:00:00. > :00:00.Student debt's doubled over the past decade,
:00:00. > :00:07.and the supply of university places is failing to keep up with demand.
:00:08. > :00:28.So how is the Scottish Government going to close the attainment gap?
:00:29. > :00:30.Good evening and welcome to Scotland 2016.
:00:31. > :00:33.Could dark days for universities spell the end of days
:00:34. > :00:40.Also tonight, it's only 17 years old but is the Scottish Parliament
:00:41. > :00:46.And with so few women pursuing a career in engineering,
:00:47. > :00:56.we'll be looking at attempts to redress the balance.
:00:57. > :00:58.Now, there's been a lot of talk recently about driving up
:00:59. > :01:03.But if Nicola Sturgeon is to close the attainment gap and boost
:01:04. > :01:06.the chances of young people from the least affluent backgrounds,
:01:07. > :01:11.then higher education looks like it could do with some urgent attention.
:01:12. > :01:15.According to Labour there are now 20,000 fewer students receiving
:01:16. > :01:17.grants and bursaries than at the beginning
:01:18. > :01:22.Add to that the threat from Brexit to our universities,
:01:23. > :01:25.which are so dependent on staff and students from abroad
:01:26. > :01:28.for research and revenue, and it's easy to think that
:01:29. > :01:33.Well, I'm joined in Edinburgh by the SNP's James Dornan,
:01:34. > :01:36.who's also convener of Holyrood's Education Committee,
:01:37. > :01:44.and Liz Smith, who's the Tories' spokesperson for education.
:01:45. > :01:53.James Dornan, you are going to abolish student debt in 2007. What
:01:54. > :02:01.happened? And number of things, one of them was called the financial
:02:02. > :02:06.crash. I wasn't here in 2007, I was elected in 2011 so cannot be held
:02:07. > :02:10.responsible for what happened in the circumstances changed after the
:02:11. > :02:16.election of 2007, no one realised what we would be facing. But we are
:02:17. > :02:19.hearing these figures that the number of students receiving
:02:20. > :02:25.bursaries and grants has fallen and debt has doubled. You see that as a
:02:26. > :02:31.problem or just the price we have to pay to four more students going to
:02:32. > :02:37.university? The amount of cash paid out in bursaries and grants was
:02:38. > :02:42.increased last year so there is a greater amount of cash going into
:02:43. > :02:46.the system. Liz Smith, there are conflicting views about these
:02:47. > :02:53.figures. Is there more money going into the system? There's been more
:02:54. > :02:57.money in the last two years but the crucial fact about the bursary
:02:58. > :03:01.system is that the fun thing in the last five years has almost halved in
:03:02. > :03:07.terms of the available bursary and grant support. Much more important
:03:08. > :03:13.than that is that the percentage share of the support available to
:03:14. > :03:20.students from bursaries used to be 22% five years ago, now down to 8%.
:03:21. > :03:25.That makes a difference because when it comes to bursaries and grants,
:03:26. > :03:30.these do not have to be repaid whereas the student loan which is
:03:31. > :03:34.now the bigger part of this, you do have to replay that, and that is
:03:35. > :03:41.hitting poorer students hardest. Would you accept that increasing
:03:42. > :03:44.bursaries and grants is more of an incentive to get students from
:03:45. > :03:52.deprived communities into university and loans put people off? We have to
:03:53. > :03:56.live in the world we are in. I find it ironic that a Conservative
:03:57. > :04:01.spokesperson who I have a great deal of respect for is suggesting we
:04:02. > :04:06.should be looking after the poorer students were suggesting they should
:04:07. > :04:11.pay tuition fees. There is an issue about making sure students can get
:04:12. > :04:16.to higher education that we have to live in the world we are in and make
:04:17. > :04:21.sure we use money wisely and we do not have an unending part of Monday.
