Scottish Parliament Education Committee

:00:11. > :00:20.The meeting of the education and skills committee in 2017. Can I

:00:21. > :00:27.remind you to turn your mobile phones. Very keen the business of

:00:28. > :00:33.the meeting goes ahead as normal. I would like to add, this committee

:00:34. > :00:39.supports the statement made by the presiding Officer, First Minister

:00:40. > :00:43.and party leaders in relation to the terrorist act in Manchester. Given

:00:44. > :00:47.our role in the future of young people, it may be a member to have a

:00:48. > :00:49.reflection on those who were injured and lost their lives in that

:00:50. > :01:13.terrible event. We have received apologies from

:01:14. > :01:18.Travis Scott, MEP, on a Commonwealth Parliamentary Association visit. The

:01:19. > :01:24.committee has one piece of negative legislation to consider. These Serb

:01:25. > :01:29.legislation is on the academic awards and this commission 's

:01:30. > :01:36.universities Highlands and Islands score, 2017. Though the committee

:01:37. > :01:39.have any comments to make on this? I don't have any comments to make. I

:01:40. > :01:45.think it is a very welcome development. These and related

:01:46. > :01:48.issues have been before the committee many times. A very

:01:49. > :01:54.detailed process to get to this stage. Very good news. The second

:01:55. > :02:01.item, sorry anyone else have any comments? The second item of

:02:02. > :02:05.business, the committee's enquiry into teacher workforce planning for

:02:06. > :02:10.Scotland's schools? We will hear from a selection of individuals on

:02:11. > :02:15.the teacher advisory planning group. Can I work Alan Armstrong, strategic

:02:16. > :02:26.director, Education Scotland. Catherine Callan. The general

:02:27. > :02:33.secretary of the ADA chefs. Morag Redford, chair of the Scottish

:02:34. > :02:42.Council of deans of education. John Stoner, and the general secretary of

:02:43. > :02:46.the ADL S. I will kick us off with the first question. How can we link

:02:47. > :02:54.workforce planning at the local level with the national setting of

:02:55. > :02:59.ITE targets? Anyone like to begin? I will set the ball rolling. Last year

:03:00. > :03:03.for the first time more of the local information was used in a very

:03:04. > :03:09.productive way to try and inform the process. One of the issues is the

:03:10. > :03:14.vacancies count, for a number of years the vacancies count has been

:03:15. > :03:20.increasing. There was never a formal or robust way of actually putting a

:03:21. > :03:26.number on the vacancies. You have to interpret what vacancies, when is a

:03:27. > :03:33.vacancy a long-term vacancy? At what point of the year do you do this. A

:03:34. > :03:38.survey was done. One of the issues would be to make that more robust.

:03:39. > :03:42.Maybe even try to get into a state where you can put a number on it,

:03:43. > :03:46.adding that into the intake. Right now it is used as background

:03:47. > :03:51.intelligence, fundamental and central. There is also the issue of

:03:52. > :03:57.supply teachers. For a number of years, the idea of the group, that

:03:58. > :04:01.has been depleted. You have heard already the difficulties creates. In

:04:02. > :04:07.terms of time in the school, pressure on teachers and

:04:08. > :04:13.headteachers. Again, a more rigorous and careful look at the supply pool,

:04:14. > :04:15.who is in the supply pool. Different types of teachers with different

:04:16. > :04:22.attitudes, how much work they prepared to do. Some authorities

:04:23. > :04:26.have permanent supply pools. Every two years they may well be

:04:27. > :04:30.refreshed. Maybe going to full-time, permanent posts in school. They have

:04:31. > :04:37.obviously earned the right to do that. The pools would be

:04:38. > :04:40.supplemented again. All of that output into the category of the real

:04:41. > :04:44.formalisation of the local intelligence. Just informing the

:04:45. > :04:50.model, trying to put much more into the model by a more robust than

:04:51. > :04:56.rigorous look at the issues. Also a full account of new demands. There

:04:57. > :05:00.are continuing the new initiatives, extending modern language in the

:05:01. > :05:05.primary school. Funding attainment challenges. All these issues. Always

:05:06. > :05:13.curriculum changes. Curriculum developments. It is not always

:05:14. > :05:20.clear, even curricula Max Evans, it changes the pattern and the nature

:05:21. > :05:25.of the curriculum. A more detailed account of how these actually impact

:05:26. > :05:30.schools on the ground, impacting the timetable, the work for the

:05:31. > :05:39.teachers. I think these are some areas where we could make more

:05:40. > :05:45.robust and local intelligence in terms of the National planning

:05:46. > :05:53.model. The actual staffing is managed and delivered. Locally in

:05:54. > :05:57.each of the 32 authorities. The actually marry these two things

:05:58. > :06:04.together. I will come back to that later on. Asking one question, how

:06:05. > :06:10.to interpret a vacancy? Why is that typical? It is such a large system.

:06:11. > :06:14.Any day you ask an authority if they have vacancies, they will say yes.

:06:15. > :06:20.Some of them will be filled within a week. Some will be filled within a

:06:21. > :06:24.month. Some may be longer than that. Trying to define what is exactly a

:06:25. > :06:31.long-term vacancy. Those are the ones presumably you need new people

:06:32. > :06:37.to fill. It is they do with the churn. A big system, a lot of

:06:38. > :06:39.movement. On any one day the number of pupils and teachers will be

:06:40. > :06:47.different. The number of vacancies will change this is their any work

:06:48. > :06:52.being done to create a process, that would make it much more simple? It

:06:53. > :06:55.does seem very complicated, in the key method. I was not say it is

:06:56. > :07:15.murky, it is complex. Maybe COSLA, who have been working

:07:16. > :07:19.on that. When we agreed to work with the government, carry that out last

:07:20. > :07:23.year. We were coming up to the teacher sensors. When the

:07:24. > :07:29.information was gathered from councils, roughly towards the end of

:07:30. > :07:34.September. What it was decided, in order to try and not place to

:07:35. > :07:38.greater pressure on councils, to gather the information, we would

:07:39. > :07:44.carry out the exercise at roughly the same time. He did not require

:07:45. > :07:52.a complex process. It took some time a complex process. It took some time

:07:53. > :07:56.to gather the information. In retrospect, probably, and there were

:07:57. > :08:00.some questions that were not asked in quite the same way. As with

:08:01. > :08:06.refinement and reflection. If we are refinement and reflection. If we are

:08:07. > :08:09.going to carry out the exercise again, we will have to have

:08:10. > :08:16.conversations, to get the right questions asked. Very briefly, can I

:08:17. > :08:25.be quite clear about this. Is there a definition of vacancy rate that

:08:26. > :08:30.you accept as being adequate? I think that is one of the issues, how

:08:31. > :08:35.you interpret, if you are asked how many vacancies, how long you fathom.

