19/05/2016

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:00:00. > :00:09.The Scottish government mess that could cost

:00:10. > :00:37.Thousands of farmers are out of pocket because of

:00:38. > :00:39.a poorly-managed IT system, according to Audit Scotland.

:00:40. > :00:41.And with five weeks to go til the EU referendum,

:00:42. > :00:54.we hear from the expat Scots living in Spain.

:00:55. > :00:57.Yesterday, the Rural Affairs Secretary Richard

:00:58. > :01:02.Today, an Audit Scotland report slammed Scottish

:01:03. > :01:06.government mismanagement of EU subsidies to farmers.

:01:07. > :01:10.It couldn't have been more scathing about the litany of failure.

:01:11. > :01:15.A new IT system months behind schedule and so over budget it may

:01:16. > :01:19.actually run out of money before the end of the payment programme.

:01:20. > :01:22.In a moment we'll hear from the Deputy First

:01:23. > :01:30.But first, our Business Correspondent, David Henderson.

:01:31. > :01:38.Farmers the length and breadth of Scotland, from there to Lockerbie,

:01:39. > :01:42.have had it difficult year. European subsidies have been delayed because

:01:43. > :01:47.of problems with the new farm payment scheme. If you to getting

:01:48. > :01:51.paid in December and you do not get that until April or May in some

:01:52. > :01:56.cases, some people have not yet received anything, it is quite

:01:57. > :02:01.stressful that way. If farmers do not get paid the whole supply chain

:02:02. > :02:05.does not get paid and outside work does not happen and fences did not

:02:06. > :02:12.get sorted, the whole infrastructure of the rural community has virtually

:02:13. > :02:14.ground to a halt. At this office in Edinburgh, the Scottish government

:02:15. > :02:21.has developed a computer system to process those payments. More than 18

:02:22. > :02:28.months ago, this man said it began to go badly wrong. I sent an e-mail

:02:29. > :02:32.immediately to Nicola Sturgeon and Richard Lochhead, the agricultural

:02:33. > :02:38.Minister, to say, are you aware of what is going on? John Dunning was

:02:39. > :02:41.working on the project and he says dozens of competent workers are

:02:42. > :02:45.being laid off for no apparent reason and he says when he blew the

:02:46. > :02:51.whistle, some inside the team were not impressed. The main thing I

:02:52. > :02:58.received about why it was pressure to shut up. They wanted this silent.

:02:59. > :03:03.They wanted me on one side and kept quiet. Among the issues he says he

:03:04. > :03:09.raised concerns about a conflict-of-interest involving a

:03:10. > :03:12.contract on the programme. He became delivery director of the major role

:03:13. > :03:17.in recruiting staff but he also supplied workers to the project

:03:18. > :03:23.through his own company. And accounts seen by the BBC show that

:03:24. > :03:30.his assets have soared by about ?3 million in one year. It is always

:03:31. > :03:36.important when public money is used and conflicts need to be recognised

:03:37. > :03:39.as quickly as possible and the conflict was known about by the

:03:40. > :03:43.safeguards were not strong enough to make sure the person could not

:03:44. > :03:47.influence recruitment decisions. Farmers leaders are not impressed,

:03:48. > :03:51.they want urgent action from the new Scottish government. With Richard

:03:52. > :03:54.Lochhead stepping down as agriculture Secretary, his

:03:55. > :03:58.successor, Fergus Ewing, as a challenge. To put things right.

:03:59. > :04:02.Well, no-one from the Scottish Government was available to come

:04:03. > :04:04.on the programme, but earlier today our reporter Andrew Black

:04:05. > :04:12.managed to speak to the Deputy First Minister.