:04:22. > :04:25.But you could put more into bursaries and grants rather than
:04:26. > :04:31.putting off this debt on the shoulders of students. Were not
:04:32. > :04:35.putting doubt on the shoulders of students, the debt in Scotland is
:04:36. > :04:41.less than in the rest of the UK. Times are difficult for everybody,
:04:42. > :04:45.nobody denies that but students in Scotland have had the best package
:04:46. > :04:52.over a number of years compared to other areas. Liz Smith, you want to
:04:53. > :04:58.get more in the way of bursaries but you will pay for that high taxing
:04:59. > :05:03.students after they graduate to the tune of ?1500 a year, so you are
:05:04. > :05:09.putting more emphasis on loans. Let's be clear about the situation
:05:10. > :05:12.with the university sector, every principle in the land is asking that
:05:13. > :05:19.more money goes into that sector, and to do that either you can ask
:05:20. > :05:23.the state to pay the bill, which will mean putting up taxation and in
:05:24. > :05:29.the last few days we have seen what business would think of that, or you
:05:30. > :05:33.take more money away from different areas of spending, which has
:05:34. > :05:39.happened to college budgets to enable the SNP to say they are
:05:40. > :05:42.funding free higher education, or at the alternative, which has been
:05:43. > :05:50.thought about right back to the days of Stewart Cink and, is to look back
:05:51. > :05:55.-- is to look for a graduate contribution, a part payment by
:05:56. > :06:01.students going to university. But what is wrong with tuition fees, at
:06:02. > :06:05.least in England where you have students paying for education there
:06:06. > :06:10.isn't a cap on numbers to university, but in Scotland there is
:06:11. > :06:14.a cap and we see demand outstrips supply, and that will hit some of
:06:15. > :06:20.the poorest students. Two things about that, one is that the
:06:21. > :06:26.principle of education being free is important and one we should try to
:06:27. > :06:30.stick to. There is no way in the world you will encourage people from
:06:31. > :06:35.poorer families come from families who have tried to make ends meet, to
:06:36. > :06:41.support a son or daughter to go to university when they will have to
:06:42. > :06:44.pay tuition fees with other debts. But if you look at other countries
:06:45. > :06:50.that have had these graduate contribution systems, the actual
:06:51. > :06:55.payment towards bursaries is much greater, you were not stopping
:06:56. > :06:59.people applying because there is an aspect of fee-paying. The bursary
:07:00. > :07:05.contribution has been greater, so more students attend from
:07:06. > :07:10.backgrounds. You were asking us to increase bursaries yet take a
:07:11. > :07:16.graduation tax, I don't see what the difference is. But certain trusts
:07:17. > :07:21.this year said young people from disadvantaged areas are four times
:07:22. > :07:25.less likely to go to university than those from wealthy backgrounds.
:07:26. > :07:31.There is a huge job to closed that attainment gap. Yes, there is a lot
:07:32. > :07:38.of work to do, some of it is cultural and some of it is about
:07:39. > :07:42.families who do not have a tradition of sending kids to university and we
:07:43. > :07:48.have to work through that, but there have been great steps taken and we
:07:49. > :07:53.have to continue along that line but not forget about the elephant in the
:07:54. > :07:57.room, the danger that Brexit is bringing to universities and future
:07:58. > :08:00.funding. We need to leave it there, we are out of time. Thank you.
:08:01. > :08:03.Now, do you remember all those years ago we were told
:08:04. > :08:05.the Scottish Parliament would herald a new era of open democracy,
:08:06. > :08:08.holding the politicians to account more effectively than they do
:08:09. > :08:11.Well, it seems Holyrood might be in need of reform
:08:12. > :08:13.because the Presiding Officer is setting up an independent
:08:14. > :08:15.commission to review the way it works.
:08:16. > :08:18.We'll discuss some possible ideas for improvement in a moment.
:08:19. > :08:35.Scotland's Parliament ceased to exist in 1707 but aspirations to
:08:36. > :08:40.restore it never went away. In 1989 the Scottish institutional
:08:41. > :08:45.convention's claim of right pledge to see an assembly established.
