:00:00. > :00:00.At the end of his short life, he had 30 injuries on his body.
:00:07. > :00:08.Inflicted by his mum and her partner.
:00:09. > :00:28.Could more have been done to save Liam Fee?
:00:29. > :00:34.As a couple face life in prison, could the government's
:00:35. > :00:38.new Named Persons scheme help prevent cases like the murder
:00:39. > :00:43.And the extraordinary rise of the SNP.
:00:44. > :00:45.Could they have done even better last month if they'd ruled out
:00:46. > :00:59.In Liam Fee's short life, concerns about his care were raised
:01:00. > :01:03.with the authorities no less than three times.
:01:04. > :01:06.On two occasions, this led to meetings about the toddler
:01:07. > :01:13.Why not will now be the subject of a review.
:01:14. > :01:16.What we do know is that Liam was found dead
:01:17. > :01:21.His last few days of life were spent in intense agony,
:01:22. > :01:25.Injuries inflicted by his mother Rachel Fee
:01:26. > :01:42.Liam Fee perished in the most horrific and unimaginable way. He
:01:43. > :01:47.died from a ruptured heart brought about by a blow to his body. There
:01:48. > :01:51.were double fractures to his leg and arm and 30 other injuries. The
:01:52. > :01:55.killers were the people who should have been his ultimate protectors,
:01:56. > :02:00.his mother and partner. The level of abuse and neglect that has taken
:02:01. > :02:03.place over a prolonged period of time, we wanted all the details, we
:02:04. > :02:09.didn't want to miss the additional charges that could have been put
:02:10. > :02:13.against them. Rachel Fee and Nyomi Fee arriving at court during their
:02:14. > :02:18.trial, inflicted a catalogue of abuse on another two boys who spoke
:02:19. > :02:22.of being beaten, locked in a cage, tied up and forced to take hold
:02:23. > :02:26.showers. A former friend spoke of his disbelief at the pair's reaction
:02:27. > :02:35.at the death. There was no emotion in them. They were laughing, joking.
:02:36. > :02:41.They said they were going to be sent to jail for neglect. Because they
:02:42. > :02:46.knew they were being and for neglect anyway. But laughing and joking...
:02:47. > :02:53.They were going to get the same cell together. Concerns were raised about
:02:54. > :02:57.him several times. A senior five social worker admitted that at one
:02:58. > :03:02.point Liam fell off their radar. A member of staff went off sick, no
:03:03. > :03:06.one else was assigned to the case and wasn't reviewed until further
:03:07. > :03:10.concerns were raised. These points will all be investigated in an
:03:11. > :03:13.independent review already announced. The circumstances of
:03:14. > :03:19.supporting families in situations like this can be complex and there
:03:20. > :03:24.were a range of agencies involved in supporting Liam and his family, and
:03:25. > :03:30.the details of that will be looked at in the serious case review. I
:03:31. > :03:34.think it is important we allow the significant case review to consider
:03:35. > :03:37.the circumstances of what has happened to be in some detail.
:03:38. > :03:41.There's been a series of tragic cases in which reviews have been
:03:42. > :03:51.carried out after a child was killed by their parents or killers. --
:03:52. > :03:54.minders. The questions are always about how to prevent these cases
:03:55. > :04:00.from happening again. That is turned up the heat on a controversial new
:04:01. > :04:07.law giving every child at dedicated person. Because of confidentiality,
:04:08. > :04:14.the council can't say whether Liam was covered by this or not. One
:04:15. > :04:19.charity says it is important organisations talk to each other. It
:04:20. > :04:24.is really important there is a joint up approach when there are concerns
:04:25. > :04:33.about a child. The Named Person in Scotland is one of those ways. They
:04:34. > :04:38.can make sure that any concerns are coordinated and that action is taken
:04:39. > :04:42.and that all the people who should know are aware of any concerns.
