03/03/2016

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:00:00. > :00:07.The French President wades into the European debate,

:00:08. > :00:27.warning of "consequences" if we vote to Leave.

:00:28. > :00:33.As the French hint they'll end UK border controls in Calais if there's

:00:34. > :00:40.a Brexit vote, Liam Fox tells us why he thinks its time to Leave.

:00:41. > :00:42.The battle lines are drawn for the Holyrood election -

:00:43. > :00:48.And the international students who aren't allowed to stay

:00:49. > :01:00.If there's an out vote, "There will be consequences

:01:01. > :01:01.in the financial trade, in the economic development

:01:02. > :01:09.No, not a flashback to Scotland's Better Together

:01:10. > :01:13.campaign but the latest intervention in the war of words over Europe,

:01:14. > :01:17.this time from no less than the French President.

:01:18. > :01:20.And for the Remain campaign there were more helpful words

:01:21. > :01:33.There is no upside to leaving the European rain. You can't do away

:01:34. > :01:37.with the regulations and stop paying, because as Norway has found

:01:38. > :01:42.out, if you want to be a part of the single market you still pay and

:01:43. > :01:46.obeyed. But you have no seat at the table. David Cameron is right to

:01:47. > :01:53.negotiate some sensible reforms and has protected the pounds Sterling

:01:54. > :01:57.and has limited the flow of migration by cutting down public

:01:58. > :02:01.payments to immigrants. Those are sensible reforms and the way to

:02:02. > :02:05.achieve more or less by staying in Europe. Staying in Europe will be

:02:06. > :02:06.better for the UK economy and tourism and jobs and leaving gets

:02:07. > :02:09.you nothing. Michael O'Leary. Joining me now from Edinburgh

:02:10. > :02:11.is the former Defence Secretary, Conservative MP and staunch

:02:12. > :02:24.Eurosceptic, Liam Fox. There is no upside to leaving the

:02:25. > :02:30.EU. Do you think people will be swayed by that? He was wrong on

:02:31. > :02:35.every single particular when he said people would be exempted from closer

:02:36. > :02:39.rain, but it won't be because there is no treaty change. He said Britain

:02:40. > :02:43.would be exempted from the migration flow we have had and we will not be

:02:44. > :02:48.because we have had no change to the concept of free movement of people.

:02:49. > :02:51.We have had 1.16 million European migrants coming to the UK and the

:02:52. > :02:57.last decade and that will not change. But what about the argument,

:02:58. > :03:01.he says you still pay and obey but don't have a seat at the table? The

:03:02. > :03:05.other side are making a great play of the fact that you cannot see what

:03:06. > :03:10.the UK outside the EU will look like. The argument about Norway was

:03:11. > :03:14.used and I hear about all the time including in Edinburgh this evening.

:03:15. > :03:22.The fact is if you look at Nordby, which is in the economic area but

:03:23. > :03:27.not customs rain, people say, Norway has too abide by all the rules but

:03:28. > :03:31.doesn't get a seat at the table, but in 2000 Norway has only had 9% of

:03:32. > :03:36.single market legislation applied to it so have done quite well. The

:03:37. > :03:41.United Kingdom has any very different position. We have a

:03:42. > :03:47.massive trade imbalance with Europe. They sell some ?67 billion worth of

:03:48. > :03:51.goods more to us each year than we sell to them, therefore it is hugely

:03:52. > :03:56.in their interest to maintain a free trade situation, where the United

:03:57. > :04:01.Kingdom to leave. We're not a small country and are one of the biggest

:04:02. > :04:07.economies. Perhaps we should have some self-confidence. You saw how

:04:08. > :04:09.important the voice of business was during the Scottish independence

:04:10. > :04:16.referendum and voters do not like uncertainty? The remaining campaign

:04:17. > :04:19.keep telling us that if we leave the European rain it is a leader in the

:04:20. > :04:24.dark and we don't know what to expect so what can we expect? We now

:04:25. > :04:27.the day after we leave we will still have a permanent seat on the

