:00:00. > :00:00.What lessons can Scotland learn from a woman who survived
:00:07. > :00:26.It's more than 70 years since America dropped
:00:27. > :00:30.Where does it leave the debate on Britain's nuclear submarine
:00:31. > :00:40.Alzheimer's dementia affects almost 100,000 Scots.
:00:41. > :00:43.We ask one woman who lost both her parents to the disease
:00:44. > :01:00.I started to think to myself there are many genetic links and most of
:01:01. > :01:03.the diseases, probably that is the case with Alzheimer's as well.
:01:04. > :01:05.After Jackie Stewart and Colin McRae, what can Scotland
:01:06. > :01:13.do to bring on the next generation of motorsport champions?
:01:14. > :01:15.It was the bomb that changed the world.
:01:16. > :01:17.In the summer of 1945, the Japanese city of Hiroshima
:01:18. > :01:19.was flattened by an American atomic bomb more powerful
:01:20. > :01:30.Today a Japanese woman who survived the bombing has visited Scotland,
:01:31. > :01:35.to call on politicians here to oppose the renewal of the Trident
:01:36. > :01:39.Our reporter David Allison caught up with Setsuko Thurlow, and he started
:01:40. > :01:54.by asking her what she remembers from that day.
:01:55. > :02:02.I saw southernly the blueish white flame in the window -- southernly. I
:02:03. > :02:09.felt that I was flying in the air, my body was floating. The glass from
:02:10. > :02:15.the detonation just flattened all of the building. I was buried under the
:02:16. > :02:19.collapsed building. And when I regained consciousness, I found
:02:20. > :02:24.myself in the total darkness and in silence. I knew that I was faced
:02:25. > :02:33.with death because I could not move my body. Then I started hearing my
:02:34. > :02:39.classmates around me, asking for God, asking for help, asking their
:02:40. > :02:46.mothers for help. All of a sudden, I heard a male voice. It told us to
:02:47. > :02:51.keep moving and pushing and kicking. He was trying to three years. You
:02:52. > :02:56.saw the sun breakthrough that opening, we moved towards it as
:02:57. > :03:01.quickly as possible. That is what I did in the total darkness. I just
:03:02. > :03:05.crawled to that direction. I'd escaped but the building was already
:03:06. > :03:07.on fire. When you got out, what did you see?
:03:08. > :03:10.Well, it happened at 8:15 in the morning but it was dark
:03:11. > :03:12.as twilight, perhaps because of the smoke and dust
:03:13. > :03:14.and particles rising up in that mushroom cloud.
:03:15. > :03:23.As my eyes got adjusted in the darkness, I started seeing
:03:24. > :03:36.I could not believe they were human beings, they just did not look
:03:37. > :03:46.like human beings, it was a procession of ghosts.
:03:47. > :03:57.Their hair was just standing up. They were bleeding, covered in
:03:58. > :04:04.blood. Bernd and blackened and swollen. Everybody raised their
:04:05. > :04:10.hands up like this and slowly suffering from the centre part of
:04:11. > :04:17.the city to where we wear and somewhere carrying their own
:04:18. > :04:26.eyeballs. And then some intestine is just burst open. The soldier said,
:04:27. > :04:32.you girls, the three of us who managed to escape, he told us to
:04:33. > :04:33.join the procession to escape. We did that as we stepped over the dead
:04:34. > :04:36.bodies. You are here in Scotland
:04:37. > :04:39.to take your message to politicians I emphasise the human perspective of
:04:40. > :04:49.these weapons. We have given so much attention
:04:50. > :04:52.to the doctrine of deterrents and how useful nuclear weapons are,
:04:53. > :04:55.therefore, we have to spend more money to have more nuclear weapons
:04:56. > :04:58.and to make us safer, that is nonsense
:04:59. > :05:16.from my perspective. It is how those terrible things kill
:05:17. > :05:20.human beings. You have said it is nonsense, but
:05:21. > :05:26.the reality is that nuclear weapons have kept the peace, not just in
:05:27. > :05:30.Europe, but Japan has been protected by the American umbrella from
:05:31. > :05:35.aggression from China or North Korea. It is a terrible thing, but
:05:36. > :05:40.it seems to work. We have been lucky for the past 70
:05:41. > :05:46.years. But we cannot keep pushing our luck. As long as those weapons
:05:47. > :05:49.exist, we keep competing, we are leading ourselves to catastrophe.
