:00:10. > :00:15.36 hours from now, the future of the United Kingdom will be decided as
:00:16. > :00:19.Scotland votes on whether to become an independent country. For months,
:00:20. > :00:26.the argument over this issue has been raging here in Scotland. But
:00:27. > :00:28.it's only now as the polls show the vote narrowing that the significance
:00:29. > :00:32.for the whole United Kingdom has become apparent for our economic
:00:33. > :00:36.future, our position in the world. I've been talking to two of the
:00:37. > :00:39.protagonists in this issue. Alex Salmond, First Minister of Scotland,
:00:40. > :00:43.leader of the "yes" campaign and former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown,
:00:44. > :01:09.who wants Scotland to vote no and is offering instead home rule.
:01:10. > :01:18.I'm joined in Edinburgh by the former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown.
:01:19. > :01:21.Mr Brown, many people on the "no" side acknowledge that an independent
:01:22. > :01:26.Scotland can survive and even prosper in the long run. Do you
:01:27. > :01:29.subscribe to that view? I would hope that under any circumstances my
:01:30. > :01:32.country, Scotland, could do well, but it will not do as well under an
:01:33. > :01:37.independent Scotland. It's absolutely clear. We have seen all
:01:38. > :01:41.the evidence now. The uncertainty over the currency. We have seen the
:01:42. > :01:45.problem over the debt default. We have seen the problem over higher
:01:46. > :01:50.prices in the shops. We have seen the problem now over higher interest
:01:51. > :01:55.rates. We know that there's... Do you believe all of that? I believe
:01:56. > :02:00.all of it. You cannot ignore all of the experts all of the time. Let's
:02:01. > :02:04.take one issue, debt default. Alex Salmond said that because England
:02:05. > :02:07.would not deal with it, he would default on his debts. What message
:02:08. > :02:10.does that send out? Everybody watching this programme in any part
:02:11. > :02:15.of the United Kingdom, if you say you're not going to pay your debts,
:02:16. > :02:18.nobody lends to you. The debts belong to England. The Bank of
:02:19. > :02:21.England has said it will back the debts? The Bank of England will pay
:02:22. > :02:28.out. Scotland has no obligation to the debt. He is then known as a
:02:29. > :02:34.defaulter, someone who goes back on debts and refuses to pay. People
:02:35. > :02:37.don't lend and interest rates go up and sometimes you are charged more
:02:38. > :02:42.if you refuse. I think that's the most irresponsible statement of the
:02:43. > :02:47.campaign, because he's sending a message to the whole of the
:02:48. > :02:50.international community, Scotland is volunteering it might default. Look
:02:51. > :02:54.around at everything else, uncertainty over the currency. Look
:02:55. > :03:00.at interest rates, they're bound to go up. Food prices. Tesco, trex,
:03:01. > :03:04.charges -- for example, charges 12% more in southern Ireland and
:03:05. > :03:08.inevitably if you are a smaller economy and you have to have the
:03:09. > :03:14.loss of the cross-subsidy of prices the prices will go up. Now you are
:03:15. > :03:17.all doom and gloom. You began by saying you would agree with people
:03:18. > :03:22.who said an independent Scotland would triumph. Hold on, I'm a proud
:03:23. > :03:27.Scot. When I left Downing Street I came home to Scotland. My children
:03:28. > :03:36.are brought up here. My children are at school here. I want to see a pat
:03:37. > :03:39.oTic -- patriotic vision of Scotland, proud of identity and
:03:40. > :03:43.history and institutions, the churches and education. Proud also
:03:44. > :03:46.of our Scottish Parliament that we created, the Labour Party actually
:03:47. > :03:49.created. Proud we have agreed there are to be more powers for that
:03:50. > :03:54.Parliament, but proud also that we found a way, we led the way as
:03:55. > :03:57.Scots, in sharing and pooling resources across the whole of the
:03:58. > :04:02.United Kingdom so we have UK pensions, a UK welfare state and
:04:03. > :04:06.currency and UK defence. I'm proud that as a nation we have our own
:04:07. > :04:09.Parliament, but at the same time, we get the benefit from something I
:04:10. > :04:13.don't think people in Scotland want to lose. They don't want to lose UK
:04:14. > :04:16.pensions, but that's independence. They don't want to lose the pound,
:04:17. > :04:21.but that's the effect of independence. I have to say to
:04:22. > :04:26.people, I want Scotland to be successful at all times. To be
:04:27. > :04:29.honest, I'm addressing Scottish voters here, my fellow Scots and I
:04:30. > :04:33.could talk at any time to talk about the English and Welsh rple
:04:34. > :04:37.indications, but -- ramifications, but I want to say I've looked at
:04:38. > :04:41.this very carefully and I know the risks that are associated with this
:04:42. > :04:45.proposition. I know also that Alex Salmond has not thought this through
:04:46. > :04:48.and if you have any doubts you've got no alternative, if you are
:04:49. > :04:51.thinking of your children and your children's children, because this is
:04:52. > :04:57.a vote for future generations. You have no alternative. This is not a
:04:58. > :05:00.party political broadcast for the "no" campaign. This is being seen
:05:01. > :05:06.throughout the United Kingdom and the question I want to ask you, on
:05:07. > :05:09.behalf... But David. On behalf of the whole of the United Kingdom,
:05:10. > :05:15.what is the value of a union when you appear to be at this stage,
:05:16. > :05:19.having to cajole even bribe Scottish voters to stay part of it? Because
:05:20. > :05:23.sometimes people have to be reminded, when change is in the air,
:05:24. > :05:28.everywhere I go, people want change in Scotland. You can have the right
:05:29. > :05:31.or wrong kind of change and in your desire to can make the wrong
:05:32. > :05:35.decision. I've got to people reminding people that the sharing
:05:36. > :05:39.that takes place, the co-operation across the United Kingdom, has
:05:40. > :05:44.brought immense benefits not just in war time when we fought fascism, but
:05:45. > :05:49.in building the Health Service and welfare state and pensions. Scotland
:05:50. > :05:53.gets huge benefits, so too does the rest of the country. Now you are in
:05:54. > :05:58.the bribery business. You have come up with proposals for what you call
:05:59. > :06:02.home rule. This very day, the three party leaders have said they back
:06:03. > :06:07.what you have said apparently now the leader of this campaign, not
:06:08. > :06:12.Alistair Darling. Not at all. You are the person who has been leading
:06:13. > :06:17.for the last two weeks and it looks like a last-minute panic to bribe
:06:18. > :06:22.Scotland to stick with it. I've been saying this for some time now. I
:06:23. > :06:26.wrote a book months ago and I have been giving speeches. This is a new
:06:27. > :06:32.world. We are in the 21st century and we have to reshape the union, so
:06:33. > :06:35.we have patriotic Scots proud of their institutions, wanting to make
:06:36. > :06:38.decisions closer to home, but also wanting to know that they can
:06:39. > :06:42.continue to be part of a sharing process within the United Kingdom.
