28/11/2016

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:00:00. > :00:00.Can Nicola Sturgeon's visit to Ireland do anything to protect

:00:00. > :00:30.The First Minister has begun a two day visit to Dublin,

:00:31. > :00:35.hoping to strengthen ties following the Brexit vote.

:00:36. > :00:38.As allegations of child sex abuse in football emerge, we hear from one

:00:39. > :00:44.And will the Scottish Parliament back making it easier for gay

:00:45. > :00:55.All of Scotland's First Ministers have made great play

:00:56. > :01:01.In fact, it wasn't that long ago that Alex Salmond talked

:01:02. > :01:10.about us being together in an arc of prosperity.

:01:11. > :01:18.And they've changed yet again as a result of Brexit.

:01:19. > :01:21.And that means Nicola Sturgeon's visit to Dublin this week has taken

:01:22. > :01:25.The First Minister's keen to find friends in Europe who might help

:01:26. > :01:26.maintain Scotland's position in the EU.

:01:27. > :01:28.But with the Irish Government bound by diplomatic protocol,

:01:29. > :01:32.We'll discuss in a moment, but first our political

:01:33. > :01:40.correspondent Glenn Campbell has sent this from Dublin.

:01:41. > :01:49.Question and - off what does Nicola Sturgeon have in common with John F

:01:50. > :01:53.Kennedy, Nelson Mandela and ill Clinton? The answer- they have all

:01:54. > :02:00.been invited to speak in the Irish parliament. -- Bill Clinton. While

:02:01. > :02:02.Bill Clinton and the other presidents address both houses of

:02:03. > :02:07.parliament the First Minister will speak to the upper House, the

:02:08. > :02:11.Senate, but the Prime Minister or Taoiseach at the time of President

:02:12. > :02:15.Clinton's as it says that is still a big deal. It will be an historic

:02:16. > :02:18.occasion because Ireland and Scotland have an intimate

:02:19. > :02:23.relationship going back over 1000 years. I think it is good that

:02:24. > :02:28.somebody representing Scotland will now speak for Scotland and Ireland.

:02:29. > :02:31.Since the EU referendum Nicola Sturgeon and the Irish Prime

:02:32. > :02:36.Minister Enda Kenny have found common cause in trying to ensure

:02:37. > :02:41.Brexit does not mean the UK leaving the European single market. Visiting

:02:42. > :02:47.Scottish and southern energy's Dublin offices the First Minister

:02:48. > :02:51.said that would minimise economic damage. The single market is a

:02:52. > :02:55.market of 500 million people and they want to see Scotland stay

:02:56. > :03:00.within that, not instead of free trade across the UK, but in addition

:03:01. > :03:04.to that, because it is good for investment, jobs, living standards.

:03:05. > :03:10.Here in Ireland that number one Brexit concern is the border. Under

:03:11. > :03:14.the Peace Process you hardly notice crossing from the Republic into

:03:15. > :03:18.Northern Ireland except that the road markings change colour. But if

:03:19. > :03:23.the UK is leaving the European Union this year is that once again there

:03:24. > :03:29.will have to be checks at this crossing point.

:03:30. > :03:33.Both Irish and UK leaders have said they want to avoid Border Controls

:03:34. > :03:39.in Ireland but some feel the best lead to achieve that would be for

:03:40. > :03:43.Brexit to be cancelled. Having a second look at a major decision of

:03:44. > :03:47.this kind is not the wrong thing to do. It is often the right thing to

:03:48. > :03:52.do. We know in our own ways that sometimes we have to look again. But

:03:53. > :03:56.Brexit really does mean Brexit the First Minister reckons Scotland will

:03:57. > :03:59.be better able to deal with it if we work hand in hand with Ireland.

:04:00. > :04:13.Well let's discuss what support Scotland might receive from Ireland

:04:14. > :04:19.there might inform some of the options our own

:04:20. > :04:22.In Brussels is Suzanne Lynch, who's European correspondent

:04:23. > :04:24.for the Irish Times and in our Belfast studio

:04:25. > :04:28.is the writer and broadcaster Dr Malachi O'Doherty

:04:29. > :04:34.Can be Irish have sympathy with Nicola Sturgeon Re: Brexit or are

:04:35. > :04:39.reading too much into this? It is a small deal. It is not a very big

:04:40. > :04:44.one. He is to politicians like Tony Blair, going back to John F Kennedy,

:04:45. > :04:51.address both houses together. That is where the real honour lies. The