:04:43. > :04:46.Critics say too many children will come under the microscope, even
:04:47. > :04:51.those who don't need it. In terms of the number of children who suddenly
:04:52. > :04:54.become monitored where professionals and social workers are spending more
:04:55. > :05:02.time with children who, really, should be left alone, who are not
:05:03. > :05:07.serious risk. The focus should be children who are being neglected,
:05:08. > :05:13.families that need serious support, and that should be the focus. Not
:05:14. > :05:18.well being concerns and a universal service for all children and
:05:19. > :05:22.families. But would it have helped Liam? The NSPCC say the problem was
:05:23. > :05:30.one of child protection. Children and walking about with high risk on
:05:31. > :05:33.their heads. We don't know what children and parents and families
:05:34. > :05:37.are going to need support and the main person is there to act as a
:05:38. > :05:45.point of support to children and families. When things go wrong,
:05:46. > :05:50.where child protection comes in, that is what has failed Liam. Could
:05:51. > :05:55.the named person's more help prevent children like Liam falling off the
:05:56. > :05:58.radar or is there no way of rooting out the determined capability of two
:05:59. > :06:00.people intent on hurting their children?
:06:01. > :06:03.Here now to explore those questions are former Children's Panel member
:06:04. > :06:07.And, in our Edinburgh studio, Douglas Ross,
:06:08. > :06:13.the Scottish Conservatives' Justice Spokesperson.
:06:14. > :06:23.Welcome to you both. This is a case that has shocked everyone. The two
:06:24. > :06:28.people responsible for Liam's death watch and pin sheet and Nyomi Fee.
:06:29. > :06:34.There is no doubt, though, is there, that the agencies involved here also
:06:35. > :06:40.failed Liam. I think it is true what Alison Tod was saying and the lady
:06:41. > :06:45.from the NSPCC. The Named Person is about information sharing. That is
:06:46. > :06:48.what it is supposed to do. I can't speculate on this particular case
:06:49. > :06:52.because there is a serious case review about to start which will
:06:53. > :06:56.shed light on what happened here. We don't need another review to tell us
:06:57. > :07:01.things still aren't working in a joined up way. It is important, due
:07:02. > :07:05.to the seriousness of this case, it is totally tragic and it has shocked
:07:06. > :07:10.everyone, that we need a review to see what went wrong. The Named
:07:11. > :07:14.Person is a protection for children at the very early stage to pick up
:07:15. > :07:19.signs at a very early stage, and it is a point of contact, as we said
:07:20. > :07:24.earlier, for one person, for the child to go to one person, and that
:07:25. > :07:30.person can help them and share their information with other agencies, and
:07:31. > :07:35.it should work. And it has been designed for extra protection. Might
:07:36. > :07:38.have 18 10th ring-mac made a difference in a case like this? I
:07:39. > :07:43.want to begin by saying how shocking and sad this whole episode is. A
:07:44. > :07:48.young boy is dead, and his death is at the hands of his parents, his
:07:49. > :07:51.mother, whose prime responsibility in life should be caring for her
:07:52. > :07:55.children so we have to look at that. In terms of the Named Person, we
:07:56. > :08:02.shouldn't be speculating on the pros and cons of the policies surrounding
:08:03. > :08:05.that. There were a number of interventions and opportunities,
:08:06. > :08:09.whether it was the nursery who highlighted their concerns, whether
:08:10. > :08:12.it was somebody looking deathly outside a local shop, whether it was
:08:13. > :08:17.the police or social workers who went to the house. It isn't as if
:08:18. > :08:20.Liam Fee didn't have any contact with people in the social services
:08:21. > :08:24.but he fell through the cracks, which is what we have to address,
:08:25. > :08:28.and the significant case review is the right way to go. You say we
:08:29. > :08:33.shouldn't speculate about the Named Person tonight but your leader, Ruth
:08:34. > :08:37.Davidson, has treated tonight saying Liam Fee had a named person under
:08:38. > :08:42.the five pilot of the scheme. To be fair, she didn't just tweeted that
:08:43. > :08:45.of her own back, she tweeted it in response to your tweets saying you
:08:46. > :08:49.were discussing the Named Person on the show tonight, and what she was
:08:50. > :08:55.saying is under the pilot in which five council were involved... So,
:08:56. > :09:00.you know that to be true? Choose clarifying the point. Do you know
:09:01. > :09:04.that to be true? Did Liam Fee have a Named Person? My understanding is he