:06:43. > :06:45.And I think that's the way forward. The alternative is this - you break
:06:46. > :06:49.every single political link with the United Kingdom. You break it on
:06:50. > :06:52.pensions, passports, the pound, on everything and I don't think that's
:06:53. > :06:56.where people want to be. They want change and I can see why people want
:06:57. > :07:02.change, but they want the right kind of change and I've had a duty to
:07:03. > :07:05.point out and to ask the party leaders to make it clear, three
:07:06. > :07:09.things, the Parliament will have the powers promised and that will be
:07:10. > :07:12.legislated soon. That's at no cost to the rest of the United Kingdom.
:07:13. > :07:17.Fairness is the principle that governs the United Kingdom, equity
:07:18. > :07:19.between the regions and nations and anybody watching this would agree
:07:20. > :07:23.that the United Kingdom must be based on fairness and equity. Then
:07:24. > :07:28.I've had to say, because of the charges that have been made by the
:07:29. > :07:33.SNP that the NHS is in danger if you don't have separation, I've got to
:07:34. > :07:36.point out and ask the leaders to point out, the Barnet formula that
:07:37. > :07:41.allocates resources will continue and also the Scottish Parliament has
:07:42. > :07:46.powers if it wishes to do, so ask the Scottish people to raise revenue
:07:47. > :07:50.so that you can have a final say in Scotland over how much to spend. We
:07:51. > :07:57.have had to nail that lie and that's what he's done today. I'll come to
:07:58. > :08:00.the practical politics of that in a moment, but sticking with the idea
:08:01. > :08:03.of the union, because when you became Prime Minister,
:08:04. > :08:07.interestingly, you seemed to spot a problem here. And you had a period
:08:08. > :08:10.when you were talking about increasing a sense of Britishness in
:08:11. > :08:14.the United Kingdom. You wanted to have a British national day, people
:08:15. > :08:20.laughed at the proposal and people should hoist the Union flag. This is
:08:21. > :08:25.a long-standing problem about separation from the United Kingdom?
:08:26. > :08:29.It's to the just -- it's not just, it's worse and worse and worse? No,
:08:30. > :08:34.in every generation you have to rethink your relationships. We have
:08:35. > :08:37.four nations. We have got this unique multi-national partnership.
:08:38. > :08:41.Go any place in the world, whether you go to Europe and look at France
:08:42. > :08:46.and Germany or Australia and New Zealand or whether you go even to
:08:47. > :08:49.the States within America, there are no four nations on Earth that have
:08:50. > :08:54.managed to combine and share resources and to have the same
:08:55. > :08:59.economic and social lives for each citizen, irrespective of your
:09:00. > :09:03.nationality that Britain has. We should be proud that we persuaded
:09:04. > :09:07.people to create a welfare state and persuaded of the benefits of UK
:09:08. > :09:12.pensions and this is something I don't think we should want to lose.
:09:13. > :09:16.That's what uphold the strong sense that Britain a huge contribution to
:09:17. > :09:19.make, but I also understand that in England and Wales and Northern
:09:20. > :09:24.Ireland as well as in Scotland, there is strong a sense sense of
:09:25. > :09:27.patriotic pride in the culture and traditions and institutions, so
:09:28. > :09:32.every generation we have got to find a way of combining the strong sense
:09:33. > :09:37.of identity that exists in each nation, with the desire, I believe,
:09:38. > :09:40.the willingness, to share as part of the United Kingdom and no set of
:09:41. > :09:44.countries in the world has managed to do what we have done. It is the
:09:45. > :09:47.most successful multi-national partnership in history and that's
:09:48. > :09:51.why I want to keep it, but keep it because I know also it's got
:09:52. > :09:57.benefits for each of the nations. Why have the people who have said in
:09:58. > :10:00.your own party and in the Conservative, that devolution of any
:10:01. > :10:05.kind would be a slippery slope towards independence? Why are they
:10:06. > :10:10.apparently being proved right in this sense, that the move towards
:10:11. > :10:15.independence has grown in Scotland over the years until you now reach a
:10:16. > :10:20.kind of 50/50, we don't know until Friday morning how Scotland has
:10:21. > :10:25.voted, but why has that happened? The idea was that devolution would
:10:26. > :10:28.solve this problem. They are not right, because if you held a poll
:10:29. > :10:30.throughout the whole of the United Kingdom, but particularly in
:10:31. > :10:35.Scotland, because I'm addressing directly my fellow Scots this
:10:36. > :10:38.evening, the vast majority would want to keep the UK pension. The
:10:39. > :10:45.vast majority want to keep the pound. The vast majority want to
:10:46. > :10:51.keep the UK funding. They want -- Why not vote no? They are going to
:10:52. > :10:59.vote no. The vast majority will vote no? I believe the vast majority will
:11:00. > :11:02.vote no. The vast majority want to keep the welfare state and pensions
:11:03. > :11:07.and pound and as a result I believe I can persuade these people to vote
:11:08. > :11:12.no. They want change. They want a strong Scottish Parliament. You and
:11:13. > :11:16.anybody in the English regions would not wish to deny the Scots or the
:11:17. > :11:22.Welsh or the Northern Ireland people the power to make their own
:11:23. > :11:26.decisions on transport, environment, health, housing and education and
:11:27. > :11:29.universities. These are big decisions. Perhaps in 1997 we could
:11:30. > :11:34.have given more powers to the Scottish Parliament. Now more powers
:11:35. > :11:39.are coming. But remember, that is as part of the United Kingdom. Keeping
:11:40. > :11:44.the principles that underlie the United Kingdom, which is said today
:11:45. > :11:50.equity between the regions, so we can maximise security and
:11:51. > :11:55.opportunity for all. It's curious. I notice the Labour Daily Record here
:11:56. > :11:59.today gives all the details and then says, the three leaders saying, "We
:12:00. > :12:02.will honour the principles and values, not only before the
:12:03. > :12:07.referendum, but after." That is a bit of a weird thing to say? Not
:12:08. > :12:11.only until Thursday, but on Friday morning too? I think they want to
:12:12. > :12:15.make it clear that even if there is a distrust in the political system,
:12:16. > :12:18.even if people think that Westminster is not a great place for
:12:19. > :12:24.them to look to, that people have had to think long and hard about
:12:25. > :12:28.this. And these are vows that are set in stone now, that are important
:12:29. > :12:31.for the future not just of Scotland, but the United Kingdom. I could
:12:32. > :12:36.illustrate that by talking about the Health Service if you wish me to do
:12:37. > :12:41.so. I'm interesting though just in sticking to the idea for one moment
:12:42. > :12:47.of whether in your view, as a Scott -- Scot, over your lifetime as a
