:00:19. > :00:20.In the rare event of a miscarriage of justice, are exonerees
:00:21. > :00:31.Hello and welcome to Scotland 2016.
:00:32. > :00:35.Lawyers, academics and campaigners have met in Glasgow to discuss
:00:36. > :00:39.the plight of those jailed for crimes they didn't commit.
:00:40. > :00:42.Iraqi forces trying to drive IS out of Mosul have reached the outskirts
:00:43. > :00:50.And the row with Fifa, who say footballers can't wear poppy
:00:51. > :01:03.armbands when Scotland and England play on Armistice Day.
:01:04. > :01:10.We know from the Shawshank Redemption everyone in prison says
:01:11. > :01:13.they are innocent. But some of them really are. A conference has been
:01:14. > :01:19.hearing from some high-profile victims of the criminal justice
:01:20. > :01:22.system. People who serve years and sometimes decades behind bars for
:01:23. > :01:27.crimes they had not committed. Huw Williams reports.
:01:28. > :01:38.On November 1974 -- November 24, 1974 182 people were injured when
:01:39. > :01:45.these bombs went off. Paddy Hill was among those arrested. If they have
:01:46. > :01:49.said from the beginning, we know you didn't do the bombings. We've got
:01:50. > :01:53.you and that's good enough for us. Then he pointed at the ceiling and
:01:54. > :01:56.said, we didn't pick you but you have been selected by people at the
:01:57. > :02:00.highest level of government and they have given us our orders. He said
:02:01. > :02:06.the police used brutality and torture on them. The next thing, the
:02:07. > :02:12.guy with a shot gun would be in, screaming all sorts of abuse at you
:02:13. > :02:21.about your wife, your kids etc etc. They would say, sit in that corner,
:02:22. > :02:24.I don't want to see your face, you Irish bastard, and all of this. Then
:02:25. > :02:28.they would go to the next one and the next one, the five us, and it
:02:29. > :02:33.would be deadly silent for the next minute or so. Then the one with a
:02:34. > :02:37.handgun would come round. Robert Brown served 25 years for the murder
:02:38. > :02:41.of Annie Walsh which he denied until his conviction was overturned in
:02:42. > :02:46.2002. There was no evidence to connect me to the crimes are wider
:02:47. > :02:50.bit possessed in arrestingly? Since the release of the Guildford four in
:02:51. > :02:54.1991 there have been 6000 cases released from the Court of Appeal,
:02:55. > :03:02.from traffic to murder offences, so there are obviously anomalies in the
:03:03. > :03:05.system, and it is a system that is badly flawed. He says the criminal
:03:06. > :03:10.justice system closes ranks if mistakes come to light. It is not
:03:11. > :03:14.about the truth. Truth and justice are not synonymous in a court of
:03:15. > :03:17.law. It is about winning and the prosecution will do anything to win
:03:18. > :03:24.and if that means heading evidence that could clear a defendant they
:03:25. > :03:28.have no qualms about doing so, Huw. This was discussed today at a
:03:29. > :03:31.conference in the University of Strathclyde, home to a group that
:03:32. > :03:35.investigate potential miscarriages of justice under half of people who
:03:36. > :03:41.have exhausted all normal appeals. As students we can do work that a
:03:42. > :03:48.criminal solicitor would not... Would not be eligible for legal aid
:03:49. > :03:51.for. We can go out to look for fresh information. We collaborate with
:03:52. > :03:54.different departments inside the university. The forensics department
:03:55. > :04:00.and the investigative journalism department. These are things they
:04:01. > :04:07.would not be able to get for free and we have been in the past.
:04:08. > :04:12.Organisation works... We do not have the finance to be able to hire in a
:04:13. > :04:14.lawyer and fight the case is ourselves which is what we want to
:04:15. > :04:24.do as an organisation. You have to get a pat on the back to Strathclyde
:04:25. > :04:29.University and others that offer to -- these projects, offering that in
:04:30. > :04:33.their universities, bringing their learning to real-life situations.
