12/09/2016

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:00:00. > :00:00.Hostilities in Syria have halted, at least for now.

:00:07. > :00:28.Could this truce be the last chance of peace in a united Syria?

:00:29. > :00:40.Early reports are of some reduction in violence in Syria

:00:41. > :00:42.since the ceasefire came into force. Can it hold?

:00:43. > :00:44.Is enough being done here to keep families together

:00:45. > :00:48.And Jeremy Corbyn's marking a year at the helm of Labour,

:00:49. > :01:01.but does the Scottish party have reason to celebrate?

:01:02. > :01:04.The world holds its breath as it waits to see whether

:01:05. > :01:06.the fragile truce that's just come into effect in Syria

:01:07. > :01:12.If it can, then Russia and the US will carry out

:01:13. > :01:15.co-ordinated air strikes against jihadist militants.

:01:16. > :01:18.The US Secretary of State John Kerry said there would be violations

:01:19. > :01:24.but urged all parties to abide by the terms of the agreement.

:01:25. > :01:26.Well, joining me now is Professor of Peace Studies

:01:27. > :01:40.Good evening. Is the ceasefire holding so far? Broadly, yes,

:01:41. > :01:45.reports particularly in the hour or so after sunset of some preachers in

:01:46. > :01:49.several northern towns and cities but by and large, the level of

:01:50. > :01:54.violence has declined markedly. It is night time now and the key test I

:01:55. > :01:58.think will come during daylight hours tomorrow and indeed on

:01:59. > :02:03.Wednesday. And what happens after that? What if it does manage to hold

:02:04. > :02:10.for seven days? If it was to hold for the whole seven days, two things

:02:11. > :02:12.will happen then, one is the Americans and Russians

:02:13. > :02:21.extraordinarily will start to court neatly bombing attacks on Isis and

:02:22. > :02:24.one of the other extreme groups they regard as terrorists. It is amazing

:02:25. > :02:29.the Americans and Russians are coming together on this but not

:02:30. > :02:32.clear it will last very long, given the problems between Russia and

:02:33. > :02:37.America in other zones, but they intend to do that. In the longer

:02:38. > :02:43.term, the Russians are hoping there might be longer term negotiations in

:02:44. > :02:48.October or maybe later and that these could possibly involve some

:02:49. > :02:52.sort of deal with the Assad regime. That is some loose talk about

:02:53. > :02:57.President Assad being persuaded to stand down but one has to realise

:02:58. > :03:02.the complexities at every stretch of this at the present time. A number

:03:03. > :03:08.of the moderate Islamist opposition groups, not regarded as on any

:03:09. > :03:13.terrorist list by the West, I dubious about the ceasefire. We have

:03:14. > :03:17.seen intense violence in the last 36-40 at hours from both sides,

:03:18. > :03:23.principally from the Assad regime, but also others as well and in any

:03:24. > :03:27.case, the main thing is that the most that is what really is the only

:03:28. > :03:32.be sufficient respite for aid to get into the areas most needed. But few

:03:33. > :03:36.people are optimists for the long-term, but at least this is

:03:37. > :03:41.better than the kind of war fought until a few hours ago. We have had

:03:42. > :03:46.so Michael Fallon, the Defence Secretary, saying that Russia needs

:03:47. > :03:51.to rein in President Assad if this seaside has a chance of succeeding.

:03:52. > :03:57.How likely do you think that is? -- if the ceasefire. The Russians have

:03:58. > :04:01.been important in stabilising the Assad regime, it is more confident,

:04:02. > :04:06.one of the reasons why it can go back to barrel bobbing, using

:04:07. > :04:10.chlorine, even targeting hospitals. But there is said to be problems on

:04:11. > :04:14.both sides. You have the regime feeling more secure, suggesting

:04:15. > :04:20.Russia has a lot of power, but the second element is the Russians

:04:21. > :04:26.themselves are concerned at the really Islamic extremist,

:04:27. > :04:32.particularly Isis, which is why they have come in with the Americans.