:12:48. > :12:51.politician, you have seen England, Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland
:12:52. > :12:55.drifting apart, that the tendency has been that, that's why you have
:12:56. > :13:01.to do Britishness and there is a tendency to pull apart? You see,
:13:02. > :13:04.since the union of 1707 and I have had time for reflection, as you
:13:05. > :13:07.might understand, since I lost power, there is always a strong
:13:08. > :13:11.sense of Scottish identity. It's never gone. It's the myth that
:13:12. > :13:16.somehow it would be destroyed by the union. In fact, it's strong in our
:13:17. > :13:19.institutions and sporting institutions and culture and
:13:20. > :13:26.history. In the 20th century and 21st, people are looking for a
:13:27. > :13:29.balance, the recognition of the identity and also preparing to
:13:30. > :13:34.co-operate for common and mutual services and mutual needs. I think
:13:35. > :13:39.you misunderstand. You are majjing either or. I'm saying that the
:13:40. > :13:43.fallacy is to put Scotland against Britain. These are two visions, one
:13:44. > :13:47.a strong Scottish Parliament within Britain and that's what I support
:13:48. > :13:51.and that's why I'm calling for a "no" vote and the other vision is of
:13:52. > :13:57.Scotland apart from Britain, where we break every single link and I
:13:58. > :14:03.went through all the risks that that could accompany and that's not what
:14:04. > :14:10.people who are desperate for change in Scotland. I don't think they want
:14:11. > :14:15.to break all the links. You made a speech a couple of years back in
:14:16. > :14:21.memory of Donald Dewar, the distinguished Scot and you
:14:22. > :14:26.distinguished there between Scotland having community values and England
:14:27. > :14:30.having individualism as a value. Those are two conflicting ideas. I
:14:31. > :14:36.actually said, if you look at the final points I made, I said it's the
:14:37. > :14:40.come bip nation of -- combination of the Scotland and English support for
:14:41. > :14:44.liberty that has made the union of Britain what it is. You have this
:14:45. > :14:48.great coming together of two great ideas in history, but when it comes
:14:49. > :14:52.down in practice to what that means, if you take support for the Health
:14:53. > :14:56.Service in the public sector, free at the point of need, 90% of English
:14:57. > :15:01.people, 90% of Scottish people believe exactly the same. When you
:15:02. > :15:04.go through the actual detail of individual policies about taxation,
:15:05. > :15:08.or about the public services, I find that most people in England and
:15:09. > :15:12.Scotland believe the same. Yes, we come from different traditions, but
:15:13. > :15:18.yes also we have absorbed them, so Scotland came to recognise the value
:15:19. > :15:25.of liberty. At some points in history we were quite an
:15:26. > :15:28.authoritarian country. Also, England, Churchill talked about the
:15:29. > :15:35.English sense of fair play and I think that was in part the merging
:15:36. > :15:37.of the tradition of fairness and egalitarianism and liberty that came
:15:38. > :15:42.from the English debate at the time of the civil war. We have come
:15:43. > :15:45.together. There is a cross-fertilisation and I think
:15:46. > :15:49.people in England and Wales and Northern Ireland and also in many
:15:50. > :15:50.cases, share the same approach to most of the issues that I'm talking
:15:51. > :16:07.about. Why did everyone assume the vote was
:16:08. > :16:15.going to be no thanks in the first place? Why has it narrowed so much?
:16:16. > :16:20.What have people seem in Salmond 's argument that has appealed? People
:16:21. > :16:26.want change. Item they want the change he is offering. They want
:16:27. > :16:31.change. They are unhappy with the position of the global economy,
:16:32. > :16:35.status and prospects for children. They share that with people in
:16:36. > :16:39.England and Wales as well. Until a few weeks ago, perhaps they thought
:16:40. > :16:44.the only way they could achieve change was going for independence.
:16:45. > :16:49.Now they know it is crucial you have a stronger Scottish Parliament, part
:16:50. > :16:53.of the United Kingdom. That was always my view. Why did you leave it
:16:54. > :16:59.so late to announce? With respect, it was two weeks ago that you
:17:00. > :17:05.entered centre stage and have been centrestage ever since, explaining
:17:06. > :17:08.these things you may have been talking about in meetings over
:17:09. > :17:12.Scotland but nobody had heard it. You have come up from London for a
:17:13. > :17:17.day trip. All right comic you have come up for two days. I have been
:17:18. > :17:21.speaking in Scotland over these last few years. It may not have been
:17:22. > :17:30.reported in London newspapers but it is in Scotland. Today it has been
:17:31. > :17:34.done with a clear resolution of the individual parties, I have said we
:17:35. > :17:40.put in print what we have said to each other. We set up a commission
:17:41. > :17:44.of the Labour Party to review devolution. I believe that people
:17:45. > :17:49.understand now, and take some people to get the message, that there is
:17:50. > :17:52.change coming. Change is definitely coming and it is a stronger Scottish
:17:53. > :18:01.parliament, part of the United Kingdom. We do not lose what we have
:18:02. > :18:07.got. The pensions are UK, defence we have not talked about. Military, air
:18:08. > :18:11.force, army, navy. That is still part of the UK. People do not want
:18:12. > :18:17.that change. When people say they have that change as part of the
:18:18. > :18:23.United Kingdom they will reject the risks that a company with breaking
:18:24. > :18:27.links. You are an old Labour man. What about the risks of having
:18:28. > :18:32.another Conservative government dominating Scotland? There are many
:18:33. > :18:37.people in Scotland, there is one Tory MP in Scotland, who want to see
:18:38. > :18:41.the back of the Tory Party. They remember the poll tax, the bedroom
:18:42. > :18:54.tax. At is what they want in Scotland. We will never have Tories
:18:55. > :18:57.in Westminster deciding our fate. The Conservatives are in power
:18:58. > :19:07.because of a deal with the Liberal Democrats. Three quarters of their
:19:08. > :19:12.life has been under a Labour government. The idea that Labour
:19:13. > :19:14.cannot win an election and we are permanently having Conservative
:19:15. > :19:20.governments, it was exploded when we won the biggest majority of any
:19:21. > :19:26.government at any time. That can easily happen again. Why struggle we
:19:27. > :19:33.are not saying there will -- you are not saying there will never be a
:19:34. > :19:36.Conservative majority... That is what Mister Better Together seems to
:19:37. > :19:43.be saying. If people are looking to the Scottish National Party, they
:19:44. > :19:51.need to look no further than the manifesto. -- that is what Mister
:19:52. > :19:58.Salmond seems to be saying. There is no proposal for a bankers bonus tax.
:19:59. > :20:03.The only tax proposal is to give a cut in tax to the richest companies.