:04:28. > :04:33.Security Council at the UN and will still be in the G-7 and G20, we will

:04:34. > :04:36.still have one of the biggest military budgets and economies and

:04:37. > :04:41.be at the centre of the Commonwealth and Natal with the special

:04:42. > :04:45.relationship with the United States, it hardly adds up to isolationism,

:04:46. > :04:49.and the skier stories being put about just do not take account of

:04:50. > :04:54.the strength the United Kingdom has and Project feared is rather coming

:04:55. > :04:57.into Project surrender, implying Britain simply could not manage on

:04:58. > :05:01.its own in the wider world and clearly given our success and

:05:02. > :05:07.trading capabilities and innovation and skills, that is nonsense. What

:05:08. > :05:10.do you make of what has been coming out of France today, especially the

:05:11. > :05:14.economy minister saying France could allow migrants to travel unchecked

:05:15. > :05:18.to the UK if British voters vote to leave? I am sure it is a complete

:05:19. > :05:23.coincidence that we are getting these arguments coming out of France

:05:24. > :05:28.as the Prime Minister is they are visiting. I don't buy it at all. In

:05:29. > :05:30.October last year the French interior minister in charge of the

:05:31. > :05:38.situation said it would be against the interests of France to in any

:05:39. > :05:42.way go back on the treaty in 2003. He said it would cause a

:05:43. > :05:46.humanitarian catastrophe in France because it would act as a magnet to

:05:47. > :05:50.people smugglers and migrants from all over the world to go to the

:05:51. > :05:53.north of France and create a situation they couldn't handle.

:05:54. > :05:56.There's a reason that Britain and France came to a bilateral deal

:05:57. > :06:00.outside of the European rain, which was nothing to do with membership,

:06:01. > :06:06.and that was because it was in the interests of both countries to do

:06:07. > :06:10.so, as it would weather not Britain is inside the EU. The government

:06:11. > :06:12.tried this a few weeks ago and it blew up on their face and I am

:06:13. > :06:21.surprised they have tried it again. Thank you. It wasn't all good news

:06:22. > :06:26.from the business community for remain. The official view of the

:06:27. > :06:30.Chambers of commerce is neutral but earlier today the Director General

:06:31. > :06:37.made comments that will be a shot in the arm for the league campaign. I

:06:38. > :06:41.have come to the view that there are risks in the short-term to leaving

:06:42. > :06:47.and risks in the long term to staying. The negotiations the Prime

:06:48. > :06:53.Minister came out with one actually an adequate and far short of what

:06:54. > :06:57.the BCC wanted and actually on the balance of probabilities now,

:06:58. > :07:02.Britain could have a brighter future outside of the European Union, just

:07:03. > :07:04.as it would have done had we stayed in.

:07:05. > :07:07.Listening to that was John Edward, senior campaign spokesperson

:07:08. > :07:22.Britain could have a brighter future outside of the EU according to the

:07:23. > :07:29.Director General of the British Chambers of commerce. Are you

:07:30. > :07:33.worried that opposition to Brexit is soft and in? I don't think it is and

:07:34. > :07:36.people are starting to have arguments we should have and there

:07:37. > :07:42.is an awful lot of could have and should have endless. The one thing

:07:43. > :07:45.that separates the two cases as we are and we have a system built up

:07:46. > :07:50.over decades with our closest allies and on the other side we have

:07:51. > :07:54.nothing. We're not the ones projecting fear. We have no

:07:55. > :07:59.blueprint of what things will look like the day after and we simply do

:08:00. > :08:05.not like they're so go for something completely unknown! But even on your

:08:06. > :08:08.own side, the Business Secretary, a Eurosceptic, the best argument he

:08:09. > :08:13.could muster is that uncertainty is the enemy of jobs and growth, hardly

:08:14. > :08:17.a rallying call? That is hers and I am not here to speak for any

:08:18. > :08:24.political party. You're stressing security and stability? But there

:08:25. > :08:27.are also huge opportunities. Any of the risks that come up, surely the

:08:28. > :08:33.way to deal with these is to be working together with our closest

