:00:00. > :00:00.The Scottish Government has pushed back implementation
:00:00. > :00:08.of its named person scheme to August next year,
:00:09. > :00:09.but is this a recognition by ministers
:00:10. > :00:35.Following a ruling by the Supreme Court
:00:36. > :00:38.over aspects of the named person scheme, John Swinney says it needs
:00:39. > :00:40.months of further consultation and won t be rolled out
:00:41. > :00:44.We'll ask what changes we're likely to see.
:00:45. > :00:47.In the week the government said education was the "defining mission"
:00:48. > :00:49.for ministers, we'll hear from a leading educational expert
:00:50. > :00:55.on the time frame for closing the attainment gap.
:00:56. > :00:58.And the prehistoric stone panel said to be the "most important in Europe"
:00:59. > :01:01.being unearthed for the first time in 50 years,
:01:02. > :01:13.next to a housing estate in Clydebank.
:01:14. > :01:16.The idea of assigning a named person to every child in Scotland has been
:01:17. > :01:29.The government hope it will reduce neglect. Those against say it is a
:01:30. > :01:32.form of state intrusion into family life.
:01:33. > :01:35.After they took their case to the Supreme Court John Swinney
:01:36. > :01:38.has now announced a consultation and a fresh look at the scheme
:01:39. > :01:40.which now wont be rolled out until August next year.
:01:41. > :01:48.Named person, the scheme that appoints a health visitor or worker
:01:49. > :01:52.to every child, to monitor their well-being, it has been the subject
:01:53. > :01:57.of controversy and legal challenges. Earlier this year the Supreme Court
:01:58. > :02:02.ruled some provisions of the system were unlawful, citing concerns over
:02:03. > :02:05.information sharing provisions which could breach the European Convention
:02:06. > :02:08.on Human Rights. Specifically Article eight on the right to
:02:09. > :02:15.privacy and family life. But judges also said the scheme was legitimate
:02:16. > :02:19.and benign. Today the Scottish Cup and announced a three-month public
:02:20. > :02:23.consultation on changes to the scheme. -- the Scottish Government
:02:24. > :02:29.announced. This does not pilot commitment but we will provide part
:02:30. > :02:33.of the legislation to ensure it is compatible with the European
:02:34. > :02:35.Convention on Human Rights. The Scottish Conservatives, the largest
:02:36. > :02:42.opposition party at Holyrood, what the scheme -- what the scheme
:02:43. > :02:46.scrapped. Do you believe the Scottish Government made a mistake
:02:47. > :02:50.by making a move away from the term welfare, which can be defined in
:02:51. > :02:55.statutory terms, to the term well-being, which has no clear
:02:56. > :02:57.definition and which as a result has lowered the possible threshold of
:02:58. > :03:03.intervention from at significant risk of harm to any minor concern
:03:04. > :03:07.about the child? I don't take the view that it should just be about
:03:08. > :03:12.welfare, I believe it should be well-being, at the heart of welfare,
:03:13. > :03:15.providing for early intervention activity, but there has to be
:03:16. > :03:19.appropriate threshold and that is the issue which now has to be
:03:20. > :03:25.examined as part of the analysis that I have undertaken. Scottish
:03:26. > :03:30.Labour meanwhile reiterated its support but called on the government
:03:31. > :03:35.to remove 16 and 17-year-olds from the legislation. To include them was
:03:36. > :03:41.a mistake. Too many people, it seems absurd, given a 16-year-old can
:03:42. > :03:45.vote, marry, work, pay tax, all as an adult. I will give consideration
:03:46. > :03:50.to the issue that Iain Gray has raised, because I have made clear in
:03:51. > :03:55.my statement my determination is to proceed on this issue with the
:03:56. > :03:58.objective of building consensus and building broad agreement around this
:03:59. > :04:03.provision. The named person scheme due to be rolled out at the end of
:04:04. > :04:10.last month, and discarded gum and now says it hopes to implemented by
:04:11. > :04:14.August 20 17. -- be scuppered -- the Scottish command says it hopes to be
:04:15. > :04:17.implemented by August 20 17. It stands by the scheme, will the
:04:18. > :04:18.Parliament? Joining me now to discuss this,
:04:19. > :04:20.from our Inverness studio is the Director of Care and Learning
:04:21. > :04:23.at Highland Council, Bill Alexander. And in Newcastle, from the campaign
:04:24. > :04:29.group No To Named Persons, Good evening to you both. Is this
:04:30. > :04:32.welcome, Simon? Let's not gloss over the fact that the Supreme Court in
:04:33. > :04:38.July ruled that this scheme is a breach of the human rights of
:04:39. > :04:42.children, young persons and parents. That is a major condemnation of the
:04:43. > :04:47.policy that the government wanted and that the Scottish parliament
:04:48. > :04:50.voted for in 2014. What the Supreme Court has done is it has ripped the
:04:51. > :04:54.heart out of the named person policy, the most important power
:04:55. > :04:59.about the named person would have was the power to grab and share
:05:00. > :05:03.private sensitive information about children and their families almost
:05:04. > :05:07.at will. That has gone, it is history. And the other thing the
:05:08. > :05:10.Supreme Court said was the insinuation that the parents had to
:05:11. > :05:15.do what the named person said or else, that was also said to risk
:05:16. > :05:20.breaching human rights. We know all of this, that is open to
:05:21. > :05:25.interpretation in high people view this. And how people view the
:05:26. > :05:30.Supreme Court ruling. But do you welcome this consultation?
