:00:00. > :00:00.The Dunblane massacre 20 years ago - the mother of a victim
:00:07. > :00:30.Tonight we're devoting much of the programme to an interview.
:00:31. > :00:34.This weekend will mark 20 years since the morning Thomas Hamilton
:00:35. > :00:37.walked into Dunblane Primary School and murdered 16 children
:00:38. > :00:43.It's still hard to comprehend the full horror - which led to some
:00:44. > :00:45.of the strictest gun laws in the world.
:00:46. > :00:49.The mother of one of the victims has been talking to Jackie Bird,
:00:50. > :00:57.reflecting on events that day and the impact it has had.
:00:58. > :01:04.On the day there was to be a memorial service for my late
:01:05. > :01:09.husband. He died in October. And there was to be a memorial service
:01:10. > :01:16.at Stirling University for Murray, and I was to attend. My mum was
:01:17. > :01:26.coming over to babysit for Catherine, the baby, and I would
:01:27. > :01:30.walk around to school as normal. It was a chilly day, are never see did
:01:31. > :01:35.not wear her school shoes that day, she wore little red wellingtons. And
:01:36. > :01:41.I dropped her off at school completely as normal. I went back to
:01:42. > :01:45.the house. The baby had fallen asleep in the buggy, so I left her
:01:46. > :01:54.sleeping inside the front door, in the front porch. And I don't relieve
:01:55. > :01:59.no what I did. A little while after that I got a phone call from a
:02:00. > :02:07.friend who lived in Perthshire. Barbara, another teacher. Ireland
:02:08. > :02:11.she said, is everything all right? And I said, why wouldn't it be? I
:02:12. > :02:16.was a little surprised that Barbara was falling around nine o'clock in
:02:17. > :02:20.the morning. And she said," there are reports coming over the radio
:02:21. > :02:26.that there is a gunmen in Dunblane Primary School." And at that point I
:02:27. > :02:31.simply did not believe it. I did not give any credence whatsoever. It
:02:32. > :02:35.just sounded like the kind of thing that would be a kind of silly
:02:36. > :02:39.rumour. I went out to check the baby. The baby was still snoozing in
:02:40. > :02:43.the buggy in the front porch, and I became aware that there were
:02:44. > :02:50.parents, people I knew just running towards the school. One of them,
:02:51. > :02:54.another friend, a lady I used to babysit with, we were all in the
:02:55. > :02:59.same baby-sitting circle, she just looked over to where I was and she
:03:00. > :03:05.said," Isabel, there is a gunmen in the school, there is a gunmen in the
:03:06. > :03:12.school!" . And I was perfectly calm. I think I went back inside to get
:03:13. > :03:17.Michael. -- to get my coat. I didn't rush out, I locked the door properly
:03:18. > :03:21.and gathered the baby in the body. And I wandered around to the school.
:03:22. > :03:25.I was just literally around the corner from the school. And there
:03:26. > :03:30.was a great many people milling around and great confusion. This
:03:31. > :03:38.rumour was obvious he been taken very seriously. There were about 650
:03:39. > :03:45.pupils at Dunblane Primary School. I wasn't really worried about Mhairi
:03:46. > :03:50.because I realised the odds where... Her classroom, for example, was
:03:51. > :03:56.upstairs, and I did not think for a minute she would be involved in
:03:57. > :04:00.anything. At one point a senior police officer came to the front of
:04:01. > :04:07.one of the larger houses on the street and said that the only people
:04:08. > :04:12.they wanted to speak to... They wanted people to disperse, the only
:04:13. > :04:17.people who wanted to speak to were parents of children in Gwen Mayor's
:04:18. > :04:25.class. And at that point I did feel... Not panic, but I felt... I
:04:26. > :04:34.was aware that the odds shortened considerably. I was very aware that
:04:35. > :04:43.Mhairi could now be involved in something horrible. What happens
:04:44. > :04:50.then? The police shepherded us into a house, a large house on the Doune
:04:51. > :04:54.Road in Dunblane. We were there for quite a while and then a decision
:04:55. > :04:57.was made that they would put us on a bus. Despite the fact that the
:04:58. > :05:03.school was just that few hundred yards away. They would put us in a
:05:04. > :05:11.bus to get us to the school. Rather than perhaps walking is passed
:05:12. > :05:15.cameras and newspaper people. So we got onto the bus, and because the
:05:16. > :05:19.bus was going very slowly it actually made it, I think, perhaps
:05:20. > :05:25.easier for people to film us and photograph us. We were taken to, I
:05:26. > :05:28.think, the staff room in the primary school, and that was it, just the
:05:29. > :05:34.beginning of the longest week of my life. I was there for hours and
:05:35. > :05:42.hours and hours. With no news. No information. No access to even a
:05:43. > :05:49.radio at that point. So the outside world knew more than you all did?