:04:34. > :04:37.Jubilant scenes when the Birmingham six's convictions were overturned,
:04:38. > :04:42.but like every victim of a miscarriage of justice, the effects
:04:43. > :04:47.continue. I still look at everything out here in terms of jail. I cannot
:04:48. > :04:51.get out of the habit. The only good thing they did for us is they took
:04:52. > :04:53.us out of the prison, but they did not take the prison out of us.
:04:54. > :04:54.Paddy Hill ending that report by Huw Williams.
:04:55. > :04:57.Joining us now to discuss this more is Dr Rhonda Wheate
:04:58. > :05:09.She is director of the clinical Law programme there. Thank you for
:05:10. > :05:12.coming in. How common are miscarriages of justice and how do
:05:13. > :05:15.they happen? It is very difficult to see how common they are because
:05:16. > :05:20.obviously we do not hear about all of them and do not find out they
:05:21. > :05:24.have happened. There are incentives in the criminal justice system that
:05:25. > :05:27.mean for example if you want to be eligible for parole you need to
:05:28. > :05:31.admit you were guilty. And so you will have instances of people who,
:05:32. > :05:35.having spent a long durations in prison, will plead guilty, or will
:05:36. > :05:39.admit their guilt at that stage, simply to be released. So there are
:05:40. > :05:45.examples of miscarriages of justice that we cannot tell they are
:05:46. > :05:49.officially but we know, particularly through organisations like this,
:05:50. > :05:53.that this is happening. It is very difficult to quantify but we do know
:05:54. > :05:59.that it happens. Is often the case, as we heard in the film, that
:06:00. > :06:01.universities and students, more students, often end up being the
:06:02. > :06:10.ones doing a lot of the groundwork to try to bring these cases to the
:06:11. > :06:13.forefront? -- law students. Yes, there is a tradition in legal
:06:14. > :06:22.schools, the good ones, trying to Google Street -- trying to
:06:23. > :06:26.infiltrate in students that mentality so there is a long history
:06:27. > :06:32.of innocence Project in universities for that reason. Certainly others do
:06:33. > :06:38.work, in organisations such as MOJO, the miscarriages Of Justice
:06:39. > :06:41.Organisation, trying to raise awareness about the problem which is
:06:42. > :06:45.what the conference tonight was trying to do. Obviously we have a
:06:46. > :06:48.criminal justice system that works extremely well the vast majority of
:06:49. > :06:59.the time and it is a human process, Abbey -- about judgment as well, so
:07:00. > :07:02.it is hard to see how something could be absolutely perfect? Yes, a
:07:03. > :07:05.human process and there will be human responses to various steps
:07:06. > :07:10.along the way but that is not to see it could not be better. For
:07:11. > :07:15.instance, in the forensics side of what happens in a criminal trial
:07:16. > :07:18.which is what I have looked at and how juries understand forensics
:07:19. > :07:22.science, for example, the forensic scientists are humans and will have
:07:23. > :07:25.natural biases and inclinations and things that are not necessarily
:07:26. > :07:31.strictly scientific and the information they give in court is
:07:32. > :07:36.interpreted by tutors who are not scientific experts, bringing all
:07:37. > :07:39.their humanity into how they make decisions -- interpreted by jurors.
