:00:00. > :00:26.Boris Johnson goes head-to-head with Ruth Davidson on Europe.
:00:27. > :00:29.Hello and welcome to Scotland 2016.
:00:30. > :00:32.With just 48 hours to go, the temperature is cranked up
:00:33. > :00:35.in the last of the primetime TV debates.
:00:36. > :00:43.What will sway those who have still not made their minds up?
:00:44. > :00:49.And travel misery for commuters, as rail workers stage their first
:00:50. > :01:08.With just over a day to go until Britain's
:01:09. > :01:10.referendum on EU membership, prominent figures from the rival
:01:11. > :01:13.camps squared up in the biggest TV debate of the campaign.
:01:14. > :01:16.Yet again, the issues of the economy and immigration dominated.
:01:17. > :01:19.There were plenty of "Blue on Blue" attacks.
:01:20. > :01:22.Brexit campaigner and former London Mayor, Boris Johnson,
:01:23. > :01:25.repeatedly clashed with his fellow Tory and Remain supporter,
:01:26. > :01:28.the Scottish Conservative leader, Ruth Davidson.
:01:29. > :01:32.Listening to it all was our political
:01:33. > :01:43.Pretty fiery stuff between Boris Johnson and Ruth Davidson.
:01:44. > :01:50.Indeed. It was a heated debate as both sides sought to really
:01:51. > :01:55.consolidate those arguments we've heard from them over the last few
:01:56. > :02:00.months. I think some of the most fiery and heated exchanges there
:02:01. > :02:04.were between you Ruth Davidson and Boris Johnson. We have become
:02:05. > :02:11.accustomed over the last few months to these tori on Tory attacks and
:02:12. > :02:15.debates and discussions. I don't think that should take away from the
:02:16. > :02:19.fact some of them are really quite extraordinary. This is a party in
:02:20. > :02:29.Government which is sharply divided between some rather key figures. We
:02:30. > :02:34.had Ruth Davidson rattling off a list of senior Conservatives on the
:02:35. > :02:39.Leave side talking about potential losses after a Brexit. We had Boris
:02:40. > :02:42.Johnson saying back that she was making extraordinary claims and
:02:43. > :02:46.talking down the UK in those exchanges. That has a listen to one
:02:47. > :02:54.of the exchanges between Boris Johnson and Ruth Davidson. Remember
:02:55. > :02:58.these are two people who are seen as potential extremely senior figures
:02:59. > :03:02.in the party in the future. Boris Johnson said, will there be job
:03:03. > :03:09.losses? There might either might not. That is not good enough. That
:03:10. > :03:18.is not good enough. It hasn't taken that long. How many jobs will go?
:03:19. > :03:22.They began by telling us they were going to have a positive and
:03:23. > :03:33.patriotically case and airbags to project fear within moments.
:03:34. > :03:40.Extraordinary stuff. No surprises that immigration was a hot topic.
:03:41. > :03:45.Absolutely. We have spoken Sony times over the last few weeks about
:03:46. > :03:52.the two big issues that they love talking about. The economy and a lot
:03:53. > :03:56.tonight also on the Leave side favourite subject immigration. Again
:03:57. > :04:01.some really tense exchanges between the two sides. This time between the
:04:02. > :04:07.current Mayor of London and the old Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan and
:04:08. > :04:11.Boris Johnson respectively. On the Remains out, Sadiq Khan was keen to
:04:12. > :04:16.say that immigration is good for the country and has helped boost and
:04:17. > :04:20.support and maintain our public services. Some agreement therefrom
:04:21. > :04:25.Boris Johnson. He said that immigration has also been good for
:04:26. > :04:29.the country. Perhaps more of an effort from the Conservatives on the
:04:30. > :04:34.Leave side to distance themselves from you get an Nigel Farage on that
:04:35. > :04:38.subject. That is about as fire as the agreement between the two went.
