:00:00. > :00:00.Breast cancer patients in Scotland are refused a drug available
:00:00. > :00:27.Campaigners say it's the ultimate postcode lottery.
:00:28. > :00:30.Why are cancer patients in Scotland being refused a drug available
:00:31. > :00:34.on the NHS in England, Wales and Northern Ireland?
:00:35. > :00:36.New figures show an overall rise in teacher numbers here,
:00:37. > :00:42.but 12 areas are still struggling to recruit staff.
:00:43. > :00:51.And is gin set to become the new whisky?
:00:52. > :00:58.The Scottish Medicines Consortium has refused breast cancer sufferers
:00:59. > :01:00.routine access to a treatment available to patients
:01:01. > :01:09.The SMC says it has concerns about the long-term survival
:01:10. > :01:12.benefits of the drug Perjeta - a decision campaigners have branded
:01:13. > :01:16.Earlier we spoke to mum-of-two Lesley Graham.
:01:17. > :01:18.She was diagnosed with cancer but was denied access
:01:19. > :01:22.to a life-prolonging drug on the NHS.
:01:23. > :01:26.She eventually won her fight to get the treatment,
:01:27. > :01:29.but has described the current system which decides who gets access
:01:30. > :01:47.March, 2015, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. Primary breast
:01:48. > :02:00.cancer. And they underwent chemotherapy, followed by,
:02:01. > :02:14.-- followed by a masectomy. I had a routine blood test in April and it
:02:15. > :02:18.showed a liver abnormality and so they had to investigate that, and on
:02:19. > :02:26.further investigation, it ensured that the cancer had come back, or
:02:27. > :02:31.who knows if it ever went away. My doctor said that there was a drug
:02:32. > :02:38.which could help me, but it is not funded on the NHS. My response to
:02:39. > :02:43.him was, how do we get it then? He told me it was a very expensive drug
:02:44. > :02:52.and the best route would be to apply for the drug to be used. We were
:02:53. > :02:59.told that I was not going to be given it, and I believe the reasons
:03:00. > :03:04.for it were that they did not know that the cost of the drug to the
:03:05. > :03:15.benefit of the drug would be worth it. My response to that is, no way,
:03:16. > :03:22.I am not having any of that. Everyone deserves a chance at life,
:03:23. > :03:27.and that is why I asked them to appeal for the drug, and they came
:03:28. > :03:32.back and said, they would approve the drug for me. I started the drug
:03:33. > :03:37.in May, and the response is that nobody has shown to the drugs has
:03:38. > :03:44.been fantastic. I would just urge anyone out there, do not take no for
:03:45. > :03:50.an answer, explore every avenue, every possibility, at the end of the
:03:51. > :03:57.day, the people that make these decisions and the people that decide
:03:58. > :04:00.what is going to happen to you, our public servants, they are paid from
:04:01. > :04:03.the public purse, and therefore you have every right to question what
:04:04. > :04:08.has been said or what has been offered. If you do not question it,
:04:09. > :04:12.you will never know. If I had not questioned it and pushed and pushed,
:04:13. > :04:17.I really do not know where I would have been today. I think it is
:04:18. > :04:27.barbaric, and I think that somebody must be held accountable, if they
:04:28. > :04:32.have produced or can access a drug which can help somebody who has been
:04:33. > :04:35.handed, at this moment in time, an incurable diagnosis, if there is
:04:36. > :04:39.something there that can offer that person any amount of time longer
:04:40. > :04:43.with their family, and that person wants to do that, then I think that
:04:44. > :04:52.they should be given the chance. I am a mother of two young girls, and
:04:53. > :04:58.it is vital, it is important but it is vital to me that I am here to get
:04:59. > :05:04.my girls through their childhood and teenage years and be here for as
:05:05. > :05:05.long as I possibly can. Because your family is everything. My family are
:05:06. > :05:08.so precious to me. Well, earlier this evening
:05:09. > :05:10.I spoke to Allyson Pollock, professor of public health research
:05:11. > :05:23.and policy at the Queen Mary Leslie, who we just heard from
:05:24. > :05:27.there, had her drug refused on the basis of value for money. The
:05:28. > :05:30.Scottish Medicines Consortium regularly has to make these are
:05:31. > :05:33.important and very difficult decisions about drugs, and
:05:34. > :05:41.ultimately it becomes a balancing act between cost and benefit. How do
:05:42. > :05:44.they decide? The first thing is a drug really should not be proved by
:05:45. > :05:50.the regulator unless it has shown clear evidence of therapeutic
:05:51. > :05:55.benefit -- approved. But often there is a great deal of uncertainty about
:05:56. > :06:01.the therapeutic benefits, because the clinical trials themselves are
:06:02. > :06:04.very small, they are not generalised to the population that needs them,
:06:05. > :06:09.and the outcome measures that the use do not sure real evidence of
:06:10. > :06:13.benefits. In the case of cancer patients, what you want is people
:06:14. > :06:17.having disease-free survival and improves quality-of-life, but the
