Salmond versus Darling

:00:00. > :00:08.It's the vote that will decide Scotland's future.

:00:09. > :00:13.With the eyes of the world watching, as the independence referendum

:00:14. > :00:16.edges ever closer, welcome to Glasgow for Scotland Decides:

:00:17. > :01:02.Hello and welcome to the magnificent Kelvingrove Art Gallery and Museum

:01:03. > :01:06.in Glasgow, home to one of Europe's finest collections. As the

:01:07. > :01:09.As the independence referendum campaign enters its final stages,

:01:10. > :01:12.we've brought together two of the biggest names in Scottish politics

:01:13. > :01:38.Making the case for a Yes vote - the First Minister of Scotland,

:01:39. > :01:40.Alex Salmond which leads the SNP, which has been

:01:41. > :01:42.campaigning for independence for 80 years.

:01:43. > :01:45.Making the case for a No vote - the former Labour Chancellor, Alistair

:01:46. > :01:47.Darling, who leads the Better Together campaign to keep Scotland

:01:48. > :01:51.in the United Kingdom. It's only the second time these two men have gone

:01:52. > :01:55.head to head in what has been a long campaign. They do so, on the day the

:01:56. > :01:58.first postal ballots were sent out. For almost one in five Scottish

:01:59. > :02:01.voters, this is the eve of poll. In the next 90 minutes, our guests will

:02:02. > :02:04.face questions from members of our audience, from me and from each

:02:05. > :02:07.other. I'll explain more about that in a moment. But first, there's an

:02:08. > :02:10.opportunity for both men to make short opening statements. Alex

:02:11. > :02:13.Salmond won a coin toss and has chosen to go first. Mr Salmond, you

:02:14. > :02:21.Ladies and gentleman, this is an extraordinary time for us all. The

:02:22. > :02:26.eyes of the world are focussed on Scotland. Twice before in Scotland

:02:27. > :02:32.in recent history, we've stood at the cross-roads. In 1979, we didn't

:02:33. > :02:37.get the Parliament we voted for and instead got 18 years offer to

:02:38. > :02:42.Government, Margaret Thatcher, the deintuft reelisation of Scotland and

:02:43. > :02:45.the poll tax to boot. In 1997, we took our opportunity and since the

:02:46. > :02:51.Parliament came to Scotland, life has got better. We introduced free

:02:52. > :02:55.personal care for the elderly, we removed tuition fees from the next

:02:56. > :03:00.generation of students. We helped the old by providing security and we

:03:01. > :03:06.gave opportunity to the young. When we have problems like the current

:03:07. > :03:11.threat to the Ferguson shipyard, we can act deicively to save jobs.

:03:12. > :03:14.There is much, far too much, that is still controlled at Westminster. We

:03:15. > :03:19.couldn't stop the bedroom tax. We can't stop illegal wars. We can't

:03:20. > :03:24.stop the poor and disabled bearing the brunt of welfare cuts. We can't

:03:25. > :03:28.stop the spread of food banks in this prosperous country. We can't

:03:29. > :03:32.stop countless billions being wasted on a new generation of weapons of

:03:33. > :03:38.mass destruction. Now we have the opportunity to change all of that.

:03:39. > :03:42.Three weeks on Thursday we can take matters into Scottish hands. Next to

:03:43. > :03:47.no-one wants to go backwards. More and more Scots want to complete the

:03:48. > :03:54.home-rule journey. The case for independence depends on a simple

:03:55. > :03:57.proposition: No-one, absolutely no-one will want the be better than

:03:58. > :04:02.the people who live and work in Scotland. No-one cares more about

:04:03. > :04:06.Scotland. Just like in 1979, the voices of doom tell us we can't do

:04:07. > :04:10.it. We can't do what every other country takes for granted. Just like

:04:11. > :04:17.then, they are wrong. We are a rich nation, a resourceful people. We can

:04:18. > :04:21.create a prosperous nation and a fairer society, a real vision for

:04:22. > :04:24.the people of Scotland. This is our time. It's our moment. Let us do it

:04:25. > :04:47.now. APPLAUSE

:04:48. > :04:51.This is This is it, he's asking us to take his word for it on

:04:52. > :04:56.everything, no Plan B for anything. Trust what he says, sorry I can't.

:04:57. > :05:00.The basic difference between Alex Salmond and me is this: My first

:05:01. > :05:05.priority is to build a fairer and better society. His first priority

:05:06. > :05:09.is to create a separate state no matter what the risks and what the

:05:10. > :05:13.costs. While he's been spending the last two years talking, I've been

:05:14. > :05:18.listening. I know that people want change. But they also want security

:05:19. > :05:23.on jobs, on pensions, on their children's future. That's why my

:05:24. > :05:27.message is that No, Thanks will not mean no changes. That's why there

:05:28. > :05:30.will be more powers for the Scottish Parliament on tax, welfare, on

:05:31. > :05:36.everything that makes sense to decide here. We've delivered before.

:05:37. > :05:42.We will deliver again. Now, tomorrow, we Scots will start voting

:05:43. > :05:47.by post, so we need answers tonight, right here and right now. The

:05:48. > :05:52.currency, no answers. Let me tell you why currency matters. Currency

:05:53. > :05:55.is about jobs in huge numbers. Currency is about what we pay for

:05:56. > :06:00.the weekly shop, interest rates, mortgage rates and rents and the

:06:01. > :06:03.value of our pensions. Critically currency, the money we use, is about

:06:04. > :06:09.being able to pay for public services upon which we all depend.

:06:10. > :06:13.That's the real threat to our national Health Service, not the

:06:14. > :06:17.ones he's trying to scare us with. The questions have grown, what about

:06:18. > :06:23.oil? Last week, Sir Ian Wood, the North Sea oil expert issued a stark

:06:24. > :06:25.warning, simply, he says that they're hugely exaggerating oil

:06:26. > :06:31.revenues to make sure the sums add up. Again, are we going to place all

:06:32. > :06:35.our bets on Alex Salmond alone being right? We don't need to take that

:06:36. > :06:39.risk. The United Kingdom is about sharing risks and rewards with our

:06:40. > :06:43.neighbours. Being part of something bigger gives us opportunity and

:06:44. > :06:47.security as well as our Scottish identity and decision making. This

:06:48. > :06:50.is a decision for which there is no turning back, but our children and

:06:51. > :06:53.the generation that's follow will have to live with that decision. Now

:06:54. > :06:58.you might hear some good lines from him tonight, but remember, a good

:06:59. > :07:02.line is not always a good answer. It's answers now we need, otherwise

:07:03. > :07:04.for ourselves and our children, other generations to come, we have

:07:05. > :07:20.to say No, Thanks. APPLAUSE

:07:21. > :07:23.Thank you for your opening remarks. Tonight 's debate is a game of four

:07:24. > :07:27.halves or at least four sections. There will be questions on the

:07:28. > :07:32.economy, on Scotland at home, on Scotland's place in the world and

:07:33. > :07:37.what happens after the referendum. The lead questions will come from

:07:38. > :07:41.members of our audience, here in Kelvingrove, 200 people have been

:07:42. > :07:45.independently selected by the polling and research consultancy

:07:46. > :07:48.ComRes to include a balance of yes and no supporters as well as some

:07:49. > :07:51.undecided voters, a further 20 members of the public, simply

:07:52. > :07:57.balanced, have been invited to take part, by the BBC, having sent in

:07:58. > :08:04.questions via the BBC website. The first section is on the economy and

:08:05. > :08:13.the first question comes from Jean Smith. Would we be financially safe

:08:14. > :08:18.in an independent Scotland? Well, a lot of that depends on the currency

:08:19. > :08:23.we use. At the moment, the bedrock of our economy is the pound

:08:24. > :08:25.sterling. That doesn't belong to any one of the individual countries in

:08:26. > :08:29.the United Kingdom, it belongs to the United Kingdom as a whole, the

:08:30. > :08:33.Bank of England stands behind it and behind that the UK Government. I

:08:34. > :08:36.know from my experience as Chancellor of the Exchequer, when I

:08:37. > :08:41.had to deal with the collapse of the banking system in 2008, the security

:08:42. > :08:44.that comes from having a country that was large enough to deal with

:08:45. > :08:48.the collapsing bank, you remember the royal bank was almost the same

:08:49. > :08:53.size as the whole of the UK at that time, meant I could do something

:08:54. > :08:56.about it. My Irish counterpart, my Icelandic counterpart, remember, the

:08:57. > :08:59.ark of prosperity, they weren't so lucky because they weren't big

:09:00. > :09:02.enough. That's one of the reasons why I believe that Scotland is

:09:03. > :09:06.better and stronger together by being part of the United Kingdom we

:09:07. > :09:10.have that greater security. Of course, if you look at the wider

:09:11. > :09:14.economy, Scotland has a lot going for us. Our businesses, our firms do

:09:15. > :09:18.well but I would argue that is because of the United Kingdom not

:09:19. > :09:21.despite the United Kingdom. When I look at jobs for our children and

:09:22. > :09:25.grandchildren, in a pretty uncertain world, I'm very convinced it's in

:09:26. > :09:29.our best interests to be proud of what we do here in Scotland, proud

:09:30. > :09:35.of our identity, but equally proud to share in the wider United Kingdom

:09:36. > :09:40.because we get something bigger, something greater, greater security

:09:41. > :09:44.out of that as well. Well, the question was will we be safe and

:09:45. > :09:47.security as an independent Scotland economically, the answer is yes, we

:09:48. > :09:51.will. Scotland compared to other wealthy countries, we're 14th in the

:09:52. > :09:55.organisation of economic and cooperation and development, the

:09:56. > :09:59.rich man's club, it's sometimes called per head of population.

:10:00. > :10:03.Alastair raised the currency. Let me say what we want to do. I'm looking

:10:04. > :10:06.for a mandate so we can share sterling, the pound, in a sensible

:10:07. > :10:10.currency union with the rest of the United Kingdom. That's best because

:10:11. > :10:14.England and Wales and Northern Ireland are our biggest export

:10:15. > :10:19.market. We're their second biggest export market. It makes sense. I'm

:10:20. > :10:23.looking - I know there's other options for Scotland, we could have

:10:24. > :10:27.a Scottish currency, like Sweden or Norway does. We could have a

:10:28. > :10:31.Scottish pound attached to the pound sterling. That's what Denmark does

:10:32. > :10:38.with the euro or Hong Kong with the dollar. No-one can stop us using the

:10:39. > :10:40.pound sterling. It's an internationally tradeable currency.

:10:41. > :10:46.We believe the best option for Scotland, what I'm seeking a mandate

:10:47. > :10:50.for, so to have the pound scerling, so -- sterling, we pay our mortgage,

:10:51. > :10:55.get our wages in the pound. I'm seeking the best option for Scotland

:10:56. > :11:01.so a prosperous economy keeps the pound sterling.