:08:34. > :08:36.neighbours and allies and most importantly, something the member

:08:37. > :08:40.for North Somerset choose to ignore when talking about a treaty that is

:08:41. > :08:44.important, is that all of this is built on legal treaties meaning you

:08:45. > :08:47.and I and everyone in Scotland has the equal right to anyone in Europe

:08:48. > :08:51.to contest these things and make sure rights and protections are

:08:52. > :08:55.defended, and they've is no talk from anyone about what will happen

:08:56. > :08:58.to all those rights and protections of the day after. You said at the

:08:59. > :09:04.launch of the Scottish campaign that you want to protect the positive

:09:05. > :09:07.fact -based case to remain in Europe. What do you make of the

:09:08. > :09:10.video release that came out today from Britain stronger in Europe?

:09:11. > :09:14.There will be people making deliberate sides and we have taken

:09:15. > :09:21.the decision in Scotland to be upbeat and I am already rejecting

:09:22. > :09:26.the choice of project Cheer. Those are the questions being asked of the

:09:27. > :09:31.campaign. The problem is it isn't project fear when people say

:09:32. > :09:38.factually inaccurate. For people to say that's not true. The pointers in

:09:39. > :09:42.all of this, for a very long time, people have had a likely to delay

:09:43. > :09:47.and over one stories about how bad Europe is. We are part of Europe and

:09:48. > :09:50.are strong, comfortable and confident country on this and

:09:51. > :09:54.everyone has a bigger voice in this as anybody else, and we say we

:09:55. > :09:59.should be using that voice rather than putting the ball down and

:10:00. > :10:04.walking off the pitch. It sounded rather ominous about consequences,

:10:05. > :10:08.you would be happy with the French President's intervention today. Liam

:10:09. > :10:13.Fox says he doesn't buy it? He doesn't buy that Liam Fox is the

:10:14. > :10:16.President of France. Clearly, there will be consequences and we have

:10:17. > :10:21.taken over 50 years to build up a whole series of treaties or with

:10:22. > :10:25.rights for individuals and companies and businesses and he is talking

:10:26. > :10:28.about the free movement of workers, so all these workers have these

:10:29. > :10:29.rights and of course there will be consequences if we decide to tear

:10:30. > :10:31.them apart. Thank you. Before we're asked to cast a vote

:10:32. > :10:34.on Europe, we'll have the Holyrood And if this week is anything to go

:10:35. > :10:38.by, the battle lines are well Another victory for the SNP may look

:10:39. > :10:42.like a foregone conclusion but the other parties

:10:43. > :10:45.are going all out to find any chink In a moment, we'll be debating how

:10:46. > :10:52.the contest is shaping up but first, Huw Williams has been

:10:53. > :11:14.on the battlefield. Larping is a serious business,

:11:15. > :11:21.real-life Dungeons Dragons, and turns out this is a hotbed. It is a

:11:22. > :11:25.commonplace of political reporting to be talking about battle lines

:11:26. > :11:30.being drawn and parties colonising issues in the hopes voters will

:11:31. > :11:34.rally around the flag, but in the run-up to the Holyrood elections, is

:11:35. > :11:42.it helpful to see politics as battle, and do you get the strategy

:11:43. > :11:48.right? You can if it is not particularly ideological. For a

:11:49. > :11:53.topic like taxation it is quite difficult to appeal to left, right

:11:54. > :11:57.and centre, but other things, the standing up Scotland issues, are

:11:58. > :12:02.likely to be relevant to everybody across the range of politics. So if

:12:03. > :12:05.you keep the issue is quite broad and nonideological you can appeal

:12:06. > :12:10.across the spectrum but making it ideological makes it difficult to

:12:11. > :12:13.appeal to a wide range of people. Back on our impromptu battlefield,

:12:14. > :12:19.what do you do if you have been in charge but now you see power,

:12:20. > :12:23.influence being ripped from your grasp. You shouldn't let your enemy

:12:24. > :12:28.consolidate his power and perhaps attack in small groups and split

