:00:00. > :00:07.It's endured for more than 300 years, but Scottish Labour
:00:08. > :00:26.think it's now time for a new Act of Union.
:00:27. > :00:30.After Calman, Smith and a referendum, is there really
:00:31. > :00:36.And Scotland's Lord Advocate gets his moment in court to make
:00:37. > :00:48.Holyrood's case for a say in triggering Article 50.
:00:49. > :00:51.Scottish Labour leader Kezia Dugdale has outlined
:00:52. > :00:53.proposals for a federal UK, which would see more powers
:00:54. > :01:01.Ms Dugdale says creating a new Act of Union will protect the UK
:01:02. > :01:07.But her critics say it's just an attempt to make
:01:08. > :01:11.And, in the current climate, how much demand is there for another
:01:12. > :01:26.It seems like we've been talking about Scotland's Constitution for
:01:27. > :01:31.ever. The Convention once action and a Scottish parliament up and running
:01:32. > :01:35.within two or three years. Back in the early 90s, heavyweight prounion
:01:36. > :01:44.politicians of the day meant to demand devolution. We will not take
:01:45. > :01:53.no for an answer. In 1999, Scotland eventually got it. In time, the
:01:54. > :01:56.parliament building crew. A decade on, the Labour inspired commission
:01:57. > :02:03.said Holyrood needed increased responsibility. And in 2014, yet
:02:04. > :02:09.another review said Scotland's parliament needed even more powers.
:02:10. > :02:13.Now the current Scottish Labour leader wants to revisit devolution
:02:14. > :02:21.yet again. Although this time, she once a UK wide solution. So what is
:02:22. > :02:24.she after? She wants a new active union to deliver what she calls a
:02:25. > :02:30.federal solution for the UK. That would mean extra powers for English
:02:31. > :02:34.regions as well as Holyrood delivered through a people's
:02:35. > :02:38.convention. I think our union across the UK faces a great deal of peril
:02:39. > :02:42.if we don't act to change things now. We are going to have a politics
:02:43. > :02:46.in our country which is dominated by a Tory and S nationalism. There is
:02:47. > :02:50.a great opportunity here to talk about power and where it sits across
:02:51. > :02:54.the whole of the UK. But it has to be done in a fundamental when that
:02:55. > :03:02.means a new act of union. We've been here before. The Liberal Democrats
:03:03. > :03:07.have long dreams of a federal UK. The idea has never come to pass but
:03:08. > :03:11.supporters say it is achievable. This is a journey about convincing
:03:12. > :03:17.people who haven't been convinced before, about the real benefits of
:03:18. > :03:20.federal reform throughout the UK. The transfer of power down to
:03:21. > :03:25.regions and nations survey control more of their own destiny. Because
:03:26. > :03:29.you don't feel's other opponents say nobody cares. For the past few
:03:30. > :03:33.weeks, we've seen everything going on in Scotland from a GP crisis, and
:03:34. > :03:37.education crisis, a transport crisis and here we have Labour talking
:03:38. > :03:41.about some random constitutional change. Most people in Scotland want
:03:42. > :03:44.to turn the page on the constitutional arguing and it's
:03:45. > :03:48.disappointing Labour are trying to open this up once again. There is
:03:49. > :03:56.also scepticism that Westminster will listen to miss Dugdale 's plan.
:03:57. > :04:00.Could there be another reason? There is no doubt that this is the
:04:01. > :04:11.Scottish Labour Party trying to come up with a plan that is not the
:04:12. > :04:17.Independent 's... The truth is, the Labour Party has been uncertain and
:04:18. > :04:21.ensure about the message it should present on constitutional
:04:22. > :04:25.settlement. Right now, Brexit on Scottish independence are dominating
:04:26. > :04:27.politics. So the question is, is there room for yet another
:04:28. > :04:28.conversation on devolution? Joining me now from Edinburgh
:04:29. > :04:31.are Labour's Lewis Macdonald, the SNP's Linda Fabiani
:04:32. > :04:46.and the Conservative's Miles Briggs. Why is a new act of union necessary?
:04:47. > :04:50.Some might say there are more pressing issues on the political
:04:51. > :04:54.agenda just now. There are many pressing issues but there is nothing
:04:55. > :04:58.which is more pressing than the consequences of the Tory's gamble on
:04:59. > :05:03.Brexit which has led us to a position where change is inevitable.