:04:33. > :04:35.Why? Russia has a very large Muslim minority, particularly in the

:04:36. > :04:40.Caucasus, and within that there are some elements that are being very

:04:41. > :04:44.severely but it lies by what is happening in Syria. The Russians are

:04:45. > :04:48.very happy with the way in which their status has increased, whatever

:04:49. > :04:53.the bloodshed involved, but they do fear getting bogged down in this

:04:54. > :04:58.kind of war because of their experience in Afghanistan. It is

:04:59. > :05:04.complicated picture, then the Syrian Kurds and Turks as well, which is my

:05:05. > :05:07.experience watchers of this regard this as one of the most complex was

:05:08. > :05:13.there have been in the last 30 years, and it will be difficult to

:05:14. > :05:17.bring it to an end. And just talking about the practical problems

:05:18. > :05:21.involved, when that is joint US and Russian targeting of hardline

:05:22. > :05:26.Islamist is, how much of a challenge will be faced just separating the

:05:27. > :05:30.nationalist rebels from the jihadists? It will be extremely

:05:31. > :05:35.difficult. One looks around anywhere for something more positive. But in

:05:36. > :05:40.many parts of Syria, on the fringes of the violence, it is remarkable

:05:41. > :05:44.how communities have tended to be much more cohesive than expected.

:05:45. > :05:49.Quite a number of local ceasefires, some of which lasting for a long

:05:50. > :05:54.time, and obviously, this it is in no way to see there are not mass of

:05:55. > :06:00.problems with huge displacement, but what this means, as and when one

:06:01. > :06:03.glimmer of hope, if you have more or less national ceasefire, even if

:06:04. > :06:08.just partial, that can give scope for local initiatives to develop,

:06:09. > :06:12.not just releasing it but essentially initiatives which could

:06:13. > :06:15.lead to local ceasefires and it might be possible to build some

:06:16. > :06:20.degree of stability here and they are, not much to hope for, but it

:06:21. > :06:25.might be something which would come out of this ceasefire. What evidence

:06:26. > :06:30.is there that Isis is being diminished? Is there much case for

:06:31. > :06:36.optimism here? As far as Isis is concerned, with this intense war in

:06:37. > :06:40.Iraq and Syria, the Americans reckon they have killed 40,000 Isis

:06:41. > :06:45.supporters over the last two years, and Isis is certainly in retreat, to

:06:46. > :06:51.some extent depressed, but still retains a remarkable degree of power

:06:52. > :06:55.and to spread overseas, quite deliberately, not just concerned

:06:56. > :06:58.with its own geographical caliphate, which is under pressure, but

:06:59. > :07:03.reaching out with groups responsible for what happened in Brussels and

:07:04. > :07:08.Paris, the problems in Bangladesh recently, even the problems in South

:07:09. > :07:13.East Asia. This entity is in a week taking on a rather new mantle and

:07:14. > :07:17.just as it replaced Al-Qaeda to a degree by something else might

:07:18. > :07:21.replace it. The fundamental point is the underlying reasons why this kind

:07:22. > :07:25.of group is able to arise, stemming much more from problems right across

:07:26. > :07:31.the Middle East and beyond, not deleting even specifically just to a

:07:32. > :07:35.very narrow interpretation of Islam. Even if we were able to see Isis

:07:36. > :07:39.apparently defeated, I am hesitant to say that would be the end of the

:07:40. > :07:41.problems of this kind of rubble from the margins, if you like. Paul

:07:42. > :07:44.Rogers, thank you. Thank you. Well, with all eyes on the Syrian

:07:45. > :07:47.ceasefire, here the Home Office is being urged by faith leaders

:07:48. > :07:50.and charities to do more to keep families together

:07:51. > :07:52.after they've fled the war there. The Scottish Government has also

:07:53. > :07:55.said it wants obstacles to be removed to allow families

:07:56. > :07:58.to join those granted refugee status in the UK.

:07:59. > :08:19.Here's Fiona Walker. My name is Ahmed Zalgana. My name is

:08:20. > :08:26.Muhammad. Mining is Mahmoor. -- my knee is. Tentative first words of

:08:27. > :08:30.English for this family, the mother and children classed as refugees,

:08:31. > :08:34.and this is why. TRANSLATION: Planes bombing and we were in the Andy

:08:35. > :08:40.Graham shelter with lots of dust and the planes were bombing and people

:08:41. > :08:45.were dying. -- we were in the underground shelter. No far from the

:08:46. > :08:51.bombing and reunited in Glasgow but the thing is the mother and children

:08:52. > :08:55.can stay here but the father cannot. TRANSLATION: I nearly died to be

