:00:15. > :00:20.Welcome to historic Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum `
:00:21. > :00:25.Is one of Scotland's big tourist attractions it pulls in something
:00:26. > :00:31.like a million visitors a year. Here in the West End of Glasgow, a
:00:32. > :00:34.magnificent sound so don't `` Nickerson sandstone construction. A
:00:35. > :00:38.few hundred in fighting guests will listen to the big debate. Alex
:00:39. > :00:41.Salmond has 90 minutes to persuade the people of Scotland, the voters
:00:42. > :00:47.of Scotland off his vision of an independent Scotland. Alistair
:00:48. > :00:51.Darling has 90 minutes to persuade voters that we are better together
:00:52. > :00:55.within the United Kingdom. The debate begins at 8:30pm. Let's go
:00:56. > :01:02.inside Kelvingrove Museum now to the media room and Lorna Gordon, who
:01:03. > :01:06.will set the scene for us. The great and the good of Scottish media are
:01:07. > :01:09.assembling here in the media room, sometimes called the spin room, and
:01:10. > :01:14.will watch that debate closely. Some may declare afterwards who they
:01:15. > :01:17.think is one. With me as Andy Nichol, the Scottish political
:01:18. > :01:21.editor of the Sun. What type of wings to your readers want to hit
:01:22. > :01:26.tonight? We have a diverse range of readers. The most important reader
:01:27. > :01:32.is Mrs Nichol and last she said to me she was fact that Alex Salmond
:01:33. > :01:40.went off on a weird tangent, he didn't seem to be taking it
:01:41. > :01:43.seriously. He has to be warm on this occasion. Her view was that Alex
:01:44. > :01:48.Salmond 's didn't have too bad night but we should have expected more
:01:49. > :01:53.from him. Your paper was neutral after the debate. It said stalemate
:01:54. > :02:03.but Scotland number wise. Scotland was not the wiser. The polls seem to
:02:04. > :02:07.support the decision that we took. The undecided on both sides that
:02:08. > :02:10.people have to reach out to have been shaken but not stirred. Things
:02:11. > :02:15.have slightly moved towards the yes campaign. The problem is that the
:02:16. > :02:19.group of undecideds is getting smaller. The Sunday Herald has
:02:20. > :02:25.declared in favour of the yes vote, will your paper come out in favour
:02:26. > :02:29.any point? That is a decision above my pay grade. That debate gets
:02:30. > :02:33.underway in just under an hour 's time. Lots of activity on social
:02:34. > :03:01.media. A couple of tweets here. You can watch this debate on
:03:02. > :03:09.television, watch it online and take part using the hashtag on social
:03:10. > :03:13.media. Lorna, thanks to now. We will be join you in the media room or as
:03:14. > :03:18.the media are calling it the spin room. Polling so far has been fairly
:03:19. > :03:24.constant. We've been looking at the what Scotland thinks poll which
:03:25. > :03:28.suggests that the yes vote is about 43%, and the no vote is about 57%
:03:29. > :03:33.but that is if you exclude the people who don't know and tonight is
:03:34. > :03:35.about the people who don't know. When you talk to yes campaigners in
:03:36. > :03:41.particular, they say when they knock on doors they ask somebody from 1`10
:03:42. > :03:44.how strongly I you in favour of Scottish independence? If people say
:03:45. > :03:47.nine or ten like the lady dancing around behind me, they don't bother
:03:48. > :03:50.knocking on the door again. If they say one or two they are not that
:03:51. > :03:56.interested. If they say four, five or six we are in the middle. We are
:03:57. > :03:58.not quite sure. Those are the people who they are trying to appeal to
:03:59. > :04:03.delight, as Alex Salmond and Alistair Darling. To talk me through
:04:04. > :04:06.some of the finer points of what is going on I am joined by two leading
:04:07. > :04:11.Scottish commentators, Ruth Wishart, who is firmly of the yes
:04:12. > :04:16.camp I believe and Alex Massie, who has been making the case for better
:04:17. > :04:19.together, that the United Kingdom is better together, more or less.
:04:20. > :04:24.LAUGHTER Ball less, yes. With some
:04:25. > :04:29.reservations. We will come to their in a moment dash more or less. Let
:04:30. > :04:35.your mind ourselves of who the two participants in this debate really
:04:36. > :04:39.are. If he leads the yes campaign to Victor Riu it will be the pinnacle
:04:40. > :04:44.of Alex Salmond's political career and the fulfilment of a light on
:04:45. > :04:49.dash of a lifelong ambition. Even if they remain together, he will become
:04:50. > :04:54.one of the most influence of figures in Scottish politics over the last
:04:55. > :04:57.hundred years. Born in Linlithgow in 1954 he studied economics and
:04:58. > :05:01.medieval history at St Andrews University. He became involved in
:05:02. > :05:05.student politics there, joining the Scottish National party at a time
:05:06. > :05:10.when it was a minority party largely of fringe politics and protest
:05:11. > :05:14.votes. He worked for Scotland's Department of agriculture and
:05:15. > :05:16.fisheries and then became an oil economist at The Royal Bank of
:05:17. > :05:22.Scotland, although politically he was always of the left, a socialist
:05:23. > :05:27.and a Republican. In 1987 he became Westminster MP for Banff and Buchan,
:05:28. > :05:32.and leader of the SMP in 1990. After considerable internal wrangling is,
:05:33. > :05:39.he stood down as leader in 2007, leading the SMP where group at
:05:40. > :05:43.Westminster and called for Tony Blair to impeached for the Iraq war.
:05:44. > :05:46.Married with no children he is known as a horse racing pundit, a
:05:47. > :05:51.supporter of hearts, a very hard`working and shrewd campaigner,
:05:52. > :05:57.and a man who could become the very first ever Prime Minister of a fully
:05:58. > :06:00.independent Scotland. Alistair Darling is one of those politicians
:06:01. > :06:05.highly regarded by political friends and opponents, yet often
:06:06. > :06:08.underestimated in the media. He would readily concede he is more of
:06:09. > :06:12.a workhorse than a show horse, though the last debate with Alex
:06:13. > :06:16.Salmond showed a nose for the jugular. You cannot tell us which
:06:17. > :06:22.currency we will have! School in Musselburgh on the outskirts of
:06:23. > :06:32.Edinburgh, then University in Aberdeen with a spell as
:06:33. > :06:36.career as a lawyer while also becoming a local councillor where he
:06:37. > :06:44.led a campaign to defy Margaret Thatcher's rate`capping was. He was
:06:45. > :06:46.selected as an MP for Labour constituency, unseating the
:06:47. > :06:51.incumbent as part of a long Scottish backlash against Mrs Thatcher's
:06:52. > :06:56.politics. When Labour won its 1997 landslide, Darling had spells at the
:06:57. > :06:58.Treasury and transport and also as Scotland's Secretary of State,
:06:59. > :07:02.before becoming Chancellor of the Exchequer to Gordon Brown at the
:07:03. > :07:08.start of the worst financial and economic crisis the 70 years. In
:07:09. > :07:14.September 2007 there was the first run on a UK bank since 1860, when
:07:15. > :07:18.Northern Rock almost collapsed. Although Labour's economic policies
:07:19. > :07:22.have and always will be a source of huge political contention, Alistair
:07:23. > :07:26.Darling's: Steadiness has been praised even by political opponents.
