:00:00. > :00:13.The Scottish education system used to be the envy of the world.
:00:14. > :00:15.But as the BBC Scotland documentary Educating Sir Tom
:00:16. > :00:17.showed this evening, he believes it's now failing
:00:18. > :00:21.Our politicians all say they will close this attainment gap.
:00:22. > :00:24.Tonight, they will face questions from an invited audience
:00:25. > :00:27.containing pupils, teachers, parents and educational academics.
:00:28. > :00:32.the Scottish Government's Education Secretary,
:00:33. > :00:33.Angela Constance, and she's joined by three other
:00:34. > :00:40.Willie Rennie is here for the Liberal Democrats.
:00:41. > :01:11.And Ruth Davidson for the Scottish Conservatives.
:01:12. > :01:15.Let's get started straight away with our first question,
:01:16. > :01:19.and it comes from Nuala McBride, who's an S5 pupil at
:01:20. > :01:21.St Ninian's High School in East Renfreshwire.
:01:22. > :01:26.What would you like to ask the panel?
:01:27. > :01:29.How will you ensure quality of opportunity for all young
:01:30. > :01:46.We know this is a problem, the gap between children from all and high
:01:47. > :01:50.income households starts early. By age 12 to 14 pupils from better off
:01:51. > :01:55.areas are more than twice as likely as those from deprived areas to do
:01:56. > :02:00.well in numeracy. Angela Constance, you are in charge. How will you
:02:01. > :02:04.ensure equality of opportunity? It is important we take a system is
:02:05. > :02:08.wide approach. This Government has done more than any other Government
:02:09. > :02:12.to expand massively early learning and childcare and that is crucial to
:02:13. > :02:16.give children the best start to their education. It is also
:02:17. > :02:21.important that we have the right evidence and the right information
:02:22. > :02:23.about children's progress. We have introduced The National improvement
:02:24. > :02:29.framework which is about gathering the evidence to ensure that we
:02:30. > :02:37.remain focused on closing the attainment gap. You have had eight
:02:38. > :02:42.years to do this. Why is it still so wide? It is important to remember we
:02:43. > :02:46.have a good education system in Scotland, attainment is improvement
:02:47. > :02:49.and we are actually improving the attainment gap. But we all know
:02:50. > :02:53.there is more work to be done and we need to pick up the pace in
:02:54. > :02:58.particular areas and the faster improvement. One area of really good
:02:59. > :03:02.innovation in Scotland's education system is developing the young
:03:03. > :03:08.workforce agenda. We know that young people will read school better
:03:09. > :03:12.qualified than ever before and that nearly 92% of young people will
:03:13. > :03:19.leave school and going to a positive destination, either work, continued
:03:20. > :03:23.education, or to an apprenticeship. That is something to be really proud
:03:24. > :03:29.of. But we want to make sure that all children get every chance to
:03:30. > :03:33.succeed, so we are taking a broad view of attainment. Hires and
:03:34. > :03:38.advanced Highers, which are at a record high - they are very
:03:39. > :03:43.important, but so are wider qualifications that relate to his
:03:44. > :03:47.skills for life and skills for work. We have a good education system and
:03:48. > :03:51.we are determined to make it a great education system for every child in
:03:52. > :03:55.Scotland. We have started to lay those foundations but we will
:03:56. > :04:00.definitely be doing much more. Willie Rennie, you are shaking her
:04:01. > :04:06.head there. I think Angela is deluded. Scotland's once proud
:04:07. > :04:10.education system is slipping down the international ranking. We have
:04:11. > :04:15.got standards not matching the best in the world. We have to recognise
:04:16. > :04:20.that after eight, nine years in Government, Angela's Government is
:04:21. > :04:25.not succeeding the weight she says. We should be investing in nursery
:04:26. > :04:35.education much more than we are, getting to rolled into nursery
:04:36. > :04:39.education. Also at pupil premium. That has been successful donor
:04:40. > :04:45.sites. Less successful in secondary schools. Yes, I'd has not fared down
:04:46. > :04:51.into the secondary school call reject. But it is already making a
:04:52. > :04:56.great impact. Those are the two things I think we should be doing to
:04:57. > :05:01.close the attainment gap and give equality of opportunity for every
:05:02. > :05:07.body. Kezia Dugdale, what is the difference between what Labour is
:05:08. > :05:12.proposing and what the Lib Dems are proposing? I share a Angela's
:05:13. > :05:17.ambition to give every child the best start in May. It is hard to see
:05:18. > :05:22.how you can do that after cutting ?500 million of local council
:05:23. > :05:26.budgets across the country making teacher's jobs harder. Labour's
:05:27. > :05:33.policy is a fair starts fund, getting additional money into
:05:34. > :05:37.schools, the way we would raise that additional money is introducing a
:05:38. > :05:41.50p top rate of tax. We would ask that the 70,000 people in Scotland
:05:42. > :05:46.to another ?150,000 a year would pay more tax. We would ring fence that
:05:47. > :05:49.money and give it in the form of grants of ?1000 power entitled
:05:50. > :05:56.people directly to the headteacher, empowering the head teacher to make