:04:39. > :04:46.Let's listen to what both of them had to say about each other's views
:04:47. > :04:50.on immigration. EU migrants, up more than 130,000 work in the NHS and
:04:51. > :04:55.social care. Thank you. Working in our schools and our construction
:04:56. > :05:03.sector, thank you. More than 1.5 million Brits are employed by
:05:04. > :05:07.countries owned by EU citizens. The problem is you might start off by
:05:08. > :05:10.saying how wonderful immigration is, but your campaign hasn't been
:05:11. > :05:18.project fear, it has been project hates. Somebody on the panel
:05:19. > :05:21.opposite who said only a couple of years ago, in the past we were too
:05:22. > :05:27.quick to dismiss concerns about immigration, even worse accused
:05:28. > :05:36.people are prejudiced. Who do you think that was? It was Sadiq Khan. I
:05:37. > :05:40.do agree with him, I think you need a grown-up approach to this. I am
:05:41. > :05:45.passionately a believer in immigration, but it has to be
:05:46. > :05:51.controlled. When you have numbers running at 330,000 net globally,
:05:52. > :05:55.184,000 net from the EU, 77,000 coming without even the offer of a
:05:56. > :06:02.job. It is obviously time to take back control. That was an exchange
:06:03. > :06:07.from the main panel in the debates. There was also a secondary panel of
:06:08. > :06:16.other political figures and John Ellis, colonists, commentators. On
:06:17. > :06:20.that was the SNP must you serve has been leading the Remain campaign for
:06:21. > :06:24.the last few weeks. He wanted to make it clear in no uncertain terms
:06:25. > :06:31.that he thought that the immigration debate has been extremely improved
:06:32. > :06:38.taste of the last few weeks. Here is what he had to say and also the dark
:06:39. > :06:42.of another vote Leave commentator. I don't care if it is unpopular let's
:06:43. > :06:48.stick with the facts. Migrants contribute more than they take out.
:06:49. > :06:52.I had been asked to later pressed at the state of the debate over
:06:53. > :06:56.immigration. The worst of that we saw last week when Nigel Farage
:06:57. > :07:03.unveiled a xenophobic and frankly bordering on racist poster. Reid
:07:04. > :07:09.have nothing against migrants, her married one. I think it is rich that
:07:10. > :07:12.the Remains site I so devoid of any arguments that they have to smear is
:07:13. > :07:18.as racists. We are not, we love our country. There was a lot of talk
:07:19. > :07:23.inevitably about sovereignty and about taking back control. Taking
:07:24. > :07:30.back control was a term we had a number of times from the Leave
:07:31. > :07:33.campaign. It attracted some groans from the audience at times. They
:07:34. > :07:38.will be happy that they got that message over. That is why they were
:07:39. > :07:42.happy to see it over and over again. That final big issue that was
:07:43. > :07:46.discussed by the final tonight was sovereignty. Whether the UK is
:07:47. > :07:51.better off being at the table and being part of discussions as part of
:07:52. > :07:55.the EU are whether we would be more successful if we break off and make
:07:56. > :08:01.our own agreements and do our own thing. Again, tense exchanges.
:08:02. > :08:08.Between two Conservatives. Again featuring Ruth Davidson, this time
:08:09. > :08:11.against the Tory MP Andrea Leadsom. So magnitude is that 60% of our
:08:12. > :08:21.rules and regulations, from the European Union. Is a long handled
:08:22. > :08:25.you can do that, you can do this because of the EU. The truth is
:08:26. > :08:30.there are five presidents of the EU. Can anyone name them? Did anyone
:08:31. > :08:33.vote for them? No. You didn't vote for them because you are not allowed
:08:34. > :08:39.to vote for them and you can pick them out either. You're being asked
:08:40. > :08:44.to make a decision that is irreversible and can be changed. We
:08:45. > :08:48.are being sold it on a lie. They lied about Turkey balls entry to
:08:49. > :08:52.Europe and they lied about the European army, because we have a
:08:53. > :08:55.veto over that. They put it in a leaflet and they lied about this
:08:56. > :09:03.tonight to. It is not good enough and you deserve the truth. The last
:09:04. > :09:07.big debate there of this campaign at all those weeks. Did we learn
:09:08. > :09:11.anything particularly new tonight? I don't think so. Did we see both
:09:12. > :09:16.sides really consolidate their message and make the argument is
:09:17. > :09:20.that they had been making very forcibly? Absolutely. In just 48
:09:21. > :09:22.hours' time we will be mulling over whether or not either side has been
:09:23. > :09:26.able to convince and not people. So, time is running out
:09:27. > :09:29.to make your mind up, You would have to have
:09:30. > :09:33.been on another planet if you had not heard
:09:34. > :09:36.the arguments on either side by now. In the end, it is a personal
:09:37. > :09:39.choice for all of us. Nick has been out meeting
:09:40. > :09:42.ordinary voters, to find out what is motivating them
:09:43. > :09:54.to vote on Thursday. Our economic security is paramount.