:05:50. > :05:51.What difference would it make if a country like Scotland didn't
:05:52. > :05:55.have nuclear weapons on its soil when we live in a world where China
:05:56. > :06:05.Pakistan has them, India has them, Israel almost certainly has them.
:06:06. > :06:08.Removing them from Faslane would literally be a small drop
:06:09. > :06:29.We have a greater chance that we will have that catastrophe, an
:06:30. > :06:34.accident. The majority of the Scottish people are against it. Why
:06:35. > :06:38.cannot the government pay some attention to the people's wishes?
:06:39. > :06:43.The same thing is happening in Japan. The majority of the people
:06:44. > :06:48.want to get rid of the nuclear weapons. But the government, in
:06:49. > :06:53.spite of the fact that we are the only victimised nation by the
:06:54. > :06:59.nuclear weapons, it has been doing what it has been doing because Japan
:07:00. > :07:06.has a military alliance with the biggest nuclear weapons states. As a
:07:07. > :07:12.member of such a military alliance, I think those states feel the
:07:13. > :07:14.obligation, to be loyal, and that is the unfortunate reality.
:07:15. > :07:18.Somehow, we have the notion that by having the nuclear weapons we can
:07:19. > :07:21.secure our security, but I think there are other ways
:07:22. > :07:30.of achieving that security rather than having that indiscriminate
:07:31. > :07:44.It is not a bomb, it is a device for mass murder.
:07:45. > :07:48.Setsuko Thurlow, thank you very much indeed.
:07:49. > :07:54.Thank you. It's shocking to hear that early
:07:55. > :07:57.signs of Alzheimer's disease are often present for up to 20 years
:07:58. > :07:59.before a person So how can we treat such
:08:00. > :08:05.a mysterious condition? A major European study aims to find
:08:06. > :08:08.ways to halt the onset of Alzheimer's, and it has
:08:09. > :08:10.recruited its first participant. She's Julie Duffus from
:08:11. > :08:11.Tillicoultry. Both her parents suffered
:08:12. > :08:13.from Alzheimer's. Our reporter Andrew Black
:08:14. > :08:28.met with her today. Julie Duffus has many fond memories
:08:29. > :08:34.of her parents, Bert and Beryl. Towards the end of their lives,
:08:35. > :08:38.there were difficult times. Both are diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease,
:08:39. > :08:41.the most common cause of dementia. Julie recalled the way that the
:08:42. > :08:47.deceased or cold. I did not see what was happening on
:08:48. > :08:51.a day-to-day basis with my mother. But I would speak to are on the
:08:52. > :08:54.phone and she would constantly repeat the same things over and over
:08:55. > :09:04.again. You knew that something was going on. My mother died in 2005.
:09:05. > :09:12.Four years later, my father started to suffer as well. That was
:09:13. > :09:18.obviously a horrible shock. His decline was very rapid. He only
:09:19. > :09:25.lived two and a half years after diagnosis. He didn't recognise
:09:26. > :09:33.anybody for the last year. He was a very gentle man in all senses of the
:09:34. > :09:37.word, but he began to have violent outbursts, a complete change of
:09:38. > :09:43.personality. It was distressing to watch. It must have been distressing
:09:44. > :09:49.for him as well. So, it is a horrible disease.