:09:05. > :09:09.had a Named Person through the pilot with five council but it wasn't a
:09:10. > :09:15.Named Person that was involved but it was police, social work, the
:09:16. > :09:19.nursery... Just to be clear... There were a number of areas where he
:09:20. > :09:23.could have been... It is important to be clear because Ruth Davidson
:09:24. > :09:27.has tweeted. We asked five council today. They said because of
:09:28. > :09:31.confidentiality they couldn't say whether or not Liam was covered. But
:09:32. > :09:35.they said it isn't accurate to say every child in five had the
:09:36. > :09:41.equivalent of a named person. OK, but what is accurate to say, if I
:09:42. > :09:50.can say, is that five council was involved, is involved with the pilot
:09:51. > :09:52.of a Named Person, so we are aware that is one of the local
:09:53. > :09:54.authorities, including South Ayrshire, Highland and others that
:09:55. > :09:59.was involved in the pilot of the Named Person but we shouldn't get
:10:00. > :10:02.away from the fact that there were a number of agencies involved and that
:10:03. > :10:07.is what we have to get to the bottom of. There is a child who is now dead
:10:08. > :10:10.at the hands of his mother, and there were opportunities,
:10:11. > :10:14.potentially, to stop that, and they were not taken. So, Ruth Davidson
:10:15. > :10:20.this saying with some confidence, and Douglas Ross as well, that Liam
:10:21. > :10:24.Fee had a named person in five. Is that your understanding? I
:10:25. > :10:29.absolutely don't know. I know five for trialling the Named Person as
:10:30. > :10:34.were other local authorities but it is speculation whether he did all he
:10:35. > :10:39.didn't. So, can we take it, then, that a Named Person might make a
:10:40. > :10:43.difference in a case like this? Having a single point of contact to
:10:44. > :10:47.make sure everybody knows what is going on, and, crucially, so that
:10:48. > :10:50.something is done about it? That's right, this is why we are
:10:51. > :10:56.strengthening our child protection policy. This goes beyond that. What
:10:57. > :11:00.we have to remember is the people who are responsible for this tragic
:11:01. > :11:07.incident are the people that were convicted today. And we have to
:11:08. > :11:13.always remember that. The Named Person is an extra layer for
:11:14. > :11:18.children who are vulnerable because not every child has a happy family
:11:19. > :11:23.and can talk to their family. Is it taking resources away from the most
:11:24. > :11:27.vulnerable? That is the criticism. Extra re-sources have been put in to
:11:28. > :11:33.administer the Named Person, so it isn't a question of resources. So to
:11:34. > :11:40.try to tie in the two, this tragic incident and the Named Person, is
:11:41. > :11:45.complete be false. Do you think it is wrong to try and tie these two
:11:46. > :11:50.things together or is this exactly what the debate's about? I do think
:11:51. > :11:52.it is wrong which is why I say we shouldn't be trying to make a
:11:53. > :11:58.political case out of this one incident and I'll go back to Ruth's
:11:59. > :12:02.tweet. It was in response to your programme's tweet about the Named
:12:03. > :12:06.Person being discussed in relation to this case. I also want to make
:12:07. > :12:10.the point that beyond the guilty verdict for murder today, the two
:12:11. > :12:14.individuals were found guilty of over two years of abuse and assault
:12:15. > :12:19.of this young boy so it wasn't just a one-off incident, where his heart
:12:20. > :12:24.was punctured, he had 30 injuries, the broken arm and broken leg. Akin
:12:25. > :12:28.to being in a road accident. There was two years of abuse and terror
:12:29. > :12:31.that was suffered by that boy, and that is what we have to get to the
:12:32. > :12:37.bottom of. It wasn't a one-off incident. There's so much going on
:12:38. > :12:38.here, which is why there must have been opportunities for an
:12:39. > :12:44.intervention at an earlier stage. What is the point in Named Person,
:12:45. > :12:50.if it isn't to help in cases like this? Nicola Sturgeon has said that
:12:51. > :12:56.if it saves one child's life, it is worth it. That is true. It is there,
:12:57. > :13:00.but I don't think you can link it with this case because we just don't
:13:01. > :13:06.know what happened. We will all be spectating about what happened. I've
:13:07. > :13:11.been a children's panel member for six years and these are thankfully
:13:12. > :13:15.very rare cases, and the majority of children... We see hundreds of
:13:16. > :13:20.children every day, and we help and protect them. And we do it well. It
:13:21. > :13:25.is to do with information sharing and the Named Person will help that.
