:00:00. > :00:22.More powers for Scotland, but do they go far enough?
:00:23. > :00:25.Hello. On tonight's programme -
:00:26. > :00:28.Has the much-debated "Vow" been delivered
:00:29. > :00:30.and can the Scotland Bill settle the constitutional question -
:00:31. > :00:36.We'll have live political reaction and analysis.
:00:37. > :00:39.The Prime Minister sets out his case for EU reform tomorrow.
:00:40. > :00:43.How will it go down with the other 27 member states?
:00:44. > :00:46.And the former Scottish Secretary admits he didn't tell
:00:47. > :00:50.an official inquiry the truth about leaking the Nicola Sturgeon memo
:00:51. > :01:00.until five days after he was re-elected to Parliament.
:01:01. > :01:02.The Scotland Bill is making its final passage through
:01:03. > :01:08.Nearly 200 amendments to the bill were tabled for discussion.
:01:09. > :01:12.MPs have voted against an SNP amendment giving Holyrood power to
:01:13. > :01:16.call a future referendum on Scottish independence.
:01:17. > :01:20.Our Westminster correspondent Tim Reid is at Millbank.
:01:21. > :01:23.Tim, can you take a moment and just expain to us what was
:01:24. > :01:27.originally agreed by the all-party Smith Commission compared to
:01:28. > :01:33.the bill that is going through the House of Commons just now?
:01:34. > :01:41.I think there is no doubt that the bill is a lot closer to the Smith
:01:42. > :01:52.recommendations than when it was first published. The Smith
:01:53. > :01:55.recommendationsabout a share of the 80 revenues being devolved to
:01:56. > :01:59.Scotland, air passenger duty, although things are contained in the
:02:00. > :02:04.bill clearly and much argument has been had about them over the course
:02:05. > :02:08.of its passage through the House of Commons. Lots of votes have been
:02:09. > :02:12.had, lots of amendments put forward. And because the UK
:02:13. > :02:17.Government put forward its 100 amendments at the beginning of last
:02:18. > :02:21.week which put the bill closer to Smith, it has received a warm
:02:22. > :02:25.welcome tonight than it had originally. Still the SNP believe
:02:26. > :02:31.there are things in that bill which do not go as close to Smith as they
:02:32. > :02:46.would like to and do not live up to the flower. The UK Government is
:02:47. > :02:56.convinced, it says, that it delivers the Vow. My colleague looks at the
:02:57. > :03:00.debate. One of the most significant events
:03:01. > :03:04.in Scottish devolution. The government backs Smith Commission
:03:05. > :03:09.push the case to strengthen Holyrood. That resulted in the
:03:10. > :03:17.Scotland Bill, which completed its final stage in the Commons. Pete
:03:18. > :03:22.Wishart began with a complaint from the SNP that not enough time had
:03:23. > :03:26.been allocated. Scotland is watching these proceedings and will not
:03:27. > :03:32.understand the gross disrespect shown to us. I acknowledge the
:03:33. > :03:41.honourable member's anger. He is always angry at something. And then
:03:42. > :03:45.it was onto the bill itself, as championed by the Scottish
:03:46. > :03:50.Secretary. This is a significant day for Scotland as we move the debate
:03:51. > :03:54.about our country's future from questions of constitutional process
:03:55. > :03:58.and onto the real business of using power to improve lives. But the SNP
:03:59. > :04:05.said that the legislation had failed to live up to what was promised. We
:04:06. > :04:12.heard from the former prime, Gordon Brown, near federalism, within a
:04:13. > :04:17.year or two, as close to a federal state as can be. You can call the
:04:18. > :04:25.legislation many things but it is not a charter for federalism. It is
:04:26. > :04:30.a long, long way away from that. MPs spent a large chunk of the evening
:04:31. > :04:35.debating last-minute amendments including beat evolution of further
:04:36. > :04:38.financial powers. That is Labour's earlier concern that the bill was
:04:39. > :04:44.failing to live up to what was promised. Given that the Minister
:04:45. > :04:51.has laid those amendments this Monday, we agree that the benefits
:04:52. > :04:58.issue has been devolved and therefore the Vow has been
:04:59. > :05:03.delivered. At the back row an amendment to give the Scottish
:05:04. > :05:10.Government future powers to hold a referendum was defeated. They agreed
:05:11. > :05:16.to give powers to Scotland to handle abortion. He's giving different