:09:55. > :09:59.It is stronger if we stay. If we leave, we pitted at risk. We can
:10:00. > :10:02.only control the number of people that come here from the European
:10:03. > :10:06.Union if we vote to leave and take back control of immigration. We have
:10:07. > :10:14.heard a lot about those issues the campaign. About was leaving her
:10:15. > :10:17.saying would mean for immigration, sovereignty, the economy. It is
:10:18. > :10:22.difficult to work out what is true and what is the campaign claim. Some
:10:23. > :10:29.people there are very real issues in their lives which are influencing
:10:30. > :10:34.their decision. Come on, Oscar. Professional dog walker thinks the
:10:35. > :10:37.EU leads the way with free movement and we would be walking away from a
:10:38. > :10:43.deal that works. The global issue about being in a single market is
:10:44. > :10:48.definitely important for me. Being able to travel with my dog is also
:10:49. > :10:53.important. I really think that that will make a difference for a lots of
:10:54. > :10:58.dog owners that like to travel abroad. Art dealer disagrees, he
:10:59. > :11:04.thinks red tape is proving too costly and damaging his industry.
:11:05. > :11:08.Right now the EU have a directive to pass but all art is coming into the
:11:09. > :11:13.EU. If I bought something in New York from a saleroom I would have to
:11:14. > :11:19.get a passport to bring it into Britain. I can't understand why they
:11:20. > :11:23.should ask for that. Inspecting his latest project this physics research
:11:24. > :11:29.at Strathclyde University thinks leaving would have a detrimental
:11:30. > :11:33.impact on the sciences. The EU funds a lot of academic research in
:11:34. > :11:38.Scotland and we do well out of the EU funding. Our membership to the EU
:11:39. > :11:42.allows us to collaborate and to work alongside researchers from all over
:11:43. > :11:52.Europe. They can come you to work and vice versa. Composer Eddie quit
:11:53. > :11:59.as a union representative so he could oppose the EU. He is worried
:12:00. > :12:04.about what a future in Europe would mean for the arts. Cultural services
:12:05. > :12:06.are lined up for a presentation if the European Union signed up for the
:12:07. > :12:12.trade and services agreement. These are big threat to anything we hold
:12:13. > :12:23.dear as collectors benefits to our societies. Robert Hind works from
:12:24. > :12:27.his home in Glasgow. Easy legal counsel free communications company
:12:28. > :12:32.operating across Europe and he thinks changes to legal frameworks
:12:33. > :12:37.after leaving could prove costly. We would lose business throughout
:12:38. > :12:40.Europe and would not be able to sell our products throughout Europe. The
:12:41. > :12:44.regulating standard fridge transistor and networks were to
:12:45. > :12:47.change the nightmare would be 20 different systems throughout Europe
:12:48. > :12:54.as opposed to the one system which we have with the European single
:12:55. > :12:59.market. For this changeover and trade unionist the future for
:13:00. > :13:04.workers is bright at a Leave fault. I believe in the British worker. We
:13:05. > :13:10.invented the trade union movement. I see no reason to suppose that people
:13:11. > :13:13.are now going to lie back and allowed the Tories are anybody else
:13:14. > :13:20.to walk all over them. That is not going to happen. Six voters, six
:13:21. > :13:22.views, six more things to think about on Thursday.
:13:23. > :13:24.Tens of thousands of passengers had their travel plans disrupted
:13:25. > :13:27.today, as ScotRail workers began the first of a series
:13:28. > :13:31.A total of 15 rail services were cancelled, while the frequency
:13:32. > :13:39.The dispute is over proposals to operate more
:13:40. > :13:43.The RMT union say they are concerned about trains running safely,
:13:44. > :13:55.but ScotRail say those claims do not bear any scrutiny.
:13:56. > :14:10.The has been a catalogue of incidents with driver only trains.
:14:11. > :14:13.On a normal day, travelling with the service with the conductor, at no
:14:14. > :14:15.point have we said there would not be a second person.
:14:16. > :14:18.Just before we came on air, I spoke to the transport
:14:19. > :14:24.commentator, Christian Wolmar, from our London studio.