:13:26. > :13:29.In this case, something's gone wrong, but we don't know what yet.
:13:30. > :13:31.All right, thank you both for coming in this evening.
:13:32. > :13:34.Now, it may seem a little churlish to ask why the SNP didn't do better
:13:35. > :13:40.More than 46% of the constituency vote, up 1% on the election before,
:13:41. > :13:44.with more MSPs than the other parties could dream of.
:13:45. > :13:47.But the co-author of a new book on the rise of the SNP thinks
:13:48. > :13:52.they could have won a majority if they'd played things differently.
:13:53. > :13:55.Just before we came on air, I spoke to Professor James Mitchell,
:13:56. > :14:04.Chair of Public Policy at Edinburgh University.
:14:05. > :14:11.You start your book by saying it's a story of electoral supremacy but you
:14:12. > :14:18.think the SNP could have done even better at the Hollywood elections.
:14:19. > :14:23.Hard? I think if they had ruled out a second independence referendum, I
:14:24. > :14:35.suspect they would have been able to win, maybe over 50% of the vote --
:14:36. > :14:40.Holyrood, how? But the support of independence is one thing that
:14:41. > :14:45.appeals to them. And also they are more competent than the
:14:46. > :14:51.alternatives. But I think a second independence referendum put off some
:14:52. > :14:56.people. Because BCB SNP as confident. And the chances of a
:14:57. > :15:00.second referendum in this Parliament are negligible. It would have served
:15:01. > :15:05.them well if they had formally ruled it out rather than be ambiguous
:15:06. > :15:10.position they had, which ultimately didn't do them any good. But if
:15:11. > :15:15.Nicola Sturgeon ruled out a second independence referendum, that would
:15:16. > :15:21.surely have alienate at her core supported? I don't think so. The
:15:22. > :15:25.core supporters now the prospects for another independence referendum
:15:26. > :15:31.are unlikely to happen. And for many who want independence, few have an
:15:32. > :15:36.appetite for an immediate referendum. And to be honest there
:15:37. > :15:39.was little else for them to go. I can't imagine they would disappear
:15:40. > :15:42.and, as long as she wasn't abandoning the long-term objective
:15:43. > :15:50.of independence, I think she would have done better. But wouldn't doubt
:15:51. > :15:54.even be difficult for her herself, as a lifelong independence
:15:55. > :16:00.supporter, to stomach, to sell to the nation, even if it made sense
:16:01. > :16:05.strategically? I think that's what strategic thinking politicians have
:16:06. > :16:10.to do, think to the long-term. And that would have been a very good
:16:11. > :16:15.move on her part. And of course she wants independence, no doubt as soon
:16:16. > :16:20.as possible, but she's got to allow her head to rule, not her heart. And
:16:21. > :16:25.except as she should have that independence is not likely in this
:16:26. > :16:29.Parliament, and an indirect -- and a referendum wasn't, so it made more
:16:30. > :16:34.logical sense to rule it out for now but we'll come back and revisit this
:16:35. > :16:39.at the next election. In the boot you go way back, charting the as you
:16:40. > :16:46.put in the extraordinary rise of the SNP. Looking at the last Westminster
:16:47. > :16:55.election, the SNP won a Holyrood election, and it Westminster -- and
:16:56. > :17:02.its Westminster majority by rocking the boat almost two cup size. Could
:17:03. > :17:10.we expect a cut in the SNP's MPs at the next election? I don't think we
:17:11. > :17:16.will have election campaign. I don't think the SNP is to worry too much.