:05:17. > :05:21.powers to Scotland and England and we know that in other parts of the
:05:22. > :05:26.world that this has led to people having to travel at a vulnerable
:05:27. > :05:34.time. In all, the Scotland Bill will give Holyrood a series of new tax
:05:35. > :05:38.and welfare powers which, Minister said, will transform it into the
:05:39. > :05:40.world's most powerful devolved parliament. But the SNP say does not
:05:41. > :05:52.go far enough. They are winding up in the Chamber,
:05:53. > :06:00.what is the latest? I believe it has been given its third reading on the
:06:01. > :06:03.nod. No vote needed. I think Ian Murray, the shadow Scottish
:06:04. > :06:07.secretary has been quoting Donald Dewar saying that there shall be a
:06:08. > :06:11.powerful Scottish Parliament. Remember Donald Dewar's original
:06:12. > :06:16.introduction of the Scottish Parliament said there shall be a
:06:17. > :06:20.Scottish Parliament. It has gone to its report stage and is third
:06:21. > :06:25.reading despite your position on some issues, Labour on the
:06:26. > :06:29.devolution of abortion, we have not heard the last of that and clearly
:06:30. > :06:36.it goes to the House of Lords and there may be more said about that.
:06:37. > :06:40.The biggest you for the SNP dashed the big issue for the SNP into
:06:41. > :06:45.nice's debate was that the Commons rejected their proposal to be given
:06:46. > :06:51.the power to hold another referendum. That would be at the
:06:52. > :06:56.forefront of SNP minds. This bill will require assent from Holyrood,
:06:57. > :07:02.as well. Is it conceivable that the SNP could vote against this? I think
:07:03. > :07:07.a number of things have to happen before that process. We had tonight
:07:08. > :07:13.about the fiscal framework which David Mundell and John Swinney are
:07:14. > :07:16.working on at the moment. That is needed for these powers, these
:07:17. > :07:22.financial powers and the others that are being devolved, to come into
:07:23. > :07:27.force. They have to agree a financial framework. It is said that
:07:28. > :07:32.the Scottish Parliament may not allow this bill to go through if it
:07:33. > :07:39.is detrimental to the finances of the Scottish Parliament itself. So
:07:40. > :07:42.that has to be agreed and there will be a long, drawn-out passage through
:07:43. > :07:51.the House of Lords before acceptance.
:07:52. > :07:56.We are joined by the deputy SNP leader. Thanks for coming in, fresh
:07:57. > :08:03.from the vote. You wanted more powers, is that it settled now? The
:08:04. > :08:08.House of Commons has decided, it is progress of sorts. It is a modest
:08:09. > :08:13.bill, not a powerful Scottish Parliament which it was suggested it
:08:14. > :08:17.might be. We did not get tax credits devolved today and even the stuff
:08:18. > :08:24.that was reasonably uncontentious in the bill, we don't even have all
:08:25. > :08:31.income tax powers, corporation tax. It is good as far as it goes, but
:08:32. > :08:35.very modest. David Mundell says it is time for the political parties to
:08:36. > :08:42.work together to make these powers a success for everybody in Scotland.
:08:43. > :08:46.Were you and the SNP do that now? The Scottish National Party is in
:08:47. > :08:51.government in Holyrood, the Tories have never been in power there. The
:08:52. > :08:56.team there have always worked to make a Scottish Parliament a success
:08:57. > :09:04.with whatever powers -- whatever parties. You want to use the powers
:09:05. > :09:10.to work for Scotland. But you will not be happy with anything short of
:09:11. > :09:14.independence? The aim of the SNP is to see an independent Scotland but
:09:15. > :09:18.in the meanwhile, let's have the most powerful Scottish Parliament we
:09:19. > :09:22.have to improve the lives of Scottish people and grow the
:09:23. > :09:26.economy. Their opportunities in this bill to give a small business
:09:27. > :09:31.powers, that was rejected, to deliver tax credits to the Scottish
:09:32. > :09:36.Parliament, to deliver fairness, that was also rejected. We have to
:09:37. > :09:42.use the powers that are coming, remember we are not there yet, and
:09:43. > :09:47.try to make a success of them. As I believe the SNP government has with
:09:48. > :09:51.the powers it already has. Political opponents say that this is what the
:09:52. > :09:55.Scottish people voted for. You lost a referendum so it is time to stop
:09:56. > :10:01.provoking political grievances. The powers are what was promised.
