:00:08. > :00:13.Tonight, in the latest of our special election debates, we are
:00:14. > :00:19.discussing energy and the environment. There is lots to talk
:00:20. > :00:24.about, from fuel bills to securing Scotland's future energy supply. Our
:00:25. > :00:31.studio audience have plenty of questions. Representing the Liberal
:00:32. > :00:43.Democrats Alex Paul Hamilton. Fergus Ewing is here for the SNP. For the
:00:44. > :00:51.Conservatives, Alex Johnstone. And Labour, Sarah Boyack.
:00:52. > :01:10.Hallow, and welcome. Let's get straight into it with our first
:01:11. > :01:17.question, from Jack Brough. What would you like to ask? What are each
:01:18. > :01:24.party doing to make energy more affordable for families? More than a
:01:25. > :01:28.third of households spend 10% of income on household fuel, which is
:01:29. > :01:34.the definition of fuel poverty. What would the Liberal Democrats do to
:01:35. > :01:39.make energy prices more affordable? It is an excellent question. We look
:01:40. > :01:44.at social housing stock and 30% of those homes are below standard in
:01:45. > :01:49.terms of energy standards. That is an outrage. It leads directly to
:01:50. > :01:57.fuel poverty. The Liberal Democrats will introduce a warm homes act,
:01:58. > :02:00.which will see a massive national infrastructure programme rolled out
:02:01. > :02:06.with catch up signs directed at those areas which are hardest hit by
:02:07. > :02:10.fuel poverty in the first instance. Secondly, and equally importantly,
:02:11. > :02:20.we will ensure these homes have access to things like heating,
:02:21. > :02:24.renewable technology, and the latest standards of installation. We will
:02:25. > :02:30.build 50,000 new homes to address Scotland's crisis and all of these
:02:31. > :02:35.will be fitted out with the highest speculation and micro-Mouinho balls
:02:36. > :02:42.to bring down bills and generate electricity to feed into the grid.
:02:43. > :02:46.-- micro-renewables. The Government has said people will not be living
:02:47. > :02:52.in fuel poverty by the end of November. Fuel poverty is the
:02:53. > :02:58.scourge of our society. What we have done and what we hope to do, let me
:02:59. > :03:02.say. We have done is carried out 900,000 measures to improve the
:03:03. > :03:06.energy efficiency of homes, such as new boilers or cavity wall
:03:07. > :03:14.insulation. That is a third of all the houses. We want to do more than
:03:15. > :03:18.that. Next year, there will be ?104 million invested in energy
:03:19. > :03:25.efficiency measures affecting 14,000 homes. We need to look at the wider
:03:26. > :03:29.electricity and heat costs and provide an overall system that does
:03:30. > :03:34.not discriminate against those who have least. That means providing
:03:35. > :03:39.proper tariffs but also making the market such that we are not at the
:03:40. > :03:46.stage where we have a zero margin. There is no real margin between peak
:03:47. > :03:49.supply and peak demand in the UK and that makes for higher prices than
:03:50. > :03:55.there should be. A proper margin should be around 20%. That is a
:03:56. > :03:59.failure of the wider policy in relation to electricity and energy,
:04:00. > :04:04.which is a matter reserved to the UK Government. If they third of
:04:05. > :04:12.households in Scotland are in fuel poverty, it is really not achievable
:04:13. > :04:15.by November that you will eradicate it. A manifesto will be announced
:04:16. > :04:22.tomorrow which will have a variety of measures. 900,000 measures are a
:04:23. > :04:28.lot. They have made a real difference to people's lives. There
:04:29. > :04:32.is a lot more to be done, particularly in the islands and
:04:33. > :04:36.rural Scotland where the level of fuel poverty is the worst of all.
:04:37. > :04:40.One way to do that is to connect the islands to the National Grid. They
:04:41. > :04:45.are not connected at the moment. According to a report by this could
:04:46. > :04:50.unleash enormous economic benefits which could be used, taking money
:04:51. > :04:58.from their wind to tackle the fuel poverty caused by the fierce cold of
:04:59. > :05:02.the wind. Alex Johnson, it is reserved. Why isn't the Conservative
:05:03. > :05:12.government doing more to bring the big six energy companies to book?
:05:13. > :05:18.The real problem in Scotland is fuel poverty is not dropping because of
:05:19. > :05:26.poor energy efficiency in Scotland's homes, particularly with stock that
:05:27. > :05:31.is already built. If it is to be affordable, gas prices have fallen
:05:32. > :05:36.by 40% electricity prices by 30%. This has not been passed on to
:05:37. > :05:40.consumers. This needs to be done. The most important thing we can do
:05:41. > :05:46.in Scotland is to ensure consumers need less energy to heat our homes.
:05:47. > :05:51.That is why the Conservatives will ensure that ?1 billion of additional
:05:52. > :05:55.capital is made available to improve the energy efficiency of Scottish
:05:56. > :06:00.housing stock. That is a huge amount of money. It will be difficult to
:06:01. > :06:04.get it out of the door. Our plan is to ensure that that begins on day
:06:05. > :06:09.one and build over the five years so we can finish the five years of the
:06:10. > :06:16.next Parliament with ?1 million a day being spent on improving energy
:06:17. > :06:20.efficiency in Scotland's homes. I would like to ask Sarah Boyack, what
:06:21. > :06:27.with Scottish Labour do to make energy more affordable? It is about
:06:28. > :06:32.generating more affordable energy and heat generated in communities.
:06:33. > :06:37.We want a warm homes act to enable us to get going on heating projects.
