:04:55. > :04:59.The United Kingdom, she's determined to have another go because it was
:05:00. > :05:07.the wrong answer. Isn't that the EU... I just respond to that
:05:08. > :05:11.briefly. I don't think it is any secret to what I stand for in terms
:05:12. > :05:16.of independence, and putting that to one side tonight I'm standing here
:05:17. > :05:20.because I want people across the UK to vote to stay in the EU because
:05:21. > :05:24.it's better for Scotland and the UK, that's my argument not just to this
:05:25. > :05:31.audience, but to people across the UK. If we vote to leave... And not
:05:32. > :05:37.it is speculate on what will happen in the event of a Brexit vote, I'm
:05:38. > :05:41.here are going for Remain. Keeping an eye on the debate was David
:05:42. > :05:47.Porter who joins me now. Good evening, David. Most two hours of
:05:48. > :05:53.very intense debate, it certainly things things have livened up. A
:05:54. > :05:57.fortnight ago, in a fortnight will be counting the votes, before then
:05:58. > :06:01.we have two weeks of hard campaigning when they are fighting
:06:02. > :06:07.for every vote. It was fairly spicy and spiky tonight! When you have a
:06:08. > :06:11.two our TV debate you have a lot of time to make your arguments. And
:06:12. > :06:15.with six seasoned politicians it was always at one point going to get
:06:16. > :06:18.charity. And that is exactly what happened. None of them were backward
:06:19. > :06:22.in coming forward with their arguments. The people who were
:06:23. > :06:27.taking a back-seat with the audience. Only about six or seven
:06:28. > :06:30.questions tonight, each of the politicians got a chance to put
:06:31. > :06:37.their field and then it was opened up to debate the politicians. It was
:06:38. > :06:42.a spiky event. They are all seasoned politicians, they all know how to
:06:43. > :06:49.play dirty, and some of them took full advantage of their experience
:06:50. > :06:53.in doing just that. As we could've expected, immigration was centre
:06:54. > :06:59.stage, what other subjects are the panellists under pressure on? The
:07:00. > :07:05.economy and the NHS. It was interesting that on both of them, it
:07:06. > :07:08.came back again and again to the question of immigration. And
:07:09. > :07:13.essentially the argument being put forward by the Leave side was that
:07:14. > :07:17.the UK ought to have control of its own immigration policy, therefore it
:07:18. > :07:22.could plan for population growth, the argument put forward by the
:07:23. > :07:26.Remain side was that immigration had been good for the UK and there were
:07:27. > :07:31.many people working in this country doing vital jobs and things like the
:07:32. > :07:34.NHS who had come from the European Union, the point that Nicola
:07:35. > :07:40.Sturgeon made was that there was a too wasted, people coming into the
:07:41. > :07:45.UK from the European Union but also people going from Britain to other
:07:46. > :07:52.They were called immigrants when they came into this country, but
:07:53. > :07:58.when they were Britain's going out, they were called expatriates.
:07:59. > :08:02.This was billed as a big head-to-head between Nicola Sturgeon
:08:03. > :08:05.and Boris Johnson. How did they fair up against each other? They don't
:08:06. > :08:09.particularly like one other. I don't think it was a case where it was foe
:08:10. > :08:13.outrage or anything. Boris Johnson and Nicola Sturgeon, by far and away
:08:14. > :08:16.probably the two best known politicians on the panel and it is
:08:17. > :08:20.fairly obvious that part of the tactics that Nicola Sturgeon was
:08:21. > :08:25.using was actually to go for Boris Johnson. She didn't really attack
:08:26. > :08:30.his two female colleagues on the Leave side, but time and time again,
:08:31. > :08:33.she went for Boris Johnson and she made it pretty plain that she did
:08:34. > :08:37.not agree with him, not only just on the case of the European Union, but
:08:38. > :08:42.his wider politics as well as part of the Conservative Party. And she
:08:43. > :08:45.left a final sting in the tail if you like, she said and she
:08:46. > :08:49.questioned whether Boris Johnson was actually really interested in the
:08:50. > :08:55.case he was making about Europe and the argument or if his real interest
:08:56. > :08:59.was replacing one job, that of David Cameron. David Porter in London,
:09:00. > :09:06.thank you very much. Well, I'm joined by a pair of
:09:07. > :09:11.political commentators. Katie Grant and in Edinburgh Ian. Good evening
:09:12. > :09:16.to both of you. Katie, how do you think the First Minister did? Well,
:09:17. > :09:21.I thought she looked uncomfortable actually and I think it must be