:14:25. > :14:37.The RMT CV are concerned about the safety of driver only trains. RB
:14:38. > :14:42.rate to be concerned? The additional evidence that that is the greater
:14:43. > :14:52.degree of risk. I understand there are concerns about the sort of job
:14:53. > :14:57.conductors are doing, but I think the safety factor are somewhat
:14:58. > :15:04.overplayed. The union is seen in the has already been a catalogue of
:15:05. > :15:08.incidents. Does it not stand to reason from a passenger point of
:15:09. > :15:16.view that it would be safer if there was somebody via. I certainly think
:15:17. > :15:20.there is a different reason and I think it makes sense for the railway
:15:21. > :15:28.companies to have somebody on latrine checking tickets and
:15:29. > :15:40.collecting fears. That has been the case for many years. But I do not
:15:41. > :15:44.think there is the situation we are passengers are facing a greater
:15:45. > :15:52.danger. At night, there should be people. That does not mean you have
:15:53. > :15:58.do have on the overhaul tame. What is the situation else we are in
:15:59. > :16:02.London and on the continent? It is very patchy. That is why this is
:16:03. > :16:07.very strange. This goes back to the days of British real when there were
:16:08. > :16:14.actually two people in the cabin. There was the driver and a fire
:16:15. > :16:26.officer. This was in the days of diesel and electric trains, we then
:16:27. > :16:32.had one person in the. The notion thinking that you could have driver
:16:33. > :16:38.only operated trains. So that is more fundamental issue here. I think
:16:39. > :16:46.there is a worry about if you allow some reductions in some trains, then
:16:47. > :16:51.conductors across the piece would be taken off. That would be a terrible
:16:52. > :16:57.mistake. That would reduce the level of customer service. And I think it
:16:58. > :17:03.would make the people feel less safe, even if the reality was that
:17:04. > :17:11.they were not. Auditions to be a lot of confusion among passengers with
:17:12. > :17:18.regard to this. ScotRail Passing 60% of passengers already take trains
:17:19. > :17:27.which do not have a card. That is the point of confusion. ScotRail
:17:28. > :17:34.I've seen the want the guards to do a different job, as opposed to the
:17:35. > :17:38.been fewer of them. They want them to be doing something else other
:17:39. > :17:43.than opening and closing the doors. They want to see them dealing with
:17:44. > :17:54.customers and dealing with ticketing. We have a similar dispute
:17:55. > :18:03.in London, on Southern trains, with identical issues. Do you think the
:18:04. > :18:09.union is right to be concerned that this could be all about
:18:10. > :18:17.cost-cutting? That is the trump card. I think there is something of
:18:18. > :18:23.an element in that. The train companies perhaps one to weaken the
:18:24. > :18:30.strength of the unions and that is why the unions are putting up stuff
:18:31. > :18:36.such a strong fate. It is seen as stream companies getting a foot in
:18:37. > :18:46.the door and reading later onto CDs reductions in staff. I think that
:18:47. > :18:51.would be a big mistake. If they do want people on latrine and the do
:18:52. > :18:56.want to have the checked. It would be a mistake in terms of revenue
:18:57. > :19:00.potential of the take away the guards. I think actually
:19:01. > :19:06.fundamentally, the companies and the unions actually have the same
:19:07. > :19:10.interest. Another strike is planned for Thursday and again at the
:19:11. > :19:15.weekend. Who do you think is going to be first to barge in this
:19:16. > :19:22.dispute? I think train companies are going to be worried about the loss
:19:23. > :19:30.of revenue and the government in Scotland are going to be worried
:19:31. > :19:35.about continued disputes. I think it may be train companies which blink
:19:36. > :19:36.first. The do not want a lengthy dispute, because it will be so
:19:37. > :19:40.costly. Joining me now to talk
:19:41. > :19:42.about the day's news are The Herald's Scottish
:19:43. > :19:44.Political Editor, Tom Gordon, and the broadcaster Liz Leonard.
:19:45. > :19:57.Welcome to you both. Letters go back to the European
:19:58. > :20:08.Union and the beat. What did you make of it? It was fairly well
:20:09. > :20:15.balanced, I thought. I think it was the basic messages, a lot about the
:20:16. > :20:24.economy on one side, a lot about immigration on the other. I think it
:20:25. > :20:30.became clear that Ruth Davidson was sort of fee of two mark Boris
:20:31. > :20:34.Johnson. Whenever she said something, he -- she seemed to be up
:20:35. > :20:45.there to challenge. Big rather antagonistic. She was rather
:20:46. > :20:51.dismissive about these three people over the, two of whom we are in the
:20:52. > :20:59.Conservative Party. There was no attempt at hating it. We do you
:21:00. > :21:07.think the Conservatives can go after all this? I it very much depends on
:21:08. > :21:20.how the schools. The act really very evaded. You could be a very messy
:21:21. > :21:24.aftermath, come what may. They will be very divided after the next
:21:25. > :21:33.election, but it depends whether the Labour Party can actually get
:21:34. > :21:42.themselves organised. What did you think of the performances? I think
:21:43. > :21:47.to a later -- lesser or more degree, they all actually performed well.