:07:40. > :07:42.So there are many places in the criminal justice system where things
:07:43. > :07:46.can go badly wrong. We have changed our attitude a lot towards legality
:07:47. > :07:53.I think due to TV programmes and even films and even talking about
:07:54. > :07:58.Making A Murderer, the net Skelfers Netflix series. Does it surprise you
:07:59. > :08:04.they can attract huge audiences of people who are intrigued by the
:08:05. > :08:09.stories? -- the Netflix series. It doesn't surprise me because many of
:08:10. > :08:12.us have a feeling that if I have done nothing wrong and I have
:08:13. > :08:18.nothing to fear, if I am innocent all come out in the wash. Is it
:08:19. > :08:22.helpful? Yes, I do think it is helpful, these sorts of programmes,
:08:23. > :08:25.particularly Making A Murderer in raising awareness that being
:08:26. > :08:30.innocent is not necessarily enough. It is a big system and you can get
:08:31. > :08:41.lost along the way and end up convicted. Of course it often does
:08:42. > :08:43.not end at exoneration. You looked at the idea today of support. What
:08:44. > :08:46.happens to people who are exonerated? Is easy to go on and
:08:47. > :08:48.live a normal life? No. There are older obvious difficulties with not
:08:49. > :08:52.having any work experience, having lost years of relationships with
:08:53. > :08:56.your family, particularly children. We found that many of the exonerees
:08:57. > :08:59.spoke to very poignantly about having lost all contact with their
:09:00. > :09:03.children and not being able to come to grips with that when they leave
:09:04. > :09:09.prison. So it is more than having a box ticked to say, books, you were
:09:10. > :09:16.wrongly convicted, no carry on with your life -- to say, oops. No smoke
:09:17. > :09:20.without fire, having to put up with that kid of attitude. Do these
:09:21. > :09:27.people get further support? Organisations such as MOJO either
:09:28. > :09:31.specifically to provide resources and support but they are under
:09:32. > :09:35.difficult circumstances themselves in terms of resources that it is not
:09:36. > :09:38.really ever enough. They do their best to cope with the volume of
:09:39. > :09:41.cases coming through but they are inundated with letters from
:09:42. > :09:45.prisoners and people seeking their help from both sides of the divide.
:09:46. > :09:49.Those who are still convicted and those who have been exonerated.
:09:50. > :09:54.Thank you so much for coming in, Doctor Rhonda Wheate.
:09:55. > :09:56.16 days after beginning their assault, Iraqi forces have
:09:57. > :09:58.for the first time entered the outskirts of Mosul
:09:59. > :10:01.since Islamic State militants captured it more than two years ago.
:10:02. > :10:04.Militant fighters have put up stiff resistance but the battle for Mosul
:10:05. > :10:07.The fight against IS brings together disparate, competing forces
:10:08. > :10:16.And there are growing concerns for one million people thought to be
:10:17. > :10:22.Earlier I spoke to Haissam Minkara, deputy country director
:10:23. > :10:24.He describes what life is like for civilians
:10:25. > :10:37.Mosul city has been under the Isis occupation, or under the control of
:10:38. > :10:44.Isis, for the pasts years. Reports of the year from people - we don't
:10:45. > :10:49.have first hand information. But reportedly people fleeing Mosul are
:10:50. > :10:55.speaking about... -- reports that we hear from people. They are speaking
:10:56. > :10:58.problems with medicine and supplies. You imagine the infrastructure has
:10:59. > :11:04.also been badly damaged? Do you not people can access health care and
:11:05. > :11:07.education? The fighting reported yesterday is raising our concerns
:11:08. > :11:15.about serious damage to the infrastructure and about potential
:11:16. > :11:22.casualties among civilians. They are calling all of the combating parties
:11:23. > :11:28.to make sure they do not use heavy ammunition or that they do not
:11:29. > :11:35.bombard the heavily populated and built-up areas to make sure that
:11:36. > :11:39.minimal damage is happening to the infrastructure that is meant to
:11:40. > :11:43.serve the civilians there. And do you expect that things like bombs
:11:44. > :11:49.will have been left behind? Should IS fighters flee? Like any other
:11:50. > :11:55.combat field, there are serious fears of unexploded mines and bombs
:11:56. > :12:00.that have been left behind and that is a serious risk, that civilians