:09:50. > :09:52.Now, Julie wants to help scientists find better ways of fighting
:09:53. > :09:58.Alzheimer's disease and has become the first person to sign up to a
:09:59. > :10:01.major new European study, jointly led by Edinburgh University, which
:10:02. > :10:05.aims to do exactly that. She is the very, very first person
:10:06. > :10:09.across Europe to be involved in this ground breaking study. There will be
:10:10. > :10:14.several thousand other people like her over the next two years who will
:10:15. > :10:19.contribute as well. She will be doing memory tests, having very
:10:20. > :10:24.detailed brain scanning, she will be giving blood samples, she will be
:10:25. > :10:27.putting in her genetic code, and it is only through all of that
:10:28. > :10:30.information together we can build up these models of what is happening in
:10:31. > :10:36.the brain, decades before the disease develops. In doing so, we
:10:37. > :10:39.can sensibly develop drugs to try to affect processes which may hopefully
:10:40. > :10:42.prevent dementia and the longer term.
:10:43. > :10:47.The study has been warmly welcomed by Julie Duffus, who wanders Monday
:10:48. > :10:50.if she herself will be diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease.
:10:51. > :10:58.I believe that there are genetic links. -- wonders one day. It is
:10:59. > :11:03.something that has worried me for some years. You know that you have
:11:04. > :11:08.two parents with it and you start to think to yourself, there are genetic
:11:09. > :11:15.links and many other diseases, probably Alzheimer's as well. That
:11:16. > :11:19.is something that has been on my mind for quite a few years.
:11:20. > :11:29.Obviously, as I have got into middle age, my memory has become poorer. So
:11:30. > :11:33.it is a concern for me. There is currently no cure for
:11:34. > :11:36.Alzheimer's, but it did so but studies like the one involving Julie
:11:37. > :11:42.will find better ways of diagnosing the disease and even perhaps
:11:43. > :11:43.prevented from ever happening. -- prevent it.
:11:44. > :11:46.Joining me now from our Edinburgh studio is Professor June Andrews,
:11:47. > :11:50.author of Dementia: The One-Stop Guide.
:11:51. > :11:57.Thank you for joining us. Alzheimer's, it is a mysterious
:11:58. > :12:00.condition, what do we need to find out to stop it affecting so many
:12:01. > :12:04.people like Julie's payments? The first thing I must say is that I
:12:05. > :12:12.am really sorry about Julie's situation. Because there is a form
:12:13. > :12:16.of dementia, a form of Alzheimer's, which is inherited, we know that it
:12:17. > :12:20.is inherited, but that generally happens too much younger people. To
:12:21. > :12:24.all the people who develop dementia, there seem to be quite a lot of
:12:25. > :12:27.complex Divin things that cause that and that is why the research is very
:12:28. > :12:32.difficult. What could it be? Lifestyle? The
:12:33. > :12:35.Scottish environment, what is going on?
:12:36. > :12:39.The number of people with dementia in Scotland is not greater than in
:12:40. > :12:43.any other developed country and we know that the changes that take
:12:44. > :12:46.place in the brain happen long before any symptoms occur, that is
:12:47. > :12:51.what the researchers are looking for. And sometimes you find that
:12:52. > :12:55.even when someone has passed away, and you do a postmortem on their
:12:56. > :12:58.brain, you find that they have some of those Alzheimer's type changes
:12:59. > :13:01.but they have never had any symptoms, that is what makes it
:13:02. > :13:06.really difficult to do research on this. We know that even if someone
:13:07. > :13:10.has the changes in the brain, there are lifestyle changes that can help
:13:11. > :13:14.to keep the symptoms at a low level or to delay them for longer. A
:13:15. > :13:23.number of years ago I met a woman in America and sadly her father had had
:13:24. > :13:26.the genetic form of Alzheimer's disease, and she and all her
:13:27. > :13:28.brothers and sisters were all affected. So families that do have
:13:29. > :13:31.the genetic form usually are very well aware of it, so I hope that