:05:50. > :05:55.Very much so, yes. At one point... I felt at 1.I had nothing to lose
:05:56. > :06:03.weight tempting to leave. So I gathered up the baby, and there were
:06:04. > :06:09.double doors that were being staffed by a young policewoman. And I do
:06:10. > :06:12.remember her, she was very upset, and I do have a feeling quite angry
:06:13. > :06:22.that she had been rather abandoned to do this job by more senior,
:06:23. > :06:27.perhaps more hardened officers. And when I approached, I think she got a
:06:28. > :06:31.male police officer to come and speak to me and I said that I would
:06:32. > :06:36.like to leave, and he said, "In that case we have a problem." And so I
:06:37. > :06:44.was made to feel that I couldn't leave. I think being perhaps quite
:06:45. > :06:49.middle-class, and obedient, I think at that point I backed off. I wish I
:06:50. > :06:52.hadn't. I wish I had insisted on leaving, because I think at that
:06:53. > :06:58.point, rather than allowing me to leave it would probably have... I
:06:59. > :07:02.think they might have dealt with me. They might have given me some
:07:03. > :07:08.information or some news. What was happening in that room? It was
:07:09. > :07:12.actually very quiet. I was there with the baby, she was only two
:07:13. > :07:15.months old, and she needed a clean nappy, and that was something I had
:07:16. > :07:22.not thought to bring with me when I left the house. So I think... I
:07:23. > :07:27.don't know, I was beginning to get quite annoyed with the police
:07:28. > :07:32.because I needed to change the baby, and so there was a little bit of
:07:33. > :07:36.movement, coming and going. From time to time the police would come
:07:37. > :07:42.in and call out a name and a couple were perhaps disappear. Now, at that
:07:43. > :07:48.point, I made an error of judgment. I thought people who were being
:07:49. > :07:53.called out where perhaps the people for whom the news was worst. And I
:07:54. > :07:56.don't think it dawned on me until later in the process that actually
:07:57. > :08:01.they were calling out the families of the injured pupils so that the
:08:02. > :08:08.good get the parents to the hospital. -- so that they could get
:08:09. > :08:12.the parents. It did not don on me until quite late in the process, and
:08:13. > :08:17.by then we were only going to perhaps two other families and
:08:18. > :08:21.myself. I think at that point began to dawn on me that we were the
:08:22. > :08:27.people who were going to have the worst news, and that they were
:08:28. > :08:30.saving the worst until last. It was such a long day. I don't think the
:08:31. > :08:37.police told me that Mhairi was dead until sometime between three o'clock
:08:38. > :08:41.and half past three. Of course, I had been at the school since about
:08:42. > :08:49.ten. It was a terribly, terribly long wait. And that was very
:08:50. > :08:53.difficult. But you learned later that Mhairi had been taken from the
:08:54. > :09:01.gym hall, injured, seriously injured, but alive. I was very
:09:02. > :09:06.lucky, I was able to speak to the ambulance... Not the ambulance
:09:07. > :09:11.driver, the ambulance attendant, the paramedic who was with her. And he
:09:12. > :09:15.was able to reassure me that she was deeply unconscious, she had suffered
:09:16. > :09:20.a massive headwind and she was not conscious. I suppose it is a
:09:21. > :09:24.parent's worst nightmare that your child will be frightened and wanting
:09:25. > :09:32.you with them. And perhaps asking for you, and you don't appear. So
:09:33. > :09:41.that was actually very consoling. I was very lucky, the way that I met
:09:42. > :09:47.him was something of an accident. And it mattered. It mattered a lot.
