:00:00. > :00:00.More families try to bring a private prosecution
:00:07. > :00:29.The families of two women killed by a driver with a history
:00:30. > :00:33.of blackouts try to bring a private prosecution.
:00:34. > :00:40.And a "deferential culture" at the BBC with "untouchable" stars
:00:41. > :00:43.allowed Jimmy Savile to abuse for decades.
:00:44. > :00:57.Mairi Convoy and Laura Stewart died after William Payne fell unconscious
:00:58. > :01:02.at the wheel of his Land Rover in December 2010.
:01:03. > :01:05.Today we learned their families will now pursue a private
:01:06. > :01:09.prosecution against him for their deaths.
:01:10. > :01:12.It comes after relatives of three of the victims of the Glasgow bin
:01:13. > :01:15.lorry crash launch their own bid at a private prosecution of driver,
:01:16. > :01:24.Here's our Home Affairs Correspondent, Reevel Alderson.
:01:25. > :01:32.Two tragic Rd accidents in Glasgow city centre separated by four years
:01:33. > :01:35.and are just a quarter of a mile. In December 2010, this range Rover
:01:36. > :01:39.mounted the curb and killing two young women on a Christmas shopping
:01:40. > :01:46.trip. The driver, William Payne had collapsed at the wheel. The two
:01:47. > :01:51.women were killed. Prosecutors decided not to bring charges against
:01:52. > :01:55.the driver. Four years later, six other Christmas shoppers died when a
:01:56. > :01:59.Glasgow council bin lorry ran out of control in Queen Street, finally
:02:00. > :02:04.crashing into a hotel in George Square. Its driver had also
:02:05. > :02:08.collapsed at the wheel. In the other tragedy, Harry Clarke faced no
:02:09. > :02:14.charges. Now he and William Payne could be the subject of private
:02:15. > :02:24.prosecutions. We hope that our girls to lives can be worth something,
:02:25. > :02:29.just not swept under the carpet. Somebody needs to be accountable and
:02:30. > :02:33.we think that is the driver. Jack and Lorraine Sweeney and their
:02:34. > :02:39.granddaughter died in the bin lorry crash. Now the families have lodged
:02:40. > :02:44.a bill of criminal letters to allow them to prosecute Harry Clarke. The
:02:45. > :02:48.natural course of justice will be a criminal prosecution. If the driver
:02:49. > :02:53.is acquitted, the driver is acquitted. The family can thereafter
:02:54. > :02:56.move on. In six years they can at least say they have done their best
:02:57. > :03:02.for the parents and daughter they lost. A deserted scrap yard in the
:03:03. > :03:06.East End of Glasgow where a woman was raped. She successfully brought
:03:07. > :03:10.a private prosecution, only the second such case last century. There
:03:11. > :03:17.have been nonsense. The legal hurdles for this sort private keys
:03:18. > :03:21.are tough. The Lord Advocate must grant concurrence, signifying he is
:03:22. > :03:26.happy for it to go ahead. If he doesn't, the High Court can still
:03:27. > :03:29.allowed, is allowing that is a sufficiency of evidence, whether the
:03:30. > :03:33.case has a good chance of succeeding. The court must also
:03:34. > :03:37.establish if there are exceptional circumstances to allow a private
:03:38. > :03:42.prosecution, bearing in mind the Crown has decided not to bring
:03:43. > :03:46.charges. Last August, the senior prosecutor, the Lord Advocate, told
:03:47. > :03:52.me why in law the bin lorry driver couldn't be prosecuted. It is quite
:03:53. > :03:56.clear, there is no dispute, Mr Clarke was unconscious at the wheel
:03:57. > :04:01.of the bin lorry. He is not in control of the bin lorry, so he
:04:02. > :04:05.doesn't have the required criminal intention, unless you can
:04:06. > :04:09.demonstrate foreseeability. What does that mean? It means it must be
:04:10. > :04:15.foreseeable, in other words, Mr Clarke, as a result of his ongoing
:04:16. > :04:21.medical condition, must know that he was unfit to drive on that day. The
:04:22. > :04:25.Crown believed that decision remains correct, but this leading QC says a
:04:26. > :04:28.case could have been brought against Harry Clarke, but he recognises how
:04:29. > :04:34.difficult it would be for families to bring a private case against him
:04:35. > :04:40.or against William Payne. One of the concerns I suspect any court dealing
:04:41. > :04:43.with this matter will have will beat the floodgates argument, that if you
:04:44. > :04:49.allow private prosecutions to take place on any kind of regular bases
:04:50. > :04:53.then the courts, potentially, it could be inundated with people
:04:54. > :04:57.making such requests. If the High Court decides not to allow these two
:04:58. > :05:02.tragic cases to proceed, the families will be left with questions
:05:03. > :05:07.unanswered because neither driver give evidence to the fatal accident
:05:08. > :05:10.enquiry, fearing it could prejudice any further prosecution.