:05:04. > :05:08.The question becomes what changes did to be? Is it to be another
:05:09. > :05:12.change of separatism, turning our back on our neighbours or something
:05:13. > :05:15.positive? Something that provides a vision which can unify the country.
:05:16. > :05:20.This is a divided country as never before. It needs something that
:05:21. > :05:24.people can unite around. No matter how they roasted in this referendum
:05:25. > :05:29.or the one before. We think this up those that opportunity, a
:05:30. > :05:34.modernised, new, renewed act of union which reflects the reality of
:05:35. > :05:37.where we are. Do you not think after 300 years, it's worth looking at
:05:38. > :05:46.this again, providing a modern solution? I was just stunned when I
:05:47. > :05:51.read context today. I chaired the Scotland Bill committee. I sat
:05:52. > :05:54.through the camp Smith commission. And consistently, they've turned
:05:55. > :05:59.down the idea of additional powers. So it seems really bizarre that here
:06:00. > :06:03.they are, for some reason, deciding that they want to open all this up
:06:04. > :06:07.again. They had their chance. It seems to me it's a constant struggle
:06:08. > :06:13.for Labour to find a meaning and they will try anything. Millions of
:06:14. > :06:16.years from now, they will still be saying, let's do this or that. They
:06:17. > :06:22.don't seem capable of taking real action. The party has additional
:06:23. > :06:29.powers and many argue you are not using them properly. Of course we
:06:30. > :06:33.are. You're all sway is looking at how we are doing the best in
:06:34. > :06:37.Scotland. The Labour Party surely should be looking at how they can
:06:38. > :06:41.work with the SNP to try and get a better deal for Scotland. We found
:06:42. > :06:45.tonight that they are so representative at Westminster in
:06:46. > :06:50.Scotland, again voted against the idea of Scotland getting a real say
:06:51. > :06:54.in the Brexit negotiations. One hand doesn't know what the other hand is
:06:55. > :06:58.doing. Why doesn't the SNP work with Labour? Why don't the SNP get behind
:06:59. > :07:02.the idea of a constitutional convention that can look at all the
:07:03. > :07:06.options and allow the people to determine the way forward? That is
:07:07. > :07:14.what we are saying. We need a new solution and a new way forward,
:07:15. > :07:18.rather than the SNP reaction. We went through an independence
:07:19. > :07:23.referendum when Labour were talking about a federal solution. They were
:07:24. > :07:27.talking about is years of home rule as possible. They were talking about
:07:28. > :07:31.flowers. Then, when it got to the Smith commission, they didn't want
:07:32. > :07:43.to look at employment law powers in Scotland. They didn't want to look
:07:44. > :07:47.at minimum wage. Let me make this point, in the absence of the
:07:48. > :07:50.European Union, would this not be an opportunity to look at things like
:07:51. > :07:56.employment law? Because fishing and farming? Has your Dugdale is also
:07:57. > :08:01.talking about you powers for the English regions. They can't even
:08:02. > :08:03.come together and talk with Scotland's elected government
:08:04. > :08:08.properly about new powers for Scotland and standing up. And
:08:09. > :08:11.interest. All of a sudden, she is wanting to have a UK focus. It's
:08:12. > :08:18.about time they were looking at Scotland and doing the best for
:08:19. > :08:23.Scotland. Miles, many in your party are for federalism. Why are you not
:08:24. > :08:26.supportive of this idea? This is pretty desperate stuff. Only
:08:27. > :08:30.Scottish Labour could draw the conclusion that what Scotland needs
:08:31. > :08:34.is more constitutional uncertainty. That is where most people who have
:08:35. > :08:41.now left Labour and stop voting for them this into what has been said
:08:42. > :08:45.today and reinforce the message that you cannot trust Labour with union.