:12:01. > :12:08.could be exposed to. We call on all of the combating parties, on the
:12:09. > :12:11.coalition and on the Iraqi forces, to communicate clearly to civilians
:12:12. > :12:16.in Mosul and in areas that are taken over about the risk they might be
:12:17. > :12:20.exposed to, and not to call civilians to go back unless the
:12:21. > :12:29.areas are cleared from these unexploded materials and IUDs. How
:12:30. > :12:36.have you been helping people leaving Mosul? How strong is their desire to
:12:37. > :12:38.return? Oxfam and other humanitarian agencies have been increasing their
:12:39. > :12:43.preparedness to respond to the people in need around Mosul. People
:12:44. > :12:48.have been responding for the past few weeks. In the Mosul corridor,
:12:49. > :12:55.supporting the people who fled the areas around Mosul city. We have
:12:56. > :13:06.been providing clean water, we have been providing NFIs, non-food items,
:13:07. > :13:14.bedding, blankets, kitchen supplies, for people who fled. We are now
:13:15. > :13:19.focusing on the areas where the majority of internally displaced
:13:20. > :13:29.people have settled. We are expecting more people to come. The
:13:30. > :13:33.scale of the crisis is huge. Their expectations, we are talking about
:13:34. > :13:39.more than 200,000 people who might be fleeing Mosul in the next few
:13:40. > :13:44.weeks. If these expectations have been realised, the scale of the
:13:45. > :13:51.response at the moment is not up to that level. Oxfam and all of the
:13:52. > :13:56.other agencies are in need of funding to be able to respond to the
:13:57. > :14:02.scale of the need. Haissam Minkara, thank you so much for joining us.
:14:03. > :14:05.Well, joining me now from London is David Loyn.
:14:06. > :14:09.After a 37-year career as a BBC foreign correspondent,
:14:10. > :14:11.he's now a senior visiting research fellow at King's College London's
:14:12. > :14:30.A very good evening to you. Why are IS putting up such a strong
:14:31. > :14:38.resistance in Mosul as opposed to other places? This is where their
:14:39. > :14:47.caliphate began. This is where they came up two years ago launching this
:14:48. > :14:54.way of fighting Jihad on behalf of world is lamb, they said. It was a
:14:55. > :14:59.huge call to people not just in Iraq and Syria but to outside. It is the
:15:00. > :15:03.place where they launched their moves into neighbouring Syria and
:15:04. > :15:09.taking vast quantities of the countryside around. Even though
:15:10. > :15:17.they've lost other places, they will fight for muscle. So to take it back
:15:18. > :15:23.would be a huge gain for the Iraqi forces. Will this be supported by
:15:24. > :15:28.air strikes or will it be a ground operation? We can expect that
:15:29. > :15:32.thereafter special forces on the ground and aerial spotters working
:15:33. > :15:38.alongside Iraqi special forces which we understand are now outside the
:15:39. > :15:51.city itself. They will be calling in occasional ground strikes. We saw in
:15:52. > :15:59.northern Syria, it took three months for Kabani to fall. Don't expect
:16:00. > :16:05.Mosul to fall quickly. A couple of years ago IS slaughtered thousands
:16:06. > :16:10.of Iraqi soldiers as they crumbled but they are now much better trained
:16:11. > :16:13.and resourced and have UK and US special forces support on the ground
:16:14. > :16:21.and drone and air strikes as well when they need to call them in from
:16:22. > :16:30.the US side. Those Iraqi forces are supported by Kurdish fighters, the
:16:31. > :16:35.Peshmerga, SUNY nationals, how natural a coalition is this and how
:16:36. > :16:41.long might it last afterwards? Mosul will fall but it might take two or
:16:42. > :16:45.three months and there will be significant damage to the
:16:46. > :16:48.infrastructure of the town with civilian casualties, hundreds of
:16:49. > :16:55.thousands of people fleeing their homes if they can get away. IS will
:16:56. > :16:58.try and hold hostages as they try to control and fight for every inch of
:16:59. > :17:05.the ground with suicide bombers remaining behind. There is then the
:17:06. > :17:09.big strategic question as to what happens next. There is no natural
:17:10. > :17:15.alliance between the Kurds from the north and the Iraqi forces coming
:17:16. > :17:21.from the south. In the past, they have been opposed to each other. For
:17:22. > :17:25.the Kurds, this is a move towards stabilising their position in the
:17:26. > :17:29.north. Kurdish northern Iraq is the most stable part of the country.