:08:56. > :09:01.with them, to have them with me, I just can't imagine life without

:09:02. > :09:04.them. He has to prove he is their father to avoid being deported. The

:09:05. > :09:10.government don't believe they are my family, I am prepared to prove from

:09:11. > :09:14.them, take a DNA at anything. TRANSLATION: I need him and the

:09:15. > :09:19.children need him. Two of my children are disabled, I don't

:09:20. > :09:23.understand the system. I call for help from the government so I can

:09:24. > :09:27.work and support my family. 208 leaders from around the country are

:09:28. > :09:33.making that call for help saying the UK can do more and quickly. -- 200

:09:34. > :09:38.faith leaders. The government can the likes regulations about

:09:39. > :09:42.admitting refugees who have family in this country, guaranteeing a

:09:43. > :09:45.network when they arrive, which is achievable within the foreseeable

:09:46. > :09:50.time frame. The Scottish Government is also taking a stance. We have to

:09:51. > :09:56.be in the business of keeping families together, so we are calling

:09:57. > :10:00.on the UK Government to revisit and revise the guidelines of the family

:10:01. > :10:11.reunion programme. In response, the Home Office said...

:10:12. > :10:21.This is what this family fled at home. Five years ago, it was the

:10:22. > :10:28.city which sparked the Syrian uprising. Today, a truce begins.

:10:29. > :10:34.When the war started, school stopped. Now they are learning to

:10:35. > :10:37.read and write but in a different language. And in the fear they may

:10:38. > :10:40.lose their father once again. Well, joining me now

:10:41. > :10:44.is the Chief Executive of the Scottish Refugee Council,

:10:45. > :10:55.John Wilkes. Hello. Scotland accepted 1000 Syrian

:10:56. > :11:01.refugees in the last year. Do you think that enough has been done to

:11:02. > :11:04.keep families together in that process? Certainly, the Syrian

:11:05. > :11:10.resettlement process the UK Government has instituted does try

:11:11. > :11:14.and bring family units over so in that sense families brought over to

:11:15. > :11:18.the UK, Scotland taking most of those so far in the first year of

:11:19. > :11:22.this programme, that there are other aspects of the UK Government policy

:11:23. > :11:28.around family reunion for other refugees hear that could be improved

:11:29. > :11:33.and widened. So what happens when families don't arrive together? What

:11:34. > :11:37.are the problems? The families are separated, a concern for the

:11:38. > :11:40.families, making it more difficult to settle and integrate, because

:11:41. > :11:46.they are worrying about family members elsewhere. Once they are

:11:47. > :11:50.settled here, it is easier to bring other people to live with them. Less

:11:51. > :11:54.resources are required to do that. Currently, the rules around Family

:11:55. > :11:59.Reunion in terms of refugees having their family joining them are very

:12:00. > :12:03.narrow and constrained and it is a complicated process. The Home Office

:12:04. > :12:07.could make those rules easier, could widen the definition of family

:12:08. > :12:11.members currently included, that would help I think an awful lot in

:12:12. > :12:15.helping more people build new lives. We have from the family in the film,

:12:16. > :12:20.obviously distressed by the checks they were having to go through, but

:12:21. > :12:26.the Home Office says that every case is carefully considered on its

:12:27. > :12:29.merits. Isn't that reasonable? It is not so much to do with checking the

:12:30. > :12:35.validity of the people, but the narrow definition of high Family

:12:36. > :12:38.Reunion is done. At the moment some untangling the spice and children.

:12:39. > :12:43.But if a Syrian man was here already in the UK, he could bring his wife

:12:44. > :12:48.and if he had any child under the age of 18, but could not bring

:12:49. > :12:54.another who could be 19, that is how restrictive covenant rules are. If

:12:55. > :12:57.the rules are widen to broaden the number of family members you can

:12:58. > :13:00.bring, that would be helpful. What about the current situation in terms

:13:01. > :13:06.of how asylum is controlled? Would you like to see polar over asylum

:13:07. > :13:10.devolved to Scotland? Certain elements of how the asylum system is

:13:11. > :13:16.run would be better run by the Scottish Government. Why is that?