:08:46. > :08:50.Let's look at the arguments which we've had over the past four years
:08:51. > :08:53.in Scotland. We made a decision two years ago and cosier and her party
:08:54. > :08:57.don't seem to be comfortable with that outcome. We don't fully know
:08:58. > :09:00.where they stand. She says she is for the union. The deputy leader
:09:01. > :09:04.wants another independence referendum. This is just adding to
:09:05. > :09:08.yet more confusion about what Scottish Labour is actually four in
:09:09. > :09:16.Scotland. That is a point that has been made, you appear muddled. You
:09:17. > :09:26.are neither Unionist nor independent. What are you and is
:09:27. > :09:30.that the part of your problem? It's pretty rich to have the Tories
:09:31. > :09:40.accusing Labour of undermining the union. This... Ever since the day
:09:41. > :09:48.after the referendum when David Cameron came forth to announce
:09:49. > :09:55.English laws of English votes. It intentionally and deliberately stood
:09:56. > :09:59.up English nationalism. That whirlwind, Brexit, has changed the
:10:00. > :10:02.situation completely. I think that's clear to everyone living in
:10:03. > :10:06.Scotland. We do not want to go down the road of a sterile argument again
:10:07. > :10:11.about independence on the one hand and the kind of nationalists
:10:12. > :10:14.alternative from the Conservative Party and the other hand. What we
:10:15. > :10:17.actually want something positive that the country can unite around.
:10:18. > :10:23.We are very clear that the way to safeguard the union, the Democratic
:10:24. > :10:27.union that we believe in the union that can redistribute power and
:10:28. > :10:37.wealth within the country is to go down this road of radical change in
:10:38. > :10:41.the direction of federal Britain. It is our job to get the message across
:10:42. > :10:47.and it's our job to say to people, if you don't want a sterile argument
:10:48. > :10:51.over independence or a reactionary hard Brexit that turns our back on
:10:52. > :10:54.Europe, then here are some that offers a positive way forward,
:10:55. > :10:58.maintains our strong relationship with Europe but also maintains and
:10:59. > :11:03.safeguards the United Kingdom for generations to come. The whole
:11:04. > :11:06.argument which was being made today was that actually England would have
:11:07. > :11:09.to have some sort of regional government. England has rejected
:11:10. > :11:14.that and she cannot force that. We shouldn't be dictating to England
:11:15. > :11:17.what they should be doing. We should be finding solutions to Scotland and
:11:18. > :11:22.our Scotland Parliament. For Labour, they are walking down the road the
:11:23. > :11:26.SNP want them to. Over the past few weeks, we've seen failings in
:11:27. > :11:30.education, transport and health and here we have Labour now dancing to
:11:31. > :11:34.the SNP's tune on the constitution. They need to get back to their own
:11:35. > :11:41.day job of being an opposition party in Hollywood because they are
:11:42. > :11:45.failing completely to do that. Talk of constitutional change ended up
:11:46. > :11:49.leading to devolution. Do you not think federalism could help in your
:11:50. > :11:55.aim towards independence? Federalism is only possible if the centre which
:11:56. > :12:04.is Westminster ones to divest power. I'm afraid I have seen no real plans
:12:05. > :12:09.at all from Westminster to divest real power. But I'm horrified about
:12:10. > :12:18.tonight is Labour and the Tories voted tonight to stop Scotland
:12:19. > :12:25.having a real say in Brexit. To talk of radical change is just nonsense.
:12:26. > :12:27.You always know the SNP are afraid of the big picture when they start
:12:28. > :12:35.talking about small details. The big picture here is is we do not want to
:12:36. > :12:40.go down the road that the SNP want to take a stand of an independence
:12:41. > :12:47.referendum. Completely wrong to say... It has been said there is no
:12:48. > :12:50.appetite for devolution in England. In London and in other cities, we
:12:51. > :12:54.have seen the kind of devolution letting them once and that's
:12:55. > :12:59.something that can be accommodated in a federal United Kingdom. The
:13:00. > :13:04.Mayor of London has said, and he's right, the 19th century was the time
:13:05. > :13:08.of empires. The 20th century was the era of the nation state. The 21st
:13:09. > :13:12.century is the age of cities and regions. The nations and regions of
:13:13. > :13:17.the United Kingdom can come together on a renewed basis. We are offering
:13:18. > :13:20.a way forward. I think an awful lot of people in Scotland and across the
:13:21. > :13:24.UK, when they consider these options, they will consider that as
:13:25. > :13:29.the most progressive one. A quick response. Start looking after
:13:30. > :13:36.Scotland. That is what people in Scotland would expect. We are going
:13:37. > :13:39.to have to leave it there. Thank you all for joining us.
:13:40. > :13:40.Scotland's highest law officer, the Lord Advocate,
:13:41. > :13:43.was at the Supreme Court in London today making the Scottish
:13:44. > :13:47.Government's case for a say in when Article 50 is triggered.