:06:38. > :06:41.We need clear leadership, we need a Scottish Government committed to
:06:42. > :06:46.making this happen. You need to make sure we tackle the challenge of
:06:47. > :06:51.poverty. Too many people are having to choose between heating and
:06:52. > :06:56.eating. That is unacceptable in the 20th century. Also energy efficiency
:06:57. > :06:59.to bring up the standards of existing stock and acting on
:07:00. > :07:07.poverty. That all needs to come together. We can bring in these
:07:08. > :07:12.acts, it is just chipping away. You put in loft insulation and to wall
:07:13. > :07:17.cavity, backdrops by 5%. It is chipping away at the problem. We
:07:18. > :07:22.need to be more dynamic and accept the future is nuclear. For every
:07:23. > :07:28.nuclear reactor that is not built, that is 5200 windmills we need to
:07:29. > :07:35.carpet Scotland with. Is that what we want? We will come onto that
:07:36. > :07:41.later in the debate. A lot of people are in poverty because they are not
:07:42. > :07:47.on the gas grid. You work in the industry? I do. Everyone wants to
:07:48. > :07:54.heat homes with gas because it is cheaper than electricity. People in
:07:55. > :08:02.fuel poverty have to pay so much more to heat their homes with
:08:03. > :08:07.electricity. The man at the back. Often we engage with customers who
:08:08. > :08:11.do live in energy efficient homes. They have to ration energy because
:08:12. > :08:17.they cannot afford to meet the energy costs. A simpler tariffs, a
:08:18. > :08:25.simpler way to pay, a cheaper way to pay is probably moving forward. The
:08:26. > :08:28.gentleman on the far side. It was mentioned the Western Isles is
:08:29. > :08:31.struggling with the grid and getting renewables and how developing
:08:32. > :08:36.renewables could be used to tackle fuel poverty. The vast majority of
:08:37. > :08:40.renewable energy projects are developed by large commercial
:08:41. > :08:45.companies, often owned by foreign investors. Only a fraction is
:08:46. > :08:47.developed by communities and people living in the local area, like
:08:48. > :08:53.farmers. I would like to know from the panel what they will do to
:08:54. > :08:59.support more community and locally developed energy projects. We have
:09:00. > :09:04.already achieved the target set in the last election of achieving unity
:09:05. > :09:12.renewable schemes to 500 megawatts. I can say that tonight that we will
:09:13. > :09:17.be setting a target of one gigawatt by 2020 of community schemes. We
:09:18. > :09:22.will also be setting a target that half of all the newly consented
:09:23. > :09:26.schemes will have to have a community ownership proponent. There
:09:27. > :09:30.is a fair measure of support across the parties for this. We are setting
:09:31. > :09:35.ambitious targets and we want to do more. We already have achieved a lot
:09:36. > :09:42.in community ownership. There is much further to go. It is not made
:09:43. > :09:48.easier by the fact we have seen the abrupt cessation for support for
:09:49. > :09:52.renewables from the London government, which defies reason and
:09:53. > :09:56.is having a very worrying impact on many communities, who planned for
:09:57. > :10:00.years to deliver their schemes to be able to deliver it under the system
:10:01. > :10:05.is set by Westminster. APPLAUSE
:10:06. > :10:08.We are going to move on to renewables in the debate later but
:10:09. > :10:15.before that I would like to know what Jack thinks of the answers he
:10:16. > :10:20.has heard so far. I do not see how in this country we can still have
:10:21. > :10:26.people who cannot heat their homes. We have got all these gas reserves
:10:27. > :10:33.in the North Sea and we still have a lot of people in this country that
:10:34. > :10:42.are going to bed cold at night. It is a disgrace. Thank you. Now, our
:10:43. > :10:50.second question comes from Matthew Munch who is doing a Ph.D. In
:10:51. > :10:56.climate change politics. It is not true we have a lot of oil and gas in
:10:57. > :11:00.this country. The problem is not the oil and gas reserves, it is the
:11:01. > :11:05.atmospheric capacity to hold those emissions. What will you do to
:11:06. > :11:18.tackle the fossil fuel industry? Are you planning to keep it alive at any
:11:19. > :11:22.cost? Alex Cole Hamilton. It is certain that oil will run out in the
:11:23. > :11:27.foreseeable future in Scotland. That is the end of the industry. I do not
:11:28. > :11:35.think we should arbitrarily bring that about any faster. Many jobs
:11:36. > :11:38.depend on oil and gas. The wider question about emissions, this is
:11:39. > :11:42.something where political rhetoric has not been matched by action.
:11:43. > :11:47.Nicola Sturgeon went to the Paris talks last year and said that all of
:11:48. > :11:52.that rhetoric had to be backed up by meaningful action. Four days later,
:11:53. > :11:57.the finance secretary took ?500 million out of the climate change
:11:58. > :12:03.but it is part of the spending measures he had taken. That is not
:12:04. > :12:08.the political reality we need. In terms of the substance of your
:12:09. > :12:13.question, we need to protect the oil and gas industry which is in crisis.
:12:14. > :12:17.It is leading to a social catastrophe in that part of the
:12:18. > :12:23.world. It is part of a greater mix of energy resources we need to
:12:24. > :12:28.deploy in this country. We are told the North Sea and the UK continental
:12:29. > :12:35.shelf still has a life span of 40, 50 years. Should be exploited? Yes,
:12:36. > :12:39.it should. It has to be recognised it is important to provide cheap
:12:40. > :12:46.energy to avoid the fuel poverty we were talking about. What about
:12:47. > :12:50.climate change? We have to understand this will be worked on
:12:51. > :12:55.overtime. Stopping burning coal, as we have done in Scotland, to
:12:56. > :12:59.generate electricity, and replacing that with gas is a significant,
:13:00. > :13:04.interim change in getting higher performance from the carbon we put
:13:05. > :13:08.into the atmosphere. Changing to gas is vital. That is why I believe it
:13:09. > :13:13.is vital that we take every opportunity to extend the capacity
:13:14. > :13:17.to produce gas within Scotland, not just in the North Sea, because half
:13:18. > :13:24.of the gas in the North Sea is Norwegian gas and we have to pay a
:13:25. > :13:27.market rate for it, but also to exploit the gas which is under our
:13:28. > :13:34.feet in Scotland. Gentleman at the back.