:08:46. > :08:50.David Gill maintained a constant presence in Edinburgh to keep up the
:08:51. > :08:58.pressure. Few people want a Scottish parliament? In 1997 the votes of
:08:59. > :09:06.Fife settled the matter once and for all. So now for the first time in
:09:07. > :09:13.nearly 300 years Scotland will have a Parliament. There shall be a
:09:14. > :09:17.Scottish parliament. I like that. But now the Presiding Officer is
:09:18. > :09:22.setting up an independent commission to look at the role of Holyrood in
:09:23. > :09:28.scrutinising legislation and its independence from government. We
:09:29. > :09:34.will have a range of new powers and I want MSPs and the public to have
:09:35. > :09:39.confidence that we can carry out government and be accessible to the
:09:40. > :09:43.public and I want this independent commission to look at all our
:09:44. > :09:47.processes and procedures and come back with recommendations so we can
:09:48. > :09:53.all have confidence that Parliament is fit for the next century. One
:09:54. > :09:57.former MSP who was there at the beginning welcomed the review,
:09:58. > :10:04.but... You have to be careful what sort of review it is. Will it be an
:10:05. > :10:09.establishment think where the usual suspects are on board to give their
:10:10. > :10:12.lofty opinions which take the boxes and come out with mild
:10:13. > :10:19.recommendations or will it be thorough and hard-hitting and for
:10:20. > :10:25.real improvement? She highlights the influence of civil servants. The
:10:26. > :10:30.establishment is strong in Holyrood and too much is dominated by
:10:31. > :10:33.officials. There are many good officials to set things up and are
:10:34. > :10:41.very clever but also quite a number of Sir Humphrey people who do not
:10:42. > :10:48.have that accent but have the Sir Humphrey desire to control and once
:10:49. > :10:53.things get under a blanket of officials it begins to go and MSPs
:10:54. > :10:57.need to be more assertive. The Presiding Officer says now is the
:10:58. > :11:03.right time for a review because Parliament is turning 21. I do not
:11:04. > :11:09.have a shopping list of reforms I want the commission to win loss, I
:11:10. > :11:13.want them to look at all our processes, how we engaged with
:11:14. > :11:18.government and hold the executive to account, how we engage with the
:11:19. > :11:23.public. We were set up to be more accessible and that needs to be
:11:24. > :11:27.referenced. There is still a monument commemorating the vigil
:11:28. > :11:33.that base for five years and Edwin Morgan's charged to the Parliament,
:11:34. > :11:40.read by Liz Lochhead, still sets out what many hope for from MSPs. A
:11:41. > :11:46.symposium of procrastinators is what they do not want. A phalanx of
:11:47. > :11:55.former Tigers is what they do not want. And perhaps, above all, the
:11:56. > :11:56.droopy mantra of it wasn't me is what they do not want.
:11:57. > :11:59.You can judge for yourself just how many of those were achieved!
:12:00. > :12:02.I'm joined here in the studio by Dr Craig McAngus of the Centre
:12:03. > :12:04.of Constitutional Change at Aberdeen University,
:12:05. > :12:06.and from Edinburgh by the Scotsman's Joyce McMillan,
:12:07. > :12:09.who was a member of the group which advised on the Scottish
:12:10. > :12:15.Parliament's procedures ahead of its establishment.
:12:16. > :12:23.How much of that original vision is still intact? Some of it, I think
:12:24. > :12:28.some aspects of the Scottish Parliament by there to be proud of,
:12:29. > :12:33.I think the quality of the debate, have is not in the round of First
:12:34. > :12:39.Minister's Questions which people see that the general level of debate
:12:40. > :12:44.can be strong, especially on social issues which a lot of MSPs are very
:12:45. > :12:48.concerned with and I think some aspects of the Parliament's
:12:49. > :12:54.openness, its petition system and so one have been much admired and
:12:55. > :13:00.imitated, but 18 years have passed, as Ken Macintosh says there has been
:13:01. > :13:03.a huge technical to call revolution and one thing which is disappointed
:13:04. > :13:07.has been the failure of the committee system to live up to the
:13:08. > :13:13.high hopes people had at the beginning of the Parliament. The
:13:14. > :13:16.committees are widely seen as inadequately resourced and not
:13:17. > :13:22.independent enough to hold Parliament to account when we don't
:13:23. > :13:27.have a second chamber. A complaint in the last parliament is that with
:13:28. > :13:28.a majority government it was SNP dominated but there are more
:13:29. > :13:41.structural issues? Certainly, it is unusual for a party
:13:42. > :13:47.to do as well as the SNP did in 2011, winning almost half the votes.