:05:11. > :05:13.And joining me in the studio to try and guide us through some of this
:05:14. > :05:15.are a couple of legal brains, Thomas Ross, President
:05:16. > :05:18.of the Scottish Criminal Bar Association and the Blogger Law
:05:19. > :05:26.Lecturer at Caledonian University, Andrew Tickell.
:05:27. > :05:33.As we pointed out, there are tough legal hurdles for these families to
:05:34. > :05:35.overcome. Firstly, convincing the man who ruled against a criminal
:05:36. > :05:42.prosecution that a private prosecution should go ahead, what
:05:43. > :05:46.are the chances? That wouldn't be fatal. If the Lord Advocate was to
:05:47. > :05:50.take the view that he could not support a prosecution it would still
:05:51. > :05:55.be possible for them to petition the court to enable it to go ahead. They
:05:56. > :06:00.have an uphill struggle in relation to that because the Lord Advocate
:06:01. > :06:04.has declared publicly that, in his view, there is insufficient
:06:05. > :06:10.evidence. Is there a conflict of interest in having the Lord Advocate
:06:11. > :06:13.involved in this decision? I don't think so. He has refreshed look at
:06:14. > :06:18.this but he doesn't have the last word. This is a decision that will
:06:19. > :06:24.be taken by judges based on the law and that is quite right. The High
:06:25. > :06:28.Court can still give the go-ahead if it runs the case as a good chance of
:06:29. > :06:34.succeeding, what are the chances of that, given the Crown has already
:06:35. > :06:40.decided not bring charges? It is almost impossible to assess because
:06:41. > :06:45.the only recent case took place in the 1980s and that was a case where
:06:46. > :06:48.there had been a procedural mess up and, in short, everyone was
:06:49. > :06:53.delighted the prosecution should go ahead. There was no counterargument
:06:54. > :06:56.in relation to God so we are entering new ground so far as the
:06:57. > :07:02.tests which will be applied by the High Court are concerned. They have
:07:03. > :07:06.used language such as exceptional and special circumstances and
:07:07. > :07:10.language of that type. It might be difficult for them to argue that in
:07:11. > :07:13.the decision by one of the law officers to the effect that there is
:07:14. > :07:20.insufficient evidence would constitute special circumstances. Is
:07:21. > :07:23.the case that there are now two private prosecutions running
:07:24. > :07:27.alongside one another, does that make it more or less likely that the
:07:28. > :07:33.High Court would ruin these are exceptional circumstances? A good
:07:34. > :07:37.question. I think the families, the first petitioners might be worried
:07:38. > :07:42.because the floodgates argument must be in the minds of judges. Here we
:07:43. > :07:47.have two private prosecutions are being brought forward and as Thomas
:07:48. > :08:11.said, the person is exceptional and special circumstances.
:08:12. > :08:13.the families involved in this. Are you convinced that the right
:08:14. > :08:20.decision was taken in each of these cases? I am not, to be honest, but
:08:21. > :08:24.the right decision was taken in the bin lorry case, however it has to be
:08:25. > :08:29.said that the Lord Advocate takes thousands or tens of thousands of
:08:30. > :08:32.decisions every year and that is the one which has been identified. He
:08:33. > :10:18.asked 100 one which has been identified. He
:10:19. > :10:21.haven't seen the bill of criminal matters, but there are many charges
:10:22. > :10:26.which would cover the allegations which have been made against him.
