:00:08. > :00:14.In five weeks' time, Scotland goes to the polls. It is already shaping
:00:15. > :00:17.up to be the tax and spend election. The Scottish parliament will have by
:00:18. > :00:23.this time next year the ability to set income tax rates and bands.
:00:24. > :00:27.Tonight our studio will have the chance to grill the six main parties
:00:28. > :00:31.about how they will use these new powers. For Labour we have Iain
:00:32. > :00:37.Gray. Maggie Chapman is here for the Greens. Alex Cole-Hamilton for the
:00:38. > :00:42.Liberal Democrats. For the SNP, John Swinney. Murdo Fraser is here for
:00:43. > :01:11.the Conservatives and from Ukip, David Coburn.
:01:12. > :01:18.Hello and welcome. Let's get cracking with our first question,
:01:19. > :01:22.which comes from Brian Ellison. What would you like to ask the panel?
:01:23. > :01:27.The UK government and the current taxation system encourages companies
:01:28. > :01:33.and wealthy individuals to stash their money in offshore tax havens,
:01:34. > :01:36.which is why an increasing number of working taxpaying families are
:01:37. > :01:42.resorting to food banks to make ends meet. Given the recent revelations
:01:43. > :01:47.from the Panama Papers, how would your party addressed this growing
:01:48. > :01:52.inequality and bring about the tax Justice revolution that so many are
:01:53. > :01:55.calling for? OK, couldn't be more timely, the
:01:56. > :02:02.Panama Papers, the huge leak of documents has lifted the lid on how
:02:03. > :02:09.individuals use tax havens to hide their wealth. John Swinney, what
:02:10. > :02:13.with the SNP do to address the growing inequality in Scotland? To
:02:14. > :02:18.answer the question directly, in the last parliament we had to set up a
:02:19. > :02:22.new tax regime, tax powers were devolved to the Scottish parliament
:02:23. > :02:26.and we had to put in place arrangements to collect that tax and
:02:27. > :02:29.one of the things I put into legislation is a general
:02:30. > :02:36.anti-avoidance rule in relation to taxation. I said to parliament that
:02:37. > :02:42.I wanted to establish the highest standard that would attack tax
:02:43. > :02:45.avoidance, which would be hoping to stop it. I said to my colleagues in
:02:46. > :02:48.other parties that I would before the proposal and if they felt it
:02:49. > :02:53.could be made stronger I would accept amendments. The Parliament
:02:54. > :02:57.has passed what has been seen internationally as one of the
:02:58. > :03:04.strongest and toughest sets of tax instruments to tackle tax avoidance.
:03:05. > :03:09.And the heart of that is a taste of what is called artificiality, which
:03:10. > :03:12.if you turn it into common language, if you're at it in your tax
:03:13. > :03:17.arrangements, then our rule will see through it and we will pursue people
:03:18. > :03:20.for that. We have already established in the parliament the
:03:21. > :03:24.strongest approach we possibly can to tax avoidance and making sure
:03:25. > :03:26.that people pay their tax but it will run through all of the
:03:27. > :03:32.arrangements we put in place to ensure that tax collection, the kind
:03:33. > :03:38.of all fullness we have heard from the Panama revelations over the last
:03:39. > :03:43.couple of days cannot in any way be seen as accessible or tolerable
:03:44. > :03:47.within the tax system we have -- awfulness. Murdo Fraser, do you
:03:48. > :03:51.think that the Conservative government in Westminster has done
:03:52. > :03:54.enough to tighten up on this? I think there is always more that
:03:55. > :03:58.governments can do but this government has done more than any
:03:59. > :04:01.previous government in terms of crackdown on tax evasion and
:04:02. > :04:05.avoidance. David Cameron has made it a personal crusade to go to
:04:06. > :04:09.otherworldly this to say, come with us and work. You have to work on an
:04:10. > :04:14.international basis if you're going to crackdown on this happening. You
:04:15. > :04:19.can't do it alone, you need cooperation and treaties. To address
:04:20. > :04:24.Diana's point directly, the reform we have seen since 2010, since David
:04:25. > :04:30.Cameron was elected in terms of tax, is to help those at the lowest end,
:04:31. > :04:35.doubling the threshold at which you start paying tax. In 2010 it was
:04:36. > :04:42.?6,000 and it is going up to nearly ?12,000. What that has done, it
:04:43. > :04:46.means that there are nearly 250,000 Scots who pay no tax at all now. Low
:04:47. > :04:51.paid Scots have been lifted out of tax altogether. That has been the
:04:52. > :04:53.most significant reform under a Conservative foreign minister,
:04:54. > :04:57.showing that those at the bottom are getting the help they need from a
:04:58. > :05:02.Conservative government. David Cockburn, what would Ukip do to try
:05:03. > :05:05.and reduce the gap in wealth inequality? We need to bring up
:05:06. > :05:10.Europe and getting out of the European Union might help.
:05:11. > :05:17.Luxembourg... This is the Scottish election. That is important. Let's
:05:18. > :05:20.talk about the new powers coming to Scotland. We have to tighten up
:05:21. > :05:24.across Europe and the European Union has encouraged a lot of big
:05:25. > :05:28.corporations paying their tax whether they want to, which has been
:05:29. > :05:31.disastrous. It means that some companies who make a lot of money in
:05:32. > :05:36.this country are paying very little tax. We need to make sure that the
:05:37. > :05:42.laws fit it and that is something we have to tighten up on. Let me bring
:05:43. > :05:46.in Alen Halilovic, in the audience, who is a carer and I believe you
:05:47. > :05:52.have a point about care inequality. How can it be fair to tax low paid
:05:53. > :05:56.workers in Scotland more than the rest of the UK?
:05:57. > :05:59.The key debate in this election is how we stop austerity cuts and
:06:00. > :06:03.Labour would like to use the powers of the Scottish Parliament to stop
:06:04. > :06:11.those cuts. You are proposing an extra penny? We have suggested a tax
:06:12. > :06:16.plan which means nobody earning less than ?20,000 would pay a penny more
:06:17. > :06:18.tax than they do today and if you look at our replacement for the
:06:19. > :06:24.council tax, they would be several hundred pounds better off in the
:06:25. > :06:27.year. The question from Diana was about those at the top end, those
:06:28. > :06:32.who have the most and I think the biggest thing we have to do is to
:06:33. > :06:38.refuse to accept the idea that if you are rich, somehow paying tax is
:06:39. > :06:41.an option. John talked about the tax avoidance measures in the Scottish
:06:42. > :06:46.Parliament. We supported them and they are stronger than in the UK.