:13:32. > :13:35.middle-aged ladies that have memory loss or difficulty with their
:13:36. > :13:39.memory, realise that in most cases that is not the dementia disease
:13:40. > :13:43.that is causing it. Both of Julie's parents were
:13:44. > :13:48.affected by it, but do we know by Alzheimer's seems to affect more
:13:49. > :13:51.women than men? Actually, I do not know why it seems
:13:52. > :13:57.to affect more women than men. At one point, we got that because more
:13:58. > :14:01.women lived to be older and because the older you are the likely urge
:14:02. > :14:06.you are to have dementia, but that was the reason for it, but dementia
:14:07. > :14:09.can because by either Alzheimer's disease or other diseases, and one
:14:10. > :14:18.of the common diseases, the second most common disease that causes
:14:19. > :14:20.dementia is a vascular disease. Recently we have noticed that with
:14:21. > :14:23.improving vascular health because people are getting fatter, they are
:14:24. > :14:26.having good medication for blood pressure and similar conditions, we
:14:27. > :14:31.found that there is a suggestion that perhaps vascular dementia is
:14:32. > :14:35.not increasing as fast as he would have thought. So, there are things
:14:36. > :14:38.you can do to stay well. There are things you can do to stay well even
:14:39. > :14:42.if you have been affected, but the absolute cos of it remains a mystery
:14:43. > :14:46.and that is why it is worth doing these great big long population
:14:47. > :14:50.studies such as the one started at the University of Edinburgh. We must
:14:51. > :14:53.try very hard earlier to find out what it is that is causing the
:14:54. > :14:58.problem. Research in the United States
:14:59. > :15:02.reaches the conclusion that Alzheimer's should be called type
:15:03. > :15:06.three diabetes, that it is caused by resistance to insulin in the brain.
:15:07. > :15:10.Are those researchers on the right lines?
:15:11. > :15:15.There is a good amount of research which gives early indications of
:15:16. > :15:18.something that might be useful and so, I think people are sometimes
:15:19. > :15:25.tormented by the kind of research that they see printed in the papers,
:15:26. > :15:34.one day it is because you are too fat, sometimes because you are too
:15:35. > :15:37.thin. I saw one recently that said you are more likely to have
:15:38. > :15:39.Alzheimer's if you have a certain skin disease. These types of
:15:40. > :15:41.research when reported, they make people feel that they might have
:15:42. > :15:44.come to the one solution reason for it. I think it is because it is so
:15:45. > :15:47.complex that it is rubbing important we do not get too excited about one
:15:48. > :15:51.theory as it happens. A very broad study like the Edinburgh one is the
:15:52. > :15:55.one that will likely give us what we need to know. What everyone wants to
:15:56. > :15:59.know is will I get it because my parents got it? The answer is
:16:00. > :16:05.probably not. They also want to know if there is something they can do to
:16:06. > :16:08.avoid getting it, the answer is, yes, you can, there are lots of
:16:09. > :16:11.things to do to delay the symptoms or avoid getting it in the first
:16:12. > :16:15.place. What more can the NHS do without all
:16:16. > :16:20.the information at its disposal, what can it do to treat people and
:16:21. > :16:24.prevent people from becoming ill in the first place?
:16:25. > :16:28.The NHS in Scotland is doing welcomed with other parts of the
:16:29. > :16:32.world. The first most important thing is to be identified at the
:16:33. > :16:36.point where you probably have a problem, that is why the diagnosis
:16:37. > :16:40.level is done by GPs is truly in Scotland. At that point in Scotland
:16:41. > :16:45.people have a guaranteed here of post-diagnostic support. Sometimes
:16:46. > :16:49.that is too soon for people, but the fact that that support is there is
:16:50. > :16:54.useful. We have Alzheimer's Scotland that helps people with information
:16:55. > :16:58.and advice. I think the NHS is doing well but it probably needs to work
:16:59. > :17:01.harder on acute hospitals, where sometimes with dementia get much
:17:02. > :17:05.worse for reasons that are avoidable.
