:00:00. > :00:09.The NHS 24 IT fiasco that's swallowed all the savings
:00:10. > :00:39.NHS 24 apologises for systemic failure which caused huge budget
:00:40. > :00:43.overspends and repeated delays in its new IT system.
:00:44. > :00:46.We examine how opinion pollsters called the general election result
:00:47. > :00:59.And where did it all go wrong for Labour in Scotland? The party offers
:01:00. > :01:03.up some home truths. It was supposed to be up and running
:01:04. > :01:06.more than two years ago Now we're told it won't just be late
:01:07. > :01:11.but it will cost more too. The bill for NHS 24's
:01:12. > :01:16.new computerised call-handling service is set to come
:01:17. > :01:18.in at ?50 million more Its former and current heads are due
:01:19. > :01:24.to explain themselves before But how did it get in such a mess
:01:25. > :01:43.in the first place? The health service telephone advice
:01:44. > :01:48.line NHS 24 tried to launch a new computer system in November but it
:01:49. > :01:52.had to be abandoned after only one hour because of concerns over
:01:53. > :01:57.patient safety. The organisation said that failure caused the already
:01:58. > :02:04.delayed project to run further overbudget. In a submission to the
:02:05. > :02:07.Holyrood public or that committee NHS 24 chiefs apologised
:02:08. > :02:12.unreservedly for the overspend and underlined the reasons they said if
:02:13. > :02:18.that happened. They said there had been an overall systemic failure.
:02:19. > :02:23.They said none of the measures put in place by NHS 24 or the Scottish
:02:24. > :02:28.Government reduced the substantial risks of the project. They say the
:02:29. > :02:32.overspend means that the cost and savings benefits used to justify the
:02:33. > :02:38.upgrade in the first place would not be realised. The former and current
:02:39. > :02:42.head will give evidence to that same committee tomorrow and can expect
:02:43. > :02:48.tough questioning. What I want to hear tomorrow is when will it be put
:02:49. > :02:51.right, when will we have a system fit for purpose, and when will the
:02:52. > :02:56.Scottish Government address all the IT problems that were pointed out
:02:57. > :03:03.five years ago by the previous auditor general? They have failed to
:03:04. > :03:08.do so so far. In a statement NHS 24 said it was now clear that the
:03:09. > :03:12.service does not have the required expertise to deliver such a large
:03:13. > :03:17.scale project and that it was committed to resolving the
:03:18. > :03:19.outstanding issues. With the overspend now outstripping planned
:03:20. > :03:30.savings we will find out tomorrow if that washes with Holyrood and the
:03:31. > :03:33.public. We did ask the Health Secretary
:03:34. > :03:35.Shona Robison to come on tonight's Joining me now are two MSPs,
:03:36. > :04:03.James Kelly for Scottish Labour and in Edinburgh is Jim Eadie
:04:04. > :04:06.for the SNP, who is also the Convenor of the Infrastructure
:04:07. > :04:22.and Capital Investment Committee. This project has been a complete
:04:23. > :04:27.waste of taxpayer's Manny has not? Clearly this is not a situation that
:04:28. > :04:31.anyone would want to have seen happen and there are serious issues
:04:32. > :04:38.that must be addressed. Whether it will be a waste of taxpayer money
:04:39. > :04:43.remains to be seen. We will wait for and scrutinise carefully the outcome
:04:44. > :04:48.of the review that is underway and has been taken forward by the chief
:04:49. > :04:53.nursing officer. It has already swallowed the savings it was
:04:54. > :04:56.supposed to generate. Clearly the situation is not one that anyone
:04:57. > :05:00.would have wanted to say. That is why we have to wait for and
:05:01. > :05:06.scrutinise the report that will be published later this month. But the
:05:07. > :05:10.public are absolutely right to expect answers. The MSPs who will
:05:11. > :05:14.cross examined both the former chief executive of NHS 24 and the current
:05:15. > :05:22.interim chief executive of NHS 24 will ask serious questions as well.