:07:27. > :07:30.As the head of better together, the ones Marxist who once seated a
:07:31. > :07:35.sitting story MP and defied Mrs Thatcher now finds himself on the
:07:36. > :07:39.same side as his Tory and Lib Dem opponent. If the no campaign wins
:07:40. > :07:42.the vote, he will also be regarded as the man who helped save a 300
:07:43. > :07:51.year union. Those are the participants, let's
:07:52. > :07:54.have a look at the substance. What do you think Alex Salmond has to do
:07:55. > :08:01.to shift those polled more in his direction? He has a number of issues
:08:02. > :08:04.to address. Policy about currency is one. Alistair Darling will no doubt
:08:05. > :08:10.home in again on the plan B. However, during the week we had the
:08:11. > :08:14.chair of the fiscal commission, whose team had to come up with all
:08:15. > :08:16.the various scenarios that would be possible in an independent Scotland
:08:17. > :08:21.and he laid out the other ones they had examined and declared several of
:08:22. > :08:27.them were also viable including sterling eyes Asian. I don't know
:08:28. > :08:30.what First Minister will say about that but I imagine he will try to
:08:31. > :08:38.finesse that position in some way dash including sterling currency
:08:39. > :08:42.being brought in. The NHS is an issue. This was dismissed as
:08:43. > :08:46.scaremongering by the no campaign but there is a significantly
:08:47. > :08:50.different NHS in Scotland. It hasn't gone down the privatisation route.
:08:51. > :08:54.Hang on, we have some features of Alistair Darling arriving at the
:08:55. > :08:59.other end. You can just see some of the yes campaigners are making their
:09:00. > :09:03.presence felt. Mr Darling the first one to arrive, although we did see
:09:04. > :09:06.Alex Salmond earlier today as he looks around the podium and checked
:09:07. > :09:10.out I suppose rather like a footballer, the pitch before the
:09:11. > :09:15.game. Sorry, I interrupted you there. You were making the point of
:09:16. > :09:20.what he has two address. Yes, as I say, the most favourable issues from
:09:21. > :09:24.his point of view will be to carry on his assertion that the NHS in
:09:25. > :09:27.Scotland is under threat from the fact that the NHS in England has
:09:28. > :09:31.taken a significantly different route. It has gone the way of
:09:32. > :09:35.partial privatisation. Although there is some use of private
:09:36. > :09:40.medicine in Scotland it is used as a backstop to diminish waiting lists.
:09:41. > :09:43.There is no competitive tendering with the private sector involved.
:09:44. > :09:47.The NHS is probably quite a good issue for female voters. Female
:09:48. > :09:50.voters are the one area where the yes campaign has been significantly
:09:51. > :09:55.weak. There have always been fewer women prepared to say they will vote
:09:56. > :09:59.yes than men and the third issue I guess out of many will be loyal.
:10:00. > :10:05.That came back on the agenda this week. How much oil there is left?
:10:06. > :10:10.Again that was a big row. Alex Salmond, what do you think he has to
:10:11. > :10:13.do tonight? Salmon certainly has to continue... The problem he has is
:10:14. > :10:17.essentially the independence cause is on trial and he has to satisfy
:10:18. > :10:22.beyond reasonable doubt that the case for independence is robust
:10:23. > :10:24.enough to make it a worthwhile venture. Alistair Darling on the
:10:25. > :10:30.other hand has a much easier task this evening in some ways. He just
:10:31. > :10:34.needs to hug Alex Salmond close. If you think of it in terms of
:10:35. > :10:37.football, a dull, scoreless draw will suit Alistair Darling find this
:10:38. > :10:42.evening. If there was no football played at all he would be perfectly
:10:43. > :10:46.happy. Kill the clock, kill time, prevent anything happening, because
:10:47. > :10:49.his main task this evening if you like is to park the bus, avoid
:10:50. > :10:52.defeat and avoid giving Alex Salmond and opportunity to have a good
:10:53. > :10:55.evening and the momentum he would then be able to exploit as a result
:10:56. > :11:03.of that. For Alistair Darling in some ways, it is the worse it is the
:11:04. > :11:06.better. Where is Alex Salmond obviously needs a clear`cut victory
:11:07. > :11:10.I think tonight, if these debates are to change anything in a
:11:11. > :11:14.fundamental way that Alex Salmond really does need that. That evoke a
:11:15. > :11:17.point. Alex Allan has the pressure on him to move things although
:11:18. > :11:22.expectations have been lowered. Of course they have. I was suggesting
:11:23. > :11:27.in another context, another place this week that the first win had
:11:28. > :11:30.supposedly been Real Madrid against Wigan athletic and somehow Wigan
:11:31. > :11:36.athletic managed to score first against all expectations. I think
:11:37. > :11:38.tonight, the debate was about technical matters. I know currency
:11:39. > :11:42.is a big issue in the media and a big issue of Alistair Darling and a
:11:43. > :11:46.big issue for Alex Salmond to address but that cap the ranch with
:11:47. > :11:49.people at home, I think what they are desperate for is some sense of
:11:50. > :11:53.vision, some sense of what tomorrow's Scotland could be like
:11:54. > :11:57.with a yes vote. Just as importantly what tomorrow's Scotland will be
:11:58. > :12:02.like if there is a no vote. I think more vision and less nitty`gritty
:12:03. > :12:06.would be important. I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I suspect
:12:07. > :12:10.even if it costs Scotland money you would be in favour of going it
:12:11. > :12:13.alone? In other words the nitty`gritty issues don't count many
:12:14. > :12:18.people who are strongly yes or strongly now? Obviously nobly wants
:12:19. > :12:21.to pay more taxes and be insecure but I don't honestly believe that
:12:22. > :12:24.will be the case. I'm not voting yes because I think Scotland will be a
:12:25. > :12:30.more or less prosperous country although I happen to think it will
:12:31. > :12:34.be perfectly prosperous. For me it is quintessentially about values,
:12:35. > :12:37.about the kind of society we want to build and maintain. For me,
:12:38. > :12:42.everything down south has gone very far to the right, we have the
:12:43. > :12:47.prospect of being hauled out of Europe if the Tories have their way
:12:48. > :12:51.in 2017. We have the prospect of things becoming even more austere. I
:12:52. > :12:55.was interviewing an economist today at the Edinburgh book Festival who
:12:56. > :12:59.thinks that this current growth in the economy is a bit of a dead cat
:13:00. > :13:02.bounce and we shouldn't get too excited about it. I don't think the
:13:03. > :13:07.UK in the current hands of the current coalition has much going for
:13:08. > :13:15.it and there is every chance that these hands will still be on the
:13:16. > :13:18.tiller after the election. It is a bit about values isn't it? The
:13:19. > :13:21.cliche is usually heads and hearts but there was a poll done which
:13:22. > :13:25.suggested if you were ?500 better off would you vote one way or
:13:26. > :13:27.another, some people said yes but really when you ask people that's
:13:28. > :13:36.not how they are thinking. They are much more of emotional and values
:13:37. > :13:40.rather than 500 quid here or there. If Scotland really were as left wing
:13:41. > :13:42.country as its self regarding left wing media establishment and