:21:48. > :21:56.Ruth Davidson knew that her target was Boris Johnson. She also
:21:57. > :22:02.challenged the others. The claims about 30 within the European Union.
:22:03. > :22:10.She was very fiery. Will that have increased standing here? Yes, I
:22:11. > :22:18.think it will. It was the biggest political debate that I can remember
:22:19. > :22:30.seeing her in. It was an extraordinary thing to see. Yes, and
:22:31. > :22:39.I thought she stood up to it very well. Reports in the newspapers last
:22:40. > :22:49.night, seeing that the Conservatives should split in the event of a vote
:22:50. > :22:59.for us to leave the European Union. In a way, there's a logic it. She
:23:00. > :23:05.has done a lot of work recasting the Conservative Party in Scotland. She
:23:06. > :23:09.has taken to new levels of support in here. The association with Boris
:23:10. > :23:21.Johnson in London might undo some of that work. You can see the logic,
:23:22. > :23:30.but the problem is she stood for election as the Scottish leader five
:23:31. > :23:35.years ago, to sort it would be a fairly tough sell for her to make,
:23:36. > :23:41.even if she wanted that. There were quotes in the paper today seeing
:23:42. > :23:47.there was no substance to this. But maybe she was just putting that out
:23:48. > :23:52.in advance? She did say this five years ago. But if the country does
:23:53. > :23:58.vote to leave the European Union, it is a game changer. It is a game
:23:59. > :24:04.changer for Scotland, as well. It has consequences which have not been
:24:05. > :24:10.covered in the debate. That was understandable for a niche debate,
:24:11. > :24:14.but if the vote is for us to leave the European Union it has a
:24:15. > :24:23.fundamental impact on the United Kingdom and it will no longer be a
:24:24. > :24:32.united country. It gives a huge argument for another decision about
:24:33. > :24:38.whether to see whether to go. Ruth Davidson, it wouldn't surprise me if
:24:39. > :24:44.she said I am not going to do that. Her pitch in the Scottish
:24:45. > :24:49.Parliamentary elections, which was hugely successful, was vote for me
:24:50. > :24:53.in order to create a strong opposition in Scotland. It wasn't
:24:54. > :25:01.vote for me because I am a conservative. The want someone to
:25:02. > :25:16.hold the Scottish Government to account. In your paper, it was
:25:17. > :25:26.reported that the First Minister was open to discussions with regard to
:25:27. > :25:35.Scotland adopting the euro. A few years ago, it was forbidden to talk
:25:36. > :25:41.about the sort of thing, because they were adamant that we would
:25:42. > :25:46.still be using sterling. But there is a suggestion that if the
:25:47. > :25:50.appellant nosedived after an exit from the European Union, they could
:25:51. > :25:59.look to maybe adopting the Udall is the currency. Is there any surprise
:26:00. > :26:11.to this? It may be that Nicholas Dudgeon fuels compelled to support
:26:12. > :26:18.the case. But she said, where they are a vote to leave the European
:26:19. > :26:22.Union, then the Scottish National party may look at using the Udall.
:26:23. > :26:32.It was one of the options they would look at. But the CV would much
:26:33. > :26:40.rather use the opponent. Is there an interesting positioning on this?
:26:41. > :26:49.Currency was fairly significant in the last referendum. As a broadcast
:26:50. > :26:54.journalist, you have got people seeing what they think on camera. In
:26:55. > :27:02.print, you sometimes have to interpret what people say. I think
:27:03. > :27:13.the report suggests that one and one makes five. The quote for Nicola
:27:14. > :27:17.Sturgeon is not SNP policy to seek entry into the Udall at the moment.
:27:18. > :27:23.These are discussions we will have in the future of the vote is no, but
:27:24. > :27:31.I hope people across the United Kingdom will vote to stay. So to me,
:27:32. > :27:39.she was seeing, this is something that has to be decided once we
:27:40. > :27:48.discover the result. It is a straw in the wings. She did not seem
:27:49. > :27:52.normal. It is a possibility. Thank you for that.
:27:53. > :27:57.I am back again tomorrow night, usual time.