:09:48. > :09:51.I also know that there was someone with her in the hospital. I know
:09:52. > :09:54.that. You must understand this was a huge incident, so they were very
:09:55. > :09:57.short staffed, and they needed nurses and doctors to be with the
:09:58. > :10:05.children who were injured, but, very kindly, quite humanely, someone had
:10:06. > :10:09.had the presence of mind to leave I think an auxiliary or even a
:10:10. > :10:19.cleaning lady, and to ask her to be with Mhairi. When she died. And that
:10:20. > :10:22.matters. Despite the fact that she was deeply unconscious, it matters
:10:23. > :10:27.to me that someone was with her, but she did not die alone. But you still
:10:28. > :10:33.feel that you could have been there? We understand that there must have
:10:34. > :10:41.been unbelievable chaos, and organisational chaos. Yes. But for
:10:42. > :10:47.that, if things had happened a bit more quickly, you could have been
:10:48. > :10:53.told sooner? I don't think it was a question of speed. It was a question
:10:54. > :10:56.of... It was the way the police behaved on the day. The police
:10:57. > :11:00.behaved towards the parents of the victims of Thomas Hamilton as if
:11:01. > :11:06.they wear an administrative inconvenience. I think that's the
:11:07. > :11:14.best way to describe it. And I think... I think we did not really
:11:15. > :11:18.picture in the way that they processed the incident, I think we
:11:19. > :11:25.were very coincidental to the incident. I'm not expecting this
:11:26. > :11:34.very well. I think we were on the periphery... We were not in the
:11:35. > :11:37.focus, we were not their priority. It is more than that. We were very
:11:38. > :11:48.low down on their list of priorities. Did you ever challenge
:11:49. > :11:53.the police about that? Yes. And? I went to the school on the day that
:11:54. > :11:59.John Major, the serving Prime Minister, and Tony Blair, the Leader
:12:00. > :12:02.of the Opposition... I went to the school on the day they visited, and
:12:03. > :12:07.I believe I was the only parent who went to the school, I asked for an
:12:08. > :12:10.interview with them. And to be honest, they could not refuse me
:12:11. > :12:17.that. They could not be seen to refuse me. And I asked some quite
:12:18. > :12:23.searching questions about police behaviour. I directed them to John
:12:24. > :12:28.Major. But actually it was Tony Blair who responded to them. Tony
:12:29. > :12:34.Blair was over John Major's shoulder, and he was listening. Over
:12:35. > :12:38.the years, parents of those who were killed have reacted in many
:12:39. > :12:46.different ways. Some have never spoken. Some rarely, and others
:12:47. > :12:52.threw themselves into campaigns to tighten gun laws and increase school
:12:53. > :12:59.security. What path did you take? A little bit of everything. You have
:13:00. > :13:07.to remember that I had a two-month-old baby, and my priority
:13:08. > :13:13.was to look after her. My husband had just died and stop my daughter
:13:14. > :13:19.had just been killed. There was an awful lot to do, there was an awful
:13:20. > :13:24.lot... There was a great deal of activity. There was not a lot of
:13:25. > :13:32.peace in my life. So what I had to do was call about little boy sees of
:13:33. > :13:35.peace for Catherine and I -- a little oasis of peace for Catherine
:13:36. > :13:40.and I so that we could have a normal life, so at the start of her life
:13:41. > :13:44.could have some normality about it. But I did notice in campaigning for
:13:45. > :13:48.tighter gun controls in the UK, and I did that because I felt it was
:13:49. > :13:51.something I could do, and indeed I felt it was something I should do.