:13:43. > :13:46.intelligence earlier would have you believe then you would expect Alex
:13:47. > :13:49.Salmond and the Nationalists to be winning this race comfortable but it
:13:50. > :13:52.isn't true so they are not. Nationalists haven't won the
:13:53. > :13:54.economic argument. Polls consistently suggest that most
:13:55. > :14:02.people expect that the economy overall would be worse, weaker after
:14:03. > :14:05.independence and by an overwhelming majority they think their personal
:14:06. > :14:09.circumstances would be drastically worse after independence. But in
:14:10. > :14:12.those terms, the surprise is in so much that the Nationalists appear at
:14:13. > :14:16.present to be losing but that they are doing as well as they are. That
:14:17. > :14:19.is in part because the idea of Scotland is an immensely powerful
:14:20. > :14:24.one. There are plenty of people who would vote willingly for
:14:25. > :14:27.independence, perhaps a fifth of the electorate, regardless of the
:14:28. > :14:31.consequences. Those are the true believers, those who vote SNP in
:14:32. > :14:35.each and every election. Equally there are of course perhaps about
:14:36. > :14:39.15`20% of the electorate who would always vote no regardless of any
:14:40. > :14:42.economic benefit that came from independence because they feel
:14:43. > :14:46.British and they think yes, this is a question of identity. Neither side
:14:47. > :14:48.really wants to address that during the campaign for their different
:14:49. > :14:53.reasons. The Nationalists have been reluctant to address a politics of
:14:54. > :14:59.identity because it could be tarred as a neo` Jacobite Bonnie Prince
:15:00. > :15:04.Charlie lost cause type thing and they dislike the associations with
:15:05. > :15:06.that. It tends to be pundits and commentators from south of the
:15:07. > :15:12.border who bring up Braveheart and William Wallace rather than members
:15:13. > :15:18.of the SNP. Equally, Unionists would be disinclined to wrap themselves in
:15:19. > :15:23.the union flag. Before you get carried away! Before either others
:15:24. > :15:26.do, I know you want to come in and say more but we are going to go over
:15:27. > :15:28.to Aberdeen for a second before we do that because this is a very
:15:29. > :15:32.diverse country, it's not just the central belt, not just people in
:15:33. > :15:35.Glasgow and the breath, it is every where from Shetland the Western
:15:36. > :15:42.Isles and also Aberdeen which is where the oil comes in. Let's go to
:15:43. > :15:45.Kevin who is there now. Yes indeed. We have gathered a group of people
:15:46. > :15:48.together in this room who are currently watching the Edinburgh
:15:49. > :15:52.Tatsu on BBC1 Scotland and of course from half past eight they will be
:15:53. > :15:57.seeing the debate on here, BBC Two of course, in the rest of the UK.
:15:58. > :16:01.Nine people in this room whose views we are canvassing, a selection of
:16:02. > :16:05.yes, no and undecided people among the three in front of us just now we
:16:06. > :16:09.have Gillian Martin on the right and who is a yes vote, Stewart in the
:16:10. > :16:16.middle who is a no vote and David who is undecided. what are you
:16:17. > :16:18.looking to get out of the debate? I'm looking for the debate not
:16:19. > :16:23.looking to get out of the debate? I'm looking for the debate not to be
:16:24. > :16:26.about just the European Union, the currency, I'm looking for it to put
:16:27. > :16:30.forward the reasons we've got a massive opportunity for
:16:31. > :16:34.independence, I'm hoping Alex Salmond will be looking at the
:16:35. > :16:40.social side of things, the family, what's in it for mothers, families,
:16:41. > :16:43.fathers, children, and less about the money and the administration of
:16:44. > :16:49.a transitional period, which seems to be what the debate is stuck on.
:16:50. > :16:53.What about performance? Does his performance matter and what was your
:16:54. > :16:57.view of his performance? The message is far more important to me than the
:16:58. > :17:02.performance. I think people are a little bit too obsessed with two
:17:03. > :17:06.gets the rectory, I don't think anybody necessarily needs to. I
:17:07. > :17:11.think the whole point should be making up your mind rather than it
:17:12. > :17:18.being a boxing match. `` who get the victory. I think most people find
:17:19. > :17:22.that annoying. Stewart, you voting `` you are voting no. Do you agree
:17:23. > :17:30.with that? Will Alistair Darling's performance be under the scrutiny? I
:17:31. > :17:33.agree with what was said, I am open to facts being manipulated by both
:17:34. > :17:37.sides and I would like Alistair Darling to describe why we should
:17:38. > :17:42.stay in the UK, what the benefits are, without getting bogged down in
:17:43. > :17:48.data that is not relevant to the debate. I think it is you guys in
:17:49. > :17:53.the media looking for a killer blow. Most people want to listen to
:17:54. > :17:56.a sensible debate. Most of the information has already been put out
:17:57. > :18:00.there by both sides so do you anticipate anything new and
:18:01. > :18:05.significant will come out of it? One of the two sides could drop a
:18:06. > :18:11.clanger and that will be the headline. I'm actually more
:18:12. > :18:17.interested in what the questions are from the audience tonight than from
:18:18. > :18:21.Alex Salmond. Brief question to David. You are undecided. Wood
:18:22. > :18:27.dropping Clangers make a difference to you? I don't think so. I don't
:18:28. > :18:33.think mistakes make the difference. One of the things I really like is
:18:34. > :18:38.self`determination as an idea but I'm not in favour of dividing
:18:39. > :18:43.countries into smaller bits. If there was any information came out
:18:44. > :18:48.about what sort of self`determination maximum
:18:49. > :18:53.devolution could provide, that would be interesting to me. I will be
:18:54. > :18:58.watching your reactions throughout the debate. Thank you for speaking
:18:59. > :19:04.to us. We've got nine people in this room. We'll be hearing from them
:19:05. > :19:09.through this night. This will be going off in the next 45 minutes and
:19:10. > :19:11.that is when the debate begins and everybody will be not watching the
:19:12. > :19:21.tattooed but the debate between Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond.
:19:22. > :19:28.Thank you. People all over Scotland do have a vote, people in the rest
:19:29. > :19:34.of the United Kingdom are affected by this but do not have a say. They
:19:35. > :19:37.can voice their opinions, because there may be some movements to
:19:38. > :19:40.reordering relationships up and down these islands as a result of
:19:41. > :19:53.whatever happens on September the 18th. Let's hear from York. This is
:19:54. > :19:58.a public house in the centre of York. All day we've been getting
:19:59. > :20:06.opinions of Yorkshire folk. What do they think about what is happening
:20:07. > :20:09.north of the border? Some themes are emerging. We spoke to the leader of
:20:10. > :20:14.York Council and he was comparing Scotland and Wales to Yorkshire,
:20:15. > :20:19.saying this is a region that demands more exposure. He said Yorkshire and
:20:20. > :20:25.the Humber have a population of around 5 million people the same
:20:26. > :20:30.that live in Scotland. Why could Yorkshire not have a stronger voice
:20:31. > :20:41.in the world? To attract investment, to boost the economy.