:17:06. > :17:06.We must leave it there, Professor June Andrews, thank you very much
:17:07. > :17:09.indeed. Now, Sir Jackie Stewart,
:17:10. > :17:11.Jim Clark, Colin McRae, Dario Franchitti -
:17:12. > :17:12.just some of Scotland's Now efforts are under way
:17:13. > :17:16.to encourage more young people into the sport and continue
:17:17. > :17:30.Scotland's long tradition Per capita we are certainly leading
:17:31. > :17:34.the world with the successes, whether in Rally driving, motor
:17:35. > :17:38.bikes as well as cards, two wheels as were asked for reels. We have to
:17:39. > :17:40.build that further if we are to get another generation of topline racing
:17:41. > :17:41.drivers. So how can Scotland encourage more
:17:42. > :17:44.young people into motorsport? I've been hearing from the former
:17:45. > :17:46.British Rally champion Jimmy McRae and Alastair McNaughton
:17:47. > :18:00.from the Scottish Auto Cycle Union. Tell us about your plans. What do
:18:01. > :18:05.you hope to achieve? The basic plan is to broaden the baseline
:18:06. > :18:13.participation levels in motor sport. That is all forms, Rally, motor
:18:14. > :18:17.cycle, track, off-road, on road, whatever. The plan is to broaden
:18:18. > :18:20.that, not just with participation of the sport itself but within
:18:21. > :18:26.officials, Marshalls, all the imported people that make an event
:18:27. > :18:30.happen. And really to do that we are focusing on helping clubs and
:18:31. > :18:36.looking very much at things like the mass gleam of people who are nicely
:18:37. > :18:41.held in place is called universities. -- the mass volume of
:18:42. > :18:45.people. Try to bring them in, encourage motor sport clubs in
:18:46. > :18:49.universities. That has not done very much before. A bit of karting, but
:18:50. > :18:56.very little larger scale motor sport. Probably because it is viewed
:18:57. > :19:02.as being expensive. So the aim is to attract more people in. Jimmy, I
:19:03. > :19:07.wonder, you and your family show that Scotland can produce champions.
:19:08. > :19:13.But your success was very much family success. How do you go beyond
:19:14. > :19:17.that? How do you go about creating a situation in Scotland where it is
:19:18. > :19:25.individuals coming in fresh to the sport? I think it is great what has
:19:26. > :19:30.happened today, the funding, because there are people out there with
:19:31. > :19:35.loads of talent, young guys with no money, and hopefully with the
:19:36. > :19:38.correct funding, not going direct to them but getting other big companies
:19:39. > :19:45.involved, will bring a bit more money into the sport, bringing money
:19:46. > :19:49.into the sport will get more coverage. More coverage, it gets
:19:50. > :19:57.more popular. And I think it is going to be good, what is happening.
:19:58. > :20:02.But I wonder, the recipe for success, in so many sports, involves
:20:03. > :20:05.very supportive parents, because they provide the impetus and they
:20:06. > :20:11.provide the wraparound care, the support that kids and junctures need
:20:12. > :20:15.to get on in sport. -- and youngsters. What more do we need?
:20:16. > :20:19.What more can we do to encourage those individuals who don't have
:20:20. > :20:25.that? I think basically what we are seeing here at the moment is try to
:20:26. > :20:29.create a lot more interest, get young people in at an early age, and
:20:30. > :20:35.basically if you get the men at an early age and they show potential,
:20:36. > :20:40.that will attract sponsors or companies that are willing to get
:20:41. > :20:48.involved. -- if you attract them in at an early age. The likes of Susie
:20:49. > :20:52.will have shown that Scottish women can thrive in this arena. If there
:20:53. > :21:01.is scope for encouraging more women to get involved? Of course. We had a
:21:02. > :21:08.world champion rally driver, and it would be nice to see another women
:21:09. > :21:15.doing the same. It is definitely open to girls as well as boys.