:09:22. > :09:27.uncomfortable for her using the same arguments that the Better Together
:09:28. > :09:32.campaign used, but to remain. I didn't think she looked Kerr bleu
:09:33. > :09:36.comfortable of the it was a msz take to go for Boris. She should have
:09:37. > :09:40.plenty to say without doing that. I didn't feel that she was actually
:09:41. > :09:44.the strongest member of her own panel this evening. Ian? Oh, I
:09:45. > :09:50.disagree with that actually. I think she was by far the most coherent and
:09:51. > :09:54.effective despite having a very difficult line to negotiate because
:09:55. > :09:58.of course, she is a nationalist, arguing to remain in the union. The
:09:59. > :10:02.European Union. And she was using a lot of the same kind of phrases,
:10:03. > :10:15."We're better together. We're stronger together." That were being
:10:16. > :10:21.used by the anti-independence, Better Together cap pain. It was a
:10:22. > :10:25.nick cl and Boris grudge match. Boris was blown off the stage partly
:10:26. > :10:31.by very personal attacks such as the one we heard from Nicola, but Amber
:10:32. > :10:37.Rudd. They are in the same Government, the same Conservative
:10:38. > :10:41.Government, they are colleagues, but here was Amber Rudd saying she
:10:42. > :10:46.wouldn't trust him to drive him home back at night from a party! An
:10:47. > :10:52.extraordinary thing to come out, but effective. Might that not be a
:10:53. > :10:55.problem in the future for Boris Johnson? That's clearly going to be
:10:56. > :10:58.a problem for Boris Johnson. The make-up of the panel was
:10:59. > :11:02.interesting. We don't often see five women and one man and I thought that
:11:03. > :11:09.made it more interesting. Did it work as three on three though? Would
:11:10. > :11:13.it be better as one on one? I think she on three is difficult. It is my
:11:14. > :11:16.turn, your turn, my turn and for those following the debate, there
:11:17. > :11:19.was nothing new that was said. In some ways, it would be more
:11:20. > :11:22.interesting to have people who actually worked in the EU, so for
:11:23. > :11:28.example, I don't know why we don't have a debate between two judges,
:11:29. > :11:33.one who is for Remain and one who is for Leave so we can ask questions
:11:34. > :11:37.about how the legal system works and there is controversy about the
:11:38. > :11:41.figure on the Leave's battlebus, you know, and that just rumbles on no
:11:42. > :11:46.matter who says it is a lie, they still carry on using. I didn't think
:11:47. > :11:59.it was an effective way of throwing any light on the matter.
:12:00. > :12:06.The figure ?350 million was on the bus, on Boris' bus has been widely
:12:07. > :12:11.condemned, by all manner of authorities, not just the UK
:12:12. > :12:16.treasury, but also the Institute for Fiscal Studies saying it is bogus.
:12:17. > :12:23.Nevertheless, it was interesting how they managed that and it was quite
:12:24. > :12:29.interesting how few, how little this revolved around the sterile exchange
:12:30. > :12:35.of figures and economic postures and what the Leave people did there was
:12:36. > :12:39.just try to blitz all that by coming back relentlessly again and again
:12:40. > :12:42.and so much I was almost throwing my remote at the television screen
:12:43. > :12:48.saying we must take back control. Take back control. That's how they
:12:49. > :12:52.resolved the contradiction about the ?350 million, we want control over
:12:53. > :12:56.the ?350 million, they are not saying necessarily they lose ?350
:12:57. > :13:02.million, but they lose control of ?350 million, but that was the theme
:13:03. > :13:06.and I have to say the Leave side were much more co-ordinated in their
:13:07. > :13:10.message and though it was relentless and mind numbing and infuriating
:13:11. > :13:13.they got it across that it was a question about taking control and
:13:14. > :13:16.really it seemed to me the central issue in the debate tonight was
:13:17. > :13:21.about sovereignty and that's quite interesting because I think the
:13:22. > :13:26.debate is now moving on from, as I say, this exchange of economic
:13:27. > :13:29.statistics, which people have found alienating and basically they don't
:13:30. > :13:33.believe figures from either side now and it is moving on to the questions
:13:34. > :13:37.about democracy and sovereignty and that could be very dangerous, I
:13:38. > :13:41.think, for the remainers. Well, away from the TV debate, the big guns
:13:42. > :13:45.were out in force across the UK talking about Europe, the
:13:46. > :13:50.Chancellor, three former Prime Ministers, one former Labour Party
:13:51. > :13:56.leader and an SNP deputy leader. So you can tell it is getting serious.