:17:30. > :17:39.Effectively ceding from the rest of the country in 2013. There has to
:17:40. > :17:43.not been as much violence in that part of the country and they will be
:17:44. > :17:48.looking to stabilise control in Mosul even though it is beyond their
:17:49. > :17:52.frontier of northern Iraqi Kurdistan. They will be trying to do
:17:53. > :18:09.what they had done incur cook before. -- Kirkuk. Even once the IS
:18:10. > :18:17.forces are pushed out, which they will be no doubt in the next few
:18:18. > :18:19.months, there is a real concerned as to whether it can be stable in the
:18:20. > :18:23.future. Thank you. Fifa has turned down
:18:24. > :18:26.a request from the English and Scottish Football Associations
:18:27. > :18:28.to allow their players to wear a poppy on their shirt or
:18:29. > :18:31.on an armband during their World Cup qualifier match on
:18:32. > :18:34.Armistice Day next week. The world governing body's rules
:18:35. > :18:38.forbid what it calls "political, religious or commercial
:18:39. > :18:40.messages" on team strips. But many believe none of those
:18:41. > :18:42.descriptions apply to the poppy. The SNP's Stewart McDonald,
:18:43. > :18:45.whose Glasgow constituency is home to Hampden Stadium,
:18:46. > :18:47.has written to the Scottish FA urging them to call on Fifa
:18:48. > :18:59.to overturn the ban. Very good evening to you. Why, in
:19:00. > :19:07.your view our Poppy is not political? They just aren't. Many
:19:08. > :19:14.people have tried to use it for political gains but most people up
:19:15. > :19:24.for that. The Poppy itself is a symbol of remembrance. It is a time
:19:25. > :19:28.of year where we remember, in many cases, people from our own family
:19:29. > :19:33.who have been touched by the two world wars. Certainly, that is why I
:19:34. > :19:39.choose to wear the Poppy. It is nothing to do with politics. Where
:19:40. > :19:43.people have tried to do it for political purposes, most decent
:19:44. > :19:49.people have thrown them a rubber ear on that. It is about charity to
:19:50. > :19:55.support veterans who have served our country in the Armed Forces. A great
:19:56. > :20:00.many people share that view but some historians argued it was political
:20:01. > :20:06.from the outset. The well-known veteran Harry Leslie Smith hasn't
:20:07. > :20:11.won a Poppy since 2013. He believes that the spirit of his generation
:20:12. > :20:16.has been hijacked by politics. They are contentious to a degree, do you
:20:17. > :20:23.accept that? Of course they are to a degree but the key choice is --
:20:24. > :20:30.point is choice. People should be free to make the choice of where --
:20:31. > :20:38.whether they wear a coloured Poppy all whether they wear a Poppy at
:20:39. > :20:41.all. Many people have various different reasons for choosing
:20:42. > :20:49.whether or not to wear one. Harry Leslie Smith is to be respected for
:20:50. > :20:54.his point of view. Fifa have no business in trying to stop this
:20:55. > :21:00.happening. If a player wants to wear one, he should be able to do so and
:21:01. > :21:05.if not, they should be free to do so without being hounded as a result of
:21:06. > :21:11.that. The key here is choice. Most reasonable people would back up the
:21:12. > :21:15.idea that it should be down to individuals, or clubs themselves, as
:21:16. > :21:19.happens in Scotland already, if they want to ever Poppy, they should be
:21:20. > :21:25.allowed to do so. If not, they should equally be allowed to do so
:21:26. > :21:32.and respected. Both sides are hopeful that a pragmatic solution
:21:33. > :21:42.can be made and meetings are taking place this week to discuss. Are you
:21:43. > :21:51.happy that there will be a way of finding an agreement? This will
:21:52. > :21:55.happen on Armistice Day and England against Scotland was the first
:21:56. > :22:04.codified international game of football. It happened in Scotland.
