:00:00. > :00:08.Is providing a safe place for people to inject drugs under supervision
:00:09. > :00:30.the way forward or simply enabling harmful behaviour?
:00:31. > :00:34.Plans for so-called "fix rooms" for drug addicts have been given
:00:35. > :00:37.the go-ahead in Glasgow - we'll hear from experts,
:00:38. > :00:44.The living wage workers receive is going up, but how
:00:45. > :00:46.is the amount we need to live on calculated?
:00:47. > :00:48.And in the US, the FBI is investigating Hillary
:00:49. > :00:59.We get the view from across the pond.
:01:00. > :01:01.A partnership of councillors, police and health professionals has
:01:02. > :01:06.given approval in principle for Glasgow to set up so-called "fix
:01:07. > :01:11.They'd be safe places, where addicts could take
:01:12. > :01:15.More details of exactly where and how it's planned
:01:16. > :01:17.to provide what's officially known as a "Safer Consumption Facility"
:01:18. > :01:24.We'll debate the pros and cons in a moment.
:01:25. > :01:27.First, Huw Williams has been hearing from two people who've been clean
:01:28. > :01:30.for the past three years, but who know first hand what life
:01:31. > :01:39.You may find some of the details distressing.
:01:40. > :01:47.By the time I had reached my teenage years, this community had witnessed
:01:48. > :01:54.a real explosion of drugs, lots of drugs had come into the community
:01:55. > :02:00.and my friends and everybody I was being friends with kind of started
:02:01. > :02:05.using drugs. It was a progression from when I was at high school from
:02:06. > :02:10.the age of 14 and getting involved with alcohol and experimenting with
:02:11. > :02:14.harsh. It was a progression and I left home at the age of 16 and went
:02:15. > :02:18.to university in Edinburgh are to study psychology and got involved
:02:19. > :02:21.with different influences and progressed through different drugs
:02:22. > :02:27.with the dance and music scene of the time. I never thought I would
:02:28. > :02:36.use heroine but in my final -- final year at university I did. In and out
:02:37. > :02:38.of prison, I thought about injecting drugs and that brought about
:02:39. > :02:48.problems like abscesses, infections, blood clots and that brings me to
:02:49. > :02:54.the attention of A and being in hospitals. I reached my rock bottom,
:02:55. > :03:02.for me, I had to have two lengthy hospital admissions. I split up with
:03:03. > :03:11.my partner. I had isolated myself from a lot of people. I was
:03:12. > :03:15.desperate. I knew that if I continued to use drugs that
:03:16. > :03:22.ultimately I could end up dying. I have had friends who I grew up with
:03:23. > :03:25.through school who have died in this community as a result of addiction
:03:26. > :03:32.and drug overdoses and stuff like that. I have had friends who have
:03:33. > :03:41.died with the anthrax scare and lost limbs through injection of heroin
:03:42. > :03:44.and anthrax but I always had that ability to kind of like myself and
:03:45. > :03:48.convince myself that that would never happen to me. There were
:03:49. > :03:55.occasions when I had to travel into the city centre to buy drugs and I
:03:56. > :03:59.did end up using drugs in flats and places that were quite idiotic, with
:04:00. > :04:03.people that I did not know and people that I did not necessarily
:04:04. > :04:07.want to be with and I think now that if there had been his revised
:04:08. > :04:12.consumption available, then I could have gone there and perhaps got
:04:13. > :04:20.access to the help that I needed at an earlier stage. You might find
:04:21. > :04:27.that they do not want to do it any more. Why is a safe injection room
:04:28. > :04:32.key to removing the chaos? It's those people speaking about up and
:04:33. > :04:36.down the lanes, it removes the chaos involved of having to run and get
:04:37. > :04:42.needles, having to seek somewhere to inject, overdosing on the streets of
:04:43. > :04:46.the city centre, it also keeps them safe. For a lot of people, it is
:04:47. > :04:51.just enough for someone to come and ask them how they are doing, that
:04:52. > :04:55.means a lot, society as a whole has to start looking at these people and
:04:56. > :04:59.helping them to reduce the damage that they do to themselves because
:05:00. > :05:00.quite often they are already damaged people.
