:00:00. > :00:07.for a new immigration removal centre near Glasgow Airport.
:00:08. > :00:09.But will it mean a fairer deal for those
:00:10. > :00:28.But will it mean a fairer deal for those being detained?
:00:29. > :00:32.The controversial Dungavel Removal Centre in Lanarkshire
:00:33. > :00:34.is to close next year, but critics fear its replacement
:00:35. > :00:40.And Aberdeen businesses are welcoming breastfeeding women -
:00:41. > :00:50.but why is it still an issue for some?
:00:51. > :00:53.So Dungavel - a name synonomous with controversy.
:00:54. > :00:58.Over the years, Scotland's only detention centre
:00:59. > :01:01.Today, we saw the plans for its replacement.
:01:02. > :01:11.The proposed new facility near Glasgow Airport will hold less
:01:12. > :01:14.than a quarter of the immigrants Dungavel has, and is
:01:15. > :01:22.as a "short-term holding facility", but what will it mean
:01:23. > :01:30.This is Dungavel Removal Centre, currently the only place in Scotland
:01:31. > :01:34.are legal immigrant can be held before deportation. It is
:01:35. > :01:39.controversial and not long for this world. Last month the Home Office,
:01:40. > :01:46.responsible for immigration policy, said it would close Dungavel which
:01:47. > :01:51.holds up to 249 people. Why? Refugee campaigners allege conditions were
:01:52. > :01:55.racist and inhumane. Last year it was the focus of protests with
:01:56. > :02:00.claims that people were being held there for too long. Children were
:02:01. > :02:06.also held that until 2010. The last DQ knees will leave in 2017. -- the
:02:07. > :02:11.last people believe. And this is the proposal for the new short-term
:02:12. > :02:16.holding facility. It is a former British Airways staff social club,
:02:17. > :02:22.close to Glasgow Airport. At the plans are still waiting approval
:02:23. > :02:29.iron Fisher Council. If it gains planning permission -- approval by
:02:30. > :02:35.Renfrewshire Council. If it gains at Yeovil -- approval, it will hold far
:02:36. > :02:38.fewer places than Dungavel. As it is close to Glasgow Airport the
:02:39. > :02:44.government said people can be easily moved to London, from where they say
:02:45. > :02:48.most removals take place. This lawyer has dealt with thousands of
:02:49. > :02:54.immigration cases and says the protests may just be one reason why
:02:55. > :03:00.Dungavel is closing. We need to have very short-term holding facilities
:03:01. > :03:06.used as a last resort, not for victims of torture, pregnant women
:03:07. > :03:11.or children, but the tension can be necessary. The closure of Dungavel
:03:12. > :03:18.is not moving to a step of no detention but that those who will be
:03:19. > :03:24.detained will not be in Scotland but transported by air travel or by van,
:03:25. > :03:28.8-12 hours, down to London. The key problem with that approach is access
:03:29. > :03:36.to legal representatives in Scotland is frustrated. When someone is in
:03:37. > :03:41.the South East, they can we do not have access to legal representation,
:03:42. > :03:46.family and support networks, creating an access to justice issue.
:03:47. > :03:49.Last year, an opinion poll said no one should be held for more than 28
:03:50. > :03:54.days and some organisations want further changes. I think there is a
:03:55. > :03:59.real opportunity here for us all to think imaginatively about how we
:04:00. > :04:03.deal with people who are seeking asylum and other irregular migrants.
:04:04. > :04:07.There is a real chance to look at alternatives to detention and look
:04:08. > :04:10.at how we make better decisions in various processes and reduce the
:04:11. > :04:15.extent to which we use the tension and I'd like to see discussions
:04:16. > :04:34.around that take place. In a statement, the Home Office said...
:04:35. > :04:40.There is wide public support for strong policy illegal migrants. The
:04:41. > :04:43.challenge for the government is to enforce it fairly.
:04:44. > :04:49.Well, we did ask the Conservatives for any one of their MSPs or MPs
:04:50. > :04:51.to join us this evening to discuss this issue,
:04:52. > :04:53.but they told us nobody was available.