:08:36. > :08:41.There are different interpretations, what is a journeyman vacancy. What

:08:42. > :08:46.is a post that is just about to be filled. There is still some work on

:08:47. > :08:52.getting a definition that you can ensure the data is absolutely robust

:08:53. > :08:56.and consistent. When there is a publication of vacancy rates across

:08:57. > :09:01.different authorities, are they using different definitions and

:09:02. > :09:05.measures? They have never been asked in specific hard detail, how many

:09:06. > :09:13.vacancies do you have at this point in time? In the way the people

:09:14. > :09:18.sensors is done. It took many years for that pupil census approach to be

:09:19. > :09:25.so robust, there is little possibility of misinterpretation.

:09:26. > :09:32.The same process would have two be done for the vacancies. -- pupil

:09:33. > :09:36.census. It was done to establish the vacancy rate, something that we have

:09:37. > :09:40.been pushing for, in terms of making sure we had that the right, before

:09:41. > :09:46.we embarked on trying to plan for the new teachers. When we are giving

:09:47. > :09:50.vacancy rate statistics, are you saying they are not accurate? I

:09:51. > :09:57.don't know whether accurate would be the answer. Depends on who filled in

:09:58. > :10:00.the form, how they interpreted the vacancy, and you have many different

:10:01. > :10:05.people putting in different data, the issue is how you make sure the

:10:06. > :10:12.answers they give are robust and reliable. The point at which they do

:10:13. > :10:16.them is also important. JoAnn Munster ask a question. Let's not

:10:17. > :10:21.get held up in this one issue. Clearly work that needs to be done.

:10:22. > :10:26.I'm wondering what work is done where a school, for example, may

:10:27. > :10:30.have had a computer science teacher, and there is a vacancy, but they

:10:31. > :10:34.decide we're not going to find somebody. There stops being a

:10:35. > :10:41.vacancy, they stopped providing those courses. To what extent do

:10:42. > :10:45.local authorities and schools managing the vacancies, by

:10:46. > :10:53.redesigning the staffing. That must have an impact on recruitment for

:10:54. > :10:59.teacher training. Anecdotally, my sense is that we leaves speciality

:11:00. > :11:05.teachers in primary and secondary schools. Is that captured? An issue

:11:06. > :11:10.that the group has been looking at? It is not captured anywhere. I'm

:11:11. > :11:15.sure there will be examples in secondary schools, maybe Jim with

:11:16. > :11:18.one to answer this, where a headteacher has two plant in the

:11:19. > :11:25.knowledge there are certain subjects they may not be able to get a

:11:26. > :11:29.teacher for. They teacher leaves, for example, there will be some

:11:30. > :11:38.examples of that. I do not think there is any data for it. Maybe I am

:11:39. > :11:45.imagining this. We know certain schools will not offer certain

:11:46. > :11:53.advanced Highers. Certain courses they have to offer. I wonder whether

:11:54. > :11:58.you have a role in ensuring the diversity of specialist teachers?

:11:59. > :12:04.Whether that is helped by the workforce planning? Otherwise it is

:12:05. > :12:07.feeding off itself. You cannot get somebody running the course, don't

:12:08. > :12:16.look for the teacher, we don't train teachers in that subject. There are

:12:17. > :12:22.two parts to the answer. The first thing comes down to Miss Smith's

:12:23. > :12:26.point. Whenever the survey is conducted, it will change from day

:12:27. > :12:31.today. The vacancy may be filled tomorrow, a further vacancy may

:12:32. > :12:36.arise to Murrow, with circumstances beyond our control. There is an

:12:37. > :12:40.issue, we have got useful information through the survey,

:12:41. > :12:45.conducted, and that survey is only as accurate as it can be on the date

:12:46. > :12:52.was conducted. That fits into that part of the discussion as well.

:12:53. > :12:56.Again, to answer the question, schools remove subject to the

:12:57. > :13:01.curriculum because there is not a teacher available. It is not

:13:02. > :13:09.entirely down to the whole notion of having a teacher available. There

:13:10. > :13:14.will be other factors. To answer your particular question, there may

:13:15. > :13:19.well have been, and is to say, there will be schools where the curriculum

:13:20. > :13:25.has been adjusted. They will come to the arrangement with the school down

:13:26. > :13:28.the road to share the teaching the subject, on account of not getting a

:13:29. > :13:35.teacher at that particular point in time where the curriculum needs to

:13:36. > :13:40.be delivered. It is particularly pertinent where a teacher moves out

:13:41. > :13:45.of the school for whatever reason, when you are partway to records.

:13:46. > :13:50.There are ways in which you have to start to engage with the school down

:13:51. > :14:00.the road to make sure that aspect for the course gets delivered. You

:14:01. > :14:07.have a question? Yes, not unrelated to this. Last week, when we heard

:14:08. > :14:12.from Lawrence Finley, from Moray Council. We had an interesting

:14:13. > :14:18.discussion about whether councils should be more active in looking for

:14:19. > :14:22.local people who might become teachers, rather than hoping people

:14:23. > :14:28.will like to become teachers through the usual process. I would be

:14:29. > :14:34.interested to hear your views on this. The related point in terms of

:14:35. > :14:39.the formula we are using to workforce plan, do you think it is

:14:40. > :14:49.the correct one? Do we have to make more adjustments? I think it does

:14:50. > :14:56.relate to the first question very much. The point that Mr Dornan made

:14:57. > :15:01.about local information. The point is that Lawrence made last week

:15:02. > :15:05.about making sure the trading places are where the gaps are is very

:15:06. > :15:11.important. I'm not sure that is something that has been totally

:15:12. > :15:16.cracked. As an advisory group, we have pushed for a reallocation of

:15:17. > :15:20.places, but that is not something that can be done in one fell swoop.