:04:13. > :04:17.Audit Scotland has a Dead Fred problems with the way this scheme

:04:18. > :04:21.operates and what is the government response? The government has worked

:04:22. > :04:26.hard to address these issues given the fact that we had to undertake

:04:27. > :04:31.but obligation to the European Union every complex reform of the support

:04:32. > :04:34.system. When it became clear that we were not going to be able to make

:04:35. > :04:39.all those payments through the computer system, we have 82% made

:04:40. > :04:42.through the system, we put in place other schemes to support farmers and

:04:43. > :04:48.provide the necessary assistance they required at a very challenging

:04:49. > :04:51.time. One of the things the report identified was a significant failure

:04:52. > :04:55.to deal with a major conflict-of-interest within the

:04:56. > :05:02.management of the programme. How do you respond? We identified, thanks

:05:03. > :05:06.to the advice of a whistle-blower, that there was this potential

:05:07. > :05:09.conflict of interest and be put in place revised arrangements to make

:05:10. > :05:14.sure that did not arise and that conflict of interest was addressed.

:05:15. > :05:18.Whenever we were made aware of this issue, we acted to remedy that

:05:19. > :05:21.issue. The report makes clear that the problem was brought to the

:05:22. > :05:25.attention of the government in 2014 by a whistle-blower three months,

:05:26. > :05:32.less than three months before the Scottish government did anything.

:05:33. > :05:36.Why so slow? The government got that information and we acted upon it to

:05:37. > :05:40.put arrangements in place to tackle the circumstances that arose. We put

:05:41. > :05:44.in place different management arrangements to address that this

:05:45. > :05:48.year and that was in response to the helpful advice given to us by a

:05:49. > :05:51.whistle-blower on this case. The fundamental issue is about the

:05:52. > :05:56.requirements that are placed on contractors which are not as

:05:57. > :06:00.obligatory as the obligations we put on our staff and that is an issue

:06:01. > :06:02.the government asked to investigate and consider.

:06:03. > :06:04.John Swinney speaking to Andrew Black earlier today.

:06:05. > :06:06.Listening to that in our Aberdeen studio is the newly-elected

:06:07. > :06:08.Conservative MSP, Peter Chapman, who was today announced

:06:09. > :06:12.as the party's rural economy spokesman.

:06:13. > :06:23.Good evening. First, on that issue of the conflict-of-interest, do you

:06:24. > :06:28.accept that there was little they could have done differently because

:06:29. > :06:35.of the rules governing contractors? I certainly do not accept that. This

:06:36. > :06:38.is a shocking report and this conflict-of-interest is one of the

:06:39. > :06:45.worst parts of the report. When the first whistle-blower drew attention

:06:46. > :06:48.to what was going on, it was several months before anything happened

:06:49. > :06:52.regarding Best Director and he was still supplying staff months after

:06:53. > :06:59.the whistle was blown. The staff that he was playing or on inflated

:07:00. > :07:05.wages, well above the level set for the structure within this programme.

:07:06. > :07:10.There is a scandal going on and it is a litany of failures. One of the

:07:11. > :07:16.worst reports that we have ever seen in Scotland. An absolutely shocking

:07:17. > :07:19.report. A litany of failures, not just the conflict-of-interest, there

:07:20. > :07:24.was mismanagement, there was infighting between those teams, it

:07:25. > :07:30.was a programme that was completely out of control for many months and

:07:31. > :07:34.it would appear that Richard Lochhead and the SNP government did

:07:35. > :07:39.very little over a long period of time while this was going on to

:07:40. > :07:44.address the problems. Do you think the blame lies at the door of

:07:45. > :07:50.Richard Lochhead? Absolutely, he was in charge, the buck stops with him

:07:51. > :07:56.and it is a disgrace what has happened here. On the broader point

:07:57. > :08:00.of these late payments, John Swinney says as soon as it became clear they

:08:01. > :08:03.were going to be late, they acted swiftly to provide financial

:08:04. > :08:08.assistance. Do you think they should have done more? Of course they

:08:09. > :08:13.should have. They did not act swiftly. The farming industry

:08:14. > :08:17.expected the bulk of payments to be made in December and Richard