:11:02. > :11:05.APPLAUSE I can tell you both that we will be

:11:06. > :11:10.coming to the currency. In the next part of the discussion, I'd like to

:11:11. > :11:16.focus on an issue that has become topical over the last few days and

:11:17. > :11:21.that is oil. I think you mentioned Sir Ian Wood, a leading figure in

:11:22. > :11:25.the North Sea questioning how much black gold there is to be extracted.

:11:26. > :11:29.Since then other prominent figures in the industry have said there

:11:30. > :11:35.might be more than he anticipates. Alistair Darling, isn't it the case

:11:36. > :11:39.that the figures from the UK Government's independent Office for

:11:40. > :11:45.Budget Responsibility are too low? They say there are only ten billion

:11:46. > :11:50.barrels left, the industry says 24. If you look at the last 20 years

:11:51. > :11:53.successive Governments have been too optimistic about production and the

:11:54. > :11:58.amount of revenue we get from the North Sea. As you say, the office of

:11:59. > :12:02.budget responsibility, which is independent of Government, its given

:12:03. > :12:05.estimates and proved to be too optimistic. I just give an example

:12:06. > :12:10.of what the problem is: In the last couple of years, the amount of

:12:11. > :12:15.revenue we've got from the North Sea has been ?5 billion less than was

:12:16. > :12:19.expected. That ?5 billion, to give you an example of what that does, it

:12:20. > :12:22.is equivalent to more than we spend on schools in Scotland and half what

:12:23. > :12:28.we spend on the Health Service. If you lost that sum in any one year,

:12:29. > :12:32.as happened last year, it means for Scotland it would have to make good

:12:33. > :12:37.that, either by raising taxes elsewhere or cutting back on public

:12:38. > :12:41.exebd expenditure. Do you think the estimates, which are lower than the

:12:42. > :12:45.industry, far lower than Sir Ian Wood suggests, they are too low? Are

:12:46. > :12:51.they too pessimistic? If you look back, they have been too optimistic.

:12:52. > :12:54.Looking ahead, we've never extracted as much as people expect. Sir Ian

:12:55. > :12:58.Wood was commissioned by the Government to see how we could get

:12:59. > :13:03.more oil extracted, but he, last week, and he is probably one of the

:13:04. > :13:09.leading experts in the North Sea, he has said that the Scottish

:13:10. > :13:16.Government is something, is being wildly on the mistic. I hope --

:13:17. > :13:18.optimistic I hope we get more oil revenue from the North Sea. But if

:13:19. > :13:27.you don't, remember an independent Scotland would get about 15% of its

:13:28. > :13:30.revenues from the North Sea - You will have plenty of time. It's a

:13:31. > :13:34.small pror portion of revenue for the UK. We are taking on a huge

:13:35. > :13:39.amount of risk because North Sea oil revenues are volatile, uncertain and

:13:40. > :13:45.we will make huge cuts to public expend chair if it went wrong as it

:13:46. > :13:50.has in the last year. Alastair twice said that the OBR was independent

:13:51. > :13:54.and to be trusted. Yet in 2010, he said it wasn't so much a part of

:13:55. > :14:02.Government but had become a part of the Conservative Party. That's what

:14:03. > :14:05.he said. You are misleading. As far as Ian Wood... Not for the first

:14:06. > :14:13.time, you're being totally misleading about that. You asked me

:14:14. > :14:17.not to interrupt you, so do me the same service. Ian Wood is a

:14:18. > :14:21.respected figure in the industry, let's take his estimate of the

:14:22. > :14:27.future reserves of North Sea oil. He says between 17 to 18. 5 billion

:14:28. > :14:32.barrels, that's a thousand million barrels over the next 35 years. 15

:14:33. > :14:44.to 16-and-a-half. In financial terms, that is worth ?1 trillion. It

:14:45. > :14:50.has a lot of billions, a lot of money. The No campaign, the Tory

:14:51. > :14:53.party, the Labour Party, the only people in the world who argue that

:14:54. > :14:59.the possession of substantial amounts of oil and gas is somehow

:15:00. > :15:02.cursed as opposed to an asset for a country. Every other country in the

:15:03. > :15:07.world thinks it's an asset. APPLAUSE

:15:08. > :15:09.You are quoting a wholesale value of oil.

:15:10. > :15:15.What the Government actually gets is the tax from that. The profits go to

:15:16. > :15:20.America and places like that. What I would say to you, the North Sea has

:15:21. > :15:24.been in a colossal boon to this country for 40 years, but what you

:15:25. > :15:30.can't get away from is that once it is gone, it has gone. Slowly but

:15:31. > :15:33.surely, every barrel we take away, there is one barrel less. I don't

:15:34. > :15:37.want to see my country so dependent on something that is so volatile

:15:38. > :15:43.that in one year last year, you lost more revenues than be spent on the

:15:44. > :15:50.whole of the schools in Scotland. Let me ask a question. It is the

:15:51. > :15:54.case your own Government's forecast, downgraded by ?1 billion for the

:15:55. > :15:57.first year of independence, that's an acceptance that this is a

:15:58. > :16:03.volatile resource which will be much more important to the economy than

:16:04. > :16:09.it is to the UK than an independent Scotland. Don't you feel it's a

:16:10. > :16:14.risk? It's about 15% of Scotland's overall economy. It is 20% of

:16:15. > :16:18.Norway's overall economy and I haven't seen do Norway much harm

:16:19. > :16:23.over the last 40 years. Now, Alistair says the last 40 years been

:16:24. > :16:27.great but 40 years ago, his colleagues were telling us that

:16:28. > :16:32.North Sea oil and gas would run out by the year 2000. The reality is,

:16:33. > :16:36.North Sea oil and gas will be with is way behind 2050. Alistair says I

:16:37. > :16:41.was quoting a wholesale value but let's say that 20% of it is the

:16:42. > :16:48.revenue that goes to the Government. That is ?200 billion, 200,000

:16:49. > :16:52.billion pounds, ?6 billion a year. The reality is, every other country

:16:53. > :16:56.in Europe would give their eye teeth to have North Sea oil and gas for

:16:57. > :17:01.the bid cannot be regarded as anything other than a substantial

:17:02. > :17:02.asset for the people of Scotland. But it's notoriously volatile.

:17:03. > :17:07.APPLAUSE .

:17:08. > :17:11.You're promising things on the basis of the source of revenue which is

:17:12. > :17:15.very volatile, which would make up a substantial part of Scotland's

:17:16. > :17:21.income and boiler is a great thing to have but to rely so much on

:17:22. > :17:26.something, that oil. Your White Paper, there was just one page of

:17:27. > :17:29.members for one year and the estimates you made the oil have

:17:30. > :17:38.proved to be wrong, much lower than you thought. To tell people they can

:17:39. > :17:43.rely on it is gambling our children's future.

:17:44. > :17:47.APPLAUSE I want to move to our second

:17:48. > :17:52.question on the economy from Cathy Devlin.

:17:53. > :17:56.I would like to know in an independent Scotland, I would like a

:17:57. > :18:00.definitive answer exactly what currency we will use if we don't use

:18:01. > :18:03.sterling. Alex Salmond you have set up the options but what is the

:18:04. > :18:09.definitive answer? Can I say to Cathy, since I had opportunity to

:18:10. > :18:14.lead a number of opportunities at options for Scotland, I am seeking a

:18:15. > :18:17.mandate for the people of Scotland in this referendum. I want people to

:18:18. > :18:24.back the proposition that we should share sterling in a currency union,

:18:25. > :18:28.a common sense common currency is best for Scotland and the rest of

:18:29. > :18:31.the UK. Now, that mandate is crucial for the battle they want people in

:18:32. > :18:36.Scotland to support because I believe if we supported and send me

:18:37. > :18:40.into negotiations as First Minister, that will be the outcome. I have

:18:41. > :18:43.said at the options to point out that other things Scotland could

:18:44. > :18:48.do. I laid out in some detail earlier on, but I would go as First

:18:49. > :18:53.Minister to argue what's best for Scotland seeking a mandate from the

:18:54. > :18:57.people of Scotland so we can have that as a settlement in negotiations

:18:58. > :19:01.if I was to argue for second best, then second best is what we would

:19:02. > :19:05.get. You go into negotiations with that mandate arguing for what's best

:19:06. > :19:05.for Scotland and that is keeping the ?.

:19:06. > :19:18.APPLAUSE -- ? the point about a currency

:19:19. > :19:22.union is both parties have to agree to it and yes there is the sovereign

:19:23. > :19:25.will of the Scottish people but also we have to accept there is a

:19:26. > :19:29.sovereign will have the rest of the UK for a currency union to work.

:19:30. > :19:32.Both sides have to agree. You can see that in the Eurozone. When you

:19:33. > :19:38.look at the views throughout the whole country, just why would expect

:19:39. > :19:42.people to say we don't want to join the euro but will join a currency

:19:43. > :19:46.union with a foreign country, you are taking a huge risk if you just

:19:47. > :19:50.assume it's going to fall into place. I think the currency union

:19:51. > :19:54.would be bad for Scotland because our budget would have to be decided

:19:55. > :19:58.and approved, not by us, but by what would then be a foreign country

:19:59. > :20:01.because that's what happened in the Eurozone. Every country has to stand

:20:02. > :20:04.in its budget for approval and it would not be good for the rest of

:20:05. > :20:10.the UK either but the question which was asked was, if we don't have a

:20:11. > :20:13.currency union, what is plan B? I had no luck three weeks ago I asked

:20:14. > :20:20.him what that was. He could not say, didn't want to say because we

:20:21. > :20:25.wouldn't like the answer. It's not a matter for Alex Salmond what the

:20:26. > :20:28.alternative is. Hold on. I would like to know what the answer is

:20:29. > :20:32.because I don't want to use somebody else's currency with no central

:20:33. > :20:35.bank, rotten public services. It is the euro, I don't not bad either and

:20:36. > :20:41.as for a separate Scottish currency, we saw what happened with a new

:20:42. > :20:47.currency, the new kid on the block, the first thing, they default on

:20:48. > :20:51.debt. I want to know what plan B is. APPLAUSE

:20:52. > :21:02.. I set out the options very clearly.