:06:47. > :06:52.What I don't understand, we have suggested that the top 1% in
:06:53. > :06:59.Scotland earning over ?150,000 should pay more, they should pay a
:07:00. > :07:02.50p tax rate. John has opposed it because, he says, they wouldn't like
:07:03. > :07:06.it and they wouldn't pay it. The first thing we have to do is to stop
:07:07. > :07:12.accepting this idea that if you have a lot of money, somehow paying your
:07:13. > :07:18.tax is an option. We would introduce tax measures which would make sure
:07:19. > :07:22.that those at the top would pay more, and that is the way we can
:07:23. > :07:27.stop the austerity cuts, the price of which is being paid every day by
:07:28. > :07:31.those at the bottom. We will move on in a moment to talk about the top
:07:32. > :07:36.rate of tax but on the extra penny on the basic rate, Alex
:07:37. > :07:43.Cole-Hamilton, that is something that the Lib Dems are proposing, is
:07:44. > :07:48.it fair? It doesn't sound like a tax Justice revolution, as Diana was
:07:49. > :07:52.suggesting. Going back to that revolution, and it is great to hear
:07:53. > :07:57.a sinner repenting on the issue of the tax threshold because this is a
:07:58. > :08:01.policy... The Liberal Democrats had to fight to get the Tories to adopt
:08:02. > :08:06.it and I'm glad we did, doing more to address poverty than in 13 years
:08:07. > :08:12.of Labour government. It gives us a space where putting eight penny on
:08:13. > :08:19.income tax on all bands in Scotland is more progressive than it would be
:08:20. > :08:22.-- a penny. If you earn ?15,000, by any stretch, that isn't even a
:08:23. > :08:28.median income, it is low, you would benefit to the tune of ?825 a year
:08:29. > :08:33.better off as a result of the tax threshold. Putting an increase of 1p
:08:34. > :08:42.on all bands Woods the youth giving ?25 of that -- would see you giving
:08:43. > :08:46.?25. We want to invest that in a revolution in education which is the
:08:47. > :08:52.way out of inequality in our society. We have a real education
:08:53. > :08:57.crisis. The OECD said that Scotland used to be held up as a world leader
:08:58. > :09:00.in terms of delivery of education but we are slipping down the league
:09:01. > :09:04.tables and we have done so every year. They say that there is a
:09:05. > :09:09.relative and absolute indicator showing that when we were at the
:09:10. > :09:14.top, we are now somewhere around average and that is not acceptable.
:09:15. > :09:20.This is a very interesting account of the OECD. Let me finish, I'm
:09:21. > :09:25.going to tell you what we will do, three things without money. That
:09:26. > :09:29.?470 million transformational investment in education. We want to
:09:30. > :09:34.go early, we want to make sure that the payment cap doesn't start by
:09:35. > :09:39.investing in nurseries, we want a pupil premium for the most deprived
:09:40. > :09:44.children so that the money follows them into their places of education
:09:45. > :09:48.and finally, because this is iniquitous in the hands of the SNP,
:09:49. > :09:53.we will reverse the loss of 152,000 further education college places. I
:09:54. > :09:59.would like to bring in Maggie Chapman here. I need to hear from
:10:00. > :10:04.Maggie Chapman. Obviously the Green party are the only party promising
:10:05. > :10:09.to cut income tax for people earning under ?26,500. Are you having to
:10:10. > :10:13.hammer the rich to do that? I think that the Scottish Greens are the
:10:14. > :10:17.only ones here who have truly radical and transformative tax
:10:18. > :10:22.proposals. Our package of proposals are designed to do exactly as you
:10:23. > :10:27.say, not only raising money to defend and improve the public
:10:28. > :10:30.services that we rely on everyday, but also tackling inequality. That
:10:31. > :10:36.has to be part of what we use tax to do. Scotland is a wealthy country
:10:37. > :10:41.and it is an obscenity that people are forced to using food banks and
:10:42. > :10:46.things like that when we know that we have the wealth to feed and house
:10:47. > :10:52.all of our people. To go to Alan's point about having to pay more tax
:10:53. > :10:57.for the lowest income earners, absolutely know, that isn't fair, it
:10:58. > :11:03.isn't progressive and that is why anybody earning under ?26,000 or
:11:04. > :11:10.less would pay less tax under the Scottish Greens's proposals. What do
:11:11. > :11:15.you make of that? People on Labour were on the TV
:11:16. > :11:21.talking about this ?100 rebate every night, trying to convince us, that
:11:22. > :11:31.it is counterbalancing it with the extra penny but was it a myth to
:11:32. > :11:34.start with? It was kicked into touch... You spent a long time,
:11:35. > :11:41.Iain, promising that there would be way ?100 rebate so that people would
:11:42. > :11:45.not be worse off and you have reversed it in the first week of the
:11:46. > :11:53.campaign. A terrible betrayal of the people. Let him answer that. I will
:11:54. > :11:57.tell you what the betrayal is, that is part of a proposal for this
:11:58. > :12:03.year's budget in which we suggested a 1p increase and the protection
:12:04. > :12:06.using the rebate. You know what the betrayal was? John Swinney and his
:12:07. > :12:12.colleagues voted it down and instead pushed through ?500 million of cuts
:12:13. > :12:17.to local communities. That's where the betrayal lies, the proposals we
:12:18. > :12:23.have for next year and the years after will ensure, as I said, Alan,
:12:24. > :12:27.that nobody earning less than ?20,000 will pay a penny more than
:12:28. > :12:36.they do today. And that's right. APPLAUSE
:12:37. > :12:41.People on low incomes have gone into the hands of George Osborne, you
:12:42. > :12:44.have accepted that he is the man who is protecting low income households
:12:45. > :12:48.and you want to put up taxes for these individuals. These people's
:12:49. > :12:51.incomes are under such enormous stress and you are putting them into
:12:52. > :13:00.the hands of no protection from George Osborne. I'm going to move
:13:01. > :13:05.on. If you talk over each other... If you talk over each other, nobody
:13:06. > :13:11.will hear anything. We want to move onto the next question. A 15 billion
:13:12. > :13:15.black hole, all of the other parties are bidding to get your vote,
:13:16. > :13:18.offering you bribes for your vote. Don't believe any of it, they are
:13:19. > :13:30.shuffling around deckchairs on the Titanic. They don't address the 15
:13:31. > :13:36.billion back hole. -- black hole. The SNP's land grab, that is where
:13:37. > :13:52.the money is going to come from. I am going to move on. Mugabe's land
:13:53. > :13:55.reform proposals are nothing... David Coburn, you have had your
:13:56. > :14:03.chance. Second question, I would like to take. What is your question
:14:04. > :14:11.for the politicians? Should the top rate of tax be raised to 50 p higher
:14:12. > :14:18.to supplement our policies. At the moment, the top rate of tax for
:14:19. > :14:24.people earning over ?150,000 is 45p. You support a 50p rate, what is to
:14:25. > :14:30.stop people moving to other parts of the UK to stop paying that upper
:14:31. > :14:35.rate? This suggestion that if we raise the top rate of tax, all these
:14:36. > :14:44.people will up sticks lock stock and barrel and moved to London... Nobody
:14:45. > :14:48.says all of them. Maybe 7%. I do not accept that argument. I have heard
:14:49. > :14:52.it for years from Tories. I'm surprised he it from the SNP. A year
:14:53. > :14:56.ago John Swinney supported the 50p tax rate and he does not now. I
:14:57. > :15:02.think the top 1% should pay more. And I tell you what we would use it
:15:03. > :15:07.for. We would use it for our fair start fund, funding which would
:15:08. > :15:09.close the attainment gap in our schools, and drive a better prospect
:15:10. > :15:25.for our children and grandchildren, but also
:15:26. > :15:28.better economic prospects for this country in the future. I think that
:15:29. > :15:30.is a worthwhile thing to do. I do not understand why John and Nicola
:15:31. > :15:34.Sturgeon supported it a year ago and now they do not. 20 countries in the
:15:35. > :15:38.OECD have a top rate higher than 45 p. It seems to work for them. That
:15:39. > :15:43.includes countries like Denmark and Finland who they say we should
:15:44. > :15:46.aspire to emulate. Let's start by making sure that those at the very
:15:47. > :15:55.top pay their fair share. APPLAUSE
:15:56. > :16:01.There seems to be a huge focus on the additional rate taxpayers.