:05:31. > :05:33.Absolutely, of course, it is quite right that parents and the public
:05:34. > :05:38.and professionals should be asked their opinions. It demonstrates the
:05:39. > :05:42.initial government spin that the Supreme Court ruling was just a
:05:43. > :05:46.minor blip was clearly wrong, they have to have major consultation.
:05:47. > :05:53.They have a huge amount of work to do to try and correct the defect.
:05:54. > :06:00.Let me bring in Bill Alexander. Is this the right way to proceed? This
:06:01. > :06:03.announcement? I very much welcomed the
:06:04. > :06:08.announcement, and I am sorry to hear Simon still repeating myths and
:06:09. > :06:11.misconceptions. The Cabinet Secretary call for consensus and a
:06:12. > :06:16.period of engagement to have an inclusive process. I am pleased the
:06:17. > :06:20.government did not rush at this, that they took stock, certainly
:06:21. > :06:23.listening to children's charities and public agencies across Scotland,
:06:24. > :06:29.and the statement from John Swinney reflected that. We are not going to
:06:30. > :06:34.have a desktop exercise. The rating up new legislation summit in office.
:06:35. > :06:41.We will have an inclusive process engaging families, children and
:06:42. > :06:46.practitioners, involving the Commissioners office and Children's
:06:47. > :06:48.Commissioner. Simon, if you contribute to this consultation,
:06:49. > :06:53.what would be the thrust of that? That the government has the job to
:06:54. > :06:56.do, first of all looking retrospectively at data-sharing we
:06:57. > :07:00.have encouraged across Scotland for the last two years, to see we have a
:07:01. > :07:04.novel breaches of privacy have already taken place, and they have
:07:05. > :07:08.got to do everything they can, having spent so long and encouraging
:07:09. > :07:13.this kind of unlawful data-sharing, to stamp it out. They have to win
:07:14. > :07:17.the confidence of parents and this statement today was schizophrenic.