:05:01. > :05:02.That report from reporter Huw Williams and producer
:05:03. > :05:05.Well, joining me to discuss today's developments are Kirsten Horsburgh
:05:06. > :05:08.from the Scottish Drugs Forum, who's in Dundee, and Dr Ian Oliver,
:05:09. > :05:11.who was Chief Constable of both Grampian and Central Scotland Police
:05:12. > :05:14.and is now a member of the Institute On Global Drug Policy,
:05:15. > :05:38.Good evening to both of you. Thank you for joining us.
:05:39. > :05:46.Kirsten, I will come to you first. What do you think about this? Last
:05:47. > :05:49.year I spent two weeks in Sydney's medically supervised injecting
:05:50. > :05:53.centre and saw the benefits that these services can provide. I do not
:05:54. > :05:57.think that it is the only solution, absolutely not, but as part of an
:05:58. > :06:02.evidence -based strategy to try and reduce drug-related deaths and
:06:03. > :06:06.reduce some of the harms that cost by problematic drug use, I think it
:06:07. > :06:09.is a fantastic step forward. Dr Oliver, you have looked at
:06:10. > :06:12.international examples, but I do not think that you share the thought
:06:13. > :06:18.that this is the best way forward? What do you think is wrong with this
:06:19. > :06:22.idea? What is clearly wrong with the idea is that an issue repeal the
:06:23. > :06:24.misuse of drugs at the idea is totally illegal. It would be
:06:25. > :06:30.completely and absolutely against the law to do what is being proposed
:06:31. > :06:34.and we hear people talking in good faith about evidence-based research
:06:35. > :06:40.and what has gone on elsewhere around the world, the United Nations
:06:41. > :06:46.office on drugs and crime is against these sites. I have worked anyone in
:06:47. > :06:49.Vancouver, I have seen what goes on there and the primary objective of
:06:50. > :06:55.any government must be rather like the medical profession, firstly to
:06:56. > :06:58.do no harm. Therefore it should not be doing anything that promotes the
:06:59. > :07:02.continuation of drug misuse or the misuse of drugs. And certainly the
:07:03. > :07:07.idea of people taking their own drugs into a place in which to
:07:08. > :07:10.inject them is verging on the totally irresponsible. I cannot see
:07:11. > :07:18.that that will in any way reduce deaths, the spread of diseases any
:07:19. > :07:21.community or preventing people from continuing to take drugs. The other
:07:22. > :07:24.thing you must bear in mind is that even if you had the legal authority
:07:25. > :07:28.to set up these legal injecting rooms, you do not really think that
:07:29. > :07:32.people on heroine will just use the drugs in the injecting them? They
:07:33. > :07:36.will continue to use them on the streets 24 hours each day. I have
:07:37. > :07:40.not heard a proposal that these rooms will be open 24 hours each
:07:41. > :07:46.day. So it is not doing anything to reduce drugs and the only way in
:07:47. > :07:49.reality, and the ideal world, I admit, the only way for people who
:07:50. > :07:55.want to get off drugs and get rehabilitated as education... On the
:07:56. > :07:59.legal issue, the Lord Advocate would have to give the permission to
:08:00. > :08:04.repeal the misuse of drugs act. Kirsten, coming back to you...
:08:05. > :08:07.Before you go to her, with respect, I do not think that the Lord
:08:08. > :08:12.Advocate has the authority. It is not a devolved thing. You cannot
:08:13. > :08:16.suddenly see Weibo repeal the misuse of drugs act in Scotland and say it
:08:17. > :08:21.will not operate here. It is from Westminster and the likelihood of
:08:22. > :08:25.that happening is very unlikely. Kirsten, the legal ability was
:08:26. > :08:28.present, is the political will present to do this? The Scottish
:08:29. > :08:33.Government has said it has no intention of looking at this on a
:08:34. > :08:37.nationwide scale. Yes, there have been lots of discussion is
:08:38. > :08:40.obviously. Now that the full business case has been put to go
:08:41. > :08:45.ahead, those discussions will become more formalised and the key
:08:46. > :08:50.stakeholders will have discussions about it. Going back to a point that
:08:51. > :08:53.Dr Oliver made, he talked about firstly doing no harm, well, I would
:08:54. > :08:58.say that these facilities reduce the harm and that is what we should be
:08:59. > :09:01.focusing upon, reducing the harms caused by problems drugs use and
:09:02. > :09:05.that sometimes involves starting at the very basics by providing a
:09:06. > :09:10.service so that people can access it. We already provide people with
:09:11. > :09:13.sterile injecting equipment and providing them with a sterile
:09:14. > :09:18.environment in which the use drugs is a natural and obvious next step.