:04:54. > :04:56.We also asked the Home Office for an interview with a minister.
:04:57. > :04:59.They declined, but as you saw in that report, they told us
:05:00. > :05:10.The new facility would be more efficient and save money.
:05:11. > :05:13.on Immigration, Asylum and Border Control, Stuart McDonald,
:05:14. > :05:15.was available to speak to us a little earlier, from Westminster.
:05:16. > :05:22.Stuart MacDonald, you have long been a critic of Dungavel and you must be
:05:23. > :05:27.happy about needing more for these new plans for a new centre in
:05:28. > :05:29.Glasgow? I have long been a critic of immigration and attention as a
:05:30. > :05:34.whole but not particularly happy with the plans to close Dungavel and
:05:35. > :05:40.put a new centre in Glasgow. The reason is I am against immigration
:05:41. > :05:46.detention because I want to see far fewer folk detained it should be
:05:47. > :05:50.last resort rather than routine. And I hear no indication that that is
:05:51. > :05:57.division between the closure of Dungavel, so we will not see your
:05:58. > :06:03.fork detained but people moved much further away from France, family,
:06:04. > :06:07.support networks and indeed immigration law representatives. --
:06:08. > :06:10.farther away from friends. And other detained in significant centres that
:06:11. > :06:16.are significantly worse than Dungavel. But detention and removal
:06:17. > :06:21.are an essential part of any immigration policy. You need to have
:06:22. > :06:24.the centres, don't you? There is a case for having small immigration
:06:25. > :06:28.detention centres as a matter of last resort, most countries in
:06:29. > :06:31.Europe have that, but the Conservative government is at the
:06:32. > :06:35.extreme in European terms, in terms of the number of people detained and
:06:36. > :06:40.in terms of how long it detains people for, and at the end of the
:06:41. > :06:43.date immigration detention is hugely expensive, utterly ineffective in
:06:44. > :06:48.helping the government achieve what it wants to do, and also most
:06:49. > :06:51.importantly completely inhumane and we see pregnant people detained,
:06:52. > :06:55.victims of torture detained, and that is why we want to see an end to
:06:56. > :07:06.this, but closing Dungavel will not do that but move the problem
:07:07. > :07:09.elsewhere. When you see the centre should be only a last resort, are
:07:10. > :07:12.you referring to people who have committed other criminal acts? This
:07:13. > :07:17.is to facilitate removal of people who have no right to be here, but
:07:18. > :07:22.you find in the United Kingdom, in actual fact, 50% of people released
:07:23. > :07:29.and not removed to go back out into the public, and a higher percentage
:07:30. > :07:34.in Dungavel, so it just does not work, but there will be a small
:07:35. > :07:38.number of people for which detention is ultimately required to effect
:07:39. > :07:42.removal, perhaps for example if they have posed a danger to the public,
:07:43. > :07:45.but routine detention is not acceptable, particularly for people
:07:46. > :07:50.like pregnant women and torture survivors, people with mental health
:07:51. > :07:56.problems. Are you not encouraged that this will be, as the Home
:07:57. > :08:01.Office says, is short-term holding facility? It will have fewer beds
:08:02. > :08:07.than Dungavel, 51 as against 250 at Dungavel. I am not encouraged. They
:08:08. > :08:11.will be held for a short time in Glasgow, but that does not tell me
:08:12. > :08:19.that they will be held for a short period in the UK overall. But they
:08:20. > :08:23.could be moved to places which are, every time inspected, throwing up
:08:24. > :08:28.horror stories. That is in contrast to Dungavel. I want to see it closed
:08:29. > :08:33.because it is a detention centre. But Dungavel is a much safer place
:08:34. > :08:37.than many other places. What we will find ultimately is people moved from
:08:38. > :08:41.Dungavel to these unacceptable detention centres around London, he
:08:42. > :08:46.will not see fewer of people detained over. But people moved to
:08:47. > :08:50.the Glasgow Central, it has been suggested by the Scottish legal aid
:08:51. > :08:54.board is one of the problems that Dungavel is it is quite a distance
:08:55. > :08:59.from all stop the lawyers in Glasgow and Edinburgh, so at least that
:09:00. > :09:10.there is a new centre, they are closer? -- from most of the lawyers.