:13:57. > :14:01.Serious. These two were speaking in Glasgow tonight. The European Union
:14:02. > :14:04.is the their great friend and if we leave, they will be in terrible
:14:05. > :14:07.trouble. It doesn't make any sense for a country that needs jobs and
:14:08. > :14:10.that believes in full employment, that wants people to be working, it
:14:11. > :14:14.doesn't make any sense to leave the European Union. So Katie, a lot of
:14:15. > :14:19.focus on jobs, the economy, what do you think of the arguments being put
:14:20. > :14:23.forward? Well, I mean, I think they are all valid arguments. The thing
:14:24. > :14:27.about the EU referendum debate is there are good arguments to be made
:14:28. > :14:31.on both sides. I think sort of when they reduce them to a shouting
:14:32. > :14:34.match, it is not terribly helpful. I think sometimes it would be more
:14:35. > :14:40.useful to have a conversation about it, but it is not very easy to do
:14:41. > :14:42.that. So what we do end up with is these terribly superficial and
:14:43. > :14:47.general assertions, we will be better off, there will be more jobs
:14:48. > :14:51.if we remain and we will get more control back if we leave, but no
:14:52. > :14:55.examples are given as to what this will mean in our daily lives. Ian,
:14:56. > :15:00.we saw two former Prime Ministers standing shoulder-to-shoulder,
:15:01. > :15:07.warning that the unity of the UK itself is on the ballot paper? Well,
:15:08. > :15:11.the irony of ironies, they are two unionists saying that if there is
:15:12. > :15:18.Brexit it means there is more likely to be an independent Scotland. On
:15:19. > :15:21.the same day you heard Nicola Sturgeon insisting she wants to
:15:22. > :15:26.remain within the European Union and opposing Brexit. There are a number
:15:27. > :15:34.of ironies in this debate. But I think what's also quite interesting
:15:35. > :15:39.is that the Leave side have begun to neutralise the project fear. The
:15:40. > :15:42.first of all identified project fear rather as it was in the Scottish
:15:43. > :15:49.referendum, the claims there would be, people would be ?4600 a year
:15:50. > :15:54.poorer. There would be 830,000 jobs lost and house prices would fall by
:15:55. > :15:59.80%. They have managed to neutralise the figures by saying they are just
:16:00. > :16:03.scaremongering and people have stopped believing the figures,
:16:04. > :16:07.stopped trusting them, at any rate and that's a very ding are yous
:16:08. > :16:10.situation for Remain to be in because it is rather what happened
:16:11. > :16:13.towards the latter stages of the Scottish independence referendum
:16:14. > :16:17.when we had the same project fear, many of the same figures and the
:16:18. > :16:20.same claims from the people people, but a lot of people in the end
:16:21. > :16:24.stopped believing them. So, it is interesting. There is a lot to play
:16:25. > :16:30.for. OK, for now, there we must leave it. , antibiotic and Katie.
:16:31. > :16:34.Now away from the Brexit debate, it was all about attainment, how to
:16:35. > :16:39.close that stubborn educational gap. The Education Secretary pledged an
:16:40. > :16:43.extra ?20 million for schools, but new figures showed a fall in the
:16:44. > :16:46.number of 18-year-olds from Scotland's poorest areas going to
:16:47. > :16:50.university. The First Minister acknowledged there is work to do,
:16:51. > :16:55.but said for people of all ages the numbers have actually gone up. Well,
:16:56. > :17:00.one private school head has weighed into the debate saying the gap is
:17:01. > :17:06.narrowing because some able children in state schools aren't being
:17:07. > :17:12.stretched. Earlier Cameron Wylie joined me and a head from a state
:17:13. > :17:17.school was here in the studio. Cameron Wylie, writing in a personal
:17:18. > :17:20.capacity you've said that the attainment gap is narrowing, but
:17:21. > :17:24.because of a move towards the middle. What do you mean by that?