:13:17. > :13:21.There are aspects that affect the asylum system, children's services,

:13:22. > :13:25.housing, already the responsibility of the Scottish Government, so those

:13:26. > :13:29.aspects would be better run at Scottish level. You think that gets

:13:30. > :13:34.in the way, then, that those devolved issues can't be dealt with

:13:35. > :13:39.separately in Scotland? There have been a number of instances where the

:13:40. > :13:42.Home Office and UK governments have not appreciated differences in

:13:43. > :13:46.legislation or rights around issues to do with children, health or

:13:47. > :13:50.housing that exist in Scotland and that has caused problems. Different

:13:51. > :13:54.legal aid in Scotland to England and Wales impact on people going through

:13:55. > :13:57.the asylum process, many aspects of the system that could be better

:13:58. > :14:03.managed and run if devolved to Scotland. The Syrian resettlement

:14:04. > :14:07.programme, if the UK Government had decided to say to the Scottish

:14:08. > :14:11.Government who would have been very willing to say here is the amount of

:14:12. > :14:14.refugees you can have, and the resources, you organise the

:14:15. > :14:19.programmes yourself within Scotland rather than the current situation we

:14:20. > :14:22.are all the criteria set by the Home Office with individual local

:14:23. > :14:28.authorities, we could have got better results we have even so far

:14:29. > :14:32.in Scotland. A lot of goodwill in Scotland across the country to

:14:33. > :14:35.helping asylum seekers come and settle here, but how will it but do

:14:36. > :14:41.you think local authorities have been in providing everything needed?

:14:42. > :14:50.I think the local authorities have demonstrated enormous goodwill, but

:14:51. > :15:01.most of those local authorities have never experienced refugees, only a

:15:02. > :15:07.few have experience of a lot through the programme. So we do have the

:15:08. > :15:15.issue, about getting out that expertise, and we do think that

:15:16. > :15:18.refugees arriving at Angus, western isles, they can learn from the

:15:19. > :15:26.experience of other local authorities. No matter where you

:15:27. > :15:31.arrive in Scotland, we hope that you have the same opportunities, to get

:15:32. > :15:46.a good life and immigration experience. Thank you for coming in.

:15:47. > :15:49.It has been reported, that one big donor has stopped supporting the

:15:50. > :15:56.party north of the border. Huw Williams has been asking

:15:57. > :16:09.how much of a problem Scottish Labour, one is

:16:10. > :16:18.overwhelmingly the dominant force in the land. But now a shadow. I know

:16:19. > :16:23.that people in Scotland have been disappointed by the Labour Party, I

:16:24. > :16:30.agree with you. But an argument that the Labour Party has always been

:16:31. > :16:38.small and weaker than it seemed. Strip the patronage. You are left

:16:39. > :16:45.with a party that is not the tournaments, it exists almost as a

:16:46. > :16:52.branch operation, and London Labour, it faces the challenge of not being

:16:53. > :16:57.answerable to the Scottish people. And it cannot be, because it has

:16:58. > :17:04.never been fully financially autonomous. Scottish Labour could be

:17:05. > :17:10.facing the perfect storm, far less of a membership boost than down

:17:11. > :17:14.south, trade unions supporting Jeremy Corbyn, even though Kezia

:17:15. > :17:22.Dugdale has publicly backed Owen Smith. It is like a patient, on

:17:23. > :17:33.life-support. And things have not got any better since 2007. And if we

:17:34. > :17:40.are approaching a nadir... That is another matter. But you get reports

:17:41. > :17:47.about the withdrawal of funding, where do you go? Just relying on the

:17:48. > :17:59.unions? Problems for Kezia Dugdale, supporting Mr Smith, because Unite

:18:00. > :18:04.and Unison back Jeremy Corbyn. And uncertainty about Scotland's

:18:05. > :18:09.political future, stake all on union, or does Labour need to start

:18:10. > :18:13.thinking about what it could form in an independent Scotland. Labour has

:18:14. > :18:23.been playing catch up in Scotland for over a date. They should have

:18:24. > :18:29.had the vision, ideas, worked up for policies, federalism, legal support

:18:30. > :18:35.us in Scotland would not be put off by this. A lot of them would support

:18:36. > :18:41.this has been open to independence. It needs to have an agenda, that is

:18:42. > :18:47.not against independence, but social justice, that is the question. The

:18:48. > :18:58.union, secondary question. The need to be humble, and seek to us, good

:18:59. > :19:02.historical Labour, a lot of us grew up knowing the story but it's