:08:18. > :08:22.Lochhead promised the bulk of them would be made in December but when

:08:23. > :08:27.we got to April and were in me, and still some farmers have received

:08:28. > :08:30.very little or nothing, and none of the farmers have received more than

:08:31. > :08:37.80% of the money they are due. There is a huge issue, there is a mess to

:08:38. > :08:40.be sorted out. It is not just Scotland's struggling with these

:08:41. > :08:44.payments, is it? Isn't the real issue the complexity of what has

:08:45. > :08:52.been asked of governments by the European Union? Not at all. It has

:08:53. > :08:55.nothing to do with the complexity. This report says nothing about the

:08:56. > :09:01.complexity. It highlights the shortcomings within the system, the

:09:02. > :09:04.mismanagement within the system and it says nothing about the

:09:05. > :09:08.complexity. The complexity was agreed between the industry and

:09:09. > :09:13.government more than two years ago. There was ample time to put in place

:09:14. > :09:18.a system to pay the money if the system had been managed properly. We

:09:19. > :09:21.should have been no problems, there was ample time but there has been a

:09:22. > :09:23.litany of failures throughout the whole thing. We must leave it. Thank

:09:24. > :09:25.you. In just five weeks the UK will vote

:09:26. > :09:28.whether to leave or remain Much of the debate so far has been

:09:29. > :09:34.about migration into the UK. But what about the estimated

:09:35. > :09:37.two million UK citizens who live As many as one million

:09:38. > :09:43.in Spain alone. We sent our reporter, Ian Hamilton,

:09:44. > :09:47.to the Med to take the temperature on how a potential Brexit

:09:48. > :10:05.may impact them. I have come to Spain on the Costa

:10:06. > :10:09.Del Sol... An area that has been invaded throughout history by

:10:10. > :10:16.different people. From the Roman and Byzantine empires too busy Goths and

:10:17. > :10:22.Arabs. The lead, as were the British. They started to arrive in

:10:23. > :10:27.the 1960s. -- be late comers. To enjoy a cheap lifestyle in the

:10:28. > :10:32.wonderful climate of the South of Spain. I have come to the coast of

:10:33. > :10:36.poor Billy Dodds, synonymous with tourism in the 1970s and 80s, it

:10:37. > :10:45.seems to be thriving today. Kennedy of people enjoying the sunshine. --

:10:46. > :10:53.tourmaline us. Talk radio Europe... Giles Brown. It is exactly five

:10:54. > :10:57.minutes past... Here in the largest radio language -- Hindu shrine which

:10:58. > :11:04.radio station in Spain, it is a hot topic. The issue has dominated the

:11:05. > :11:09.shows that we do, the expat community, very large, the biggest

:11:10. > :11:14.single issue and as the British Ambassador said, the biggest issue

:11:15. > :11:19.that perhaps Britain has faced in 150 years and down here on the

:11:20. > :11:29.coast, with the huge expat publishing, it is dominating their

:11:30. > :11:33.thoughts. There are around 400,000 registered Britons living in Spain

:11:34. > :11:40.other could be as many as 1 million unofficially. They originally come

:11:41. > :11:48.here for the weather. This is a property just outside Fuengirola.

:11:49. > :11:53.After the economic crash of 2008, any British residents of Spain find

:11:54. > :11:57.themselves in negative equity. I met an estate agent, originally from

:11:58. > :12:04.Glasgow, who is based on the Costa Del Sol. The Spanish in general are

:12:05. > :12:10.happy to have us. And we raise a lot of money over here. We are the

:12:11. > :12:17.biggest buyers, still, in Spain and I think it is about 22% of the sales

:12:18. > :12:22.to foreign buyers in Spain that from British people. The people down here

:12:23. > :12:24.are spending a lot of money, whether they are here all year round whether

:12:25. > :12:41.these are holiday homes. They get around 5 million visitors

:12:42. > :12:47.here every year in this town. The wealthy residents of this district