:09:19. > :09:22.But does it not just enable their habit? Does it address their habit
:09:23. > :09:27.and is there evidence that it can actually reduce addiction? Yes, that
:09:28. > :09:31.was another thing that Dr Oliver raised about the evidence, there are
:09:32. > :09:37.no less than 135 published research papers showing the clear benefits of
:09:38. > :09:40.the services. Some of those are about reducing drug-related deaths.
:09:41. > :09:45.There have been Ms Eagle overdose fatalities in any supervised
:09:46. > :09:48.injecting centre anywhere in the world. There are about 90 of these
:09:49. > :09:52.facilities which have been in operation for over 30 years. The
:09:53. > :09:56.reduce the incidence of blood-borne viruses because they provide access
:09:57. > :10:02.to sterile injecting equipment but more importantly, what they do do is
:10:03. > :10:06.that they provide a dignified and respectful and compassionate service
:10:07. > :10:10.to some of the most marginalised and vulnerable people in our society.
:10:11. > :10:14.Just treating people as human beings and being able to get them in the
:10:15. > :10:17.door to a service that can link them into other services that can help
:10:18. > :10:22.them address some of the problems they are having in their lives. Some
:10:23. > :10:26.pies for people for drugs are not the biggest problem in their lives
:10:27. > :10:32.and it can be a tick past that they have. Homeless situations etc. Dr
:10:33. > :10:42.Oliver, on that situation of chaos, we heard in the film from Thomas and
:10:43. > :10:46.Claire. If they had had the support, might things have been different for
:10:47. > :10:50.them? Do you except that is the case? It is really perpetuating the
:10:51. > :10:53.use of drugs which is what we are supposed to be posing and I do not
:10:54. > :11:00.think that the overwhelming evidence from around the world indicates what
:11:01. > :11:07.you are telling us, the view of the lady in Dundee. If it was possible,
:11:08. > :11:10.and we are talking in many respects about the ideal and I know that is
:11:11. > :11:16.not always achievable, but people firstly have to got to wish to get
:11:17. > :11:20.off drugs and secondly they need help with rehabilitation. People
:11:21. > :11:24.already have been prescribed heroin since as long ago as 1920 and a
:11:25. > :11:29.limited number of cases but all that does is perpetuate the use of drugs
:11:30. > :11:33.and the other thing that it also does is that if you set up one
:11:34. > :11:36.centre in Glasgow, if that were legally possible, and at the moment
:11:37. > :11:41.I do not believe for one minute that it is, if there's was a legal
:11:42. > :11:45.possibility for that, you are sending out the message to young and
:11:46. > :11:49.impressionable vulnerable people, well, drugs are not all that bad, if
:11:50. > :11:54.I get into problems I can go and get help and get off of them. It does
:11:55. > :11:59.not work like that. Deaths do not reduce, the spread of diseases is
:12:00. > :12:03.not reduced and that has been a case from Australia, the Netherlands,
:12:04. > :12:08.Germany... Kirsten, a very quick last word from you, your response?
:12:09. > :12:12.With all due respect, I completely disagree with all the points made.
:12:13. > :12:16.The evidence is strong from all of the areas and published papers from
:12:17. > :12:20.the centres. Having spent to beat in the centre I can tell you that the
:12:21. > :12:25.evidence is present to reduce all of those things that Dr Oliver state is
:12:26. > :12:28.not the case. There would be clear what is going forward but the Crown
:12:29. > :12:33.Office to address some of the legal issues in Scotland and certainly we
:12:34. > :12:35.hope that that will be the case. Kirsten Horsburgh and Doctor Ian
:12:36. > :12:40.Oliver, thank you both for joining us.
:12:41. > :12:43.Good news today for those who earn the living wage.