:16:02. > :16:05.There is a view points to mention. Firstly, there are only 14,000
:16:06. > :16:10.people in the whole of Scotland that pay the additional rate of tax.
:16:11. > :16:17.17,000 is a figure that has been mentioned. But not a lots, you are
:16:18. > :16:22.right. Secondly, the Labour government introduced the additional
:16:23. > :16:28.rate in 2009-10, and the results of that was huge tax avoidance. People
:16:29. > :16:33.who are the chief executives of large corporations can control when
:16:34. > :16:40.they take their income. You think it would lead to tax avoidance? I think
:16:41. > :16:46.it would. The Green Party supports 60p tax rate. Surely people are even
:16:47. > :16:51.more likely to change their behaviour? It is a small number of
:16:52. > :16:55.people who would be affected on income over 150,000. The amount they
:16:56. > :17:01.contribute is quite large, if they take all their money away? Let's
:17:02. > :17:05.look at this. If somebody decides not to pay, or to leave Scotland
:17:06. > :17:09.because they do not want to take that high rate of tax, they do not
:17:10. > :17:14.take that job with them. But money remains in the Scottish economy.
:17:15. > :17:20.Wealth does not seep from the skin of rich people. It is therein our
:17:21. > :17:25.economy, it is created by all of us. In Aberdeen, for instance, if the
:17:26. > :17:31.principle of a university was to up sticks because he did not want to
:17:32. > :17:35.pay 60p in the pound on earnings over ?150,000, Aberdeen University
:17:36. > :17:39.is not going anywhere. That job would still exist in Scotland. Many
:17:40. > :17:43.people who can afford to pay a bit more tax are willing to do so
:17:44. > :17:47.because it is about providing public services that we all rely on and
:17:48. > :17:50.ensuring we tackle inequality. We know in a quality is tearing our
:17:51. > :18:05.country apart. We know just for those at the bottom of
:18:06. > :18:08.the scale, but inequality is bad for everyone and that is what our 60p
:18:09. > :18:11.rate is there to address. I would like to take a point from the man in
:18:12. > :18:14.the back row. There is a broad range of opinion about tax avoidance at
:18:15. > :18:17.the top level., delivered two particular points. One is about
:18:18. > :18:19.Murdo Fraser and his rather disingenuous statement that David
:18:20. > :18:24.Cameron is doing everything in his power. Can I ask him to tell David
:18:25. > :18:27.Cameron to close the doors on all the British protectorate so that
:18:28. > :18:34.money can come back to us. Can we keep to the upper rate of tax if you
:18:35. > :18:40.don't mind? I'm sorry, Shelley. The other thing you mentioned about
:18:41. > :18:45.people in education and attainment. I work in education. Those guys are
:18:46. > :18:49.busting their gut day in, day out. This is the holiday time. They
:18:50. > :18:53.should have two weeks holiday. I know they are all in there. They are
:18:54. > :18:58.punching above their weight. They are producing wonderful results with
:18:59. > :19:02.very, very little, and the political interference into how that tax money
:19:03. > :19:07.is spent is creating no end of difficulty. That is where you need
:19:08. > :19:12.to look at the solution. Where are the Lib Dems at the moment about
:19:13. > :19:16.increasing the operator tax? Just pay tribute to your colleagues, I
:19:17. > :19:22.think our education sector in Scotland is served by people who
:19:23. > :19:30.have providing and delivering milk -- miracles who are on their knees.
:19:31. > :19:36.We are not ideological opposed to making the wealthiest pay more, this
:19:37. > :19:47.has to be evidence -based. We are committed to increasing the top rate
:19:48. > :19:50.of tax to 46p... The SNP is already quoting evidence here. You have seen
:19:51. > :19:55.that evidence. Is that enough to make you think there would be
:19:56. > :20:08.flight? What happens with the tax policy we are proposing I would rule
:20:09. > :20:12.it out for this election because we will not have this bedding in
:20:13. > :20:17.evidence that we will see from our policy in action, but we need that
:20:18. > :20:23.investment. It is a gamble to assume we will definitely get money in from
:20:24. > :20:29.that. Let's go for the guaranteed ?475 million investment in nurseries
:20:30. > :20:33.and pupil premium and in reversing 152,000 college sector cuts. OK,
:20:34. > :20:37.John Swinney, you are worried people might change their behaviour and
:20:38. > :20:42.move their money and home if there was a 50p tax rate, but the evidence
:20:43. > :20:49.you have looked at, you have quoted the most conservative estimate, you
:20:50. > :20:53.could gain ?110 million more a year. Isn't it worth a shot? I think what
:20:54. > :20:55.has got to be borne in mind is at the heart of our proposals is a
:20:56. > :21:03.requirement on the people who are paying the higher rate of taxation,
:21:04. > :21:06.to pay more and that would be ?200 billion of additional revenue that
:21:07. > :21:11.would be generated to invest in public services as a consequence.
:21:12. > :21:15.You said nobody would pay more income tax and now you're saying it
:21:16. > :21:19.would raise ?1 billion and another billion from council tax. It cannot
:21:20. > :21:26.be the case that it means nobody pays more tax but it raises more
:21:27. > :21:37.money. It is a simple statement that as a consequence of the decisions we
:21:38. > :21:42.have taken, as a consequence on the decisions on tax, we will generate
:21:43. > :21:47.?2 billion more revenue to invest in public services. That comes from
:21:48. > :21:52.changing the higher rate of taxation, the thresholds on taxation
:21:53. > :21:56.for higher rate taxpayers. That is the proposals we are bringing
:21:57. > :22:00.forward. On the additional rate of taxation which has been raised, we
:22:01. > :22:05.have published analysis, we have been entirely open about this. If
:22:06. > :22:09.just 7% of additional rate taxpayers were to change their tax
:22:10. > :22:15.arrangements, and they were to pay no tax into the public finances of
:22:16. > :22:18.Scotland, we would lose up to ?30 million and raised nothing
:22:19. > :22:22.additional in taxation. Why'd you think they would want to pay a
:22:23. > :22:27.little bit more? Why did you think people might want to pay a little
:22:28. > :22:31.bit more to do their share? When you look at any aspect of taxation, you
:22:32. > :22:34.have to consider the behavioural impact of the decisions you take.