:15:21. > :15:24.Needs to be done gradually, for universities to respond. And have

:15:25. > :15:38.enough people to train the teachers. In terms of the current methodology,

:15:39. > :15:43.the model, I think it we look at the information that we have in terms of

:15:44. > :15:47.where it is working and where it is not working, two particular

:15:48. > :15:50.challenges are the rural aspect, outside of main urban centres, and

:15:51. > :15:54.secondly in relation to specific subject areas. I think some of the

:15:55. > :15:59.things we've been doing over the last couple of years where, for

:16:00. > :16:03.example, John was touching on that we engage more with local authority

:16:04. > :16:10.intelligence in relation to subject areas and rural pressures, is the

:16:11. > :16:16.way to go. But, I would caution here to say that the way you take it into

:16:17. > :16:19.account is through an arithmetic modelling procedure. A lot of this

:16:20. > :16:23.is down to specific circumstances and some of the initiatives we begin

:16:24. > :16:28.to undertake are addressing these things rather than coming up with a

:16:29. > :16:33.perfect model that will land you the right number of teachers in five

:16:34. > :16:37.years' time, say. An interesting point, are you suggesting that we

:16:38. > :16:44.are too tired to a rigorous model and that we should open it up a

:16:45. > :16:49.little more? The point is well made, and you've got to be careful, I

:16:50. > :16:53.think, to look at the journey that we have moved with the model. The

:16:54. > :17:00.model is much more sophisticated than it was. It is much more, to

:17:01. > :17:05.call it and arithmetic or model, it is, that is what models are but it

:17:06. > :17:10.is becoming more informed by research at a local level. There is

:17:11. > :17:14.still a bit of that journey to go in relation to better information on

:17:15. > :17:20.the back of more expansive research, and if we are going to look for

:17:21. > :17:24.examples as we did in the last age profile of teachers which was a

:17:25. > :17:28.fairly blunt way of looking at it, because the landscape changed.

:17:29. > :17:31.Pension arrangements change, for example. Then, you start to look at

:17:32. > :17:40.a different way of identifying where the gaps may rise and fall in five

:17:41. > :17:43.years' time, and the sophisticated model landscape could better

:17:44. > :17:50.informed that long-term view in the number of people we bring into the

:17:51. > :17:54.profession and perhaps start two inform us of when they could be a

:17:55. > :18:01.shortage later on. A long-term view of a sophisticated planning model,

:18:02. > :18:04.allowing us to get more detailed information, addressing local and

:18:05. > :18:08.geographical issues but there needs to be something underlying that as

:18:09. > :18:13.well, which will identify specific challenges which, for example, exist

:18:14. > :18:19.within Northeast rural Scotland in relation to teacher numbers, per se,

:18:20. > :18:29.and particular curricular areas in the demand model. Thank you. My line

:18:30. > :18:36.of questioning follows on from this. Fundamentally, this is a supply and

:18:37. > :18:39.demand issue that you are tackling. Your supply of teaching

:18:40. > :18:45.professionals compared to the need for them in schools. May I ask, are

:18:46. > :18:48.those two elements modelled separately, because I am slightly

:18:49. > :18:53.concerned that you are talking about vacancies? Vacancies is the delta

:18:54. > :18:58.between the two. What you have is a national planning model. So, it

:18:59. > :19:07.looks at the data at a national level, in terms of the number of

:19:08. > :19:13.teachers that we already have, the number of people qualified to become

:19:14. > :19:19.teachers, and the gap that would be projected to exist in any particular

:19:20. > :19:26.year. Add to that the refinements in terms of leave rates, returners, all

:19:27. > :19:32.of the issues that affect the population of either the students

:19:33. > :19:37.qualifying, or the teachers in the system in a particular year. Then

:19:38. > :19:41.there is the attempt to come up with a number that is either surplus or

:19:42. > :19:47.deficit, in recent years it has been a deficit and that number informs

:19:48. > :19:51.the intake for the universities. However, in terms of what is

:19:52. > :19:56.actually happening on the ground, it is local authorities that manage and

:19:57. > :20:04.determine the staffing levels in schools. They do it by different

:20:05. > :20:09.methods. So, Duke got different things in different authorities. It

:20:10. > :20:13.makes it complicated. You have a national approach, but you've got

:20:14. > :20:21.local staffing and different ways of staff in schools locally. So in your

:20:22. > :20:27.answer, you outlined the modelling of the supply of teachers? And that

:20:28. > :20:31.the demand is down to local authorities. What attempt is there,

:20:32. > :20:39.or what methodology do you have for modelling that demand? You look back

:20:40. > :20:47.on previous years, basically, and you are able to see what happens to

:20:48. > :20:54.the profession in terms of the stay on rate, or the retention rate,

:20:55. > :20:59.within authorities. Or, the lever rate, the return rate. You can look

:21:00. > :21:04.at the age profile. So you are modelling the future based on

:21:05. > :21:10.looking at a three or five-year rolling average the past. It is like

:21:11. > :21:17.stocks and shares. You are trying to predict the future based on the

:21:18. > :21:22.behaviour in the past. But no statistical model can account for

:21:23. > :21:26.the behaviour of individuals or employers. I totally understand. It

:21:27. > :21:30.is the individual point but what you can do is talk to local authorities

:21:31. > :21:36.and find out what they're forward plans are? To what extent do you get

:21:37. > :21:38.that information from local authorities, not only on what

:21:39. > :21:50.happened in the last three years but in the future three years? That is

:21:51. > :21:54.where partners provide = -- COSLA with more information and make it

:21:55. > :22:01.more bust. It would be difficult to predict in three years' time how

:22:02. > :22:05.many teachers they would require. That is the challenge you and the

:22:06. > :22:11.King at in supply and demand and pop-up -- 's looking at in a supply

:22:12. > :22:17.and demand and supply system. Teachers and education programmes

:22:18. > :22:23.would not normally plan on an annual basis, which is the way the

:22:24. > :22:28.committee response using the PGD qualification to raise and lower the

:22:29. > :22:31.number of teachers, to enter the workforce at the end of the year.

:22:32. > :22:37.The university planning cycle does not actually a line easily with the

:22:38. > :22:41.local authority planning cycles, which is one of the challenges of

:22:42. > :22:45.the new advisory working group and what they will need to tackle. That

:22:46. > :22:50.is you confusing supply with demand. I totally accept that modelling

:22:51. > :22:53.supply is difficult, it is about individual choice, you don't know

:22:54. > :22:58.whether people leave the profession or not, various things. I would have

:22:59. > :23:01.thought demand is based on two things. The number of children you

:23:02. > :23:07.want to teach and how you want to teach them. Like subjects and class

:23:08. > :23:11.sizes. It should be relatively predictable. We know how many

:23:12. > :23:18.children we want to teach in advance as there is a five year the time for

:23:19. > :23:23.them reaching primary school. Is that straightforward to model? UC

:23:24. > :23:28.variables... When a teacher wants to retire, for example, very often they

:23:29. > :23:34.do not tell the authority until two months before they retire. That is

:23:35. > :23:39.supply, but what about demand? It is a demand, if that teacher leaves,

:23:40. > :23:44.the authority has a demand for that teacher. It is difficult to monitor

:23:45. > :23:52.precisely. A couple of authorities have a threshold model of staffing.