:04:52. > :04:54.Senate is not a very important body. It came very close to being

:04:55. > :05:00.abolished in the last few years. It is not a big thing. I noticed in the

:05:01. > :05:05.news from Dublin tonight that they only gave about ten seconds to the

:05:06. > :05:09.coverage of the visit. And they went from that to a story about the

:05:10. > :05:14.increased uptake in demand for Irish passports. It is not at the moment

:05:15. > :05:19.being seen as a very big deal. Maybe tomorrow after she has made her

:05:20. > :05:23.speech, but she made a speech tonight with Charlie Flanagan the

:05:24. > :05:27.Foreign Minister, and she did make some indications of what her real

:05:28. > :05:32.interest is. And real interest is to find what she calls differential

:05:33. > :05:38.options. That is ways in which Scotland might maintain a sense of

:05:39. > :05:41.being organically involved with the European Union after Brexit. And she

:05:42. > :05:45.has gone to the right place to talk to people who are thinking that way

:05:46. > :05:52.because they are dealing with the problem of Northern Ireland.

:05:53. > :05:56.Northern Ireland. The Irish Government needs to maintain an

:05:57. > :06:01.organic relationship with Northern Ireland and whatever model emerges

:06:02. > :06:07.then Nicola Sturgeon and Scotland will be interested in that.

:06:08. > :06:11.Ireland and the UK have always seen themselves as close partners in the

:06:12. > :06:16.EU, the share a lot of common interests. Do you think the Irish

:06:17. > :06:21.Government might welcome Scotland as a new EU partner instead and

:06:22. > :06:23.therefore it might lend its support to continued membership if for

:06:24. > :06:28.example Scotland were to go independence? This is one of the

:06:29. > :06:33.things. But with great enthusiasm in the weeks after the referendum vote.

:06:34. > :06:39.We can be quite humorous about this because for instance raft in Ireland

:06:40. > :06:46.wanted to realign itself with Scotland. And stay in the European

:06:47. > :06:49.Union. And people were making scenarios whereby Scotland and the

:06:50. > :06:54.Irish Republic would form a new union. These are fantastical notions

:06:55. > :06:57.but practically any idea you can come up with that preserves the link

:06:58. > :07:01.between Northern Ireland and southern Ireland, and similarly

:07:02. > :07:10.between Scotland and the rest of the European Union, any notion you come

:07:11. > :07:14.up with debates the UK. But Scotland was an independent nation in the EU

:07:15. > :07:20.that would be another vote at the heart of Europe alongside Ireland.

:07:21. > :07:23.But Scotland with independent inside you that be would see a united

:07:24. > :07:26.Ireland. And I think people disagree with the emphatically on that

:07:27. > :07:29.because they do not see at with particular clarity but I think the

:07:30. > :07:37.idea of Northern Ireland being lumbered inside a small UK led by

:07:38. > :07:41.English Tories, I think Northern nationalists would recoil from that

:07:42. > :07:47.quite sharply. I think if Scotland's goes then the next domino after that

:07:48. > :07:51.is Northern Ireland. We are looking seriously at a united Ireland. I

:07:52. > :07:54.think I am right in saying that you think Nicola Sturgeon should be

:07:55. > :07:57.speaking as much to political leaders in Northern Ireland as

:07:58. > :08:02.southern Ireland. The situation there is more complex. And southern

:08:03. > :08:07.Ireland at as many people who are pro-EU, certainly the politicians

:08:08. > :08:10.anyway, in Northern Ireland, it is rather different, you have got the

:08:11. > :08:16.First Minister Arlene Foster who voted for Brexit, and the Deputy

:08:17. > :08:20.First Minister Martin McGuinness voted to remain. That makes it more

:08:21. > :08:23.difficult or Nicola Sturgeon in terms of finding friends in Northern

:08:24. > :08:29.Ireland. And yet both Martin McGuinness and Arlene Foster are

:08:30. > :08:33.addressing this problem. For all that they are completely divided on

:08:34. > :08:37.whether Brexit should happen or not they have been corresponding with

:08:38. > :08:42.Theresa May, they have been visiting Downing Street, they have been

:08:43. > :08:47.taking part in the British Iris council, with a determination that

:08:48. > :08:52.some kind of resolution be found that does not restore the Irish

:08:53. > :08:55.border. And that problem as a massive problem. We could talk about

:08:56. > :08:59.it in a theoretical way at this stage but it is a huge problem and