:09:11. > :09:13.The future is that we will only be in Glasgow for such a short space of
:09:14. > :09:20.time, they will not have access to lawyers either. But in London, there
:09:21. > :09:28.could be no legal aid at all, and it is a completely different legal
:09:29. > :09:29.jurisdiction, making legal advice much harder, not easier. Thank you
:09:30. > :09:31.very much. it's been illegal to bar women
:09:32. > :09:35.from breastfeeding in public. So why is it almost
:09:36. > :09:37.half of new mums Well, in Aberdeen, dozens of cafes,
:09:38. > :09:41.shops and restaurants have begun displaying signs in their windows
:09:42. > :09:56.to let mothers know they're Breast-feeding in public, still a
:09:57. > :10:00.fill-in uncommon sight. But that could be about to change. Businesses
:10:01. > :10:05.in Aberdeen are signing up to display their breast-feeding
:10:06. > :10:11.credentials. It normalise things best -- it normalises breast-feeding
:10:12. > :10:18.really. I did not have many negative encounters but it is very career in
:10:19. > :10:23.public and it has a taboo. It is healthy to normalise it. How much of
:10:24. > :10:26.a stigma that you think exists about breast-feeding in public still?
:10:27. > :10:32.They're probably still is a stigma within some groups, but I think,
:10:33. > :10:37.with acknowledgements of public awareness such as this, hopefully
:10:38. > :10:44.times are changing and it is becoming more accepted. Across the
:10:45. > :10:47.whole population, I guess. It is welcoming, I have been desperate to
:10:48. > :10:52.feed and wondered if it was all right. Having that sign, saying
:10:53. > :10:56.you're welcome, it is helpful. I think still in this country,
:10:57. > :11:00.computer Sweden where I come from, you realised he people breast-feed
:11:01. > :11:06.out in public. -- compared to Sweden. And good that people can go
:11:07. > :11:09.out and have safe places to breast-feed where you know you are
:11:10. > :11:15.comfortable and there are facilities to change babies and just be left
:11:16. > :11:18.alone to feed them. This is one of more than 60 cafes, shops and
:11:19. > :11:24.restaurants in Aberdeen city centre that have signed up to the scheme,
:11:25. > :11:27.displaying the local saying they are breast-feeding friendly, so that
:11:28. > :11:31.women can see it is safe and secure for them to breast-feed. A lot of
:11:32. > :11:34.stigma still exists for breast-feeding in public, but the
:11:35. > :11:41.aim of the scheme is too rigid that and actually make it more acceptable
:11:42. > :11:45.to the public. -- to ridges that. It is when an's right to breast-feed in
:11:46. > :11:51.public but it is making it easier to do that. This cavity is already at
:11:52. > :11:56.even -- this place is already at haven for breast-feeding mums, but
:11:57. > :12:01.now it is official. That has been no negativity, we have been bold enough
:12:02. > :12:06.to say, come in, breast-feed. Breast-feeding class for new mothers
:12:07. > :12:11.in a maternity ward in the 1980s. Back then, nursing a baby in public
:12:12. > :12:14.would have been almost unheard of and would have undoubtedly caused a
:12:15. > :12:19.stir. How do the old generation of mothers feel about this new scheme?
:12:20. > :12:23.We get a lot of old ladies going past who have said, this is a nice
:12:24. > :12:26.group, we tell them it is a breast-feeding group and they have
:12:27. > :12:30.said they wished there was that support back when they were
:12:31. > :12:37.breast-feeding. At my age, we did not do it, but it is all changing
:12:38. > :12:41.now, very good. Wind your WordPress feeding tube would not have gone
:12:42. > :12:46.into a public place -- when you were breast-feeding, you would not have
:12:47. > :12:50.gone into a public place? I would have if it was happening, but
:12:51. > :12:55.everything had to be hidden. This is the local to look out for, dotted
:12:56. > :12:59.across Aberdeen city centre, but it is expanding into rural areas,
:13:00. > :13:01.another important step to a breast-feeding friendly society.