:05:23. > :05:30.I am very act as a MSP presenting my constituents that following the
:05:31. > :05:35.additional support that was put in place NHS 24 continued to assert
:05:36. > :05:40.that this new IT system was on track for delivery and successful
:05:41. > :05:44.politician by autumn 2015 when claiming that was not the case. I
:05:45. > :05:48.want answers and we all want answers to what has gone wrong, to
:05:49. > :05:52.understand that, to learn the lessons for the future, and to get
:05:53. > :05:56.this new IT system reintroduced as quickly as possible in order to
:05:57. > :06:02.deliver better patient care and deliver value for money for the
:06:03. > :06:05.taxpayer in Scotland. If the Health Secretary was continually given
:06:06. > :06:12.assurances that everything was fine and you cannot blame her can you? It
:06:13. > :06:17.is a shocking waste of public money. Not only is the system two years
:06:18. > :06:26.overdue but ?50 million overspend on this. They were asking people to use
:06:27. > :06:29.a pen and paper instead of the actual computer system. It is
:06:30. > :06:33.unacceptable. The Scottish Government have a track record of
:06:34. > :06:42.the field IT projects. They need to get a grip and so does NHS 24.
:06:43. > :06:45.The Scottish Government to take some responsibility for this. In the
:06:46. > :06:49.report points out that there was governance by the Scottish
:06:50. > :06:53.Government as well as a NHS 24. The Government brought in its own
:06:54. > :06:59.auditors to use ago and still costs continued to spiral. Clearly there
:07:00. > :07:03.has to be oversight by the Scottish Government of all of the health
:07:04. > :07:07.boards, both territorial and the special health boards of which NHS
:07:08. > :07:10.24 is one but we should be clear that Jude Law since in terms of
:07:11. > :07:25.procurement contracts is an operational matter for NHS 24.
:07:26. > :07:32.-- due diligemnce. But we need to understand what has happened and
:07:33. > :07:36.learn the lessons for the future. But picking up on the point about
:07:37. > :07:42.failed IT systems it was the Labour Government side of the border that
:07:43. > :07:45.had to abandon an IT system for the entire NHS in England which cost
:07:46. > :07:51.tens of billions of pounds. Let us stick to this IT failure. If there
:07:52. > :08:01.work clear concerns as there were two years ago how can this has
:08:02. > :08:04.continued for another two years and millions more of taxpayer money has
:08:05. > :08:12.been squandered. # What happens was that Ernst and
:08:13. > :08:16.Young undertook that piece of work. As a result of that the National
:08:17. > :08:21.services division of NHS Scotland put in additional operational
:08:22. > :08:24.support to that organisation and we were assured that the issues were
:08:25. > :08:28.being addressed and resolved. Clearly that was not the case. We
:08:29. > :08:32.need to understand why that has happened and we do need to learn the
:08:33. > :08:37.lessons for the future. Jury introduced this new IT system as
:08:38. > :08:42.quickly as possible for the benefit of patients. I am not in anyway
:08:43. > :08:46.downplaying the seriousness or significance of this that NHS as it
:08:47. > :08:51.is currently constituted as a successful system. It is treated
:08:52. > :08:54.75,000 people over the eight-day festive period. It dealt with 1.5
:08:55. > :09:01.million calls annually. Most calls are dealt with in an average time of
:09:02. > :09:07.nine seconds. That is a good record. What needs to be done now? This will
:09:08. > :09:12.not wash. I have a situation in my constituency where people are coming
:09:13. > :09:16.to meet with cancelled operations, cancelled cancer treatments, yet we
:09:17. > :09:21.have a ?50 million overspend here. What the Government need to do is
:09:22. > :09:25.not just put this right but they need to answer serious questions
:09:26. > :09:30.about the contract. Why is it we are stuffing millions of pounds into the
:09:31. > :09:35.pockets of IT consultants who are simply failing to do the job and we
:09:36. > :09:40.are not supporting patients. We need systems to support patients. We need
:09:41. > :09:47.money invested in nurses and doctors. We do not need angling IT
:09:48. > :09:49.consultants wasting public money. We have to leave it there for this
:09:50. > :09:51.evening. Now, who can forget Paddy Ashdown
:09:52. > :09:54.threatening to eat his hat on election night as the BBC exit
:09:55. > :09:57.poll suggested a Lib Dem wipeout and an overall majority for
:09:58. > :10:05.the Conservatives at Westminster. The opinion pollsters have shown
:10:06. > :10:08.a little more humility in trying to work out how they got it
:10:09. > :10:11.so badly wrong in the run up A report out today says the failure
:10:12. > :10:16.to forecast the outcome was largely due to unrepresentative
:10:17. > :10:26.poll samples. Ten o'clock and we are seeing the
:10:27. > :10:32.Conservatives are the largest party. It was not supposed to be like this.