:12:44. > :12:46.A new rate of ?8.45 an hour has been set for the UK, excluding London.
:12:47. > :12:48.The 20p increase was independently calculated
:12:49. > :12:50.by the Living Wage Foundation based on what employees and their families
:12:51. > :12:55.Well, shortly before we came on air, I spoke to Katherine Chapman,
:12:56. > :13:03.who's director of the Living Wage Foundation.
:13:04. > :13:08.Living wage is calculated based on what is needed for a basic but
:13:09. > :13:13.acceptable standard of living, so it covers things like child care,
:13:14. > :13:19.transport, food, household bills, housing, all the things that are to
:13:20. > :13:22.make and make a decent standard of living. That will have changed over
:13:23. > :13:27.time. How happy are you to get to this point and what has the Johnny
:13:28. > :13:31.Bean to get here? We have had a National Minimum Wage for some time,
:13:32. > :13:36.what is the jump from minimum wage to living wage? The living wage
:13:37. > :13:45.rates announced today are ?8.45 in the UK and that compares to a
:13:46. > :13:47.National Minimum Wage of ?7.20. This really is a robust calculation. It
:13:48. > :13:49.has been overseen by an independent committee from businesses, civil
:13:50. > :13:54.society and trade unions and it really takes into account the most
:13:55. > :13:57.up-to-date figures and data on what it cost to live in the country. Is
:13:58. > :14:03.it fair to say that the living wage is something that is a movement of
:14:04. > :14:06.different people that has been campaigning for and that employers
:14:07. > :14:10.will end up picking up the bill but that the government is taking the
:14:11. > :14:13.credit for it? It is fantastic to have the support of politicians and
:14:14. > :14:17.it was brilliant to have the First Minister announce the late this
:14:18. > :14:21.morning. But really, this is a movement about employers choosing to
:14:22. > :14:24.go further so the real living wage is a voluntary rate, employers
:14:25. > :14:31.choose to pay it because they want to make sure that their employees
:14:32. > :14:34.have a decent quality of life and enough to live on. The campaign
:14:35. > :14:37.started 15 years ago in east London but it has grown from strength to
:14:38. > :14:41.strength in the past two years and Scotland has seen some of the
:14:42. > :14:45.fastest growth over the past year and there is only 700 employers in
:14:46. > :14:49.Scotland paying the real living wage, that is an increase of 300
:14:50. > :14:52.from last year. They choose to pay it because they want to make sure
:14:53. > :14:56.their employees have enough to live on, they are not waiting for the
:14:57. > :14:58.government to tell them what to do, they are choosing because they think
:14:59. > :15:04.it is the right thing to do for their employees and it makes good
:15:05. > :15:07.business sense. Is it correct that the onus is put on businesses and
:15:08. > :15:10.this will include employers like local authorities as well? It is
:15:11. > :15:14.about getting the right balance between businesses and government.
:15:15. > :15:18.That is why the rates take into account tax and benefits as well as
:15:19. > :15:21.the cost of living. Really, the employers that we work with, they
:15:22. > :15:24.tell us they choose to do this because it is the right thing to do
:15:25. > :15:29.but they also see the business benefits. A lot of those that we
:15:30. > :15:33.work with tellers that one paying the living wage, staff turnover goes
:15:34. > :15:36.down, absenteeism rates dropped and productivity rises so it can have
:15:37. > :15:41.tangible benefits on the bottom line as well as being the right thing to
:15:42. > :15:45.do. Presumably it does not stop here, inflation is on the up so the
:15:46. > :15:50.concept of a living wage now will be different in six monster-mac time,
:15:51. > :15:55.is this something that will require constantly view? That is correct.
:15:56. > :16:00.The rates are updated annually to do just that, to take into account the
:16:01. > :16:02.cost of living. Every November then living wage week, the new rates will
:16:03. > :16:06.be announced and we would expect them to increase because the cost of
:16:07. > :16:09.living will increase. How much do you take into account things like
:16:10. > :16:14.social life and holidays, things that people would consider to be
:16:15. > :16:18.part of a happy life, you could see? The bid is based on a basket of
:16:19. > :16:23.goods and services and it will include things like the odd treat,
:16:24. > :16:27.for example, a birthday present for a child on their birthday. These are
:16:28. > :16:33.basic things, I do not think you would describe them as luxuries, and
:16:34. > :16:40.that is what the cost of living calculation will take into account.