:21:16. > :21:20.Alistair, there are about 300 is into this initiative. For a very
:21:21. > :21:27.rich sport, it doesn't seem a huge amount. -- ?350,000. Will it make a
:21:28. > :21:31.difference? The benefit it will produce is that they can be the Big
:21:32. > :21:34.Brother taking them along, introducing them to this family
:21:35. > :21:38.called motor sport, bringing them into a club who will take them by
:21:39. > :21:42.the hand and show them what they can do. If they want to marshal
:21:43. > :21:47.initially, which is basically cost neutral, they can come along and do
:21:48. > :21:51.some marshalling, some observing our trials, whatever they want to do. If
:21:52. > :21:56.they want to get involved in bikes, then initially we will stick them on
:21:57. > :22:05.a bike and buy them have a go, stick them in a car and let them have a
:22:06. > :22:08.go. Once they have done that, had a couple of free shots, it is then
:22:09. > :22:15.time for them to invest in going forward. We have had lots of success
:22:16. > :22:20.in the past, lots of champions. When will we have the next batch of
:22:21. > :22:23.champions? That is difficult to say, but I think one of the good things
:22:24. > :22:29.in Rally for us at the moment is we are going out of the junior
:22:30. > :22:34.programme where 14-year-olds can jump in a rally car, off public
:22:35. > :22:38.roads, on private roads. When you go there and see 18 or 20 young
:22:39. > :22:48.14-year-olds, girls and boys, and you see the enthusiasm and what they
:22:49. > :22:51.can do with the 1000 cc car, then we might not wait too long. We have to
:22:52. > :22:54.leave it there. Thank you very much. With me now to discuss some
:22:55. > :22:57.of the day's news are David Leask, who's chief reporter with
:22:58. > :22:59.the Herald, and Kirstein Rummery, who's Professor of Social Policy
:23:00. > :23:05.at Stirling University. Thanks very much for joining us. At
:23:06. > :23:09.the top of the programme we heard from Setsuko Thurlow who survived
:23:10. > :23:14.the Hiroshima bombing. Campaigning here against the renewal of Trident.
:23:15. > :23:17.What sort of impact, Kerstin, do you think the comments might have on
:23:18. > :23:22.what is an ongoing debate? It would be nice if her comments brought back
:23:23. > :23:26.the human face to this kind of debate, because Trident has very
:23:27. > :23:30.often been used as a political football, and its symbolism in terms
:23:31. > :23:34.of the Scottish versus the rest of the UK identity and also the way in
:23:35. > :23:39.which it was used in the independent referendum to move funding to their
:23:40. > :23:47.ends not bombs kind of thing. Even the concerns about the safety all
:23:48. > :23:53.set aside the fact we are dealing with weapons of mass structure and
:23:54. > :23:57.here. And David, weapons of mass of structuring, and yet there are
:23:58. > :24:02.plenty of people here who want to keep nuclear weapons for national
:24:03. > :24:05.security. -- weapons of mass destruction. Is there any sign of
:24:06. > :24:11.the country moving towards being anti nuclear? I think in Scotland
:24:12. > :24:17.there is said to be a consensus against Trident. Whether there is, I
:24:18. > :24:22.don't know. In many ways I think we still view nuclear weapons in a
:24:23. > :24:25.rather old-fashioned way. We still think of them as being a nation
:24:26. > :24:28.state with a big bomb to defend themselves, and that is quite a
:24:29. > :24:33.compelling narrative, but I'm not sure it is very useful when our
:24:34. > :24:36.security really relies on the logicians we have with our allies
:24:37. > :24:40.and our enemies. Our security is something we have to build
:24:41. > :24:44.transnational, and that also should be a question when we decide what to
:24:45. > :24:48.do with nuclear weapons. It is quite a thought, when you see that footage
:24:49. > :24:51.from the end of the Second World War which claimed tens of billions of
:24:52. > :24:55.lives. It was only right at the end of that appalling process of
:24:56. > :24:59.slaughter that people used nuclear weapons. It makes you wonder how
:25:00. > :25:05.much political innovations there would ever be about using nuclear