:17:17. > :17:20.At the end of the day the SNP has to write two horses at the same time,
:17:21. > :17:23.on the one hand showing it as confident in government, but also
:17:24. > :17:29.keeping alive the idea of independence. What happened in the
:17:30. > :17:33.immediate aftermath of the referendum, at last year's UK
:17:34. > :17:38.election, is it took advantage of that mood still there from that
:17:39. > :17:42.referendum. No time and people have moved on, and the Scottish
:17:43. > :17:44.parliament elections were about electing government to deal with
:17:45. > :17:51.education, housing, health, all the other devolved matters, and people
:17:52. > :17:55.were looking and got a message of competence from the SNP but it was
:17:56. > :18:00.clouded to some extent about whether there would be another independence
:18:01. > :18:03.referendum. Nobody doubts the SNP supports independence, the question
:18:04. > :18:08.is when the second referendum will take place and went would it be
:18:09. > :18:14.rational for the SNP and its leader to push for that. At the Westminster
:18:15. > :18:17.election, you see in the book, the possibility of a hung parliament
:18:18. > :18:22.made voters think the SNP could have influence. I guess the challenge is
:18:23. > :18:25.whether they can now deliver on that. Obviously they have had
:18:26. > :18:31.problems with their Westminster group. One of the backgrounds and
:18:32. > :18:35.white bread reception to that election was that there would be a
:18:36. > :18:39.hung parliament, giving the SNP relevance. That will be a challenge
:18:40. > :18:43.at the next election if the public don't believe there will be a hung
:18:44. > :18:47.parliament. So the SNP will need a different message that they are a
:18:48. > :19:00.much more effective opposition in London than the alternative, the
:19:01. > :19:03.Labour Party. That will be a challenge. I don't think they can
:19:04. > :19:07.repeat the same message and approach at the Yuji elections as used last
:19:08. > :19:15.year. What have you find out about why the Tories did so well and white
:19:16. > :19:18.Labour did so badly? The Tories fought a truly remarkable campaign.
:19:19. > :19:22.In many respects the best campaign, it was certainly focused, a clear
:19:23. > :19:30.set of messages, they did not depart from this messages, to oppose an
:19:31. > :19:32.independence referendum, and that the message was Labour was
:19:33. > :19:37.ineffective. Repeating those messages again and again was very,
:19:38. > :19:41.very effective and of course the Tories were clear that they were not
:19:42. > :19:45.seeking office as the government of Scotland but to be the main
:19:46. > :19:48.opposition. Their ambitions were relatively limited in that respect
:19:49. > :19:54.but they were incredibly effective in getting that message across and
:19:55. > :20:01.part of that was to deny they were Tories almost, the white
:20:02. > :20:04.Conservative almost unseen in the election contest. -- the word
:20:05. > :20:09.Conservative. Making sure the likes of David Cameron and George Osborne
:20:10. > :20:13.were not seen. They were more nationalist than they have been but
:20:14. > :20:18.selling a hard unionist message and I have to be safe they were very
:20:19. > :20:23.effective good at doing it. Looking at your crystal ball, have we
:20:24. > :20:28.reached peak SNP? I don't have a crystal ball. With political
:20:29. > :20:31.sciences we have trouble enough understanding the present without
:20:32. > :20:36.looking to the future. Anyone thinking the SNP has reached its
:20:37. > :20:40.peak, or hasn't, is speculating and probably tells us more about what
:20:41. > :20:47.they want to happen. There is evidence the SNP, I think they could
:20:48. > :20:52.have done better, going over 50% of the vote in these elections, to the
:20:53. > :20:55.Holyrood parliament. I don't think anyone can say they have come
:20:56. > :21:01.anywhere near to peak but only time will tell. Indeed. Professor James
:21:02. > :21:03.Mitchell, thank you for joining us. Thank you.