:21:03. > :21:07.Three plan Bs for the price of one. They are just like buses. You expect

:21:08. > :21:16.one and then up in a row. Three plan B Pol. I would like to follow up

:21:17. > :21:20.here. It people back that plan, to keep sterling in a sensible currency

:21:21. > :21:24.union, would you, as a Democrat, accept that as the will of the

:21:25. > :21:29.Scottish people? If you win this referendum, I will accept a No vote,

:21:30. > :21:35.but do you accept the solid goodwill of Scottish people and back the

:21:36. > :21:40.currency union? I have always said, in a referendum, you accept the

:21:41. > :21:44.outcome, but I happen to think and so do a lot of people in this

:21:45. > :21:50.country that a currency union that you are proposing is a second best

:21:51. > :21:57.option for Scotland. The ? only works if you have an economic and

:21:58. > :22:00.political union. I want to hear from members of our audience if you would

:22:01. > :22:04.like to contribute some points. It's not the case of not giving us your

:22:05. > :22:10.plan B because we can work it out. You have said no to the euro, you

:22:11. > :22:13.don't support that, the White Paper says if somebody wants to argue the

:22:14. > :22:17.case for a separate Scottish currency they need to win an

:22:18. > :22:20.election, so that leaves us with at the point of Independence, if we

:22:21. > :22:25.can't have a currency union, using the pound anyway. You are absolutely

:22:26. > :22:30.right we don't need permission to use our own currency for that nobody

:22:31. > :22:36.can tell us to do or not to use the pound. The argument actually denies

:22:37. > :22:39.us the assets of the Bank of England, the financial assets of the

:22:40. > :22:43.country. The reason that won't happen incidentally is if you do

:22:44. > :22:46.that, the UK, the rest of the UK, the people watching at home in

:22:47. > :22:49.England and Wales tonight and Northern Ireland, will get stuck

:22:50. > :22:55.with liabilities and there's absolutely no way, the enormous

:22:56. > :23:02.debts so Alistair Darling and George Osborne built up that any UK

:23:03. > :23:06.Chancellor is going to let Scotland off ?5 billion a year of the debt

:23:07. > :23:09.payments we have offered to make as part of a sensible currency union.

:23:10. > :23:11.That's why it's good for Scotland and good for the rest of the UK.

:23:12. > :23:24.APPLAUSE You said a few moments ago you had a

:23:25. > :23:28.row of buses, plan Bs. This is not a collection of buses

:23:29. > :23:33.but the many we use. The value of our savings. The interest rates we

:23:34. > :23:40.pay, the amount of money for public services. Stop playing games with

:23:41. > :23:43.us. You must have a plan B for the Scottish people. If we win the

:23:44. > :23:51.referendum, will you... Nobody can hear. Can we use the pound anyway?

:23:52. > :23:59.Of course, we could use a pound, the ruble. We can use anything we want.

:24:00. > :24:03.The problem is, if you're using somebody else's currency, you don't

:24:04. > :24:07.have a central bank, so the financial services can't exist in

:24:08. > :24:16.Scotland. Just hold on a bet, will you? The second problem is,

:24:17. > :24:19.countries which use other people 's currencies like Panama, Ecuador,

:24:20. > :24:24.Hong Kong, they have to run a surplus, they can't borrow. You

:24:25. > :24:27.would have a huge deficit. That comes out of public services like

:24:28. > :24:32.schools and hospitals. That's why it is a nonsense option. If the rest of

:24:33. > :24:38.the UK refuses a currency union, doesn't it leave itself liable for

:24:39. > :24:45.all the accumulated UK debt? No, it doesn't. Glenn asked me a question.

:24:46. > :24:50.Then he will come onto you, no doubt. If your first message in the

:24:51. > :24:53.World is here is Scotland, new currency, and by the way, we have

:24:54. > :24:57.just defaulted on our debt, what you think that will do to people who

:24:58. > :25:04.lend us money in the future? Nobody would lend any money in the future.

:25:05. > :25:09.The accepted liability for UK debt and all surpluses on January 13 this

:25:10. > :25:13.commie can't default on a debt which is not yours in the first place.

:25:14. > :25:18.Alistair few seconds ago, admitted he could use the anyway. We didn't

:25:19. > :25:22.need permission. Totally different from the Chancellor of the exchequer

:25:23. > :25:27.said only a few months ago when he said if you walk out of the UK, you

:25:28. > :25:31.walk out of the pound. We have heard it tonight. They cannot stop us

:25:32. > :25:40.using the pound, the most important revelation of this debate. Are you

:25:41. > :25:43.saying... Are you saying, Alex Salmond, if the UK refused a

:25:44. > :25:50.currency union, you would refuse to take a share of debt? We cannot be

:25:51. > :25:55.stopped from using the pound but what it can do is deny us the access

:25:56. > :26:00.to the financial assets held by the Bank of England. The Bank of England

:26:01. > :26:05.for example owns 27% of UK debt. You would not take the debt? We are

:26:06. > :26:11.offering to pay a fair share as part of the agreement. If the UK parties

:26:12. > :26:16.take all of financial assets of the UK, then they are stuck with all the

:26:17. > :26:21.financial liabilities of the United Kingdom. It's obvious. I want to

:26:22. > :26:25.bring in some members of the audience who have not had a say so

:26:26. > :26:32.far in the programme. The gentleman in a middle in a checked shirt. A

:26:33. > :26:37.question for Alistair. The point is come if you think the currency union

:26:38. > :26:42.is the second option, second best for Scotland, what would be the best

:26:43. > :26:45.for an independent Scotland? We will pick up on that. The gentleman in

:26:46. > :26:53.the front row in the middle with a black jacket and blue shirt. The Yes

:26:54. > :26:59.side Saint Nicholas promises that speaking to the other parties. If we

:27:00. > :27:02.come out of the UK, we will also come out of the offside for the euro

:27:03. > :27:06.and other member of the EU will be required to take on the euro with in

:27:07. > :27:12.a matter of years. OK, the lady in the back row. I think whether we use

:27:13. > :27:16.the pound or not is regardless at this point, and it sounds like we'll

:27:17. > :27:22.have some kind of currency union. The problem is, and what situation

:27:23. > :27:25.would we have it? It seems like Alex Salmond is suggesting we held a

:27:26. > :27:30.central bank to ransom and I wonder how the English Government will

:27:31. > :27:34.respond to that given it will be a foreign country at that point?

:27:35. > :27:39.Perhaps you might want to pick up on the Euro question. Can I do say to

:27:40. > :27:44.the lady was just spoken, our proposition is we should have a fair

:27:45. > :27:48.share of financing the debts accumulated by the UK as part of a

:27:49. > :27:52.sensible currency arrangement. As far as the gentleman's point on the

:27:53. > :27:56.row is concerned, you can't be forced into it. Sweden, for

:27:57. > :28:00.example, is part of the EU on exactly the same basis legally that

:28:01. > :28:05.Scotland would be. Sweden is not in the road because joining it is

:28:06. > :28:10.voluntary. -- in the Euro. The gentleman spoke first asked the most

:28:11. > :28:14.important question. Alistair seems to rule out everything. 190

:28:15. > :28:18.countries have a currency arrangement and why would Scotland

:28:19. > :28:20.be the only independent country in history which can't have a

:28:21. > :28:25.satisfactory currency to run its own affairs? We would not have to have a

:28:26. > :28:29.currency in a Yes Vote... As the former Chancellor, what would your

:28:30. > :28:35.advice be if we could not have a currency? I think the fallback

:28:36. > :28:41.positions are second and bad for Scotland. It is possible in a few

:28:42. > :28:46.weeks time, Scotland could choose to be independent, and you have been in

:28:47. > :28:51.the Treasury. You know what is not good for this country but what would

:28:52. > :28:54.be the best plan B option? Honestly, they are all second-best and I'm not

:28:55. > :29:01.going to argue for a second-best option. I'm sorry. You're not doing

:29:02. > :29:05.as a plan B either after saying Alex Salmond wouldn't give us a plan B.

:29:06. > :29:11.The pound sterling is the best for Scotland. It's not like a CD

:29:12. > :29:15.collection you split up in a divorce for the value of the ? if the Bank

:29:16. > :29:20.of England stands behind it and UK Government stands behind that and

:29:21. > :29:26.that's why the ? acceptable. The lady was asking about the euro. It

:29:27. > :29:30.is the case that every country which adorn the European Union after 1996

:29:31. > :29:33.has been obliged to join the euro. We'll have to see in discussions

:29:34. > :29:38.what happened then but in relation to the currency union, I will be

:29:39. > :29:42.brief, even if you have got one, I can't understand why, as a

:29:43. > :29:45.nationalist, you would want one because our borrowing, tax and

:29:46. > :29:48.spending would be decided, not in Edinburgh, but by a foreign

:29:49. > :29:55.Government in London. APPLAUSE

:29:56. > :30:08.The next section of our debate which is on Scotland at home. The next

:30:09. > :30:14.question now. I just want to know how independence would improve or

:30:15. > :30:18.change the NHS for everyone, but in particular, for people living with

:30:19. > :30:25.life-long conditions, chronic illnesses? I will put that first to

:30:26. > :30:28.Alex Salmond. Can I say to Linda that the most important thing about

:30:29. > :30:33.the National Health Service for people with chronic conditions and

:30:34. > :30:36.all of us as we keep it safe in public hands and keep it properly

:30:37. > :30:40.financed. The position just now under devolution is we can't be

:30:41. > :30:44.forced to privatise the National Health Service because we have

:30:45. > :30:48.operational control of it, but we don't have financial control of it.

:30:49. > :30:51.That is a serious problem. There are people watching in Wales tonight

:30:52. > :30:57.where the National Health Service spending has been reduced in real

:30:58. > :30:59.terms because of the financial pressure the budgets London. There

:31:00. > :31:04.people in England watching where they have a Jarrow march taking

:31:05. > :31:06.place, through Yorkshire tonight, campaigning against the

:31:07. > :31:12.privatisation of the National Health Service. Now the danger for Scotland

:31:13. > :31:14.is this: If England goes down the road of privatisation and charging

:31:15. > :31:17.and cuts to public spending, it's not because they can force us to

:31:18. > :31:22.privatise the Health Service in Scotland because they can't. It's

:31:23. > :31:25.the financial pressure makes things extremely difficult for the Health

:31:26. > :31:28.Service in Scotland. That's why to have a Health Service we can trust

:31:29. > :31:32.and rely on, we've got to have a Health Service where we have

:31:33. > :31:37.financial control as well as policy control, so we can keep the National

:31:38. > :31:47.Health Service as the greatest public institution of Scotland.

:31:48. > :31:51.APPLAUSE The Health Service is critically

:31:52. > :31:54.important to all of us in Scotland. It's one of the most Cherished

:31:55. > :31:58.institution there's is in the country. That is one of the reasons

:31:59. > :32:00.that I believe being part of the United Kingdom means that we have

:32:01. > :32:04.that strength and security that means that we can fund it,

:32:05. > :32:09.especially with the pressures of an ageing population here in Scotland.

:32:10. > :32:13.At the moment, quite rightly, the total control over the NHS lies with

:32:14. > :32:17.the Scottish Parliament and the Scottish Government. Not only in

:32:18. > :32:20.terms of policy, but actually, in terms of financing. The Scottish

:32:21. > :32:23.Parliament can decide how much or how little it spends, how much it

:32:24. > :32:26.spends in the public sector, how much it spends in the private sector

:32:27. > :32:30.and the Scottish Government has spent in the last couple of years

:32:31. > :32:34.nearly ?100 million of NHS money through the private sector in order

:32:35. > :32:40.to meet its targets. So both Governments are doing that. The

:32:41. > :32:44.point is because of the strength and security of the United Kingdom,

:32:45. > :32:48.public spending here is ?1200 a head more than in the rest of the United

:32:49. > :32:50.Kingdom and that is the way to guarantee spending on the National

:32:51. > :32:56.Health Service. Now I'm glad we're discussing it. At the last debate,

:32:57. > :32:59.Alex Salmond mentioned the NHS once. Since that debate, and all the

:33:00. > :33:05.business over the currency, we've been subjected to a scare campaign

:33:06. > :33:07.principally aimed at what's going on in England...