:20:42. > :20:50.They've also spoken to ex`patriots `` expatriates, one who is south of
:20:51. > :20:54.the border. Because she is not resident in Scotland she has not got
:20:55. > :20:58.a vote but she strongly believes the union is stronger together, she
:20:59. > :21:02.wanted to have her saying she reeled off a list of questions. If there is
:21:03. > :21:07.Scottish independence, what does it mean for her? Does she have to go
:21:08. > :21:13.back to Scotland? She says the anthers are unknown. Here in the pub
:21:14. > :21:19.we spoke to a couple who lived in Carlisle. They said if there is
:21:20. > :21:25.independence, what happens to the Scottish workers who travelled south
:21:26. > :21:28.to work in Carlisle? They mentioned free prescriptions, tuition fees,
:21:29. > :21:34.these are the issues that mean something to them. These are issues
:21:35. > :21:37.they have plenty of questions on. The role of England and its place in
:21:38. > :21:41.the union at the debate goes north of the border, many here have got
:21:42. > :21:49.questions about what it means for them.
:21:50. > :22:02.Thank you. When we left it to hear from Aberdeen, you were getting
:22:03. > :22:05.angry. Would you like to explain? I was getting irritated by the
:22:06. > :22:10.conflation of the yes cause and the SNP and Alex Salmond. It has been a
:22:11. > :22:15.constant tactic of the Better Together campaign to hang the
:22:16. > :22:20.question of Scottish independence on one man and one party. I have been
:22:21. > :22:26.very promiscuous with my vote over the years. It is not about
:22:27. > :22:31.nationalism, not about politicians, it is about Scotland's future. If we
:22:32. > :22:34.start thinking in these terms rather than party terms, we get into a
:22:35. > :22:40.territory where there is a vast territory where there is a vast
:22:41. > :22:44.swathe of Scotland, about 37% of Labour voters are planning to vote
:22:45. > :22:52.yes and that is because they see a more equitable government in
:22:53. > :22:57.Scotland than they believe are being pursued in London. It is not just
:22:58. > :23:01.about Alex Salmond, and not just the SNP, it is about a vision of
:23:02. > :23:05.Scotland, one vision of Scotland which is positive for me, and the
:23:06. > :23:10.coalition view is negative. Other people do not share that view. But
:23:11. > :23:16.we must get away from the idea that it is a 1`party argument. Here we
:23:17. > :23:18.have it in a nutshell, the remarkable statement that the
:23:19. > :23:23.independence debate is not about Alex Salmond but it is about David
:23:24. > :23:27.Cameron, it is not about Nicola Sturgeon but it is about George
:23:28. > :23:37.Osborne. Oh dear people personalised the First Minister, the leader of
:23:38. > :23:40.the SNP... Apparently Scotland's vision of its principles and values
:23:41. > :23:47.are so different from those in England. There is no polling
:23:48. > :23:54.evidence. I think Alex Salmond is arriving. Let's just see if we can
:23:55. > :24:00.see him walking into the back of the hall. Sorry to stop you in full
:24:01. > :24:03.flow. He was here earlier having a good look around, seeing how the
:24:04. > :24:10.mechanics will work. Looking at the podium and talking to advisers. He's
:24:11. > :24:15.got some supporters here tonight. The Better Together campaign were
:24:16. > :24:25.more conspicuous by their absence. Not many people turning up.
:24:26. > :24:31.Alex Salmond walking into the building, hoping to be the first
:24:32. > :24:35.Prime Minister of an independent Scotland. In some ways, Ruth is
:24:36. > :24:40.right, it is about something bigger and better than the SNP, but they
:24:41. > :24:44.are the government driving it, it is the SNP that published the 600 page
:24:45. > :24:54.White Paper, at least half of which is an SNP manifesto. It is Alex
:24:55. > :25:01.Salmond who has taken to saying the SNP policy represents the sovereign
:25:02. > :25:05.will of the Scottish people. To complain that we are making it about
:25:06. > :25:11.Alex Salmond seems a little disingenuous when he happens to do
:25:12. > :25:16.so himself. A country coming to independence led by one person would
:25:17. > :25:21.not have him as leader for a considerable time, so it is about
:25:22. > :25:26.him. Only in the short term. This is not for Christmas, it is forever.
:25:27. > :25:31.Alex Salmond me or may not be the First Minister at the next Scottish
:25:32. > :25:36.election, but it's not about that. It is bizarre. We have Alex saying,
:25:37. > :25:41.oh dear they produce a 600 page document as if they are in charge,
:25:42. > :25:47.meanwhile we don't have a couple `` more than a couple of leaflets from
:25:48. > :25:47.Better Together. `` how dare they. When people
:25:48. > :25:52.Better Together. `` how dare they. When publish it, they say, we don't
:25:53. > :25:55.mean that kind of information. Some people in Aberdeen said they don't
:25:56. > :26:00.care who wins or loses the debate, they want more information on which
:26:01. > :26:05.to make up our minds. That's a very feeble copout, if viewers feel that
:26:06. > :26:09.way they should look at themselves, because there is no shortage of
:26:10. > :26:17.information. The problem is there are no facts. You have two claims,
:26:18. > :26:20.experts saying conflicting things and in that sense voters are left in
:26:21. > :26:26.the middle wondering who to believe but really all you have to guide you
:26:27. > :26:32.is your judgement. Tonight's debate is a war of experts, my expert knows
:26:33. > :26:39.more than your expert. That will help voters. Let's get a flavour of
:26:40. > :26:42.what happened last time. Both men landed a few punches and the one
:26:43. > :26:49.which many people have referred to was the question of the pound. Any
:26:50. > :26:56.eight`year`old can tell you the flag of a country, the name of the
:26:57. > :27:04.country and the currency. You cannot tell us what currency we will have.
:27:05. > :27:09.I can. Alistair, we will take the pound because it belongs to Scotland
:27:10. > :27:18.as much as it belongs to England. It is our pound as well as your pound.
:27:19. > :27:22.Even Gordon Brown has said, you shall not have the pound. It is
:27:23. > :27:26.counter`productive for your campaign. Why can't we go back to
:27:27. > :27:29.the Alistair Darling of last year saying it was logical and desirable
:27:30. > :27:33.in the interests of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom to keep
:27:34. > :27:40.the pound after independence? Logical and desirable. That was one
:27:41. > :27:45.of the big blows landed three weeks ago. This is the other one, the
:27:46. > :27:51.question of whether it could be independent. Your own figures say we
:27:52. > :27:55.would have a much bigger deficit at the time we want independence than
:27:56. > :28:00.the rest of the UK and that would mean some difficult decisions. It is
:28:01. > :28:06.quite simple. Do you agree with David Cameron or not? Do you agree
:28:07. > :28:13.with David Cameron or not? Do you agree with David Cameron? And so
:28:14. > :28:17.Darling could have got out of that Darling could have got out of that
:28:18. > :28:21.simply by saying of course Scotland could be a successful independent
:28:22. > :28:25.country. Most Scots believe it, whether they think it can happen.