:05:57. > :06:00.those decisions. So the SNP are saying they will spend more money
:06:01. > :06:04.but it does not need more tax. Why does your proposal need more tax? We
:06:05. > :06:10.have to recognise if we want to give kids the best possible chance, offer
:06:11. > :06:14.a full curriculum, evidence is demonstrating that students in
:06:15. > :06:17.Scotland are studying fewer subjects and having to make choices much
:06:18. > :06:21.earlier in their careers. That is not good for the future of our
:06:22. > :06:26.economy. There are schools in Scotland now that cannot even put on
:06:27. > :06:29.three sciences. How are we going to get all those great jobs for the
:06:30. > :06:34.future if our pupils are leaving school without the sciences that
:06:35. > :06:37.they need? Education is not just a social policy, it is also economic
:06:38. > :06:42.policy, and the sooner we realise that the better. We will come back
:06:43. > :06:45.to the audience in a moment, particularly the idea of extra tax
:06:46. > :06:49.to pay for this. But Ruth Davidson, the other parties are pledging to
:06:50. > :06:53.spend more money on closing the attainment gap. With the
:06:54. > :06:57.Conservatives spend more? Absolutely. But we are not asking
:06:58. > :07:03.people on ?12,000 a year to stump up the extra tax. I don't want people
:07:04. > :07:10.on low paid jobs to pay for the SNP's legacy in Government. There
:07:11. > :07:16.was 200 bill money spent on a computer system that doesn't work.
:07:17. > :07:23.Only 80% of the money spent on schools actually goes... We want to
:07:24. > :07:29.see more of the money make it through the school gate. 20% of it
:07:30. > :07:34.doesn't. Some of it is being used well, some of it is not. We also
:07:35. > :07:39.think we have to be honest about what is happening in Scotland. The
:07:40. > :07:42.Scottish budget has gone up 3% in the last three years, but the money
:07:43. > :07:47.that has gone the council has gone down by 2%. That the funding choice
:07:48. > :07:50.that the SNP Government has made, and it should be honest about that
:07:51. > :07:57.choice. It should be honest about the choice it has made to cut
:07:58. > :08:00.152,000 bases in our apologies, because in tertiary education, we
:08:01. > :08:03.believe there should be a rebalancing between universities and
:08:04. > :08:11.colleges and not sacrifice our college sector for the shibboleth of
:08:12. > :08:15.university fees. Any thoughts from the audience? More money to spend on
:08:16. > :08:26.the problem, is that the solution? Would you pay more tax? In terms of
:08:27. > :08:32.how college students are funded, some students are funded by a
:08:33. > :08:35.discretionary budgets rather than higher education students who are
:08:36. > :08:45.funded by the student awards agency for Scotland alone. This year that
:08:46. > :08:51.funds is ?2.45 million short. I have a bit of difficulty understanding
:08:52. > :08:55.how we are seeing these are the opportunities we are giving to the
:08:56. > :09:00.most vulnerable learners, but actually the funding isn't there to
:09:01. > :09:03.provide the money they need right now for shouldn't studying in our
:09:04. > :09:07.colleges right now. I have difficulty understanding how they
:09:08. > :09:19.are supposed to sustain their qualification when we know that only
:09:20. > :09:26.six 29% of -- six to 9% are leading with both occasions. Literacy and
:09:27. > :09:31.numeracy levels are dropping, and we need to invest in skills, because
:09:32. > :09:36.schools are facing absolute budget cuts. Local authorities are telling
:09:37. > :09:41.you that and you boring them. When you see invest, you mean schools,
:09:42. > :09:50.teachers? Give money to the headteacher is to decide how to
:09:51. > :09:54.spend that money. I am a deputy headteacher. I can see what is
:09:55. > :09:57.happening in skills. We are one of these coasting schools who in the
:09:58. > :10:03.last ten years have increased our five Highers from 32% to 56%. We are
:10:04. > :10:07.doing very well by all our young people. We are closing the gap and
:10:08. > :10:12.I'm interested in the attainment fund which seems to be going to
:10:13. > :10:16.various places that are not closing the gap. There is an expertise in
:10:17. > :10:20.the school and I think we should be asking headteachers, asking teachers
:10:21. > :10:27.in the school, how are you doing that? But nobody does. Interesting
:10:28. > :10:30.talking about the attainment fund, I think the Scottish Government has
:10:31. > :10:35.done a good job of that, please to say they have doubled it. But I
:10:36. > :10:37.think instead of giving it to a VCR per areas, they should be making
:10:38. > :10:49.sure the money follows virtual drink. -- follows poor children. The
:10:50. > :10:55.money does not follow the pupils that need it. It is a bit broad
:10:56. > :10:59.brush. You can do this in a way that it follows the people. Willie Rennie
:11:00. > :11:05.causes people premium. There are other names, but it will elsewhere,
:11:06. > :11:14.and it could work in Scotland. -- it works elsewhere. Why not have the
:11:15. > :11:18.money follow the child, Angela? We know there is a strong link between
:11:19. > :11:21.deprivation and low attainment. Initially what we have done with the
:11:22. > :11:26.attainment Scotland fund is focused on the schools and the communities
:11:27. > :11:30.with the largest proportions of children from deprived backgrounds.