:33:08. > :33:11.LAUGHTER Alex Salmond was endorsing the claim

:33:12. > :33:14.that operations were being stopped at a hospital in Gateshead in the

:33:15. > :33:19.north-east of England because of privatisation. It turns out the

:33:20. > :33:25.allegation was simply untrue. It was a complete fabrication. What we need

:33:26. > :33:30.is less of that scaremongering and more of a realisation that we all

:33:31. > :33:33.want the NHS to do well. We all want it to be there when we need it and

:33:34. > :33:37.to do that you need funding. Frankly, taking on risks not even

:33:38. > :33:42.knowing what currency you've got is a real threat to the National Health

:33:43. > :33:44.Let's pursue Service. This then. APPLAUSE

:33:45. > :33:47.I will be seeking further audience contributions in just a moment. But

:33:48. > :33:52.Alex Salmond, if a Yes vote is the only way to protect the NHS, why

:33:53. > :33:59.doesn't it say that in your white paper on independence, your prospeck

:34:00. > :34:02.Tuesday? -- prospectus? That's been a long-term argument for the case

:34:03. > :34:06.for independence. Why isn't it in the white paper? I tried to weigh it

:34:07. > :34:09.out carefully. I'm not saying we can be forced to privatise the Health

:34:10. > :34:14.Service in Scotland because we have operational control of the National

:34:15. > :34:18.Health Service. But I am saying that general cutbacks in England, a move

:34:19. > :34:21.towards privatisation and charging will impose financial pressure on

:34:22. > :34:25.the National Health Service. If we want to see what could happen in

:34:26. > :34:28.Scotland tomorrow, we only need to look at what's happening in Wales

:34:29. > :34:35.today, where a Labour administration has been forced to cut back National

:34:36. > :34:38.Health Service in real terms because this afternoon budgetary pressure.

:34:39. > :34:42.We've protected it in Scotland to date. It is extraordinarily

:34:43. > :34:47.difficult. Alastair says we can choose. The overall Scottish budget

:34:48. > :34:51.has been cut by 8%. Isn't the point that the budget for the NHS in

:34:52. > :34:55.England is rising and continues to rise, so at what point, in what year

:34:56. > :35:00.do you think it will fall with a knock-on cut to the Scottish budget?

:35:01. > :35:05.Exactly, which is why I've said the overall budget to Scotland has been

:35:06. > :35:08.cut by 8%. If we, as we have, decide to protect the National Health

:35:09. > :35:12.Service, which we've done, that's a third of our spending, that means

:35:13. > :35:17.the rest of the budget takes a 12% cut. If, as we believe, and Labour

:35:18. > :35:21.believe in England, there's a privatisation agenda and a charging

:35:22. > :35:24.agenda in the National Health Service, it means less public money

:35:25. > :35:28.spent in England and under devolution that knocks on to

:35:29. > :35:30.Scotland. Nobody believes that privatising the Health Service to

:35:31. > :35:33.increase public spending, nobody believes that. Therefore, to protect

:35:34. > :35:38.and the National Health Service we have to control it financially as

:35:39. > :35:44.well as in policy terms to keep it safe in public hands. Let's bring in

:35:45. > :35:46.Alistair Darling. Let me ask the question...

:35:47. > :35:51.APPLAUSE If the Scottish National Party is

:35:52. > :35:54.wrong about this, why has the Shadow Health Secretary, Labour's Andy

:35:55. > :35:59.Burnham, been warning about the demise of the NHS in England?

:36:00. > :36:02.Because there's a big argument going on as to exactly how much private

:36:03. > :36:06.sector provision do you use as part of the overall treatment. Actually,

:36:07. > :36:09.in public spending terms, whether the NHS spends its money directly or

:36:10. > :36:12.through a private contractor, it doesn't make any difference in terms

:36:13. > :36:16.of the amount of money that we get. But there's an important point here,

:36:17. > :36:19.throughout all the time of the Labour Government, of which I was a

:36:20. > :36:22.member, we increased spending on health. It actually has carried on

:36:23. > :36:26.increasing under the present Government and it's due to carry on

:36:27. > :36:30.increasing in the next few years. Don't just believe me. There's an

:36:31. > :36:34.article in the Financial Times today that made that point. Which leads me

:36:35. > :36:39.to wonder why, firstly, in the last debate, Alex Salmond mentioned the

:36:40. > :36:41.NHS once. In the constitution he published the draft constitution for

:36:42. > :36:45.Scotland published published the draft constitution for

:36:46. > :36:48.wasn't mentioned at all. This has all come along as part of the

:36:49. > :36:53.referendum campaign. It may be an issue in the general election, but

:36:54. > :36:56.what I really resent is using scare stories like the one in the hospital

:36:57. > :37:03.in the north-east in order to make a point, which has got nothing to do

:37:04. > :37:07.with this referendum. Let's hear from the audience first. Then you

:37:08. > :37:11.can both come back in. The lady towards the front here. I would like

:37:12. > :37:15.to encourage everybody, whether you're voting yes or no or you're

:37:16. > :37:20.undecided - don't believe a word that comes out of Alistair Darling's

:37:21. > :37:24.mouth. You are a hypocrite Mr Darling. You and your Labour

:37:25. > :37:31.Government started the privatisation of the Health Service. Yes you did.

:37:32. > :37:34.No, we didn't. Half of your boys' club in Westminster have lovely

:37:35. > :37:39.investments in private health companies. One last thing, if you

:37:40. > :37:46.get any more invites to speak at fancy dinners for private health

:37:47. > :37:50.companies, I hope you can feel Mr Bevan sitting on your shoulder. All

:37:51. > :37:58.right, thank you. Gentleman at the back.

:37:59. > :38:05.Yes you with the glasses. Is the real threat to Scotland's budget not

:38:06. > :38:08.the scrapping of the Barnett formula, advocated by several

:38:09. > :38:12.ministers in the current Cabinet. That's the way in which money is

:38:13. > :38:17.shared out across the UK, all the nations of the UK. I'll take another

:38:18. > :38:21.gentleman in the middle here in the blue shirt. You're talking about

:38:22. > :38:26.saving the NHS and how important it is, why then are you allowing trials

:38:27. > :38:30.down in England where you can get private health care? That's going to

:38:31. > :38:34.erode wages, erode the service and allow people to farm out, like the

:38:35. > :38:37.lady said, private companies to come and lift the money right out of the

:38:38. > :38:46.NHS. That's not going to help us in any shape or form. One more. Right

:38:47. > :38:52.up the back. Gentleman in the blue T-shirt. What about the Post Office?

:38:53. > :38:56.You privatised that, Mr Darling? Let's stick with the National Health

:38:57. > :39:00.Service. That's enough for us to cope with at the moment. Do you want

:39:01. > :39:03.to pick up on those points? I didn't privatise the Post Office. In

:39:04. > :39:08.relation to the Health Service, I think every one of us here and most

:39:09. > :39:12.people in this country want to see a strong and thriving Health Service.

:39:13. > :39:16.That's my concern. I think we can best do that by being part of the UK

:39:17. > :39:19.where you have higher public expenditure, which goes to the

:39:20. > :39:21.Health Service in Scotland. We do in the rest of the United Kingdom. We

:39:22. > :39:25.have an ageing population in Scotland. We have a rising health

:39:26. > :39:29.need. I don't want to put that at risk. When I look at independent

:39:30. > :39:33.experts, not anything I'm saying, who look at Scotland's budgetary

:39:34. > :39:40.position in the years after independence, and they've identified

:39:41. > :39:43.a ?6 billion black hole over and above anything that might bring I

:39:44. > :39:47.don't want to put the Health Service at risk. I'm against going down a

:39:48. > :39:50.route that ends up us finding that public services are more squeezed,

:39:51. > :39:56.more pressure and cut in a way that I don't think any of us want to see.

:39:57. > :39:58.I'm not prepared to take that risk. APPLAUSE

:39:59. > :40:02.The risk to the National Health Service comes from the cutbacks

:40:03. > :40:06.we've already had from Westminster, already pertaining in Wales, the

:40:07. > :40:11.threat of ?25 billion more. Now the Labour Party in England are warning

:40:12. > :40:13.loud and clear of the risk of privatisation throughout the

:40:14. > :40:18.National Health Service, the risk of charging. The Labour Party in Wales

:40:19. > :40:22.say that they've been forced to cut health expenditure because of the

:40:23. > :40:27.budgetary pressure from Westminster. Are you the only person who doesn't

:40:28. > :40:31.realise what's going on in England and Wales and the threat to Scotland

:40:32. > :40:37.unless we establish financial control to protect our own Health

:40:38. > :40:43.Service? APPLAUSE

:40:44. > :40:49.In a sentence. I recognise budgetary constraints everywhere. What I'm

:40:50. > :41:22.saying is that - You accuse me of scaremongering.

:41:23. > :41:25.CHEERING Because I believe that we can do

:41:26. > :41:29.better, we can be more prosperous, more options open to us by being

:41:30. > :41:33.proud what have we do in Scotland, but also having the advantage of

:41:34. > :41:38.being part of the United Kingdom. Let me give an example. A few weeks

:41:39. > :41:41.ago, I visited one of the most developed and advanced research,

:41:42. > :41:44.medical research centres in Dundee. There are people working there on

:41:45. > :41:48.possible cures and treatments for cancer, not just from Scotland, but

:41:49. > :41:54.from all over the country. Why are they there? Because Dundee attracts

:41:55. > :41:58.a very large share of UK research money. The experts were saying to

:41:59. > :42:03.me, if they lose that UK research money, by losing the UK, that will

:42:04. > :42:07.mean we lose that centre of expert ease. That's not -- expertise.