:06:18. > :06:20.trouble is the drug companies are moving the goalposts, to introduce
:06:21. > :06:27.what is called Sara get end points, where there is no clear evidence of
:06:28. > :06:36.disease-free survival -- Sara get end points. In the case of
:06:37. > :06:43.Pertuzumab, that was turned down because of the end points been used
:06:44. > :06:46.by companies, which was looking at tumour shrinkage rather than
:06:47. > :06:53.disease-free survival, which is the important one. That is very common
:06:54. > :06:58.in cancer and oncology drugs. That is the first issue, is there
:06:59. > :07:02.evidence of benefit. Second, if there is evidence of benefit, do
:07:03. > :07:08.they outweigh the harm is and are be cost-effective? Will they actually
:07:09. > :07:12.result in greater benefits than other treatments or other therapies,
:07:13. > :07:22.for example? That requires a lot of economic monitoring. Perjeta, the
:07:23. > :07:29.drug you are referring to, the breast cancer drug denied for use
:07:30. > :07:32.here, that has been approved in the rest of the UK. That is very
:07:33. > :07:36.surprising and it shows you something about the extraordinary
:07:37. > :07:47.lobbying by the drug companies, because they put the regulator and
:07:48. > :07:52.NICE under a great deal of pressure to approve drugs and recognise new
:07:53. > :07:57.end points which are not always very clear. NICE itself has said that
:07:58. > :08:01.there is a great deal of uncertainty about the benefit of these drugs,
:08:02. > :08:11.and one of the reasons why NICE in the end gave in, was because the
:08:12. > :08:14.company did a deal to reduce the cost of the drugs, we do not know
:08:15. > :08:18.how much they have discounted at it, but they have done a deal on
:08:19. > :08:22.reducing the cost. There is a bigger issue, we really need to understand
:08:23. > :08:29.the quality and the nature of the clinical trials data, which is often
:08:30. > :08:32.not in the public domain, and often not therefore patients to judge
:08:33. > :08:34.whether the evidence is good enough to have approved these drugs. But
:08:35. > :08:38.patients in a desperate situation who think that there is a chance,
:08:39. > :08:41.and your cases, we have just heard one, we're a drug can make a
:08:42. > :08:43.difference, money will make no difference to them and it becomes a
:08:44. > :09:00.motive and the idea that there is a postcode lottery, that
:09:01. > :09:03.you cannot just even be given the chance to try something because of
:09:04. > :09:05.where you live, is hugely difficult to swallow.
:09:06. > :09:07.We would not really want people to be given snake oil if there is no
:09:08. > :09:10.evidence of benefit. Where there is a great deal of uncertainty, we have
:09:11. > :09:12.to have proper randomised controlled trials. One of the problems with
:09:13. > :09:14.these drugs is that they are very small trials and they're not
:09:15. > :09:17.generalisable and there is huge uncertainty and no evidence of
:09:18. > :09:23.benefits. Remember that has to be balanced against the other claims on
:09:24. > :09:29.the NHS budget, so palliative care, rheumatology, arthritis treatments,
:09:30. > :09:32.all sorts of other treatments. So it is a balancing act, and what we
:09:33. > :09:36.should be doing is introducing medicines and technology so that we
:09:37. > :09:40.know there is clear technology that works, and then funding them
:09:41. > :09:45.properly. That Israeli where we need to be going. We need to make
:09:46. > :09:49.priorities with our public health system and public health money and
:09:50. > :09:54.we should really not be giving in to big pressure from the drug
:09:55. > :09:57.companies, but we should be funding things where there is clear evidence
:09:58. > :10:02.of benefit. There is a lot of movement in the NHS between the
:10:03. > :10:06.countries of the UK. Is there a case with these decisions to be made on a
:10:07. > :10:10.UK wide basis, despite the fact we have our own health system here in
:10:11. > :10:18.Scotland? Would it be seen to be fairer, would be more effective if
:10:19. > :10:21.it was made across the UK? One of the problems is that England no
:10:22. > :10:24.longer has an NHS, it is dismantling its NHS. Indeed, it is ironic that
:10:25. > :10:28.the struck has been given the go-ahead at a time when three
:10:29. > :10:33.quarters of the hospitals are in serious financial difficulties and
:10:34. > :10:36.was a ?30 billion shortfall over the next couple of years. Hospitals and
:10:37. > :10:40.services are closing rate across England at a time when they are
:10:41. > :10:45.giving approval for treatments which NICE have said are hugely uncertain
:10:46. > :10:49.in terms of their benefits. So actually Scotland still has got an
:10:50. > :10:53.NHS and it should still be making proper decisions about how to
:10:54. > :10:57.prioritise medicines and treatments. These decisions are not easy, but we
:10:58. > :11:02.should start by having clear evidence of benefit, and that relies
:11:03. > :11:08.on the clinical trials that are being given to the drug companies to
:11:09. > :11:12.show this clear benefit, and they have not in the case of Perjeta.