:10:27. > :10:29.Also, his interests have to be considered because he has
:10:30. > :10:34.effectively been given finality by the letter of the Lord Advocate.
:10:35. > :10:37.There wouldn't have been a lawyer in the country who would have said to
:10:38. > :10:41.him if he asked for advice at that stage that you may be the first
:10:42. > :10:48.person in 100 years to be made the subject of the bill of criminal
:10:49. > :10:51.letters in these circumstances. It is unusual to have two private
:10:52. > :10:57.prosecutions at the same time. Do you think there needs to be a leak
:10:58. > :11:02.again at the law in these cases? Is it fit for purpose? It does the
:11:03. > :11:08.old-fashioned. We have two in a century and two in the course of two
:11:09. > :11:11.days. It shows you that this will be something in number of aggrieved
:11:12. > :11:19.families and individuals will look at and think they could do that. It
:11:20. > :11:20.is something we may have to look at. There we must leave it. Thank you
:11:21. > :11:23.both coming in this evening. A deferential culture in which stars
:11:24. > :11:25.were untouchable and managers That's what allowed Jimmy Savile
:11:26. > :11:30.to perpetrate decades of sexual abuse at the BBC, according
:11:31. > :11:32.to a leaked draft report of Dame Janet Smith's review
:11:33. > :11:35.into the former presenter, published by the investigative
:11:36. > :11:39.website Exaro News. The Director General has described
:11:40. > :11:41.it as a dark chapter So how did Savile evade
:11:42. > :12:02.detection for so long? Jimmy Savile, one of the biggest
:12:03. > :12:05.stars in the country. ADG, TV presenter and charity fundraiser.
:12:06. > :12:11.For almost five decades he groomed a nation. Jimmy Savile was a sexual
:12:12. > :12:16.predator who abused children, staff and visitors at institutions all
:12:17. > :12:21.over the country. The BBC was no exception. In fact, it made him a
:12:22. > :12:29.star and give him access to victims. Victims like Marion who worked at
:12:30. > :12:33.the BBC in the early 70s. When she asked Savill for a request on his
:12:34. > :12:40.radio show, she was invited to his caravan to recorded. I got up to go
:12:41. > :12:46.and he said, does it deserve a case? I went to kiss on the and suddenly I
:12:47. > :12:53.was pushed back on the bed and he was on top of me and from somewhere
:12:54. > :13:00.he put a light out. He was very strong. He pinned me down but he was
:13:01. > :13:04.slobbering up and down my neck. For more than three years now, Dame
:13:05. > :13:08.Janet Smith has been investigating the culture and practices at the
:13:09. > :13:13.corporation during the four decades saddle spent at the BBC. According
:13:14. > :13:18.to a leaked draft of the review, Southwell committed 61 sexual
:13:19. > :13:22.assaults, including for rates. These took place in virtually every BBC
:13:23. > :13:27.premises he worked in, including Glasgow. The report also suggests it
:13:28. > :13:33.is possible that another predatory child abuser could be lurking
:13:34. > :13:39.undiscovered in the BBC. Even today. How did Southwell get away with it?