:10:02. > :10:09.Politicians say silly things but that is the most stupid. This is the
:10:10. > :10:14.outcome of this -- the Smith Commission which was not even
:10:15. > :10:18.started after the referendum. So it is impossible for the referendum to
:10:19. > :10:24.have decided that this is what they wanted. So if there has been a
:10:25. > :10:31.clever side, it was the referendum in May and the SNP won 56 out of 59
:10:32. > :10:36.feet, and we say we should have maximum powers. This is modest
:10:37. > :10:41.progress today but it is not Devo Max or the closest thing to
:10:42. > :10:46.federalism. Is there any possibility that your colleagues in Holyrood
:10:47. > :10:50.will vote against this? John Swinney was absolutely clear, the fiscal
:10:51. > :10:55.agreement which governs how the whole thing works has to be in
:10:56. > :11:01.place, has to be right and has to be right and have to it does not cause
:11:02. > :11:05.Scotland any detriment, any loss simply because powers have been
:11:06. > :11:09.devolved. But you could not really be in a position ever to vote
:11:10. > :11:15.against more powers for Scotland, could you? Know, we did not oppose
:11:16. > :11:19.more powers today, but the Scottish Parliament do not have to give
:11:20. > :11:23.consent to this legislation. And I think John Swinney was right to say
:11:24. > :11:26.they will not consent to this legislation if the overarching
:11:27. > :11:33.financial framework leaves Scotland worse off. We are not going to buy a
:11:34. > :11:37.pig in a poke. We should have been told the detail of the financial
:11:38. > :11:43.agreements before we got to this stage of the legislation. It is now
:11:44. > :11:47.off to debate it and I'm sure they will deliver something positive for
:11:48. > :11:50.Scotland. I don't think the UK Government can take for granted that
:11:51. > :11:56.the Scottish Parliament will automatically support a deal if it
:11:57. > :11:59.was bad for the people of Scotland. Thank you for your time. We will be
:12:00. > :12:01.hoping to hear from the Conservatives.
:12:02. > :12:03.This is a key week for the Prime Minister in
:12:04. > :12:08.Tomorrow he'll set out his case for renegotiation in a letter to
:12:09. > :12:11.the other 27 member states and earlier he told the CBI, "The status
:12:12. > :12:23.In a way, you can't boil down all of my negotiation to one word,
:12:24. > :12:28.flexibility. Is this organisation flexible enough to make sure that
:12:29. > :12:32.countries inside the Eurozone can grow and succeed and countries
:12:33. > :12:37.outside the Eurozone, like Britain, can find what they need as well? If
:12:38. > :12:43.it is flexible enough, we will stay. If it is not, we will have to
:12:44. > :12:47.ask ourselves, a profound question, is this organisation for us. And
:12:48. > :12:48.people in Europe know I am deadly serious.
:12:49. > :12:51.Joining me now to discuss how other European countries will react to
:12:52. > :12:54.David Cameron's demands, from our London studio is Vincenzo Scarpetta.