:09:00. > :09:03.that goes to the heart of everything and that goes to the heart of the

:09:04. > :09:08.Peace Process. How much I worry is that in Belfast, the idea of border

:09:09. > :09:12.posts? I know both governments have said it is unlikely and they are

:09:13. > :09:19.going to work make sure that it does not have to be anything but what do

:09:20. > :09:24.you think? Northern nationalists and that includes more than nationalists

:09:25. > :09:29.of the SDLP, the factor Unionists within Northern Ireland, many of

:09:30. > :09:34.them would tilt towards the idea of a united Ireland if there was a

:09:35. > :09:41.reinforced border, if the economy of the United Kingdom went into decline

:09:42. > :09:45.after Brexit, and Scotland went for independence. If those three things

:09:46. > :09:49.happen I think you will get a very strong move towards a united

:09:50. > :09:53.Ireland, and I know I am seeing something that a lot of people find

:09:54. > :09:57.outrageous and have not got the head around yet but that is the reality

:09:58. > :10:01.of the situation. There are problems of you do not have Border Controls.

:10:02. > :10:04.He will customs and pause differences in tariffs about

:10:05. > :10:08.searching lorries? How would you combat illegal immigration into the

:10:09. > :10:17.UK. If people find it difficult getting into the UK through Calais

:10:18. > :10:21.they might find Ireland a softer touch. I was at a conference where

:10:22. > :10:26.academics were saying there should be a new border drawn on the Irish

:10:27. > :10:28.Sea and make Northern Ireland a semidetached member of the European

:10:29. > :10:34.Union because of the land border with Ireland. That is something that

:10:35. > :10:36.Unionists would find completely undesirable and Arlene Foster,

:10:37. > :10:42.knowing that as an idea that is in the next, is simply rejecting it out

:10:43. > :10:46.of hand completely. But either you are going to have some kind of

:10:47. > :10:50.semidetached and ancient fort Northern Ireland in the European

:10:51. > :10:52.Union and therefore our border in the Irish Sea, or you are going to

:10:53. > :10:56.have a border across Ireland which is going to outreach Northern

:10:57. > :10:59.nationalists, or you are going to have to come up with some idea that

:11:00. > :11:05.nobody has thought of yet, and I think that is when Nicola Sturgeon

:11:06. > :11:09.can come in. She must have ideas. She will see echoes of the Northern

:11:10. > :11:17.and experience in Scotland because in both regions it majority voted

:11:18. > :11:22.for remain, and once its integrity as a devolved units to be preserved,

:11:23. > :11:25.what its integrity as a country to be preserved, therefore new ideas

:11:26. > :11:28.have to come into play, and most things that I totally unviable and

:11:29. > :11:33.tenable something happened by default. She may have lots of new

:11:34. > :11:37.ideas and one of those ideas may be that if there is no border control

:11:38. > :11:44.in Ireland, but why on earth should be one in Scotland Scotland was to

:11:45. > :11:49.remain part of the EU single market. Do you think that there's an idea

:11:50. > :11:55.that will fly? That is the obvious parallel. We have to find a way by

:11:56. > :11:59.which Northern Ireland is part of Brexit and still has an open border

:12:00. > :12:04.with the European Union. If we find it here then you can have it too.

:12:05. > :12:08.These must be the idea is that she is discussing in Dublin. She must be

:12:09. > :12:14.thinking along these lines because that is where the Irish situation

:12:15. > :12:24.becomes fascinating I think from the Scottish perspective. Thank you.

:12:25. > :12:32.A series of allegations of child sexual abuse and England have been

:12:33. > :12:45.emerging and is now a Scot who says he was abused by former Crewe

:12:46. > :12:51.Alexandra coach Barry Bennell. Dougie Gilligan says he was abused

:12:52. > :12:56.in the 1970s. Barry Bennell, who used his position

:12:57. > :12:57.as a football coach to abuse young boys

:12:58. > :13:09.at a soccer camp. Dougie Gilligan met him on two occasions.

:13:10. > :13:13.He would invite you to spend time with him that night and then as soon

:13:14. > :13:15.as you were isolated...well, that's when it happened to me.