:21:04. > :21:06.Joining me now to talk about some of the day's other
:21:07. > :21:07.news is David Clegg, the Political Editor
:21:08. > :21:10.And the Guardian's Scotland Correspondent, Libby Brooks.
:21:11. > :21:17.Hello to both of you. Professor Mitchell there are seeing the SNP
:21:18. > :21:21.would have done better if Nicola Sturgeon had ruled out a second
:21:22. > :21:26.independence referendum. David, do you think he is right? I have
:21:27. > :21:32.started reading his book but I'm not sure I am buying that thesis. Why
:21:33. > :21:37.not? The result was a very successful result, it is very, very
:21:38. > :21:41.difficult to get majority under proportional representation and I'm
:21:42. > :21:45.not sure their position on the independence referendum was the
:21:46. > :21:49.difference there. As he has set himself, I think part of the problem
:21:50. > :21:53.they did not get the majority is more people were a bit promiscuous
:21:54. > :21:58.with their list of votes than in 2011. If the SNP had looked looser
:21:59. > :22:03.on the referendum on independence, you might have seen even more people
:22:04. > :22:08.leaking to the Greens or other pro-independence parties. I'm not
:22:09. > :22:13.sure that stacks up. Part of his point is distinct groups of people
:22:14. > :22:17.voting SNP, not all of them independence supporter, some voting
:22:18. > :22:23.for competent government, and that they were put off by the uncertainty
:22:24. > :22:28.about a second referendum. Yes, again, I'm not completely convinced
:22:29. > :22:34.by that thesis. Yes, that speaks to I think a minority of voters, but I
:22:35. > :22:40.think for the most part I think that mixture between competence and sort
:22:41. > :22:44.of aspiration, high ideals, is one of the great appeals of the SNP and
:22:45. > :22:51.the reason they have been doing so well lately, is that notion that
:22:52. > :22:55.they can sort of take care of those workaday ordinarily quite boring
:22:56. > :23:01.concerns that you have the two-day, public services and so forth, but
:23:02. > :23:06.also offering a dream. I think that one of the reasons for their
:23:07. > :23:10.success. I wondered as well how it would have played with the party
:23:11. > :23:15.faithful, the people who have supported the SNP for years because
:23:16. > :23:19.of independence, right to take their votes for granted? I think that
:23:20. > :23:26.Nicola Sturgeon played that perfectly. They talk about the
:23:27. > :23:34.initiative for independence. There was an applause point in her speech.
:23:35. > :23:36.What she did during the Holyrood election campaign was to put an
:23:37. > :23:41.independence referendum in the distance but in such a way to keep
:23:42. > :23:46.all of The Independent supporters in line, but also allowed her to switch
:23:47. > :23:51.focus and reach out to other voters as well. The idea that this put
:23:52. > :23:56.independence supporters off of the SNP seem strange and I'm not sure it
:23:57. > :23:59.stacks up. Going back to your point about competent government, and the
:24:00. > :24:05.new Education Minister John Swinney has acknowledged he has much to do
:24:06. > :24:11.to improve schooling, amid new figures that the number of primary
:24:12. > :24:17.school pupils but the grasp of numbers has fallen again.