:13:40. > :13:43.There was a deferential culture at the BBC that meant that people who
:13:44. > :13:47.worked at the BBC who had some idea or knew what was going on Beard
:13:48. > :13:51.reporting it to anyone in a senior position and there was a deferential
:13:52. > :13:58.culture toward stars. They were untouchable. Of course, there were
:13:59. > :13:59.rumours, many of them. Jimmy Savile himself talked about them to the
:14:00. > :14:16.journalist Lisa Rowe. It is easy for me to say I do not
:14:17. > :14:23.like children. That puts a lot of salacious tabloid people off the
:14:24. > :14:28.hunt. Are you saying that tabloid people do not pursue this is he or
:14:29. > :14:37.is he not a paedophile line? Yes. Since reports of Jimmy Savile's
:14:38. > :14:46.abuse became public many people have come forward. The report will be
:14:47. > :14:51.valuable in helping us to understand what happened and to do everything
:14:52. > :14:59.in sure it does not happen again. The review has said that this is an
:15:00. > :15:02.early draft which has changed considerably. While I am impatient
:15:03. > :15:07.to learn those lessons that responsible thing must be to act on
:15:08. > :15:13.the final report which we have yet to see. It is due in six weeks. It
:15:14. > :15:21.is not expected to find any manager personally responsible but it will
:15:22. > :15:25.find deep flaws in the institution. The culture stops people reporting
:15:26. > :15:27.what the new and the ability for people to all the Russell is even
:15:28. > :15:42.worse now than it was then -- to all the whistle is even worse
:15:43. > :15:49.now. Before we came on air I spoke
:15:50. > :15:52.to writer and broadcaster Stuart Cosgrove and from London
:15:53. > :16:03.the Guardian's media editor Jane How damaging is this at a corporate
:16:04. > :16:12.level for the BBC? It is like an undertaker to bomb. They have been
:16:13. > :16:17.meeting for the release. Yesterday she said it would take another six
:16:18. > :16:30.weeks. Last night the draft copy was leaked. Really damaging. The worst
:16:31. > :16:37.sort of crimes that the BBC was culpable, they were largely
:16:38. > :16:43.exonerated in this draft report but Dame Janet Smith did move quickly to
:16:44. > :16:49.see this as an out of date report, there are some things that are going
:16:50. > :16:57.to change. But the horror that was the Jimmy Savile scandal for the BBC
:16:58. > :17:09.led to one DJ leaving, it has led to full revelations about sexual
:17:10. > :17:17.assaults in every part of the BBC. All these of all things. One of the
:17:18. > :17:25.assaults was on camera. Some of the assaults were against children as
:17:26. > :17:35.young as nine. Anything which remains the public what went on
:17:36. > :17:40.cannot say anything but damaging. This is an early draft but it looks
:17:41. > :17:49.like the one at the top will be blamed. It is untenable. If you go
:17:50. > :17:55.back to the high period when much of these accusations were made I
:17:56. > :17:59.remember vividly in the early 1990s doing an interview with the
:18:00. > :18:02.journalist which was broadcast on Channel 4 in which the issue was
:18:03. > :18:09.directly addressed and where Jimmy Savile was named and where that was
:18:10. > :18:14.seen within the wider industry as a mainstream fault about Jimmy Savile.
:18:15. > :18:21.It was not in the margins, it was discussed within the media. I find
:18:22. > :18:25.it untenable that people at the BBC at a high level were not suspicious
:18:26. > :18:30.of that. Secondly, this is to do with the
:18:31. > :18:36.cultural nature of the BBC, the BBC is a culture that refers up to
:18:37. > :18:41.senior managers. The idea that there can be 64 incidents across the
:18:42. > :18:46.various studios including Queen Margaret Drive studios in Glasgow,
:18:47. > :18:49.studios in Manchester, London, various different things that have
:18:50. > :18:57.been accused, that somehow they stayed within security S and never
:18:58. > :19:02.made it up to senior management I find that unbelievable. The report
:19:03. > :19:07.fox about this culture of deference and the power of celebrity. Is it
:19:08. > :19:11.plausible that people just did not want to tell all the celebrities
:19:12. > :19:16.because they thought they would get it in the neck? There are a couple
:19:17. > :19:20.of things in the report which shows the culture in the 1970s and 1980s
:19:21. > :19:28.when a lot of these crimes were being carried out, but also worrying
:19:29. > :19:32.signs that these have not improved. A child said something was happening
:19:33. > :19:37.and she was effectively hustled out of the studio.