:42:08. > :42:11.That's important in terms of job that's will come in being able to

:42:12. > :42:15.develop treatments. That's one example. Near Glasgow, on the Clyde,

:42:16. > :42:19.we know there have been huge problems with the threatened closure

:42:20. > :42:23.of Fergusons. There are a lot of Royal Navy work here that depends on

:42:24. > :42:26.the Royal Navy. There's a submarine work further down the Clyde. Defence

:42:27. > :42:29.jobs are throughout Scotland. They're all examples of where jobs

:42:30. > :42:34.will come from in the future and if we lose those jobs, if we put a

:42:35. > :42:38.barrier between those firms and businesses and the markets south of

:42:39. > :42:41.the border that will have a bad effect on employment prospects. Yes,

:42:42. > :42:45.things are difficult just now for very obvious reasons, but I believe

:42:46. > :42:49.that we will be making a huge mistake to take on risks that we

:42:50. > :42:54.don't need and giving up on opportunities that we need for our

:42:55. > :43:00.children and generations to come. APPLAUSE

:43:01. > :43:03.Can I say, as First Minister, I've been working all week with the shop

:43:04. > :43:07.stewards at Fergusons to try and secure the employment there. I am

:43:08. > :43:12.absolutely delighted that we have moved into a position tonight with a

:43:13. > :43:16.prepared bidder and every opportunity and every belief that

:43:17. > :43:20.we're going to be able to sustain that yard and sustain the employment

:43:21. > :43:24.in the lower Clyde. That's the sort of action we've been able to take

:43:25. > :43:27.now because we have a Scottish Parliament that we couldn't take

:43:28. > :43:30.before. As far as other job threats in the Clyde are concerned,

:43:31. > :43:34.Alastair, the gentleman's question hit the nail on the head. You say

:43:35. > :43:37.there's threats to ship building jobs. I don't accept that. I think

:43:38. > :43:45.the future for ship building George Osborne is as the UCS workers, the

:43:46. > :43:49.shop stewards said last week, by diversifying our skills into the

:43:50. > :43:53.range of merchant vessels, like Norway, who produced 100 vessels in

:43:54. > :43:58.the last year. The ship building employment in Scotland has gone from

:43:59. > :44:02.tens of thousands to 3,000s under the United Kingdom. When gentleman

:44:03. > :44:06.said, not just talking about ship building, if we're better together,

:44:07. > :44:10.why don't we see it now, face the reality. In so many airsa -- areas

:44:11. > :44:15.of life, of child poverty, food banks, the loss of industrial jobs,

:44:16. > :44:18.Westminster stands dieted because of their running of the economy --

:44:19. > :44:26.indicted because of the running of the economy in Scotland.

:44:27. > :44:30.There are many issues we could discuss and we are quite pressed for

:44:31. > :44:34.time in this section will any pick on one, the welfare issue you

:44:35. > :44:37.mentioned. Alistair Darling, the Scottish

:44:38. > :44:40.Government estimates, as a result of disability living allowance being

:44:41. > :44:45.replaced with a personal independence payment, in the coming

:44:46. > :44:48.years, more than 100,000 disabled Scottish people will lose money for

:44:49. > :44:55.them to you support that reform? No one can support people who need

:44:56. > :44:59.support being denied help. We have come as a country, our

:45:00. > :45:04.responsibility to help people who need support, but to do that, you

:45:05. > :45:08.need the means to do it. What concerns me is that, if you end up

:45:09. > :45:11.in a situation where you are cutting off opportunities for phones that

:45:12. > :45:16.generate wealth and therefore generate taxation, to pay for these

:45:17. > :45:20.things, -- firms then you are less likely to provide support in the

:45:21. > :45:24.future. That's why I think this approach is absolutely wrong. We

:45:25. > :45:27.know that people with disabilities, we know we've got an ageing

:45:28. > :45:32.population who require more medical care, we know we have are falling

:45:33. > :45:36.working age population. Why take that burden on 5 million people when

:45:37. > :45:41.it could be shared across 63 million? It

:45:42. > :45:42.it could be shared across 63 whatsoever. Isn't it more

:45:43. > :45:46.sustainable dramatist and draws on taxes from the whole of the UK

:45:47. > :45:53.rather than just those who pay in Scotland? Clearly not, because in

:45:54. > :45:57.your question, you gave the answer. There are 100,000 Scots with

:45:58. > :46:00.disabilities falling victim to the welfare reforms. Alistair Darling

:46:01. > :46:04.didn't bother to condemn, as he went on in his answer but I condemn the

:46:05. > :46:08.way people with disabilities are being treated and I think it's an

:46:09. > :46:11.indictment of the way that Westminster has handled Social

:46:12. > :46:16.Security. Yes, we have troubled economic times, but the mark of a

:46:17. > :46:21.Government of concern is when you are in difficult times, you don't

:46:22. > :46:25.take it out on the disabled and on families with children and impose a

:46:26. > :46:27.bedroom tax which must be the most ludicrous tax of all time.

:46:28. > :46:36.APPLAUSE When times are tough and cash is

:46:37. > :46:39.short, an independent Scotland may have to make some of the very

:46:40. > :46:43.difficult choices the UK Government is making at the moment.

:46:44. > :46:46.We made a choice in the Scottish Parliament for the Westminster

:46:47. > :46:49.introduced the bedroom tax and we had taking money out of other

:46:50. > :46:53.resources in parliament despite the fact we don't control Social

:46:54. > :46:57.Security, to compensate people for the ridiculous argument that if you

:46:58. > :47:01.have a disability and you need a spare room, a box room for your

:47:02. > :47:06.equipment, all of a sudden you're going to lose housing benefit, we

:47:07. > :47:09.had to take ?50 million to compensate in order to make sure

:47:10. > :47:16.that ordinary Scots didn't suffer all were penalised. If we controlled

:47:17. > :47:19.welfare, and introduced bedroom tax on the first place, wouldn't it be

:47:20. > :47:23.better? APPLAUSE

:47:24. > :47:29.The bedroom tax is thoroughly bad in every respect for the bid needs to

:47:30. > :47:33.be repealed. And what's more, we have said if we

:47:34. > :48:08.are elected next year, not only will we repeal it,

:48:09. > :48:19.I want to go back to currency because on Sunday I read in the

:48:20. > :48:58.newspapers that... CROWD BOOS

:48:59. > :49:01.other options for Scotland, three Bs which I described. But which one?

:49:02. > :49:06.The flexible currency union Sweden and Norway have, the fixed exchange

:49:07. > :49:10.rate like Denmark, and Hong Kong has with the dollar and I pointed out,

:49:11. > :49:16.and thankfully you admitted in early on in this debate, we cannot be

:49:17. > :49:23.stopped from using the pound anyway. So, you see, three plan Bs,

:49:24. > :49:27.Alistair. The reason I'm raising it again is because the currency is the

:49:28. > :49:32.foundation of our economy, of what we have to do is save, the value of

:49:33. > :49:38.money, the interest rates, how much we can spend on things. I want you

:49:39. > :49:41.to contemplate the impossible. Ask yourself, you're wrong, you don't

:49:42. > :49:48.get the currency union, what is plan B? Even your insults have been

:49:49. > :49:52.retreaded from the last debate, Alistair, it's incredible. I set out

:49:53. > :49:57.what the options and explain him in great detail and I've asked the very

:49:58. > :50:02.obvious question to say why user adamant putting forward what's best

:50:03. > :50:06.for Scotland, I'm seeking a mandate from the people here, at home, I

:50:07. > :50:09.want a mandate so we can go in with the will of the Scottish people to

:50:10. > :50:14.have a common sense, common currency. If we get that mandolin,

:50:15. > :50:22.and we win, will you support that option? -- mandate. And it's bad for

:50:23. > :50:26.Scotland, for the UK. All I'm asking you, just oppose the one moment you

:50:27. > :50:33.didn't die currency union, it's not your money, it's everybody else's

:50:34. > :50:38.money, what is it? Our own currency? " and Mark? Your top adviser said we

:50:39. > :50:41.might have a Panamanian solution using the currency for a

:50:42. > :50:47.transitional period of six months. I don't want to be in Panama for six

:50:48. > :50:50.minutes. There's 190 countries in the world, range of currency

:50:51. > :50:55.options. An independent Scotland will be the first country in history

:50:56. > :50:58.way you describe all of the currency options as long. I am First Minister

:50:59. > :51:03.and I want to go into this referendum seeking a clear mandate

:51:04. > :51:07.from the Scottish people for the viewer been asked a number of times,

:51:08. > :51:18.if you win the referendum, I will accept the result. If the Yes side

:51:19. > :51:23.win, will you campaign against... This is... I will accept the result.

:51:24. > :51:26.With ballot papers going at the Day after tomorrow, people want to know

:51:27. > :51:31.what is going to happen to the money they have got, what currency will

:51:32. > :51:35.they have if they don't have a currency union? Jones answer the

:51:36. > :51:41.question. You admitted in the programme, you cannot stop us from

:51:42. > :51:45.using the pound. That is plan B, is it? I think there will be a currency

:51:46. > :51:49.union because if you go down the road of you denying as assets and

:51:50. > :51:53.the Bank of England, you end up being stuck with a debt, which you

:51:54. > :51:59.and the current Chancellor managed to accumulate 60% off. Will you be

:52:00. > :52:05.prepared to support this southern -- sovereign will of the Scottish

:52:06. > :52:09.people? Can we stop there for a second? I want questions from

:52:10. > :52:17.Alistair Darling and answers from the First Minister. Clearly I'm

:52:18. > :52:21.going to get nowhere with plan B. Let me ask you about another plan B,

:52:22. > :52:27.oil revenues for the we talked earlier at the fact North Sea oil

:52:28. > :52:32.revenues worth ?5 billion less than you expected last year which is more

:52:33. > :52:33.than we spend on the schools budget. In the UK, that can be dealt with.

:52:34. > :52:36.If you are an independent country and you just lost the equivalent of

:52:37. > :52:43.your schools budget, how would you make up the gap? Sir Donald Mackay,

:52:44. > :52:46.the advisers are 25 years to the Secretary of State for Scotland,

:52:47. > :52:50.wrote last week and said there's no black hole in the oil estimates, the

:52:51. > :52:58.UK Treasury and the OBR are missing a mountain. What if you are wrong

:52:59. > :53:02.about that? Sir Donald Mackay day that estimate last week. When you

:53:03. > :53:08.are Chancellor, you forecast the oil revenues would be 6,000,000,020 11

:53:09. > :53:30.and in fact, they turned out to be 11,000,000,020 11. So therefore,

:53:31. > :53:32.and in fact, they turned out to be why can't you do it? If you have

:53:33. > :53:39.lost ?6 billion of revenue because production goes down, how old you

:53:40. > :53:42.make up the difference when you have lost that much in just one year?

:53:43. > :53:47.Production is going up, Alistair, and that's why all companies have

:53:48. > :53:54.invested ?13 billion in the North Sea this year. They haven't invested

:53:55. > :54:00.?13 billion into the North Sea because... Nobody can hear if you

:54:01. > :54:03.are talking over each other. That investment is offset against

:54:04. > :54:07.revenues but they are investing it to increase production. We know why

:54:08. > :54:13.it is going up. Production will increase because 80%... We know

:54:14. > :54:20.production is going up because of the UK subsidy that is going into

:54:21. > :54:23.decommissioning but I'm asking you, in an independent Scotland, if you

:54:24. > :54:27.suddenly lost revenues, the equivalent of Evelyn be spend on

:54:28. > :54:32.skills, half on the health service, in just one year, how would you make

:54:33. > :54:38.up the difference? That's exactly why the butt for the fund

:54:39. > :54:48.stabilisation. Absolute nonsense. -- we put forward. Every other country

:54:49. > :54:55.has faced this for 22... Scotland has spent more than it has got.