:13:48. > :13:50.James Wolffe told the Supreme Court it would be unlawful for
:13:51. > :13:55.a withdrawal from the European Union to start without Holyrood's consent.
:13:56. > :13:57.Well, our political correspondent Nick Eardley was watching
:13:58. > :14:11.The central question that is being asked is whether the parliament
:14:12. > :14:15.behind me needs to vote before article 50 is triggered. The UK
:14:16. > :14:19.Government says no. It says it can use executive powers. The people who
:14:20. > :14:25.won a High Court case say yes, Parliament doesn't vote. Today,
:14:26. > :14:29.Scotland's Lord Advocate, the most senior legal figure in the Scottish
:14:30. > :14:32.Government backed up the latter of those arguments, saying that in
:14:33. > :14:36.terms of Scots law, it's up to Parliament and not government
:14:37. > :14:41.relying on crime powers to make that decision. He went further and said
:14:42. > :14:45.that because aid bill under their argument will have to come before
:14:46. > :14:49.the Westminster Parliament, Holyrood should have a say, too. That's
:14:50. > :14:52.because it will affect devolved areas, changing what the Scottish
:14:53. > :14:57.Government and the Scottish parliament can do in terms of
:14:58. > :15:03.engaging with European directives. And because it means laws passed by
:15:04. > :15:07.the devolved parliament in Holyrood will be altered if they are
:15:08. > :15:13.contingent on being a member of the European Union.
:15:14. > :15:19.If the bill were to come before the United Kingdom Parliament which
:15:20. > :15:23.change things for the Scottish Parliament or the Scottish
:15:24. > :15:28.Government in these ways, such a bill would engage the legislative
:15:29. > :15:32.consent convention. Now, one of the interesting things about the Supreme
:15:33. > :15:37.Court Case is that the 11 Justice 's sitting around the table have not
:15:38. > :15:40.been scared to let their opinions known, to ask questions, to
:15:41. > :15:44.challenge the legal teams that are making submissions and that was to
:15:45. > :15:50.hear. Many of us are struggling to see exactly how the Sewel convention
:15:51. > :15:57.impacts on the central issue before us. There should be no dispute that
:15:58. > :16:02.the legislative consent convention as part of this. The UK Government
:16:03. > :16:06.disagrees that the Lord Advocate on this. We heard yesterday from the
:16:07. > :16:11.Advocate general, he is another lawyer, he is the man who advises
:16:12. > :16:14.the UK Government on Scots Law. He said that because leaving the
:16:15. > :16:18.European Union is a reserved issue that Holyrood does not need to have
:16:19. > :16:25.a seat and he said that the Sewel convention, rather than being
:16:26. > :16:27.something for the courts to decide was a political convention,
:16:28. > :16:31.essentially Westminster remains sovereign. Politically, the argument
:16:32. > :16:36.might be different but legally, that is the case. Tomorrow morning we
:16:37. > :16:39.will hear the last of the Lord Advocate's submission and then the
:16:40. > :16:43.question of water Holyrood needs to have a formal role in the Article 50
:16:44. > :16:53.process will come down to the judges.
:16:54. > :16:56.Shortly before we came on air, I spoke with Michael Keating,
:16:57. > :16:59.the director of the Centre on Constitutional Change.