:11:31. > :11:36.But the majority of children in poverty go to schools in areas not
:11:37. > :11:39.categorised as deprived. As of now the Scottish attainment challenge
:11:40. > :11:44.will reach more than half of Scotland's Perez children. As a
:11:45. > :11:48.result of the announcement by John Swinney last week to double the
:11:49. > :11:52.attainment Scotland fund, we will be able to extend the reach of that
:11:53. > :11:58.fund. -- Scotland's Perez the children. We will be looking at how
:11:59. > :12:06.to combat the link between rural poverty and they're pretty --
:12:07. > :12:11.deprivation. Every one of the opposition parties here tonight by
:12:12. > :12:15.some shape or form are emulating a pupil premium system that was
:12:16. > :12:20.introduced south of the border that has not worked. The evidence is not
:12:21. > :12:26.there. The National audit committee at best said it was mixed. We know
:12:27. > :12:33.there are schools in England to have massive concentrations of England
:12:34. > :12:38.from the most impoverished baggers were spending per pupil has
:12:39. > :12:44.decreased. We will go with what is tried and tested. We will of course
:12:45. > :12:47.create space for innovation. We have an opportunity to do that now with
:12:48. > :12:54.an increase in the attainment Scotland fund. I have to say we have
:12:55. > :12:59.an Education Secretary here that has just admitted there is an issue here
:13:00. > :13:02.in Scotland on her watch with children from poorer backgrounds.
:13:03. > :13:06.She is seeing if they go to schools in more affluent areas, it doesn't
:13:07. > :13:11.matter. They understand there is an issue, but they will try to is hit
:13:12. > :13:24.about 45%, so the rest don't matter. That is not good enough. Let me
:13:25. > :13:28.bring Willie Rennie in here. Angela is ignoring the evidence from the
:13:29. > :13:34.Sutton trust, Ofsted and the National Audit Office. All CD pupil
:13:35. > :13:42.premium is either working or has potential. -- they all say that it
:13:43. > :13:48.is working. It has got to be spent wisely. Of course, and it has to be
:13:49. > :13:53.additional support for tuition, homework, support and equipment and
:13:54. > :13:57.so on. It cannot just be part of the mainstream budget. That is why we
:13:58. > :14:05.are proposing 1p on income tax for education. We think that will make a
:14:06. > :14:09.big impact together. Angela said there is no evidence it works. She
:14:10. > :14:13.has absolutely no evidence that her attainment fund is working at all.
:14:14. > :14:26.So how can she publish one scheme and then leap to another scheme she
:14:27. > :14:29.has no evidence to support? Some of you want the money to follow the
:14:30. > :14:35.child but what about young people who experienced more casement moves
:14:36. > :14:42.than any other children quiz-macro myself, I had 30 placement moves.
:14:43. > :14:51.I'm about to experience my 50th. How do you propose we have the funding
:14:52. > :14:57.for the children? For looked after young people, their attainment in
:14:58. > :15:08.education may have at but compared to the general population, it's just
:15:09. > :15:16.not good enough. There are a whole heap of things we need to do. We
:15:17. > :15:20.need a cultural attitude change. I heard the ministers say there, it's
:15:21. > :15:25.about what is tried and tested, and we had the First Minister 's sake,
:15:26. > :15:30.what matters is what works. Look at Wales. That is where ideas come from
:15:31. > :15:36.and where our idea of a fair start fund is rooted in. He is right to
:15:37. > :15:44.say to Angela, only a third of local councils get attainment money, 1500
:15:45. > :15:49.schools don't. What I'm arguing for is more additional resources that
:15:50. > :15:52.was good at the headteacher, less than in Wales, headteachers have a
:15:53. > :15:58.list of options they can choose to spend that money on, it can't just
:15:59. > :16:02.get into bureaucracy, it goes to targeted schemes that are programmed
:16:03. > :16:08.to raise attainment standards in schools and works. They have seen
:16:09. > :16:13.attainment close by 10%. Significant progress. If what matters is what
:16:14. > :16:23.works, Labour and Wells is producing results. What did you think of the
:16:24. > :16:28.answer to your question? I think that you said, Angela, you spent
:16:29. > :16:37.?500 million on trying to close the attainment gap. When you compare
:16:38. > :16:44.that to the ?160 billion you are spending on Trident, I don't see how
:16:45. > :16:49.it bears any comparison. I am opposed to Trident and my party is
:16:50. > :16:54.opposed to the renewal of Tridentine I stand by Wales, not bombs. Thank
:16:55. > :16:58.you very much. Unfortunately, it is the UK Government that makes
:16:59. > :17:02.decisions about the renewal of Trident. I wish that wasn't the case
:17:03. > :17:03.but that's the weight is for the time being.