:07:18. > :07:20.On the one hand admitting some big changes needed in the late of the
:07:21. > :07:27.Supreme Court ruling. On the other trying to pretend that it was
:07:28. > :07:30.business as usual. That has really led to some local authorities
:07:31. > :07:34.thinking that they can carry on as usual and to concern amongst
:07:35. > :07:38.parents, parents were relieved when the Supreme Court issued their
:07:39. > :07:42.ruling then made anxious about government spin. It is important the
:07:43. > :07:45.government engages with parents. They have spoken to the same
:07:46. > :07:47.government funded children's charities for years and should spend
:07:48. > :07:54.more time engaging with parents. John Swinney made the point this
:07:55. > :07:57.would be wide-ranging consultation. Bill Alexander, you have run a civil
:07:58. > :08:02.scheme in the Highlands. John Swinney refer to it today. -- run a
:08:03. > :08:12.similar scheme. Have you had to make changes since the Supreme Court
:08:13. > :08:16.ruling? No, some things have not yet been commenced following the Supreme
:08:17. > :08:22.Court ruling. As you have said, the Supreme Court ruling said that not
:08:23. > :08:25.only was the aims of the named person service legitimate and benign
:08:26. > :08:30.but an entirely reasonable measure to support early intervention to
:08:31. > :08:34.support children and families. That is a process already in place across
:08:35. > :08:43.most of Scotland. It is supported by... Any changes necessary, perhaps
:08:44. > :08:45.taking 16 and 17-year-old is out of this legislation? The Cabinet
:08:46. > :08:50.Secretary said he would consider that. That is helpful. They could be
:08:51. > :08:56.pros and cons and the consultation will be welcome, what is also
:08:57. > :09:00.welcome is that we have in Scotland practice that is considered to be
:09:01. > :09:04.leading the way in Europe. Scotland is working with Scandinavia, with
:09:05. > :09:07.Eastern Europe, to put practices within getting it right for every
:09:08. > :09:11.child, developed in Scotland, into place in those countries and if we
:09:12. > :09:15.have not got the information sharing provisions right in the children and
:09:16. > :09:21.young people act we should work with consensus and have an inclusive
:09:22. > :09:25.process to address that. Simon, you are also part of the Christian
:09:26. > :09:29.Institute, which funded the legal action in the first place. Has your
:09:30. > :09:34.organisation got the best interest of children at heart in opposition
:09:35. > :09:39.or is it ideological? What kind of question is that? Of course we do! I
:09:40. > :09:44.hope you ask the same question as Mr Alexander. Of course we do. One of
:09:45. > :09:47.the main concerns about the named persons scheme is it distracts child
:09:48. > :09:54.protection and instead of focusing on significant harm, it tries to
:09:55. > :09:57.take that system and turn its attention to government funded
:09:58. > :10:02.measures of happiness, this well-being test, which is dangerous,
:10:03. > :10:06.risking diverting resources and attention away from vulnerable
:10:07. > :10:10.children, which is very serious. I resent the question. We have worked
:10:11. > :10:14.with a wide range of people across Scotland, 36,000 people signed our
:10:15. > :10:18.petition, we have worked with people from all kinds of backgrounds, all
:10:19. > :10:23.kinds of philosophies, who she have the same concern. The named person
:10:24. > :10:27.scheme was badly drafted and counter-productive to child
:10:28. > :10:31.protection. The Supreme Court has vindicated those concerns. Mr
:10:32. > :10:36.Alexander developed this policy -- defended this policy to the help.
:10:37. > :10:38.Almost two years ago he spoke about concerns about the European
:10:39. > :10:45.Convention on Human Rights being misguided. He was wrong and was
:10:46. > :10:49.those people an apology. Let's bring Bill back and he can apologise if he
:10:50. > :10:54.wants. What about those concerns raised about not bringing parents
:10:55. > :10:59.along with this whole proposition, and diverted resources from those
:11:00. > :11:03.children that desperately need help? Firstly, as most people understand,
:11:04. > :11:08.the named persons service was developed by parents for parents. We
:11:09. > :11:13.introduced a range of reforms and Children's Services between 2006 and
:11:14. > :11:17.2008 and parent said this is not about social workers and
:11:18. > :11:21.psychologists, but about how we contact Children's Services to get
:11:22. > :11:27.advice about children. But you have to acknowledge the point from Simon
:11:28. > :11:31.that parents are genuinely concerned about this? And if they are, it is
:11:32. > :11:37.because of myths and misconceptions we have had again tonight. We care
:11:38. > :11:40.passionately about children's human rights and about the well-being of
:11:41. > :11:45.children and families. I am very sorry to hear Simon deriding the
:11:46. > :11:48.happiness of children. If he wasn't in Newcastle, perhaps he would have
:11:49. > :11:52.heard the report today that ChildLine have had over 900 calls
:11:53. > :11:56.from children in the last year who have had suicidal inclinations. This
:11:57. > :11:59.absolutely, the well-being of children must be at the heart of
:12:00. > :12:05.concerns, which is why families asked us to develop the named person
:12:06. > :12:11.service which if they had a worry... And in person responsible to them,
:12:12. > :12:15.but you back a policy where it was not for parents but about parents.
:12:16. > :12:20.The government really needs to think really hard about whether it still
:12:21. > :12:24.wants to press ahead with the named person who has a statutory
:12:25. > :12:27.obligation to monitor the well-being of children according to government
:12:28. > :12:32.targets. We know what they mean but because the mean things like, as
:12:33. > :12:36.their leaflet said, named persons asking parents if their children get
:12:37. > :12:42.a say on what they watch on TV and flow rooms are decorated? Those are
:12:43. > :12:47.examples they have given. That is why parents don't want it. Time is
:12:48. > :12:49.against us but thank you both for joining us.