:16:41. > :16:42.Now, over the weekend, yet another storm in this turbulent
:16:43. > :16:44.US election year has been steadily brewing.
:16:45. > :16:46.On Friday, the director of the FBI, James Comey, announced
:16:47. > :16:49.an investigation into material that may relate to Hillary Clinton's use
:16:50. > :16:51.of unofficial emails, while she was Secretary of State.
:16:52. > :16:53.The latest emails were found in a separate investigation
:16:54. > :16:55.into allegations that former congressman, Anthony Weiner,
:16:56. > :16:57.sent illicit text messages to a 15-year-old girl.
:16:58. > :17:01.Mr Weiner is separated from Mrs Clinton's close
:17:02. > :17:09.I've been speaking to James Fallows, who's national correspondent
:17:10. > :17:11.for The Atlantic magazine, based in Washington DC,
:17:12. > :17:14.and I started by asking him how unusual such an intervention is,
:17:15. > :18:10.This is a violation of an act. That is viewed as being something of a
:18:11. > :18:14.breach because director call me of the FBI was not trying to intervene
:18:15. > :18:18.directly but I think it has been impressed on me how veterans of the
:18:19. > :18:24.FBI and the Justice Department from both parties including to adjourn
:18:25. > :18:28.the journal's of George W Bush have rushed in to say that whether or not
:18:29. > :18:31.this was illegal, it was almost unbelievable bad judgment and
:18:32. > :18:36.recklessness. There has been a development today involving Russian
:18:37. > :18:39.allegations which scores that. Director Comey decided not to
:18:40. > :18:45.release that information if you weeks ago because it might disturb
:18:46. > :18:52.that might be disturbing. And how much pressure would James
:18:53. > :18:57.Comey be under a given that the Trump campaign have made so much
:18:58. > :19:01.about calling foul, if you like, against Hillary Clinton's campaign?
:19:02. > :19:09.Do you think he would have felt under pressure to not appear
:19:10. > :19:14.partisan? Yes, he was a Republican and it is a ten year term from the
:19:15. > :19:18.FBI director which is meant precisely to insulate them from
:19:19. > :19:22.politics. Why this is being seen as a conflict between individual and
:19:23. > :19:29.institutional interest, the individual pressure on director
:19:30. > :19:32.Comey seems to have been his fear that something would come out about
:19:33. > :19:35.this latest crop of e-mails which made it seem significant that he
:19:36. > :19:40.would be individually blamed by the Republicans for covering it up
:19:41. > :19:44.poorly. The other argument by most former attorney generals and FBI
:19:45. > :19:47.directors was that there was an institutional and organisational
:19:48. > :19:54.political interest not to give -- get the FBI involved in this case so
:19:55. > :20:02.it could be seen that Comey has tried to protect himself against a
:20:03. > :20:11.reprisal from Republicans. How damaging is the inclusion of Anthony
:20:12. > :20:16.Wheeler in these e-mails? There is a jewel in Clinton world that the most
:20:17. > :20:19.conspiratorially interpretation of the Clintons is that over the years
:20:20. > :20:24.they have robbed out or eliminated their critics and the continued
:20:25. > :20:28.existence of Anthony Wiener is counter evidence to that because
:20:29. > :20:34.this man is a nightmare, he has been a nightmare for himself, of course,
:20:35. > :20:38.for his now separated wife who works for the Clinton campaign. So there
:20:39. > :20:42.is no one in American politics who at this moment is not embarrassed by
:20:43. > :20:46.Anthony Wiener, although Donald Trump went out of his way to thank
:20:47. > :20:53.him yesterday. How damaging could this be now for Hillary Clinton's
:20:54. > :20:56.campaign? It is the practical implications that are difficult to
:20:57. > :21:00.tell. My best guess is that this will not move the lot of votes and
:21:01. > :21:05.the reason is that for people who are already four Donald Trump and
:21:06. > :21:08.think that these e-mails are disqualified for Hillary Clinton,
:21:09. > :21:12.they already believe that. For people on the other night who are
:21:13. > :21:16.for Hillary Clinton and against Donald Trump, they think this does
:21:17. > :21:19.not change the fundamentals of how they view the election and for
:21:20. > :21:25.people in between, you know, I have heard arguments where people have
:21:26. > :21:29.said that this additional cloud will diminish things against Hillary
:21:30. > :21:36.Clinton. On the other hand, people are saying that this could all turn
:21:37. > :21:38.out by people who feel aggrieved by this last-minute intervention. Also
:21:39. > :21:42.tens of millions of votes have already been cast in the early
:21:43. > :21:48.voting, so my guess is that this will not be seen but like it will be
:21:49. > :21:50.seen in retrospect as a mistake but probably not a decisive factor in
:21:51. > :22:00.the election. We don't know if it is e-mails
:22:01. > :22:04.previously examined in the case against Hillary Clinton. This could
:22:05. > :22:08.be end up being damaging, but ultimately not leading to anything.