:28:26. > :28:31.The sensible thing would have been to tell the truth, which would also
:28:32. > :28:35.be truthful, of course Scotland is feasible. It would be a pretty bad
:28:36. > :28:41.reflection of 300 years of union if it was not. I don't understand why
:28:42. > :28:45.he was so reluctant to agree to that except that he had this paranoia
:28:46. > :28:47.about being tied to the Conservatives, so that if David
:28:48. > :28:55.Cameron agrees tomorrow is Wednesday, Alistair Darling must say
:28:56. > :28:59.it is Tuesday. The SNP are very cleverly wanting to tie them
:29:00. > :29:03.together. Otherwise I don't see why he didn't tell the truth. Knowing
:29:04. > :29:08.which state is take me back to the other point, facts are difficult to
:29:09. > :29:19.get that, had they? There are lots of opinions about. The first thing
:29:20. > :29:22.to say having watched these clips is two men in suits shouting at each
:29:23. > :29:26.other is not going to greatly add to the sum of human knowledge. It is
:29:27. > :29:34.difficult to get what Scotland will be like for any degree of certainty.
:29:35. > :29:41.Any Chancellor of the Exchequer will not tell you what is in their budget
:29:42. > :29:44.next March. It is a guessing game for everybody. We know that some
:29:45. > :29:48.things are true, Scotland is reckoned to be the 14th most
:29:49. > :29:53.prosperous country as opposed to the 18th in the UK. We know that the
:29:54. > :30:00.credit rating could be triple`A. We know that we have huge resources on
:30:01. > :30:07.which to be a prosperous country, not all oil, there are many
:30:08. > :30:14.industries buoyant in Scotland. When people talk about Scotland being
:30:15. > :30:18.prosperous it is estimation. The 14th richest country in the world is
:30:19. > :30:29.a slippery statistic, referring to GDP. Alaska tops the list of US
:30:30. > :30:35.states but nobody thinks those are the best states in the United States
:30:36. > :30:39.to live in. It is slightly dubious. Of course, long`term forecasts are
:30:40. > :30:40.difficult, but it is the Nationalists who launched a project
:30:41. > :30:42.to difficult, but it is the
:30:43. > :30:46.Nationalists tell us everything we like it would remain and nothing we
:30:47. > :30:51.did not like would stay. You're watching BBC News from Glasgow on
:30:52. > :31:05.the Scottish independence referendum debate. Good evening. It's eight
:31:06. > :31:10.o'clock. This is one of the great landmarks of this great city.
:31:11. > :31:14.Tonight the big debate, the second of two debates between Alistair
:31:15. > :31:22.Darling and Alex Salmond. Alistair Darling arrived first. He has 90
:31:23. > :31:26.minutes or so to argue that we are better together in the United
:31:27. > :31:33.Kingdom. He laid some blows up the last debate on the question of the
:31:34. > :31:37.pound. Most of those connected to the campaign think he will attempt
:31:38. > :31:41.to raise similar demands and other doubts about the economic
:31:42. > :31:45.performance. Alex Salmond arrived more recently. He had a good
:31:46. > :31:52.around, checking the podium and the mechanics of the TV studio. He has
:31:53. > :31:56.90 minutes to turn the polls around and argue for his dream which is
:31:57. > :32:00.that of an independent Scotland which he has been dedicated to since
:32:01. > :32:08.he was in his early 20s and a student at university. A lot is at
:32:09. > :32:15.stake for the entire country. And the United Kingdom as well. What is
:32:16. > :32:21.at stake. Once the Scottish actor nominated them they couldn't not
:32:22. > :32:25.take the ice bucket challenge. Alistair Darling was unflappable as
:32:26. > :32:33.ever. Alex Salmond characteristically
:32:34. > :32:38.Glasgow 's magnificent Kelvingrove Museum will host the second TV and
:32:39. > :32:43.counter and this time he was across the UK can watch live. Last time
:32:44. > :32:47.Alistair Darling attacked Alex Salmond on the question of which
:32:48. > :32:54.currency they would use. Supporters say is and is first minute still has
:32:55. > :32:58.no answer to most vital question. What people want are not just quick
:32:59. > :33:04.one`liners but real answers about the currency, about funding for
:33:05. > :33:09.Scotland, the future of our jobs and hospitals. If you doesn't deliver he
:33:10. > :33:13.will get a negative response. Alex Salmond supporters want a more
:33:14. > :33:17.robust performance tonight, and they expect him to challenge Alistair
:33:18. > :33:22.Darling on what they see as Scotland's uncertain future inside
:33:23. > :33:26.the union. To try to put momentum back into the yes campaign Alex
:33:27. > :33:29.Salmond will have to try to turn the tables forcing Alistair Darling on
:33:30. > :33:33.the defensive. We will hear a lot from Alex Salmond on what he sees as
:33:34. > :33:41.the consequences for Scotland's public services, especially the NHS.
:33:42. > :33:45.I'm sure that the First Minister is going to set out the positive case
:33:46. > :33:48.for Scottish independence. Of course it's important to point out how
:33:49. > :33:55.badly we been let down by Westminster and the threats that lie
:33:56. > :33:59.down the road. The polls still put the anti`independence campaign
:34:00. > :34:02.ahead, but that lead narrowed after the last TV debate despite Alistair
:34:03. > :34:09.Darling's strong performance. Will tonight be the pivot on which the
:34:10. > :34:10.campaign will turn? It's perhaps the most important 90 minutes in this
:34:11. > :34:19.long battle. One of the interesting things about
:34:20. > :34:24.this campaign and about the vote in three weeks time is that voters as
:34:25. > :34:27.young as 16 will get a chance to vote on an issue which has been
:34:28. > :34:34.bedevilling many people in Scotland for many years. To find out what
:34:35. > :34:41.some of the younger voters are thinking let's go to the media room.
:34:42. > :34:46.Three of those younger voters who are part of what is called
:34:47. > :34:51.generation 2014 are here in the media room along with 40 or 50
:34:52. > :34:57.Scottish journalists and members of the political parties who are giving
:34:58. > :35:09.their views ahead of the debate to the assembled hacks. With me as
:35:10. > :35:11.Lewis Munro, Sarah Lang and Nathan. Which way are you going to vote?
:35:12. > :35:18.Have you moved from one position to the other? I've looked into both
:35:19. > :35:23.science and I've decided to vote yes. Did you watch the first debate?
:35:24. > :35:27.I was disappointed and thought Alex Salmond could have fought for our
:35:28. > :35:33.side a bit more. I'm hoping that tonight he will really go for it and
:35:34. > :35:37.show them what he can do. You say you are disappointed that he could
:35:38. > :35:43.have fought your corner more. What do you mean? Normally he has a bit
:35:44. > :35:48.more months. Maybe he was listening to people telling him not to be so
:35:49. > :35:57.forward. I hope you will show his passion. You say you were undecided.