:12:55. > :12:56.a policy analyst with Open Europe, which is a eurosceptic think tank
:12:57. > :13:10.Thanks for joining us. We don't know exactly what will be in the Prime
:13:11. > :13:17.Minister's letter, is he on emission impossible to win over the other 27
:13:18. > :13:23.member states? I think the bottom line of our exercise, of our
:13:24. > :13:28.European reform hits map -- heat map is that the negotiation will not be
:13:29. > :13:34.easy but all is still to play for. The vast majorities of countries are
:13:35. > :13:38.open-minded regarding David Cameron's reform plans that they
:13:39. > :13:45.remain to be convinced. The chances exceeded there. The really thorny
:13:46. > :13:50.issue is Cameron's demands for a four-year waiting period for migrant
:13:51. > :13:59.workers to claim benefits. How will that go down? I think the proposal
:14:00. > :14:03.to limit migrants' access to in work benefits is likely to be the single
:14:04. > :14:08.most difficult item on his agenda. The issue there is that a few
:14:09. > :14:14.European union member states think that the Prime Minister is trying to
:14:15. > :14:19.bury the fundamental principle of free movement which is not what the
:14:20. > :14:22.UK is trying to do. That is why there are strong reservations in a
:14:23. > :14:27.number of central and eastern European member states. As regards
:14:28. > :14:32.our map, we need to bear in mind that when we see red on our map it
:14:33. > :14:35.does not mean that certain countries such as Poland or the Czech Republic
:14:36. > :14:40.are impossible to convince, but it means that it will be hard work
:14:41. > :14:45.because they have strong reservations. But once it has been
:14:46. > :14:50.explained that what the UK is trying to do is to reform the rules on
:14:51. > :14:54.access to welfare, and it is not trying to undermine the fundamental
:14:55. > :14:59.principle of free movement, the chances of successful David Cameron
:15:00. > :15:06.will increase. -- of success for David Cameron will increase.
:15:07. > :15:12.The idea that has been put forward by David Cameron, it may be an
:15:13. > :15:16.opening gambit but we do not know, we do not know the details of the
:15:17. > :15:21.letter that will be sent tomorrow and we do not know what will come
:15:22. > :15:27.out of the negotiations, so I think it is too early to prejudge what the
:15:28. > :15:31.outcome could be. What about his desire for national governments to
:15:32. > :15:35.be given more power, who is likely to object to that in the other
:15:36. > :15:39.member states? This is another important item on the agenda and I
:15:40. > :15:43.think while at pretty much all EU member states are talking a good
:15:44. > :15:49.game about the need for national parliaments to be more involved, on
:15:50. > :15:54.the very specific proposal of a red card, giving groups the power to
:15:55. > :16:00.block European Union legislative proposals, I think some countries,
:16:01. > :16:08.like Spain or Belgium may have reservations because these countries
:16:09. > :16:12.have very strong emotional attachment to European integration
:16:13. > :16:16.and they may think that given national parliaments the power to
:16:17. > :16:25.veto legislation may hamper future integration. I think again these
:16:26. > :16:29.countries can be convinced and it will not be easy, but it is not
:16:30. > :16:34.going to be impossible, if David Cameron can do a good job of
:16:35. > :16:38.explaining exactly what the UK is trying to achieve. It sounds like it
:16:39. > :16:43.it is still all to play for. Absolutely. I would say that is the
:16:44. > :16:48.bottom line of our exercise, all is still to play for, the letter David
:16:49. > :16:51.bottom line of our exercise, all is impetus to a situation which has
:16:52. > :17:44.been going on at a technical level and we
:17:45. > :19:10.been going on at a technical level court of law. It started
:19:11. > :19:13.candidate for next year's Scottish elections, and Andy Maciver, former
:19:14. > :19:14.director of communications for the Scottish Conservatives
:19:15. > :19:23.and PR executive with the firm Message Matters.