:20:04. > :20:07.It is the directors of the richest utilities that get a better fit. The
:20:08. > :20:11.Scottish National party are not offering a route to social justice,
:20:12. > :20:19.only the Labour Party under a Labour government is offering maps. An
:20:20. > :20:25.independent Scotland would have a permanent Labour government? I did
:20:26. > :20:27.not say that. Those people who take Scotland to independence,
:20:28. > :20:33.nationalist parties remain in being. That is what has happened in
:20:34. > :20:37.Ireland. Do not believe that the Scottish National party can offer
:20:38. > :20:40.you social justice. Do not believe it is impossible to have a Labour
:20:41. > :20:44.government in the rest of the country because the evidence is
:20:45. > :20:49.pointing towards that. The biggest argument is not these things. You
:20:50. > :20:55.cannot give up because you do not like 1 Conservative politician or a
:20:56. > :21:00.1 conservative policies on the system of sharing resources. It is
:21:01. > :21:04.of huge benefit to Scotland. I defend it in principle because it is
:21:05. > :21:11.based on allocating resources dependent on me. Scotland gets ?200
:21:12. > :21:16.per pension or because we have got more pensioners with greater needs
:21:17. > :21:26.and more disabilities. 900 million to 1000 million more comes from the
:21:27. > :21:32.Barnett formula. We have historically had more pensioners and
:21:33. > :21:39.greater needs. I justifies these -- justify these additional
:21:40. > :21:43.expenditures. What is being committed to by the leaders today in
:21:44. > :21:48.this bout that they support these principles of equity and Scotland
:21:49. > :21:53.has benefited from it. In my view, we would be throwing away something
:21:54. > :22:01.that is, in principle, the right basis for forming alliances and
:22:02. > :22:06.cooperating. If Scotland were independent, 40% of Scotland voted
:22:07. > :22:13.Labour in the last election. If Scotland were independent, the
:22:14. > :22:20.chance to have socialism and labour is infinitely greater than if they
:22:21. > :22:27.remain run by the Parliament at Westminster. If you vote independent
:22:28. > :22:36.comic you throw away something that is irreplaceable. You cannot bring
:22:37. > :22:41.it back. We share across the whole of the regions and nations. 5
:22:42. > :22:51.million people can pool resources. You cannot achieve what can be
:22:52. > :22:53.achieved like that. There will be no Conservative government investment
:22:54. > :22:58.if the people of England and Scotland combined disabling really
:22:59. > :23:06.say about some of their policies. Waitangi cannot say that. There will
:23:07. > :23:14.be no Conservative government at the next election. -- you cannot say
:23:15. > :23:20.that. You are thinking 50 years, 100 years ahead. The principle I am
:23:21. > :23:24.talking about will survive one or 2 Conservative governments. The
:23:25. > :23:28.principle will survive a few Conservative politicians who annoy
:23:29. > :23:32.people. The principle is bigger than me as an individual or one
:23:33. > :23:35.particular period in time. I do not think there will be another
:23:36. > :23:39.Conservative government. I believe the Scottish National party cannot
:23:40. > :23:43.produce the progressive policies we are talking about. Underlying my
:23:44. > :23:47.argument is a big principle, what is the point of giving up a system of
:23:48. > :23:53.sharing and cooperating which has been of great use to the United
:23:54. > :23:59.Kingdom not only in defence and security but in welfare. You cannot
:24:00. > :24:03.replicate that system of fairness in a smaller nation when you have got
:24:04. > :24:07.it across 63,000,000 people who are prepared to share and cooperate for
:24:08. > :24:11.the common good. That is the principle that underlies the United
:24:12. > :24:15.Kingdom. It would be a shame to send out a message to the world that,
:24:16. > :24:20.after all these years of building it up, when countries struggle to find
:24:21. > :24:24.a way of living side-by-side, we could not continue it into the
:24:25. > :24:32.future. I think it would be disastrous for us to destroy. You
:24:33. > :24:36.have been talking in the last couple of weeks about home rule. You have
:24:37. > :24:40.these 3 party leaders today signing this thing, saying they would go
:24:41. > :24:48.along with it all. What persuades you they will get it through the
:24:49. > :24:56.House of Commons? What persuades English, Welsh and Irish voters, we
:24:57. > :25:03.will go for giving that part of the United Kingdom that degree of
:25:04. > :25:09.independence and freedom? I think there is a movement for change in
:25:10. > :25:12.the United Kingdom. I have always believed undiluted Westminster
:25:13. > :25:19.sovereignty is not the way of expressing the needs and aspirations
:25:20. > :25:28.of people. Scotland may have led the way. Northern Ireland once
:25:29. > :25:33.devolution as well. London has already gone. Devolution. I believe
:25:34. > :25:37.there is a movement of change taking place which encourages the regions
:25:38. > :25:41.to want more powers. Those people in Westminster looking at that will see
:25:42. > :25:45.this as not just something specifically for Scotland. Yesterday
:25:46. > :25:49.I said my fairness principle is not at the expense of the regions and
:25:50. > :25:56.nations, it was a challenge to London centralisation. Do you think
:25:57. > :26:00.there will not be hostility in England, the largest country in the
:26:01. > :26:07.United Kingdom, to these measures that you are offering Scotland? It
:26:08. > :26:14.does seem to be that you are giving Scotland everything they want? Most
:26:15. > :26:19.people would subscribe that we are not advocating fairness at the
:26:20. > :26:25.expense of someone else. The greatest beneficiaries of the
:26:26. > :26:33.pension system are the north-east of England. You do not understand, it
:26:34. > :26:37.is right because it is based on need. There are greater needs
:26:38. > :26:41.because they are 3rd of the land area of the country. They have a
:26:42. > :26:46.high number of pensioners. The north-east gets the best benefits
:26:47. > :26:50.from pensions. Wales gets the best benefits from incapacity and
:26:51. > :26:53.disability benefit. London benefits the most from housing benefit. We
:26:54. > :26:58.pull resources from across the whole of the United Kingdom and it
:26:59. > :27:01.benefits everyone because needs better met irrespective of
:27:02. > :27:06.nationality. No country in the world has managed to do what we have done.
:27:07. > :27:10.I think people in England, Wales and Northern Ireland recognise we have
:27:11. > :27:16.something very precious that it would be a shame, in a world that is
:27:17. > :27:19.becoming more integrated, more connected, more interdependent, to
:27:20. > :27:24.throw away this form of cooperation that make such a difference. You are
:27:25. > :27:28.putting forward a vision of the future of the United Kingdom. The
:27:29. > :27:33.reality is that on Thursday the people in Scotland will vote on
:27:34. > :27:39.whether to stay in the UK or not. In effect, what you are doing, as many
:27:40. > :27:45.commentators have said, is rewriting the whole constitution of the United
:27:46. > :27:51.Kingdom, in order to keep Scotland in it. You are saying, everything
:27:52. > :27:56.have to change. I am saying we need a debate on the constitution of the
:27:57. > :28:05.United Kingdom. If they vote yes, you have already started. The truth
:28:06. > :28:09.of the matter is the debate is ongoing about the Constitution of
:28:10. > :28:14.the United Kingdom. Many people are contributing. Wales once more
:28:15. > :28:19.powers, London is talking about more powers. In the regions you will see
:28:20. > :28:23.a demand for more powers. I am saying this is the right way ahead
:28:24. > :28:28.for Scotland. It makes sense for the rest of the United Kingdom. It is
:28:29. > :28:33.not at the expense of the regions and nations. It is a demand that has
:28:34. > :28:37.come from Scotland for change and it should be meant. More powers for
:28:38. > :28:43.Parliament, fairness as a principle of allocation in the United
:28:44. > :28:47.Kingdom. We need to raise revenues ourselves on the National Health
:28:48. > :28:53.Service we can fund it properly, irrespective of what happens. This
:28:54. > :28:58.is, is it not, the last round. Looking at the United Kingdom, a
:28:59. > :29:04.historian will say, it was a gradual step. We did this, we did theirs.