:35:58. > :36:01.Why is that? Neither campaign really sways me. I've been undecided for
:36:02. > :36:08.quite some time. I was leading to know originally. Alex Salmond fight
:36:09. > :36:15.very well for his cause and didn't show as much about his actual
:36:16. > :36:19.plans. Tonight we might find out what he has planned. Are there
:36:20. > :36:27.issues you want to hear more about in particular mark? I want to hear
:36:28. > :36:42.about tuition fees and EU membership. You have moved from
:36:43. > :36:51.undecided to no. It's a lack of answers from Alex Salmond. I'm quite
:36:52. > :36:58.a big fan of the union. There was nothing in particular making me want
:36:59. > :37:04.to vote yes. Did these debates help? And they are helpful for
:37:05. > :37:13.undecided people. To see them put in the same places helpful. You have
:37:14. > :37:20.got well`informed opinions. What's going on amongst your school
:37:21. > :37:29.friends, is being debated very much? It's being debated. It's those
:37:30. > :37:33.who are well informed that aren't saying much about it. In general
:37:34. > :37:41.they are talking about what they see on the news. Many people are
:37:42. > :37:47.researching a bit. It will be interesting because this is
:37:48. > :37:53.televised. Thank you very much. Enjoy the debate. You will be
:37:54. > :37:57.watching closely for the next couple of hours. It's not just here in the
:37:58. > :38:01.media room where people will be watching, it's not just a debate
:38:02. > :38:04.that will be watched closely in Scotland that this is a debate that
:38:05. > :38:15.will be watched across the UK. It certainly will be. Thank you.
:38:16. > :38:20.Those were the views of three of our younger voters. An assessment of
:38:21. > :38:25.where the Scottish electorate appears to be I'm joined by
:38:26. > :38:29.Professor John Curtis of Strathclyde University. What's going on in the
:38:30. > :38:36.polls as they haven't moved. They haven't moved a great deal. The Yes
:38:37. > :38:43.Campaign side made progress in the winter. Once you took out the don't
:38:44. > :38:49.knows it went up to 43%. Since then very little has changed. You take
:38:50. > :38:54.the average of the last half dozen polls, it still 43%. The truth is
:38:55. > :39:00.given what happened three weeks ago with the first leaders debate it
:39:01. > :39:04.comes as a bit of a relief to the Yes Campaign. It was felt Alex
:39:05. > :39:10.Salmond lost the debate with the first opinion poll which came out
:39:11. > :39:19.suggested that Yes Campaign support went down. Although Alex Salmond is
:39:20. > :39:25.thought to have lost the first debate, it looks like it did not do
:39:26. > :39:31.damage to the yes side tally. If the polls are to be believed the Yes
:39:32. > :39:35.Campaign side is still behind. He badly needs to win this debate. He
:39:36. > :39:38.needs to win it in such a way that it doesn't simply suggest that he
:39:39. > :39:45.got the better of Mr Darling that actually persuades them that they
:39:46. > :39:52.should vote yes. I assume Mr Darling can afford to sit tight. He doesn't
:39:53. > :39:59.have to give away many goals. His job is to hang on to what he's gone.
:40:00. > :40:04.He needs to avoid losing, certainly on any of the significant arguments.
:40:05. > :40:07.So long as he emerges not having lost any ground he will be happy
:40:08. > :40:14.because he will believe that he is sufficiently far ahead. What looks
:40:15. > :40:21.like the last significant opportunity for the Yes Campaign
:40:22. > :40:29.side to narrow the polls. I'm puzzled by who doesn't know. I've
:40:30. > :40:35.met people who are firmly of one opinion but certainly no one who
:40:36. > :40:42.doesn't care. The people who say don't know seem to change their
:40:43. > :40:46.mind. You are correct. Only 15% of people genuinely don't know. They
:40:47. > :40:51.don't have an idea which way they will vote. Another body of people,
:40:52. > :40:55.twice as big who say to the pollsters that they've got an idea
:40:56. > :41:01.what they will do the time might change my mind. To that extent the
:41:02. > :41:06.job tonight of both leaders isn't just to appeal to a group of people
:41:07. > :41:11.who haven't made up their mind, they will try to persuade people who've
:41:12. > :41:14.got an inclination of what they are going to do to actually do something
:41:15. > :41:18.different. The task that faces them is a tough one because they aren't
:41:19. > :41:23.talking to an electric doesn't have much idea what they will do. Most
:41:24. > :41:27.people watching will have an idea of what they are going to do and many
:41:28. > :41:37.will be determined partisans who will not change their minds. We know
:41:38. > :41:41.the famous Kennedy, Nixon debate. Do you think people given that this is
:41:42. > :41:47.also about national sentiment, it may be about money or oil or the NHS
:41:48. > :41:50.and it's also about how you feel. I think this is a referendum where it
:41:51. > :42:01.has always looked difficult for either side to move the numbers. The
:42:02. > :42:04.polls have painted a picture of remarkable stability. The lesson of
:42:05. > :42:09.the first debate is even when one person is thought to have one, it
:42:10. > :42:13.did not translate into changing people 's minds. We have to remember
:42:14. > :42:22.that this hasn't just been going on over the last year. This is a debate
:42:23. > :42:29.that's been going on for at least 40 years. There is one thing that makes
:42:30. > :42:34.it unique. It's encouraging for anyone who believes we should have a
:42:35. > :42:40.civil society and people should be engaged in the way our country is
:42:41. > :42:47.going. I've talked to politicians of all sorts who say people want to
:42:48. > :42:54.open the doors. It's a valuable thing to take away. Inside the
:42:55. > :42:58.United Kingdom we are going to settle what is politically one of
:42:59. > :43:04.the most difficult disputes to settle often leads to armed
:43:05. > :43:10.conflict, whether part of the state... Apparently we will settle
:43:11. > :43:15.this peacefully and critically. In so doing it looks like the turnout
:43:16. > :43:19.will be high. People in Scotland except they aren't being to choose
:43:20. > :43:27.between Tweedledee and Tweedledum for the next five years. It's an
:43:28. > :43:30.important choice. Not all want the choice forced upon them, but faced
:43:31. > :43:36.with the choice it looks like the voters of Scotland agree they will
:43:37. > :43:43.need to turn up and in their hands will live the future of this
:43:44. > :43:47.country. Thank you. Thus I was saying earlier, this is a very
:43:48. > :43:52.diverse country from this central belt with all the industry
:43:53. > :43:56.associated with bars: Edinburgh to the islands, Shetland and also to
:43:57. > :44:04.We are in a hotel in the city. Kevin.
:44:05. > :44:12.We are in a hotel in the city. Around me nine people who represent
:44:13. > :44:20.yes voters and no voters and those who haven't decided where they will
:44:21. > :44:25.put their cross. Tonight might be the deciding moment for those people
:44:26. > :44:32.who've yet to make the decision. Three people to speak to hear.
:44:33. > :44:37.Howard, you are a yes vote. What are you hoping to get out of tonight?