:13:35. > :13:40.The representative Conservative Party has said it is something we
:13:41. > :13:45.have got to deal with overtime, we don't have time. 50 years sounds
:13:46. > :13:49.like a lot but with a growing population and growing need for
:13:50. > :13:53.energy it won't last that long. Once it is gone, it's gone. We need to
:13:54. > :13:57.start working on ways to build up other sections of the economy so we
:13:58. > :14:09.don't rely on something that doesn't have that one left.
:14:10. > :14:52.don't rely on something that doesn't now to a low carbon economy. I would
:14:53. > :16:03.have liked to have seen the Scottish Government
:16:04. > :16:07.record to heat their homes in Scotland. But because of climate
:16:08. > :16:16.change, in 15 years we will have to heat our homes in another way. I
:16:17. > :16:22.have been in a few houses heated by electricity, it is not great. How
:16:23. > :16:30.about we are going to build houses that are warm with gas now but not
:16:31. > :16:37.gas in the future. Will you try to keep the industry alive at any cost
:16:38. > :16:45.to the environment? The people in the oil and gas industry deserve our
:16:46. > :16:55.support. Oil and gas will help us develop renewables. A Norwegian oil
:16:56. > :17:00.company came to Scotland and they are now developing the world's
:17:01. > :17:04.largest floating offshore wind farm. It can be deployed anywhere to get
:17:05. > :17:09.the best wind conditions. They are also doing an experiment with a
:17:10. > :17:16.lithium battery to store the energy from the wind, the electricity
:17:17. > :17:22.generated from wind energy. That is an example of crossover of skills.
:17:23. > :17:26.There's a second point that needs to be made. We will need oil and gas
:17:27. > :17:33.way into the future but for different things, for chemicals, for
:17:34. > :17:44.plastics, household products. We will need oil and gas but for
:17:45. > :17:49.different reasons. District heating we have in some areas. One of the
:17:50. > :17:55.best adverts for it was a woman who said, now I have got district
:17:56. > :17:59.heating, I don't have to wear my coat in the house. That was a
:18:00. > :18:03.telling example, and it is a direction of travel we want to
:18:04. > :18:08.encourage. We need to get to the point where we don't just name the
:18:09. > :18:12.projects in Scotland because there are so few, we need these
:18:13. > :18:17.everywhere. Renewable heat needs to be across the whole country and we
:18:18. > :18:21.are just not doing it at the moment. We need stronger targets, and using
:18:22. > :18:34.the technology and the companies we have in Scotland who could bring
:18:35. > :18:37.that about now. We need a Warm Homes Act to make it happen. It is all
:18:38. > :18:42.very well saying you want a transition but none of the parties
:18:43. > :18:48.have a plan. I have seen the Greens have a plan for 200,000 jobs. My
:18:49. > :18:52.father works in the North Sea, has worked there on and off for the last
:18:53. > :18:58.30 years but every time there is a slump in the oil price he gets laid
:18:59. > :19:03.off, then taken back again. That is not a reliable job. We need to work
:19:04. > :19:10.towards getting people from the North Sea into renewables so they
:19:11. > :19:12.can support their families. The man next to you. Regarding the
:19:13. > :19:18.investment from Norway and renewables, Norway are obviously
:19:19. > :19:29.putting aside money from their oil fields into an oil fund, we haven't
:19:30. > :19:38.been doing that because it has been mismanaged over a generation or two.
:19:39. > :19:45.What do you make of the panellists? I find it scary. In December all the
:19:46. > :19:50.world governments agreed to limit the rise of the global temperature
:19:51. > :19:55.to two degrees and this means 80% of all known oil fossil fuel reserves
:19:56. > :20:01.will need to stay in the ground on torched. When you talk about gas as
:20:02. > :20:06.a bridge for you all in order to implement renewables in 50 years,
:20:07. > :20:14.that is simply not the reality we are in. We need a serious plan to
:20:15. > :20:28.implement renewables straightaway. Thank you. Now let's hear from Clare
:20:29. > :20:36.McWilliams, who has another question for the politicians. Should there be
:20:37. > :20:39.a permanent ban on fracking in Scotland? The moratorium will be in
:20:40. > :20:50.place until after the election, should that ban be permanent? Yes.
:20:51. > :20:55.The research has been carried out by the SNP but they are focusing on
:20:56. > :20:59.restoration and mitigating the impact. When we look at the
:21:00. > :21:04.experience we have had, this is not the right way to go. We need to be
:21:05. > :21:10.managing what we have in terms of oil and gas better, and investing in
:21:11. > :21:16.big style renewables. That's the way forward for Scotland, not fracking.
:21:17. > :21:20.No ifs, no buts, no fracking from Scottish Labour. Even if the
:21:21. > :21:24.evidence is that it is safe for health, safe for the environment?
:21:25. > :21:35.What about the jobs it could bring? We know about issues in the US to do
:21:36. > :21:38.with methane, water quality issues, and a fundamental issue about
:21:39. > :21:41.opening another new source of fossil fuels at a point when we needed
:21:42. > :21:48.transition to use what we have got better and to move to a different
:21:49. > :21:55.source of energy. For us it is going in the wrong direction. The reason
:21:56. > :21:59.we have got a moratorium is because SNP activists, climate activists
:22:00. > :22:02.demanded that the government acted. The moratorium cannot be just to get
:22:03. > :22:13.them through the election, we don't want fracking to take place at all.