:10:33. > :10:37.Polls throughout the campaign suggested we were heading for a hung
:10:38. > :10:43.parliament. The permutations are enormous. We have never been in this
:10:44. > :10:49.situation before. The potential for uncertainty is immense. There was
:10:50. > :10:57.incredulity in the studios. At this is correct I will publicly eat my
:10:58. > :11:04.hat. But the only opinion poll that counts is how we bought it and the
:11:05. > :11:07.results were clear. I will now form a majority Conservative Government.
:11:08. > :11:16.How did the pollsters get it so wrong? The polls was accurate. We
:11:17. > :11:21.spotted the surge in independence and this was consistent and reported
:11:22. > :11:31.in the polls throughout. But the UK wide polls which made up the general
:11:32. > :11:35.election, they did get it wrong. Pollsters have been listening to
:11:36. > :11:40.much to some people, not enough to others. Labour voters were
:11:41. > :11:43.overrepresented in the sample and conservative voters were under
:11:44. > :11:47.represented in the sample. That happens because conservative photos
:11:48. > :11:53.are a little more difficult to get into a survey that has nothing to do
:11:54. > :11:56.with them not wanting to reveal that they are Tory voters but that simply
:11:57. > :12:02.means that they take longer to get to. The pollsters will face another
:12:03. > :12:09.huge test in me looking ahead to the Holyrood elections. They have to get
:12:10. > :12:14.constituency votes right. They also have to get the list voting
:12:15. > :12:17.intention right as well. The proportion makes such an impact on
:12:18. > :12:24.the overall outcome. The challengers have always been fairly severe in
:12:25. > :12:31.the Scottish Bowling appeared with Westminster and we know from the
:12:32. > :12:37.referendum survey on independence that in the end pollsters were right
:12:38. > :12:43.in terms of people voting to remain, nevertheless they did not come near
:12:44. > :12:46.the 11 point lead that was the final outcome. Might we have voted
:12:47. > :12:52.differently if there had not been such speculation about a hung
:12:53. > :12:59.parliament? Do polls alter outcomes? It matters to get the quality rate.
:13:00. > :13:04.It also shows us that polls can help us get a snapshot picture about this
:13:05. > :13:08.Apple is not right that picture makes me slightly misleading which
:13:09. > :13:13.is why we also need long-term survey evidence. But should there be more
:13:14. > :13:18.regulation on polling and the waiters reported? There are calls
:13:19. > :13:22.from time to time to either regulate the industry more or indeed ban
:13:23. > :13:26.polls during election campaigns. There are strong arguments against
:13:27. > :13:29.that happening as well. But let us listen to what people have to say
:13:30. > :13:37.and make some judgments at that stage. The colours on this map will
:13:38. > :13:45.shift next week. The question is whether the opinion polls are
:13:46. > :13:46.telling as. We love the drama of an opinion poll even if the story it
:13:47. > :13:50.tells us cannot be the entire truth. Joining me now from our Edinburgh
:13:51. > :13:54.studio is Ailsa Henderson, Professor of Political Science
:13:55. > :14:08.at the University of Edinburgh. Did you think today's report has
:14:09. > :14:30.nailed the problem? In some we know that in some respects, this is it
:14:31. > :14:36.with the polls there, the is the extent to for some of the answer
:14:37. > :14:40.that people are providing. We often included in these panels, they are
:14:41. > :14:49.pulled over and over and over again. With each poll, new pieces of
:14:50. > :14:55.information. Just be asking. With each ball, we a group of people that
:14:56. > :14:58.are less likely population they are supposed to represent. In some
:14:59. > :15:09.respects, yes. They are absolutely right that something is part of it
:15:10. > :15:15.but the that polling companies transporting the sample into
:15:16. > :15:19.something that is unlike the rest is something how was it that the very
:15:20. > :15:28.same polls that got it wrong in the UK got it yes, there is a couple of
:15:29. > :15:34.things going on there. There ordinary voters and that meant
:15:35. > :15:38.underestimation of Conservative voters. If you have an electorate of
:15:39. > :15:42.the UK were conservatives are the most popular second post-bubble
:15:43. > :15:57.party, underestimating that vote make a difference in terms of what
:15:58. > :16:00.you think is -- second with the Lib. To some extent, every get it wrong