:22:09. > :22:14.Yes, as you point out we don't know if they are new, to or from Hillary
:22:15. > :22:17.Clinton. I think the political world guess is that since tens of
:22:18. > :22:23.thousands of these things have already been through the mill, both
:22:24. > :22:29.with the FBI and through the wick I can leak Leaks it would be
:22:30. > :22:34.surprising if there was something new only on Anthony Weiner's
:22:35. > :22:37.computer. The odds are it will not have the additional e-mail. The
:22:38. > :22:41.problem is no-one is going to know before election day or know for
:22:42. > :22:41.sure. Thank you so much for joining us.
:22:42. > :22:55.My pleasure. Thank you. And with me this evening to talk
:22:56. > :22:58.about some of the day's news is the law lecturer and columnist
:22:59. > :23:05.Andrew Tickell and from Oxfam Do you think the fixed rooms are a
:23:06. > :23:09.good idea? I think harm reduction in terms of drugs is the strategy to do
:23:10. > :23:15.this. From a legal point of view it is curious that misuse of drugs is a
:23:16. > :23:20.matter. Holyrood does not have much policy autonomy here. It is likely
:23:21. > :23:24.Theresa May's Government would pursue this kind of thing. It seems
:23:25. > :23:28.to me very pragmatic, practical. We don't live in the best of all
:23:29. > :23:33.possible worlds and trying to reduce all the social harms from drugs
:23:34. > :23:36.seems to be sensible and courageous. People often criticising Scottish
:23:37. > :23:40.public authorities for not being as courageous as they can be. That
:23:41. > :23:44.strikes me as nothing but courageous. Legal and political
:23:45. > :23:47.hurdles aside, should it be something that is tried out, at
:23:48. > :23:53.least? Absolutely. I think we need to try everything. We need to admit
:23:54. > :23:59.that our country does have a very desperate drug problem. What we need
:24:00. > :24:04.to do is offer people a safe, clean space to inject but where they will
:24:05. > :24:09.come into contact with social workers who will hopefully set them
:24:10. > :24:12.on the road of-to-recovery T word "fix" is key there. It is not just a
:24:13. > :24:17.hit room to get their hit, it is about fixing people. That is
:24:18. > :24:21.fantastic. Do you think location can be a problem though? Is this
:24:22. > :24:25.something people would want to live or work besides? These will be in
:24:26. > :24:29.places where we have social problems in terms of drugs. So it is not
:24:30. > :24:32.places, we will not install these in places where the feelings of the
:24:33. > :24:37.problems you have identified will not be felt by these kind of
:24:38. > :24:41.communities. You can understand the not in my back yard feeling. If what
:24:42. > :24:45.is in your back yard is needles already, then why not welcome
:24:46. > :24:50.somewhere you can you address these problems and take it off the streets
:24:51. > :24:55.into areas where help is available. It does not address rural drug
:24:56. > :25:00.problems which are a big problem in Scotland? And it does not address
:25:01. > :25:04.root causes. It is a welcome sticking plaster. Until we really
:25:05. > :25:11.look to why people are turning to drugs and alcohol to maybe put a
:25:12. > :25:18.sock over their problems, why we look at people experiences chaotic
:25:19. > :25:22.lives. There have been a spate of reports looking at increasing
:25:23. > :25:25.loneliness, increasing work, we need to ask the questions, whoa is the
:25:26. > :25:28.nature of our economy doing to people that is forcing them to turn
:25:29. > :25:33.to drugs? Until we really have a long, hard look at the structure of
:25:34. > :25:38.the economy, then these will be sticking plasters, albeit very
:25:39. > :25:41.welcome ones. Another big story of the day was campaigners condemned
:25:42. > :25:47.the Home Secretary's decision to rule out a public inquiry into the
:25:48. > :25:54.so-called battle in 1984. Thousands of miners and police clashed at the
:25:55. > :25:58.site during the miners' strike. We say the decision is deeply
:25:59. > :26:05.disappointing and absolutely unacceptable. It is nearly 32 years
:26:06. > :26:12.since 95 miners were arrested. Now, some of those miners are dead.