:12:48. > :12:51.may not have concerns about Brexit, but as three quarters of the British

:12:52. > :13:01.people living in Spain think, health care is the big thing that people

:13:02. > :13:04.think about in Spain. In a reciprocal agreement with the UK,

:13:05. > :13:11.they get free treatment, but should the UK believe the EU this may not

:13:12. > :13:15.continue. Most of my friends are 70 and above, some of them in the 90s,

:13:16. > :13:22.and there would be an awful lot of people going back to the UK wanting

:13:23. > :13:28.health care, wanting homes. My husband has got... He has had a

:13:29. > :13:35.stroke, has leukaemia, so he is getting all that treatment free. He

:13:36. > :13:41.pays the minimum for prescriptions. All that with having to be paid for

:13:42. > :13:45.and taken up by the National health. All of us pensioners over here can

:13:46. > :13:49.use the Spanish national health, the way that Spanish people can in the

:13:50. > :13:54.UK. We would lose all those benefits. We get the same benefits

:13:55. > :14:00.as an expat trade in the UK. Bus passes, free travel, health service

:14:01. > :14:04.and social care, as well. We would lose all of that. The assumption is

:14:05. > :14:09.that if you live in Spain you have loads of money. You happened. I

:14:10. > :14:15.pension doesn't even pay my rent. Several people told us that it was

:14:16. > :14:19.-- they wouldn't differently if they lived in the UK. I don't feel

:14:20. > :14:25.comfortable with all this immigration, the fact that they are

:14:26. > :14:28.thinking of including Turkey. That sort of thing. So either British

:14:29. > :14:35.people living here in Spain not immigrants? That is a very different

:14:36. > :14:41.matter. There are a lot of us, a great number of us especially dine

:14:42. > :14:48.here, but we bring money, a lot of money into Spain. Particularly in

:14:49. > :14:55.this part. I, for example, lived here all the time, I am a resident.

:14:56. > :15:02.I pay my taxes here. I've spent virtually all of my income here.

:15:03. > :15:06.Sandy has just look -- just retired to the Costa del Sol. He is

:15:07. > :15:11.confident that the UK and Spanish government will cut a deal so that

:15:12. > :15:16.the British can stay on if they leave the EU. The economy would be

:15:17. > :15:22.brilliant if bold the British people move back home. It is in their own

:15:23. > :15:28.interest. After 2008 with the crash, if you look at the main spots like

:15:29. > :15:34.Marv Baer and so on, a lot of the pubs and clubs shot, because the

:15:35. > :15:39.British, the ones who could afford it, move back to Britain and they

:15:40. > :15:42.didn't get the same tourist is. They don't want that scenario I can

:15:43. > :15:49.because that would be ridiculous. This is not just about British

:15:50. > :15:53.people in Spain. There are around 2 million British citizens living

:15:54. > :15:58.throughout the EU. Solutions will have to be fined if there is an exit

:15:59. > :16:03.vote, either with each individual country on the EU as a whole.

:16:04. > :16:08.Earlier tonight I spoke to two men who have a fair bit of experience

:16:09. > :16:11.of living and working both in the UK and in other EU countries.

:16:12. > :16:13.Henry Page, a lawyer who was until recently

:16:14. > :16:20.in France, and David Clarke from Ireland, who now lives here.

:16:21. > :16:26.Henry, you heard in the film concerns from Scots living in Spain,

:16:27. > :16:31.worried about what they might lose if the UK voted to leave the EU. You

:16:32. > :16:38.have lived and worked in France. He think we should leave. Dealing with

:16:39. > :16:41.the concerns, I noted a couple. First ball, health care. I would

:16:42. > :16:45.like to point out that health care goes with residency and not with

:16:46. > :16:53.nationality. You heard the lady said that she pays her taxes and so on. I

:16:54. > :16:58.don't think there is any concern on health care. Isn't she worried that

:16:59. > :17:05.she would not get the same benefits as she would as a British citizen?