:29:05. > :29:09.Even if they know any win this referendum, in the end, Scotland
:29:10. > :29:15.will become an independent country. I do not think so. Tides of opinion
:29:16. > :29:19.rise and fall. We have had to modernise the United Kingdom and, in
:29:20. > :29:24.particular, the role of Scotland in it for the 21st century. We had to
:29:25. > :29:30.make big changes in the 20th century with the creation of the welfare
:29:31. > :29:36.state. In the 19th century, there were institutions for the industrial
:29:37. > :29:40.revolution. The United Kingdom has evolved through that. Once the
:29:41. > :29:45.Westminster sovereignty, unity state, is at an end, people will
:29:46. > :29:48.recognise the diversity, power-sharing, everyone feeling part
:29:49. > :29:54.of the United Kingdom. A patriotically for Scotland on
:29:55. > :29:58.Thursday ensures we have more powers for Parliament but, equally, we have
:29:59. > :30:06.Scotland as part of the United Kingdom. Thank you very much.
:30:07. > :30:14.I am joined now by Alex Salmond. I wonder whether I shouldn't be
:30:15. > :30:19.congratulated because you seem to have got the best of both worlds.
:30:20. > :30:23.You have the option of independents and now Gordon Brown is saying you
:30:24. > :30:29.have been offered home rule for Scotland. It is too early for
:30:30. > :30:34.congratulations of any kind. This campaign has 2 days to go. We are
:30:35. > :30:39.working flat out. We are still the underdogs because Westminster has a
:30:40. > :30:43.huge amount of ability to throwing kitchen sinks, half the living room
:30:44. > :30:50.and probably some of the bedroom at us. My feeling is that people are
:30:51. > :30:58.determined to vote yes on Thursday but we will be working flat out till
:30:59. > :31:06.the polls close at 10 PM. Hasn't the no side said, what most people want
:31:07. > :31:14.is home rule. That is what the Prime Minister said. This is not Devereux
:31:15. > :31:20.Max. That is economic control. -- devo max. This is a rehash of what
:31:21. > :31:24.was offered in the spring. When it was offered in the spring, when
:31:25. > :31:29.people took a look at it, people in Scotland said, it is nothing like
:31:30. > :31:37.enough for study does not give as economic control. -- like enough. It
:31:38. > :31:42.does not give us. It is last-minute, desperate stuff. There is no content
:31:43. > :31:50.in it. It is very little in terms of economic powers and next to nothing
:31:51. > :32:45.in terms of other powers. For people who are nerve, cautious, may it not
:32:46. > :32:56.They are not Labour voters. These people are Scots who normally vote
:32:57. > :32:59.Labour. We are seeing lots of people who would normally vote Labour have
:33:00. > :33:03.been hugely attractive to the optimistic message of the yes
:33:04. > :33:09.campaign that we can create a stronger economy but also a more
:33:10. > :33:12.just society. The key figures on legendary. That is why there has
:33:13. > :33:14.been such a movement among Scots who want to see a more prosperous but
:33:15. > :33:52.also more just society. The wonderful proposal where they
:33:53. > :33:58.had a right to increased tax but not reduce it. I think that is a pretty
:33:59. > :34:03.strange thing, nothing like home rule, nothing like devo max. It is
:34:04. > :34:07.an insult to the intelligence of the people of Scotland to rehash these
:34:08. > :34:12.proposals last-gasp in the campaign and hope beyond hope that people
:34:13. > :34:18.think it is anything substantial. It is not. White Rabbit gives Scotland
:34:19. > :34:20.votes no on Thursday, do you think it will be implemented? -- if
:34:21. > :34:35.Scotland votes no. the last time he signed something
:34:36. > :34:41.was on tuition fees, which they then promptly broke. David Cameron has
:34:42. > :34:46.already faced a bloodbath to use the words of Tories, in terms of John
:34:47. > :34:49.Redwood and others, saying that this can't be countenanced, so he's
:34:50. > :34:54.already facing a resoleT and we're not past the referendum. As for the
:34:55. > :34:58.Labour Party, they're actually, in their proposals on the strength, had
:34:59. > :35:01.the weakest of all, even weaker than those of the Conservative Party,
:35:02. > :35:06.which tells you absolutely this is not home rule. It is a
:35:07. > :35:10.next-to-nothing offer at the last minute because of the substantial
:35:11. > :35:14.movement to yes. The fact that it's caused such a fuss in Westminster,
:35:15. > :35:17.if it has, suggests that at least the Conservative Party in
:35:18. > :35:19.Westminster thinks there's something substantial in it, otherwise they
:35:20. > :35:25.wouldn't be campaigning? That's true. The people are Scotland are
:35:26. > :35:27.less easily fooled than the backbenches of the Conservative
:35:28. > :35:31.Party in Westminster. We'll talk about the people of Scotland. We'll
:35:32. > :35:38.talk about the United Kingdom. How do you feel when you see nearly 80%
:35:39. > :35:44.of the rest of the United Kingdom wants Scotland to remain in the
:35:45. > :35:48.union? I think that's an interesting statistic. I think when people
:35:49. > :35:52.elsewhere in the United Kingdom understand and realise that we are
:35:53. > :35:56.not going anywhere, we are not drifting off to the north poll, but
:35:57. > :36:01.-- North Pole, but we'll be best friends and neighbours and we'll run
:36:02. > :36:05.our own finances and reap our own harvest and check our own tills in
:36:06. > :36:10.Scotland, but we'll still be part of an island where we'll have a share
:36:11. > :36:14.of a common border and we'll not have customs posts or any 19th
:36:15. > :36:21.century nonsense. We'll be part of the island and great friends, best
:36:22. > :36:25.pals and good neighbours. That may all be true, but nevertheless, the
:36:26. > :36:29.rest of the United Kingdom, the alarm seems to be on two fronts,
:36:30. > :36:32.one, the damage and we'll talk about money in one moment and the economy
:36:33. > :36:37.and that possible damage, and the other is, the damage to the
:36:38. > :36:41.international standing of the United Kingdom, that it won't have the same
:36:42. > :36:46.clout in the world as it does have with Scotland. I think that's an
:36:47. > :36:50.argument about what makes a country great. Some people in Westminster
:36:51. > :36:53.think greatness is about having nuclear weapons and being on the
:36:54. > :36:58.Security Council of the UN and participating in the illegal
:36:59. > :37:02.invasion of Iraq. Some 11 years, that is. I think greatness comes
:37:03. > :37:05.from the strength and vitality of culture, the hinterland and the
:37:06. > :37:10.compassion of the society and the approach you make to others. I think
:37:11. > :37:15.England's a great country. Not because the UK possesses nuclear
:37:16. > :37:18.weapons. I think England's a great country because it has enormous
:37:19. > :37:22.unparalleled hinterland and offered a great deal to the world. That's
:37:23. > :37:25.what I think makes a country great. Scotland can be a great country,
:37:26. > :37:31.because we have a heritage of what we should be proud of and we have a
:37:32. > :37:35.modernity and future of which we can contribute greatly, but you should
:37:36. > :37:39.speak to the rest of the international country, not by saying
:37:40. > :37:43.how great you are, but how useless you are and contribute and offer. On
:37:44. > :37:48.that basis I think the true greatness of a country depends.