:17:04. > :17:05.Let's move on the next questions from Caitlin Gallagher,
:17:06. > :17:08.who is a pupil at Notre Dame High School in Glasgow.
:17:09. > :17:12.Do you feel that the recurring budget cuts to education
:17:13. > :17:13.have a detrimental impact
:17:14. > :17:29.Absolutely. Half of what councils do is education so took up ?500 million
:17:30. > :17:33.from councils will directly impact on the quality of teaching and
:17:34. > :17:38.learning in schools, therefore it will have a colossal impact on
:17:39. > :17:43.schools. John Swinney dismisses it and says it will have no impact. He
:17:44. > :17:48.says the cuts from Westminster are evil and dramatic and will be passed
:17:49. > :17:53.on to local authorities. But they will have a colossal impact. It will
:17:54. > :17:57.be on teachers, on classroom assistants, equipment and supplies
:17:58. > :18:02.in schools, all of those will be impacted upon and that is why we say
:18:03. > :18:06.there should be a big investment in education. We have talked about
:18:07. > :18:12.nursery education, the pupil premium. There should be a repairing
:18:13. > :18:19.the budget to schools to make sure we invest property. And you would
:18:20. > :18:24.like that funded on an extra penny on income tax? How many of you think
:18:25. > :18:29.you would be willing to pay an extra money if you knew it would be based
:18:30. > :18:34.in education? A fair number of you. The vast majority, I would say.
:18:35. > :18:43.Perhaps you are taking the wrong view here by resisting. If it could
:18:44. > :18:47.be assured that it would be spent on education, perhaps people would be
:18:48. > :18:56.willing to pay for it. The SNP is not opposed to the taxation system.
:18:57. > :19:00.I am not opposed to people on my income or anybody on this panel are
:19:01. > :19:05.paying more income taxes but as the daughter of parents who worked on
:19:06. > :19:09.low income occupations, I am opposed to the poor paying twice for Tory
:19:10. > :19:16.austerity and the poorest of those on the lowest incomes being
:19:17. > :19:21.penalised through taxation to pay for services. But if it was targeted
:19:22. > :19:30.education for disadvantaged families, they would get the benefit
:19:31. > :19:37.of this, wouldn't they? There is a debate about how progressive income
:19:38. > :19:40.taxes. Our propositions for the powers that are coming our way in
:19:41. > :19:46.terms of the increased financial powers of the Scottish Parliament,
:19:47. > :19:51.we will do that through our manifesto, what we are saying is we
:19:52. > :19:58.are not in favour of an increase in taxation for the poorest paid. The
:19:59. > :20:06.average salary in Scotland is ?27,000. When you look at the work
:20:07. > :20:09.done by the child poverty action group, it costs working parents
:20:10. > :20:15.money to send their children to school, whether it is school
:20:16. > :20:18.dinners, school trips, school uniforms, and while this government
:20:19. > :20:24.has protected school clothing grants, while we have extended the
:20:25. > :20:27.universal reach of free school meals, there are hard-working
:20:28. > :20:32.families who are counting every penny, and that is what I am opposed
:20:33. > :20:36.to, the poor being penalised twice for Tory austerity. But the broader
:20:37. > :20:40.point about local government funding, the Scottish Government
:20:41. > :20:46.have had our budget slashed by the Conservatives. The local government
:20:47. > :20:51.settlement is not without its challenges but once you count
:20:52. > :20:56.additional money, it's less than 1%. ?4.6 billion is spent on education
:20:57. > :21:02.in Scotland. It is actually increasing and local authorities
:21:03. > :21:06.this year plan to spend more on education. This government have
:21:07. > :21:11.identified money. One of the first things I did was to ensure that we
:21:12. > :21:16.invested money to protect teacher numbers which is imperative. These
:21:17. > :21:22.cuts have been handed down by Westminster. You don't believe in
:21:23. > :21:26.increasing tax. She said she has protected teacher numbers. There
:21:27. > :21:30.were 4000 fewer teachers now than when her party came to government.
:21:31. > :21:33.If we will have a nice debate, we have to be honest about where we
:21:34. > :21:36.stand, and that includes will be standard terms of money. In the last
:21:37. > :21:42.three years, the Scottish budget has gone up by 3% and the Scottish
:21:43. > :21:48.Government has reduced money to councils by just under 2%. They have
:21:49. > :21:56.made that choice to cut council budgets, they have decided to
:21:57. > :22:02.devalue councils. There is also the issue... So these cuts are handed
:22:03. > :22:08.down by a Conservative government at Westminster. The budget to the
:22:09. > :22:12.Scottish Government has gone up by 3%. The Scottish Government has cut
:22:13. > :22:17.the budget to councils by 1.9% in that same period. So the council
:22:18. > :22:23.budget has gone down by their budget has gone up. You can pass on that
:22:24. > :22:28.extra money to councils. But what I have also said, more of the money
:22:29. > :22:36.needs to go directly to the schools. We have discussed the attainment
:22:37. > :22:41.fund. But also, only 80% of the money there is spent given to
:22:42. > :22:44.councils for education, funding, actually goes through the school
:22:45. > :22:49.gate. Some of that I am sure I spend very well by local councils on other
:22:50. > :22:52.issues, may be centralised purchases, but more that money could
:22:53. > :22:56.go to headteachers because they know exactly what their children need.