:17:06. > :17:08.That worry is about them that -- without foundation. This is a

:17:09. > :17:13.question for residents and not nationality. The camp near different

:17:14. > :17:17.rules but people with different passports. If you are resident in a

:17:18. > :17:22.country then you get the benefits in that country. There is absolutely no

:17:23. > :17:26.problem. The second concern was the gentleman who said I am sure there

:17:27. > :17:30.must be some arrangement to be made with Spain and England to enable us

:17:31. > :17:36.to stay in Spain. This is an absolute certainty. There is

:17:37. > :17:43.absolutely no doubt. It was confirmed by the head of the legal

:17:44. > :17:48.services of the EU Council that the UK citizens in the EU would be

:17:49. > :17:55.permitted to stay. This is a done deal. There is no question about it.

:17:56. > :17:58.David, nothing to worry about? I just don't know whether certainty

:17:59. > :18:07.comes from. There is lots to worry about. How can we say that they will

:18:08. > :18:13.allow to be residents in Spain still? We just don't know any of

:18:14. > :18:19.these things. As with all of the food Leave rhetoric, it is based on

:18:20. > :18:24.conjecture. They don't know what is going to happen. We have millions of

:18:25. > :18:28.people, millions of Britons living around Europe who are uncertain

:18:29. > :18:34.about the future because of this vote that is taking place here. We

:18:35. > :18:37.need to phone Remain to make sure that our citizens living abroad can

:18:38. > :18:43.benefit from the same things that we benefit from here. I have to

:18:44. > :18:47.disagree with you. I quoted the former head of the legal services of

:18:48. > :18:53.the EU Council who confronting categoric terms that nobody resident

:18:54. > :18:59.in the EU now, no British resident, would be asked to leave in exactly

:19:00. > :19:05.the same way that no EU resident in Britain will be asked to leave. It

:19:06. > :19:10.is a stone cold certainty. It is typical of the Remain party to say

:19:11. > :19:18.that we are grabbing at uncertainties. The situation is the

:19:19. > :19:22.opposite. We have a clear position. David, you travel regularly between

:19:23. > :19:26.EU countries for work. How do you think that would change if you were

:19:27. > :19:31.not from a country within the EU? All of the benefits... I am

:19:32. > :19:36.obviously from Ireland originally. I was back there at the weekend that

:19:37. > :19:42.the children, you are Scottish. I bring my EE 111 card which gets me

:19:43. > :19:49.health care around Europe if anything were to happen. All these

:19:50. > :19:53.benefits that we almost take for granted, the right to claim your

:19:54. > :19:58.pension abroad, all of these things are put up in the air by us leaving

:19:59. > :20:03.the EU. What bothers me is that Hendry says it is OK for the people

:20:04. > :20:09.that are at there. What about all the young people that haven't had

:20:10. > :20:13.the benefit? They want to pull up the drawbridge and those younger

:20:14. > :20:17.people who don't have his opportunities, haven't had the

:20:18. > :20:21.opportunity to move abroad. That is the unfair thing about it. It is

:20:22. > :20:25.letting down the younger people who have these opportunities ahead of

:20:26. > :20:32.them and they will be taken away. The drawbridge is a very interesting

:20:33. > :20:37.expression. David Cameron and used it. He said that Britain pull up the

:20:38. > :20:41.drawbridge from Europe. In fact, Britain wants to let down the

:20:42. > :20:45.drawbridge to the whole world. We will keep our economic activity in

:20:46. > :20:49.Europe, there is no doubt at all. They need us as us as much as we

:20:50. > :20:54.need them, in fact they need us more. Have very small proportion of

:20:55. > :20:58.exports go to the EU and we are not all dependent. Everybody knows that

:20:59. > :21:04.this is a political argument and not an economic one. Written can survive

:21:05. > :21:08.perfectly well outside. Do you really think it would be just as

:21:09. > :21:14.easy to live and work in any of these EU countries where Britain to