:12:50. > :12:51.This week, Nicola Sturgeon told Scotland that education
:12:52. > :12:53.was the "defining mission" of the government.
:12:54. > :12:55.She and Education Secretary, John Swinney, say they're determined
:12:56. > :12:57.to close the attainment gap in our schools -
:12:58. > :12:59.the difference in outcomes between those pupils from poorer
:13:00. > :13:13.So is this the most pressing issue in education? I have been hearing
:13:14. > :13:13.from Sue Ellis from Strathclyde University,
:13:14. > :13:18.who is co-auth University, or of a report
:13:19. > :13:27.At the moment it is. Closing the gap is really important because it's
:13:28. > :13:33.about making sure that every child has a future. Given all the changes
:13:34. > :13:38.we have seen in education, is that gap, which has been intractable for
:13:39. > :13:41.a long time, is undermining the positives in education? There are
:13:42. > :13:46.lots of positives in education but the most important thing is that
:13:47. > :13:49.some of these children are not succeeding at school and could
:13:50. > :13:51.succeed very well, they could be the engineers, the doctors, the
:13:52. > :13:58.journalists and artists of the future. We need to focus on how we
:13:59. > :14:01.can teach every child in Scotland really well. It matters for our
:14:02. > :14:06.economy but also for health and well-being of the nation. The
:14:07. > :14:10.Scottish Government says it will be the defining mission of this
:14:11. > :14:14.particular government. Given that, what is a realistic time frame for
:14:15. > :14:18.closing this gap? You don't know what you can do until you have done
:14:19. > :14:22.it. You don't know how high you can jump until you jump. I think it's
:14:23. > :14:29.good for every single child and teacher to actually work on this,
:14:30. > :14:33.and to the best that they can. I think the difficulty is that it's a
:14:34. > :14:40.cumulative effect you are looking for, so the toll primary one now
:14:41. > :14:43.will bring any gains they bring to primary too, so they will be
:14:44. > :14:47.starting primary to add a different point. As they work through the
:14:48. > :14:51.education system, you will be getting game upon game and it will
:14:52. > :14:56.take ten years perhaps before you see the full effect and the child is
:14:57. > :15:00.what their way all the way through. Is there a danger, in the focus is
:15:01. > :15:03.on raising the attainment of these children from poorer backgrounds,
:15:04. > :15:08.that other children become disadvantaged, teachers become
:15:09. > :15:13.spread too thin? Know because it's not just about the interaction
:15:14. > :15:17.between children and teachers, it benefits every child in that class
:15:18. > :15:20.where everyone is succeeding, everyone is trying things out, where
:15:21. > :15:26.all the children are engaged and excited about learning. Our class
:15:27. > :15:33.size is important, because this was a big talking .5 or six years ago?
:15:34. > :15:36.It slipped off the critical radar because research shows that class
:15:37. > :15:44.size doesn't have a big impact on how well children do. The way they
:15:45. > :15:48.go about teaching matters, and having a curriculum that is working
:15:49. > :15:51.towards the interests of the children and letting them have
:15:52. > :15:56.enough opportunity to get deep into their learning, the study things but
:15:57. > :15:59.not do them in a superficial way, to get opportunities to learn deeply,
:16:00. > :16:03.is important. To that end, the philosophy of the Scottish
:16:04. > :16:08.Government is to give cash directly to schools at the moment, is that
:16:09. > :16:12.the right approach? In Scotland, I think one of the big problems you
:16:13. > :16:18.have is 59% of the total and living in poverty don't attend a school
:16:19. > :16:22.that serves an area in poverty, they attend mixed schools so if you
:16:23. > :16:27.target all your cash on schools that serve poor areas committee will only
:16:28. > :16:31.get 40% of the poor kids. So it does make sense to give some of that
:16:32. > :16:35.money to headteachers who can decide how to intervene and what they will
:16:36. > :16:40.do to help these children. Have we failed to empower those headteachers
:16:41. > :16:44.in the past? There is knowledge mobilisation that we need to do, so
:16:45. > :16:48.they can decide what will the biggest payoff in particular
:16:49. > :16:53.circumstances. There are some things that will work on what is taught, so
:16:54. > :16:57.the classroom pedagogy, some things will look at school systems and how
:16:58. > :17:01.children are encouraged to use school systems to do really well and