:13:52. > :13:58.It is something I still feel very strongly about. There must also be
:13:59. > :14:06.times that what happened at Dunblane crops up randomly. Yes. That can be
:14:07. > :14:13.very awkward. Again, a social worker, who was assigned to my
:14:14. > :14:19.family immediately following Dunblane, was pretty helpful in
:14:20. > :14:23.helping me to think about the future and helping me to think about how I
:14:24. > :14:28.would respond to those incidents. To those moments when you ask why you
:14:29. > :14:32.only have one child. To those moments when you are at a dinner
:14:33. > :14:35.party and someone says," you used to know in Dunblane, do you know anyone
:14:36. > :14:55.who... ? " how do you answer that? I find it tricky because I find in
:14:56. > :15:00.social settings, if my out myself as a parent of a Dunblane child, then I
:15:01. > :15:04.feel responsible for perhaps having spoiled a social occasion or having
:15:05. > :15:13.made someone feel badly about my circumstances. But there are also
:15:14. > :15:22.occasions when you simply choose not to tell, you simply choose to keep
:15:23. > :15:26.that to yourself because... Particularly if you are talking to
:15:27. > :15:30.somebody you are not likely to meet again or not likely to be spending
:15:31. > :15:34.much time with, there is nothing to be gained by telling them who you
:15:35. > :15:40.are or what has happened to you. The hardest thing is when people that
:15:41. > :15:44.you know you will go on and have a bit of a relationship with, for
:15:45. > :15:48.example, new neighbours, new friends or colleagues, and you know at some
:15:49. > :15:53.point you will have to tell them and you desperately tried to think of
:15:54. > :15:59.Norway to make it all right then. -- you desperately try to think of a
:16:00. > :16:06.way to make it all right. The rationality of that is staggering
:16:07. > :16:12.but understandable! I cheat. I have asked people to pass on the
:16:13. > :16:17.information for me. In job circumstances, professional circles,
:16:18. > :16:24.I have asked people simply to pass on the information for me. And that
:16:25. > :16:29.smooth it over a bit and is easier for me. But of course, each year,
:16:30. > :16:36.there is an anniversary, how have you dealt with the anniversary is
:16:37. > :16:41.over the years? I am inclined to think that dates are artificial. For
:16:42. > :16:49.example, this year, the 13th of March occurs on a Sunday. It wasn't
:16:50. > :16:55.a Sunday, it was a school day. Actually, it is usually the day
:16:56. > :17:01.after, usually the 14th, 15th, 16th of March, where I begin to just lose
:17:02. > :17:10.the poise and self-control the self-discipline and field genuinely
:17:11. > :17:18.very sad. As a family, we tend to spend the day together. My husband
:17:19. > :17:23.always liked the candle. I don't know if you remember on the first
:17:24. > :17:28.anniversary of the shooting, people all over Dunblane lit candles and
:17:29. > :17:32.put them in their windows. It was so beautiful, such a simple gesture of
:17:33. > :17:38.support. Walking down to the cathedral I think, that night, it
:17:39. > :17:43.was enormously comforting, to see a light in nearly every window. Is
:17:44. > :17:51.there a special poignancy, the fact this is the 20th anniversary? For
:17:52. > :17:59.me, there is just one thing. I am not sure even my closest family have
:18:00. > :18:09.understood this. For me, it is just desperately important that they are
:18:10. > :18:14.not forgotten. It is just desperately, desperately important
:18:15. > :18:28.that they are remembered. And that... They don't become... A sort
:18:29. > :18:34.of comfortable part of the past. Of necessity, it is in the past. That
:18:35. > :18:41.is natural. But I would like Dunblane to be an uncomfortable
:18:42. > :18:46.past. I would like them to be remembered, I would like that
:18:47. > :18:55.incident to be remembered. I would like people to understand that... I
:18:56. > :19:05.think we have a responsibility to the living and I think the best I
:19:06. > :19:13.can do under half of Mair is to make sure the UK, Scotland, has the
:19:14. > :19:20.censorship to gun ownership. You said you did not want to come across
:19:21. > :19:25.as a sad woman. I am not. I have a very comfortable and happy life. I
:19:26. > :19:38.remarried. I have another daughter. How would you like Mhairie to be
:19:39. > :19:50.remembered? She was only five when she died. What makes you happy when