:21:15. > :21:18.leave the EU? There are two different stages. One is the people

:21:19. > :21:23.who live there already. No problem at all. They can stay, same

:21:24. > :21:28.benefits. People who want to go and work in the EU will need to

:21:29. > :21:33.demonstrate, as I did when I first went out, that I had a job offer. I

:21:34. > :21:36.don't think that is unreasonable if you are going to go and live

:21:37. > :21:40.permanently in a foreign country. They don't want us to come over and

:21:41. > :21:44.started against it benefits as an unemployed person, and we don't want

:21:45. > :21:51.them to do that here. David Cameron wants people to have job offers

:21:52. > :21:57.before they come in to benefit here. In future, a young person will be

:21:58. > :22:01.able to go abroad is provided he has a job offer. Of course you can go on

:22:02. > :22:04.holiday there completely freely as today. If you want to live there

:22:05. > :22:10.permanently you need to prove you have a job offer. You have seen the

:22:11. > :22:14.benefit of free movement within the EU, but that doesn't seem to be the

:22:15. > :22:19.central issue for a lot of voters here. Do you have sympathy with

:22:20. > :22:22.concerns of those living within the UK about the pressure on public

:22:23. > :22:29.services, for example, from high levels of immigration? Absolutely.

:22:30. > :22:34.But we need to separate immigration in general from EU immigration.

:22:35. > :22:41.There are 2 million Britons living in the rest of the EU. 2 million EU

:22:42. > :22:47.citizens living in Great Britain. We have been in the EU for 40 years

:22:48. > :22:53.plus. 2,000 people a year, a large school coming here. It has been

:22:54. > :22:57.overblown by people who just want us to leave the EU. I understand that

:22:58. > :23:01.there are pressures on certain areas, but that is a government

:23:02. > :23:05.thing. Government needs to make sure that they can put the resources

:23:06. > :23:11.where they are needed. As far as EU immigration is concerned, they

:23:12. > :23:17.benefit hugely did UK. They put in ?20 billion into the UK economy from

:23:18. > :23:21.2001 to 2011. They work hard and unlike a lot of British citizens

:23:22. > :23:26.abroad who are retired, they are contributing to the economy here.

:23:27. > :23:30.Thank you both very much. With me now to talk about some

:23:31. > :23:33.of the day's other news is the PR director Andy Maciver,

:23:34. > :23:42.and the journalist Marianne Taylor. Let's start with your field. Nicola

:23:43. > :23:47.Sturgeon has called the decision at Muirfield golf club to reject women

:23:48. > :23:52.members is indefensible and wants to see it overturned. Here is the

:23:53. > :23:58.club's. So, a majority of members voted for women as members of the

:23:59. > :24:03.club, but the two thirds majority that we require for a change in the

:24:04. > :24:10.rules was not met. The club therefore will retain its men only

:24:11. > :24:13.membership policy. The honourable company is a members club and the

:24:14. > :24:19.members decide the rules of the club, including its membership

:24:20. > :24:23.policy. Women will continue to be welcome at Muirfield on the course

:24:24. > :24:28.and in the clubhouse as guests and visitors are tourists, as they had

:24:29. > :24:35.been for many years. We have some ladies playing here today. Thank

:24:36. > :24:40.you. As he said, ladies can still play the, does it matter that they

:24:41. > :24:44.can't have full membership? I think it is absolutely astonishing and I

:24:45. > :24:49.don't know any women or any men who would want to be members of

:24:50. > :24:56.Muirfield. To think that they would rather that they made sure they were

:24:57. > :25:00.and wholemeal club than have the British open stage is absolutely

:25:01. > :25:08.astonishing. I have to say, if that is how they feel, if they want the

:25:09. > :25:13.gentleman is club, if they want that to be the club, all the best of

:25:14. > :25:21.them. I think women have other things to worry and concern

:25:22. > :25:25.themselves over. I think they are idiots and if this is how they feel,