:16:01. > :16:09.consistently with one party and that one party is not one of the two, in
:16:10. > :16:15.less. That is part of the answer. The other part of the answer is that
:16:16. > :16:20.we know that even lowly polls were they were out on Labour. They were
:16:21. > :16:23.overestimated Labour support almost to the same extent in Scotland as
:16:24. > :16:34.they were in England. The reason that is not a problem in Scotland
:16:35. > :16:47.but it was in between the two the gap -34% in England. If you look in
:16:48. > :16:59.could the predictions of a hung Parliament actually beyond 50%, I
:17:00. > :17:05.think that they... Well, the flip side said there was going vote,
:17:06. > :17:17.would it push more people back to Labour? It might have done. We do
:17:18. > :17:28.not know, one thing we do know is we seem to think of Scottish elections
:17:29. > :17:33.there was an Westminster election where people work and this was
:17:34. > :17:45.almost a rerun of the referendum. We know that the referendum mattered
:17:46. > :17:52.in. The had changed an issue of the electorate who felt different about
:17:53. > :17:56.labour, mainly because it was making sorry, I was just going to say, very
:17:57. > :18:00.briefly before we come to an end, we have a couple of elections coming
:18:01. > :18:01.up. Holyrood and then EU election, are you confident that
:18:02. > :18:03.up. Holyrood and then EU election, addressed the problem and will
:18:04. > :18:44.up. Holyrood and then EU election, it I don't think
:18:45. > :18:48.And joining me now to discuss that and some of the day's other news
:18:49. > :20:11.from Westminster is our Correspondent Nick Eardley.
:20:12. > :20:23.from Westminster is our to similar sorts of it needs a
:20:24. > :20:27.massive swing from the Tories in Tony Blair, when he won the massive
:20:28. > :20:33.landslide of 1997 did not even manage to sort of numbers. In the
:20:34. > :20:39.Lords today, they have the details of the Scotland Bill. What have been
:20:40. > :20:51.highlights? That's right, act bill and that the moment, it is that is a
:20:52. > :20:58.the eyes and cross line by line and suggest improvements. A couple
:20:59. > :21:03.issues came up today, when the British once power over the British
:21:04. > :21:06.Transport Police in to Edinburgh? Likewise, with the Crown estate,
:21:07. > :21:11.questions were raised over who would have the responsibility for the
:21:12. > :21:15.Crown estate in Scotland once these powers the Smith commission said
:21:16. > :21:20.that the Scottish culture be taking that responsibility but peers have
:21:21. > :21:22.pointed out that it executive responsibility. It should be the
:21:23. > :21:27.Scottish Government if anybody that looks after that part of things. Why
:21:28. > :21:40.does that matter? Again, the question that is is, when it were
:21:41. > :21:45.parts of it were the practicalities of all the? Finally, briefly, we
:21:46. > :21:50.hint today that there could be an EU referendum hot on the heels of the
:21:51. > :21:53.Holyrood election in May, what has that's right. One of the few things
:21:54. > :21:56.we don't know about the referendum is then it'll be. Lastly, Alec
:21:57. > :22:04.Salmond said it would be different spectral for Scotland after the
:22:05. > :22:07.Holyrood election on the Scottish Secretary also spoke about ageing
:22:08. > :22:13.referendum today saying he is happy to have it the key question is, when
:22:14. > :22:18.in June with the hole that? If they do opt for a summer referendum. If
:22:19. > :22:20.it is a religion, I extent to be Scotland and London. If it is
:22:21. > :22:32.afterwards, there Here now to discuss
:22:33. > :22:40.some of the day's news Kevin Hague, who's also
:22:41. > :23:06.a businessman, and Andrew Tickell, do you think timing matters? Between
:23:07. > :23:15.Scotland and Westminster whenever. In terms of the EU referendum, with
:23:16. > :23:18.all respect, I do not think interesting June or July the
:23:19. > :23:22.referendum will take place, I cannot get too wound up about that. Nicola
:23:23. > :23:25.Sturgeon was saying ageing referendum would be too little time
:23:26. > :23:31.to convince voters in the rest of Britain that EU membership is the
:23:32. > :23:34.way to go. Do you think she has I think the important question is
:23:35. > :23:38.this. Does it covers of enough time to actually learn a lot about the EU
:23:39. > :23:42.to make the level of public knowledge about these things is
:23:43. > :23:48.pretty low. I think that is the more important question. Interested in
:23:49. > :23:53.the outrage. There has been too much of that in recent times. Are you