:17:00. > :17:08.Talk us through this central argument, please? It has to give
:17:09. > :17:14.notice to the other European countries. The first court, the High
:17:15. > :17:17.Court in London said yes, it did need parliamentary approval. The
:17:18. > :17:21.position of the government was it did not because its foreign affairs
:17:22. > :17:26.comes under the Royal Prerogative. They've position is that it changes
:17:27. > :17:29.the domestic law and United Kingdom. That has been appealed to the
:17:30. > :17:32.Supreme Court which has been setting this week and the Scottish
:17:33. > :17:36.Government has now joined the argument, saying that, yes, the UK
:17:37. > :17:40.Government would need the approval of Westminster, but it would also
:17:41. > :17:45.need the approval of the Scottish Parliament under the so-called Sewel
:17:46. > :17:49.convention. That says that when Westminster legislates on devolved
:17:50. > :17:53.matters or changes powers of the Scottish Parliament, it needs the
:17:54. > :17:55.consent of the Scottish Parliament and the interpretation is that
:17:56. > :18:00.Brexit does exactly that and therefore they would have to be a
:18:01. > :18:03.vote in the Scottish Parliament as well as at Westminster. Lord Sewel
:18:04. > :18:07.himself today said that foreign affairs is not a devolved matter and
:18:08. > :18:12.therefore the Sewel convention does not apply. That is one argument, the
:18:13. > :18:16.argument against it is that the European communities act that took
:18:17. > :18:21.us into what is now the European Union does affect domestic policy,
:18:22. > :18:25.the European Union is not just foreign affairs, it affects
:18:26. > :18:29.commercial policy, economic policy, environment policy, agriculture, all
:18:30. > :18:34.kinds of things. So it does change domestic law. That is the point of
:18:35. > :18:38.the argument. And in the other question is whether the Sewel
:18:39. > :18:43.convention itself is enforceable. There are different interpretations
:18:44. > :18:47.of that as we have seen any court this week. Lord Wilson made the
:18:48. > :18:51.point this week, he asked if this was an extra argument on top of what
:18:52. > :18:55.they are already being asked to look at, which is whether or not the UK
:18:56. > :18:59.Parliament should vote, is this the next argument? It is an extension of
:19:00. > :19:03.that argument, it is saying that at the Westminster Parliament does
:19:04. > :19:08.vote, then the Sewel convention will kick in because this does affect
:19:09. > :19:11.devolved powers. Now, it is a different argument because the main
:19:12. > :19:16.argument about what the Westminster would have to do it at a very solid
:19:17. > :19:25.constitutional argument, the argument about the Sewel convention
:19:26. > :19:27.is a little bit softer because it is only a convention and Westminster,
:19:28. > :19:31.sorry, the Westminster government has said that not only is this a
:19:32. > :19:34.matter of foreign affairs and so the Sewel convention does not come into
:19:35. > :19:38.play, but even the Sewel convention is not enforceable in law, which
:19:39. > :19:43.raises a serious constitutional question because one has to ask what
:19:44. > :19:47.that convention is for if it cannot be enforced. The Attorney General
:19:48. > :19:50.for Northern Ireland also addressed the court today, Wales will get an
:19:51. > :19:55.opportunity as well but their arguments would be different, do you
:19:56. > :19:59.think? The northern Ireland argument has a ready been rehearsed in their
:20:00. > :20:02.own courts were their argument did not prevail, but it is a similar
:20:03. > :20:06.arguments to the one in Scotland with an additional complication over
:20:07. > :20:11.the position of the Republic of Ireland. The Welsh Government has
:20:12. > :20:15.not tried to stop Brexit because Wales voted to leave the European
:20:16. > :20:18.Union, so the political circumstances are quite different.
:20:19. > :20:23.The Sewel convention does apply their but not as thin as strong a
:20:24. > :20:28.way as it would in Scotland. This is all untested in the courts, of
:20:29. > :20:32.course, that is why this case is so important. Uncharted territory
:20:33. > :20:38.tonight the MPs back to the Brexit timetable so that the Article 50 can
:20:39. > :20:42.be triggered by the end of March, when do we think we will hear the
:20:43. > :20:46.verdict from the Supreme Court judges? This would probably be in
:20:47. > :20:50.early January. If it says that there must be a Westminster Bill, we still
:20:51. > :20:54.need to know what kind of bill it will be, it could be a one paragraph
:20:55. > :20:58.Bill rushed through in a few days or it could be a more substantial bill
:20:59. > :21:03.and that would be up to Parliament as to what it want to tie the hands
:21:04. > :21:08.of the government or whether it the back to the Westminster government.
:21:09. > :21:11.I would expect the Labour Party to take a distinct position on that,
:21:12. > :21:19.the Lib Dems and the SNP have been quite clear that they will vote
:21:20. > :21:21.against, almost certainly against triggering article 15. So it could
:21:22. > :21:27.come down to what the Labour Party decides. -- Article 50. Very
:21:28. > :21:31.quickly, should they dismiss a Scottish Parliament vote, is there
:21:32. > :21:35.any other route the Scottish Government can go down? The
:21:36. > :21:41.Constitutional Convention suggest that the Scottish Parliament must be
:21:42. > :21:47.listened to but we have a slightly lopsided constitution is that what
:21:48. > :21:49.the Scottish Parliament can do, but no legally enforceable restrictions
:21:50. > :21:52.as to what Westminster can do. Professor Michael Keating there.