:17:25. > :17:29.Well, the danger for the issue of the attainment gap is that, in
:17:30. > :17:33.attempting to close the attainment gap, we have got to consider the
:17:34. > :17:38.needs of the people who are doing well, as well as the needs of the
:17:39. > :17:42.people who are doing less well. It is commendable to close the social
:17:43. > :17:47.attainment gap, but we need to be careful about how we do it. How do
:17:48. > :17:50.you close the gap if everybody moves up the way, doesn't the gap stay the
:17:51. > :17:53.same? Well, it should be the intention of the forces of
:17:54. > :17:57.Government it make sure that everyone in Scotland's attainment
:17:58. > :18:02.improves at the same time, I'm happy, very happy indeed, that the
:18:03. > :18:08.social economic status of should be a part of that, and I think the
:18:09. > :18:13.private sector does very well in its contribution to closing the
:18:14. > :18:19.attainment. You are head of a state school in a deprived part of
:18:20. > :18:22.Glasgow. Are pupils in danger of being left behind in the move to
:18:23. > :18:26.close the attainment gap? No, absolutely not because the advice we
:18:27. > :18:31.get nationally and one of the recommendations in the recent OECD
:18:32. > :18:37.report was that we had to do two things at the same time. We had to
:18:38. > :18:40.strive to raise attainment for all young people and certainly, at St
:18:41. > :18:46.Andrew's secondary, that's the mission of the school, but we had to
:18:47. > :18:49.be sophisticated and rigorous in identifying where the gaps are and
:18:50. > :18:53.being relentless in meeting them and it is about the dual-purpose in
:18:54. > :18:57.everything we're trying to do in schools, which is driving the work
:18:58. > :19:01.of schools at the moment. Well, Cameron Wylie, you've said that
:19:02. > :19:06.parents are moving children from state to private schools in the
:19:07. > :19:09.third year of secondary because they are not doing stretched enough by
:19:10. > :19:13.the curriculum for excellence. What's your evidence for that? Well,
:19:14. > :19:16.the broad general education which has been brought in as part of the
:19:17. > :19:21.senior phase of curriculum for excellence has two problems attached
:19:22. > :19:24.to it. The first is that second year was always the year traditionally in
:19:25. > :19:29.Scotland where we had to watch to make sure that pupils didn't tread
:19:30. > :19:32.water. That danger, where pupils not have chosen their subjects, and are
:19:33. > :19:35.therefore becoming less interested in things is now extending into
:19:36. > :19:44.third year and at the same time, what is happening is that in fourth
:19:45. > :19:49.year, there are less choices available to pupils. Creating broad
:19:50. > :19:54.general education in S3, curriculum for excellence created a swigs where
:19:55. > :19:56.there is less broad education in year four. You are hearing from
:19:57. > :20:01.parents saying this is the reason they want to move to a private
:20:02. > :20:05.school? Definitely. Because their subject choices in S4 don't extend
:20:06. > :20:08.beyond five choices at national five or national four and that means
:20:09. > :20:12.subject choices are very, very limited and they just feel the more
:20:13. > :20:17.able children aren't being stretched. Is this a picture you
:20:18. > :20:21.recognise? No, absolutely not. There is a number of things in what
:20:22. > :20:26.Cameron said that are far away from what I recognise. Firstly, there is
:20:27. > :20:31.no suggestion that there should be no choice in schools before third
:20:32. > :20:35.year. In fact, national advice is that there should be increased
:20:36. > :20:39.specialise ag as young people move through the broad general education
:20:40. > :20:45.particularly into third year with a view to the senior phase. Secondly,
:20:46. > :20:49.we were tied then to a system where people only took young people so
:20:50. > :20:53.far. They knew where young people had to be by the end of the first
:20:54. > :20:57.year of standard grade and that's as far as young people were taken. The
:20:58. > :21:02.broad general education allows us now to extend young people much
:21:03. > :21:07.further, we have scope to stretch the more able, support those that
:21:08. > :21:12.need help. But what are we to make of the new figures today that show
:21:13. > :21:15.that the number of 18-year-olds from disadvantaged areas applying and
:21:16. > :21:21.getting accepted to university has fallen? Well, it picks up on an
:21:22. > :21:25.issue that's been in Scottish society now for a substantial period