:13:02. > :13:06.Well, I'm joined from London by the SNP MP, Kirsty Blackman,
:13:07. > :13:08.who's argued that parliament needs to become more family-friendly,
:13:09. > :13:16.who's a member of NHS Grampian Breastfeeding Peer Support.
:13:17. > :13:22.Kirsty, would you say that breast-feeding in public is still a
:13:23. > :13:26.taboo? I think it is hard for some women to breast-feed in public.
:13:27. > :13:32.Actually part of that is because they are worrying about other
:13:33. > :13:36.people's reactions. I had to children and breast-fed. Them in
:13:37. > :13:42.public. In fact the first place was Aberdeen airport, which was mad and
:13:43. > :13:45.busy to start off with, and in my experience, you actually get fewer
:13:46. > :13:50.negative reactions than you expect, but I think the fear is there. The
:13:51. > :13:54.worry is there before you go out, whether or not someone will
:13:55. > :14:03.negatively react to you feeding your baby in public. Ivey, is that your
:14:04. > :14:07.experience, Wash is -- experience? Absolutely, as a peer supporter, I
:14:08. > :14:12.see women at the village talking about the fear of somebody saying
:14:13. > :14:16.something, knocking confidence, when they are trying to get established
:14:17. > :14:20.and I always tell them, look out for the local, safe places you can go
:14:21. > :14:25.where no one can't bother you and you can feed your baby as you are
:14:26. > :14:31.meant to. You think the fear is more imagined than real?
:14:32. > :14:40.So you think the fear is more imagined than real? Unfortunately I
:14:41. > :14:44.don't think so. Two gentleman today called me over and said they didn't
:14:45. > :14:47.agree with breast-feeding and that somebody was breast-feeding around
:14:48. > :14:53.them and he happened to see it he would be a pervert. That is the
:14:54. > :14:59.thing, because it seems in this society we see breasts in a
:15:00. > :15:05.sexualised way rather than something important to raising a child? One of
:15:06. > :15:08.the issues we have across the UK and Scotland as we don't have high
:15:09. > :15:13.breast-feeding rates any more so it is kind of a vicious cycle, once
:15:14. > :15:21.people stop breast-feeding people think it is strange and they stop
:15:22. > :15:25.seeing breasts for what their purpose is, and it is a vicious
:15:26. > :15:30.cycle we need to break out of and we need to make sure it is normal
:15:31. > :15:35.again. Do you think that is part of the problem, it is not just
:15:36. > :15:43.breast-feeding in public but breast-feeding in itself. We have
:15:44. > :15:49.only one in 200 breast-feeding after a year but in France and Canada it
:15:50. > :15:52.is almost one in ten. It is not just about breast-feeding a tiny baby as
:15:53. > :15:57.the World Health Organisation recommends until two. Rates are
:15:58. > :16:03.pretty good up until six weeks and then they stop and it is beneficial
:16:04. > :16:10.for more than just tiny babies. We can tell from your accent you are
:16:11. > :16:15.from the USA, attitude any better over there? It is mixed depending
:16:16. > :16:19.we're in the States. I grew up in Mitch Eadie on and I was nervous
:16:20. > :16:28.when I went back last Christmas. I had no problems but you never know
:16:29. > :16:33.and the laws don't always depending bounce-mac protects you depending on
:16:34. > :16:37.the region. As bad as the attitudes may be, breast-feeding is better
:16:38. > :16:41.than the United States than here. What is the situation like in the
:16:42. > :16:45.House of Commons? I know you have long battled with the authorities to
:16:46. > :16:51.make it more family friendly and you were censured for bringing your
:16:52. > :16:56.children into a committee hearing, we can you breast-feed in the Houses
:16:57. > :17:00.of Parliament? I have not tried it but it is not particularly child or
:17:01. > :17:04.breast-feeding friendly. They are known as public access to the
:17:05. > :17:07.buildings and I would be hugely supportive of anyone women coming in