:22:14. > :22:19.Fergus Ewing, should there be a permanent ban on fracking? This is a
:22:20. > :22:31.big question for Scotland, it is a question for all of us as a country
:22:32. > :22:35.to decide. We approached this with scepticism but we think we should
:22:36. > :22:40.study all the evidence. Therefore, as well as the moratorium, a process
:22:41. > :22:45.incidentally which was praised by Friends of the Earth, as was our
:22:46. > :22:49.evidence process. We are taking evidence as how it may affect
:22:50. > :22:55.Scotland. There's lots of evidence throughout the world but none about
:22:56. > :23:01.how it might impact in. Therefore we are taking evidence on a whole range
:23:02. > :23:05.of areas. The environment, transportation, at my behest
:23:06. > :23:09.incidentally, public health, the economy and the process itself. That
:23:10. > :23:17.evidence will be available in the autumn. There will then be a
:23:18. > :23:21.national consultation as the energy minister, I wholly opposed the UK
:23:22. > :23:25.Government's attempts to be able to carry out this activity beneath
:23:26. > :23:29.people's homes without their consent. I oppose that and
:23:30. > :23:33.successfully prevented that from happening in Scotland, and I was
:23:34. > :23:39.also part of a Scottish Government move to transfer the licensing to
:23:40. > :23:43.Scotland. We do not support the gung ho approach of the Conservatives
:23:44. > :23:49.there should be an evidence -based approach on such a big decision, a
:23:50. > :23:56.big decision could affect our futures, so let study the evidence
:23:57. > :24:07.and then come to a decision. After all, as a lawyer you reach a verdict
:24:08. > :24:11.after listening to the evidence. Alex Johnstone, do you think a
:24:12. > :24:16.moratorium should have been introduced in the first place? The
:24:17. > :24:22.Scottish Government will acquire the power for onshore gas and oil
:24:23. > :24:27.production in Scotland. The moratorium is only for onshore
:24:28. > :24:32.production. Hydraulic easing and other techniques are used under the
:24:33. > :24:39.North Sea every day of the week. They are used successfully, safely
:24:40. > :24:43.and in ways that don't damage the environment. They are used by
:24:44. > :24:47.companies in Scotland who have the ability and skills necessary to do
:24:48. > :24:56.this effectively. So he wouldn't support a permanent ban? Scotland
:24:57. > :25:03.has a huge resource of oil and gas, we need to allow our industry to tap
:25:04. > :25:07.that reserve. If we don't and they decide to do it south of the border
:25:08. > :25:11.without our involvement, companies that are integral to the Scottish
:25:12. > :25:16.economy, operating within the Scottish economy and in the North
:25:17. > :25:21.Sea today, will find their future resides outside Scotland and we
:25:22. > :25:30.cannot allow that to happen. Alex Cole Hamilton. It is interesting to
:25:31. > :25:37.listen to Fergus Ewing squirm on that. Your party has not been
:25:38. > :25:42.without flip-flopping on this issue. I am glad you brought that up. We
:25:43. > :25:47.allowed our party to have a debate on that, the SNP didn't extend that
:25:48. > :25:57.courtesy to their own members. Then your leader overruled it. As the job
:25:58. > :26:01.of the policy committee to make sure our policy is coherent and scans and
:26:02. > :26:05.read across, and it didn't on climate change, and that was the
:26:06. > :26:10.right decision to take. That's OK, there will be dissent in our party
:26:11. > :26:18.but we tolerate that. The SNP make their members sign an agreement not
:26:19. > :26:23.to do that. As Sarah said, we cannot meet our energy needs by opening up
:26:24. > :26:26.another frontier of fossil fuels. There is no question in the climate
:26:27. > :26:33.change challenge to which fracking is part of the solution and we have
:26:34. > :26:36.to be big about this. We have been big about this because Liberal
:26:37. > :26:41.Democrats doubled the renewable of energy to 15% in just five years. It
:26:42. > :26:54.shows how quickly we can do it if the political will is there. In
:26:55. > :26:59.Germany, after the -- Fukushima, they close down their nuclear
:27:00. > :27:04.energy. So you are saying a permanent ban on fracking?
:27:05. > :27:08.Absolutely. Just to respond to the point, Fergus Ewing. We did debate
:27:09. > :27:13.this at a party conference, there was a vote and the delegates
:27:14. > :27:17.supported the position the Scottish Government had adopted. Let me say
:27:18. > :27:22.this, there are many people strongly opposed to this, there are some
:27:23. > :27:25.people strongly for it but there are many others who I think want to know
:27:26. > :27:31.more about it. Surely one of the duties of government is to provide
:27:32. > :27:36.independent, unbiased expert evidence so we can then have a
:27:37. > :27:39.proper national debate and the whole country can be involved in reaching
:27:40. > :27:45.the final decision, whatever it may be. Let's hear from some of the
:27:46. > :27:50.audience. Richard Dickson from Friends of the Earth, do you think
:27:51. > :27:54.the band should be permanent? Yes, obviously I do. I have some sympathy
:27:55. > :28:00.for Fergus Ewing because the government cannot say something
:28:01. > :28:03.really strong during the election. We are getting some interesting
:28:04. > :28:09.messages from the First Minister. What sort of messages? She has said
:28:10. > :28:13.she is personally highly sceptical about fracking and has said if there
:28:14. > :28:18.is any suggestion of an adverse environmental impacts we won't have
:28:19. > :28:21.fracking. I would like to suggest there will be an adverse
:28:22. > :28:27.environmental impacts so hopefully that has stopped it now! We will
:28:28. > :28:31.complete this process, and I'm convinced because of the evidence
:28:32. > :28:35.around the world that has convinced France, the Netherlands and New York
:28:36. > :28:36.State to ban fracking, when we have looked at that evidence we will make
:28:37. > :28:49.that decision. Lady at the back. I would like to
:28:50. > :28:54.scotch the myth we can rely on renewables. Wind is intermittent. We
:28:55. > :29:02.do not have large-scale storage. You cited Germany as an example, a
:29:03. > :29:06.shining example. Emissions have gone through the roof because they have
:29:07. > :29:11.had to build coal fired power stations. We really need to be
:29:12. > :29:16.realistic. It is all very well setting targets but who is going to
:29:17. > :29:20.actually pay for the targets to be met? In the end it will be
:29:21. > :29:27.consumers. You will be plunging far more people into fuel poverty with
:29:28. > :29:35.York renewable future -- your renewable future if you pursue as
:29:36. > :29:39.and fracking. Now for our next question from Scott Simpson. What
:29:40. > :29:45.would you like to ask the politicians? Will renewable energy
:29:46. > :29:53.be enough on its own to meet Scotland's needs or should we be
:29:54. > :29:57.revisiting nuclear? Alex Johnson. No, renewable will not be enough on
:29:58. > :30:02.its own. The reason is the intermittency we have heard of. If
:30:03. > :30:07.we're going to use particularly onshore wind, it must be as part of
:30:08. > :30:13.our balanced energy policy. If that is to be low carbon, it must include
:30:14. > :30:18.nuclear. We have already made the mistake, in my view, of not
:30:19. > :30:21.committing to replace nuclear stations in Scotland. We have made
:30:22. > :30:28.another mistake that in order to achieve that, we are relying on
:30:29. > :30:36.plants M Hunterston working beyond their lifetime. That is the mistake
:30:37. > :30:42.they made in Japan. The Fukishima power station worked beyond its life
:30:43. > :30:46.span. We are making the same mistakes with that we must consider
:30:47. > :30:51.nuclear pounds for the long -- nuclear power for the long-term.