:21:26. > :21:28.of time and the Government have recognised that by setting up a
:21:29. > :21:32.commission and widening access. The answer to that question is very
:21:33. > :21:36.complex and it is one of the things that the commission certainly
:21:37. > :21:40.identified was that the answer is a systems answer. It is not about one
:21:41. > :21:44.particular sector or one particular group. It is about the whole of the
:21:45. > :21:49.education system in Scotland working together to deal with that
:21:50. > :21:54.particular issue. Can I just pick up one other wee issue that Cameron
:21:55. > :21:59.made? It was about the slack in S2 and it seems strange to me that
:22:00. > :22:05.having recognised that, independent schools have staged with the same
:22:06. > :22:09.structure which I assume still has that slack, part of it, it would be
:22:10. > :22:13.really interested to know what they have done to address that. Briefly
:22:14. > :22:18.on that, Cameron Wylie? Well, what we've done is avoided the situation
:22:19. > :22:21.where we extended the slack into S3, what I can't understand about
:22:22. > :22:24.Gerry's argument, the idea that you are talking about stretching the
:22:25. > :22:28.most able children while at the same time you're bringing them down to
:22:29. > :22:32.five subjects in S4, thus making their choices for crucial S5 even
:22:33. > :22:36.more difficult. You can't take being in a situation whereby previously
:22:37. > :22:40.they were doing accept or eight subjects in S4 and now they are
:22:41. > :22:46.doing five and say they are being stretched, I don't think. That's not
:22:47. > :22:50.a common pattern. In St Andrew's secondary school, there are a group
:22:51. > :22:55.of people who are doing five subjects because they go to college
:22:56. > :23:02.two afternoons a week and Cameron and I agree on that. We have a group
:23:03. > :23:06.of young people who do seven subjects, seven national fives,
:23:07. > :23:10.national fours by the end of S4 and we have a group of our most able who
:23:11. > :23:14.are doing six subjects, but they are doing them at higher level from the
:23:15. > :23:19.start of S4, not spending time studying at a level below their
:23:20. > :23:24.ability for a period of time which is unnecessary and actually holds
:23:25. > :23:27.them back. OK. I'm frayed we are going to have to leave there for
:23:28. > :23:33.this evening. Thank you for coming in. Well, here to talk about this
:23:34. > :23:37.and the day's news, I'm joined by Dominic Hind and Penny Taylor. Good
:23:38. > :23:40.to see both of you. Just picking up on that discussion there. What do
:23:41. > :23:44.you make of the claims that parents are turning their back on State
:23:45. > :23:47.schools because their children, their able kids aren't being
:23:48. > :23:53.stretched enough by the State system? The people that I speak to
:23:54. > :23:57.who are considering private schooling as an option for their
:23:58. > :24:00.children never use that as a reason when they are telling me that they
:24:01. > :24:05.are thilg about this. They talk about wanting to give their
:24:06. > :24:09.children, "The best chances." You know, whether they are right or
:24:10. > :24:13.wrong and actually, I think basically it boils down to wanting
:24:14. > :24:19.to buy them privilege and that for me, is the reason that people are
:24:20. > :24:25.quoting it is not about wanting them to be necessarily pushed harder.
:24:26. > :24:28.When you think Scotland had a worldwide reputation for the quality
:24:29. > :24:33.of its education system and it wasn't its private education system,
:24:34. > :24:37.it was its state education system. And if parents who want their
:24:38. > :24:43.children to, you know, if they want them to be pushed, take them out of
:24:44. > :24:48.the state system, arguably that's damaging our state system. I feel
:24:49. > :24:51.very, very strongly that, you know, resourcing and consolidating that is
:24:52. > :24:58.vital for the vast majority of people in this Scotland. Scotland
:24:59. > :25:02.and adverts for the private school system can run in fair have you said
:25:03. > :25:06.forms. The headteacher that you heard there, Cameron Wylie, he was
:25:07. > :25:10.very definitely linking it to the curriculum for excellence sh the
:25:11. > :25:13.broadening out of a secondary education that parents were coming
:25:14. > :25:17.to him and the numbers were up on last year saying, you know, we're
:25:18. > :25:21.worried about this. We are worried our children aren't being stretched
:25:22. > :25:34.enough? Private schools are businesses and they make money.