:25:06. > :25:13.weapons nowadays. -- political inhibition. I am a child of the Cold
:25:14. > :25:16.War, and I was terrified of nuclear weapons. What is interesting though
:25:17. > :25:24.is that we have almost not learned the lessons of the past, because we
:25:25. > :25:28.do not treat them as a bomber, and what advisers as the UK is not any
:25:29. > :25:34.kind of meaningful deterrent against attack. It buys us a seat on the UN
:25:35. > :25:38.security council so that we get the chance to say we are a nuclear power
:25:39. > :25:40.on the world stage without really taking some kind of political
:25:41. > :25:45.responsibility for what that actually means. Let's move onto the
:25:46. > :25:52.next topic, the EU referendum. The Scottish election is out of the
:25:53. > :26:02.road, David, and not long now. Today Iain Duncan Smith arguing that the
:26:03. > :26:07.European Union as a force for social injustice. What do you make of this
:26:08. > :26:12.latest line of attack? I find it slightly funny. Am I allowed to say
:26:13. > :26:14.that? I once in the way that reporters do followed Ian Duncan
:26:15. > :26:18.Smith around the East End of Glasgow, and he was said to have
:26:19. > :26:22.discovered poverty. I'm sure his views are genuine enough, but not
:26:23. > :26:26.sure whether his analysis is very clever on these matters. What
:26:27. > :26:31.surprises is this being a tactic being pursued on the right of
:26:32. > :26:33.politics, someone who is rightly or wrongly associated with austerity
:26:34. > :26:38.and cutbacks to the services. Somehow he is going to sell Britain
:26:39. > :26:42.outside the European Union as one of social justice I don't know. What
:26:43. > :26:46.it's worth, I'm surprised there hasn't been more of a left attack on
:26:47. > :26:51.the EU. For those of us hold us to remember the 1980s, the weather was
:26:52. > :26:58.at the forefront of anti-sentiment, I was expecting something that
:26:59. > :27:02.hasn't happened yet. He is aiming this method squarely at poorer
:27:03. > :27:07.voters. I just wonder how receptive and audience might they be? I think
:27:08. > :27:12.when you look at the arguments he is trying to put forward, he is trying
:27:13. > :27:15.to put social justice argument, arguably trying to appeal to those
:27:16. > :27:20.left voters that David was talking about. But if you look at the way in
:27:21. > :27:26.which the different arms of the campaign have weighed up, on the
:27:27. > :27:33.Remains side, you have quite weighty bodies, economists, the Prime
:27:34. > :27:37.Minister, entire political parties, and then on the Believed side, you
:27:38. > :27:43.have a lot of very charismatic personalities like Iain Duncan
:27:44. > :27:47.Smith, Nigel Farage. They are very much penning that all those
:27:48. > :27:53.individual voices. What makes me worry about that is that people are
:27:54. > :27:59.voting for her against those individual personalities instead of
:28:00. > :28:01.looking behind those faces for the substantial arguments. If the
:28:02. > :28:06.antiestablishment theme that Iain Duncan Smith is now putting forward,
:28:07. > :28:12.is that going to be key to whether this referendum is one boss? I
:28:13. > :28:25.suspect it will be. -- is one robust? And the only game I think we
:28:26. > :28:35.have got is to play the anti-antiestablishment card. People
:28:36. > :28:42.think these are antiestablishment figures, but Boris Johnson,
:28:43. > :28:44.antiestablishment? And no. That is all we have got time for. Thank you
:28:45. > :28:46.very much for joining us. Andrew's back with you tomorrow,
:28:47. > :28:54.so join him then, usual time. From all of us here, have a very
:28:55. > :29:03.good night. Your partner would be in bed on the
:29:04. > :29:09.other side of the world and would be able to hear your heartbeat.
:29:10. > :29:11.HEART BEATS we are doing to one other
:29:12. > :29:16.through technology. I am a cyborg
:29:17. > :29:21.for the rest of my life and I'm OK with that,
:29:22. > :29:23.because it gave me a life. What is our relationship
:29:24. > :29:28.with the digital world? Join me, Aleks Krotoski, for
:29:29. > :29:33.The Digital Human, on BBC Radio 4.