:22:05. > :22:06.We all know about the German and British soldiers putting down their
:22:07. > :22:12.weapons to play football on the field. The guys playing football
:22:13. > :22:16.next week will be of similar age to those soldiers. If they choose to
:22:17. > :22:19.wear the Poppy, they should be allowed to do so. What a beautiful
:22:20. > :22:22.way for the beautiful game of football to remember them. Thank you
:22:23. > :22:26.for joining us. Thank you. Here with me now to discuss
:22:27. > :22:29.some of today's stories are the Herald's Scottish political
:22:30. > :22:31.editor Tom Gordon, and Ann Landels, who's director of the homeless
:22:32. > :22:43.charity Crisis Skylight Edinburgh. Good evening to you both. Let's
:22:44. > :22:50.start off by talking about poppies. They are contentious. Do you think
:22:51. > :22:53.Fifa have a point to make? They are not universally popular but they are
:22:54. > :22:57.overwhelmingly respected in the UK where the game is going to be
:22:58. > :23:02.played. Some people find them militaristic but it is a small
:23:03. > :23:07.minority of people. Images and symbols which are inflammatory are
:23:08. > :23:13.different from what the copy will be on Armistice Day. If you had both
:23:14. > :23:17.sides are wearing it in unity, both sets of fans, it's not as though it
:23:18. > :23:22.is one set of fans projecting an image to antagonise the other side.
:23:23. > :23:28.It is something that brings everyone together. I think Fifa have got it
:23:29. > :23:30.badly wrong. Do you agree that it is different from Palestinian flags
:23:31. > :23:37.being displayed at a football game recently? I would agree with what
:23:38. > :23:42.has been said already. People should have the right to choose whether or
:23:43. > :23:48.not they wear it. It's so symbolic. You have to remember that there are
:23:49. > :23:54.things like the McRae 's battalion, the Hart players that went to the
:23:55. > :23:58.First World War. Football has that link with sacrifice and if people
:23:59. > :24:02.want to wear it, the fact that it is too British teams and the Poppy is a
:24:03. > :24:09.British symbol, I think it should be allowed. Do you think Fifa in terms
:24:10. > :24:12.of PR at the moment are being viewed differently and trying to get away
:24:13. > :24:16.from some of the negativity surrounding them that this is
:24:17. > :24:22.something they might end up seeing sense on? They do need to get away
:24:23. > :24:30.from negativity. With all of their problems about corruption, to pick a
:24:31. > :24:36.fight about this is a completely misplaced sense of priority. They
:24:37. > :24:41.should just let it roll. 20,000 people in Scotland will be affected
:24:42. > :24:45.by the upcoming benefits cap, according to the chartered Institute
:24:46. > :24:53.of Housing. Where'd you think public opinion stands on this? These
:24:54. > :24:57.benefit changes affect more and more people and you will see public
:24:58. > :25:04.opinion engaged and possibly an arranged by this. When the benefit
:25:05. > :25:09.cap came in at ?26,000 it affected perhaps 900 families in Scotland. It
:25:10. > :25:17.could be 7-11,000 now by some estimates. It is becoming much more
:25:18. > :25:23.widespread. Big families in London, it was before, now you are talking
:25:24. > :25:28.about average families that will be short of rent. It is going to affect
:25:29. > :25:31.a lot of people. People will be affected themselves or know of
:25:32. > :25:39.people and word will get out that it is a bad thing. This is something
:25:40. > :25:43.that you will know a lot about. The benefits included are things like
:25:44. > :25:46.child benefit which a huge number of people get as of right and don't
:25:47. > :25:50.have it counted against their income in this way. It would be good if the
:25:51. > :25:58.Scottish Government could look at ways of mitigating that, either by,
:25:59. > :26:00.in the same way as discretionary housing payments with the bedroom
:26:01. > :26:06.tax, or looking at ways of supporting people into work because