:11:13. > :11:15.Now, almost 51,000 teachers are working in Scottish schools,
:11:16. > :11:18.according to the official statistics out today.
:11:19. > :11:24.They reflect an overall rise, after two years of decline.
:11:25. > :11:26.But many councils have told BBC Scotland
:11:27. > :11:29.that they're finding it hard to fill some vacancies.
:11:30. > :11:31.The largest percentage decrease was in Moray.
:11:32. > :11:35.Our reporter there is Craig Anderson.
:11:36. > :11:47.One local authority, Moray Council, is sane and particularly hard to
:11:48. > :11:52.attract teachers. Currently there are seven posts for primary school
:11:53. > :11:56.head teachers. The council has tried a variety of ways to bring in new
:11:57. > :12:01.blood. We have had a major advertising
:12:02. > :12:05.campaign, we have used social media quite extensively to try to attract
:12:06. > :12:11.teachers from here and elsewhere to try to come and work in Moray. We
:12:12. > :12:14.have been involved in a partnership with a local building developer and
:12:15. > :12:18.we have provided six months of rent-free accommodation to teachers.
:12:19. > :12:20.He provide very generous relocation packages, so we have done quite a
:12:21. > :12:26.lot already. It emerged today that senior pupils
:12:27. > :12:31.at one highland secondary will set their prelim exams and competing
:12:32. > :12:34.studies next month but have not been tot by a qualified teacher in the
:12:35. > :12:40.subject and last summer because the school has not been able to recruit
:12:41. > :12:44.such a specialist. Some of our schools have a number of significant
:12:45. > :12:51.retirement throw coming up in the next few months. We need to be able
:12:52. > :12:55.to offer subjects to young people, and that is something which we will
:12:56. > :13:00.discuss early in the New Year. I do think there are serious consequences
:13:01. > :13:04.for attainment. Education chiefs say the goal of improving educational
:13:05. > :13:07.role will not be achieved unless there is a national strategy to
:13:08. > :13:09.address the problem of teacher recruitment.
:13:10. > :13:12.Well, with me now is English teacher and writer James McEnaney, who made
:13:13. > :13:37.When I finished teacher training I did what is called ticking the box
:13:38. > :13:47.which means you can be sent anywhere in the country. I went to Arran. I
:13:48. > :13:53.did not know what to expect, but I went there for my probation and
:13:54. > :13:58.loved it, and the end of that first year I was very lucky in that a
:13:59. > :14:04.permanent job opened up and I got it and was able to stay. And you only
:14:05. > :14:09.left for personal reasons, your partner needed access to different
:14:10. > :14:15.health care. But how was that, as a rural experience? We're hearing that
:14:16. > :14:20.Derek shortages in some rural areas. It appealed to you. Why do you think
:14:21. > :14:26.it did not appeal to others? They're always going to be people for whom
:14:27. > :14:30.it is not appealing to live outside the central Alps. I don't think it's
:14:31. > :14:34.a problem. I loved my time there and I didn't really want to leave, I had
:14:35. > :14:37.to leave for personal reasons. I still have a lot of friends there
:14:38. > :14:42.who love it. But there is no getting away from the fact that it is very
:14:43. > :14:45.difficult, so the cost of living in somewhere like Arran aural areas of
:14:46. > :14:49.Scotland is extremely high. There are significant problems with
:14:50. > :14:57.housing, which is a theme that comes up again and again. There are
:14:58. > :15:02.incentives in place, though, to try to redress that. Are they working?