:13:16. > :13:19.One other time, he asked about going fishing in the morning,

:13:20. > :13:22.so staying over in his chalet with one of my friends,

:13:23. > :13:26.So there was a little bit of a safety in numbers situation

:13:27. > :13:28.there, but when both boys were sleeping then that's

:13:29. > :13:49.He had his hands down my shorts. I gave him short shrift and told him

:13:50. > :13:54.where to get off. Dougie Gilligan became a football coach him self. I

:13:55. > :14:00.made sure I was not in a situation where I was in a one to one

:14:01. > :14:06.situation with a child by myself. But also to protect the children,

:14:07. > :14:09.any time there was that situation, I made the parents aware of it, that I

:14:10. > :14:12.was not comfortable with it, and that should be something fundamental

:14:13. > :14:15.going forward, there should not be the opportunity for coaches to be

:14:16. > :14:23.one to one coaching with kids. We have disclosure now and you've

:14:24. > :14:26.been through disclosure yourself with your own coaching activities,

:14:27. > :14:29.is that sufficient, do you think? It's about kids feeling

:14:30. > :14:33.that they have the opportunity to speak to people and that

:14:34. > :14:35.they will be believed. In the past, what this is starting

:14:36. > :14:39.to show just now, is that kids came forward and they weren't believed

:14:40. > :14:41.and things were hushed up. What do you think

:14:42. > :14:53.brings these predatory I think they see it as an

:14:54. > :15:05.opportunity to get access to young children. He is now a little more

:15:06. > :15:10.people to stick up because he believes that there are more abusers

:15:11. > :15:13.and victims. Because of the stigma, people are reluctant to come

:15:14. > :15:18.forward. I feel guilty that I did not speak up earlier. I could have

:15:19. > :15:24.spoken up earlier and that could have maybe helps people. Sort of

:15:25. > :15:30.people have been abused, in your situation perhaps, who have not come

:15:31. > :15:34.forward, what should they do? I think this is an ideal opportunity

:15:35. > :15:39.for people to make it known. Even from an anonymous perspective. To

:15:40. > :15:44.try and make the police aware and people who are operating and doing

:15:45. > :15:45.these kind of things. Make sure they are penalised for what they have

:15:46. > :15:50.done. Dougie Gilligan speaking

:15:51. > :15:51.to Reevel Alderson. Now, if you want to donate blood

:15:52. > :15:54.and you happen to be a gay or bisexual man,

:15:55. > :15:56.it's not as straightforward The rules say that you must abstain

:15:57. > :16:00.from sex for one year. Well, in the Scottish Parliament

:16:01. > :16:03.tomorrow a bid will be made If successful, Scotland

:16:04. > :16:06.would be the first country The SNP MSP Rona Mackay

:16:07. > :16:09.has tabled the motion. I spoke to her a little

:16:10. > :16:27.earlier and asked if this It's about equality and inclusion. I

:16:28. > :16:33.think it's long overdue that it was addressed. As a bit of my mission to

:16:34. > :16:37.parliament last September and it achieved great cross party support

:16:38. > :16:43.so I think that shows the level of feeling about it. I'm really pleased

:16:44. > :16:49.that we were debated tomorrow. I think it will address a glaring

:16:50. > :16:55.inequality amongst men who have sex with man being able to direct blood.

:16:56. > :16:59.But it is not just about men who have sex with men. It also applies

:17:00. > :17:04.to partners who inject drugs and those who might have sex with a

:17:05. > :17:10.partners who have been sexually active in a country that has HIV. I

:17:11. > :17:19.think it is discriminatory because it singles out gay men in a way that

:17:20. > :17:25.it doesn't heterosexual people. For example, an monogamous man in a

:17:26. > :17:31.stable loving same-sex relationship is banned from giving blood for one

:17:32. > :17:40.it... Banned forgiving blood if they have given if they have had sex in

:17:41. > :17:44.the last few months and a heterosexual person isn't. That is

:17:45. > :17:49.basically targeting the sexual orientation of the person. But there

:17:50. > :17:56.is evidence that men who have sex with other men have an increased

:17:57. > :18:00.risk of getting blood-borne viruses. It is sometimes quite difficult to

:18:01. > :18:04.detect these blood-borne viruses and that they have to wait up to a year

:18:05. > :18:11.to be absolutely sure. Can she see the problems they have? The

:18:12. > :18:16.screening for HIV has come on leaps and bounds in the past three

:18:17. > :18:24.decades. This stems back to the 1980s when HIV and Aids first came

:18:25. > :18:29.to the fore. There is excellent screening now. The evidence shows

:18:30. > :18:34.that the incidence of HIV infection in him heterosexual people is on the

:18:35. > :18:40.increase. That is not reflected. There is some evidence that the 12

:18:41. > :18:46.months of therapy we could be reduced to three months. You think

:18:47. > :18:50.it should be scrapped entirely? I'm in favour of everybody being asked

:18:51. > :18:54.about the risk factors. Everyone should be asked about their sexual

:18:55. > :19:00.behaviour and not just gay men. That could have a huge impact. I wonder

:19:01. > :19:05.if the problem is that that will be replaced by a system have to give an

:19:06. > :19:12.awful lot of the club sexual activity, which Michael off-putting.