:21:53. > :21:55.Now, joining me to discuss the day's big stories are the Sunday Herald's
:21:56. > :21:56.investigations editor, Paul Hutcheon, and Jenni Davidson
:21:57. > :22:11.Good evening to you both. We will begin with some news that is of a.
:22:12. > :22:14.-- of a sad note. And sad news tonight -
:22:15. > :22:16.the Scottish Conservative MSP He was a regular contributor on this
:22:17. > :22:26.programme and had served Jenni, he must have been a figure
:22:27. > :22:29.that you so often at Holyrood? Yes, you continue see the chip it is
:22:30. > :22:34.pouring in today. He was very popular across all of the parties,
:22:35. > :22:37.people mentioning how he was very funny and even if you did not agree
:22:38. > :22:45.with him, you always got on well with him. Both from journalists and
:22:46. > :22:49.politicians. A lot of sadness. Paul, a popular figure and also a
:22:50. > :22:56.long-standing MSP, one of the originals. Yes, he was there from
:22:57. > :23:00.the first day. Ten years, always returning the calls of journalists,
:23:01. > :23:03.always very honest and forthright. He was a committed and passionate
:23:04. > :23:08.conservative but not in the overbearing and dogmatic way. I
:23:09. > :23:12.think as you saw on the tributes in the media and on Twitter today and
:23:13. > :23:18.from politicians, he was a very popular man.
:23:19. > :23:27.Kezia Dugdale has called for a new Act of Union, Paul, was this a well
:23:28. > :23:31.conceived idea at the right time or the wrong time? I think it was about
:23:32. > :23:35.addressing internal tensions within the Labour Party. The critics of
:23:36. > :23:40.Kezia have said that she has nothing to say on the Constitution, I would
:23:41. > :23:47.see it in that context. There are some problems federalism requires a
:23:48. > :23:51.UK wide solution, so you need Westminster backing it, I am not
:23:52. > :23:55.convinced that Jeremy Corbyn is in favour of federalism. You need the
:23:56. > :23:59.Welsh Assembly, the Northern Ireland Assembly, London and the English
:24:00. > :24:03.regions buying into it and call me cynical but I do not think that the
:24:04. > :24:07.leader of the third largest party in the Scottish Parliament who is
:24:08. > :24:11.polling only 14% is going to trigger one of the biggest constitutional
:24:12. > :24:16.changes in decades. Secondly, I have lost track of the number of times
:24:17. > :24:19.Labour has got itself bogged down in the constitutional process. We have
:24:20. > :24:23.had the Calman Commission, the Smith Commission, we had Labour's internal
:24:24. > :24:28.devolution commission, none of these things added a single vote to the
:24:29. > :24:33.Labour cause. It is a strong soap or Justice party, not a constitutional
:24:34. > :24:37.party, whenever it speaks on constitution, it feels like it is
:24:38. > :24:42.some kind of tactical manoeuvres, I cannot see this as being their
:24:43. > :24:47.salvation. Jenni, has labour stuck itself any problem between the
:24:48. > :24:50.Tories being the strong union party, that is how they sold themselves at
:24:51. > :24:55.the last Holyrood election and they did well at that election and then
:24:56. > :24:59.the SNP, of course, many of the left minded people have gone to them.
:25:00. > :25:05.That is a problem for them, they have not known which direction to go
:25:06. > :25:10.on that they have had unique place. There is not another left of centre
:25:11. > :25:12.Unionist party but there are questions as to whether people are
:25:13. > :25:16.looking for that. However, I think perhaps they have left it too great
:25:17. > :25:19.for this, they have floundered about in the middle, not been quite clear
:25:20. > :25:24.as to where they stand constitutionally. In the Scottish
:25:25. > :25:28.Parliament election, they were talking about stop talking about the
:25:29. > :25:31.constitution and talking policy and getting on with the work of
:25:32. > :25:35.governing and know they have brought this constitutional question back
:25:36. > :25:39.again. It is at a time when people are not going to want to listen,
:25:40. > :25:42.even if it was a good idea from another party, perhaps at another
:25:43. > :25:49.time or from them at another time, this is not the time that people
:25:50. > :25:51.will be interested. We talked about the Brexit Supreme Court case but
:25:52. > :25:53.there are months after the Brexit vote, some social research news.