:15:03. > :15:08.There are in some places. There were none for me. When I moved to Arran
:15:09. > :15:14.there was nothing. I was lucky in that a friend of mine was also sent
:15:15. > :15:20.there and we shared a flat. Some areas, areas like Moray, do things
:15:21. > :15:25.to attract people and I think they are doing the best they can in many
:15:26. > :15:32.ways, but I don't think that what amounts to short-term solutions are
:15:33. > :15:37.enough to get people to move. It's definitely not going to be the
:15:38. > :15:41.solution. What about career progression? Do people gravitate
:15:42. > :15:45.towards local authorities where the attainment might be higher, if they
:15:46. > :15:50.are looking to have a fast ascent in their career, if they want to be a
:15:51. > :15:52.headteacher for example? I don't know if they go somewhere where
:15:53. > :15:56.attainment is necessarily higher, but when I have been speaking to
:15:57. > :16:01.people about this, one thing you hear a lot is that people look at
:16:02. > :16:07.rural schools or schools are more isolated areas and if they want to
:16:08. > :16:13.go on to be the head of a department or a headteacher, they worry that
:16:14. > :16:17.because there are fewer progression routes, because more schools have
:16:18. > :16:23.faculties, there are fewer options for them within those schools and if
:16:24. > :16:28.they want to leave it is one thing, if you live in Glasgow and want to
:16:29. > :16:34.move schools, but it is different if there is only one school in a given
:16:35. > :16:38.area. The issue with progression was probably always there but it has
:16:39. > :16:43.certainly been exacerbated by the cost-cutting scheme of forcing
:16:44. > :16:47.schools into using faculties. Do you and some of the people you qualified
:16:48. > :16:54.with feel good about the decision that you made going into teaching? I
:16:55. > :16:58.love teaching. It is a brilliant job, and most of the people I
:16:59. > :17:02.trained with, most of the people I knew through that period are still
:17:03. > :17:07.doing it. But there is an increasing feeling that it is becoming more and
:17:08. > :17:11.more difficult because it is becoming hard for teachers to work
:17:12. > :17:14.in a situation whereby they feel as if they are not being supported by
:17:15. > :17:17.Government and whether it is more pressure on them to sit solve
:17:18. > :17:20.problems. It used to be known
:17:21. > :17:23.as Mother's Ruin, but it seems gin is continuing its resurgance
:17:24. > :17:25.in popularity, so much so that sales of gin
:17:26. > :17:28.are set to outstrip blended Scotland now produces 70%
:17:29. > :17:35.of the gin consumed in the UK, and dozens of micro distilleries
:17:36. > :17:37.have opened here over Data from the research company
:17:38. > :17:42.Euromonitor has found blended Scotch whisky sales are expected to drop
:17:43. > :18:04.in the next three years, while gin Earlier, I spoke to Simon Fairclough
:18:05. > :18:08.about how gin is taking over from Scotch.
:18:09. > :18:15.It's quite a thought isn't it. This is the home of so much distilling
:18:16. > :18:21.heritage and history and here we are with so many gin is being produced,
:18:22. > :18:25.and I think the key lies in the fact that we are so renowned across the
:18:26. > :18:31.low before our distilling expertise, and we have at home to the
:18:32. > :18:41.International distilling at Herriot Watt University, helping a lot of
:18:42. > :18:45.people to learn to distil. And of course gin is a lot quicker than
:18:46. > :18:51.whisky. It can be done in 24 hours rather than waiting for years for it
:18:52. > :18:55.to mature. You need deep pockets and long time horizons for Scotch
:18:56. > :19:01.whisky. And Scotch isn't even Scotch until it has been aged in oak in
:19:02. > :19:06.Scotland for three years. Gin doesn't have to mature, it can be
:19:07. > :19:13.rested gently in tanks and then bottled relatively quickly. You are
:19:14. > :19:18.talking weeks rather than years. And why has it become fashionable?