:30:52. > :30:56.There are proposals for small, modular nuclear power stations which
:30:57. > :31:01.can be made to work in the Scottish context and on shorter timescales.
:31:02. > :31:07.The truth is, our overreliance on expensive, onshore wind energy means
:31:08. > :31:12.we are now also over reliant on imported electricity through the
:31:13. > :31:16.grid from south of the border, much of which is nuclear generated. We
:31:17. > :31:23.did not build a nuclear power station but we have nuclear capacity
:31:24. > :31:31.augmented by nuclear power from the south. Where do you stand on nuclear
:31:32. > :31:35.energy? We are using nuclear energy at the moment. The key thing is we
:31:36. > :31:39.must remain part of the UK to do that. We think the priority and
:31:40. > :31:44.scholars should be investing in renewables. That is where we have
:31:45. > :31:50.ways and onshore opportunities to come. Not so much in investing in
:31:51. > :31:52.battery technology. We have new fleets of trains and new electric
:31:53. > :32:02.cars and we need to reconsider what we are doing. -- reconfigure what we
:32:03. > :32:06.are doing. Many people have criticised the procurement process
:32:07. > :32:09.which has led to the UK Government approach. We think what they are
:32:10. > :32:17.doing is they have taken wrong decisions. It is low carbon. The
:32:18. > :32:20.point is we will benefit in years to come when they finally get the
:32:21. > :32:27.investment going. It will take years to come. Members of the audience
:32:28. > :32:31.have said we need to get moving on low carbon and invest so we can get
:32:32. > :32:35.renewable heat and renewable electricity. We need to make the
:32:36. > :32:39.most of our natural advantages in Scotland. That is what we are not
:32:40. > :32:43.doing. That is where the Scottish parliament will make a difference.
:32:44. > :32:47.We need a proper energy plan which weighs in the balance with all the
:32:48. > :32:51.opportunities and make sure we work with the private sector and use the
:32:52. > :32:56.green Investment Bank and get involved in those technologies. That
:32:57. > :33:03.should be the priority for the next Scottish Government. Where are the
:33:04. > :33:07.Lib Dems are nuclear power? We are opposed to nuclear power stations in
:33:08. > :33:12.Scotland. 50 years into the nuclear experiment we have no viable
:33:13. > :33:16.solution for dealing with waste. In terms of the renewables revolution,
:33:17. > :33:21.as Scots, we often moan about the weather but it is one of the most
:33:22. > :33:26.fantastic and most important assets. If we harness it we could power our
:33:27. > :33:31.country but also have it as an export as well. We could sell it to
:33:32. > :33:38.Europe and buy it back on the days when we are not producing power. We
:33:39. > :33:42.have the storage capability which is advancing all the time. The
:33:43. > :33:47.technology is building. We are seeing investment in renewable
:33:48. > :33:50.technology which is not as intermittent. Tidal technology is
:33:51. > :33:58.constant. You get power all the time. There is Singaporean
:33:59. > :34:03.investment from Atlantis coming on stream soon. How we get communities
:34:04. > :34:07.to buy into the importance of renewable technology. We heard our
:34:08. > :34:13.gentleman in the front talking about carpeting the landscape with
:34:14. > :34:18.windmills. There is negative stigma attached to renewable technology.
:34:19. > :34:21.People do not see tangible benefit to renewable technology, other than
:34:22. > :34:27.what they see as an eyesore on the horizon. We have not grappled back
:34:28. > :34:31.community ownership, the paper to communities. If you give that
:34:32. > :34:38.investment to communities, you will enlist hearts and minds would --
:34:39. > :34:44.behind a renewables revolution in this country. We cannot treat
:34:45. > :34:49.nuclear as a panacea. Remember the nuclear plant in England that will
:34:50. > :34:54.be built as an energy cost of up to three times as much as wind energy.
:34:55. > :34:59.We need to have a more diverse portfolio of renewable energy, not
:35:00. > :35:04.just focusing on wind but also on hydro as we have and looking at
:35:05. > :35:12.other tidal lounges and developing that further so we can deal with the
:35:13. > :35:17.intermittency of wind power. The SNP says it is against nuclear power but
:35:18. > :35:22.a third of Scotland's electricity comes from Torness and Hunterston.