:22:57. > :23:03.What Tom Hunter said in the film is one size does not fit all. People
:23:04. > :23:05.are best no other leaders within school campuses, headteachers,
:23:06. > :23:15.senior management and teachers. Do you agree? I want to go back to the
:23:16. > :23:21.point about tax. What would that mean if we put a penny in income
:23:22. > :23:28.tax? ?180 extra a year. Not an insignificant amount of money. Each
:23:29. > :23:33.day, 40p. That is what we would ask teachers to pay. The price of not
:23:34. > :23:38.doing that is 4000 fewer teachers, classroom assistants coming out of
:23:39. > :23:40.classrooms, breakfast club is disappearing, community centres
:23:41. > :23:46.closed at weekends, not having enough money to buy books, the
:23:47. > :23:49.photocopying budget gone, no supply teachers, devastation of the
:23:50. > :23:55.education provision in Scotland. It doesn't have to be this way.
:23:56. > :23:58.Scottish Government figures show spending on education was ?1.6
:23:59. > :24:03.billion last year, and increased in the year before. The Scottish
:24:04. > :24:08.Government have a separate body which looks at how we perform our
:24:09. > :24:11.public services and they produced statistics that showed that the
:24:12. > :24:16.amount of money were spent on primary school pupils has gone down
:24:17. > :24:21.by ?561 per pupil of the last five years. But you don't object to those
:24:22. > :24:25.figures? We need to look at the trend of five years. Every single
:24:26. > :24:29.year for the past five years, the amount of money that local councils
:24:30. > :24:35.and had to spend on education has decreased. Last year, ?20 million in
:24:36. > :24:41.the year before that, ?147 million. A cut is a cousin pupils are feeling
:24:42. > :24:49.it, staff are feeling it, it has got to stop. You have acknowledged that
:24:50. > :24:54.you are increasing the tax rate which may raise nothing so how will
:24:55. > :25:04.you fund the fair star fund? It's based on a 50p tax rate which will
:25:05. > :25:09.raise ?70 -110 million. That was before HM C made it harder to do
:25:10. > :25:13.with their tax liabilities to the United Kingdom. The Labour Party
:25:14. > :25:18.would use that to invest in education. None of the other parties
:25:19. > :25:22.are prepared to start up and say, if we need to grow our economy by
:25:23. > :25:26.investing in skills and education of our people, we have to pay for it.
:25:27. > :25:30.This is than progressive way to do it in the right thing to do. You are
:25:31. > :25:33.a socialist and I don't understand why you don't back it. I am keen to
:25:34. > :25:42.bring in the audience here. Lady over here. All the evidence tells us
:25:43. > :25:47.that if we want an education system that is world-class, we have to pay
:25:48. > :25:53.for it. Countries like Finland, which are regularly held up as good
:25:54. > :25:57.comparisons, pay a lot of money in income tax and other taxes to
:25:58. > :26:02.sustain an education system like what we want so we can't get it for
:26:03. > :26:09.nothing. Young man over there with his hand up. If you are planning on
:26:10. > :26:12.investing, how can you do that without raising any more money? You
:26:13. > :26:17.talked about Westminster cutting your money and using money, but it
:26:18. > :26:30.seems like the money will not appear from nowhere. I understand you off
:26:31. > :26:36.to Oxford? Congratulations! The first one from your school to do
:26:37. > :26:44.that? Fantastic. You know you are talking about. What helped you? My
:26:45. > :26:49.school is really special. My headmaster walked really hard. He
:26:50. > :26:56.worked really hard to push our team up. We were in the documentary and
:26:57. > :27:00.we were shown as an example of how we have deprivation but can still
:27:01. > :27:10.have high attainment. A lot of it is individual aspiration. Culture is
:27:11. > :27:14.important. That is presumably quite difficult to build. Leadership was
:27:15. > :27:20.talked about a lot in the documentary this evening but how do
:27:21. > :27:25.you built a network of fantastic leaders? I don't want to embarrass
:27:26. > :27:31.you any further than your pupils already have! They speak highly of
:27:32. > :27:36.your leadership. But how can that be replicated across Scotland? Finland
:27:37. > :27:40.told us exactly how to do this. The number one thing people want to be
:27:41. > :27:46.is to be a teacher in Finland, more so than any other career. Why? It's
:27:47. > :27:49.the lifestyle it gives them, they get a decent wage, lots of time to
:27:50. > :27:55.develop their own skills, they collaborate with other teachers, it
:27:56. > :27:59.is a career like it used to be in Scotland. Teachers in Finland also
:28:00. > :28:04.have a tonne it to make decisions about how learning should be
:28:05. > :28:09.progressed. They are not hampered in the way many teachers would construe
:28:10. > :28:16.the situation here. In Finland, it is also done three municipalities.