:54:56. > :55:00.That's not true. It is true. Five years relative to the UK. Scotland

:55:01. > :55:09.was ?8 billion better off all would have been... Alistair, you know

:55:10. > :55:12.that. I know your figures. I have looked at your figures and you are

:55:13. > :55:16.spending more than you are bringing in. The difference is a lot of

:55:17. > :55:22.money. Alex Salmond, could you allow him to get another question? If

:55:23. > :55:29.you're hit with a ?6 billion deficit, held on, identified by the

:55:30. > :55:35.Institute for Fiscal Studies, which you quote in your White Paper, they

:55:36. > :55:41.say you have to find ?6 billion more over and above posterity, how would

:55:42. > :55:44.you find it? Are you going to raise taxes or cut services? Scotland will

:55:45. > :55:54.be a prosperous economy whether it's independent or not. You had a

:55:55. > :56:01.deficit of ?150 billion. Why can't you answer this question? Why can't

:56:02. > :56:08.you answer this question? In a few day's time... He can't answer basic

:56:09. > :56:12.questions on currencies. I'm afraid that's the end of your time.

:56:13. > :56:14.Alex Salmond you now have eight minutes to cross-examine

:56:15. > :56:22.How many children in Scotland is it estimated that will move into

:56:23. > :56:33.poverty by 2020, given that Welfare spending cuts? Too many

:56:34. > :56:34.children. How many? During the time in Government, we halve the number

:56:35. > :56:46.of people living in poverty. It in Government, we halve the number

:56:47. > :56:52.there are many. I wanted estimate. How many is the estimate? There are

:56:53. > :56:57.too many children living in poverty. Would it surprise you to

:56:58. > :57:01.know it is 100,000 extra children in Scotland moving into poverty with

:57:02. > :57:05.the welfare reforms? Do you think it's a price worth paying for the

:57:06. > :57:06.Westminster Government? I don't agree with

:57:07. > :57:15.Policy. I'm a Labour politician and I want to see Labour Government

:57:16. > :57:21.elected next year. The Labour Party... The Labour Party have said

:57:22. > :57:27.they will continue with the welfare policies of the Tory Government.

:57:28. > :57:32.100,000 children with disabilities, they've also been affected by the

:57:33. > :57:38.welfare reforms. Is that a price worth paying for Westminster? As I

:57:39. > :57:43.said earlier, as a society, we have an obligation to ensure we get

:57:44. > :57:47.children out of poverty. Hold on a minute and stop interrupting. That

:57:48. > :57:52.is why, for example, I found you, as a Government, have cut ?1 billion

:57:53. > :58:03.anti-poverty programmes, 130,000 college places... So don't lecture

:58:04. > :58:07.me on this. 100,000 people with disabilities. These are the people

:58:08. > :58:10.who are suffering from Westminster Government for the it's all very

:58:11. > :58:14.well for you decide your Labour politician, so why are you standing

:58:15. > :58:22.here defending Conservative policies on a joint platform? Come on! I

:58:23. > :58:28.disagree with a Conservative Government and with your Government.

:58:29. > :58:32.I believe across parties, we are better as part of the UK, just as

:58:33. > :58:35.you're in bed with some people who would normally want to be in bed

:58:36. > :58:40.with. On issues of welfare reform, and stopping poverty, making sure we

:58:41. > :58:48.are a fair and just society, I believe we can best do that with the

:58:49. > :58:53.resources I come from the UK and not the risks of independence. The NHS

:58:54. > :58:58.can't privatise the NHS directly in the way they do in England but what

:58:59. > :59:01.they can do is starved of resources, cutting back on the money provided

:59:02. > :59:08.to the Scottish Government. Do you think it's inaccurate statement? No,

:59:09. > :59:13.the amount of money being spent on the health service has increased

:59:14. > :59:18.throughout our tamers Government. That term as Government. Is it

:59:19. > :59:24.accurate? It's for you to decide how much it is spent on health in

:59:25. > :59:30.Scotland. It's a choice you make so don't blame other people for it. The

:59:31. > :59:33.Scottish Government, that's not from them but from Unison, so is that

:59:34. > :59:41.accurate? Given the health service... I know that. Everybody

:59:42. > :59:44.working in the NHS or using it want to see it properly funded and

:59:45. > :59:47.resourced but what I'm saying to you is the decision in Scotland is for

:59:48. > :59:52.you to decide what you want to spend it on the fourth of the cutbacks

:59:53. > :00:03.from Westminster, is at an accurate statement? Is an accurate statement?

:00:04. > :00:08.It is an accurate statement? Don't play games thon. This is not games.

:00:09. > :00:16.It's an important issue. This is the National Health Service. How much,

:00:17. > :00:19.Alastair? How much? How much do your colleagues estimate to replace the

:00:20. > :00:23.Trident nuclear system in monetary terms? I don't think you choose

:00:24. > :00:29.either between defending the country and spending money on the Health

:00:30. > :00:34.Service. How much? How much? The cost is over something like ?80

:00:35. > :00:39.million billion Do you think that's a sensible use of money? I don't

:00:40. > :00:44.think we choose between defending the country and the Health Service.

:00:45. > :00:51.We can choose how to spend it. Don't you lecture me on that. Why are you

:00:52. > :00:55.waving your hands at me? Is it a sensible, is that ?4 billion a

:00:56. > :00:57.sensible allocation of resources when the Health Service is under

:00:58. > :01:03.pressure? I understand there are many people who think Trident is

:01:04. > :01:07.wrong. Is it sensible? Hold on. Let him answer the question. I do think

:01:08. > :01:10.that we have an obligation to defend this country just as we have an

:01:11. > :01:15.obligation to make sure we spend money on public services. That's the

:01:16. > :01:19.answer to your question. Name three job-creating powers that the Better

:01:20. > :01:27.Together parties intend to give the Scottish Parliament? First of all,

:01:28. > :01:33.devolving the Work Programme - Job creating. The Work Programme does -

:01:34. > :01:38.The Work Programme pays people poverty wages. Wait till you get the

:01:39. > :01:45.answer. What three powers. The jobs programme first of all. Secondly,

:01:46. > :01:50.making sure we guarantee if they're unemployed, getting back into work,

:01:51. > :01:55.through work and training. How is that involved? And by maintaining

:01:56. > :01:58.jobs in the financial industry, food and drinks industry, that's the best

:01:59. > :02:03.guarantee of jobs in the future. Name two. If you can't name three,

:02:04. > :02:10.name two. I've told you in terms of the programme for devolving work.

:02:11. > :02:14.Name... Name one real job-creating Goodness me, power. Being part of

:02:15. > :02:20.the United Kingdom means that we get jobs in the financial services ind

:02:21. > :02:23.strip. What -- Industry. Jobs in science and re search and

:02:24. > :02:26.developments. What are the job-creating powers that you are

:02:27. > :02:32.going to guarantee to the Scottish Parliament if the 'No' campaign wins

:02:33. > :02:36.the day? The Scottish Parliament has full powers... We've got them

:02:37. > :02:40.already? In addition we have more powers in addition to welfare... Job

:02:41. > :02:45.creating, Alastair. They create jobs. The public service creates

:02:46. > :02:49.jobs. Critically what we do in the private sector as part of the United

:02:50. > :02:53.Kingdom creates jobs. I'm sorry you can't see that. I'm asking what

:02:54. > :02:56.powers are the Better Together parties going to transfer to the

:02:57. > :02:59.Scottish Parliament to enable us to create more jobs, name three

:03:00. > :03:05.job-creating powers. I've told you. No, you haven't. You mentioned the

:03:06. > :03:09.Work Programme, which pays people poverty wages. Job creating powers.

:03:10. > :03:11.I said staying part of the United Kingdom is the best way of

:03:12. > :03:16.guaranteeing jobs in the future. That's not the question. What will

:03:17. > :03:21.you transfer to the Scottish Parliament? That's the difference

:03:22. > :03:24.between you and me... You're promising a powerhouse Parliament

:03:25. > :03:30.name three job creating powers, it's a simple question. I've done that.

:03:31. > :03:34.All you've got to offer in the white paper is a promise that whatever the

:03:35. > :03:37.rate of corporation tax George Osborne thinks you'll make it 3 p

:03:38. > :03:40.cheaper. Isn't that great for Starbucks and Amazon. It doesn't do

:03:41. > :03:44.anything to create real jobs in this country. Name three that you're

:03:45. > :03:48.going to give to Scotland. What are they? I've told you. Being part of

:03:49. > :03:53.the United Kingdom gives the advantage of creating jobs in the

:03:54. > :03:57.financial services industry, food and drinks industry. What we have

:03:58. > :04:02.found out there's 100,000 children faced with poverty, 100,000 people

:04:03. > :04:06.with disability. They're going to spend ?4 billion a year on This is

:04:07. > :04:11.Trident. Absolute nonsense. He can't name three job creating powers for

:04:12. > :04:14.the Parliament. You just made a wonderful case for voting yes in

:04:15. > :04:18.this referendum. You can't tell me what money you'll be using, how can

:04:19. > :04:32.you guarantee anything in public services. The time is up. That's the

:04:33. > :04:32.end of the cross-examination section.

:04:33. > :04:38.Now one of the striking things about this referendum campaign is

:04:39. > :04:41.how many people have become actively engaged in the discussion

:04:42. > :04:44.With turnout predicted to be 80% or even higher in September's vote,

:04:45. > :04:47.town halls, offices and living rooms are alive with

:04:48. > :04:56.Everyone should be voting. It's a very important decision to make. I

:04:57. > :04:59.think this is an absolutely vital point in Scotland's history. It's

:05:00. > :05:02.important that everybody should exercise their right to vote. It is

:05:03. > :05:08.so important, it doesn't matter what your views are for yes or no, this

:05:09. > :05:13.is a one-time in a lifetime opportunity to vote. It's made me

:05:14. > :05:19.look at our system, our political system, what we need and really

:05:20. > :05:23.understand how this country works and what I want. This could be

:05:24. > :05:24.either the greatest moment in history of Scotland or the biggest

:05:25. > :05:32.down fall. history of Scotland or the biggest

:05:33. > :05:38.artist. I'm Val and I'm an employment advisor. I'm from

:05:39. > :05:42.Shetland. I work for Scottish national I'm 16 heritage. And a

:05:43. > :05:45.first-time voter. The referendum should be an opportunity to work out

:05:46. > :05:50.what sort of country we want to live in and what sort of society we want

:05:51. > :05:58.to live in. It's going to impact on employment. Funding for crofting is

:05:59. > :06:02.essential to make sure that our heritage continues, whoever wins.

:06:03. > :06:06.It's a once in a lifetime thing, get your opinions across and decide your

:06:07. > :06:11.own future. I'm proud to be Scottish and not in a tartan and kilt way.

:06:12. > :06:15.I'm proud of my country. I want to flourish. What it would entail and

:06:16. > :06:19.was going to happen in the future, especially for this little man.