:37:49. > :37:53.Nevertheless, you, for over 300 years -- Not me personally. No. It
:37:54. > :37:57.may feel like that in this stage of the campaign. For 300 years Scotland
:37:58. > :38:02.has been part of the United Kingdom and wielded with the rest of the
:38:03. > :38:07.United Kingdom huge international influence and power. You can cite
:38:08. > :38:10.examples with the Iraq war, where you disagree, but you are turning
:38:11. > :38:16.your back on Scotland ever again playing that kind of role in the
:38:17. > :38:20.world. It's more than a disagreement about the invasion of Iraq. For
:38:21. > :38:25.many, it was a turning point and tipping point in terms of their
:38:26. > :38:31.attitude to this question. When the UK did something I was starringered
:38:32. > :38:34.by in terms -- staggered by in terms of flouting the international law
:38:35. > :38:38.and participating in an illegal invasion and causing the death
:38:39. > :38:43.therefore of hundreds of thousands of people and the tragic things we
:38:44. > :38:47.see across the world now, giving an open door almost to extremism by not
:38:48. > :38:51.even planning for the aftermath of that conflict, that was a major
:38:52. > :38:56.issue and that was something which is not just, oh well, that was
:38:57. > :39:00.unfortunate, it was a dramatic illustration of why a country should
:39:01. > :39:05.not look to achieve greatness in wanting to participate in an
:39:06. > :39:09.adventure like that. Is that enough of a reason for leaving the world
:39:10. > :39:12.stage effectively? Well, with great respect, I don't think Scotland is
:39:13. > :39:17.going to leave the world stage. On the contrary, we are a nation of 5.
:39:18. > :39:20.25 million people. We don't want to dominate the world. We don't want to
:39:21. > :39:25.be a world power in that sense, but we are not without influence,
:39:26. > :39:28.because our people in Scotland, we have 100 million people who
:39:29. > :39:32.associate with Scotland worldwide and many of these people hold huge
:39:33. > :39:36.and influential positions in government and business and
:39:37. > :39:41.elsewhere and so our influence is based on the concept and idea of
:39:42. > :39:48.Scotland and it's a very attractive idea. There was a book talking about
:39:49. > :39:51.Scots inventing the modern world. That's not something we can say
:39:52. > :39:55.directly, although we quote it occasionally. That sort of influence
:39:56. > :40:01.is the influence that Scots will be able to bring. I think we can make a
:40:02. > :40:06.substantial, not dominating, but a substantial contribution to the
:40:07. > :40:10.world affairs. Is the option of independence a risk-free option? No,
:40:11. > :40:18.every country has problems and issues and every country will make
:40:19. > :40:25.his takes. I think -- missteaks. -- mistakes. We'll have challenges. We
:40:26. > :40:34.won't wake up in the spring of 2016, after the negotiation and find on
:40:35. > :40:39.Independence Day Scotland has no challenges. But what I think we'll
:40:40. > :40:44.have is better means and mechanisms of overcoming the challenges. That's
:40:45. > :40:50.one of the attractions. What are the risks that voters run by voting
:40:51. > :40:53."yes"? I think the risk is in terms of not doing something about the
:40:54. > :40:57.circumstances. I think the biggest challenge facing Scotland and indeed
:40:58. > :41:01.most of western Europe is a demographic challenge. Most of
:41:02. > :41:05.western Europe has a challenge looking forward of a shrinking and
:41:06. > :41:09.working-age population and growing older population. To tackle that we
:41:10. > :41:16.have got specific ideas and specific measures but they depend on having
:41:17. > :41:20.the powers of independence. We lose 30,000 people under 35 ever year,
:41:21. > :41:24.despite the relative success now of the Scottish economy. If you want to
:41:25. > :41:28.travel the world that's great and the wonder of the 21st century, but
:41:29. > :41:32.people shouldn't have to leave Scotland to find economic
:41:33. > :41:37.opportunities. You can't force them to stay? No, I don't think anybody
:41:38. > :41:39.should be forced to say. It's wonderful if people want to seek
:41:40. > :41:42.opportunities elsewhere, but you shouldn't have to leave because you
:41:43. > :41:47.can't find opportunities. You shouldn't be forced to leave by
:41:48. > :41:51.economic considerations. Then there's the people who want to stay
:41:52. > :41:57.and work and contribute to our economy. The people who we educate
:41:58. > :42:00.and raise as human capital. The present government kicks them out of
:42:01. > :42:06.the country and won't let them work and as a result of that policy we
:42:07. > :42:10.have seen a halving of the number of Indian students in the last few
:42:11. > :42:14.years. I say let's create opportunity for Scottish youngsters
:42:15. > :42:18.so they don't have to leave the country and if people like Scotland
:42:19. > :42:24.so much that they want to use their skills, many of them which we have
:42:25. > :42:27.contributed to for our educational system, then let the people work in
:42:28. > :42:33.our country and make the country more prosperous. You have said that
:42:34. > :42:39.people who say they're going to vote "no" are actually deferred "yes"
:42:40. > :42:42.voters, in other words, everyone really believes in your view. We'll
:42:43. > :42:48.come back to the issue of risk and fear. What is it do you think that
:42:49. > :42:51.is holding people back then from supporting the case for
:42:52. > :42:58.independence? What is it, because you hear people always and they've
:42:59. > :43:01.had many warnings from banks and businesses and people about the
:43:02. > :43:06.value of property and the cost of mortgages, a load of things thrown
:43:07. > :43:11.at them about the downside of voting "yes"? And they are fearful, aren't
:43:12. > :43:17.they? Certainly for some business, yes, but not from banks. For
:43:18. > :43:22.example, RBS, the Chief Executive, was very quick last week after the
:43:23. > :43:26.Treasury was misbriefing and releasing information that it had to
:43:27. > :43:32.right to release and very quick, the next morning, to write to every
:43:33. > :43:40.single employee and say -- Standard Life? It would not affect jobs,
:43:41. > :43:44.investment or transactions carried out in Scotland. We'll absolve the
:43:45. > :43:49.banks. What about all the businesses that have been lining up, either