:28:17. > :28:21.You don't have to take the score out of public authority control, you can
:28:22. > :28:26.do it to the council system if you trust teachers to do what they do
:28:27. > :28:30.best. I don't want to in barrister young man sitting to my left but I
:28:31. > :28:38.would like to say that one of the groups he forgot to mention was his
:28:39. > :28:44.parents. In Scotland, we have got a great group of parents and they are
:28:45. > :28:48.underutilised and in primary school and in early education, the parents
:28:49. > :28:53.are more welcome. I have got three secondary age children. I might as
:28:54. > :29:00.well not exist, really. They don't want me on to score but the score
:29:01. > :29:04.does not mean the school either and that is an underutilised group of
:29:05. > :29:09.people who could help schools. That is what makes the difference between
:29:10. > :29:11.schools that are costing and schools are not coasting, they go out and
:29:12. > :29:16.find the other partners and use them.
:29:17. > :29:29.You are not his mum, by any chance? Know, but I would be proud to be.
:29:30. > :29:34.What I think in a cross in the documentary was innovation. Trying
:29:35. > :29:38.things out - they might fail, but they might succeed. That kind of
:29:39. > :29:44.innovation and risk approach is the right one to take. We want to give
:29:45. > :29:47.power to teachers. Rather than the strangling of public sector workers
:29:48. > :29:50.we often get in this country now. We spend years training them and then
:29:51. > :29:57.we tell them exactly what to do. I think we should allow them to use
:29:58. > :29:59.the skills and expertise they have developed through their training.
:30:00. > :30:01.Let's take another question from our audience, this time
:30:02. > :30:03.from Megan Beattie, who works for the Social
:30:04. > :30:12.What would you like to ask the panel?
:30:13. > :30:21.Do you think that a free school created by a private school would
:30:22. > :30:25.help bridge the attainment gap? We like things that work. We have
:30:26. > :30:32.looked at three schools, academies, different models. I am not
:30:33. > :30:35.particularly fast about private schools -- not particularly bothered
:30:36. > :30:38.about private schools taking on comprehensive skills. What we are
:30:39. > :30:42.seeing downside is that private schools are closing in some areas
:30:43. > :30:46.because comprehensive schools are so good, there is no reason to go. I
:30:47. > :30:51.think that is great. I want people to not have to pay to get the best
:30:52. > :30:57.education, I want everyone to have the best education. The issue comes
:30:58. > :30:59.back to this ideal leadership, freedom, responsibility. I have
:31:00. > :31:06.Assad First Minister's Questions several times for the First Minister
:31:07. > :31:13.to consider -- I have asked the First Minister, there is a school
:31:14. > :31:19.where the teachers and pupils want to take it on and run themselves.
:31:20. > :31:24.Jordanhill School is outside of local authority control. It now
:31:25. > :31:28.costs ?10,000 more to buy a house in the catchment area because it is so
:31:29. > :31:32.good. These things can work in Scotland. But we have an ideology
:31:33. > :31:39.that says no, councils must run every school. I think that is wrong.
:31:40. > :31:42.I think we should try, whether it is academies, free schools. I am not
:31:43. > :31:46.wedded to it being private schools. I think charities could do it, we
:31:47. > :31:50.have seen that work elsewhere. One other thing I would say,
:31:51. > :31:54.irrespective of the structure of the school, you can have peer to peer
:31:55. > :31:58.leadership as well. That involves headteachers that have turned
:31:59. > :32:02.schools around, helping headteachers in other skills. Hearing of skills
:32:03. > :32:06.that are struggling with schools that are succeeding. -- peering up
:32:07. > :32:11.schools that are struggling with those are succeeding. How do we get
:32:12. > :32:16.the leaders of tomorrow if the teachers of the day never want that
:32:17. > :32:20.job? There is one other thing as well. A scheme mentioned in the
:32:21. > :32:23.documentary called teach first takes the brightest and best graduates
:32:24. > :32:27.from university and set them free in schools over two years to teach
:32:28. > :32:30.while the try to learn about teaching as well. We don't do it in
:32:31. > :32:35.Scotland, but we do in the rest of the UK. Last year 100 of the best
:32:36. > :32:38.Scottish graduate went to teach first downside. They are working in
:32:39. > :32:53.underprivileged schools in England. They will not come back to Scotland.