:06:20. > :06:23.We'll be the ones trying to obtain mortgages, we'll be setting out

:06:24. > :06:30.careers and trying to start up families. I think it's historic. It

:06:31. > :06:33.will be a defining moment. It's not something that you'll be able to

:06:34. > :06:37.overturn in the next five years or ten years if we shouldly change our

:06:38. > :06:41.mind. It's -- should change our mind. It's important to get it

:06:42. > :06:44.right. It's wonderful that everybody in Scotland gets to choose

:06:45. > :06:50.regardless of which way it goes. Once and for all, it will be settled

:06:51. > :06:55.by the referendum. Two sections still to come. We're going to look

:06:56. > :07:01.at what happens after the referendum on September 18th. First we look at

:07:02. > :07:08.Scotland's place in the world. Another question now from Brian

:07:09. > :07:13.Connelly. I'd like to ask was going to happen when they scrap Trident?

:07:14. > :07:25.What's going to happen to the jobs, the people and the housing after

:07:26. > :07:28.it's scrapped? We quite identify certainly the policy of the SNP will

:07:29. > :07:33.be going into the first election for an independent Scotland to remove

:07:34. > :07:36.Trident from Scotland. Our policy is to have Faslane as the head quarter

:07:37. > :07:45.base of the Scottish Defence Forces, which will create a large number of

:07:46. > :07:49.jobs. The number of reports over the years have indicated that any other

:07:50. > :07:53.expenditure would generate more jobs than wasting billions on weapons of

:07:54. > :07:58.mass destruction that can never be used. But we are conscious of the

:07:59. > :08:02.spoments we have to the Faslane area -- responsibilities that we have to

:08:03. > :08:06.the Faslane area and we have identified it as the head of the

:08:07. > :08:10.Scottish Defence Forces. That policy removes weapons of mass destruction

:08:11. > :08:14.from Scotland because they are a phenomenal waste of money as well as

:08:15. > :08:18.being totally morally wrong, but also, a policy which gives our

:08:19. > :08:27.undertakings and our obligations to the local community in Faslane.

:08:28. > :08:33.APPLAUSE In a few years' time, there will be

:08:34. > :08:37.about just over 8,000 jobs employed in Faslane not just in relation to

:08:38. > :08:42.Trident, but also because it is due to become the UK centre for the

:08:43. > :08:47.non-Trident submarine fleet. If Trident were to go, then it's almost

:08:48. > :08:50.certain that the rest of the submarine work would go with it. The

:08:51. > :08:55.thing is integrated as you might expect. I think we can ill afford to

:08:56. > :08:58.lose another 8,000 jobs from the Clyde and the west of Scotland.

:08:59. > :09:02.Remember, there are other jobs, supply jobs and so on that are

:09:03. > :09:07.associated with that. Never mind the cost of moving it. I also, I mean I

:09:08. > :09:13.understand why people might feel very strongly or be against Trident

:09:14. > :09:16.missiles, but simply to tow them down the coast into England won't

:09:17. > :09:20.result them in being any less nuclear missiles. It won't reduce

:09:21. > :09:23.the amount of missiles around but it will cost us 8,000 jobs in the

:09:24. > :09:28.Clyde. It is fanciful to suggest that a much smaller Scottish Defence

:09:29. > :09:32.Force will require 8,000 jobs in one place. They've been promised in

:09:33. > :09:35.other parts of Scotland as well. I think it is the wrong thing to do

:09:36. > :09:40.both in military terms, but also in terms of jobs. We cannot afford to

:09:41. > :09:45.lose 8,000 jobs. It would be a massive blow to the west of

:09:46. > :09:49.Scotland. I'm going to broaden this out, but the question is about jobs.

:09:50. > :09:53.Alex Salmond, you talk about a ten-year transition to defence in

:09:54. > :09:57.Scotland, an independent Scotland. How long would it be before Faslane,

:09:58. > :10:02.under your proposals had as many people as it would have if we remain

:10:03. > :10:07.part of the United Kingdom? We intend to do two things immediately,

:10:08. > :10:10.because obviously we don't, we accept that Trident can't be removed

:10:11. > :10:15.immediately. We've given a five-and-a-half year time scale for

:10:16. > :10:19.the removal of Trident. As that is removed, it will enable us to build

:10:20. > :10:23.up conventional Scottish Defence Forces. Faslane will be two things:

:10:24. > :10:27.One, the headquarters of the Scottish Defence Force - But what

:10:28. > :10:31.point do you get the scale of employment that is equivalent to

:10:32. > :10:36.what is proposed as part of the UK? As terms of on-shore jobs, it's

:10:37. > :10:40.going to be very substantial indeed. When will it be the same? In terms

:10:41. > :10:44.of Royal Navy jobs, it will be considerable because currentsly we

:10:45. > :10:48.have no surface ships in Scotland. No major surface ships at all.

:10:49. > :10:54.Obviously, we should have surface ships to defend our oil insulations

:10:55. > :10:58.-- installations, so between the surface ships and the defence

:10:59. > :11:02.headquarters, over a period of time - What I'm asking is how long will

:11:03. > :11:05.it take? As you rightly say, we look at a ten-year period to build up

:11:06. > :11:10.Scottish Defence Forces. By the end of the ten years? Equally, it's

:11:11. > :11:14.five-and-a-half years, the time table for the removal of Trident

:11:15. > :11:18.nuclear submarines. Alastair says they're just going to tow them down

:11:19. > :11:22.to England - Is it ten years, is that your guarantee? I think people

:11:23. > :11:26.will make a choice, a sensible choice, it would be sensible not to

:11:27. > :11:30.proceed with the next generation of Trident submarines. It might be

:11:31. > :11:35.sensible not to spend ?100 billion over the next 40 years on this new

:11:36. > :11:41.generation - We're still on jobs at the moment. Thank you for that, for

:11:42. > :11:47.the moment. I go back briefly to the questioner on this, what's your

:11:48. > :11:53.perspective? Well, I think to spend, he's talking about saving money, to

:11:54. > :12:01.spend ?365 million to move Trident, and leave 7,000 people without jobs,

:12:02. > :12:08.plus there is no other organisation to take these people in. You're not

:12:09. > :12:13.re-assured that the jobs would be replaced by the Scottish Defence

:12:14. > :12:22.Force? Not at all. On the other side in the middle. Given that removal of

:12:23. > :12:25.Trident would open up the Clyde to allow oil exploration and drilling,

:12:26. > :12:30.surely that would go some way to replacing any jobs that were lost by

:12:31. > :12:35.removal of Trident? APPLAUSE

:12:36. > :12:38.Thank you for those points. The Royal United Services Institute,

:12:39. > :12:43.which is a respected think-tank, has said that it is possible to move

:12:44. > :12:48.Trident, but that it would take until 2028 to do so safely. That's

:12:49. > :12:54.eight years after your proposed time table, Alex Salmond. Would you be

:12:55. > :12:58.prepared - Let me correct you. They argued that to move Trident it would

:12:59. > :13:04.be possible within five-and-a-half years but said that the weapons

:13:05. > :13:08.establishment would take longer. As part of the overall piece. Yes, but

:13:09. > :13:12.you could move Trident in that time scale. I think five-and-a-half years

:13:13. > :13:16.is a reasonable time scale for us to put forward in the white paper.

:13:17. > :13:21.Would Scotland pay for the missiles and warheads to stay longer? I'm not

:13:22. > :13:25.arguing that at all. I'm just saying what the royal united institute

:13:26. > :13:32.said. Scotland is a country of 5. 25 million people. It is lewd cus to rb

:13:33. > :13:37.ludicrous to suggest that we should harbour weapons of mass destruction.

:13:38. > :13:40.APPLAUSE It's equally ludicrous that this

:13:41. > :13:45.will generate more jobs because nuclear weapons are hugely capital

:13:46. > :13:48.intensive. It is, after all, an Americans weapons system in the

:13:49. > :13:54.first place. Any conventional forces will generate more jobs than nuclear

:13:55. > :14:28.jobs ever could. There's two things here...

:14:29. > :14:32.nuclear allowance for that it is make any sense. In relation to the

:14:33. > :14:37.logistics, yes, the experts have said it could take until 2028 to

:14:38. > :14:42.move it which suggests it could be very expensive and take a long time

:14:43. > :14:46.but critically, in relation to the jobs, there are 8000 jobs at stake

:14:47. > :14:51.and they are 8000 jobs at stake and they're not all nuclear. The Trident

:14:52. > :14:56.missile systems, other submarines, the Clyde would become a centre for

:14:57. > :14:59.expertise. On top of that, there's a risk to the Royal Naval work on the

:15:00. > :15:04.Clyde because the Royal Navy does not build warships for foreign

:15:05. > :15:08.countries. It's a huge loss of jobs and expertise which I am not

:15:09. > :15:11.prepared to accept. What about the strategic side of all this? Lord

:15:12. > :15:17.Robertson, a former secretary-general of NATO, has said

:15:18. > :15:22.independence would be cataclysmic in part because it would force the rest

:15:23. > :15:26.of the UK to unilaterally disarm itself of nuclear weapons for them

:15:27. > :15:33.do you share that view? I think the rest of the UK come if they had to

:15:34. > :15:37.lose nuclear western buttons -- weapons, then that would happen. The

:15:38. > :15:41.greater concern is the disruption which takes place and the

:15:42. > :15:46.uncertainties. You talk about a Scottish defence Force. Frankly,

:15:47. > :15:48.they have not set out any coherent vision of what the Scottish defence

:15:49. > :15:52.Force would look like and that talk about spending rather less on it and

:15:53. > :15:57.as for the Trident savings, they will offer to spend it ten times

:15:58. > :16:06.over. You can't be spending money you haven't actually got. Trident is

:16:07. > :16:14.not at all like North Sea oil. It's a bonus for Scotland come in North

:16:15. > :16:21.Sea oil. It's nothing like... To compare oil and gas with weapons of

:16:22. > :16:25.mass destruction and to say they are comparable... Oil and gas is a bonus

:16:26. > :16:34.for Scotland. Trident as a burden on Scotland. How on earth can you say

:16:35. > :16:39.15% of your tax revenue is a bonus? It's an essential part. Don't

:16:40. > :16:42.mislead people. You may want independence at any price but the

:16:43. > :16:45.rest of us realise what you're doing is trying to make you can spend

:16:46. > :16:51.money over and over again but you can't do it. It's a fact. Let me

:16:52. > :16:55.pick up on another issue for the UK Government says it's not planning

:16:56. > :17:00.for independence, not planning to move Trident, no plans for the do

:17:01. > :17:04.you believe that? Yes, because the whole point of a referendum is to

:17:05. > :17:07.find out what the will of the Scottish people is. If Scotland vote

:17:08. > :17:11.for independence, then that is what's going to happen for them they

:17:12. > :17:16.will know if some bats: No going back. That's why the decision is so

:17:17. > :17:21.irreversible and why we've got to get it right and make it on the

:17:22. > :17:27.right basis with our eyes wide open. No fingers crossed, no guesswork, we

:17:28. > :17:30.have got to be absolutely sure. The reason they're not planning is is no

:17:31. > :17:37.mandate to do that, there's no mandate to do that. Gus O'Donnell,

:17:38. > :17:40.the former secretary to the UK Cabinet, said yesterday it was

:17:41. > :17:46.disgraceful the UK Government had not made any plans for a Yes vote

:17:47. > :17:50.for the death was agreed between the UK Government and the Scottish

:17:51. > :17:53.Government. Isn't it reasonable we should had plans in the UK

:17:54. > :17:58.Government because the sovereign will the people might be for a Yes

:17:59. > :18:04.vote? APPLAUSE

:18:05. > :18:08.I want to get back to my earlier question.