:19:19. > :19:24.It is not the drink it used to be. It is being enjoyed by a whole new
:19:25. > :19:29.generation of drink is. And thank heavens for that! I think any gin
:19:30. > :19:34.fans out there will be joyously celebrating that fact. We grew up, I
:19:35. > :19:36.think, this generation, with gin being something that your
:19:37. > :19:42.grandparents drank, and it wasn't very trendy. All the old styles of
:19:43. > :19:51.gin, many of them have disappeared along the way. Now they are being
:19:52. > :19:57.reintroduced, aged gin is an citrus flavoured Jens, there through the
:19:58. > :20:01.nine teams and earlier parts of the 20th century, and there has been so
:20:02. > :20:08.much innovation by distillers across Scotland, as long as it is Juniper
:20:09. > :20:12.baste it is gin. You have a background in whisky so you have a
:20:13. > :20:19.glass in each hand, lets say. Do you think whisky is due a new image,
:20:20. > :20:26.maybe a bit of a makeover, to bring it back? Until last year, sales were
:20:27. > :20:30.on a decline. I think Scotch whisky has an immovable place across the
:20:31. > :20:36.globe as really ace fantastic spirit. And it can only be made in
:20:37. > :20:42.Scotland, by definition. So I think it has a great future. Back in the
:20:43. > :20:47.80s, when it was just coming out of the doldrums, there were lots of
:20:48. > :20:52.concerns, certainly in the company I used to work for, about getting new
:20:53. > :20:55.drinkers involved in whisky and interested in whisky, and I think
:20:56. > :21:01.there is still a hesitation for people to take to Brown spirits. Ron
:21:02. > :21:10.might have its day coming up, that is something that is coming off the
:21:11. > :21:15.drawing board -- ROM. First it was a vodka that seemed to be the rage.
:21:16. > :21:21.You could do anything you like, you could put gold flecked in to give it
:21:22. > :21:27.an extra edge. But gin is something that has always been a base for
:21:28. > :21:32.cocktails and it is an easy drink to enjoy. Perhaps easier than our
:21:33. > :21:36.native drink. But they all have their places, that is a fact. Thank
:21:37. > :21:38.you for joining us. Well, to discuss that and the rest
:21:39. > :21:41.of today's stories I'm joined by the former editor of the Times
:21:42. > :21:44.in Scotland, Magnus Linklater, and the editor of Common Space
:21:45. > :21:56.website, Angela Haggerty. Good evening to you both. On the
:21:57. > :22:01.subject of gin, Magnus, Scotland seems to have a new national drink.
:22:02. > :22:08.You say it is new but of course gin goes way back. In the 18th-century
:22:09. > :22:14.Scots were producing huge amounts of gin. Juniper plantations were
:22:15. > :22:20.planted all over in the 18th century. It was very exported all
:22:21. > :22:25.over the place. In England it became Mother's Ruin. Then they had to
:22:26. > :22:33.introduce a duty on it to phase out the epidemic of gin drinking. It is
:22:34. > :22:37.an argument for minimum pricing for alcohol. Gin goes back a long way in
:22:38. > :22:43.Scotland. And now it has a new twist. It is very much part of the
:22:44. > :22:49.cocktail culture. Angela, have you noticed how many bars and shops have
:22:50. > :22:55.strung up? I'm not a spirit drink, I'm more of a wine drinker. But it
:22:56. > :23:00.is good to see this. One of the squid is as is of the Scotch whisky
:23:01. > :23:02.industry is that his cities such a huge multinational industry and
:23:03. > :23:06.Scotland does not always reap the full reward of that industry, but if
:23:07. > :23:10.you are seeing more small independent companies springing up
:23:11. > :23:14.then you can see a real boost for communities. And they are very
:23:15. > :23:20.local, aren't they? I think every island now in Scotland seems to be
:23:21. > :23:25.reducing a distillery and a new gin. The economic benefits are still
:23:26. > :23:29.probably to trickle through. Small distilleries are all over the place.
:23:30. > :23:35.I was in Caithness the other day. They produce a beautiful gin called
:23:36. > :23:40.Rock Rose. Each one has its own individual flavour. It is an
:23:41. > :23:56.interesting industry growing up at a new level. Moving on to politics,...
:23:57. > :23:58.Would the SNP ever let politics, candidates stand in England?
:23:59. > :24:01.That was the question put to the First Minister of Scotland
:24:02. > :24:03.by actor Alan Cumming, during a candid interview
:24:04. > :24:07.The magazine called the exchange "a Hollywood meets Holyrood love-in"
:24:08. > :24:09.and this is what Nicola Sturgeon had to say.