:43:50. > :43:54.leaving or prices going up? I know you picked them off one by one and
:43:55. > :44:01.can say they were influenced by Number Ten. Is everybody lying about
:44:02. > :44:05.the downside? I never used the world about lying about the businesses,
:44:06. > :44:11.but it's not a question of picked off. Or being insurance fluenced by
:44:12. > :44:17.Number Ten. We know for a fact that David Cameron invited the big
:44:18. > :44:21.supermarkets a week past and asked them desperately, because he can't
:44:22. > :44:23.win the campaign politically if they would say something hostile about
:44:24. > :44:27.Scottish independence. Some unfortunately did. ASDA for example,
:44:28. > :44:31.but many others like Tesco and Aldi said no, this is not their
:44:32. > :44:37.businesses. They don't want to play politics. They want to be businesses
:44:38. > :44:40.and well done for them for resisting that crude pressure from Downing
:44:41. > :44:44.Street. The Prime Minister's fingerprints were all over it. It's
:44:45. > :44:51.demeaning for the Prime Minister to be reduced to scare tactics
:44:52. > :44:57.desperately in a campaign to try to use pressure to be agents of the
:44:58. > :45:06.project fear, which is disastrous. Do you think you would cut more - I
:45:07. > :45:11.don't know what the word is, have more effect, let's put it like that
:45:12. > :45:15.in this debate that's been going on for the last two years, if you were
:45:16. > :45:19.willing to admit on your side that there were risks, if you were
:45:20. > :45:24.willing to take on board people's fears about what might happen? Not
:45:25. > :45:31.in terms of challenges. Every country has challenges, but is there
:45:32. > :45:36.a downside risk? The reason I chose the demographic issue... It's not a
:45:37. > :45:42.risk. It was presented as a risk. The image is that we won't be able
:45:43. > :45:48.to afford pensions because the working-age population will be
:45:49. > :45:51.shrinking. I think the one which is probably the most effective of the
:45:52. > :45:54.older people in Scotland is exactly that. What I'm pointing out is
:45:55. > :46:01.that's a challenge for all societies. We currently have a low
:46:02. > :46:05.dependency ratio than the UK as a whole, but if you project forward we
:46:06. > :46:07.have a challenge, but we can overcome that, by encouraging young
:46:08. > :46:12.people to seek a future in their country and helping and assisting
:46:13. > :46:18.people who want to be part of this wonderful society we have in
:46:19. > :46:21.Scotland. Now, once an elderly person is satisfied as we have
:46:22. > :46:25.satisfied people in this campaign, that pensions are secure and a
:46:26. > :46:28.minister from Scotland will be paid from Scotland, then the debate
:46:29. > :46:31.becomes different and it's about the future. That's why I think it's so
:46:32. > :46:34.important for us to say, yes, that is a challenge for Scotland. This is
:46:35. > :46:38.how we are going to overcome it and this is how we can build a better
:46:39. > :46:42.future for our country and on that basis I see a significant movement
:46:43. > :46:48.of older Scots to the "yes" campaign. Can we talk about the
:46:49. > :46:55.future? We'll go as far as Friday afternoon, say. And there is a "yes"
:46:56. > :47:00.vote. And as many are predicting there's a run on the pound, there's
:47:01. > :47:06.chaos in the stock markets, what would your responsibility be then as
:47:07. > :47:14.the First Minister of Scotland to help stabilise that?
:47:15. > :47:25.This is why we have the Edinburgh Agreement. David Cameron said we
:47:26. > :47:32.would not have Devo Max. It would not even appear on the ballot paper.
:47:33. > :47:40.We wanted a clause that said after the result, both governments accept
:47:41. > :47:49.the democratic wishes of the people of Scotland. Before we get to these
:47:50. > :47:54.circumstances, a reiteration of that agreement and its importance will be
:47:55. > :48:00.a fundamental priority for both the Scottish and the London government.
:48:01. > :48:06.There is a slight problem. There is no advantage in scaring people any
:48:07. > :48:09.more. There is a slight problem. Whatever is in the best interests of
:48:10. > :48:14.the people of Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom, the people of
:48:15. > :48:18.Scotland have said they will become a foreign country. Let me just
:48:19. > :48:22.finished. The Prime Minister and the Westminster politicians, the
:48:23. > :48:31.Government there, will be looking after the interests, not of the
:48:32. > :48:38.United Kingdom. Can I just take you up on this foreign country
:48:39. > :48:45.nonsense? In 1940, I think it was, Ireland became a republic. It was in
:48:46. > :48:47.much more difficult circumstances than this democratic, peaceful
:48:48. > :48:53.process in which we are engaged. In that act, there was a phrase,
:48:54. > :48:59.Ireland will not be regarded as a foreign country. England will not be
:49:00. > :49:08.regarded as a foreign country. It is our neighbour and partner. The no
:49:09. > :49:14.campaign has been served so ill over the last few months because people
:49:15. > :49:22.have examined that sort of bogeyman tactic which has been dragged into
:49:23. > :49:30.the sunlight like Dracula. What will you say about the money in Scotland,
:49:31. > :49:34.about sterling? The Treasury says, you cannot have 1 currency was
:49:35. > :49:41.Scotland. You are out on your own. What will you say on that Friday
:49:42. > :49:46.when the markets are turbulent? The Bank of England has not said that.
:49:47. > :49:57.The Treasury has but the Bank of England has not. Governments will
:49:58. > :50:00.work together. After 10 PM on Thursday, there is no point in
:50:01. > :50:04.running a negative campaign any more. People get down and discuss
:50:05. > :50:08.the future and act in the best interests of the people of Scotland
:50:09. > :50:13.and the rest of the United Kingdom. Also to make it clear that the
:50:14. > :50:17.Governor of the Bank of England is responsible for financial stability
:50:18. > :50:21.over the next 18 months. That is a fact. It is an 18 month period of
:50:22. > :50:29.figures she Asian. Over that time, the Bank of England is in charge of
:50:30. > :50:33.financial stability. We want to take out the two nomination or risk that
:50:34. > :50:42.we intend to have sterling as our currency. -- the denomination risk.