:23:53. > :23:57.0- 15 would be so many teachers, 15-20 would be so many other

:23:58. > :24:05.teachers... One people either side of that threshold is another more

:24:06. > :24:09.less. You only need to get those teachers wrong by a couple and you

:24:10. > :24:12.have a difficulty. You could ask authorities to do that and they

:24:13. > :24:16.could do that. Whether it would be more accurate then doing it at a

:24:17. > :24:22.national level would be the question. It could be done. So,

:24:23. > :24:29.local authorities are not modelling their future demand like that, it is

:24:30. > :24:33.separate to supply? They are not asked to do it... Do you think that

:24:34. > :24:38.the issues. It is for the group to the issues. It is for the group to

:24:39. > :24:41.consider and could formalise local intelligence and bring it more into

:24:42. > :24:52.the mainstream of the model. Thank you. Before I move onto the next

:24:53. > :24:58.questions, myself and my colleague, Ruth Maguire, met with teachers last

:24:59. > :25:01.week. We agreed to ask the questions that they were asking us but what

:25:02. > :25:07.seems pertinent given this discussion here was that, asked by

:25:08. > :25:11.one of the teachers and supported by many others, why our schools still

:25:12. > :25:16.run by education authorities. Would anyone like to take that on? I don't

:25:17. > :25:21.want to be flippant but maybe that is a political question... You must

:25:22. > :25:26.have an opinion? On whether you think it is the best way to deal

:25:27. > :25:38.with it? From our point of view, we would not have an opinion on the

:25:39. > :25:42.politics of it. I am here to represent us, but we would want to

:25:43. > :25:51.ensure that all of the functions can be required at a appropriate level.

:25:52. > :25:55.In local government organisation that was the view that we took.

:25:56. > :25:59.Whatever the politics work the structures were. And all of the

:26:00. > :26:04.functions that protect children and ensure quality education, they are

:26:05. > :26:18.ticked in terms of functional analysis. Does it come as a surprise

:26:19. > :26:23.to you, that, for the simple reason, there are complex areas within

:26:24. > :26:26.schools and the pupils that they work with, that require other

:26:27. > :26:33.services to be part of that engagement? Social care, for

:26:34. > :26:40.example. Housing. Economic growth, I suppose, as well. It can govern how

:26:41. > :26:45.a community changes, and what educational services are required as

:26:46. > :26:46.perspective, I agree with John. It perspective, I agree with John. It

:26:47. > :26:57.is a political question. May I remind the panel and everyone

:26:58. > :27:04.else I am asking a question that I was asked to ask.

:27:05. > :27:08.Thank you. Just looking at the subject specific issues we have with

:27:09. > :27:11.recruitment, what are your thoughts on what efforts can be made in the

:27:12. > :27:15.professional sectors from which you can draw on people with those

:27:16. > :27:21.skills? Like Stem subjects that are discussed in this regard. In

:27:22. > :27:27.personal experience, the technology department at my school were staffed

:27:28. > :27:31.by engineers who took early retirement, is there more work that

:27:32. > :27:39.can be done on this targeted approach to recruitment in subjects

:27:40. > :27:45.that have acute shortages? It was referred to earlier, that kind of

:27:46. > :27:51.grown your own approach that started in Aberdeenshire. At Aberdeen

:27:52. > :27:55.University. And the University of Highlands and Islands, we are

:27:56. > :28:00.looking at that with a local approach. For those who work in

:28:01. > :28:06.local areas, can we reconvert them into teachers? That has been done

:28:07. > :28:14.recently with limited success in the oil industry for Aberdeen. So, I

:28:15. > :28:18.think a lot more needs to be done, and can be done, to look at the

:28:19. > :28:22.resources we already have and a temptation to look at the resources

:28:23. > :28:30.you don't have. In my experience. It is important to see if we can

:28:31. > :28:32.convert existing teachers or staff, employees, their run many employees

:28:33. > :28:39.and councils who work with children already. If they have a degree,

:28:40. > :28:44.could they convert into teaching? There is also the wider job about a

:28:45. > :28:49.recruitment programme. I know that the Scottish Government had already

:28:50. > :28:54.embarked on a recruitment programme for teachers. Somehow, I think the

:28:55. > :28:59.big issue is we need to make the job more attractive in every way for

:29:00. > :29:03.teachers, if we are really going to tackle these issues. The shortfalls

:29:04. > :29:13.are significant in areas like technology. Areas like home

:29:14. > :29:22.economics, computing, religious and moral education. He is struggling.

:29:23. > :29:25.-- PE is struggling. We need to focus on those areas. Trying to

:29:26. > :29:29.model how many teaches you need in those subjects for individual

:29:30. > :29:40.subject is, I would say, nearly impossible to do. The issue that

:29:41. > :29:51.John Lamont raised, some subject that less involved. We do need to

:29:52. > :29:55.continue to run them. And let me reinforce the point that Jim made, a

:29:56. > :30:00.number of schools are operating in authorities in consortium with each

:30:01. > :30:03.other. There will be secondary subjects and if there is every

:30:04. > :30:05.ordered Corti there will be efforts to try and fill the gap in whatever

:30:06. > :30:13.way possible. This is I would add to John's point,

:30:14. > :30:24.the whole term of long-term planning. The issue which is the

:30:25. > :30:27.Ishii on teacher supply. That supply has varied, and changed given the

:30:28. > :30:33.shift in the economy, for whatever reason. You click on an issue which

:30:34. > :30:40.is a real live issue for schools and the group. Two aspects on it, we may

:30:41. > :30:45.hear from the General teaching Council, on the specific targeted

:30:46. > :30:50.approaches taken to modulate the things you have identified. There is

:30:51. > :30:56.honestly and need in the long-term for the profession, within the

:30:57. > :31:00.profession, if we are going to influence people that teaching is a

:31:01. > :31:05.worthwhile profession to pursue. We are in the best position as teachers

:31:06. > :31:10.to do that. We are critically aware of the important task within

:31:11. > :31:15.developing the young workforce. For example, to say teaching is a

:31:16. > :31:20.realistic and worthwhile option to look at in relation to your future