:24:10. > :24:13.What would you say, you know how in the last election, people were
:24:14. > :24:18.saying, oh, I wish we could have SNP candidates in England. What you say
:24:19. > :24:25.to people when they suggest that? I'm tempted. Could you do that? I
:24:26. > :24:29.look at the situation in England just now and I think it is quite
:24:30. > :24:33.tragic that there is no effective opposition to the Tories, and I
:24:34. > :24:38.think there are a lot of people in England right now who feel
:24:39. > :24:45.disenfranchised and there is nobody speaking up for them. On that side
:24:46. > :24:50.of it, part of me feels the rest of the UK needs people to stand up to
:24:51. > :24:54.the Tories, but on the other hand we are the Scottish National Party, we
:24:55. > :24:59.exist to represent Scotland's interests and I think we would be
:25:00. > :25:05.guilty of far reaching ourselves to stand candidates in England.
:25:06. > :25:12.Angela, we thought it was important to assess show that in its full
:25:13. > :25:22.context. It can be easy to read the con text -- transcript and not get
:25:23. > :25:26.the context. It is all with you been raised, the appeal of the SNP in
:25:27. > :25:30.England. I saw people sharing this on social media and they were taking
:25:31. > :25:34.it very seriously. I don't go realised it was a bit of fun. But
:25:35. > :25:37.there was something she said in the interview where she talked about
:25:38. > :25:41.Brexit and how people were fighting back against austerity and poor
:25:42. > :25:45.conditions and I think that is a good point. We hear a lot about
:25:46. > :25:48.immigration and it is think it is fair to say that immigrants have
:25:49. > :25:55.been scapegoated for a lot of those problems, but the root problems for
:25:56. > :26:01.many people across England are the same is very anti-austerity,
:26:02. > :26:06.antiestablishment tone. That was Nicola Sturgeon's position in the
:26:07. > :26:12.general election debates and she came out to be very popular. There
:26:13. > :26:15.is the mood for an antiestablishment party in England, for an effective
:26:16. > :26:23.opposition, and Labour does not seem to be showing up. Magnus, is there a
:26:24. > :26:28.golf? They have an antiestablishment party called Ukip already. I'm glad
:26:29. > :26:32.Nicola at the end said it would be overreaching themselves. She has
:26:33. > :26:39.quite a job on her hands running things in Scotland. And I don't
:26:40. > :26:45.think an SNP candidate south of the border would attract much support,
:26:46. > :26:49.but who knows? We may be wrong. Perhaps just the idea of a left a
:26:50. > :26:55.party that is not labour, for those who are feeling a bit
:26:56. > :27:01.disenfranchised? Interestingly, just after the European referendum, in
:27:02. > :27:08.Southport, they had a petition to join Scotland because they were so
:27:09. > :27:10.appalled at that they all voted remained and they wanted to join
:27:11. > :27:15.Scotland because they thought it would give them the best chance of
:27:16. > :27:20.staying in Europe. So who knows? There may be some traction there.
:27:21. > :27:26.Let's touch now on loneliness. This has been identified as as big a
:27:27. > :27:32.goblin as smoking or obesity, and the Scottish Government has
:27:33. > :27:38.committed to tackling social isolation. And at this time of year,
:27:39. > :27:42.this issue becomes bigger for people who are suffering. I think it is
:27:43. > :27:45.good to hear this but you have to address the root causes and some of
:27:46. > :27:49.those will be related to poverty and a lot of the things we are seeing in
:27:50. > :27:53.the country politically, but also with a rise of technology and the
:27:54. > :27:57.way it changes the way we communicate and the way that we live
:27:58. > :28:00.our lives, the way that even the labour market will protest in the
:28:01. > :28:06.future will be heavily influenced by technology. I think it is good we
:28:07. > :28:09.start to re-evaluate how we measure quality of life people because I
:28:10. > :28:13.think, in the future, this will become a really big issue. Magnus,
:28:14. > :28:20.do you think it is an issue has become more problematic? Yes. The
:28:21. > :28:24.break-up of families, the breakdown of immunities. Loneliness is a real
:28:25. > :28:27.issue of the modern age. Whether Government is the best way to
:28:28. > :28:31.approach it is another matter. I think it is far better approached at
:28:32. > :28:35.the grass roots, at local level. Where people can get together and
:28:36. > :28:40.form groups and the problem is the local authorities themselves are
:28:41. > :28:44.being squeezed, perhaps do not have the resources. Thank you both.
:28:45. > :28:49.I'm back again tomorrow night, usual time.