:19:24. > :19:29.Welcome to you both this evening. Let us kick off with that Alistair
:19:30. > :19:34.Carmichael story. We heard from him today that he thought it was
:19:35. > :19:39.politically beneficial to leak about a memo about Nicola Sturgeon but it
:19:40. > :19:44.might not be particularly noble. That is politics. It is not the Lee
:19:45. > :19:48.Spick noble. I genuinely was a bit surprised at some of the things he
:19:49. > :19:53.said. I do not think he helped himself and win or lose, in terms of
:19:54. > :19:59.this particular trial, to talk about, to say that because my
:20:00. > :20:03.advisor leaked something with my authorisation, because he leaked
:20:04. > :20:08.it, I thought it was truthful for me to say I knew nothing about it. The
:20:09. > :20:14.Scottish electorate are not daft, lies are lies and he told a cracking
:20:15. > :20:19.one. He told it for political advantage. Whether or not in terms
:20:20. > :20:24.of the letter of the law, that actually leads him to being found
:20:25. > :20:30.guilty in legal terms, is one thing, but I think in the general
:20:31. > :20:34.obligation mind, that is behaviour that is not acceptable for any
:20:35. > :20:38.politician. He himself said that he is not disputing the fact that he
:20:39. > :20:43.was south of the standard expected of the ministerial code, I do not
:20:44. > :20:48.know if you dispute that? I do not think so. I think you are right,
:20:49. > :20:52.when you said this is politics, it is politics, that memo and the
:20:53. > :20:55.exclusive nature of that and the relevance to the election campaign
:20:56. > :21:08.made it very late Kabul from a political point of view, it does not
:21:09. > :21:10.matter which party you are from, I think any minister would have been
:21:11. > :21:13.quite happy for that memo to be leaked. He is serving the first
:21:14. > :21:16.order last politician to do something that. He is certainly not
:21:17. > :21:19.the first. I do not accept that this is politics, that is what politics
:21:20. > :21:23.is like, it may be what it has been like, it is not what it should be
:21:24. > :21:27.like. Politicians need to come forward and say this is not
:21:28. > :21:31.acceptable. People who do that in the future, we should not have to
:21:32. > :21:37.wait for constituents to take them to court, they party and colleague
:21:38. > :21:40.should say should not have done that and you need to stand down and we
:21:41. > :21:44.will take the by-election and see what we do with that. I agree
:21:45. > :21:48.completely and I wish politics was not like that but I think nobody
:21:49. > :21:52.should have any moral superiority because this could have and would
:21:53. > :21:56.have been done by ministers from all different parties. It is a political
:21:57. > :22:01.issue and a political trial, there is no question about that, the SNP
:22:02. > :22:17.see an opportunity for a by-election which could impact on the seats in
:22:18. > :22:21.Shetland next year but I do not blame the SNP, that is a political
:22:22. > :22:23.opportunity in the same way that the Liberal Democrats saw an opportunity
:22:24. > :22:25.with Michelle Thompson in Ember West. Could say it was fair enough
:22:26. > :22:28.to leak if you thought was politically advantageous but what
:22:29. > :22:31.about the fact he did not tell the official enquiry the truth about his
:22:32. > :22:35.role in the leak until five days after he was re-elected? Precisely.
:22:36. > :22:42.That is the thing that is motivating those constituents and they are not
:22:43. > :22:47.all SNP members or even SNP supporters. That is what is
:22:48. > :22:51.motivating them to do what they are doing, at enormous cost and with
:22:52. > :22:55.great difficulty and is motivating others, again not in any political
:22:56. > :23:00.party and some who are to support them in doing that, it is about
:23:01. > :23:07.lying. As you say, if you set aside the leak, to actually lie initially
:23:08. > :23:12.and then come clean later, to come clean later, because you know you're
:23:13. > :23:17.going to get found out, I think he said today, no leak enquiry ever
:23:18. > :23:20.finds a source and then he quickly realised after he was elected how
:23:21. > :23:26.convenient that the source was probably going to be found. Then he
:23:27. > :23:30.came clean. He did not even tell the truth for telling the truth's say,
:23:31. > :23:34.he told the truth because he knew he would be found out. He will be given
:23:35. > :23:38.more evidence tomorrow, but moving on to another story, the Chancellor
:23:39. > :23:45.announced 30% cuts or four government departments stop Paul
:23:46. > :23:51.Johnson from the Institute for Fiscal Studies says that is just a
:23:52. > :23:55.taste of bigger cuts to come. These are big cuts, 30% is a big cut to
:23:56. > :23:58.day-to-day spending but it is important to be clear this was not
:23:59. > :24:02.most of the transport budget, most of that budget is capital spending,
:24:03. > :24:06.that is not what the Chancellor is talking about. That is not most of
:24:07. > :24:10.the local government spending which is funded through council tax and so
:24:11. > :24:13.on. These are small amounts of money but an indication of the scale of
:24:14. > :24:20.cuts across the bigger amounts of money that we will hear about later.