:31:21. > :31:25.career. There is a long-term part of it, and a short-term part of it, to

:31:26. > :31:30.look at the specific things was with a view, within the model, which we

:31:31. > :31:35.are trying to promote and develop, to ensure that the supply part of

:31:36. > :31:45.this actually looks at the man part in a much more positive way. Also

:31:46. > :31:49.the pathway is very important for attracting people into the

:31:50. > :31:55.profession. And he easily pathway, so you can move from industry, a

:31:56. > :32:00.second career, to a third career in teaching, in different points in

:32:01. > :32:05.your career pathway. As an individual, in any age. Some of the

:32:06. > :32:10.creative work teaching Council has been looking at easing the

:32:11. > :32:15.arrangements of that. Also the ways that the universities have

:32:16. > :32:23.responded, with the new pathway groups into the profession, helping

:32:24. > :32:32.in the long-term. Universities have had success in recruiting. To these

:32:33. > :32:36.new programmes. Although the one in Aberdeen was not as successful as we

:32:37. > :32:42.first thought when it started. A lot of local work going on in my

:32:43. > :32:45.institution, the University of Highlands and Islands, we are

:32:46. > :32:50.working with local authorities to recruit locally. Our experience is

:32:51. > :32:56.that there is a need within the national system to look at the local

:32:57. > :33:05.information and local need. But for that to be recognised, in the way

:33:06. > :33:08.the national planning is done. A small point about creating

:33:09. > :33:12.incentives for people to come into teaching later on. I don't know

:33:13. > :33:18.whether there are figures for the models, back in the day, when you

:33:19. > :33:24.started teaching. 22, looking at early retirement at 55. In all

:33:25. > :33:28.working lives, people are doing different things. What are the

:33:29. > :33:33.incentives building into teaching, for people to take the risk, to come

:33:34. > :33:40.out of another job, going to teaching as a late stage? One

:33:41. > :33:47.suggestion is a paid incentive, for shortages. A paid incentive,

:33:48. > :33:51.differentiate by subject. Secondly, have you looked at the possibility,

:33:52. > :33:56.if somebody has a lot of experience in industry, don't come in at the

:33:57. > :34:00.same level as someone who has graduated from you can bring them in

:34:01. > :34:04.at a higher point in the pay scale? Something you are looking at,

:34:05. > :34:12.something that your sales would contemplate? I think those are

:34:13. > :34:18.decisions for local authorities themselves to make, in terms of

:34:19. > :34:24.incentives. There are some offering golden hello is, to some people.

:34:25. > :34:30.Effectively holding people to remain for a minimum number of years in the

:34:31. > :34:35.teaching profession. That hast to be looked at in the context of an

:34:36. > :34:39.agreed pay and conditions package for teachers. If there are

:34:40. > :34:43.incentives, they are offered as the local level, based on the ability of

:34:44. > :34:48.the councils to offer that. If there is a need, and the pressure on

:34:49. > :34:53.particular subjects, that will be a focus. There are some examples

:34:54. > :34:59.already in existence of the activity taking place. Not about to write a

:35:00. > :35:10.incentives, but support on something like housing. So they are not direct

:35:11. > :35:17.paid, but in kind, I suppose. It is not having specific conversations,

:35:18. > :35:22.saying we need a pay scale. Someone will give up a well paid job in

:35:23. > :35:29.industry to come teaching, and be not expected to be on a salary of

:35:30. > :35:33.someone coming at the University at 22. We're looking at that, drawing

:35:34. > :35:38.on experience, people on different stages of their career. Specifically

:35:39. > :35:43.realising, if we are not competing with each other, but competing with

:35:44. > :35:50.sectors which will pay relatively well. If it matters, are we willing

:35:51. > :35:57.to pay the extra money to get stem subject teachers into schools? There

:35:58. > :36:02.is already a hit in the terms and conditions that allow us teachers to

:36:03. > :36:08.be paid higher up the scale, based on previous experience. I don't know

:36:09. > :36:13.how much that is used. From some of the examples I have seen, the

:36:14. > :36:19.recommendation is about the quality of the learning, the CPD the

:36:20. > :36:27.individual is undertaking in order to demonstrate they are meeting the

:36:28. > :36:30.standard required. Councils individually or look at that, in the

:36:31. > :36:38.context of each person applying for a post. It is correct, there is

:36:39. > :36:41.provision within the scale. It does sometimes cause confusion about

:36:42. > :36:46.where people can start. And what they think they are entitled to.

:36:47. > :36:53.However, there are methods within the current system that cellular. It

:36:54. > :37:03.appears it is possible to do it. But does not get done. Is that a broad

:37:04. > :37:07.answer? I think we don't know to what extent it is used. That has

:37:08. > :37:14.come up on other issues. There is some discretion. There is an obvious

:37:15. > :37:21.answer to attract people from higher salaries into teaching. It is

:37:22. > :37:29.limited to what extent authorities can work within the scheme, to make

:37:30. > :37:37.it attractive to people coming from the tech in science industries.

:37:38. > :37:41.Authorities have tried generally to put incentives to get teachers in.

:37:42. > :37:46.The bottom line, they are finding there are not enough people applying

:37:47. > :37:52.for the jobs they have. That is the bottom line. I think we could

:37:53. > :37:57.maximise the discretion and power we have, and we would still have a

:37:58. > :38:03.shortfall. I am expecting that to get better over the next few years.

:38:04. > :38:08.Given the work that the teaching, workforce, planning advisory group

:38:09. > :38:13.is done. In most of the degrees, there is a four year lag between

:38:14. > :38:20.turning on the tap and the water coming out of the other end. You

:38:21. > :38:24.wanted to come in briefly? A small supplementary discussion, because

:38:25. > :38:29.remuneration is not the only incentive for people. There are more

:38:30. > :38:33.and more people wanting to work part-time, have flexibility around

:38:34. > :38:36.their working life. Don't want to apply for full-time posts.

:38:37. > :38:41.Traditionally, I get the impression that people he wanted that

:38:42. > :38:47.flexibility will used to go to supply, but they are not doing that.