:32:54. > :33:03.-- went down south. I spoke to ... Sir Tom Hunter showed that it
:33:04. > :33:11.worked. Ruth Davison said teach first works. Why not try it? There
:33:12. > :33:15.is a difference between looking at evidence and the evidence base for
:33:16. > :33:21.your interventions and having room for innovation that does not include
:33:22. > :33:26.experimenting. Is teach first an experiment? I was going to talk
:33:27. > :33:35.about free skills. Looking at the evidence is reading -- in Sweden,
:33:36. > :33:43.which has had a damning report. The evidence down south is shaky. There
:33:44. > :33:46.are many academy schools that would not give such a positive
:33:47. > :33:51.presentation. What we know about what works is quality teaching. That
:33:52. > :33:55.is why I have worked so hard to invest in teachers and to protect
:33:56. > :34:00.teacher numbers since I have been in this position. Teachers need to be
:34:01. > :34:06.professionally qualified, professionally trained teachers. The
:34:07. > :34:12.Government has met on more than one occasion with teach first, scheme
:34:13. > :34:17.and that was devised as a result of the difficulties in inner-city
:34:18. > :34:20.schools in London. We say to them, come with a model that meets the
:34:21. > :34:26.needs and the challenges of education in Scotland but also
:34:27. > :34:29.recognises that we have registered teachers, professionally qualified
:34:30. > :34:35.teachers, and that is very important to the standard of education in this
:34:36. > :34:40.country. Attainment is rising and we are closing the attainment gap, but
:34:41. > :34:44.of course there is more to do. The teaching union is opposed to Teach
:34:45. > :34:51.First, and opposed to academies. Are you afraid to challenge the unions
:34:52. > :34:56.on this? Not at all. There are many things the union and I agree on.
:34:57. > :34:59.Teachers having professional qualifications would be one. There
:35:00. > :35:04.have been aspects of the national improvement framework that we have
:35:05. > :35:07.had a difference perspective. It is important as a Government that we
:35:08. > :35:11.work collaboratively with the teaching workforce and support them
:35:12. > :35:15.to do what they can to support our children. There are very few parents
:35:16. > :35:19.out there who would be supportive of unqualified teachers in their
:35:20. > :35:24.schools. That cannot be a way forward. Of course we can enrich a
:35:25. > :35:28.child's experience by that broader community experience and a school
:35:29. > :35:32.needs to be at the heart of the community, and yes, curriculum for
:35:33. > :35:36.excellence was about more professional freedom and innovation.
:35:37. > :35:38.The challenge we have now is that we are at a watershed moment for
:35:39. > :35:44.curriculum for excellence and it needs to reach its still ambition.
:35:45. > :35:47.We will not reach the full ambition for the curriculum, schools or
:35:48. > :35:53.children by having unqualified teachers in our schools. Despite the
:35:54. > :36:00.fact that Teach First works down south, in America? Kezia Dugdale,
:36:01. > :36:04.would you consider Teach First on academies or you ideological oppose?
:36:05. > :36:08.It is not about being ideological oppose. There is no evidence to show
:36:09. > :36:12.that it works. Although my parents were teachers and I am a bit
:36:13. > :36:15.offended by the idea you could throw an unqualified teacher into a
:36:16. > :36:23.classroom after weeks of training and expect them to get on with it. I
:36:24. > :36:27.think we have got a really high value of education in Scotland. It
:36:28. > :36:31.is something I'm very proud of. We taken very seriously. If we want the
:36:32. > :36:36.best possible graduates to go on to be teachers, we have to make careers
:36:37. > :36:39.in teaching what people want to do. We have two PR teachers better, give
:36:40. > :36:44.them more opportunities to learn skills on the job, create space for
:36:45. > :36:50.them to collaborate with each other. -- we have to pay our teachers
:36:51. > :36:56.better. Chris's rationale for everything is to return to the
:36:57. > :37:02.market, turn to private solutions to fix things. -- Ruth's rationale.
:37:03. > :37:05.Looking at Finland, one of the best education systems in the world, has
:37:06. > :37:09.proven that if you invest in teachers and let them get on with
:37:10. > :37:16.the things they need to do, you will get the results we want to see. Lady
:37:17. > :37:20.in the middle row? The thing with Teach First that I find challenging
:37:21. > :37:24.is a focus on academic rigour and not necessarily a focus on the
:37:25. > :37:42.academic Leigh Pastoral care of the child. I don't understand how we
:37:43. > :37:47.cannot talk about -- the experience of six weeks of training completely
:37:48. > :37:54.contrasts with doing a bachelor of education. 80% of their training is
:37:55. > :38:05.being done in concert with being in schools. Willie Rennie? Castle view
:38:06. > :38:10.and Saint Andrews had succeeded. They are achieving greater results
:38:11. > :38:13.without Teach First because we are investing in the quality of teachers
:38:14. > :38:16.in schools. That is why they are making a difference. Leadership,
:38:17. > :38:20.innovation is what we should be focused on rather than diddling
:38:21. > :38:26.around with governance arrangements that the governments seem obsessed
:38:27. > :38:30.with. There is no evidence that it would work. I believe there is a
:38:31. > :38:35.teacher in the audience who used to teach at a free school? From your
:38:36. > :38:39.own experience, did it make a difference? Did it literally set you
:38:40. > :38:45.free other teacher? I have to say not at all. All that it achieves
:38:46. > :38:49.were even more unrealistic expectations on the teachers. I feel
:38:50. > :38:54.that given the private background of the academies that are taken over,
:38:55. > :38:58.they fail to appreciate the workload, the day-to-day
:38:59. > :39:02.expectations placed on a teacher. It reached the point where if you were
:39:03. > :39:05.seen leaving the school any time before 8pm, that was a failing on
:39:06. > :39:10.your part and you were not working hard enough. That was really the
:39:11. > :39:14.message that was driven towards us. Results did not improve in the five
:39:15. > :39:18.years that that school had been an academy, and in fact 12 of my
:39:19. > :39:23.ex-colleagues are being made redundant this summer. So I feel
:39:24. > :39:28.quite strongly against the idea of our schools going down the Academy
:39:29. > :39:34.route. I wonder if that is something that everyone here would agree with.