:19:03. > :19:06.passed. They have to explain how that has gone wrong. Whatever

:19:07. > :19:07.strategy Labour fault, it is not going to make much difference with

:19:08. > :19:11.no money and votes. Here now to talk about that

:19:12. > :19:14.and the rest of the day's news is Labour's former

:19:15. > :19:15.Shadow Scottish Secretary And Moray MacDonald,

:19:16. > :19:18.who's a former director of the Scottish Conservatives

:19:19. > :19:34.and now a PR executive. These latest report, about donors

:19:35. > :19:40.closing wallets to Scottish Labour, what does that tell us? I think it

:19:41. > :19:47.is just another symptom, about the trouble that we are in. No point

:19:48. > :19:51.fading that. I have been in the studio, defending the Scottish

:19:52. > :19:56.Labour Party, but no getting away from this. I find myself agreeing

:19:57. > :20:07.with Gerry Hassan, we need to be humble. But this is the symptom, not

:20:08. > :20:14.the cause. And it is not just about Kezia Dugdale, so many factors and

:20:15. > :20:19.we have a big job on our hands. But a lot of Scottish opinion, once the

:20:20. > :20:25.centre-left voice, not wanting to talk about the constitution all the

:20:26. > :20:32.time. Angry, frustrated, because despite ourselves, we are not going

:20:33. > :20:44.to fill the vacuum. Just won the financial issue, one senior union

:20:45. > :20:48.official told me, no cash problem. Do you think the party is being

:20:49. > :20:54.honest with itself? I think over past generations we have not been

:20:55. > :20:58.honest and off with sales, and that reflects to the Scottish public, we

:20:59. > :21:03.have not been deliberately dishonest but we need to come to terms with

:21:04. > :21:09.some of the issues. Some of the divisions, lack of ideas, and

:21:10. > :21:16.galvanise around the founding principles. You need money with than

:21:17. > :21:21.politics. No doubt about that. But money tends to follow power in

:21:22. > :21:26.politics. The Scottish National Party, when I was growing up, not

:21:27. > :21:30.having many resources but they do now a days. We need to be serious

:21:31. > :21:34.about wanting to change Scotland and then perhaps we can begin to have

:21:35. > :21:40.the conversation to become more effective. You shall run the

:21:41. > :21:51.Scottish Conservatives, back in 2001. In the doldrums. Do you see

:21:52. > :22:00.some parallels? Between Scottish Labour now? Absolutely. The Scottish

:22:01. > :22:07.Conservative Party 2001, it was fractured, not strong, and had lost

:22:08. > :22:11.elections. That has a big impact on the party. It has an impact on how

:22:12. > :22:19.people work together. And when the public sees that, the public does

:22:20. > :22:24.not give support. In that time... The party is only going to get

:22:25. > :22:28.support from die-hard supporters, people who have got money, giving

:22:29. > :22:33.you money no matter what. That is not generally going to be enough to

:22:34. > :22:37.get back into power. It is going to take years to get trust back, as

:22:38. > :22:47.market has said, getting them back on site. -- on side. That is when

:22:48. > :22:57.you can begin to get enough cash, to run a good campaign. Some in Labour

:22:58. > :23:02.have said good riddance to wealthy donors! They always seem to want

:23:03. > :23:08.some influence, but do you think any serious political party can do that?

:23:09. > :23:14.You have the argument, that some parts of the party, or anti

:23:15. > :23:17.business, I am not one of those, I think the Labour Party has attracted

:23:18. > :23:25.wealthy people who have got the sense of knowing where they came

:23:26. > :23:29.from, wanting to contribute to get back, and for ethical reasons. They

:23:30. > :23:36.have just lost faith, in the ability to get back into the power. Bay want

:23:37. > :23:41.to see results, investment, success. I think it is more about that. But I

:23:42. > :23:53.would not rule out the fact, you can get resources from our bus, --

:23:54. > :23:58.others, also from membership. But the core, the cause of the problem.

:23:59. > :24:01.And we are not serious enough about being an alternative government.

:24:02. > :24:04.David Cameron has announced he's standing down as an MP

:24:05. > :24:06.just two months after he quit as Prime Minister.

:24:07. > :24:08.He said then he planned to fight the 2020 general election,

:24:09. > :24:11.but today, he said he'd changed his mind.