:24:18. > :24:21.There are ways we can Liverpool is foundational skills as part of
:24:22. > :24:26.product education, and that is the challenge we have to take forward --
:24:27. > :24:31.there are ways we can improve the foundational skills. I will focus my
:24:32. > :24:38.efforts on this. It is a challenge all right. It certainly is. Those
:24:39. > :24:43.numbers on them Morrissey were pretty shocking. It is what you go
:24:44. > :24:50.to school for. -- those numbers on numeracy. This question of closing
:24:51. > :24:55.the attainment gap, and incredibly noble ideal, but I wonder if the SNP
:24:56. > :25:00.will come up against the problem that it is more than education,
:25:01. > :25:07.improvements in education, that are needed to solve that. We are talking
:25:08. > :25:14.about poverty and equality gap as well. That is a point that the EIS
:25:15. > :25:21.were seeing, that the biggest drop is amongst the deprived. Is it is
:25:22. > :25:27.also about austerity than improving schools? It is about the number of
:25:28. > :25:32.teachers. The education budget has been cut by the SNP by about 10%.
:25:33. > :25:40.And the issue with the most deprived communities. We have around one
:25:41. > :25:48.third of EIS pupils failing basic numeracy standards. -- one third of
:25:49. > :25:54.S2 pupils. It is the government's job to be dealing with this in such
:25:55. > :25:58.a way that it is levelled out, that resources are targeted to those who
:25:59. > :26:02.need it most. And after nine years of government, the SNP have not been
:26:03. > :26:06.doing that. John Swinney spoke about measures being put in place to get
:26:07. > :26:11.higher new Morrissey, but you have to give it time, do you think the
:26:12. > :26:18.public will buy that? -- higher numeracy. He has been the job a
:26:19. > :26:21.couple of days and has to apply through summertime councils and so
:26:22. > :26:27.forth that Nicola Sturgeon announced when she set out her plans for the
:26:28. > :26:32.next year. I think what he needs to do is start building bridges with
:26:33. > :26:37.teachers, with the unions, also with local authorities. Let's not forget
:26:38. > :26:41.that he was in a pretty brutal stand-off with until recently his
:26:42. > :26:47.finance secretary. On the subject of competent government, again ...
:26:48. > :26:50.The number of new outpatients waiting more than 12 weeks for
:26:51. > :26:52.treatment has increased fivefold since the Scottish Government
:26:53. > :26:54.gave a "guarantee" that nobody would have to wait that long.
:26:55. > :27:02.I guess it matters that they get this right, doesn't it? Absolutely
:27:03. > :27:08.right, and similar to numeracy, on health and education, the clock does
:27:09. > :27:16.not start when John Swinney took office, it starts with when the SNP
:27:17. > :27:21.took office. The numbers on waiting times were ambitious, set by the SNP
:27:22. > :27:25.in 2012, but they seem to have gone backwards rather than forwards on
:27:26. > :27:31.meeting them, a lot of work to do. And a bit of a mistake to make it a
:27:32. > :27:35.guarantee? Not at all, targets are always artificial to an extent but
:27:36. > :27:40.the key is to remember that you need to have the resources and expertise
:27:41. > :27:44.behind the targets to actually ensure they are met. Thank you both
:27:45. > :27:47.very much for coming in this evening.
:27:48. > :27:48.That's it for tonight. Thanks for watching.
:27:49. > :27:50.I'm back again tomorrow night, usual time.
:27:51. > :27:54.So do please join me then, but for now, we leave you with some
:27:55. > :27:57.images from today's memorial service in Orkney to mark the centenary
:27:58. > :27:59.of the Battle of Jutland, the largest naval battle
:28:00. > :28:33.Dear friends, but as practice loving each other, for love comes from God.
:28:34. > :28:42.-- let us practice. We haven't really wakened up to the
:28:43. > :29:04.implications of Brexit for Scotland. both in Scotland and abroad
:29:05. > :29:11.to find out. We've built our business models
:29:12. > :29:14.around EU membership, Brussels seemed to have more
:29:15. > :29:19.and more control. It was like a noose round our neck
:29:20. > :29:48.all the time. Think you understand what it is to
:29:49. > :29:57.be in the EU? The league campaign wants you to think again. -- the
:29:58. > :30:00.leave campaign. You cannot have a single currency without political
:30:01. > :30:01.union. There has to