:19:38. > :19:48.A teenage girl said something and they said that is just Jimmy Savile
:19:49. > :19:54.fooling around. In the report, in the final summary,
:19:55. > :19:58.Dame Janet Smith said that where she felt child protection measures had
:19:59. > :20:06.been is used because of legal measures and where women were more
:20:07. > :20:13.respected, when it came to whistle-blowers, people at the BBC
:20:14. > :20:17.being confident to speak up, she thought that had got worse, and all
:20:18. > :20:22.the people that had top to her said it would only do so if we could do
:20:23. > :20:25.so anonymously, they were running if it goes back to the BBC that they
:20:26. > :20:33.had to criticise anybody more senior, they would, because of this
:20:34. > :20:38.culture of not having job security, they were worried that they would
:20:39. > :20:44.lose their job in a competitive field. Lots of people want to work
:20:45. > :20:48.for the BBC. And the culture of celebrity was interesting and
:20:49. > :20:51.worrying because if anything the culture of celebrity, with
:20:52. > :20:57.presenters being paid more, being seen as above the law, with
:20:58. > :21:01.producers and staff building being deferential and allowing them to get
:21:02. > :21:05.away with behaviour that is not acceptable, that has continued, and
:21:06. > :21:10.the report ends by saying that is the danger. Is that a continuing
:21:11. > :21:15.problem? You must meet a lot of young staff in broadcasting. Do you
:21:16. > :21:20.hear stories these days about harassment and bullying? Would did
:21:21. > :21:23.the confidence to report it? There is a distinction to be made between
:21:24. > :21:28.those areas of those industries where there is still a culture of a
:21:29. > :21:37.job for life, within the media industry, not only is it freelance
:21:38. > :21:41.and short-term, many productions are also outsourced to independent TV
:21:42. > :21:45.production companies and are at arms length from the BBC and that makes
:21:46. > :21:50.it difficult for you to have that culture where a whistle-blower can
:21:51. > :21:54.be confident of their future. At First Minister's Questions
:21:55. > :21:58.earlier, it was child care provision and council budgets that
:21:59. > :22:01.came under scrutiny. The First Minister defended her
:22:02. > :22:03.plans to extend free childcare after they were branded
:22:04. > :22:17.a great big con by Labour. Let as get this absolutely clear.
:22:18. > :22:22.The First Minister needs 650 new nurseries but she has reduced the
:22:23. > :22:27.capital budgets to build them. She needs ?880 million for childcare
:22:28. > :22:32.services but she has reduced council budgets by ?500 million. Only in the
:22:33. > :22:35.world of the SNP will that deliver a childcare revolution. The First
:22:36. > :22:47.Minister's childcare policy is a mess. Is she hoping valence are just
:22:48. > :22:50.too busy to notice Mr Mark to be fair to Kezia Dugdale I know that
:22:51. > :22:58.her day-to-day working experience involves a rather large mess
:22:59. > :23:03.otherwise known as the Labour Party. No wonder it is it worth that is
:23:04. > :23:08.uppermost in her mind. She will be a where, or she should be aware, John
:23:09. > :23:17.Swinney has eyes like that, that the capital budget has been re-profiled,
:23:18. > :23:20.money will be reallocated to local authorities in future years.
:23:21. > :23:23.With me to talk about that and some of the day's other news
:23:24. > :23:25.is Amy Dalrymple - Vice Chair of the Centre
:23:26. > :23:27.for Scottish Policy, And Magnus Gardham -
:23:28. > :23:43.Re-profiling, what does that mean? It means cuts. It is one of the
:23:44. > :23:52.iPlayer euphemisms that we have encountered. I thought Kezia Dugdale
:23:53. > :23:58.did well today although I am in two minds as to how effective that line
:23:59. > :24:03.is going to be. We will hear a lot from the SNP about this promise to
:24:04. > :24:09.double the amount of free childcare available. For Labour it makes sense
:24:10. > :24:12.to say, a significant number of families are not getting the
:24:13. > :24:16.childcare which they are entitled to know because of the way it is
:24:17. > :24:21.delivered. It makes sense for them to lay down a marker before the
:24:22. > :24:26.election. Having said that Labour to find themselves talking about what
:24:27. > :24:30.will probably be a popular SNP policy and Labour still do not have