:39:35. > :39:40.Does the governors of your school make a difference, do you think?
:39:41. > :39:44.Very little difference, to be honest. I think some things I would
:39:45. > :39:48.want recognised in the debate - what makes an Andrews successful was the
:39:49. > :39:55.quality of teachers in Saint Andrews. I am a KI got a chance to
:39:56. > :40:02.lead a teaching -- I am lucky that I got to lead the teaching team I do.
:40:03. > :40:06.You have to focus on the quality of teachers. It won't do if we don't
:40:07. > :40:10.get the very best people, train them well and give them freedom to do
:40:11. > :40:16.what they are there to do. How do you get the best people? We have a
:40:17. > :40:21.very rigorous recruitment process and we look for certain qualities,
:40:22. > :40:27.one of which is an understanding of what makes great learning. One is
:40:28. > :40:31.aspirations for young people and the evidence says that the aspirations
:40:32. > :40:34.of individual teachers is directly proportionate to the aspirations of
:40:35. > :40:38.the young people in front of them. We look for aspirations, teachers
:40:39. > :40:42.who understand how you get the best out of young people in terms of how
:40:43. > :40:49.you cure for them, how you support them. Those are all part of our
:40:50. > :40:52.regiments. -- recruitment. One thing the curriculum for excellence has
:40:53. > :40:55.not done as teach teachers how to teach. It has given a framework
:40:56. > :41:00.within which headteachers can work with teachers to decide what are the
:41:01. > :41:04.most effective ways of taking forward teaching and learning. That
:41:05. > :41:08.is what we have got to keep doing. My worry about the budget, and I
:41:09. > :41:13.think it is a new art in the budget that might be missed. Yes, we are
:41:14. > :41:17.keeping teacher numbers are, what part of the price we pay for that is
:41:18. > :41:21.teachers spending more time doing things that teachers should not do
:41:22. > :41:29.because the people who used to do them are not there any more. -- we
:41:30. > :41:36.are keeping numbers up. Would free schools help, do you think, Megan?
:41:37. > :41:41.No. I think the problem is that private schools are funded by the
:41:42. > :41:45.parents of the children there and they invest in their children's'
:41:46. > :41:50.education. I am not saying that parents from deprived backers don't
:41:51. > :41:56.invest. I think the thing the lady brought up about involving parents
:41:57. > :42:00.on the same level as told in is very important. As well as keeping up
:42:01. > :42:04.teaching standards, there is a problem of facilities in schools. I
:42:05. > :42:09.visit schools regularly in my job and I see pupils sharing for
:42:10. > :42:13.textbooks between three science classes. That is not acceptable. We
:42:14. > :42:16.have fantastic teachers but we don't have the resources to back them up
:42:17. > :42:20.and bring these fantastic children that I work with wit the Social
:42:21. > :42:29.Mobility Foundation into higher education. Lady in the blue? Are
:42:30. > :42:34.part of the debate has been touched on about investing in families to
:42:35. > :42:37.make sure they are not living in grinding poverty and have the time
:42:38. > :42:42.and resources to invest in their children. That is about investing in
:42:43. > :42:45.employment, social security, also removing some of the financial
:42:46. > :42:53.barriers to schools such as the cost of uniform, cost of school trips,
:42:54. > :43:00.pics etc. We are a boat out of time, but on that, do you think the
:43:01. > :43:05.attainment gap can be close, Angela? Yes, with the right evidence and the
:43:06. > :43:11.correct targeting of resources. Close rather than just narrowed,
:43:12. > :43:19.Kevin? Absolutely, but it can just be a teachers problem. For society
:43:20. > :43:22.as a whole. It can be closed but as the documentary said we have to
:43:23. > :43:26.raise the threshold of all children. That is why we have to make the
:43:27. > :43:32.investment in education with a penny on income tax. Yes, it can be close,
:43:33. > :43:38.and the earlier bestride the better we will do. That is it for tonight.
:43:39. > :43:43.Thank you very much to our panel, our audience for all the fantastic
:43:44. > :43:46.contributions, and to you, the audience for watching.
:43:47. > :43:50.I'll be back at the same time tomorrow night with Scotland 2016.