:24:21. > :24:23.We have not seen anything yet. It is a continuation of what has been
:24:24. > :24:27.happening over the last four or five years with the heat turned up. It is
:24:28. > :24:31.interesting when it translates to Scotland, will have Barnett
:24:32. > :24:34.consequential is but if you look at transport, which is one of the
:24:35. > :24:39.departments concerned is, the Scottish Government has a good
:24:40. > :24:42.record, over the last four or five years despite the cuts which shows
:24:43. > :24:46.that the government in Scotland has been able to find a very good
:24:47. > :24:50.efficiencies despite budget cuts and shows it is possible to do that. I
:24:51. > :24:54.think one of the interesting things about the cuts in the departments
:24:55. > :24:58.recently is that they have not impacted on service provision
:24:59. > :25:02.because the government has managed to squeeze efficiencies out and that
:25:03. > :25:05.is an interesting point in these particular department and that will
:25:06. > :25:08.continue. It seems that the Chancellor is determined to push on
:25:09. > :25:14.regardless of any other criticism with his plan to run a budget
:25:15. > :25:18.surplus. Yes he is, yes he is. He is determined to do that regardless of
:25:19. > :25:24.the pain it will cause and whilst I do not disagree with Andy that there
:25:25. > :25:28.has been room to make efficiencies and use our resources better, I
:25:29. > :25:34.think two things, one, there comes a point when that becomes no longer
:25:35. > :25:37.doable without directly reducing the level of service that is available
:25:38. > :25:42.to people and secondly, his big push is really going to come on welfare
:25:43. > :25:47.because despite what the Lords have done on tax credits, they have
:25:48. > :25:51.simply given him a challenge to find more welfare cuts from elsewhere and
:25:52. > :25:55.I think that means that the poorest and most vulnerable and those least
:25:56. > :26:00.able will be the ones who will pay the price for a budget surplus that
:26:01. > :26:06.he has produced out of a clear blue sky and is actually greater than the
:26:07. > :26:11.current Scottish budget. So he wants to save all of that. Well, let us
:26:12. > :26:14.move on before we run out of time to that other story we were discussing
:26:15. > :26:21.tonight about Cameron's letter to the European Council leader setting
:26:22. > :26:25.up the reforms he wants to see. I do not know quite what is in the letter
:26:26. > :26:32.but McDonnell says it is all bluff and bluster. I think he is right. It
:26:33. > :26:36.is difficult to envisage him arguing for anything other than remain vote.
:26:37. > :26:40.It is a difficult position for him to be in specifically because he
:26:41. > :26:44.cannot be seen to say I will campaign to stay at all costs
:26:45. > :26:46.because that undermines the renegotiation with his European
:26:47. > :26:49.partners. The other European countries need to see two things,
:26:50. > :26:55.they need to see the polls are closed and there is a risk Britain
:26:56. > :26:58.will lead and see that Cameron is prepared to come out of he does not
:26:59. > :27:01.get what he wants. I'm not convinced he will. It is difficult to see
:27:02. > :27:05.Cameron campaigning for anything else other than remain vote but it
:27:06. > :27:09.might be a useful tool for him to persuade his partners in Europe that
:27:10. > :27:14.they are going to need to give him something if they want him to stay
:27:15. > :27:20.in. I would agree. He is trying to ride two horses and it is a tactic.
:27:21. > :27:24.I am not sure how well it will work because those that he is going to
:27:25. > :27:28.negotiate with are pretty politically astute and they might
:27:29. > :27:34.spot it for what it is. It is still not clear to me, not clear to many
:27:35. > :27:38.of us exactly what other changes he wants to have and where are his
:27:39. > :27:45.bottom line and do we agree with those anyway? These are his
:27:46. > :27:48.negotiation tactics and I am not sure that he has got a mandate to
:27:49. > :27:49.new -- to do that but he is doing that all the less.
:27:50. > :27:53.Unfortunately we didn't manage to a Conservative MP to discuss
:27:54. > :27:57.the Scotland Bill as we had hoped, nevertheless I'll be back