:22:35. > :22:38.That is part of the analysis government has to go through on a
:22:39. > :22:49.systematic basis. We have done that on the additional rate and what it
:22:50. > :22:51.says to us is there is a danger that if up to 7% of those additional rate
:22:52. > :22:54.taxpayers were to change their tax arrangements, we could actually lose
:22:55. > :22:58.money. As the finance minister, I have to be certain that we can raise
:22:59. > :23:02.the money, and allocate to the public expenditure and public
:23:03. > :23:06.services. I have no intention of short-changing our hospitals or our
:23:07. > :23:10.education system, as a consequence of the decisions we make. They must
:23:11. > :23:17.be soundly based in the evidence we have available to us. Let's hear
:23:18. > :23:21.from the man at the back. In this election, credibility and trust will
:23:22. > :23:25.be a big issue. Why should the Scottish voters trust the Liberal
:23:26. > :23:31.Democrats with tax policies, knowing that credibility and trust will be a
:23:32. > :23:39.key principle in the vote? It is at the heart of everything we stand
:23:40. > :23:42.for. Education is the key, it is a social leveller. As liberals we
:23:43. > :23:46.believe everyone has the right to make the most of their God-given
:23:47. > :23:53.skills. We need to invest in the early years, the attainment gap
:23:54. > :23:57.becomes so wide by the time they get to primary school. Having money
:23:58. > :24:01.follow them and having a guaranteed college place. David Coburn, would
:24:02. > :24:07.Ukip use any of the new powers coming to the Scottish Parliament to
:24:08. > :24:12.raise or cut taxes? No, we believe taxes should not be higher than any
:24:13. > :24:16.other part of the UK. To do so would be economic suicide for Scotland. No
:24:17. > :24:20.one will sit here and be plucked. They will go or they will move their
:24:21. > :24:26.domicile, and then you will have to raise taxes even further to pay for
:24:27. > :24:30.the whole that creates. It is a dog chasing its own tail. There is no
:24:31. > :24:41.sense in this whatsoever. We need to keep taxes the same as the rest of
:24:42. > :24:43.the UK. I don't see why ordinary Scottish working people should pay
:24:44. > :24:46.more for the privilege of living in Scotland. It is utterly ridiculous.
:24:47. > :24:49.I also believe it could be the end of the Scottish economy. People will
:24:50. > :24:53.not sit here, they will move. Murdo Fraser, you do not want to see an
:24:54. > :24:58.increase in the upper rate of tax. There is support, according to a
:24:59. > :25:05.poll, suggesting there is support for a 50p top rate of tax. RU out of
:25:06. > :25:09.line here? People are asked to you on to pay more tax yourself, based
:25:10. > :25:15.deliberate tend to say no. If they say should other people pay more
:25:16. > :25:19.tax, they say yes. I think John Swinney and I would tend to be in
:25:20. > :25:24.agreement. As the gentleman in the front said, something like only
:25:25. > :25:31.17,000 higher rate additional taxpayers in Scotland. Though 17,000
:25:32. > :25:35.contributed nearly 14% of the total tax. It does not take many of them
:25:36. > :25:42.to change their behaviour and we would lose money. There is a danger
:25:43. > :25:46.some of them would go. Everybody on the side to the right of me on this
:25:47. > :25:50.panel wants to take more money out of the pockets of hard-working
:25:51. > :25:56.Scots. I think that sends a very bad signal about Scotland as a place to
:25:57. > :26:01.live, work and bring up a family. John Swinney says, for example, he
:26:02. > :26:05.wants to cut Air Passenger Duty. We think there is money to be found for
:26:06. > :26:09.keeping taxes low in Scotland. We think they should be targeted at
:26:10. > :26:19.people who are middle earners. Police officers who are caught -- a
:26:20. > :26:24.third of these offices are caught by the 40p tax rate, a quarter of
:26:25. > :26:30.teachers, a 10th of nurses. Give the money to the hard working people. I
:26:31. > :26:40.would like to bring in Stephen Hay who is head of tax for Scotland for
:26:41. > :26:44.the accounting firm RSM. What do you make of the discussion we have
:26:45. > :26:49.heard? It is an interesting debate. We have talked about the flight of
:26:50. > :26:56.people earning the higher rate. People can leave the UK, that is
:26:57. > :26:59.true for a 5% increase, but it are unlikely I think. Most of those
:27:00. > :27:06.people could take the dividend instead of taking an increase their
:27:07. > :27:13.salary. You do not have to the UK. Those who can, will. The 50p tax
:27:14. > :27:17.rate will probably bring in something in the region of ?120
:27:18. > :27:22.million to the country. That is not the issue. I think the issue goes
:27:23. > :27:27.further down. Where are we going to get the tax that we need? It will
:27:28. > :27:33.not be from a 50p tax rate. Where will it be from in your view? We
:27:34. > :27:39.have not discussed thresholds at all in rate bands. The Greens have made
:27:40. > :27:43.that proposal. You must look at the different rate bands and applying
:27:44. > :27:49.different rates of tax, because that will be the fairer way, I think. If
:27:50. > :27:54.you look at the OECD, there is something like 34 countries and
:27:55. > :27:58.almost all of them have four or more bands. We have three and I think it
:27:59. > :28:03.is very rigid and I think we need to move out of that and go into a
:28:04. > :28:08.three, four or five band country for Scotland, to make it fairer, that
:28:09. > :28:12.those who have got the cash can pay a bit more, including the 50p tax.
:28:13. > :28:21.APPLAUSE Any more thoughts from the audience?
:28:22. > :28:25.The majority of the country do not earn that sort of money, what tax
:28:26. > :28:31.are we going to pay and how will it affect us on our level? That is the
:28:32. > :28:35.absolute commitment we are giving in this election. For basic rate
:28:36. > :28:42.taxpayers, we will not increase the rate of taxation unlike the Labour
:28:43. > :28:46.Party. This gentleman has asked for clarity and I am giving him absolute
:28:47. > :28:50.clarity that the SNP will guarantee the basic rate of income tax will
:28:51. > :28:55.not rise during the course of the next Parliament, if we are lucky
:28:56. > :28:59.enough to be the government collected an 5th of May. You and I
:29:00. > :29:06.both sat on the Smith Commission together, talking about increasing
:29:07. > :29:11.tax and decreasing tax and I don't understand why you're not prepared
:29:12. > :29:15.to use that. To answer your question, under the Scottish Greens
:29:16. > :29:21.proposals, if you went 26,000 ?500 a year, you will pay less tax on that,
:29:22. > :29:30.because we are going to you reduce the lowest band by 2% so the 20%
:29:31. > :29:34.comes down to 18% -- 20 ?6,500. Half of income tax earners in Scotland
:29:35. > :29:38.will pay less tax under the Scottish Greens proposals.