:13:48. > :13:51.It is very rare anywhere in European politics, and it was down to the
:13:52. > :13:57.sheer strength of their performance. But yes, there are structural
:13:58. > :14:01.issues, such as not enough MSPs. If you look at the weight of
:14:02. > :14:07.responsibility is that the Scottish Parliament now has, and the number
:14:08. > :14:12.of areas it has to legislate on. It is trying to deal with at least two
:14:13. > :14:16.thirds of the work Westminster does with one fifth of the number of
:14:17. > :14:26.members. It seems there are not enough members. Let me bring Craig
:14:27. > :14:30.in here. On that committee system, the committees in the Scottish
:14:31. > :14:34.Parliament do not make the headlines in the way Westminster ones do. Is
:14:35. > :14:41.that because they do not have the legal power to call witnesses? It
:14:42. > :14:46.could be. They don't calling people like Russell Brand, so they don't
:14:47. > :14:50.get the headlines. Joyce makes a good point. This is something that
:14:51. > :14:56.academics in the field have been studying for the last ten or 15
:14:57. > :15:07.years - how effective the committees are. Clearly, a lot of things that
:15:08. > :15:12.happen in committees may or may not, you know, happen... In the Scottish
:15:13. > :15:17.Parliament, for example, the Scottish Government has its
:15:18. > :15:22.pre-legislative agenda scrutinised by the committee, or can do. So the
:15:23. > :15:25.committees can have a look at what the Scottish Government is doing
:15:26. > :15:31.before it gets to the committee stage. So some of the issues that
:15:32. > :15:37.may arise at committee stage later on don't do some. So in some
:15:38. > :15:41.respects, committees have been very effective, but the under resourcing
:15:42. > :15:50.has been a factor. In terms of research? Back up? Staff, time,
:15:51. > :16:00.members... You are looking at a pool of about 80 MSPs that are available
:16:01. > :16:07.to fill up 16, 17 or 18 committees. It is very thin on the ground for
:16:08. > :16:12.MSPs to staff that. The majority of Parliamentary staff work on
:16:13. > :16:17.constituency business. They are not working on committee business, so
:16:18. > :16:24.there's a real capacity problem. But in increasing the size of the civil
:16:25. > :16:29.service, there is a danger. In that report, it was made clear that the
:16:30. > :16:36.civil service is too powerful in Scotland. You want a balance. What
:16:37. > :16:41.we are not getting, because of the Parliament not being big enough, is
:16:42. > :16:45.the kind of career committed chairs, like the famous Margaret Hodge of
:16:46. > :16:52.West Minister's Public Accounts Committee, who can really carve a
:16:53. > :16:56.Parliamentary life for themselves, chairing committees and becoming
:16:57. > :17:03.very powerful, knowledgeable forces. And they are then in a position to
:17:04. > :17:08.ask and tell the officials what to do. Even without increasing the size
:17:09. > :17:14.of the Parliament, a step we could take is to make it a rule of the
:17:15. > :17:20.Scottish Parliament that if you take on the chair of a big committee, you
:17:21. > :17:25.have to remain in the chair for the session and not be tempted away by
:17:26. > :17:32.the offer of ministerial office. Is one of the problem is not having a
:17:33. > :17:36.second, upper chamber? It doesn't have to be a problem. There are many
:17:37. > :17:44.legislatures around the world that have just one chamber, and act very
:17:45. > :17:59.effectively. These unique Amaral parliaments have very effective
:18:00. > :18:00.committee capacities. It is not a problem that Scotland has just one
:18:01. > :18:04.chamber. Thank you. Engineering is still
:18:05. > :18:05.a male-dominated business. One estimate suggests
:18:06. > :18:08.there are eight times more men There've been many attempts
:18:09. > :18:11.in recent years to redress the balance, including today,
:18:12. > :18:13.when nearly 100 interested female pupils were brought together
:18:14. > :18:16.by Aberdeen University in a concerted campaign to get more
:18:17. > :18:33.girls into engineering. A lot of people think engineering is
:18:34. > :18:40.just offshore, doing the busy jobs, and not realising there's more to it
:18:41. > :18:43.than that. It just comes down to stereotyping, that women are more
:18:44. > :18:49.traditionally in humanities, and men do jobs that involve building or
:18:50. > :18:53.maths. Hopefully, that is changing, and events like this really helped.
:18:54. > :18:57.It is important for them to feel that they are not the only ones who
:18:58. > :19:03.want to do this, and it is possible for them to get a job there.
:19:04. > :19:10.Engineering seems to be a profession that attracts a very few girls.