:26:13. > :26:17.And the surviving ones face the prospect of more time, more delay
:26:18. > :26:23.before we get truth and justice. This is a difficult one, isn't it?
:26:24. > :26:27.There were no deaths or wrongful convictions but those who have
:26:28. > :26:30.campaigned for an inquiry say a great deal of other damage was done.
:26:31. > :26:35.People were seriously injured for a start. People spent time in prison
:26:36. > :26:38.on remand as well. So, there is a lot of emotion still surrounding
:26:39. > :26:43.this and it has not been addressed today? I was not living in the
:26:44. > :26:47.country at the time. I am still incredibly connous of how really
:26:48. > :26:53.this defines that part of our history. It is all through music and
:26:54. > :26:58.writing. It is very emblem mattic of the time. It has etched itself on to
:26:59. > :27:02.public consciousness. Hearing today her saying that, we have learnt all
:27:03. > :27:07.the lessons, where there is little to learn, is very worrying because
:27:08. > :27:13.we are in a situation where there are instances of police brutality.
:27:14. > :27:17.We also have had some troubling incidents in the recent times of
:27:18. > :27:21.police infiltration of campaign groups. So I think to say there are
:27:22. > :27:26.not lessons still to be learnt is highly problematic. Andrew, how much
:27:27. > :27:32.was the involvement of South Yorkshire Police in this case, after
:27:33. > :27:37.the great criticism it faced from Hillsborough a big issue? Lessons
:27:38. > :27:43.taken. Hillsborough has been on the lips of many people. Nobody died in
:27:44. > :27:49.terms of the clashes involving this particular mine. Questions go
:27:50. > :27:57.unanswered. Hillsborough involved football fans. Under Thatcher they
:27:58. > :28:02.were a... What was this, this was Margaret Thatcher's political war,
:28:03. > :28:08.directing the police politically. If that is not historically important,
:28:09. > :28:13.even more in some senses than Hillsborough then I am not sure what
:28:14. > :28:16.is. I can understand people saying justice delayed is justice denied
:28:17. > :28:23.and transparency is always the best sunshine. I tend to hold to that
:28:24. > :28:27.view. We heard from the Business Secretary talking about the
:28:28. > :28:30.sensitivity of the information in Nissan and what has gone on. What do
:28:31. > :28:37.you make of this? There are things to be concerned about. Let's look at
:28:38. > :28:42.what bodes well. One of the factors outlined was the exploration of
:28:43. > :28:47.ultra low carbon vehicles. If this is a precedent of Government getting
:28:48. > :28:50.on the front foot and starting to embrace a shift to a low-carbon
:28:51. > :28:54.industry and supporting the industries we need in the 21st
:28:55. > :28:58.century, then that is fantastic. There are all sorts of layers of
:28:59. > :29:02.Government involvement in supporting businesses. It is knowing how much
:29:03. > :29:05.we should know about that. The SNP want to make a Freedom of
:29:06. > :29:11.Information request about this. Your positivity. That was an elegant
:29:12. > :29:16.pivot. But they want to know what is behind the deals. What is in the
:29:17. > :29:19.letter Nissan have received. Theory ashurntss about what will happen if
:29:20. > :29:26.there is Brexit and tariffs are imposed. The suspicion must be they
:29:27. > :29:35.have received reassurances that we will foot the bill. That is
:29:36. > :29:40.I'm back again tomorrow night, usual time.