:29:39. > :29:48.It sends out a message that Scotland is closed for business. You will get
:29:49. > :29:53.less of a tax take. It is a dog chasing its tail. The next question,
:29:54. > :30:00.thank you, which is from Russell, who is the director of the think
:30:01. > :30:04.tank, IPPR Scotland. Our analysis shows that the largest
:30:05. > :30:08.tax rises on offer from the political parties so far will be
:30:09. > :30:12.dwarfed by the public spending and benefits cuts coming to Scotland
:30:13. > :30:15.over the coming years. Head of the election, will you outline where the
:30:16. > :30:21.axe will fall, and equally which cuts your party will support. --
:30:22. > :30:30.head of the election. Where will the axe fall? For us, the
:30:31. > :30:34.election is a about using the new powers we have, that Maggie spoke
:30:35. > :30:39.about, that she and I and John sat on the Smith Commission and decided
:30:40. > :30:42.to use them to stop the austerity cuts and to allow us to start
:30:43. > :30:49.investing again in services, education and local services. Our
:30:50. > :30:54.calculation is that our tax plan, in the round, including raising money
:30:55. > :30:58.from the 50p tax rate and I thought it was interesting that an expert
:30:59. > :31:05.suggested I would raise ?120 million, which is more than we have
:31:06. > :31:12.estimated. We have been less optimistic about it but we can give
:31:13. > :31:15.a prediction that the education budget will grow year-on-year, the
:31:16. > :31:20.health service but it will be protected and we can begin to invest
:31:21. > :31:26.in those services which we have seen hit so badly by austerity cuts. The
:31:27. > :31:31.people who have paid the price of those cuts over the last three
:31:32. > :31:34.years. Russell's point in their analysis is that even the tax
:31:35. > :31:38.increases you are suggesting is not going to be enough, that you will
:31:39. > :31:43.have to make cuts over the next few years. Our calculation is that the
:31:44. > :31:48.tax plan will allow us to spend some ?3 billion more over the next few
:31:49. > :31:53.years than four example the SNP's plans and we believe that will allow
:31:54. > :31:57.us to protect those services and at the heart of that, education budgets
:31:58. > :32:02.because therein lies the future of our country. OK, Murdo Fraser, the
:32:03. > :32:06.Scottish Conservatives have said that they will pitch free
:32:07. > :32:11.prescriptions, free to wish on fees, is that going to be enough or is the
:32:12. > :32:14.axe going to have to fall elsewhere? There is another proposal. We
:32:15. > :32:21.recognise that there are difficult decisions. We would not scrap air
:32:22. > :32:25.passenger duty because we don't think that the industry deserves a
:32:26. > :32:32.tax break when there are public sector cuts. We would support an
:32:33. > :32:38.increase on council tax, not on bands E and F, but he and H, the
:32:39. > :32:42.largest properties, allowing tax to go up 3% a year because we think
:32:43. > :32:46.that a nine-year council tax freeze has had its day and it's time for
:32:47. > :32:50.local governments to get more money. We will say that those with the
:32:51. > :32:53.broadest shoulders should make more contribution. It is a disgrace that
:32:54. > :32:59.if you come from a disadvantaged background you are half as likely to
:33:00. > :33:05.go to Scottish university as if -- to go to university compared to a
:33:06. > :33:09.viewer in England. The reason is that they have much better funded
:33:10. > :33:15.bursaries in England and we think the better way to deal with this is
:33:16. > :33:22.to introduce a graduate contribution, ?6,000 from graduates.
:33:23. > :33:25.By doing that, we can support disadvantaged students from the
:33:26. > :33:29.poorest backgrounds who are being failed by the system but that is a
:33:30. > :33:34.difficult choice to make, some people don't bike that idea and feel
:33:35. > :33:39.that people should make that contribution -- don't like that
:33:40. > :33:43.idea. We think that those who are the most disadvantaged should get
:33:44. > :33:49.the foothold that those in England have that we don't have in Scotland.
:33:50. > :33:52.To hear the Conservatives talking about the broadest shoulders
:33:53. > :33:57.carrying the country when Ruth Davidson said that George Osborne's
:33:58. > :34:09.budget was the right thing to do, the increasing of the top rate
:34:10. > :34:17.bands, thresholds, the tax cuts... We have improved the UK economy. One
:34:18. > :34:26.at a time. Ruth Davidson said that was exactly the right thing to do.
:34:27. > :34:33.You should be chained. -- shamed. There may be a big hole in the
:34:34. > :34:38.finances over the next few years? Do you take issue with their analysis?
:34:39. > :34:43.There are some difficult decisions to take and we are taking that
:34:44. > :34:49.decision by increasing income tax. It might not be popular with some
:34:50. > :34:54.people but it is the thing to do. Some glaziers in Alaska have moved
:34:55. > :35:01.further and faster to deal with austerity than the SNP have done in
:35:02. > :35:08.this Parliament. Now we are to believe that there is some magic way
:35:09. > :35:13.to get ?2 billion of unaccounted for money to fill the gap. John has done
:35:14. > :35:18.some fancy footwork of avoiding where the money is coming from. The
:35:19. > :35:21.penny on income tax will pay for ?2.5 billion worth of spending but
:35:22. > :35:26.he says we won't have to put up spending at all, so where is the
:35:27. > :35:31.money coming from, John? A combination of the decision of the
:35:32. > :35:34.recommendation of the SNP government that we will not increase the
:35:35. > :35:41.threshold on higher rate taxpayers as is proposed by the UK government.
:35:42. > :35:48.Wait a second, let me answer. Also by the changes that we are making in
:35:49. > :35:50.council tax that will enable us to invest ?750 million of additional
:35:51. > :35:57.money in education to support the attainment of young people and the
:35:58. > :36:01.school system within Scotland. What the wider proposals of the SNP
:36:02. > :36:05.government have been about over the last few years is about ensuring we
:36:06. > :36:09.will protect public services. Allen made a comment about the actions we
:36:10. > :36:15.have made the point about protecting people, went the Lib Dems were
:36:16. > :36:24.voting to axe welfare expenditure and I was picking up the pieces to
:36:25. > :36:28.support the Scottish welfare system. Assistance for individuals when
:36:29. > :36:32.their council tax was cut, the council tax benefit was cut by the
:36:33. > :36:39.Lib Dems. There are difficult decisions ahead, where would the axe
:36:40. > :36:43.fall? Are you going to be honest with the voters about what's going
:36:44. > :36:46.to happen over the next few years? Over the last nine years, unlike
:36:47. > :36:50.anybody else, I have had to live within my means, I have set a budget
:36:51. > :36:54.which has set out how we would support public expenditure which has
:36:55. > :36:59.given a real terms increase for the health service, an increase in the
:37:00. > :37:04.future and we have said we will guarantee the police budget, that it
:37:05. > :37:09.would rise in real terms and I have set out the commitments on
:37:10. > :37:14.education, ?750 million invested directly in education support. These
:37:15. > :37:17.are common than is that people can expect priorities from the SNP
:37:18. > :37:22.government, investing in public services within Scotland. I would
:37:23. > :37:25.like to take a couple of points from the audience.