:25:35. > :25:37.James kelman is 70 and he is one of the stark critics of education in
:25:38. > :25:40.Scotland. What you have seen in that report with the headmaster of a
:25:41. > :25:43.private school saying that, is a perfect example. The education
:25:44. > :25:46.system in Scotland is very, very divided and it is not going to get
:25:47. > :25:51.any better if private schools are seen as a better option. Well, what
:25:52. > :25:55.about attainmed, closing this attainment gap? They are talking
:25:56. > :25:58.about trying to increase attainment at the top end and the bottom end,
:25:59. > :26:03.but surely, that means the gap remains the same if you do that? But
:26:04. > :26:09.attainment as the headmaster... Is that possible? It is about a great
:26:10. > :26:13.deal more than what happens within, you know, the few years when you're
:26:14. > :26:18.in secondary education. It is about, it is a whole society thing, I
:26:19. > :26:24.think. Everybody recognises that now in Scotland. Is throwing money at it
:26:25. > :26:28.going to work? I mean the Education Secretary hay nounsed an extra ?20
:26:29. > :26:33.million targeted at schools in deprived areas. Is that in the end
:26:34. > :26:37.going to make a difference? If private schools bring anything to
:26:38. > :26:41.the party, it is staff to pupil ratio, it is the resources that they
:26:42. > :26:45.might have for young people. And if putting more money into the state
:26:46. > :26:50.system is going to close that gap and bring people up, great. Bring it
:26:51. > :26:56.on. Are you concerned about the figures that are out today showing
:26:57. > :26:59.that actually the number of 18-year-olds from deprived areas
:27:00. > :27:02.applying and getting accepted to university has actually dropped over
:27:03. > :27:08.the last year? That is of great concern. The problem, it is not a
:27:09. > :27:12.problem for jaofrts to solve or for schools to solve, it is about
:27:13. > :27:17.inequality in society as a whole. If you don't solve the fact that people
:27:18. > :27:19.are going into the school system of different levels and economic
:27:20. > :27:22.support and emotional development they will come out different as
:27:23. > :27:26.well. It is about how do you sell yourself? What's your personal
:27:27. > :27:32.statement to get in? And actually when you analyse those university
:27:33. > :27:36.figures, the West Coast universities are maintaining the balance that
:27:37. > :27:41.they had last year or even exceeding it. Strathclyde are taking more
:27:42. > :27:47.people from poorer communities than they were before. St Andrew's has
:27:48. > :27:54.seen a massive drop from 25 pupils, 25 only, last year, down to 15 this
:27:55. > :27:59.year. So you think universities... I would asking those universities what
:28:00. > :28:02.are they not doing? Why are they not interested in taking people from our
:28:03. > :28:06.more deprived communities who have all the ability to get into
:28:07. > :28:12.university, who are not being given places. I want to know the answer to
:28:13. > :28:15.that. If more students from deprived areas get into university, then that
:28:16. > :28:18.leaves a bit of a problem for the headteacher of the private school
:28:19. > :28:24.because there will be a lot of disappointed parents? It does and I
:28:25. > :28:33.think it would be a fantastic thing because it shows that going to
:28:34. > :28:36.private school doesn't get you in. It buys you privilege, arguably,
:28:37. > :28:40.whether it ought to is another question and that's for further
:28:41. > :28:45.debate. Well, that will have to be for another night. Thank you very
:28:46. > :28:48.much Penny and Dominic. That's it for tonight and for this week. Thank
:28:49. > :28:52.you for watching. Andrew will be back here on Monday at the usual
:28:53. > :29:02.time. Join him then if you can. Until then, bye-bye.
:29:03. > :29:05.Both sides of the EU debate are about to face tough questions
:29:06. > :29:11.Join us for two special programmes and see whether you're persuaded
:29:12. > :29:16.by the answers from the Leave and the Remain camps.