:17:08. > :17:13.being able to breast-feed wherever they were in the building. We have
:17:14. > :17:17.family room in the House of Commons specifically for members and their
:17:18. > :17:23.children, and just to show you how it is coming into the 21st-century,
:17:24. > :17:30.the family room has just in the past six months got a baby changing
:17:31. > :17:35.station. Certainly, the owner is not a huge amount of awareness and
:17:36. > :17:39.acceptance that parents are going to have small children, and I think it
:17:40. > :17:42.is particularly important for people coming to give evidence to
:17:43. > :17:49.committees, for example. We are seeing not many women coming
:17:50. > :17:52.together of evidence and maybe childcare and breast-feeding as a
:17:53. > :17:56.barrier so we are looking at making those changes. And you say you never
:17:57. > :18:02.breast-fed in the house of parliament but have you seen any
:18:03. > :18:05.other is doing that? I am part of the all-party group so there are
:18:06. > :18:11.women who commented that that group and to see people on that group and
:18:12. > :18:14.they bring babies and have breast-fed, and I breast-fed in the
:18:15. > :18:19.council chamber when I was a counsellor. We need to keep doing
:18:20. > :18:24.these things and making these moves in order that Parliament and
:18:25. > :18:30.Councils are dragged into the 21st-century. Do you really think
:18:31. > :18:36.the House of Commons debating chamber would be unacceptable place
:18:37. > :18:39.to breast-feed a baby? I don't intend to breast-feed in the House
:18:40. > :18:43.of Commons chamber but if you want to speak any debate you maybe have
:18:44. > :18:49.to set for seven hours. If your MP has a baby then they might have to
:18:50. > :18:53.miss taking part in that debate and I don't think it is fear for the
:18:54. > :18:58.electorate to be disadvantaged just because a mother can't take her baby
:18:59. > :19:02.into the Commons chamber. I don't think babies should be interrupting
:19:03. > :19:07.proceedings but if there's an expectation on mothers to set for
:19:08. > :19:12.seven hours, I don't think they can do that. Do you think the problem
:19:13. > :19:17.generally as people are uncomfortable with the women's
:19:18. > :19:25.bodies? Yes, that is definitely it. People try to make everything
:19:26. > :19:28.sexualised, adverts on TV, but breasts are to feed babies and it is
:19:29. > :19:33.a wonderful and beautiful thing to be able to feed your child. And how
:19:34. > :19:36.much of a difference to you think this new initiative in Aberdeen will
:19:37. > :19:43.make? Is it already making a difference? I think so. I know I
:19:44. > :19:48.always tell people about it, they come to the peer support group I
:19:49. > :19:52.help run. It gives them that extra bit of confidence and when you first
:19:53. > :19:57.have baby it is very difficult to get breast-feeding established, let
:19:58. > :20:00.alone get out of the house. You want to help take that worry off of
:20:01. > :20:08.running into an incident that would make them feel more uncomfortable.
:20:09. > :20:12.Do you think that people in society have a problem with women's bodies?
:20:13. > :20:16.I think some people do and we need to get away from that. Breasts are
:20:17. > :20:17.for feeding babies and we need to be clear about that.
:20:18. > :20:19.Well, to discuss that and the rest of today's stories,
:20:20. > :20:21.I'm joined by the journalist, Katie Grant, and by
:20:22. > :20:26.the former editor of the Times in Scotland, Magnus Linklater.
:20:27. > :20:34.Let's talk first of all about the Dungavel detention centre, being
:20:35. > :20:38.replaced by a smaller facility so presumably that means more refugees
:20:39. > :20:44.being transported down to England? Yes, it is described as a holding
:20:45. > :20:50.centre, and a very short time they will be there, so the question, I
:20:51. > :20:55.suppose, is does that give them enough time to see a lawyer, to have
:20:56. > :21:00.a case heard, to make all the investigations they need to make?