:37:26. > :37:31.The problem we have in this country is that we are living off the money
:37:32. > :37:35.we get from George Osborne and the sooner we get independent and raise
:37:36. > :37:37.our own funds the better, we will eradicate the problems we have with
:37:38. > :37:43.poverty. And with the red tie?
:37:44. > :37:49.Over the next five years, the grant coming from London to Scotland is
:37:50. > :37:53.going to be squeezed, very hard. Can you go on attracting large parts of
:37:54. > :37:59.the public spending such as the health service and schools?
:38:00. > :38:05.David Coburn? We wouldn't spend a lot of money, number one, an
:38:06. > :38:09.enormous amount on the ludicrous and authoritarian named person act,
:38:10. > :38:12.which is not only the most illiberal piece of legislation I have ever
:38:13. > :38:20.heard, it is very expensive. That isn't going to save a lot, is it?
:38:21. > :38:25.Townhall fat cats in Glasgow, over ?150,000 a year, and many earning
:38:26. > :38:29.over 100,000. We would cut bureaucracy in the NHS and make sure
:38:30. > :38:37.it is targeted towards the front end of the operation. We would ditch the
:38:38. > :38:41.?55 billion -- 50 ?5 million a day we are spending, squandering come on
:38:42. > :38:45.the EU. We would repatriate it to the country. We will not be paying
:38:46. > :38:51.for EU students studying in Scotland. That is just a starter,
:38:52. > :38:55.the rest of these people, as I have said, they are bidding for your vote
:38:56. > :39:01.on imaginary promises and they will never be able to fulfil them. It is
:39:02. > :39:05.all nonsense. The point the gentleman made about the key being
:39:06. > :39:13.reformed. If you look at what we did in the budget proposals this year,
:39:14. > :39:17.we have invested in social care integration so that services can
:39:18. > :39:22.deliver the needs of individuals. We have invested the money to create a
:39:23. > :39:26.more sustainable service. I accept that sometimes you have to invest to
:39:27. > :39:36.create more effective services that meet the needs of individuals. And
:39:37. > :39:39.that is precisely what we have done. We are investing in creating the
:39:40. > :39:42.integrated health and social care system which will make it a more
:39:43. > :39:46.sustainable service in the long term. It's interesting, if you look
:39:47. > :39:52.at what George Osborne has done under his ideological austerity
:39:53. > :39:56.regime, we have seen the privatisation of the NHS in England.
:39:57. > :40:02.We know that he has announced plans to privatise every school in
:40:03. > :40:07.England. Nonsense. We don't want Scotland to go in that direction.
:40:08. > :40:11.What we want is that we use our collective wealth to find the
:40:12. > :40:16.services that we all rely on every single day, whether it is health,
:40:17. > :40:20.whether it is education, they are the things that everybody, every
:40:21. > :40:24.single one of us uses or benefits from and that is what our government
:40:25. > :40:30.in Scotland should be doing for the people of Scotland. And the 50
:40:31. > :40:35.billion black Cole, what will you do about that? I haven't heard an
:40:36. > :40:38.answer to my question, which parts of the budget are going to be
:40:39. > :40:43.protected and which bits are going to have to be cut even more deeply
:40:44. > :40:49.to allow them to be protected? Let's see if it comes out in the
:40:50. > :40:57.discussion. The next question is from Catherine McNeil.
:40:58. > :41:00.I would like to ask the panel what a true form of local taxation would
:41:01. > :41:09.look like? David Coburn? At the moment I think
:41:10. > :41:13.a lot of them have started looking towards some kind of local taxation,
:41:14. > :41:19.income taxation, based on the value of your property. I don't think you
:41:20. > :41:23.should be punishing for aspiring to better and if that is their idea of
:41:24. > :41:29.the future, if that is progressive, they use the word all the time, they
:41:30. > :41:33.abuse it. What do you think is fair? I think we need the system we have
:41:34. > :41:38.at the moment, we have to try and work with it. I don't think people
:41:39. > :41:43.object greatly to the system we have now. They object to not getting
:41:44. > :41:48.value for money. I live in Fife and I have more bins than I know what to
:41:49. > :41:54.do with and I still don't get my garbage taken away. Do you feel that
:41:55. > :41:59.people think it is fair that the valuation is 25 years out of date?
:42:00. > :42:03.No, this will have to be looked into again but they are using it as a
:42:04. > :42:09.milk cow to rob people again. If you have a nice garden or a nice bit of
:42:10. > :42:13.extra land, they want to punish you for having it. There has to be an
:42:14. > :42:17.end to this nonsense about punishing people for doing well or trying to
:42:18. > :42:20.do well. I would like to see improvement of the services they
:42:21. > :42:30.have, cutting down on the Townhall fat cats. People in Glasgow City
:42:31. > :42:36.Council, ?150,000, outrageous. Why don't we deal with that? And the
:42:37. > :42:44.tramline, nobody uses it, a total waste of money. Iain Gray, what do
:42:45. > :42:48.you think is a truly fair form of local taxation? We have laid out in
:42:49. > :42:53.some detail the proposal for our changes to local taxation, and my
:42:54. > :43:00.view, and I think that Murdo made a similar point, the SNP have broken
:43:01. > :43:04.local taxation and I believe what we are proposing is fairer because it
:43:05. > :43:09.is a property tax, at its core, but based on current values, not those
:43:10. > :43:14.from 1991, leaving nearly 60% of houses in the wrong band. It would
:43:15. > :43:21.raise the same amount of money that the council tax now but four out of
:43:22. > :43:25.five households would pay less, so it is more progressive and it would
:43:26. > :43:29.allow local authorities, if they wished, to use the land value tax on
:43:30. > :43:38.vacant land because that is a form of property which currently escapes
:43:39. > :43:43.taxation. And finally, within limits, we would return to local
:43:44. > :43:46.authorities, local government, local communities and their elected
:43:47. > :43:54.representatives the power to decide the level at which local taxation
:43:55. > :43:58.should be set. Because look, this election is about a much more
:43:59. > :44:03.powerful Scottish Parliament, but power is worthless unless you're
:44:04. > :44:06.willing to give it away to the people is as close as possible to
:44:07. > :44:12.where it can actually create benefits and that means ending nine
:44:13. > :44:19.years of centralisation and factoring of local government.