:25:54. > :25:56.Months after the Brexit vote, the social research institute NatCen
:25:57. > :25:58.has attempted to answer the question of who voted to leave
:25:59. > :26:02.Here are some of their findings from the report -
:26:03. > :26:13.70% of the voters were people living in local authority social housing.
:26:14. > :26:18.Compared to 47% of homeowners. When it came to education those most
:26:19. > :26:22.likely to Vote Leave were those with no formal education qualifications.
:26:23. > :26:28.While a quarter of those with a degree voted Leave. Looking at
:26:29. > :26:34.income group, 66% of people earning less than ?1200 a month considered
:26:35. > :26:39.leaving. At the other end, 28% of the top earners, those taking home
:26:40. > :26:44.more than ?3700 per month also voted to be. #30 8%. Looking at the Brexit
:26:45. > :26:49.vote by political party allegiance across the UK by people who
:26:50. > :26:57.identified with the Tories, 58% were Leaders. 60% wanted to leave and in
:26:58. > :27:03.Scotland, a surprising 36% of SNP supporters said they supported
:27:04. > :27:06.Brexit. Paul, we knew some of this information already but this is a
:27:07. > :27:10.fairly extensive survey as well and some interesting findings. Yes, no
:27:11. > :27:14.huge surprises but what struck me was that people with no formal
:27:15. > :27:18.education and people at the bottom of the income bracket overwhelmingly
:27:19. > :27:23.voted for Brexit. Any political context, I think that is more of a
:27:24. > :27:27.problem for the centre-left than the centre-right. People on the
:27:28. > :27:30.progressive side of politics have this idealised image of
:27:31. > :27:34.working-class voters and what they are angry about. You saw from Brexit
:27:35. > :27:40.be seen to be angry about things like immigration and globalisation.
:27:41. > :27:44.Although the economy came out higher than immigration in the survey as
:27:45. > :27:48.the main issue. That is correct. I think that ties into globalisation
:27:49. > :27:56.and this feeling that people have been left behind by the status quo
:27:57. > :27:59.it and the pace of change. I do wonder how the liberal left will try
:28:00. > :28:03.and re-engage with voters and emotionally connect with people in a
:28:04. > :28:08.way that fog on the right seem to manage at the moment. Jenni,
:28:09. > :28:12.interesting reading in fact for all politicians, giving a sense of what
:28:13. > :28:19.the row of certain people to Vote Leave. Yes, there were clear
:28:20. > :28:25.demographics, particularly older working-class, people with less
:28:26. > :28:31.education and also interestingly there was a kind of group of Richer
:28:32. > :28:34.Eurosceptics who had a particular authoritarian anti-welfare perhaps
:28:35. > :28:40.typically perhaps right wing viewpoint. So you can divide it up
:28:41. > :28:45.into sort of target groups to them think about, well, how do we
:28:46. > :28:56.approach those waters, you know, what were the unhappy with? What are
:28:57. > :29:02.choosing to Vote Leave for? Obviously Leave it a good result for
:29:03. > :29:06.some people, it is a bad result for others, especially people who are
:29:07. > :29:09.wanting to reach those groups, they now have the data to work on. A
:29:10. > :29:11.quick word on populist politics. US President-elect Donald Trump has
:29:12. > :29:13.been named Time magazine's Person Here he is on the publication's
:29:14. > :29:17.front cover, which was shot in his penthouse on the 66th floor
:29:18. > :29:27.of Trump Tower in New Paul, a surprise, do you think? He
:29:28. > :29:34.came highly only Twitter yesterday. Past winners include Henry
:29:35. > :29:38.Kissinger, Newt Gingrich, Hitler... It as Person of the year, Jenni, it
:29:39. > :29:43.does not have to be a great person, it is who we have talked about. That
:29:44. > :29:46.is correct, not always a sign of approval, it is who has been
:29:47. > :29:48.important and influential, and from that point of view, it is a fair
:29:49. > :29:50.pack. Thank you both. I'm back again on Monday night
:29:51. > :29:55.at the usual time for what will be So, the ayes have it,
:29:56. > :30:44.the ayes have it. MPs overwhelmingly agreed
:30:45. > :31:01.on everything Brexit today. The MPs voted to support triggering
:31:02. > :31:02.article 50 by March after the publication of a