:12:29. > :12:33.them up. Try to soar dissension within the ranks. And that First

:12:34. > :12:36.Minister's Questions... Voters should have known that when the

:12:37. > :12:40.First Minister said she would get rid of the council tax, what she

:12:41. > :12:46.really meant was that she would keep it. The whole process has been a

:12:47. > :12:51.sham and it wasn't just the council tax. The SNP say fracking is bad and

:12:52. > :12:55.we have proposed a temporary freeze. A big report has been ordered but

:12:56. > :13:01.all the signs are that they are to go ahead and do it anyway. And what

:13:02. > :13:06.if you are the new force in the land, determined to break the old

:13:07. > :13:11.Empire's grip on power? You need to instil loyalty and Euan followers

:13:12. > :13:16.and backtracks attract others to rally to your banner. Maybe it is

:13:17. > :13:22.what they wanted all the time. Does that have anything to do with what

:13:23. > :13:25.is happening here? Before Kezia Dugdale decided to adopt her usual

:13:26. > :13:32.possession of whingeing from the sidelines and in this case criticise

:13:33. > :13:38.the SNP's policy on local taxation, it might be a good idea to have a

:13:39. > :13:43.policy on local taxation yourself! Let's hear the First Minister... No

:13:44. > :13:49.fracking in Scotland because there's a moratorium on fracking. That is

:13:50. > :13:53.what it means! It ain't allowed to happen! And our Viking strategist

:13:54. > :13:57.says if you are rebel force trying to grow in influence, you must be

:13:58. > :14:03.willing to do deals this necessary but keep distinctive, ready to seize

:14:04. > :14:12.power if you see weakness in your opponents. Would any smaller parties

:14:13. > :14:21.be listening to that advice? I'm joined by Kevin McKenna and from the

:14:22. > :14:26.Sunday Herald, do you think we are right in the middle of campaign

:14:27. > :14:31.proper? I think it will get more angry in the weeks ahead. The

:14:32. > :14:35.manifestos have yet to be launched. We are talking the first couple of

:14:36. > :14:40.weeks in April. But I think, fringes, that the Labour Party,

:14:41. > :14:45.ought to be, forget being fracking. I don't hear fracking as being one

:14:46. > :14:50.of the top ten, top 15 issues on the streets. I think that they should be

:14:51. > :14:55.choosing their battleground... You don't think it is a chink in the

:14:56. > :14:59.SNP's armour? I think education all the way, followed by he will.

:15:00. > :15:05.Definitely education. I think when Kezia began to talk about fracking,

:15:06. > :15:10.you called almost sense the joy in some of the government benches.

:15:11. > :15:15.Ian you spoke about the paradox of voters continuing to support the SNP

:15:16. > :15:19.as a party that stands for Scotland, inspite of the fact a majority voted

:15:20. > :15:24.against independence, do you think it will endure in the coming weeks

:15:25. > :15:28.in the duration of the campaign? I think we are still living very much

:15:29. > :15:32.in the shadow of the referendum. Politics in Scotland will be defined

:15:33. > :15:37.by that for the coming political cycle. That is very much to the

:15:38. > :15:42.SNP's strength. Paradoxically, although they lost the referendum,

:15:43. > :15:48.the Scottish voters decided to back the SNP as the party most likely to

:15:49. > :15:53.fight Scotland's corner the most vigorously, even if the majority of

:15:54. > :15:59.Scots voted against formal independence. So the SNP is still in

:16:00. > :16:04.the row there. We saw in the general election that, and the support will

:16:05. > :16:11.continue. But we have at the moment a bizarre game of fiscal poker

:16:12. > :16:16.taking place that Kezia Dugdale raises one Le Penny in tax and

:16:17. > :16:21.Daniel Sturridge see it is and raises -- Nicola Sturgeon raises

:16:22. > :16:25.Council Tax in response. I think it will go on until polling day. There

:16:26. > :16:30.will be lots of positions taken, trying to appear as if the parties

:16:31. > :16:35.are aggressive, raising tax but not really raising it very much.