:44:20. > :44:28.Maggie Chapman. Actually, the Scottish Greens want to scrap the
:44:29. > :44:32.council tax. It is outdated and regressive. We should not be
:44:33. > :44:38.tinkering around the edges with it. We need something radically
:44:39. > :44:43.different. We know that council tax which is based on values 25 years
:44:44. > :44:47.old, nobody's house should be taxed on a valuation system that is a
:44:48. > :44:55.quarter of a century out of date, but we also know that more than half
:44:56. > :45:00.of all homes or in the wrong tax bands. Not only that, it is not even
:45:01. > :45:07.a local tax. We have a situation in Scotland were less than 20% of all
:45:08. > :45:14.tax spent in a local authority area is raised by that area. That is not
:45:15. > :45:17.right. We have one of the most centralised tax systems in Europe
:45:18. > :45:24.and that is a legacy from Westminster. What we want to make
:45:25. > :45:27.sure is to give power back to local people, to communities, to decide
:45:28. > :45:30.what rates their residential properties should be set at. Then
:45:31. > :45:35.they can make a judgment about what services they need. It will give
:45:36. > :45:41.flexibility across Scotland. One side does not fit all. We need local
:45:42. > :45:45.control back in our system. We need to give people the power to choose
:45:46. > :45:53.what they want and what they want to prioritise in their area. It is more
:45:54. > :45:59.of a property tax and as a result of this, year-on-year, we will
:46:00. > :46:02.re-evaluate this. If my neighbour chooses to install a ground source
:46:03. > :46:08.heat pump or installation, something you would be keen for us to do, we
:46:09. > :46:12.will pay more council tax as a result and we will re-evaluate it.
:46:13. > :46:17.We will scrap the council tax so it is not council tax. We have not
:46:18. > :46:20.moved away from the Scottish Greens policy of a land finally taxation
:46:21. > :46:25.but you cannot implement something like that overnight. Our residential
:46:26. > :46:30.policy taxes a phased thing and it is the first step on the way to land
:46:31. > :46:35.value taxation. We cannot be in a situation where we overturn a tax
:46:36. > :46:41.system. That will create too many winners and far too many losers in
:46:42. > :46:44.our current system. We do not have an up-to-date land register. We do
:46:45. > :46:47.not even know who owns all of Scotland's land, no matter what
:46:48. > :46:51.value it is, and that will take a while to do that. Once we have got
:46:52. > :46:55.that, we can have an annual reassessment file you and tax things
:46:56. > :47:03.fairly from there. You want to take all the money from people yet again.
:47:04. > :47:07.That is all you want to do. Pluck people... What will the Liberal
:47:08. > :47:18.Democrats' plans be? Will they be radical? You would not start from
:47:19. > :47:21.here as the old joke goes. The SNP fought two elections with the
:47:22. > :47:27.promise to scrap the council tax, and they have tinkered at the edges.
:47:28. > :47:35.What about the Liberal Democrats? What are you going to do? We are
:47:36. > :47:42.going to announce this on Monday, or on the day we announce our manifesto
:47:43. > :47:46.next week, there was a tremendous amount of good faith which went into
:47:47. > :47:50.the tax commission and as you know, the Liberals have always been
:47:51. > :47:52.focused on making local accountability, allowing local
:47:53. > :47:56.authorities to set their own rates and this will be in our manifesto
:47:57. > :48:01.going forward. I will come back to the panel in a moment. I want to
:48:02. > :48:06.bring in Angela O'Hagan who sat on the committee for tax reform. What
:48:07. > :48:11.do you think of the proposals you have heard so far? Have a fallen
:48:12. > :48:16.short of what you were hoping for? I think looked we are hearing across
:48:17. > :48:24.the parties is cherry picking -- what we are hearing. Some come
:48:25. > :48:29.closer to the spirit of the commission than others. There is
:48:30. > :48:34.cherry picking of the principles around the return to local
:48:35. > :48:35.democracy, the ease of administration and fundamentally
:48:36. > :48:44.recognising the differentials and ability to pay and the factors that
:48:45. > :48:48.contribute to pay across Scotland. The shying away from revaluation is
:48:49. > :48:55.a really significant stumbling block to progress on taxation alongside
:48:56. > :48:59.the return to democratic control and greater autonomy. And the central
:49:00. > :49:02.recommendation, or one of the central recommendations from the
:49:03. > :49:08.commission was for a basket of measures taken over a longer period
:49:09. > :49:12.of time, rather than cherry picking and inevitably, the cherry picking
:49:13. > :49:16.in the lead-in to the election, where pitfalls have been picked off
:49:17. > :49:19.to create political argument, rather than respond to the kind of
:49:20. > :49:24.questions we are hearing about tonight which is tax Justice, tax
:49:25. > :49:27.transformation, revolution in how we expand our tax base and generate
:49:28. > :49:33.greater revenue into the longer term. Thank you. Let me put that to
:49:34. > :49:37.John Swinney. You have come up with new proposals but you have shied
:49:38. > :49:42.away from a re-evaluation. Think we have answered the challenge that
:49:43. > :49:47.Angela talked about of essentially recognising that has to be a range
:49:48. > :49:53.of changes taken forward. We have set out proposals that would see
:49:54. > :49:57.properties and paying the council tax in bands E and upwards, paying
:49:58. > :50:01.more in taxation with due protection in place for those on low incomes
:50:02. > :50:10.who are living on higher value properties will stop. They then take
:50:11. > :50:13.into account also the move towards a discussion and dialogue with local
:50:14. > :50:19.government about putting in place a system which gives incentive to
:50:20. > :50:22.local authorities to support the growth in the tax base in local
:50:23. > :50:26.areas, which was one of the issues raised with us with the local tax
:50:27. > :50:36.commission. It is an acknowledgement that we need to take a number of
:50:37. > :50:40.steps to build on. One or tea was to give back to local authorities
:50:41. > :50:44.control of over ?2 billion worth of expenditure which was ring-fenced by
:50:45. > :50:48.the Scottish Government when we came to office, and secondly, to liberate
:50:49. > :50:51.members of the public from the exorbitant increases in the Council
:50:52. > :50:57.tax that took place before we to office. We go back to the 2007
:50:58. > :51:01.election. It was the biggest issue in the election because people were
:51:02. > :51:04.so frustrated by the way the Labour Party and the Conservatives had
:51:05. > :51:19.hyped up local taxation. We have given that protection, we are now...
:51:20. > :51:23.Parliament would not support it. In 2011 we fought the election on a
:51:24. > :51:31.commitment to engage a debate which we undertook to enable local
:51:32. > :51:35.authorities and other stakeholders to be involved in a discussion about
:51:36. > :51:41.the future of local taxes. I will come to Murdo Fraser but let me hear
:51:42. > :51:47.from some voters. In 2007, it was yourselves and the Tories who locked
:51:48. > :51:53.the change of council tax. They wanted to change it to local income
:51:54. > :51:57.taxes. You voted against it in Parliament. Don't raise it with me!