:21:01. > :21:04.Presumably know who they will be shifted down south and that activity
:21:05. > :21:13.will be down in England rather than up year, and the interesting thing
:21:14. > :21:17.about it is, of course, the Scottish Government, which is much more keen
:21:18. > :21:25.to see more immigration has no control over this whatsoever. They
:21:26. > :21:28.didn't like Dungavel, and I was interested in the interview earlier,
:21:29. > :21:33.there was a suggestion that Don Gable might have been a better
:21:34. > :21:38.option! It was a horrible place surrounded by barbed wire and people
:21:39. > :21:42.spent far too long in it, but it allowed access to lawyers and four
:21:43. > :21:45.cases to be heard. And there is a worry that if more people have to go
:21:46. > :21:51.down to facilities near London it means they don't have access to,
:21:52. > :21:54.perhaps, family support from friends, but also the legal aid
:21:55. > :22:01.system is funded differently down there as well? It is a no-win
:22:02. > :22:05.situation, you have people there for too long or you have holding
:22:06. > :22:09.facility that looks better but they are only supposed to stay for the
:22:10. > :22:14.week and then taken back down to the South, so I don't know what the real
:22:15. > :22:19.answer is but we need to find some way .Mac we cannot just keep
:22:20. > :22:24.shelving it, we have to find some way of dealing with it, so that this
:22:25. > :22:28.new facility will help with that then it is good, but presumably
:22:29. > :22:32.nothing is set in stone and I imagine if it is not helping
:22:33. > :22:36.something will be done. There's a big cost factor and I noticed that
:22:37. > :22:42.the British government's statement made it quite clear it was a
:22:43. > :22:47.cost-saving exercise. If they turned around to the Scottish Government
:22:48. > :22:51.and said, will you look after these people, you must be the cost, I
:22:52. > :22:56.wonder whether the Scottish Government would be very happy about
:22:57. > :22:59.that. We had an interesting conversation about breast-feeding
:23:00. > :23:05.and it was interesting, I think the law was passed in 2005 in the
:23:06. > :23:09.Scottish parliament which made it illegal to discriminate against
:23:10. > :23:12.women if they were breast-feeding any public place, but it sounds as
:23:13. > :23:16.if it is one of those cases where laws alone do not change attitudes
:23:17. > :23:24.and you sometimes need schemes like the one starting in Aberdeen. It is
:23:25. > :23:27.often a generational thing. I grew up and dry they say Katie grew up in
:23:28. > :23:34.an atmosphere where it was frowned upon and people were embarrassed by
:23:35. > :23:39.it and frowned upon it. That has changed quite rapidly and I think
:23:40. > :23:45.everybody is pretty tolerant snow. I am the wrong person to ask, but the
:23:46. > :23:50.question for me, would be is the woman happy with her surroundings,
:23:51. > :23:55.feeding her baby in those surroundings, in a public place. The
:23:56. > :24:01.chamber of the House of Commons is the very last place I would want to
:24:02. > :24:06.feed my baby, what about you? I would agree because babies are quite
:24:07. > :24:12.distracting for the mother, because obviously your main preoccupation is
:24:13. > :24:16.the baby. I agree, I think it is important to be comfortable but I
:24:17. > :24:19.also took the point that if in there for seven hours you have baby you're
:24:20. > :24:23.likely to have to have to feed the baby. I like the idea of the
:24:24. > :24:27.initiative in Aberdeen because I think you are right and the law is
:24:28. > :24:31.not enough, you have to change people's attitudes, and it wasn't
:24:32. > :24:37.that in my day people didn't like breast-feeding but they didn't want
:24:38. > :24:40.to see it, so there's a push to breast-feeding .Mac we read
:24:41. > :24:44.sometimes stories in the papers about Nigel Farage famously once
:24:45. > :24:49.making a rather disparaging comments about breast-feeding women, but are
:24:50. > :24:54.just the exceptions? Sometimes they just see it for effect and I think