:16:36. > :16:41.Kevin, when the Council Tax reforms were announced. Nicola Sturgeon

:16:42. > :16:46.announced the ?100 million to be raised to go to education, the

:16:47. > :16:53.battle ground. Is it a sign that the other parties parties are getting to

:16:54. > :16:57.the SNP on this? Nicola Sturgeon has recognised that education should be

:16:58. > :17:01.the main battle field, hence the ?100 million. But if I were in the

:17:02. > :17:07.Labour Party or the Conservatives, I would be looking at the detail.

:17:08. > :17:12.Nicola Sturgeon was asking Kezia Dugdale to come up with the details

:17:13. > :17:16.to her changes in Council Tax but equally, Labour and the

:17:17. > :17:22.Conservatives, should be asking how will they spend this ?100 million?

:17:23. > :17:26.For several years talking about reducing the attainment gap. The SNP

:17:27. > :17:30.in power for nine years, definitely for five years and probably another

:17:31. > :17:34.five years after it. This is an opportunity for them to leave a

:17:35. > :17:39.legacy but so far in the nine years, you could challenge what has been

:17:40. > :18:48.done radically to address that very important issue at the heart

:18:49. > :19:00.What about those who bought into the anti-austerity measures? I say we

:19:01. > :19:03.are going to see this kind of rather incremental, minimalist game of

:19:04. > :19:10.fiscal poker until polling day. Both sides will be trying to assert a

:19:11. > :19:14.claim to be the anti-austerity party, the party of progressive

:19:15. > :19:20.politics, the party prepared to raise taxes. Next there will be a

:19:21. > :19:25.bidding war taking place on thresholds of taxes taken, whether

:19:26. > :19:31.or not Scotland should raise the top rate of tax further to ?50,000 from

:19:32. > :19:35.?40,000. But it is difficult to explain the very minimal tax

:19:36. > :19:39.changes, like it is difficult to explain how the new Council Tax

:19:40. > :19:44.regime is going to work. It all seems minimalist. It is complex and

:19:45. > :19:48.I don't think it will translate into votes. These will not be the

:19:49. > :19:53.decisive issues. Kevin, do you think that if the

:19:54. > :19:57.polls were closer that the SNP would be pursuing a more radical agenda? I

:19:58. > :20:02.don't think so. You could say because the SNP have been in power

:20:03. > :20:07.for nine years, they are set fair for another five and by the balance

:20:08. > :20:13.of probability another five years. If there was a time to be radical,

:20:14. > :20:16.to take risks, this is a three, four, five-term government, they are

:20:17. > :20:21.subject to the same criticism that the Labour Party, the UK Labour

:20:22. > :20:26.Party had in 1997. Tony Blair came in knowing it was a three-term

:20:27. > :20:29.government but was accused by many traditional Labour supporters of not

:20:30. > :20:34.using it to be more radical and to take more risks.

:20:35. > :20:37.Should international students be allowed to stay

:20:38. > :20:41.A cross-party group of MSPs and university leaders has called

:20:42. > :20:43.for the return of post-graduation visas for international

:20:44. > :20:48.All of Holyrood's political parties support bringing back the visas,

:20:49. > :20:51.which were abolished by the UK government in 2012.

:20:52. > :20:54.Catriona Renton has been speaking to some of those who'd

:20:55. > :21:06.These international students are from Strathclyde university. They

:21:07. > :21:15.have taken time out to have a coffee with me. This man is from Mumbai,

:21:16. > :21:21.studying for a PhD in engineering. When I got the opportunity to study

:21:22. > :21:26.for a PhD in Strathclyde, I was looking forward to it.