:19:11. > :19:13.However, when they choose that profession, they performed
:19:14. > :19:19.brilliantly. As a female engineer, I feel we can give ourselves more
:19:20. > :19:24.opportunities, and that is why this event brings them to try and see
:19:25. > :19:27.that they actually have skills for this profession. This is what we are
:19:28. > :19:30.doing, trying to challenge the misperception. That is experienced
:19:31. > :19:32.in Aberdeen. Earlier I spoke to Talat Yaqoob
:19:33. > :19:34.from Equate Scotland - the organisation that aims
:19:35. > :19:46.to increase the numbers of women There is clearly a massive imbalance
:19:47. > :19:49.between the genders. If women are saying they are not particularly
:19:50. > :19:55.interested in engineering jobs, Weiss fight against that natural
:19:56. > :20:04.instinct? We do not have people say that they are not interested in
:20:05. > :20:10.those jobs. If we were looking at natural merit, we would have an
:20:11. > :20:14.equal number of young women pursuing stem related subjects. We are
:20:15. > :20:21.finding there isn't the same level of choice available for girls as
:20:22. > :20:25.there are for boys, for women as there are four men. It's not a case
:20:26. > :20:31.of fighting something natural, it's a case of providing real choice for
:20:32. > :20:37.women to pursue their interests and capabilities. There is choice. Girls
:20:38. > :20:41.can study physics, chemistry, biology and maths at school. The
:20:42. > :20:46.opportunities are there, but they are just not doing so in such great
:20:47. > :20:53.numbers. There is a bigger pattern of inequality. Last year, of all the
:20:54. > :20:59.pupils who took physics at higher level, only 23% were girls. If it
:21:00. > :21:05.was natural, it would be a much more equal number. There are stereotypes
:21:06. > :21:09.and biases at play here that prevent girls from seeing stem related
:21:10. > :21:17.subjects as being for girls. We have an out dated view of engineering,
:21:18. > :21:23.that it is particularly masculine as a pursuit. We need to overcome these
:21:24. > :21:28.perceptions. I can see there might be a male stereotype when it comes
:21:29. > :21:34.to engineering jobs, but subjects at school like physics and maths - what
:21:35. > :21:39.is male about those subjects? It is about the stereotypes we have at a
:21:40. > :21:43.young age. If young girls are not encouraged to pursue those subjects,
:21:44. > :21:48.whether it's the toys they are given all the conversations they hear
:21:49. > :21:54.around them. Media portrayals of science and engineering in what they
:21:55. > :21:59.watch. They might have a bias that that is not for them. It is
:22:00. > :22:06.important that we overcome that stereotype, and make sure that girls
:22:07. > :22:11.know that pursuits of any type are not gender-based, and are there for
:22:12. > :22:16.them to push you. It is an obvious question, but why does any of this
:22:17. > :22:23.actually matter? Women could go off and do other careers that and just
:22:24. > :22:29.as much. It matters to the Scottish economy. By 2020, Scotland needs
:22:30. > :22:34.140,000 more engineers. We have to take populations of women with us to
:22:35. > :22:39.reach that target. It matters when it comes to women's social
:22:40. > :22:45.inequality. The majority of jobs in the future are going to be in stem
:22:46. > :22:51.related careers. If we don't do more to get women into those subjects, we
:22:52. > :22:56.will exacerbate the problem we already have of occupational
:22:57. > :23:01.segregation, and we will exacerbate gender and economic inequality. It
:23:02. > :23:07.matters to the economy, and two women's social justice. What can you
:23:08. > :23:11.do about it? Equate Scotland specialises in this. Just today
:23:12. > :23:16.there was a conference for young girls to come into the university
:23:17. > :23:20.from the local area, and see what engineering is all about. That is an
:23:21. > :23:28.example of one intervention. Equate Scotland provides placements and
:23:29. > :23:34.opportunities for graduates to have opportunities, to go into businesses
:23:35. > :23:40.and stay there. We encourage women to remain in stem sectors and then
:23:41. > :23:44.rise up in the ranks. We develop and challenge the industry, so that we
:23:45. > :23:48.have policies and practices in place to create an inclusive environment
:23:49. > :23:54.that is welcoming to women, and looking for women's leadership. We
:23:55. > :23:57.need a combination of all those efforts to create real change at a
:23:58. > :24:00.fast pace. Thank you for joining us. Now, joining me to discuss
:24:01. > :24:02.the day's big stories are Marianne Taylor and David Leask,
:24:03. > :24:12.who are both from The Herald. Talking about Parliamentary reform
:24:13. > :24:18.there. Ken Mackintosh, the leader of Holyrood, wants to make changes.