:17:02. > :17:05.some things that look at how the school links with the community,
:17:06. > :17:10.parents and the extent to which they encourage children to move outside
:17:11. > :17:20.their own personal experience and see art galleries, museums, sporting
:17:21. > :17:24.events, engaged in a whole load of different activities. Why do you
:17:25. > :17:28.think that some of the teachers are not on board were some of the plans
:17:29. > :17:32.the government have brought forward recently? There have been complaints
:17:33. > :17:39.about workload, still the threat of industrial action in Scotland? There
:17:40. > :17:47.is an issue about workload, and I think there has been a huge issue
:17:48. > :17:53.with assessment. My understanding is that they are trying to make things
:17:54. > :17:55.simpler and more streamlined. But I think teachers, I haven't spoken to
:17:56. > :17:59.a teacher yet it doesn't think it's important to do their best to every
:18:00. > :18:03.single child in the class and to want to do that. The government
:18:04. > :18:07.wants to measure how well children are doing and to that end of
:18:08. > :18:10.bringing in these new assessments, initially called tests, now
:18:11. > :18:15.assessments. What is your understanding of the difference
:18:16. > :18:20.between those areas? Attest just gives a child attesting to get a
:18:21. > :18:27.score for that child. An assessment could see the data around that that
:18:28. > :18:31.can explain, so in England they found that the literary tests, some
:18:32. > :18:35.of the children who weren't doing well were just some babies and what
:18:36. > :18:39.they were doing was age-appropriate. Other kids were kids were in
:18:40. > :18:43.property and needed to be helped so the assessment brings in other data
:18:44. > :18:48.that helps you contextualise the tests. One of the things that has
:18:49. > :18:55.been problematic for teachers is that there is a huge narrative
:18:56. > :18:58.around testing that has come from America, and in America, you have no
:18:59. > :19:04.checks and balances on the system. A school does a test and the score
:19:05. > :19:08.they get the Thames the words of the school, the child and the teacher.
:19:09. > :19:13.In Scotland is never going to be the case. Teacher judgment will always
:19:14. > :19:19.trump tests. And the national improvement framework as testing is
:19:20. > :19:23.one tiny part of their looking at other things like parental
:19:24. > :19:28.engagement, teacher professionalism, school leadership, all the other
:19:29. > :19:36.things that need to be in place that will help you to improve the school.
:19:37. > :19:40.So the testing, there are many more to checks and balances that will
:19:41. > :19:44.stop the testing from being the only thing that matters. Thank you.
:19:45. > :19:46.It's been described as one of the most important Neolithic
:19:47. > :19:50.But the Cochno Stone in a park near a housing scheme on Clydebank
:19:51. > :19:52.was deliberately buried, in a kind of reverse
:19:53. > :19:56.Now the giant slab, which is covered in dozens of 5,000-year-old
:19:57. > :20:02.Experts hope it might be possible to create a full-size replica.
:20:03. > :20:17.Normally the thrill of an after logical dig is not knowing what
:20:18. > :20:22.you're going to find. -- arcade at big. This team know exactly what
:20:23. > :20:26.they're looking for. It's a slab of rock covered in 5000 year old
:20:27. > :20:31.carvings that was a tourist attraction in the early years of the
:20:32. > :20:36.last century. It was deliberately buried after it started being
:20:37. > :20:40.covered in modern graffiti. The decision was taken in the 1960s by
:20:41. > :20:44.the Ministry of Works to bury the stone to protect it from that kind
:20:45. > :20:48.of vandalism and when you look at the Rock now, you see we have the
:20:49. > :20:57.names of individuals, maybe from the 19th century, not elastic and
:20:58. > :21:03.evidence of damage caused by people walking on the site -- melted
:21:04. > :21:07.plastic. The biggest being carried out by students from the University
:21:08. > :21:11.of Glasgow. It's exciting because I have worked in the area before,
:21:12. > :21:15.there has been a lot of bad news, and it's something for the local
:21:16. > :21:20.community to be interested in. You ever find yourself thinking about
:21:21. > :21:24.the people who made these marks? Without a doubt you start putting
:21:25. > :21:27.yourself in the mind set of these people and are making these marks,
:21:28. > :21:32.you have to remember, they were people just like us, up here but