:50:43. > :50:47.That may not be on Friday but over the next week or two, you will find
:50:48. > :50:52.unnamed Cabinet ministers who will say, of course there would be a
:50:53. > :50:58.currency union which will come out of the columns of the Guardian and
:50:59. > :51:02.into the sunlight to explain why. The anonymous minister, who was
:51:03. > :51:07.quoted as saying that, said Scotland wants a currency union and we want
:51:08. > :51:16.to keep Trident at fast lane. There is room for a deal. He said he would
:51:17. > :51:23.have to give something big in return. He said, of course there
:51:24. > :51:29.will be a currency union. He talks about trade-offs. I have said
:51:30. > :51:33.Trident is not a negotiating point. We put forward a timescale for the
:51:34. > :51:37.removal of nuclear weapons from Scotland which is not unreasonable.
:51:38. > :51:41.It is a 5 one half year timescale in the White Paper which I think is a
:51:42. > :51:48.pretty reasonable thing to put forward. In that report, people tell
:51:49. > :51:51.me it is an Anonymous Minister but I think sometimes anonymous quotes
:51:52. > :52:02.have more of the truth than ones which are made in person. Do you
:52:03. > :52:05.think you know who it is? I do. I am not the journalist concerned so I
:52:06. > :52:13.cannot say. Another interesting thing in that report was to explain
:52:14. > :52:17.why they were adopting an aggressive stance against currency union. It is
:52:18. > :52:23.about Alastair asking us to do it for the campaign. All of that get
:52:24. > :52:28.swept away once the results are in at 10pm. That is when people sit
:52:29. > :52:33.down and act in the best interests of the people of Scotland and the
:52:34. > :52:38.United Kingdom. Making it clear that the Governor of the Bank of England
:52:39. > :52:46.horror as he has made it clear, three weeks ago, he has said he is
:52:47. > :52:49.in charge of financial stability. We will see that the campaign is over
:52:50. > :52:55.and people start to talk sensibly with statements like, of course,
:52:56. > :53:02.there will be a monetary union. That will prevail. If you are wrong in
:53:03. > :53:07.that, what will you do? I cannot be wrong in the first two. I talk you
:53:08. > :53:14.can be wrong with the currency union. You were asking about
:53:15. > :53:17.Friday. I believe there will be a currency union. The verdict of the
:53:18. > :53:24.Scottish people will be very important. The Edinburgh Agreement
:53:25. > :53:31.says we will acknowledge this process and accept it. You have been
:53:32. > :53:35.extremely rude about Westminster politicians. Your website calls
:53:36. > :53:44.them, the most distrusted politicians ever. The most
:53:45. > :53:47.distrusted, you said. People in the papers today are so distrusted. They
:53:48. > :53:51.are rude about each other but they are standing shoulder to shoulder.
:53:52. > :53:56.There is an element of scepticism among the public who say they are so
:53:57. > :53:59.opposed to each other but can link hands, joined arms, and march up to
:54:00. > :54:08.Scotland and tell us what we can and cannot do. -- join arms. Why to use
:54:09. > :54:13.say you distrust them. I must take you at your word. -- you say you
:54:14. > :54:19.distrust them. Everything you want in the negotiations will go your
:54:20. > :54:23.way. You do not like it being called a foreign country but an independent
:54:24. > :54:27.Scotland on the one side and the rest of the UK looking to its own
:54:28. > :54:35.interests on everything, oil spending, the breakup of resources,
:54:36. > :54:39.Trident, whatever it is. It will be hard, difficult, and not necessarily
:54:40. > :54:49.going away. I will tell you why the negotiations will be positive... Why
:54:50. > :54:54.they will be positive, is the old phrase of Adam Smith. We are in the
:54:55. > :55:00.land of Adam Smith. That is why we find it so demeaning to be told we
:55:01. > :55:04.cannot run this economy successfully. He developed the
:55:05. > :55:09.concept of enlightened self interest. People acted economically
:55:10. > :55:14.because of self interest, which could contribute to mutual self
:55:15. > :55:18.interest. The reason it is important is England is Scotland 's largest
:55:19. > :55:26.trading partner and Scotland is England 's largest trading partner.
:55:27. > :55:35.It is in the enlightened self interests to get on with each other.
:55:36. > :55:39.Not just for Scotland but it is joint interests. It does not mean
:55:40. > :55:47.the rest of the knee are ticking doom should agree with every point
:55:48. > :55:53.of the negotiations? -- the United Kingdom. Bill Aa reasonable
:55:54. > :56:00.settlement is at the heart of proposals. -- a reasonable
:56:01. > :56:08.settlement. We have said, you need to have a reasonable timetable. We
:56:09. > :56:16.have tried to adopt that approach so life is not made difficult for
:56:17. > :56:20.people. You take the whole travails of the Westminster system and the
:56:21. > :56:25.rest of the European Union at the present moment. That's just assume,
:56:26. > :56:29.as I hope, that the rest of the UK decides to stay in the European
:56:30. > :56:33.Union and does not get dragged out by the Tory and UKIP strange dance
:56:34. > :56:39.that is going on at the moment wouldn't it be great to have 2
:56:40. > :56:43.voices on a lot of officials, as opposed to being isolated totally?
:56:44. > :56:50.On many things, we are an independent Scotland and an
:56:51. > :57:00.independent rest the UK. The fisheries policy is one example. We
:57:01. > :57:04.talked about the reluctance of the rest of the United Kingdom to see
:57:05. > :57:09.Scotland become independent. Are you not worried there will be a backlash
:57:10. > :57:15.against all of this? A vast majority of voters do not want to to have a
:57:16. > :57:20.currency union. Would the politicians at Westminster
:57:21. > :57:25.inevitably respond to that? If there is a swell of opposition to
:57:26. > :57:33.Scotland, simply because they want to cut loose, they could say, cut
:57:34. > :57:37.loose. Nothing to do with us. Trade is very important. I would never
:57:38. > :57:41.demean the people are being them by saying they are represented in terms
:57:42. > :57:47.of attitude to Scotland or anything else. By Tory backbenchers at
:57:48. > :57:59.Westminster. Let me answer in this way. I have made many speeches in
:58:00. > :58:03.England over the last few years. My feeling is whatever peoples attitude
:58:04. > :58:15.in England towards the process of Scottish independence, and there is
:58:16. > :58:20.substantial support. My friend, the MP for Liverpool Walton, he thinks
:58:21. > :58:24.it will start a process. There are active supporters of Scottish
:58:25. > :58:28.independence. The overwhelming majority, the view of the plain
:58:29. > :58:32.people of England will be, the Scots have made their decision, whether we
:58:33. > :58:37.liked it or not, we wish them well, as we will wish England well. That
:58:38. > :58:42.would be the prevailing view of the people of England, who I have the
:58:43. > :58:45.most extraordinary admiration and confidence in. Thank you very much
:58:46. > :59:06.indeed. A great pleasure. or to stay part of
:59:07. > :59:12.the United Kingdom? The BBC's online coverage will keep
:59:13. > :59:17.you up to date with every development with live streaming
:59:18. > :59:21.of the key moments, expert opinions