:35:23. > :35:28.You will not be able to stop relying on it yet, will you? We have said
:35:29. > :35:32.they should continue to generate electricity as long as they can do
:35:33. > :35:36.so. It is unfair for the people who work there to compare them even
:35:37. > :35:41.indirectly with Fukishima because they are very closely regulated. We
:35:42. > :35:46.have very high ambitions for renewables in Scotland. Winston
:35:47. > :35:50.Churchill said, the solution in relation to electricity supply is
:35:51. > :35:58.for righty and variety alone. Therefore, one cannot rely entirely
:35:59. > :36:07.on renewables. -- is a riot he and the righty alone. That variety will
:36:08. > :36:10.be a different kind. The capacity to restore electricity and,
:36:11. > :36:16.incidentally, to use heat solutions as well is constantly growing.
:36:17. > :36:23.Technology is improving. Also we support an integrated UK market
:36:24. > :36:29.where Scotland can be the lungs of the UK in an integrated UK market.
:36:30. > :36:35.It makes sense with the best conditions for renewable energy,
:36:36. > :36:39.hydro and tidal, the largest tidal array in the world about to be put
:36:40. > :36:43.into the water, providing the funding is not pulled by the UK
:36:44. > :36:50.Government as it has done in other matters. We do need some gas CCF
:36:51. > :36:58.power stations. The problem with nuclear is it is incredibly
:36:59. > :37:05.expensive. It cost ?700,000 for gas. I am perplexed by the UK has put so
:37:06. > :37:11.much of its eggs in the Hinkley point basket when we see the same
:37:12. > :37:15.technology in Finland over shooting by threefold. The nuclear station at
:37:16. > :37:18.Hinkley is not come on stream for another ten years for the bidders
:37:19. > :37:27.are the answer to the energy security problems in the UK -- the
:37:28. > :37:31.UK faces right now. I would like to take a second to challenge the
:37:32. > :37:36.conventional wisdom that windmills are an eyesore. I think they
:37:37. > :37:42.complement a lot of Scotland's industrialised landscape. They are
:37:43. > :37:46.certainly no more an eyesore than coal and nuclear power and I think
:37:47. > :37:51.we should encourage investment in wind power, as we do currently. Good
:37:52. > :37:58.management and promote good management to make sure it works in
:37:59. > :38:04.the Scottish landscape. Would you compromise the rule landscape?
:38:05. > :38:08.Absolutely not. The Scottish Government says they should not be
:38:09. > :38:11.allowed in national parks, why is allowed in national parks, why is
:38:12. > :38:13.that? You work with allowed in national parks, why is
:38:14. > :39:04.energy sector, what are your allowed in national parks, why is
:39:05. > :39:07.demand. We need to reduce the energy we need. -- reducing demand. The
:39:08. > :40:23.gentleman at the back. we need. -- reducing demand. The
:40:24. > :40:28.stop it is wrecking the electricity supply we have at the moment, which
:40:29. > :40:34.is why the English government, the UK Government is stopping the
:40:35. > :40:39.subsidies. We have too much wind electricity in the grid already. It
:40:40. > :40:43.is all very well talking about the storage coming online and
:40:44. > :40:47.interconnected and all of that. This is fantastically expensive and wait
:40:48. > :40:53.in the future. We are facing an energy crisis and I feel none of the
:40:54. > :40:59.politicians are being realistic. Just a brief response on that point.
:41:00. > :41:03.It is a good thing we are exporting to England. England and Scotland
:41:04. > :41:07.have not been independent in electricity supply since 2005. When
:41:08. > :41:12.it crosses the border is does not know it is doing so, it is
:41:13. > :41:17.electricity. We need a balance. I would suggest in the short term the
:41:18. > :41:23.UK does need more gas power stations. There is no method despite
:41:24. > :41:26.the fact the UK Government has promised there will be gas power
:41:27. > :41:37.stations. There is no method to bring it forward. In Scotland, we
:41:38. > :41:43.have seen one close because there were extra transmission costs
:41:44. > :41:46.compared to them being located south of the border. That is a practical
:41:47. > :41:53.problem to creating the balance that we require. We need to move on.
:41:54. > :42:01.Another question from Alan Morrison. What would you like to ask?
:42:02. > :42:04.Recycling services vary in quality across the country. How can we
:42:05. > :42:10.ensure there is a more uniform service across the country? There
:42:11. > :42:13.has been a tremendous amount of faith attached to the recycling
:42:14. > :42:20.experimental study have travelled a great distance. The labour- Lib Dem
:42:21. > :42:25.government initially brought in the zero waste strategy. As such but we
:42:26. > :42:28.have seen a sea change in the way behaviours around the country in
:42:29. > :42:35.terms of picking things out day in and day out. It is a postcode
:42:36. > :42:40.lottery at the moment. The number of households recycling has fallen to
:42:41. > :42:44.its lowest level in seven years. I am sorry to hear that. There are
:42:45. > :42:48.examples of really good practice. There is a logistical problem
:42:49. > :42:55.because people who want to recycle do so in good faith. Sometimes they
:42:56. > :42:59.miss the collection time and the recycling bin sits out of doors and
:43:00. > :43:03.blows the contents over the street and that is the last time they do
:43:04. > :43:12.that. We need to tighten up and get better. The reverse vending machines
:43:13. > :43:18.can make recycling easier. If you are camping at a caravan site, there
:43:19. > :43:22.are vending machines where you can see a tangible payoff for your
:43:23. > :43:28.efforts to recycle. That is what we need to deploy if we're going change
:43:29. > :43:35.behaviours. Sarah Boyett, we see Glasgow City Council sending 65,000
:43:36. > :43:41.tonnes of waste to landfill. How can that be improved?