:19:51. > :20:00.you think of her. I am not sure I do feel happy when I think of Mhairi. A
:20:01. > :20:04.friend to be that the word bereaved comes from old English and it means
:20:05. > :20:12.to have something stolen from you. That really helped when my friend
:20:13. > :20:24.discuss that with me. That is how it feels. I think of her as something
:20:25. > :20:29.of great value. Something of great joy that has been stolen from me
:20:30. > :20:36.forever. I think that is how I feel about it. It is not really possible
:20:37. > :20:45.to look back at Mhairi and be happy because so much of what I enjoyed in
:20:46. > :20:49.the first five years of her life was that working progress, it was about
:20:50. > :20:51.becoming and it did not become, it did not progress. It is not really
:20:52. > :20:56.possible to be happy about her. Isabel Wilson speaking
:20:57. > :20:58.to Jackie Bird there. And the documentary Dunblane:
:20:59. > :21:01.Our Story is on BBC One Scotland Joining me now are Stephen
:21:02. > :21:07.Naysmith from 'The Herald' and the journalist and
:21:08. > :21:19.broadcaster Liz Leonard. When you hear the testimony from
:21:20. > :21:26.Isobel, you think two decades on, those memories still so painful.
:21:27. > :21:30.What are your memories of that? It was funny watching the tape, I
:21:31. > :21:34.remember watching, I was sitting at home and I remember seeing the
:21:35. > :21:39.flowers. It was interesting seeing those flowers again. I don't know if
:21:40. > :21:49.that is when it started because I think a year later Princess down
:21:50. > :21:57.died. -- Diana. It was very moving to see the flowers. Isobel seemed
:21:58. > :22:01.completely remarkable. I don't think she need fear that Dunblane will
:22:02. > :22:08.ever be forgotten. It was a seminal moment in the country are certainly
:22:09. > :22:13.in my lifetime, we had never experienced anything like that. That
:22:14. > :22:22.was her concern, that those children were not forgotten. But that memory
:22:23. > :22:28.still remains quite vivid. I don't think it will easily be forgotten.
:22:29. > :22:32.There was a sense at the time of a loss of innocence. I remember at the
:22:33. > :22:35.time, people feeling this was not the type of thing that happened in
:22:36. > :22:40.Scotland. You heard about these things happening in America and
:22:41. > :22:44.suddenly it was upon us. I don't think people will forget it very
:22:45. > :22:52.easily. That was a remarkable interview. Very poignant, the way
:22:53. > :22:58.she was talking about that loss of potential which is what made it so
:22:59. > :23:03.powerful. Another thing she was concerned about is the possible
:23:04. > :23:07.relaxation of gun laws, that we are becoming possibly desensitised to
:23:08. > :23:12.some of these issues and she thinks we have to be very aware of that. I
:23:13. > :23:17.think we do need to be aware of it. I don't think in the UK we are
:23:18. > :23:21.becoming desensitised to it, even though we obviously see what is
:23:22. > :23:27.happening in other parts of the world, so very quickly. I think
:23:28. > :23:34.anybody in the UK who sees... That loss of innocence Stephen was
:23:35. > :23:38.talking about, and we think of some similar circumstances in America, in
:23:39. > :23:46.schools, and it has been Obama's desire to make that his priority and
:23:47. > :23:52.he hasn't managed it. And yet, the death rate in the US by firearms is
:23:53. > :23:57.30 times higher than the UK and I think that is something to be proud
:23:58. > :24:01.of. I think the snowdrop campaign was very effective, handguns were
:24:02. > :24:05.banned. It is not just had an impact on the availability of guns for
:24:06. > :24:14.people who, for whatever reason might be moved to even contemplate
:24:15. > :24:21.something like that,. It is so essential that remains in place. And
:24:22. > :24:27.that we are aware that guns should not be widely available. To Want
:24:28. > :24:35.pick up on another issue, the Scottish Government plans for public
:24:36. > :24:43.sector for a named person appointed to look after. This has been going
:24:44. > :24:54.on at the supreme court. Let's hear from two Dundee mothers opposed to
:24:55. > :24:58.this. Completely against human life. All of this workload being put on
:24:59. > :25:05.people. I am quite angry that this is going to be forced on me, whether
:25:06. > :25:09.I want it or not. I don't want my child's sensitive medical data
:25:10. > :25:14.shared with the teacher. I think you two are broadly in favour of this?