:21:33. > :21:40.about 5000 years ago. The Cochno Stone will be reburied after it is
:21:41. > :21:45.dug up. I think it would be great to create a one-to-one scale replica of
:21:46. > :21:51.the fin-macro, displayed in the local community. It is perfect for
:21:52. > :21:55.engagement, it's in a local environment, to get people
:21:56. > :21:59.interested in visiting the site and taking responsibility for the local
:22:00. > :22:02.heritage and that's what archaeology is all about for us. No one knows
:22:03. > :22:09.exactly why Bronze Age people made these marks. The symbols we see in
:22:10. > :22:17.the rocks here, we think are symbols that were important to people in the
:22:18. > :22:20.Neolithic times, concentric circular forms, we think people had them as
:22:21. > :22:24.tattoos, they were maybe wearing them on their clothing, they were
:22:25. > :22:30.perhaps painted on the sides of houses, they were symbols that would
:22:31. > :22:33.be a familiar part of peoples identity. So people are marking bits
:22:34. > :22:37.of the landscape with those important symbols. Perhaps the
:22:38. > :22:43.neolithic cup and Ring marks and the more modern graffiti are closer than
:22:44. > :22:48.we like to think, both defied human statements that, I was here, in the
:22:49. > :22:53.landscape. But truth is, we don't really know. What's really exciting
:22:54. > :22:58.about being here and having lots of people coming up is everyone has
:22:59. > :23:02.their own theory, everyone is excited by it, everyone has a pet
:23:03. > :23:07.idea about what they were for, so we had someone who grew up near here
:23:08. > :23:09.and came and played on the stone, she thought it was about the stars,
:23:10. > :23:17.other people thought it was about water, but to me, coming from an art
:23:18. > :23:19.background, what I like is that it remains enigmatic despite all these
:23:20. > :23:21.different theories. At the end of the day it's a mystery and that's
:23:22. > :23:22.what excites us. Here with me now to discuss some
:23:23. > :23:25.of the stories of the day at the University of
:23:26. > :23:28.Stirling, Kirstein Rummery, and the Sunday Herald's
:23:29. > :23:38.Investigation Editor Paul Hutcheon. Thanks for coming in. Let's start
:23:39. > :23:44.with the named person's scheme, John Swinney had to make changes in the
:23:45. > :23:48.wake of that Supreme Court ruling, what do you feel about whether he
:23:49. > :23:52.got that right or not? I don't think there were any huge surprises in the
:23:53. > :23:55.statement, he said he would come to Parliament and address the issues
:23:56. > :23:59.head-on. Watching his statement, I think there are two key problems
:24:00. > :24:04.with the scheme as it's currently drafted, one is the legal aspect
:24:05. > :24:08.flagged up by the Supreme Court, information sharing provisions, and
:24:09. > :24:14.I think that's probably a fault both of dodgy legislation and poor
:24:15. > :24:19.Parliament restricting it. I do think that is the easiest bit to get
:24:20. > :24:23.right. John Swinney has now focused on it, he has good lawyers and I
:24:24. > :24:33.think he will bring back a scheme that is compliant with Article
:24:34. > :24:36.eight, the biggest issue for me is pile communication. -- poor
:24:37. > :24:40.communication. There has been a failure to communicate this to the
:24:41. > :24:45.people of Scotland, even the basest critic would not accuse this as
:24:46. > :24:52.being in bad faith, it's about child protection get some -- somehow it's
:24:53. > :24:59.seen as a threat rather than an opportunity and that's a strange
:25:00. > :25:02.situation, because the government got complacent, they didn't see this
:25:03. > :25:06.could be maligned. Some also say it's about the strength of the
:25:07. > :25:12.campaign mounted against it, how do you view this legislation, a welcome
:25:13. > :25:16.move for helping children? I think so, and the irony, to bring up the
:25:17. > :25:20.issue of communication is this legislation was in response to poke
:25:21. > :25:25.a medication between the two Tory agencies. Every single child
:25:26. > :25:30.protection Tribunal that has looked at, has said it is the failure of
:25:31. > :25:34.the key agencies to communicate with each other. The individual agencies
:25:35. > :25:39.might have known a child was a risk that hasn't passed on to education
:25:40. > :25:42.or health or lease authorities. The whole pottable at the station was to
:25:43. > :25:48.enable that and people pointed out that it was benign, it wasn't
:25:49. > :25:55.actually about interfering with peoples liberties. It still take for