:43:42. > :43:48.A key issue is what is happening to local authority funding. They have
:43:49. > :43:53.got pressures of education and social care, and to do the radical
:43:54. > :43:57.stuff we need in terms of investment, infrastructure and
:43:58. > :44:02.education, to have investment means you are not chopping and changing
:44:03. > :44:07.every few months or years. That is crucial so we would get rid of the
:44:08. > :44:13.unfair council tax and replace it with a proper property tax. We would
:44:14. > :44:17.enable local authorities to put in the investment they need. Do you
:44:18. > :44:22.think local councils would, even with more money, make this a
:44:23. > :44:25.priority? They have done over the years but with more funding it would
:44:26. > :44:30.enable them to do this better and make sure they bring people with
:44:31. > :44:36.them. In our area, knowing what the rules are and when they are changed,
:44:37. > :44:41.that is one of the things that puts people off. People complain about
:44:42. > :44:45.it, but we need to avoid wasting materials, avoid putting things into
:44:46. > :44:50.landfill. We need to have the infrastructure to change the way we
:44:51. > :44:53.do this and that means local authorities working together and
:44:54. > :44:58.having the leadership from the Scottish Government, but the
:44:59. > :45:06.finances crucial. What is your point? I recognise the fact we
:45:07. > :45:11.should recycle as much as we physically can. Only the other week
:45:12. > :45:17.was my recycling refused because there was a plant pot in it. This
:45:18. > :45:27.goes beyond household. Oil is going to run out and we still have no
:45:28. > :45:32.alternative for pitch in for roads. There is some on other ways for
:45:33. > :45:37.reciting that haven't been thought of yet. How can we ensure there is
:45:38. > :45:44.more of that uniformed service of recycling across the country? I see
:45:45. > :45:50.good service locally near Aviemore and pretty comprehensive. But you
:45:51. > :45:54.agree it is patchy? It may be and we need to do more to harmonise it. I
:45:55. > :45:59.want to change the argument slightly because it is a big issue, not just
:46:00. > :46:10.about households and their own waste. Sanjeev Gupta has stated he
:46:11. > :46:15.wants to use scrap steel in Scotland and we have the opportunity to
:46:16. > :46:20.decommission oil rigs, over 30 years ago guaranteed supply of steel so
:46:21. > :46:25.there is an opportunity thereby to use the steel from the old oil rigs,
:46:26. > :46:38.decommission it and use it to maintain our steel industry. There
:46:39. > :46:43.is a bottling company, a major company in -- and there are lots of
:46:44. > :46:51.good examples across the board but we need to do more. This is just
:46:52. > :46:56.what we see, it is more than bottles and plastic bags. They're so much
:46:57. > :47:01.more that can be done to recycle. Why dig things out of the earth when
:47:02. > :47:07.we have them sitting in piles of rubbish already. What were the
:47:08. > :47:11.Conservatives do to improve recycling in Scotland? There's a lot
:47:12. > :47:16.of diversity in how we deal with recycling, and it is being done
:47:17. > :47:23.differently in different places. In Angus and SNP authority 's closing
:47:24. > :47:32.recycling centres. In another authority they have different bins,
:47:33. > :47:44.the bins themselves have become a litter on the street. The diversity
:47:45. > :47:48.of methods is adding cost. We need to consider again industrial sorting
:47:49. > :47:51.of waste rather than relying on household sorting in every
:47:52. > :47:56.circumstance because we need to recover whatever we can by whatever
:47:57. > :48:01.means we can. And I think we need to have the courage in Scotland to
:48:02. > :48:08.accept that energy recovery from waste is unacceptable way to recycle
:48:09. > :48:12.in many circumstances. Man at the back in the green T-shirt. I happen
:48:13. > :48:17.to agree to an extent with the gentleman from the Liberal Democrats
:48:18. > :48:24.but all parties have tended to focus on individuals and households. Let's
:48:25. > :48:29.look at town centres. My employer has more recycling bins in it than
:48:30. > :48:34.the entirety of the town I live in. The customers who go through my
:48:35. > :48:45.place of work have won four cups, liquids, plastics and general waste.
:48:46. > :48:54.The bin in my town centre has one and you put everything in it. Man at
:48:55. > :49:00.the front. I think we should broaden the conversation to be more about
:49:01. > :49:04.reducing, reusing, ideas like the circular economy and how we can
:49:05. > :49:10.implement that more widely. I agree with that. We have all been talking
:49:11. > :49:16.about waste recycling but the whole thing is about making it
:49:17. > :49:19.economically viable to repair goods, recycle and reuse goods. The
:49:20. > :49:24.community approach is important but we also need to change the way the
:49:25. > :49:28.economy works and we need a proper strategy from central government
:49:29. > :49:31.that will work with local authorities and companies to get the
:49:32. > :49:37.investment in that you have talked about on our streets and towns and
:49:38. > :49:45.cities so we join this up, and that needs investment. That is a key
:49:46. > :49:49.issue for local authorities to have the capacity to reinvest in reusing
:49:50. > :49:54.materials. I agree, I think the debate needs to broaden out to
:49:55. > :50:00.looking at preventative measures. The majority of waste comes out of
:50:01. > :50:06.the manufacturing point, not the end user point. We also need to engage
:50:07. > :50:10.in the culture we live in, a highly consumer led culture where we are
:50:11. > :50:15.taught me can consume way beyond our means. We should take a broader
:50:16. > :50:19.perspective on what culture each of the parties seeks to foster in
:50:20. > :50:25.relation to that. I don't think we will have time to go around everyone
:50:26. > :50:31.but Alex Cole Hamilton. The point about packaging is well made. I want
:50:32. > :50:36.to talk about the fact recycling levels are in decline, I am sorry to
:50:37. > :50:41.hear that but there is a need for engraving this in our culture. My
:50:42. > :50:49.little boy is four years old, he comes home every day and sings a
:50:50. > :50:54.song that they sing at the nursery. It is about recycling everyday. It
