proposal. To you think this is something else schools
:22:25. > :22:30.should be doing? Think it is nice that Freuchie be part of the school
:22:31. > :22:34.day, but in some ways it might be more useful to give them fruit than
:22:35. > :22:37.endless computers. I hope they won't give them fruit and expect that to
:22:38. > :22:44.be yet. It looked as though the primary school in the package were
:22:45. > :22:51.cutting it up and making it look nice, I think it would be nice if
:22:52. > :22:55.they had a graph to show you what chips do you do to you and what
:22:56. > :23:03.fruit do to you. That would be real education. My own children are
:23:04. > :23:07.supposed to have healthy free school meals, but often he comes home and
:23:08. > :23:18.tells me he has had pizza and strawberry milk. I wonder what will
:23:19. > :23:24.happen after the novelty disappears. I know several people who have
:23:25. > :23:31.children at various schools and there doesn't seem to be any
:23:32. > :23:39.uniformity or at evens to lay down minimum of nutrients and balance you
:23:40. > :23:41.will have in your annual. That is because the deliveries are the
:23:42. > :23:46.responsibility of each local authority. The matter what the
:23:47. > :23:49.national government does, local authorities will make spending
:23:50. > :23:55.cuts. They will choose what the priorities are. It is all very well
:23:56. > :24:01.to say, yes, we will give them all fruit, but there are lots of
:24:02. > :24:07.households and local authorities with higher than average numbers of
:24:08. > :24:11.per household is. I would be more concerned about young children
:24:12. > :24:17.coming to school without having had anything to eat, perhaps not going
:24:18. > :24:23.to eat for another day or so, and just make sure they have something.
:24:24. > :24:26.Unfortunately a lot of those children will turn their nose up at
:24:27. > :24:32.fruit and veg in favour of a hamburger and chips. I would prepare
:24:33. > :24:36.cash preferred they had that than nothing at all. I accept that
:24:37. > :24:41.children need more than fruit, but there is lots of imaginative stuff
:24:42. > :24:45.you can do. You can teach them about the seasons. You don't need exotic
:24:46. > :24:51.fruitful stop make it part of an educational lesson. It doesn't have
:24:52. > :24:55.to be this thing you give to children because it is good for
:24:56. > :24:59.them. If you give it to children like that, they are likely to turn
:25:00. > :25:11.their nose up. It will just be something else you get at school,
:25:12. > :25:14.really. Let's move on. The war of words moved on regarding tax credit
:25:15. > :25:16.cuts. At First Minister's Questions today,
:25:17. > :25:18.Kezia Dugdale pressed Nicola Sturgeon to say
:25:19. > :25:29.whether she would pledge to restore Under the Scottish Government's
:25:30. > :25:33.proposal, will every single family receive the same entitlement from
:25:34. > :25:38.the government as they do now? And not quite sure what it is that is
:25:39. > :25:42.difficult to understand. I don't accept these cuts will take place.
:25:43. > :25:46.There is pressure building on George Osborne to reverse them. Right now,
:25:47. > :25:54.that is where we should be united in making sure the pressure stays on
:25:55. > :25:59.the Tories. If George Osborne does the wrong thing, we will come
:26:00. > :26:03.forward with credible proposals to protect low-income families. ,
:26:04. > :26:07.people around this country who are worried about about their tax
:26:08. > :26:11.credits deserve more than slogans. They deserve detail from a
:26:12. > :26:14.government that they now can deliver.
:26:15. > :26:16.But last night on this programme, the SNP's Social Justice Secretary
:26:17. > :26:29.We will ensure that their income does not fall as a result of any
:26:30. > :26:33.changes to the tax credit along the line already proposed by the Tories.
:26:34. > :26:40.What do you take from that? Last night, Alex Neil appeared to be
:26:41. > :26:45.saying that he agreed with Labour. Alex Neil was coming up with the
:26:46. > :26:48.detail that Nicola Sturgeon was accusing Labour of not possessing.
:26:49. > :26:58.Scottish Labour has said that in order to fund this they would first
:26:59. > :27:02.of all the cat claiming it from air passenger duty and taxing higher
:27:03. > :27:07.earners. The SNP are saying we will wait and see. If you are a cynic,
:27:08. > :27:13.you would say that is a delaying tactic. We don't know when the
:27:14. > :27:17.Chancellor will deliver because for two weeks in a row, David Cameron
:27:18. > :27:23.has answered the same question in the House of Commons and said wait
:27:24. > :27:30.and see to all and sundry. Do you think the SNP or on the back foot
:27:31. > :27:35.year? Watching that for the second time, I thought Nicola Sturgeon did
:27:36. > :27:40.look a bit on the back foot. For the Labour Party and the SNP, this is
:27:41. > :27:45.pure politics. It has sort of moved beyond tax credits. All the
:27:46. > :27:48.interested in doing now is discrediting the Tories and each
:27:49. > :27:54.other. It has become a purely political thing. We don't robot
:27:55. > :27:59.either will actually do. Haven't the Scottish Conservatives been left off
:28:00. > :28:06.the hook year? I think that is what Katie was getting at. It suggests
:28:07. > :28:12.the curious image of three bald men fighting over a comb. We have two
:28:13. > :28:18.left of centre parties in Scotland is destined to be ruled by them.
:28:19. > :28:23.They are in broad agreement that the rim opposition to the concept of the
:28:24. > :28:26.Conservatives. Listening to that debate and listing the other week,
:28:27. > :28:32.people who are looking for clarity, those who will be most affected,
:28:33. > :28:36.will not find it in those debates in Hollywood. Scotland is expected to
:28:37. > :28:43.take about a third of the 1000 Syrian refugees due to arrive in the
:28:44. > :28:52.UK before Christmas. Is this a good thing? It is only 350 people. It is
:28:53. > :28:57.not a lot. I think Scotland will cope pretty well. The bit of the
:28:58. > :29:00.rhetoric at don't like is when Scotland is Kenneth held up as being
:29:01. > :29:08.much nicer than the rest of the world. 350 people does not turn us
:29:09. > :29:13.into some huge charity. I hope the Syrians will be welcomed here and
:29:14. > :29:17.we'll find a good life here. I am afraid that is where we have to
:29:18. > :29:18.leave at this evening. Thank you for coming in.
:29:19. > :29:21.That's all from us for this week. Thanks for watching.
:29:22. > :29:23.I'll be back same time on Monday night.
:29:24. > :29:35.Do please join me then. Goodbye.
:29:36. > :29:44.DRUMBEAT INTRO One, two, three, four!
:29:45. > :29:53.Battery life on smartphones is the best thing about them,
:29:54. > :29:56.cos when the battery runs out, then I'll interact with my kids.
:29:57. > :29:58.We're down the park, I'm like, "Well, that's run out.
:29:59. > :30:02."Better find out where they're going with those old men."