:25:56. > :26:00.the government. It's relatively, technically an easy fix still, this
:26:01. > :26:02.is information that is still in the public domain and already
:26:03. > :26:06.scrutinised by a legislative capacity. We are less concerned
:26:07. > :26:11.about the information we give out other social media to big companies
:26:12. > :26:16.then we should be because this legislation is actually about
:26:17. > :26:20.protecting children and predicament by sharing information on getting in
:26:21. > :26:25.there early. Will it change radically to win over those
:26:26. > :26:30.doubters? I think it'll be fairly simple to tweak this legislation to
:26:31. > :26:35.make it compliant with the law. I don't think legality is the issue,
:26:36. > :26:40.it's more a hearts and minds jobs, about salvaging this policy in the
:26:41. > :26:44.minds of the public so it's a PR job for me rather than illegal job. I
:26:45. > :26:49.think they have to recognise that there are concerns about this but if
:26:50. > :26:55.they engage properly with people, they can be reassured. What about
:26:56. > :27:00.the closure of the immigration detention centre, it has been
:27:01. > :27:03.controversial since 2001, it will close and a new facility will be
:27:04. > :27:08.built near Glasgow airport next year. Do you think this highlights
:27:09. > :27:17.tensions between Westminster and Holyrood? I think so. The concerns
:27:18. > :27:21.about the original site work well founded in terms of how people were
:27:22. > :27:26.treated there, how long they were kept, particularly children. What it
:27:27. > :27:30.is highlighted is how little power the Scottish Government had to do
:27:31. > :27:35.anything about it because it was a reserved matter. It also highlights
:27:36. > :27:39.the different approaches Scotland had towards welfare and move towards
:27:40. > :27:44.the new system and the new centre will be much smaller and people will
:27:45. > :27:51.be therefore a shorter period of time, means that the areas where
:27:52. > :27:54.Scotland would like to intervene around welfare, legal rights,
:27:55. > :28:01.capacity to challenge the system, is being removed, and that highlights
:28:02. > :28:07.political tensions between the SNP government and a Tory government but
:28:08. > :28:19.also tensions around who should have power.
:28:20. > :28:26.A different view about being tough on immigration North and south of
:28:27. > :28:28.the border? There is no doubt it has been a byword for inhumane practices
:28:29. > :28:36.but I do think it's on the most difficult policies there is, how do
:28:37. > :28:41.you deal with failed asylum seekers. I think it's not so much a failure
:28:42. > :28:45.of the tension, it's more side issues associated with the tension,
:28:46. > :28:50.such as locking up children and the incredible amount of time that some
:28:51. > :28:54.people face there. The SNP government had power over this
:28:55. > :28:59.matter and produce show, they would come to a similar solution as well.
:29:00. > :29:07.This is no easy way of dealing with this. They allow every asylum seeker
:29:08. > :29:13.to stay in ordinary communities? There is problems with that as well.
:29:14. > :29:17.As far as the SNP government is concerned, they are good at talking
:29:18. > :29:20.about reserved issues and matters on which they have little control but
:29:21. > :29:25.when they have the power, they are less radical than they appear at
:29:26. > :29:28.first glance. One of the point ministers were making was Facey
:29:29. > :29:33.moving this facility to next to Glasgow airport as a signal of
:29:34. > :29:36.intent on getting people out of the country quite quickly, that may be
:29:37. > :29:41.another difficulty for the UK Government.
:29:42. > :29:48.the tension between talking the talk and implementing action links to
:29:49. > :29:52.earlier debates about attainment. And one of the most vertical thing
:29:53. > :29:57.Scotland could do. It actually has control over its education policy
:29:58. > :30:02.and they could address poverty issues which leads to gaps in
:30:03. > :30:06.attainment. Similarly, it is easy to say we can't do anything about this
:30:07. > :30:11.because it is a Westminster issue, but you are right, in areas where
:30:12. > :30:15.they have had control, not just the SNP, but control since devolution
:30:16. > :30:16.with the Labour coalition government, not being very radical
:30:17. > :30:21.at all. Thank you both, time is up. That's it for tonight.
:30:22. > :30:23.Thanks for watching. Shelly Jofre is here on Monday
:30:24. > :30:25.night, usual time. Join her then.
:30:26. > :30:30.Bye-bye.