:24:31. > :24:34.a policy of their own. Ultimately, although they were wise to lose
:24:35. > :24:39.this, the first master had a good comeback where she said, where is
:24:40. > :24:44.Labour policy on this? If they cannot deliver on this childcare
:24:45. > :24:57.policy Victor be a public backlash? The problem you have got is that
:24:58. > :25:00.Labour has not got a comeback. You are going to have problems with
:25:01. > :25:07.this. I am glad there is a cross-party consensus that you have
:25:08. > :25:12.got a recruitment problem in care professions are across-the-board,
:25:13. > :25:18.not just childcare. If -- therefore you are going to find it difficult
:25:19. > :25:22.to make a policy to improve services. Across the board they need
:25:23. > :25:28.to be doing more work in terms of identifying high that is going to
:25:29. > :25:31.happen and there are other surrounding policies that are not
:25:32. > :25:37.going to help. The former SNP deputy leader Jim
:25:38. > :25:41.Sillars has said he will be campaigning for the UK to leave the
:25:42. > :25:48.EU. He said he has been astonished by how many SNP figures were not
:25:49. > :25:53.willing to speak out stop are you aware of a silent minority in the
:25:54. > :25:59.party? I am not. I am not surprised that Jim Sillars has said this. If
:26:00. > :26:04.you look at the interventions of Jim Sillars during the referendum
:26:05. > :26:10.campaign, one of his reasons for independence was that it would give
:26:11. > :26:15.Scotland the opportunity to leave the EU. He makes a couple of points
:26:16. > :26:19.about this. He believes the EU the situation is our hostile to the
:26:20. > :26:25.notion of independence and would not be helpful if it came to a second
:26:26. > :26:29.referendum. He is coming at it from an old-fashioned idol and from the
:26:30. > :26:34.left which sees the EU is being more about trade and big business than
:26:35. > :26:39.the rights of workers. And yet in the 1980s he was the architect of
:26:40. > :26:43.the SNP independence in Europe campaign stop the SNP used to be
:26:44. > :26:49.against EU membership stop are you surprised he has taken this view
:26:50. > :26:56.now? When you look at his logic it is to do with a lot of what Magnus
:26:57. > :27:04.outlined and what happened in the referendum. And it does fit. Back
:27:05. > :27:09.when he was designing and independence in Europe policy it was
:27:10. > :27:13.politically the right thing to do at the time and there is nothing wrong
:27:14. > :27:24.with moving with The Times if the facts change. That I did chuckle
:27:25. > :27:32.when I saw the news that he had come out in favour of an exit because it
:27:33. > :27:43.was done in atypical Jim Sillars we. It is quite lustily.
:27:44. > :27:53.-- quite blustery. It will be interesting to see what impact this
:27:54. > :28:00.will have on the campaign. It'll have a slight impact. Liberal really
:28:01. > :28:05.like the EU. Labour are the next keenest. SNP after that. That does
:28:06. > :28:13.not reflect the SNP position. It might be that Jim Sillars vestige
:28:14. > :28:20.chimes with some SNP supporters who say the EU in the same way that they
:28:21. > :28:26.say this UK as obstacles to two independents. Jim Sillars has now
:28:27. > :28:32.held out the olive branch to the person running the Labour leave
:28:33. > :28:45.campaign. We will see different formations.
:28:46. > :28:53.News about Ed Miliband's stone. It was broken up. I suppose you can
:28:54. > :28:59.understand why that was not detailed in election invoices. A big mistake?
:29:00. > :29:06.It was terrible. It looked desperate. Politicians should not
:29:07. > :29:08.write things on stones. They should not write things about tuition fees,
:29:09. > :29:13.pledges. It was dreadful. That's it for tonight
:29:14. > :29:15.and for this week. Eight famous pensioners are looking
:29:16. > :29:34.to retire to an exotic land... I had never thought
:29:35. > :29:38.about India, but maybe! ..enjoying the fantastic
:29:39. > :29:41.local cultures, discovering true
:29:42. > :29:44.spiritual enlightenment... ..and finding out if they could
:29:45. > :29:49.spend their golden years... Wow! It really does feel like home.
:29:50. > :29:53.You come face-to-face with yourself. It's been a long time coming -
:29:54. > :30:19.nine years since he died - but at last, the full story of
:30:20. > :30:24.the death of Alexander Litvinenko,