:18:09. > :18:12.Are you saying, despite the fact the Royal United services Institute

:18:13. > :18:15.reckon it could take until at least 2028 to remove nuclear weapons from

:18:16. > :18:20.Scotland, which is your policy, are you saying you would negotiate on

:18:21. > :18:25.that? I think five and a half years as a very reasonable timescale to

:18:26. > :18:30.offer, as we have done in the White Paper. Our objective is to rid

:18:31. > :18:34.Scotland of nuclear weapons. It's not a red line but open to

:18:35. > :18:40.negotiation? To be a member of NATO, and not be a nuclear country, the

:18:41. > :18:46.present secretary-general is the Prime Minister of Denmark on a

:18:47. > :18:51.country. The next one is Prime Minister of Norway, the other

:18:52. > :18:57.non-nuclear country. At the end of the day... Why is it not light froth

:18:58. > :19:04.pillowcase OK for Denmark and Norway? Now we we we move onto what

:19:05. > :19:12.happens after the referendum vote. The next question is submitted by

:19:13. > :19:16.e-mail from Craig Lister. He says, in his view, this has been a very

:19:17. > :19:20.divisive campaign, not just for politicians but for the Scottish

:19:21. > :19:24.population generally. He asks, how will Westminster and Holyrood work

:19:25. > :19:32.together after this vote and how will yes and no voters react to each

:19:33. > :19:36.other? If someone asked me six months ago has this campaign been

:19:37. > :19:40.divisive and will be difficult afterwards, I would've said not at

:19:41. > :19:43.all. It's like an election, people have their differences and that's

:19:44. > :19:48.it. It has got rather more heated in the last few weeks and that's not

:19:49. > :19:53.surprising because both sides are passionate about what they believe

:19:54. > :19:57.in and quite rightly arguing their case with vigour. I do think is

:19:58. > :20:01.important that, whatever the result, both sides have to accept it. One

:20:02. > :20:06.side will be disappointed, but we have to accept it. I hope people do

:20:07. > :20:10.reject independence and I hope therefore people will work together

:20:11. > :20:14.to build a better and stronger and a fairer Scotland, equally, if I lose

:20:15. > :20:21.and he wins, I have to accept that that is it. We're not going back.

:20:22. > :20:29.It's not just the politicians but frankly, for all of us. After one of

:20:30. > :20:31.the longest election campaign I've ever experienced, we have got to

:20:32. > :20:34.remember the next morning, we need to get on with things to make a

:20:35. > :20:38.difference to people in Scotland, we should look at the problems we have

:20:39. > :20:44.in the health service, education, transport, issues of social justice.

:20:45. > :20:46.They all needed tending to put up we all need to work closely together

:20:47. > :20:51.and I hope we can do that. APPLAUSE

:20:52. > :20:57.. Can I say, I agree with what he is

:20:58. > :21:01.just sat there. I don't agree about the campaign. I think this has been

:21:02. > :21:04.the most extraordinary energising campaign in Scottish history but

:21:05. > :21:08.people are going to vote that never thought about voting for a political

:21:09. > :21:13.party. I think we're heading to a percentage poll of 80 percentage

:21:14. > :21:19.plus for the the marvellous engagement in Scottish Parliament

:21:20. > :21:23.for them it is usually exciting time for them in the aftermath, this is

:21:24. > :21:27.operation to bring Scotland together, whatever the result. It's

:21:28. > :21:30.going to be close fought and we have to bring Scotland together so, as

:21:31. > :21:35.First Minister and pledging if it's a Yes Vote, I will accept the

:21:36. > :21:38.obligation to have 18 months of negotiation between the referendum

:21:39. > :21:44.and independence, not just involving the Scottish National Party and the

:21:45. > :21:49.wider Yes campaign, but the best talent of Scotland, as part of the

:21:50. > :21:54.negotiation team to get the best possible settlement for Scotland in

:21:55. > :21:59.the negotiations. Alistair and I, if he was available, I would invite him

:22:00. > :22:03.to join that negotiating team because once the referendum is over,

:22:04. > :22:04.it's a matter of team Scotland. That is what we need. Thank you.

:22:05. > :22:15.APPLAUSE Let me come back to that of the

:22:16. > :22:19.moment for the final thoughts from members of the audience. On happens

:22:20. > :22:26.after the boat. In the front row. That vote. You mention are going to

:22:27. > :22:29.have a turnout of about 80% but how do we make sure people stay as

:22:30. > :22:39.interested in politics regardless of the outcome? OK, the lady in the

:22:40. > :22:42.back. In the event of a No vote, can Mr Darling tonne of what further

:22:43. > :22:52.powers he'll become painful for Scotland? I think, so far, a lot of

:22:53. > :22:58.the points I Better Together focused on the risks for Scotland but there

:22:59. > :23:05.is no strong case being made to meet about no. The gentleman just behind

:23:06. > :23:08.you. Throughout this night, Mr Darling has stressed Scotland should

:23:09. > :23:12.not be relying on its oil and yet, your Government from Westminster

:23:13. > :23:17.under the banner of the UK took Scotland into an illegal war for oil

:23:18. > :23:24.and Scottish men and women died for that. Thank you. One final point.

:23:25. > :23:29.The lady with the glasses. I think the fundamental difference is

:23:30. > :23:31.The lady with the glasses. I think the Yes campaign are fighting for

:23:32. > :23:38.the future of Scotland and Alistair Darling are fighting passionate for

:23:39. > :23:42.their jobs. Thank you for those contributions. Alistair Darling, you

:23:43. > :23:49.can pick up those points first of all. Briefly. I suspect the last

:23:50. > :23:54.spoken I'm not going to win you over I think you're committed on the

:23:55. > :23:57.other side but this isn't about me or him but about our children and

:23:58. > :24:02.the generations that come after that. That's why we need to make the

:24:03. > :24:06.decision, to make sure we make the right decision on September the

:24:07. > :24:08.18th. Can I also take up the point from the gentleman there. I am

:24:09. > :24:13.passionate about the case for us being part of the UK because of the

:24:14. > :24:20.jobs, the opportunities as one of the security which comes. I thought

:24:21. > :24:23.was great questions here but I can address this gentleman that was

:24:24. > :24:28.questioned about how we can sustain the engagement, I think one

:24:29. > :24:29.possibility is if it is a Yes vote, the formation of the Constitution

:24:30. > :25:05.for an independent Scotland, the nation, and few societies

:25:06. > :25:07.anywhere on earth have secured this opportunity to vote themselves into

:25:08. > :25:12.independence. This is an opportunity peacefully at the ballot box, in a

:25:13. > :25:17.process agreed and consented, and opportunity which may not come our

:25:18. > :25:20.way again. So when we post about a ballot in the next few days and go

:25:21. > :25:26.to the polling stations, we will take the future of our country into

:25:27. > :25:29.our hands and have opportunities as an independent country and a means

:25:30. > :25:32.of taking advantage of it, challenges as an independent

:25:33. > :25:38.country, and we have got to rise to these challenges to solve them. In

:25:39. > :25:42.contrast, all of the No campaign is absolutely nothing positive to say

:25:43. > :25:48.about the future of this country. In reality, there is only one thing we

:25:49. > :25:52.can guarantee and this is what a Yes vote can guarantee, each and every

:25:53. > :25:56.election in an independent Scotland, we will get the Government we vote

:25:57. > :26:01.for. The choices of other people of Scotland make will be reflected in

:26:02. > :26:04.policy and that means what policies and the position of Scotland will be

:26:05. > :26:08.placed in Scottish hands. This referendum is not about me and

:26:09. > :26:13.Alistair and the political parties or the newspapers or anything, but

:26:14. > :26:17.about the future of Scotland. And the future of Scotland should be

:26:18. > :26:20.hands of the people of Scotland. It's about believing that we can

:26:21. > :26:26.govern ourselves better than anyone else can. We don't need to rise to

:26:27. > :26:30.be a nation again. The only have to vote to believe in ourselves for

:26:31. > :26:34.them this is our time, our moment, let's seize it with both hands.

:26:35. > :26:42.CHEERING Let's hear now from Alistair

:26:43. > :26:47.Darling. You know, the country the size of Scotland can compare to what

:26:48. > :26:52.Scotland has done, the successes of engineering, invention, medicine,

:26:53. > :26:55.Scotland gave the world the age of Enlightenment. Of course, we could

:26:56. > :27:01.go it alone but I don't believe we would be as successful as Scotland

:27:02. > :27:07.will be as part of the UK. I believe we will do better, prosper together,

:27:08. > :27:10.by building on the strengths as well in Scotland as well as being part of

:27:11. > :27:15.a larger United Kingdom. Yes, I raised the issue of currency again

:27:16. > :27:20.tonight because any country's starting point is currency, money,

:27:21. > :27:23.just as every household depends upon money and uncertainty about currency

:27:24. > :27:28.can bring a country to its knees. I know there are some who are thinking

:27:29. > :27:32.about giving independence a chance. But when we can't be told about the

:27:33. > :27:37.currency, I don't think that can be trusted. And frankly, scare stories

:27:38. > :27:41.about the National Health Service I think are beneath contempt. We have

:27:42. > :27:44.now had three and a half hours of prime television time when we have

:27:45. > :27:48.debated and I still haven't heard a straight answer to a simple

:27:49. > :27:55.question. Alex Salmond says you and I don't need to know what the plan

:27:56. > :27:58.beers. Yes, we do. We do need to know for that we do not need to

:27:59. > :28:04.divide these islands into separate states in order to assert our

:28:05. > :28:07.identity. We can have the best world with as it is being taken here in

:28:08. > :28:13.Scotland backed up by the strength and security provided by the UK --

:28:14. > :28:18.plan Bs. I say we have no options as than to say politely, respectfully

:28:19. > :28:21.and family, No, Thanks to independence.

:28:22. > :28:26.APPLAUSE That is the end of our time.

:28:27. > :28:30.All that remains is for me to thank Alistair Darling and Alex Salmond,

:28:31. > :28:35.to thank our audience in Glasgow and to thank you for being with us for

:28:36. > :28:40.this debate tonight. It continues across the BBC and radio Scotland

:28:41. > :28:55.and on BBC Two Scotland but from all of us here in the magnificent

:28:56. > :29:00.surroundings of Kelvingrove, good night.