:19:13. > :19:18.Safety has to be paramount. That is at the forefront. It makes no sense

:19:19. > :19:25.under the current. Gay men have to be singled out. They can donate

:19:26. > :19:28.organs, they can donate themselves or another, the only criteria for

:19:29. > :19:34.this is that they have to be fit and healthy. The fact they are singled

:19:35. > :19:39.out when it comes to blood donations is very unfair. Plus, there has been

:19:40. > :19:44.a decreasing level of blood donations in the past ten years. But

:19:45. > :19:51.the great UK Government advisory committee is already looking into

:19:52. > :19:56.the rules. Why not waited till next year instead of jumping the gun? I

:19:57. > :20:01.don't think it is jumping the gun, it is taking the lead. The amount of

:20:02. > :20:08.cross-party support shows the level of interest. I've had a huge amount

:20:09. > :20:12.of people saying, thank goodness, at last, I'll be able to give blood

:20:13. > :20:16.cause we desperately need the blood and one in four people at some point

:20:17. > :20:18.in the life is a blood transfusion and if men can give us safely, why

:20:19. > :20:22.not? Thank you. Here with me now to discuss

:20:23. > :20:25.some of today's stories are the Herald's Scottish

:20:26. > :20:27.political editor, Tom Gordon, and the Scottish Daily Mail's deputy

:20:28. > :20:38.political editor, Rachel Watson. Tom, we have had Nicola Sturgeon in

:20:39. > :20:42.Ireland today. It has a great many headlines in Ireland but hopefully

:20:43. > :20:50.tomorrow we will have some better idea as to why she is there. Why is

:20:51. > :20:59.she there? It is about promoting the notion of Scotland having a link

:21:00. > :21:05.that is remains over the hole. She wants global membership of. She is

:21:06. > :21:14.selling herself and that notion. That is a slow start, it was a blow

:21:15. > :21:17.to make a huge difference. The Irish Government can't really enter into

:21:18. > :21:21.Brexit talks, the British Government said it wanted that directly? Yes,

:21:22. > :21:26.they're talking but they aren't having talks. She is just making

:21:27. > :21:30.friends along the way, I think. Later on, she will call on those

:21:31. > :21:34.favours but she will be making friends now. You think she is

:21:35. > :21:40.talking behind the scenes and paving the way? I don't think that Ireland

:21:41. > :21:44.are reaching the rules in any way but they are forming relationships

:21:45. > :21:51.that may be viable is run. Do you think there is much point at all,

:21:52. > :21:57.Rachel? Obviously, they want to have his view that the Scottish

:21:58. > :22:00.Government and Nicola Sturgeon are promoting the UK staying in the

:22:01. > :22:05.single market but we all know that down the road that these talks will

:22:06. > :22:09.not be possible. They say that Scotland would be possible and that

:22:10. > :22:14.Scotland would have a separate deal. At the end of the day, Nicola

:22:15. > :22:18.Sturgeon once independence and she said tonight that this might be the

:22:19. > :22:22.opportunity for that. This is helping promote an independent

:22:23. > :22:26.Scotland in Europe and internationally. Of course, she is

:22:27. > :22:33.representing what the Scottish people voted for. Yes, 62%. And what

:22:34. > :22:37.about the issue of order controls, Nicola Sturgeon is trying to create

:22:38. > :22:42.parallels between Ireland and Scotland and Mrs Beck, do you think

:22:43. > :22:49.she is onto something when she said that right should be border control?

:22:50. > :22:56.We don't know yet what will happen with Ireland when Brexit happens.

:22:57. > :23:02.That is all open for discussion. Tom, Nicola Sturgeon has been all

:23:03. > :23:06.but your work trying to... What is she trying to do? Is she trying to

:23:07. > :23:12.get sympathy from Scotland's case? It's your tried to pave the way?