:26:07. > :26:09.that will take people out of this. The work programme is going to be
:26:10. > :26:13.devolved to the Scottish Government so it would be possible to look at
:26:14. > :26:17.ways of maybe bridging the cost and actually having measures that would
:26:18. > :26:21.help people into work. At the end of the day, most people want to work
:26:22. > :26:27.and support their families and if we can support them to do that it is a
:26:28. > :26:31.good thing. This is a thing that the Scottish Government have expressed a
:26:32. > :26:37.will to do. They have already mitigated in respect of the bedroom
:26:38. > :26:40.tax. What could they do? There is a new study out tomorrow from
:26:41. > :26:45.Sheffield Hallam University and it is not that straightforward. We will
:26:46. > :26:49.get more benefit powers transferred to Holyrood in the next few years
:26:50. > :26:54.but often the amount of money transferred is hacked back as we
:26:55. > :26:57.speak and so it will be quite a small pot that is inherited. It is
:26:58. > :27:02.then down to the Scottish Government to make up the money and cash is
:27:03. > :27:08.tight already. It is not an easy choice to make. Looking ahead to
:27:09. > :27:13.tomorrow. The offensive behaviour in football act. MSP 's want to
:27:14. > :27:17.challenge government laws regarding sectarian behaviour at football. You
:27:18. > :27:23.think this is something that was always going to reach this point
:27:24. > :27:29.given the amount of opposition. It was a rare instance of where all the
:27:30. > :27:35.parties agreed. It is not often you see the Green Party and the Tories
:27:36. > :27:39.aligned on anything. Here they were. They are going to move towards
:27:40. > :27:42.repeal of this. Tomorrow is a largely symbolic boat but it will
:27:43. > :27:49.put the wind up the government -- vote. It shows that the parties can
:27:50. > :27:56.bring concerted pressure to bear on the government at times. It is a
:27:57. > :28:02.difficult law to enforce. Unenforceable laws are often seen as
:28:03. > :28:10.bad laws. We need to look at the football clubs doing more about
:28:11. > :28:13.their fans. We've had examples of successful campaigns, for example
:28:14. > :28:17.against racism and they show a way of working. If the law is not
:28:18. > :28:24.enforceable, it becomes nonsense at the end of the day. Do you think at
:28:25. > :28:30.the outset it was right that politicians should try to take the
:28:31. > :28:36.lead on this? There was a sense at the time that there had been a whole
:28:37. > :28:39.spate of aggressive incidents in 2011 and a feeling that something
:28:40. > :28:47.had to be done. Always a dangerous atmosphere that politicians have to
:28:48. > :28:50.take action in. I think they should have placed themselves and taking it
:28:51. > :28:55.more slowly because it seems to have come with problems. The time is
:28:56. > :28:59.right for reform, not necessarily repeal, because there are useful
:29:00. > :29:04.elements, especially on the threatening communication side of
:29:05. > :29:07.it. But something has to change. Do you think 230 convictions is enough
:29:08. > :29:13.to justify that it has done something? It has done something but
:29:14. > :29:17.it is not really addressing the root of the problem that is what we need
:29:18. > :29:21.to look at. It is creating a different kind of culture so it
:29:22. > :29:28.becomes an acceptable. Not something that you to see. An interesting
:29:29. > :29:31.debate tomorrow? It will be an interesting precedent to set up
:29:32. > :29:35.Parliament. It won't open the floodgates because there are not
:29:36. > :29:38.many areas of overlap between the parties but it will be one to watch.
:29:39. > :29:40.Thanks for coming. Shelly will be here tomorrow
:29:41. > :29:47.night at the usual time. So do please join her then
:29:48. > :30:27.- bye bye. The Mexican peso has been slipxing
:30:28. > :30:32.against the US dollar. The peso goes down when Donald
:30:33. > :30:44.Trump's chances go up. With a week to go, the markets
:30:45. > :30:48.are telling us he's breathing down