:25:15. > :25:19.What are your concerns? Parents feeling they are being undermined
:25:20. > :25:21.perhaps? I don't think they are being undermined, I think people are
:25:22. > :25:28.being quite misled about this policy. The concerns being raised by
:25:29. > :25:33.it are wildly out of proportion. This policy has been backed by
:25:34. > :25:38.Scottish secondary teachers's association. Half a dozen children
:25:39. > :25:46.charities in Scotland. It is supported by the health and social
:25:47. > :26:02.care are lions. It is not a controversial policy. There is a lot
:26:03. > :26:08.of scaremongering about it. The invitations regards to the rights of
:26:09. > :26:11.family life. They have said there will be no intrusion into family
:26:12. > :26:16.life and I think there is a lot of misinformation going on. Do you
:26:17. > :26:21.understand parents's concerns, some parents might be religious and some
:26:22. > :26:24.might be secular and there might be different ways of deciding how to
:26:25. > :26:32.bring up a child. I think that is a valid point. This named person, I
:26:33. > :26:36.think it is important they do not affect that relationship. People are
:26:37. > :26:40.being home-schooled now because they don't want a certain curriculum to
:26:41. > :26:46.be followed. That does not mean to say though, that curriculum isn't
:26:47. > :26:49.checked and monitors. It is interesting, it is 20 years since
:26:50. > :26:59.Dunblane, it is 30 years since Esther runs in founded child line
:27:00. > :27:05.this year. In a way, Childline was done as a response because there
:27:06. > :27:09.were not avenues children could turn to when they felt the need to speak
:27:10. > :27:15.to someone outside the family. The me, having a named person, they are
:27:16. > :27:19.all responsible professionals. I understand parents's concerns but I
:27:20. > :27:25.think when you read the intention behind the bill, and the various
:27:26. > :27:29.safeguards and the experts to put it together, I think this makes sense
:27:30. > :27:35.and hopefully, it will guard against the likes of another baby P because
:27:36. > :27:42.they will have some constant in their lives. A lot of people talking
:27:43. > :27:46.about this, opposed to it and some people saying, maybe resources are
:27:47. > :27:54.spread too thinly. The named person might have too many children to look
:27:55. > :27:59.after. There is a real issue there, what use is the named person if it
:28:00. > :28:05.is ahead teacher of a school of hundreds of children? --
:28:06. > :28:10.headteacher. That is not really what the debate has focused around. It
:28:11. > :28:17.hasn't focused around the real questions they may be. For example,
:28:18. > :28:21.the campaign has been talking about the cost of it and they have lumped
:28:22. > :28:24.together at the cost of all the health visitors in Scotland and the
:28:25. > :28:32.child protection system and said that is the cost. What it is not.
:28:33. > :28:40.You would have to pay for child protection systems and health
:28:41. > :28:42.visitors. Thank you Bury for joining me.
:28:43. > :28:47.We'll be back with you tomorow night at the usual time,