:21:27. > :21:31.So far, I have found the lifestyle similar. I have grown into the

:21:32. > :21:37.lifestyle of Glasgow. Raj is from Malaysia, his sub-is bio

:21:38. > :21:44.medical engineering. I wanted to do bio medical

:21:45. > :21:50.engineering to go into prosthetics. The most advanced in Europe, until

:21:51. > :21:55.today is here. I am looking for funding to do a PhD, there is not

:21:56. > :22:00.from the international students from our side of the EU to do anything

:22:01. > :22:03.with prosthetics. Ryan is from the United States,

:22:04. > :22:12.doing a Masters in international law. He has not long left on his

:22:13. > :22:17.visa. It runs out in January 2017. I got here last year. Basically they

:22:18. > :22:21.gave me a year and a few months. My programme runs up to that point. As

:22:22. > :22:28.soon as the programme is over, my visa is out. I will have to go.

:22:29. > :22:32.Amy is here from Toronto. I am doing a Masters in psychology

:22:33. > :22:37.there. Is a huge mental health crisis in terms of support workers.

:22:38. > :22:43.The waiting list is as long as two years, right? I think that is

:22:44. > :22:47.negative, turning qualified people who could be helping with that.

:22:48. > :22:51.They all feel that they have a lot to offer but the rules make it hard

:22:52. > :22:56.for them to stay. Ideally I would like to stay, do

:22:57. > :23:01.some work, get experience, work for a company and live in the highlands.

:23:02. > :23:05.It is so nice. I really love that. But the rules keep changing. It is

:23:06. > :23:08.more and more difficult for internationals to get visas. We are

:23:09. > :23:15.all here as international students because we want to be here. That

:23:16. > :23:19.would be incredibly beneficial to the professional world. When we all

:23:20. > :23:22.leave, Glasgow, the UK is losing that enormous chunk of

:23:23. > :23:25.professionals. They hope that things will change so

:23:26. > :23:33.that they can live and work here in the future. Catriona Renton talking

:23:34. > :23:36.Catriona Renton talking to international students.

:23:37. > :23:39.Joining me now to talk about that and some of the day's other news

:23:40. > :23:41.is The Herald's Chief reporter, David Leask and Professor

:23:42. > :23:43.of International Economic History at the University of Glasgow,

:23:44. > :23:48.Welcome to both of you. Let's start with that story on international

:23:49. > :23:52.students. Professor Catherine Schenk you came to the UK as an

:23:53. > :23:55.international student from Canada? I did. I am one of those who came in

:23:56. > :24:00.and stayed. What do you think of the

:24:01. > :24:05.restrictions? I think it is an important signal we are giving to

:24:06. > :24:08.student trying to attract here as a professor at the University of

:24:09. > :24:12.Glasgow, I am aware that we are working in a global market to try to

:24:13. > :24:17.get the best minds, the best students, to bring them to Glasgow

:24:18. > :24:23.to enrich the student community but to be doing the research and sharing

:24:24. > :24:26.it with us. It is a visible barrier, I think to our competitiveness to

:24:27. > :24:31.attract the best and the brightness from around the world.

:24:32. > :24:36.These restrictions were introduced across the UK as there were concerns

:24:37. > :24:44.that the system was being abused. David, do you think it was a problem

:24:45. > :24:48.in Scotland? I am unaware of it, there are more people more capable

:24:49. > :24:52.of policing this. I think it is a concern of wider immigration south

:24:53. > :24:58.of the border. Our politicians agree that this is something that must

:24:59. > :25:05.change. There is a good reason why, I think it has been suggested

:25:06. > :25:11.something of up to ?800 million of foreign students fees and the money

:25:12. > :25:15.spent on campus but my good fast, that energy, culture, having your,

:25:16. > :25:23.why would we want to lose that. Yes, they seem to want to stay. Should

:25:24. > :25:27.Scotland visas be different? We have a slightly more ageing population

:25:28. > :25:32.and some particular skill shortages. There are examples where there is

:25:33. > :25:36.devolved immigration policies, using a point-based system. I'm from

:25:37. > :25:42.Canada... Does it work there? It does. There is a points based

:25:43. > :25:45.system. Points given for the regional locations, those who come

:25:46. > :25:49.are required to stay and work and live there for a period of time

:25:50. > :25:56.before they take full citizenship. Let's move on to Trident. Michael

:25:57. > :26:00.Fallon said that scrapping Trident could jeopardise jobs and millions

:26:01. > :26:03.of pounds of investment in Scotland. This is what the Scottish

:26:04. > :26:08.Conservative leader, Ruth Davidson had to say. I'm sorry, we don't have

:26:09. > :26:13.that clip from her. On this story, does it seem odd, David, do you

:26:14. > :26:20.think that job creation has been placed at the centre of this debate?