:24:12. > :24:20.As a former Prime Minister, it is difficult to sit as a backbencher,

:24:21. > :24:27.and not to be an enormous distraction. I do not want to be a

:24:28. > :24:37.distraction, I want Whitley to have an MP, playing a role in everyday

:24:38. > :24:42.life I would find them possible. Are you surprised? Do you think he was

:24:43. > :24:48.being a distraction? I am not surprised. I think after being Prime

:24:49. > :24:53.Minister it is difficult to sit on backbenches, not doing as much as

:24:54. > :25:06.when you think about him being Prime Minister. It is almost indecent

:25:07. > :25:12.haste!? He probably does not want to be trampling over Theresa May.

:25:13. > :25:16.Regardless of what you think, years the former Conservative Prime

:25:17. > :25:22.Minister, he does not want to wreck what is happening. But I am

:25:23. > :25:29.disappointed, about David Cameron, after the European referendum. He

:25:30. > :25:35.was clearly for Remain. He said if we do not win, I'll stick around.

:25:36. > :25:42.And try to get the best Brexit deal that we can get, but he resigned the

:25:43. > :25:48.next day, and he is also resigning from this. I think it is a good

:25:49. > :25:52.example of one of the reasons why the public have gone off

:25:53. > :26:01.politicians. They keep saying what they are going to do, and then they

:26:02. > :26:04.do not do that. They think it is PR spin, but PR is actually about doing

:26:05. > :26:10.what you said you are going to do, and if not, giving reasons. I think

:26:11. > :26:14.the spin that David Cameron and Tony Blair have given out, has given

:26:15. > :26:22.politics a bad name. What do you think of this hasty departure?

:26:23. > :26:32.Alternative sources of income? More interesting things to do? What is

:26:33. > :26:37.his legacy? Burst onto the scene... Modernising the Conservative Party.

:26:38. > :26:42.I think that explained some of the support that they had, but he has

:26:43. > :26:47.largely failed. He will be remembered, as the Prime Minister

:26:48. > :26:57.who took us out of Europe, and the notion of being a more modern party,

:26:58. > :27:00.implementing gay marriage, greenest government, and we have Theresa May,

:27:01. > :27:11.back to the debate about grammar schools. Fights about migration,

:27:12. > :27:19.grammar schools. I think David Cameron has to go down as failed

:27:20. > :27:23.Prime Minister. Do you think he will go down as having a legacy? I think

:27:24. > :27:28.that he will. When you think about Gordon Brown, Tony Blair, John

:27:29. > :27:33.Major, everybody says that nobody is ever going to remember them, but

:27:34. > :27:42.after some time, they do, John Major the classic example. And now...

:27:43. > :27:48.During the Olympics, everybody going back to one of the reasons, was

:27:49. > :27:55.because of the national lottery that John Major setup. David Cameron

:27:56. > :27:58.could through his parliament, gay marriage, who would have thought

:27:59. > :28:03.that Conservative came on a story to that? I think he is going to be

:28:04. > :28:09.remembered as being liberal, and he made the Conservatives re-elected.

:28:10. > :28:14.But Brexit failure always looms large? I think that is undoubtedly

:28:15. > :28:22.going to be the hallmark of his administration and he cannot shake

:28:23. > :28:28.that of, because his projects, they seemed to fail. Years forever going

:28:29. > :28:34.to be associated with Brexit. Nothing to be compared with that.

:28:35. > :28:40.Important though some of the legislation was, I think that is of

:28:41. > :28:44.significance. His legacy is not continuing that. It seems to me

:28:45. > :28:46.shifting. And I think that is how you judge people.

:28:47. > :28:50.Gary Robertson will be here tomorrow night, usual time.

:28:51. > :29:05.This is a trailer for BBC Four's conceptual art season.

:29:06. > :29:09.You see clips of a pile of bricks causing anger in a gallery,

:29:10. > :29:13.and a man in a cardboard outfit babbling onstage.

:29:14. > :29:17."Is it art if it doesn't make sense?"

:29:18. > :29:22.Cut to a clip of an artist displaying a crumpled ball of paper.

:29:23. > :29:25."Is it art if no-one painted it or sculpted it?"

:29:26. > :29:29.Now a clip of a pickled shark floating in a tank.

:29:30. > :29:34."And is it art if it only exists...in your head?"

:29:35. > :29:38.BBC Four gets very conceptual. Three nights of programmes...