:24:19. > :24:24.What changes need to be made? There is some room for change. As we heard
:24:25. > :24:28.earlier, I'm not sure that the Parliament has had the level of
:24:29. > :24:34.scrutiny it's needed over the years, but it is a Parliament. I am very
:24:35. > :24:41.much in favour of having another chamber. It may not be hugely
:24:42. > :24:46.popular with those who have to pay for it, but I think it is the right
:24:47. > :24:53.thing to do. That sounds as bad as the idea of having ordinarily MSPs
:24:54. > :24:57.-- having more ordinarily MSPs. Is the idea going to wash with the
:24:58. > :25:05.public? I think the idea of having another chamber is going to do
:25:06. > :25:11.better. We need more scrutiny. More MSPs is not the same... I think
:25:12. > :25:16.another chamber is different. Would it be elected, or would we appoint
:25:17. > :25:22.business people or academics? I would be in favour of an elected
:25:23. > :25:25.chamber. I know it is hard to get people out to vote, but in
:25:26. > :25:34.principle, it is the right things to do. First past the post MSPs, list
:25:35. > :25:43.MSPs, a second chamber... It could get very complicated. Many think of
:25:44. > :25:49.our politicians as ghastly, and some are, but they are not all as bad as
:25:50. > :25:53.they appear. Ken Mackintosh has made some wise remarks about how we have
:25:54. > :26:02.had a very tribalistic debate in the last ten years in Scotland. I think
:26:03. > :26:07.politicians are better than we make them appear. As part of the problem
:26:08. > :26:11.being the calibre of politician? For the Labour Party in the past, there
:26:12. > :26:18.was always the sense that the best talent went to West Minister and the
:26:19. > :26:25.second division stayed in Holyrood. It has perhaps stretched the amount
:26:26. > :26:31.of talent it has, and people who are maybe not quite so good have got
:26:32. > :26:37.into elected offices. But some of those accidental MSPs have been
:26:38. > :26:44.quite good. If we allow them time to breathe, to be MPs and MSPs, we can
:26:45. > :26:51.find those dissenting, neighbourly, nuanced voices, those cross partisan
:26:52. > :26:57.voices, and let them be heard in the Parliament. Let's talk about First
:26:58. > :26:59.Minister Nicola Sturgeon. She's been talking at the annual economic Forum
:27:00. > :27:02.in Edinburgh about Brexit. I think there is a real opportunity
:27:03. > :27:05.to present to the UK Government a unified Scottish position,
:27:06. > :27:16.an all-Scotland coalition And all Scotland coalition. What
:27:17. > :27:22.does that mean and will it be successful? This is all part of her
:27:23. > :27:31.move to play to a more European audience. We saw the German
:27:32. > :27:37.newspaper, their version of the FC, with a very prominent article
:27:38. > :27:42.earlier today about how she is out there, Nicola Sturgeon, and is the
:27:43. > :27:48.only one in the UK, from their point of view, who has any sort of
:27:49. > :27:53.strength of opposition to Brexit. She has many admirers across Europe.
:27:54. > :28:02.This week we have seen the pressure piled on for a hearing for Scotland,
:28:03. > :28:06.a new deal for Scotland. Whether Theresa May will have anything to do
:28:07. > :28:12.with that is something else. She has her own voters to look to. If she
:28:13. > :28:17.finds an audience in Europe of all the institutions that are able to be
:28:18. > :28:26.pragmatic, the European Union is one of them. She might be finding an
:28:27. > :28:32.audience, or a lot of sympathy out there. But it is nothing if not
:28:33. > :28:41.backed by action. It's nothing of the -- if the leaders of Europe
:28:42. > :28:44.don't get behind her. Previous hostility to Nicola Sturgeon's
:28:45. > :28:53.independence project is evaporating in Europe now. Europe can be
:28:54. > :29:01.flexible, but can Britain be? Some months ago, long before the Brexit
:29:02. > :29:06.votes, there was a story featuring all sorts of ways in which Scotland
:29:07. > :29:12.could have a differentiated voice in Europe after Brexit. They are no
:29:13. > :29:16.more absurd than Scotland being pulled out of the European Union
:29:17. > :29:22.against its will. Can Theresa May be as flexible in recognising a
:29:23. > :29:30.multinational union on her own island? Is it not a hideously
:29:31. > :29:38.complex issue? Anything is possible. I'm not sure it's probable, but if
:29:39. > :29:41.the European Union wanted to make it work, they could. Thank you both
:29:42. > :29:43.very much indeed. I'm back again tomorrow
:29:44. > :29:46.night, usual time. Marlon James has been labelled
:29:47. > :30:00.a troublemaker for his novels exploring
:30:01. > :30:04.Jamaica's violent past, but the real threat was to come from
:30:05. > :30:07.his own personal demons. Whether it was in a plane
:30:08. > :30:10.or a coffin,