:25:26. > :25:30.leave them to it. I wouldn't want to be a member of the club that would

:25:31. > :25:34.want me to be a member. Either good reasons in the 21st century for

:25:35. > :25:41.having a meal on the golf club? I don't think so. Golf has become a

:25:42. > :25:45.unisex sport. There are clearly more men play, but a lot of girls play

:25:46. > :25:50.golf now and a lot of the clubs in Scotland are really good at girls

:25:51. > :25:54.golf. You have to respect the fact that if they want to have met only

:25:55. > :25:59.in the club, that is fine. There are a lot of women only golf clubs and

:26:00. > :26:02.gyms in Scotland, and that is up to them. I think it is ridiculous and

:26:03. > :26:06.it is not a decision I would've made. The Royal and ancient have

:26:07. > :26:10.done that the right thing by saying if you are doing that then you're

:26:11. > :26:16.not having the British Open. It is a shame for the British Open because

:26:17. > :26:21.it is the best venue. The Royal and ancient have made a good decision.

:26:22. > :26:25.The members of Muirfield and like the British Open because they lose

:26:26. > :26:30.that course for four weeks every eight years, so there are quite

:26:31. > :26:33.happy. The bigger picture is at the Royal and ancient has taken a very

:26:34. > :26:39.big step, of the global ambassadors golf. This will blow over because

:26:40. > :26:48.Muirfield will change the decision over the next years. Will it? If

:26:49. > :26:52.they do, they do. If not, then not. We can glean everything about the

:26:53. > :26:59.outlook in life through this and they are not mainstream club. It is

:27:00. > :27:02.not per mainstream people, but the Open is a mainstream events so they

:27:03. > :27:08.are not involved in it, then so be it. Bad news for the local economy.

:27:09. > :27:18.A lot of money goes into East Lothian. People don't want it to go

:27:19. > :27:22.to Turnbury because of Donald Trump. It was estimated to be worth ?70

:27:23. > :27:28.million when it was last in Muirfield. It is not due back to

:27:29. > :27:32.Muirfield until after 2020 so there is time for this decision to be

:27:33. > :27:37.reversed. I think it will be, it was only 14 votes. Tomorrow, uniform

:27:38. > :27:44.packaging rules for tobacco will be introduced after juridical gel --

:27:45. > :27:48.after a legal challenge. They will need to have olive green packaging

:27:49. > :27:57.with a large health warning. Will this put people off smoking? From

:27:58. > :28:01.all the latest research, fewer and fewer young people are smoking,

:28:02. > :28:06.which is a good thing. The smoking ban has had an impact. I am not sure

:28:07. > :28:16.this will have any impact on the hard core of smokers. Apparently 20%

:28:17. > :28:21.smoke still, but among low-income families, low-income areas it is

:28:22. > :28:26.much higher. I understand that have the unemployed smoke and half of

:28:27. > :28:31.those who are not in work due to smoke. I am not sure if this will

:28:32. > :28:36.have any impact on them because what they need is one to one intervention

:28:37. > :28:40.and I am not sure of changing any of these things will have an impact. I

:28:41. > :28:45.did stop people starting? I don't think so. I think there is scant

:28:46. > :28:51.evidence for it. The smoking ban has done a huge amount to stop smoking

:28:52. > :28:54.but that is a prohibition bank of sorts. I don't think this sort of

:28:55. > :28:59.thing makes any difference. The biggest impact of the help of

:29:00. > :29:04.smokers in this country will be e-cigarette. If government wants to

:29:05. > :29:07.make a big difference to smoking help they should make sure that

:29:08. > :29:11.e-cigarette are not regulated in the way they are threatening to do

:29:12. > :29:14.because that could be the biggest benefit to public health.

:29:15. > :29:15.That's it for tonight and for this week.

:29:16. > :29:20.I'm back again on Monday night at the usual time.