:24:55. > :24:56.most people know, and I was at a conference the other day when
:24:57. > :25:01.somebody was breast-feeding and nobody made any remark at all, and I
:25:02. > :25:05.think now one of the things about having a baby as if you are going to
:25:06. > :25:09.breast-feed it used to be quite lonely, you used to be by yourself a
:25:10. > :25:13.lot and you felt you had to be on your own, and so I think this
:25:14. > :25:18.initiative is great because it will get women out there and it is very
:25:19. > :25:21.nice to be with the lot of other women who also have babies so it
:25:22. > :25:26.will have more of an effect than just making women more comfortable
:25:27. > :25:27.feeding their babies in public. Let's talk about the gift that keeps
:25:28. > :25:28.on giving. David Coburn, the Scottish Ukip MEP,
:25:29. > :25:30.says he would consider standing for the party leadership
:25:31. > :25:32.he was asked. Ukip is looking for a new leader
:25:33. > :25:35.following the shock resignation of Diane James, who lasted 18 days
:25:36. > :25:48.in the top job. A lot of people suggested it but I
:25:49. > :25:53.will wait to see what people say. It is more important we can get
:25:54. > :25:56.somebody we can all unite around but obviously I have some experience of
:25:57. > :26:02.running Scotland so that would be helpful. We have a lot of very
:26:03. > :26:06.talented people in Ukip and we need to settle on somebody who will do a
:26:07. > :26:11.good job we can all agree with and that is the main thing. So is David
:26:12. > :26:17.Coburn a worthy candidate in your review? I don't know, we saw him in
:26:18. > :26:22.those TV debates and it wouldn't have said he was cutting edge, so I
:26:23. > :26:26.question whether he really has the calibre to lead the party, but on
:26:27. > :26:40.the other hand it seems to me like an only double party, a party that
:26:41. > :26:45.is falling apart. --. Whatever you say about Nigel Farage, he held the
:26:46. > :26:48.party together, and now they have achieved their principal objective
:26:49. > :26:53.and seemed to have lost sight of what they stand for. Leading it will
:26:54. > :26:59.be a challenge. Is it a problem that there is no obvious successor? The
:27:00. > :27:04.residents because every time there is one Nigel Farage has to come and
:27:05. > :27:07.be the successor. Please let David Coburn be the leader because there
:27:08. > :27:14.would be a huge implosion that would end them. Do you think he would be
:27:15. > :27:19.divisive? Surely not. The party has no purpose, the purposes a platform
:27:20. > :27:24.for Nigel Farage, and when he is not about it has no purpose. Number ten
:27:25. > :27:29.says it is very likely MPs will be able to vote on the final Brexit
:27:30. > :27:34.deal reached by the EU, quite a significant move? It is but it won't
:27:35. > :27:38.be enough for many MPs who want to be able to vote on it, they want to
:27:39. > :27:42.be able to vote before the final negotiation is made so they can have
:27:43. > :27:47.some influence but as it stands we will only be able to vote on the
:27:48. > :27:54.deal once it is done, and it will be too late. They want be able to break
:27:55. > :28:01.it up at that stage. They could vote against it giving a majority of MPs
:28:02. > :28:06.were for Remain? But at that late stage, 2019, when the deal is done,
:28:07. > :28:09.it would be a brave Parliament that would try to pull back from the
:28:10. > :28:14.brink. Do you think it is a formality and they will just have to
:28:15. > :28:21.go a long? I think they will, they are a band if they do and damp that
:28:22. > :28:24.they don't but we are quite myopic. We are pretending the House of
:28:25. > :28:30.Commons will be the final arbiter. The 27 other states of Europe will
:28:31. > :28:35.be the final arbiters, so what we say is only part of one enormous
:28:36. > :28:39.argument that is going on, so to dress this up is that it is somehow
:28:40. > :28:42.taking back control is not correct. Thank you both very much indeed.
:28:43. > :28:43.That's it for tonight. Thanks for watching.
:28:44. > :28:46.I'm back again tomorrow night, usual time.