:26:21. > :26:25.It is the worst, most expense I have, silliest job creation of all

:26:26. > :26:30.time. They create jobs but you should create jobs with the same

:26:31. > :26:34.money. You should look at the defence, the challenges that face us

:26:35. > :26:39.is it global warming, chaos in the Middle East, and a threat of Russia

:26:40. > :26:44.and make up your minds based on that. There may be other important

:26:45. > :26:47.matters in terms of why to choose Trident, is it international

:26:48. > :26:52.prestige? Obviously he was trying to make a political capital out of

:26:53. > :26:55.this, saying Labour is split on the issue, it might cost jobs in the

:26:56. > :27:01.end. How important do you think it is for Labour to have a coherent

:27:02. > :27:06.position. We have seen that the Tories are split on Europe? I think

:27:07. > :27:11.it is a dangerous precedent. That the Labour Party is in a time of

:27:12. > :27:16.development and evolution. This issue could be an important folk

:27:17. > :27:19.room for the direction where the two parties north and south of the

:27:20. > :27:25.border might evolve in a different kind of way. I think it is a really

:27:26. > :27:29.interesting issue. It is an issue of passion and ideology in the same way

:27:30. > :27:33.that the European referendum is for the Conservative Party. After you

:27:34. > :27:38.have the splits it is hard to knit the people back together. There was

:27:39. > :27:41.criticism of Michael Fallon announcing ?642 million, before the

:27:42. > :27:44.MPs had had a chance to vote on this.

:27:45. > :27:49.They seem to have made up their minds on this.

:27:50. > :27:57.I happen to live in the Trident questions, I think that it has an

:27:58. > :28:04.MSP in Jackie Bailly, very prove Trident but basically is sitting on

:28:05. > :28:09.a giant bomb with lots of pro- yes and pro-independent supporters. And

:28:10. > :28:15.New Zealanders have begun voting in the second stage of a referendum to

:28:16. > :28:21.determine the national flag. The choice between the current Union

:28:22. > :28:27.Jack and four red stars or the newer alternative, a silver fern.

:28:28. > :28:33.Do you think that the flags matter? I think that they do. It is the

:28:34. > :28:40.Union Flag, not the Union Jack. Canada made a similar decision and a

:28:41. > :28:46.similar process in 1965. They went for the maple leaf. The silver fern,

:28:47. > :28:51.maybe it is a theme to have a botanical item. But it reflects the

:28:52. > :28:57.nation that New Zealand has become. It does have a British heritage and

:28:58. > :28:59.a strong Mauri heritage, so reflecting the more cosmopolitan

:29:00. > :29:03.forward-looking nation that New Zealand has become.

:29:04. > :29:08.The Prime Minister has said it is time to remove the Union Flag

:29:09. > :29:13.symbol. That would be a big step? It is but what is fascinating, I don't

:29:14. > :29:20.think that the Union Flag carries the baggage that many in Scotland

:29:21. > :29:25.think it has. Many of us think it is a contaminated brand, contaminated

:29:26. > :29:28.by centuries of the British acting as international priority,

:29:29. > :29:32.trafficking and drug slave labour. But it is a symbol that it is Post

:29:33. > :29:38.Office. There are many that see it that way. So we should not bring our

:29:39. > :29:41.own problems with the Union Flag to this particular issue, which some

:29:42. > :29:45.are doing. You think it is seen negatively

:29:46. > :29:48.abroad? I don't think it is seen in the same way it is here. But

:29:49. > :29:56.differently. I think it has been decontaminated.

:29:57. > :30:00.Thank you for joining us. Thank you for watching. That's it for this

:30:01. > :30:05.week. See you on Monday at the usual time. Goodbye.