:38:48. > :38:51.Is there anything that can be done, in terms of recruitment, you could

:38:52. > :38:57.have flexibility around your working, but stability around the

:38:58. > :39:04.contract? There are vast numbers of permanent teachers on John O'Shea

:39:05. > :39:10.contracts, or part week contracts. It is not uncommon, very, very

:39:11. > :39:13.common. One of the complexities for our planning, to get a handle on the

:39:14. > :39:19.impact of that. If you have planned on the basis that a set proportion

:39:20. > :39:24.of teachers will come out of the other end of the training, and they

:39:25. > :39:28.will fill full-time posts, but a number of them end up on job share,

:39:29. > :39:33.part-time posts, for whatever reason, personal reasons that

:39:34. > :39:37.dictates they want to do that. All of a sudden, the numbers can be

:39:38. > :39:41.quite a way out. Especially if there is a transition in behaviours. That

:39:42. > :39:47.is a really important point. A growing feature of the workforce. It

:39:48. > :39:52.adds that the complexities. Some people are quite worried about the

:39:53. > :39:57.numbers, significantly increasing them and the difficulties of that

:39:58. > :40:04.means, in the school, managing twice the number of personnel then they

:40:05. > :40:09.would previously have had to do. In the national figures, you can see it

:40:10. > :40:14.increasing, reports are that it is becoming difficult, the workforce is

:40:15. > :40:19.changing. The nature of mobility in the workforce is changing. There is

:40:20. > :40:26.less capacity for people to move these days. Much less willing to

:40:27. > :40:29.move. You heard that from the students themselves, in terms of

:40:30. > :40:35.where they expected the job is to be order placement. It is a changing

:40:36. > :40:38.demographic. May ask information about some of the graduates coming

:40:39. > :40:44.out, particularly the PGD programmes. A lot of the people

:40:45. > :40:50.coming to the programmes would be defined as career changes. The

:40:51. > :40:57.average age of entry to PGD programmes is 25. Most entrance into

:40:58. > :41:01.the one-year programmes have considerable work experience in a

:41:02. > :41:05.variety of areas. In relation to the discussion about a variety of

:41:06. > :41:11.conditions when going into work. The majority of PGD graduates would have

:41:12. > :41:21.other work experience, and would expecting be considered within any

:41:22. > :41:26.measures introduced. Layers, you have one? One clarification related

:41:27. > :41:32.to what Doctor Redford has just said. Do we have reliable statistics

:41:33. > :41:38.about the number of teachers coming in from different routes, including

:41:39. > :41:43.those who may come from industry, or with bursary support? Do we have

:41:44. > :41:49.reliable numbers about the Fresno that information, you would have to

:41:50. > :41:58.ask the universities. Universities collect that within the statistics.

:41:59. > :42:02.It is collected on annual basis. Claire you wanted to talk about

:42:03. > :42:07.flexibility. I do want to pick up the point Julian made about

:42:08. > :42:10.flexibility. You said earlier in the session, John Studdard, we need to

:42:11. > :42:25.make teaching more attractive. Ken said it is crucial to attracting

:42:26. > :42:30.people into teaching, although it runs counter to that. Talking about

:42:31. > :42:36.flexible contracts, job sharing, and so on. We have heard evidence about

:42:37. > :42:40.the lack of flexible working opportunities. A lack of job share

:42:41. > :42:45.opportunities. Comments that teaching is less flexible than other

:42:46. > :42:53.profession. I was keen to hear what the panel's comments were on those

:42:54. > :43:03.issues? As I said earlier, certainly from my membership, teachers and

:43:04. > :43:11.principals, there are vast numbers of judges, part-time contracts, in

:43:12. > :43:15.the teaching staff. Much less so for headteachers. I'm not sure whether

:43:16. > :43:20.that was the evidence you heard. Very few instances where there are

:43:21. > :43:31.headteachers job sharing. Is there a reason for that? Certainly I know a

:43:32. > :43:34.fair number of headteachers who have requested reduced hours or job

:43:35. > :43:40.sharing, and they have been turned down. I can only relate that to the

:43:41. > :43:43.fact that local authorities are struggling to recruit headteachers.

:43:44. > :43:49.They would be struggling to fill the other parts of the job. Anyone else

:43:50. > :43:54.have a comment on that particular point about headteachers? Again

:43:55. > :43:58.parade and I come from different sectors. We have a different

:43:59. > :44:06.perspective on life. On this occasion, very similar in relation

:44:07. > :44:13.to the way the Scottish workforce has developed and expanded in the

:44:14. > :44:18.past 15, 20 years. I cannot think of a secondary headteacher who is

:44:19. > :44:23.involved in the job share partnership. Below that level, just

:44:24. > :44:27.about every other level within secondary education there will be

:44:28. > :44:33.job shares, through the whole system. That does run counter to

:44:34. > :44:39.some of the information the committee has her. I am merely keen

:44:40. > :44:43.to observe the rationale, particularly the concern about the

:44:44. > :44:49.number of people applying for headteachers, saying if you are

:44:50. > :44:57.part-time and not interested in you. It is a big question. There is a lot

:44:58. > :45:02.in there. There is already an issue about the supply of headteachers.

:45:03. > :45:04.Headteachers are visible to the rest of the school community. They are

:45:05. > :45:11.the recruitment pool for the next the recruitment pool for the next

:45:12. > :45:15.headteachers. They are seen people working long hours, budgets reduced,

:45:16. > :45:21.staffing, in terms of management time and management posts being

:45:22. > :45:26.reduced. The job at the moment, probably becoming less appealing. It

:45:27. > :45:31.would be difficult for a local authority to say yes to a job share,

:45:32. > :45:33.because they will not be able to fill the gaps. I can see it from

:45:34. > :45:41.both sides. Can I just add, there's the report

:45:42. > :45:45.for government recruitment and selection of headteachers, you

:45:46. > :45:49.included the reference to that report in your papers. We

:45:50. > :45:52.interviewed a lot of deputies and headteachers. We did not come across

:45:53. > :45:56.any evidence that people were not applying because it was not

:45:57. > :46:01.flexible. It was more the kinds of reasons that Greg has talked about,

:46:02. > :46:05.demands of the job, accountabilities of the job to children, parents,

:46:06. > :46:11.authorities and government. Sometimes the stress of not having

:46:12. > :46:17.enough cover in management time to do the job. It is the stresses and

:46:18. > :46:22.a lack of support to actually carry a lack of support to actually carry

:46:23. > :46:29.out that job. They found it quite a lonely job in terms of support, in

:46:30. > :46:38.terms of both the mental ship in that kind of thing but also the

:46:39. > :46:42.budgets -- mentorship. And support staff around the school. They found

:46:43. > :46:49.it more demanding and some deputies found that there was not a huge

:46:50. > :46:55.incentive to become head teacher. When they saw the job. Personally,