:51:58. > :52:06.Let's hear from the chap at the back. I want to hear from the man at
:52:07. > :52:11.the back. Thank you. I am absolutely astonished at John Swinney and the
:52:12. > :52:16.SNP government's timidity at changing local authority taxation.
:52:17. > :52:20.Yes, in 2007 they said they would abolish it. They didn't. They
:52:21. > :52:24.realised a local income tax would be too expensive to add minister and
:52:25. > :52:27.not raise the cash where it is needed. I notice in your current
:52:28. > :52:32.proposals that you are proposing to allow some local authorities to keep
:52:33. > :52:36.parts of the local council tax raised there. Can I just tell you
:52:37. > :52:40.that some local authorities like Glasgow, Dundee, North Lanarkshire,
:52:41. > :52:46.have areas of huge need and people in abject poverty and deprivation.
:52:47. > :52:52.Yet people out with those local authorities, 40% of people working
:52:53. > :52:58.in Glasgow do not live in Glasgow. They would rather pay the areas of
:52:59. > :53:04.wealth rather than the areas of need. Their proposals are timid and
:53:05. > :53:10.quite frankly, regressive. Very briefly, I will let John answer that
:53:11. > :53:14.point. What we are doing with local taxation is aligning it to people's
:53:15. > :53:18.ability to pay. Higher value properties would pay more in council
:53:19. > :53:22.tax than previously. We have also taken steps to enable local
:53:23. > :53:26.authorities to be able to raise the council tax after nine years of
:53:27. > :53:29.protecting council taxpayers from the exorbitant increases which have
:53:30. > :53:33.taken place in previous years. That is us for filling can admit we have
:53:34. > :53:38.made, two members of the public, supported in the election campaigns
:53:39. > :53:44.in 2007 and 2011 to deliver that commitment and promise. I need to
:53:45. > :53:50.bring Murdo Fraser in here. The SNP have been criticised for being too
:53:51. > :53:54.timid. You're not suggesting anything radical either? I feel
:53:55. > :53:57.sorry for Angela and the commission. One Keira commendation was that
:53:58. > :54:04.council tax should be scrapped and that has not happened. -- one key
:54:05. > :54:10.recommendation. We came up with a set of proposals which are
:54:11. > :54:14.remarkably similar to the proposals the SNP are now taking forward. What
:54:15. > :54:20.matters for people of how much money they are paying. I think the council
:54:21. > :54:24.tax freeze overall has been a good thing. It is protecting the budget
:54:25. > :54:31.at a time when incomes are not doing well. We think the proposals go too
:54:32. > :54:36.far. We would not see any increase in bands E and F and a small
:54:37. > :54:39.increase in bands G and H because we do think the larger properties
:54:40. > :54:44.should contribute more and we will allow the council is to put up the
:54:45. > :54:47.rate by up to 3% a year. We think that is moderate and balanced and it
:54:48. > :54:51.puts more money into government for things like education but it does
:54:52. > :54:59.not fleece people just because they happen to live in a slightly above
:55:00. > :55:01.average sized property. There is no direct qualification between the
:55:02. > :55:11.size of a property and how much wealth individuals have -- no direct
:55:12. > :55:16.correlation. Some of them who may live in large houses are one month
:55:17. > :55:21.away from defaulting on their mortgages. David Coburn, let's hear
:55:22. > :55:28.from the young man who had his hand up. You said the localisation of
:55:29. > :55:32.council tax back to councils had brought ?1 billion to councils. Why
:55:33. > :55:43.is it that people like us have had cuts to services which people like
:55:44. > :55:46.our use? When we came to office in 2007, the decisions were determined
:55:47. > :55:50.by decisions taken by Scottish ministers. We put that back to the
:55:51. > :55:54.local authority at their request to give them more flexibility and
:55:55. > :55:58.control at a local level. In all of the local government settlements I
:55:59. > :56:03.have presided over, we have done our level best to protect local
:56:04. > :56:06.authorities Bencic and if you compare the performance of local
:56:07. > :56:09.authority spending compared with English local authority spending,
:56:10. > :56:13.local authorities in Scotland have had a much stronger as sustainable
:56:14. > :56:19.form of funding than English local authorities have had. We have
:56:20. > :56:26.reduced local authority expenditure by 1%. That is an acknowledgement of
:56:27. > :56:30.the challenges we faced in the budget in 2016-17, but we are giving
:56:31. > :56:34.a commitment to invest in the changes we are making to support
:56:35. > :56:40.education and support other local authority services. Quite a few
:56:41. > :56:48.people want to get in. I think the gentleman at the back was right. We
:56:49. > :56:53.have a government paralysed. The SNP revealed taxation policies or taking
:56:54. > :56:58.a stance which Murdo said made his Tory heart sing. That goes to show
:56:59. > :57:04.how timid the SNP have been. We are running short of time. I would like
:57:05. > :57:09.to hear from the lady in red. You said earlier that the SNP stand up
:57:10. > :57:12.for Scotland so why are they not standing up for Scotland's
:57:13. > :57:19.schoolchildren, when we are losing 4000 teachers a year when it is a
:57:20. > :57:23.result of your policies? The man in the back row with the striped
:57:24. > :57:30.T-shirt. You say have been aggressive in the last year.
:57:31. > :57:35.Children in poverty has gone up -- you said you have been progressive.
:57:36. > :57:40.How is that being progressive? I think when you talk about local
:57:41. > :57:45.spend tax, you are not bearing in mind the state of democracy at a
:57:46. > :57:50.local level. Effectively, you have an elected dictatorship as you often
:57:51. > :57:56.have at national level. When it comes to people like myself and our
:57:57. > :58:02.families, carers and people with disabilities, you are in such a tiny
:58:03. > :58:05.minority that they can effectively fob you off with hundreds of
:58:06. > :58:09.bureaucrats over years and in some cases decades. Your ability to
:58:10. > :58:15.actually access anything that we are supposedly paying for, and this is
:58:16. > :58:20.predated 2008, is extremely limited. Can I add one more point? I agree
:58:21. > :58:24.with the four or five bands of taxation because that is there.
:58:25. > :58:30.Thank you so much for your contributions. That is it for our
:58:31. > :58:34.special debate. Thank you very much to our panel, the studio audience
:58:35. > :58:39.and to you at home watching. We will be doing it again next Tuesday, this
:58:40. > :58:45.time on the subject of help. If you want to be in the audience, go to
:58:46. > :58:55.the Scotland 2016 online page where you can apply. Goodbye.
:58:56. > :59:02.Scotland's identity, culture and voice were fast disappearing.
:59:03. > :59:05.The 20th century was not distinctively Scottish.
:59:06. > :59:10.But a small army of writers were fighting to revive it.
:59:11. > :59:14.He wants to stir things up, and he wants people to read more widely.