:44:38. > :44:42.Something a bit less of ping`pong than we head in the last debate. I
:44:43. > :44:50.don't think the format was conducive to a good debate. It concentrated
:44:51. > :44:52.too much on ping`pong, back and forwards on issues that really
:44:53. > :44:59.aren't essential to the big question. What are the key issues
:45:00. > :45:04.for you? Democratic accountability. I want a government that is close
:45:05. > :45:09.enough to need to kick them up the backside if they need it. The issue
:45:10. > :45:16.with the health service is important. More than just discussing
:45:17. > :45:20.funding for the health service the main issue is the privatisation down
:45:21. > :45:25.south and the effect friends Atlantic trade and investment act
:45:26. > :45:35.will have on that. `` transatlantic investment. Sitting next to you is
:45:36. > :45:40.Robin, a no voter. What will tonight 's debate produce for you, you
:45:41. > :45:46.hope? Something more substantive than what we've seen in the past. No
:45:47. > :45:51.finger wagging but actual answers or steps towards an answer. It just
:45:52. > :45:58.seems to be a you said he said argument. No semblance of policy or
:45:59. > :46:08.what happen in the event of a yes vote or no vote. Do you think that
:46:09. > :46:15.will happen? Probably not. We also have an undecided voter, James. You
:46:16. > :46:18.are one of the opinions that matters for the two politicians at the
:46:19. > :46:22.podium tonight, because if anyone will have their votes wait, it will
:46:23. > :46:30.be you. What will you be looking out for? I am looking forward to hearing
:46:31. > :46:34.about the plan on currency. It is one of the things that if there is
:46:35. > :46:38.no contingency, I will be surprised. I'm looking forward to hearing about
:46:39. > :46:41.what I am voting for with the no vote, so what is the future of
:46:42. > :46:49.Scotland to look like with the no vote and Better Together saying what
:46:50. > :46:54.that is. Do you think you will make a decision tonight? This is the last
:46:55. > :46:59.of these debates between the two leaders. At the moment, I am
:47:00. > :47:03.balancing all kinds of risks and opportunities on both sides. I think
:47:04. > :47:12.it may come down to the last one. It is almost how I feel on the day.
:47:13. > :47:18.Robin, you are living in the big oil city, and that is big on the agenda
:47:19. > :47:21.for the last week. What are you hoping will come out of tonight
:47:22. > :47:27.relating to oil? I don't really know. I live in an oil city, and I
:47:28. > :47:32.don't feel the effects of oil. I work in the public sector. Like a
:47:33. > :47:39.lot of people who live in Aberdeen, it will be good to see the welfare
:47:40. > :47:44.side of things and the social impact for those of us in the vast majority
:47:45. > :47:51.not working in oil. Is oil the big issue for you? It is not a big
:47:52. > :47:54.issue, it is the icing on the cake. It has become a big issue because it
:47:55. > :48:00.has become one of the football is battered back and forwards, but in
:48:01. > :48:06.the bigger picture, it is a small portion of what is important. Thank
:48:07. > :48:10.you very much indeed for joining us. We are 12 minutes away from the
:48:11. > :48:16.start of the debate. All eyes are glued on BBC One Scotland, which is
:48:17. > :48:19.showing EastEnders at the moment. BBC Two throughout the rest of the
:48:20. > :48:27.UK is where you will see that debate begin at 8:30pm. Nine people will
:48:28. > :48:33.see her afterwards whether they change their votes or declare in any
:48:34. > :48:42.direction, but for the moment, this is the big drama. `` we will see her
:48:43. > :48:46.afterwards. Ruth and Alex are still with me. I was trying to engage John
:48:47. > :48:52.on the question of engagement, because at one `` it is one of the
:48:53. > :48:58.good things about this. We're having a discussion, and we may not agree,
:48:59. > :49:01.but we are engaged. I have been around Scotland in the last few
:49:02. > :49:08.weeks and months, and the extraordinary things is that whether
:49:09. > :49:12.it is a wet night or a dry night or a hot summer night, no matter what
:49:13. > :49:19.is on the television, people are going into town halls. You could not
:49:20. > :49:21.be on a tram or in a cab or any moving vehicle without people
:49:22. > :49:28.spontaneously combusting about the referendum. That says a lot about
:49:29. > :49:33.how politics has been revitalised by this debate, regardless or most of
:49:34. > :49:43.what happens. There has been a lot of banter. They have been workplace
:49:44. > :49:47.rights, and rows between families. It is sensible to be passionate, but
:49:48. > :49:52.the most striking and significant aspect of the campaign is how
:49:53. > :49:56.friendly and civilised it has been. People on both set a lot of stupid
:49:57. > :50:01.things, but that is to be expected in politics. These are people we are
:50:02. > :50:05.talking about. In general, it has been a good`tempered campaign. It
:50:06. > :50:09.has engaged an awful lot of people, many of them coming to politics for
:50:10. > :50:13.the first time or returning to political active in date and after
:50:14. > :50:19.is strange man. You have covered American elections, and this reminds
:50:20. > :50:22.me of something like the New Hampshire primary where you have
:50:23. > :50:27.town hall meeting after town hall meeting, and people say I'm not sure
:50:28. > :50:34.which candidate I will vote for in the primary because I have not met
:50:35. > :50:39.them yet. I don't want to stretch the comparison too far, but there is
:50:40. > :50:43.something similar happening here. The American comparison is
:50:44. > :50:46.worthwhile, because in decided voters alike independence in the
:50:47. > :50:52.United States. There are more of them could then people like to
:50:53. > :50:54.pretend. It is an interesting campaign, and we will be following
:50:55. > :51:02.every minute of it. You are watching BBC News.
:51:03. > :51:08.You are watching special coverage on BBC News of the Scotland
:51:09. > :51:12.independence referendum debate. It begins in a few minutes. We would
:51:13. > :51:18.like to welcome our viewers from around the world. We're here in the
:51:19. > :51:24.magnificent setting, the West End of Glasgow, at the Kelvingrove Art
:51:25. > :51:28.Gallery and Museum. It pulls in about 1 million visitors a year. Not
:51:29. > :51:32.so many there tonight. About a few hundred who will watch the debate,
:51:33. > :51:37.which may decide the future, not just of Scotland, but also the
:51:38. > :51:41.United Kingdom. For a sense of what is going on inside the hall, let's
:51:42. > :51:47.go over to my colleague, who joins us from the media room.
:51:48. > :51:54.Commonly known as the spin room, it is the assembled media. There are
:51:55. > :52:02.representatives of international media here as well, two of them
:52:03. > :52:09.joining us now. If I may start with you, is there much interest in
:52:10. > :52:15.Canada? It is interesting for us, because we had two referendums, one
:52:16. > :52:24.in 1980, and one in 1995 on independence. In both, the no side
:52:25. > :52:32.one. But the yes camp in the last vote, they got 99.5 `` 49.5%.
:52:33. > :52:35.Interesting in Canada, but what about the yes and no campaigns here?
:52:36. > :52:39.Have they been taking much advice from Canada? Bid Yes campaign from
:52:40. > :52:49.Scotland had a lot of advice from the same thing for the no campaign.