:46:56. > :47:00.particularly in women's cases, you could look at it and think that is a

:47:01. > :47:05.step too far in terms of the demands and stresses, why would I put myself

:47:06. > :47:09.and my family up for that stress? I have to say I find it quite an

:47:10. > :47:16.extraordinary statement, to single out females? Looking at jobs in a

:47:17. > :47:20.particular way? What I meant to say was that sometimes men just see it

:47:21. > :47:27.as a competition, and they take it as a challenge. Sometimes women, in

:47:28. > :47:32.my experience is speaking to all of these people, took a more whole life

:47:33. > :47:39.approach to it. And thought, the additional stress and anxiety is not

:47:40. > :47:43.worth struggling sometimes. That's a personal view, sometimes men take

:47:44. > :47:46.those decisions without necessarily considering the implications... I

:47:47. > :47:54.think we will move on from that. Although I am keen to know why the

:47:55. > :47:59.door seems to be closed to part-time or job share, if local authorities

:48:00. > :48:03.do not advertise these posts as being flexible, then how do they

:48:04. > :48:11.know that there is no demand for deputy headteachers to apply for a

:48:12. > :48:15.part-time or a job share head post? There is demand, because people do

:48:16. > :48:19.ask for it. I know of many members that I have spoken to who have been

:48:20. > :48:25.asking their local authority for just that. They have not been unable

:48:26. > :48:29.to do that. So it is local authorities closing the door on that

:48:30. > :48:39.option? That is my understanding. Also, we hope the -- heard the

:48:40. > :48:42.evidence for Elizabeth Marshall, in your first evidence session. Her

:48:43. > :48:47.description of her reasons for deciding to leave the profession in

:48:48. > :48:53.the first quarter of this year, we had 70 members who stepped down from

:48:54. > :48:58.headship or left the profession altogether -- 17. It was in response

:48:59. > :49:04.to workload issues. Over the same period, the first quarter last year,

:49:05. > :49:08.we only had five members doing that. None of them were talking about

:49:09. > :49:13.workload as the key driver. There were other issues in those five

:49:14. > :49:15.cases. That is just from cases that have gone to area officers

:49:16. > :49:21.supporting people making that decision. Can I ask very briefly

:49:22. > :49:28.about the other end of the profession? We heard about the

:49:29. > :49:31.probation being inflexible. Do you have any thoughts on how it could be

:49:32. > :49:37.made more attractive as a part-time job share, especially for people who

:49:38. > :49:45.may be coming through with a PGD qualification? Well, there is an

:49:46. > :49:48.option just now where you would have two asked the General teaching

:49:49. > :49:51.Council. When students graduate and going to

:49:52. > :50:00.induction here, they can choose to do induction and take a one-year

:50:01. > :50:04.post with a local authority. Through that, they are supported or could

:50:05. > :50:08.choose to meet the standard for full registration through a flexible

:50:09. > :50:16.route which entails working a set number of days within schools. The

:50:17. > :50:19.support system with that, there isn't one because they are not

:50:20. > :50:24.connected to the structures that a local authority has two support

:50:25. > :50:34.teachers on an induction year programme. There is an option, at

:50:35. > :50:38.the moment, the universities do not really have any further information

:50:39. > :50:41.about that, students leave us and going to the induction year and we

:50:42. > :50:45.do joint work during the induction year with local authorities because

:50:46. > :50:49.that is part of the teaching qualification. It isn't just about

:50:50. > :50:54.what you do in the university setting but about the induction year

:50:55. > :51:00.in local authorities and completing the standard for full registration.

:51:01. > :51:08.I suppose it is an area nationally that we could explore in relation to

:51:09. > :51:12.offering other routes to completing the standard for full registration.

:51:13. > :51:19.You can ask the next Parliament that question. Thank you very much.

:51:20. > :51:28.Joanne Lamont? How difficult are we making it for teachers? There have

:51:29. > :51:34.been people with great experience, but they are not in a position to do

:51:35. > :51:39.placements, they may not even want to take the risk of losing a salary

:51:40. > :51:47.for a year in order to train. I want what you done in order to make sure

:51:48. > :51:51.that year teacher education is more flexible. It's like when I was a

:51:52. > :51:59.Jordan Hill. Generally, it feels that you have placements where you

:52:00. > :52:04.do stuff, but the pressure surrounding making the placement in

:52:05. > :52:05.a particular place, there is no flexibility or caring

:52:06. > :52:11.responsibilities. Or, what income you have. It seems that someone

:52:12. > :52:20.still presumes that someone is 22 years old, with family support which

:52:21. > :52:25.allows them to do placements. How do you factor in caring

:52:26. > :52:30.responsibilities into placements? How could you change the year's

:52:31. > :52:34.education and are there any means by which you could train as a teacher

:52:35. > :52:41.while keeping your job? Could you do it part-time flexibly? Yes, there

:52:42. > :52:48.are two routes currently where you can do that. University of Aberdeen

:52:49. > :52:52.has run what is called a Daylight Programme, with authorities in the

:52:53. > :52:58.north and east, particularly Aberdeenshire, Murray and Highland,

:52:59. > :53:01.where local authority employees are supported to career change and they

:53:02. > :53:08.complete the Aberdeen University programme over a period of 18

:53:09. > :53:12.months. That is a structured part-time taught programme.

:53:13. > :53:15.University of Dundee last year introduced a similar programme in

:53:16. > :53:20.response to local authority requests and is currently working with Perth,

:53:21. > :53:23.Kinross and Angus. Both of those universities will expand those

:53:24. > :53:28.programmes to offer them across the country. The University of the West

:53:29. > :53:34.of Scotland is running a programme with Dumfries and Galloway, I do not

:53:35. > :53:37.have the full information on that programme but I think it has

:53:38. > :53:48.involved staff being released for a year. My own university has worked

:53:49. > :53:52.very closely over the last year, where they have supported their own

:53:53. > :54:00.employees and other people living and committed to living on the

:54:01. > :54:04.islands to complete a one-year PGD programme. The authority chose to

:54:05. > :54:10.offer financial support, you heard from one of our students earlier.