:50:55. > :50:58.is a real earworm but here's the recycling enforcer in our house and
:50:59. > :51:06.that gives me hope for the future that it is being instilled in our
:51:07. > :51:11.schools. If a lot of us are migrants to the recycling world because we
:51:12. > :51:17.didn't do it in the 1970s, our children have been born into a world
:51:18. > :51:23.where it is the expectation. It is incumbent on us to leave that to
:51:24. > :51:31.them. We have time for another question, this time from Olga
:51:32. > :51:34.Bloeman. The expansion of air travel is incompatible with a sustainable
:51:35. > :51:40.future, would the candidates agree with this statement? How would you
:51:41. > :51:51.tackle the growth of the aviation industry effectively? Do you think
:51:52. > :51:57.the expansion of air travel is compatible with a sustainable
:51:58. > :52:02.future? We need to improve the future of the aviation industry and
:52:03. > :52:08.get more efficiency for those who do travel. But do you think air travel
:52:09. > :52:13.is compatible with a sustainable future? In world terms it may be
:52:14. > :52:17.incompatible but if you look in the UK economy at Scotland's position
:52:18. > :52:21.within that, it is entirely consistent to suggest that more
:52:22. > :52:27.flights within Scotland may be consistent with that progress. That
:52:28. > :52:32.means taking opportunities to make sure international flights come
:52:33. > :52:38.directly to Scotland rather than feeder flights. And by changing the
:52:39. > :52:42.way we tax, changing the way we regulate, we can get the benefit of
:52:43. > :52:46.air travel here in Scotland without seeing an increase in the output, in
:52:47. > :52:53.fact seeing an increase in the sustainability of air travel. I just
:52:54. > :53:00.wanted to make the point that the consequences of air travel are not
:53:01. > :53:04.helped by the people in Scotland. It is people in Asia and Africa
:53:05. > :53:09.suffering right now from our decisions at not tackling climate
:53:10. > :53:17.change effectively. It is irresponsible of us to say it is OK
:53:18. > :53:21.in Scotland. We serve no one in Scotland or Africa by closing down
:53:22. > :53:31.the Scottish economy which is why politicians in Scotland should take
:53:32. > :53:36.responsible decisions. One of the early decisions the next Scottish
:53:37. > :53:41.parliament will make will be whether to cut passenger duty. We have a gap
:53:42. > :53:46.of ?100 billion over the lifetime of the next Scottish parliament if we
:53:47. > :53:50.do that. We need to make sure it doesn't happen. Scottish Labour
:53:51. > :53:58.would not do that, we would spend that money in investing, and we need
:53:59. > :54:02.to think about making air more competitive with rail because it is
:54:03. > :54:06.easier to get a flight to London than get a train and we need to make
:54:07. > :54:14.rail travel much more affordable for people. Access, we still need air
:54:15. > :54:18.flights, we are not saying we don't, but we also need alternatives,
:54:19. > :54:25.particularly within the UK for long-distance trains. Give us the
:54:26. > :54:28.opportunity to spend that money more wisely. It is a new power the
:54:29. > :54:39.Scottish Parliament has, we need to use it in the right way. Fergus
:54:40. > :54:47.Ewing, how would abolishing it affect the environment? If we want
:54:48. > :54:52.more people to come to Scotland, and as tourism Minister I certainly do,
:54:53. > :55:02.I would like there to be far more direct flights. If we reduce APD by
:55:03. > :55:14.one half, which we pledged to do, we have heard the chief executive of
:55:15. > :55:25.easyJet had 1.5 million passengers, most of them coming to Scotland. I
:55:26. > :55:29.don't accept there is a direct correlation between more emissions,
:55:30. > :55:36.it is just displacement between people choosing to go to other
:55:37. > :55:41.countries. Also the APD in the UK is the highest in Europe, and sadly we
:55:42. > :55:45.have the highest taxes and business rates on tourism. Why should we be
:55:46. > :55:56.singled out? The SNP believes that if we stimulate APD reductions, we
:55:57. > :56:02.will see fewer flights from the UK's congested airports. Ireland have
:56:03. > :56:05.done it and have gained in their tourism industry. We could boost a
:56:06. > :56:15.sector that in ten years could be the most important sector for the
:56:16. > :56:21.country. You are shaking your head. 1.5 million new flyers coming into
:56:22. > :56:25.Scotland. Our emissions from aviation account for 7% of emissions
:56:26. > :56:30.totally, that will increase dramatically with 1.5 million,
:56:31. > :56:33.that's tens of thousands of extra flights you are talking about.
:56:34. > :56:48.There's no question in the climate change challenge to which the answer
:56:49. > :56:59.is let's make it and cheaper to go by air travel. The man at the back.
:57:00. > :57:03.I know there is a lot of argument about APD and whether it should go
:57:04. > :57:10.up or down, but it seems to me that a more important issue really that
:57:11. > :57:14.might be harder to reach agreement internationally is that according to
:57:15. > :57:21.my understanding, aviation fuel isn't subject to the kind of taxes
:57:22. > :57:28.that are on petrol and diesel for our motor vehicles. Alex Johnstone.
:57:29. > :57:32.It is clearly the case that if we are to have a tax based system to
:57:33. > :57:38.discourage people from flying, it must be an international agreement
:57:39. > :57:41.that achieves that. The Scottish and UK economy simply shooting itself in
:57:42. > :57:46.the foot will not do anybody any good. I wonder what you make of what
:57:47. > :57:55.the panellists have been saying, Olga Bloeman. I think it is about
:57:56. > :58:00.taking responsibility and challenging the priority that is put
:58:01. > :58:03.on economic growth only. We have a responsibility to tackle climate
:58:04. > :58:11.change because it is already on the way. I think it is important taxing
:58:12. > :58:20.the aviation industry and supporting other alternatives. OK, and there we
:58:21. > :58:25.must end it. That is all we have time for this evening. Thanks to our
:58:26. > :58:29.panel, the audience and you at home for watching. I will be hosting our
:58:30. > :58:39.final election debate on Tuesday, this time on the subject of housing.
:58:40. > :58:41.You can apply to be in the audience on our online page but that is all
:58:42. > :58:46.for now. Goodbye.