:23:54. > :23:58.more concerned about voter fatigue? To elections in two months? Again,
:23:59. > :24:02.I'm afraid I am not. Anyone who does not take the EU referendum
:24:03. > :24:08.seriously, anyone that they were out for weeks ago casting a vote and are
:24:09. > :24:13.not that all about the to imagine that that sort of behaviour will be
:24:14. > :24:16.created by the timing of the vote. Also, the campaign for the EU
:24:17. > :24:24.referendum is easily on a national scale. You are not that because of
:24:25. > :24:28.the I think it is a bit of a fault the let's see if we can get you a
:24:29. > :24:39.little bit more interested in Labour's
:24:40. > :24:50.introspection the against Westminster using a vote against
:24:51. > :24:55.Labour. Is it is a convinces me otherwise. I think it is a very thin
:24:56. > :24:58.report which does not reflect on the disaffection with the Labour Party
:24:59. > :25:06.in the country. If you talk to people that have left the Labour
:25:07. > :25:10.Party, but I am always struck by what a to Kinnock. I think those
:25:11. > :25:28.historical roots, the erosion of the base of the Labour Party in terms of
:25:29. > :25:32.organised labour, I votes of the do you think there is a deep
:25:33. > :25:37.understanding about what I think it is there any report. I don't think
:25:38. > :25:43.it has been picked up very widely. There are the way the media reported
:25:44. > :25:50.and the media has not got across Labour on the other hand, the an
:25:51. > :25:58.overarching political narrative, a clear message. That they failed to
:25:59. > :26:01.be persistent and consistent in that is politics 101. I am not a
:26:02. > :26:05.politician but if you can write in your report that you did not have a
:26:06. > :26:08.clear message and it didn't get across, and your representatives
:26:09. > :26:12.were not pushing that message, that is the problem. All of the rest, all
:26:13. > :26:28.of the technical staff is just noise. They did
:26:29. > :26:41.they were talking the talk without walking the walk. They were trying
:26:42. > :26:44.to win over Conservative voters without trying to win over the rest
:26:45. > :26:49.of the United Kingdom. That did create tension and that is part of
:26:50. > :26:52.the reason why they did not to some extent, they failed to decide which
:26:53. > :27:03.horse they were backing and therefore ended up there is a bit of
:27:04. > :27:06.the SNP taking their policies. Do you think they have taken an
:27:07. > :27:13.responsibility for what they have done wrong? I don't say this with
:27:14. > :27:18.any animosity, I psychology of the Scottish Labour Party is a sense it
:27:19. > :27:21.has a sense of feeling victimised by the Scottish people and feeling
:27:22. > :27:35.misunderstood. Desperately longing that we should just all listened, "I
:27:36. > :27:42.want to listen I remember the Labour faces collapsing on TV. That is a
:27:43. > :27:45.striking illustration has not been it is to see what kind of
:27:46. > :27:53.catastrophe Scottish Labour would have to go I was just on to say
:27:54. > :27:58.exactly that. It is an interesting analysis. I hope it is an updated
:27:59. > :28:03.analysis. I think. How catastrophically wanted to be? We
:28:04. > :28:06.are now seeing that it is now another generation of politicians
:28:07. > :28:11.coming through. If you are standing for election for Scottish Labour, it
:28:12. > :28:14.is I think what you'll see now is a wave of Scottish politicians are
:28:15. > :28:18.therefore the right reasons and will not dare for the easy feat. In
:28:19. > :28:22.contrast, among the SNP, you have people who are getting easy feat
:28:23. > :28:26.because it is the SNP. The SNP run the risk now of suffering what will
:28:27. > :28:44.happen to complacent any consequence in I
:28:45. > :28:47.think it is impossible that we'll still stuck in a speech this
:28:48. > :29:09.situation. I think we have been in that sense of it is in Nicola
:29:10. > :29:11.Sturgeon's I think hopefully the polls are not too accurate and
:29:12. > :29:13.hopefully there is room for some light on some sensible opposition in
:29:14. > :29:18.Scotland. I think that Andrew will be here,
:29:19. > :29:23.same time tomorrow night. A private company runs
:29:24. > :29:33.this youth prison. Following an investigation
:29:34. > :29:36.using undercover filming, of violence and bullying
:29:37. > :29:41.against children as young as 14 that has prompted the suspension
:29:42. > :30:11.of seven staff members. How to tell what's going wrong in
:30:12. > :30:17.the world economy right now.