:52:50. > :53:03.What worked and what did not wear? A minister flew to
:53:04. > :53:07.of information has been exchanged? One thing for example is we had a
:53:08. > :53:14.lot of Canadians coming to Montreal to say that they've loved us. It
:53:15. > :53:17.seems it worked. The nose so `` the no side said it didn't work, so they
:53:18. > :53:31.told the yes campaign not to do that. There have been a lot of
:53:32. > :53:36.talks. The know, thanks formula, it was formulated in 1980. `` no
:53:37. > :53:49.thanks. The United Kingdom as a Eurosceptic. How does that play with
:53:50. > :53:55.your readers? Or Mac very well. A lot of our readers know Scotland
:53:56. > :54:00.from holidays, and there is widespread frustration and
:54:01. > :54:00.irritation in Germany and in Europe about the British government's
:54:01. > :54:09.stands on Europe. It is very exciting to see parts of the United
:54:10. > :54:15.Kingdom where Europe is seen as a basically good thing. That is
:54:16. > :54:21.surprising and exciting. And there are just 5 million people living in
:54:22. > :54:24.Scotland. Is there much interest in what is happening here? On a
:54:25. > :54:33.political level, Berlin and many other capitals in
:54:34. > :54:35.widespread ramifications of Scotland's independence. Is there a
:54:36. > :54:45.feeling of being nudged along by the UK Government? That would be the
:54:46. > :54:48.suspicion. If you look at Britain as a country, as a united country, it
:54:49. > :54:51.would a country, as a united country, a
:54:52. > :54:59.strategic implication if Scotland became independent. There are on a
:55:00. > :55:05.political level fears that Europe will lose its role in the world and
:55:06. > :55:12.become entangled in a never ending internal conflict. Interesting.
:55:13. > :55:16.Thank you both very much for that. You can see the journalists behind
:55:17. > :55:22.us. We have already seen members of some of the Unionist camp, numbers
:55:23. > :55:25.of the Labour Party, members of the Lib Dems, representatives of the
:55:26. > :55:31.SNP, or putting their case and of this debate, and we will no doubt
:55:32. > :55:37.see them afterwards as well. Indeed we will. The debate begins in
:55:38. > :55:43.just a few minutes, and I am joint by two distinguished Scottish
:55:44. > :55:45.writers and broadcasters. It was interesting, Alex, hearing the
:55:46. > :55:55.Canadian journalist talking about what happened with Quebec. They
:55:56. > :56:00.became the kind of never`ending campaign. Even if Alex Salmond loses
:56:01. > :56:10.all the SNP loses all the Yes campaign loses, it won't be over,
:56:11. > :56:16.will it? The Yes campaign boing `` won't stop campaigning. They form
:56:17. > :56:20.the Scottish Government after all. Attention will then focus to the
:56:21. > :56:23.promises made by the Unionist parties about the devolution of
:56:24. > :56:28.additional powers to Scotland, and there will be a debate about that.
:56:29. > :56:32.The notion of a never`ending referendum, that we will come back
:56:33. > :56:35.to this in ten years time, it strikes me as improbable, because
:56:36. > :56:39.you need a majority of the Scottish parliament to pass your referendum
:56:40. > :56:42.bill, and the electoral system of the Scottish parliament is designed
:56:43. > :56:48.to make achieving an overall majority extremely difficult. The
:56:49. > :56:52.SNP managed it, but that was things to a freak set of circumstances that
:56:53. > :56:56.we shouldn't expect to be repeated. The argument will not disappear, but
:56:57. > :57:02.the idea we would have another referendum in five or ten years is
:57:03. > :57:18.slightly implausible. I actually agree with Alex. I view that
:57:19. > :57:21.prospect with less... I think the question will disappear quickly off
:57:22. > :57:26.the radar. We have a UK general election. All of the party leaders
:57:27. > :57:31.will throw themselves into that. We have an in and out referendum for
:57:32. > :57:36.Europe a year later. I think Scotland will disappear. If there is
:57:37. > :57:45.no vote, you will go way down the judge agenda. `` wait on the agenda.
:57:46. > :57:49.If there is a yes vote, how do you view that? You are going to vote
:57:50. > :57:58.yes. Outside today you about the prospect? I am very excited. I say
:57:59. > :58:02.this as someone who loves England. I would like to see a social
:58:03. > :58:05.democratic Scotland doing a tank being in an equitable way,
:58:06. > :58:11.negotiating with its friends and neighbours in England equitable and
:58:12. > :58:14.to this temporary conundrum of how we change the constitution in
:58:15. > :58:20.Britain, and I think everything is possible. We have had a union for
:58:21. > :58:24.300 years. We have had not a union for longer than that. We keep
:58:25. > :58:29.talking in Scotland about the Scandinavian example, about how well
:58:30. > :58:36.they do these things. Norway breaking off, for example. Norway
:58:37. > :58:41.and Sweden were in a close union. They are still Scandinavia. They
:58:42. > :58:48.don't say, I am not Scandinavia. But no one will rush to join up again.
:58:49. > :58:51.The question Alistair Darling had difficulty with in the first debate
:58:52. > :58:55.was whether Scotland could be a successful independent country. Even
:58:56. > :59:02.though you would vote no, you think it could be. Of course it could be.
:59:03. > :59:07.There is nothing genetic about the Scots, we are quite capable of
:59:08. > :59:13.running our own country. It would not be a disaster. That is a
:59:14. > :59:18.preposterous notion. It is somewhat insulting. I don't think
:59:19. > :59:21.independence has to be a disaster. I think, ultimately, this is a
:59:22. > :59:25.question of something you mentioned earlier, which is feelings and
:59:26. > :59:28.belonging in committee. This is where the Scandinavian example
:59:29. > :59:34.breaks down. I don't pick if you ask someone in Norway, what nationality
:59:35. > :59:38.are you, they are not going to say I am Norwegian and Scandinavian. If
:59:39. > :59:44.you ask some one in Scotland, a lot of people will say I'm Scottish and
:59:45. > :59:48.British. Ruth disagrees, but they feel a part of their identity is
:59:49. > :59:51.threatened by independence, and they feel something would be lost. Just
:59:52. > :59:56.as I'm quite happy to admit something was lost on the day of the
:59:57. > :00:00.act of union being signed, the bells at Saint Giles Cathedral rang out
:00:01. > :00:06.that morning to the tune of how can I be sad on my wedding day?
:00:07. > :00:10.Similarly, on the day of independence, where it happen, there
:00:11. > :00:16.would be a lot of people wondering, why aren't I happy on the day of my
:00:17. > :00:23.divorce? What you come to my party, Alex? It will be a splendid party.
:00:24. > :00:30.One of you will be celebrating more. There has been a lot of talk about
:00:31. > :00:33.the bitterness, about the trolls, but I have found this a civilised
:00:34. > :00:37.and engaging argument. I don't think there would be a huge amount of
:00:38. > :00:41.disappointment on one side of the other, I directed there would be a
:00:42. > :00:47.huge amount of bitterness. Let's find out what will happen in this
:00:48. > :00:51.man is a building behind me. The debate is about to be chaired by
:00:52. > :00:56.Glen Campbell. The two men that may hold the future of Scotland and the
:00:57. > :01:05.UK in their hands are about to engage.
:01:06. > :01:10.Scotland's future. With the eyes of the world watching as the
:01:11. > :01:12.independence referendum edges ever closer, welcome to Glasgow for
:01:13. > :01:17.Scotland decides.