:23:13. > :23:16.Some of that is just meeting the players that she might have to call

:23:17. > :23:21.on in future. It is a conspicuous effort for the audience back home so

:23:22. > :23:27.that if Brexit does not pan out as she once she can go to the country

:23:28. > :23:34.and says that she put any real shift and that independence is the only

:23:35. > :23:42.option. Ukip has a new leader, poor muscle is making a speech today. --

:23:43. > :23:46.poor muscle. The country needs a strong Ukip now than ever before. If

:23:47. > :23:53.you ceases to be an electoral force, there will be no impetus on Theresa

:23:54. > :23:59.May and her Government to give us real Brexit. Rachel, doesn't he have

:24:00. > :24:04.a point that if you voted for Brexit, one way to ensure that

:24:05. > :24:10.Brexit happens is devoted Ukip? Well, they don't have anybody...

:24:11. > :24:15.That was the point, to get Brexit. The point is now with Ukip, what

:24:16. > :24:23.other going to do? He has to unify his party and come up with a new

:24:24. > :24:30.mission for Ukip. We don't know what the Conservative Government have in

:24:31. > :24:36.mind yet. She needs to come out and see it. It is a fair enough

:24:37. > :24:42.strategy, isn't it? I agree with Rachel. I think he is fighting the

:24:43. > :24:47.last battle. It is not up to Ukip or the UK Government it is up to the

:24:48. > :24:52.other 27 nations in the EU. Fortran if you want but it won't deliver the

:24:53. > :24:56.sort Brexit you once just like that. Perhaps even more interesting is

:24:57. > :25:01.that rather than talking about Donald Trump the time that may be

:25:02. > :25:06.Ukip should be targeting Labour voters, particularly in the north of

:25:07. > :25:09.England. That says that not a bad strategy either. It doesn't seem

:25:10. > :25:14.like a bad strategy but I undoubtedly work. You talk about the

:25:15. > :25:22.north of England but I don't know if that would work or is that it would

:25:23. > :25:27.be his message. What are Ukip going to say to these people? We don't

:25:28. > :25:31.know what they would say. The argument is that if people in the

:25:32. > :25:35.north of England voted for Brexit, it is natural territory for Ukip.

:25:36. > :25:42.You might already think they have already sown the seeds in the north,

:25:43. > :25:48.first of all, he has two address the internal dynamics of the party. It

:25:49. > :25:56.has been shambolic after Brexit. It has to be that the party back

:25:57. > :26:04.together. Right away, he talked about a project advert people who

:26:05. > :26:10.were making life difficult for Brexit. Let's talk about more

:26:11. > :26:14.serious issues. The nation this weekend as Ed Balls was a limited

:26:15. > :26:18.from strength come dancing. Here is a bit of his worst bus. -- worst

:26:19. > :26:46.bits. Rachel, why do politicians make

:26:47. > :26:50.fools of themselves national television? I don't know, but it

:26:51. > :26:55.definitely worked for Ed Balls. When he came in, people definitely

:26:56. > :27:00.thought, what is he doing? I think he came across really well, though.

:27:01. > :27:04.He really went for it and did not care what he looks like and had an

:27:05. > :27:09.absolute blast. I think he has come across brilliantly. Politicians like

:27:10. > :27:13.to show that they have a human side but he is the past but do you think

:27:14. > :27:20.that he might return after this. It turns out that they are a redrawing

:27:21. > :27:24.his old seat. He has first dibs on it as prospective Labour candidate.

:27:25. > :27:32.He may well come back after strictly. I am rather critical of

:27:33. > :27:36.these programmes that prey on these honourable politicians but I think

:27:37. > :27:40.he has come about it well and has shown a different side to himself.

:27:41. > :27:48.Maybe I'm old-fashioned but back in the day politicians were about

:27:49. > :27:52.policies etc but now they want to be liked the time. Yeah, but I think

:27:53. > :27:58.for him it is worked. I don't dig it would necessarily be like that for

:27:59. > :28:05.everyone. I don't know if every politician would necessarily last

:28:06. > :28:13.and how I do know what we drag -- what we drag. Do you think it has

:28:14. > :28:17.the give an overall? Yes, you have to have the showbiz in politics

:28:18. > :28:18.these days. Following in the footsteps of Donald Trump. Thanks

:28:19. > :28:21.for that. That's it for tonight.

:28:22. > :28:22.Thanks for watching. I'm back again tomorrow night,

:28:23. > :28:24.usual time, so do please