:54:11. > :54:15.And that person, when they successfully complete that year,

:54:16. > :54:20.they have agreed to work with the authority in induction year. And for

:54:21. > :54:30.one year beyond, I think. There are a range of other programmes where we

:54:31. > :54:33.are looking at condensed, telescope programmes that will bring new

:54:34. > :54:43.teachers into the workforce on a faster route. And universities

:54:44. > :54:49.would, I think, be particularly keen for some of that range. There are 11

:54:50. > :54:51.different programmes, 13 including that new programme with the

:54:52. > :54:56.University of Edinburgh that you heard about, the oil based programme

:54:57. > :55:00.in Aberdeen. Universities would be keen that we evaluate these routes

:55:01. > :55:04.and the success of them. And, look to learn from that. Then, look at

:55:05. > :55:12.what you have referred to as a traditional model. The question of

:55:13. > :55:18.placement came up a lot in the evidence that we got from people

:55:19. > :55:26.where it becomes a burden and a block, not so much actually being in

:55:27. > :55:28.the school with staff, lowering the question of consistency of

:55:29. > :55:34.mentorship because of the pressure on staff but not being given much

:55:35. > :55:38.notice or not being suitable, not factoring in... You won't be able to

:55:39. > :55:45.drive, you have caring responsibilities. You have to look

:55:46. > :55:50.after children yourself. Do concerns get fed into the process of... It

:55:51. > :55:52.doesn't feel like a difficult job to me to have placements that meet the

:55:53. > :56:01.pressures that students are under, has that issue come up to you? I

:56:02. > :56:06.will take that one. We haven't, aside from last year, been

:56:07. > :56:10.particularly clever in engaging with students and the placement

:56:11. > :56:17.experience. We have moved very definitely towards a system now

:56:18. > :56:21.where schools cannot opt out of being a school in which there will

:56:22. > :56:26.be a placement it is assumed that schools will be opted in. It takes

:56:27. > :56:31.away the power of negotiation, checking within a university, that

:56:32. > :56:35.says that school does not accept people on placement. It is now

:56:36. > :56:43.accepted that schools take people on placement unless there are

:56:44. > :56:47.pre-identified circumstances. For example, the principal teacher of

:56:48. > :56:49.the biology department has been absent for a particular time. We

:56:50. > :56:55.wouldn't want to put a student into that. It should change the emphasis

:56:56. > :56:58.and perhaps introduce into the system the greater flexibility is

:56:59. > :57:03.that you are looking for in relation to being able to match a student who

:57:04. > :57:08.cannot drive to a school which is in their local area. As opposed to,

:57:09. > :57:11.let's pick it off the list because those are the only schools on the

:57:12. > :57:16.list. There are many more on the list now than there were before. You

:57:17. > :57:20.would also categorise by, if we actively try and encourage people

:57:21. > :57:24.with a working life and who have families to go into teaching because

:57:25. > :57:33.we recognise there is a shortage, why make it difficult? Offering

:57:34. > :57:38.places when they are older with family responsibilities? It factors

:57:39. > :57:42.in that particular part, the individual difficulties experienced

:57:43. > :57:46.by a student. Whether a 22-year-old or a 41-year-old. It enables the

:57:47. > :57:56.University to have a significantly greater degree of flexibility, and

:57:57. > :58:00.the ability to match, if not target, particular demands and requirements,

:58:01. > :58:06.circumstances, of a student. Into the schools that they have available

:58:07. > :58:16.to them. Universities and local authorities have been working

:58:17. > :58:21.closely with the GTCS who manage that for us, including that key one

:58:22. > :58:24.for us about most schools being available for automatic placement,

:58:25. > :58:30.when they have been made. It is actually quite rare for students to

:58:31. > :58:34.enter up being asked to travel a considerable distance. I think it is

:58:35. > :58:41.important that you know that the university 's work very closely with

:58:42. > :58:44.students and they listen to them. They respond to issues that are

:58:45. > :58:51.raised about placement, as we do with any other aspects of other

:58:52. > :58:55.programmes. I think it was significant, definitely a theme

:58:56. > :59:01.across the evidence that we have got, that it was felt it was not

:59:02. > :59:10.factored in. It created unnecessary stress at a stressful time anyway. I

:59:11. > :59:15.wonder, very briefly, if a school has top ten and has chosen not to,

:59:16. > :59:26.and we are now seeing... Cash has two opt in. You have two opt out?

:59:27. > :59:28.Why would people do that? There would be specific factors within

:59:29. > :59:33.that school, certainly within the second sector in individual

:59:34. > :59:43.departments within that school, but specific and identified. Thank you.

:59:44. > :59:46.Ross? Coming back to this issue of mobility, particularly in my region,

:59:47. > :59:52.I represent the north-east where there are chronic shortages of

:59:53. > :59:55.teachers. We heard from trainee teachers that there is a tendency to

:59:56. > :00:02.gravitate towards the central belt, taking positions elsewhere. We have

:00:03. > :00:06.heard about local incentives, we have had the golden hellos, helping

:00:07. > :00:13.with Brent and housing. But when I asked last week, Lawrence Finlay

:00:14. > :00:18.from Murray Council said that he would favour a national scheme with

:00:19. > :00:21.local flexibility, purely because of the risk of local authorities trying

:00:22. > :00:26.to outbid each other. I was wondering if you could talk to me

:00:27. > :00:28.about what you think the risk is surrounding competition with local

:00:29. > :00:34.authorities, and what sort of national scheme could be beneficial,

:00:35. > :00:39.what would that look like? My colleagues could jump in on the risk

:00:40. > :00:46.side of it. There's a real need to make sure that people are trained in

:00:47. > :00:50.the right places. There has been a structural unemployment problem

:00:51. > :00:54.within that workforce, that there are people in the central belt

:00:55. > :00:57.without jobs and they are not willing to travel. Meanwhile, there

:00:58. > :01:02.haven't been enough people in the north-east or the Highlands, or

:01:03. > :01:05.Dumfries and Galloway. The situation, I think, has worsened a

:01:06. > :01:07.little bit. There are issues about supply all over the country at the

:01:08. > :01:25.moment. The evidence you are given was very

:01:26. > :01:30.clear: students were not willing to travel. They wanted to go somewhere

:01:31. > :01:34.they were familiar with. The knowledge about the demand for

:01:35. > :01:43.teachers and a particular area should feed into have money trading

:01:44. > :01:49.places are in each university. What we will end up with, in terms of the

:01:50. > :01:52.teacher workforce planning and individual initiatives will be a

:01:53. > :02:00.national model, supplemented by local partnerships, like the

:02:01. > :02:03.Northeast Consortium. A group of authorities and the university

:02:04. > :02:08.trying to fill particular needs for a particular area. That is the way

:02:09. > :02:14.it will pan out. Great's point is worth reinforcing. The figures

:02:15. > :02:18.suggest that if you trained all the people in the places where there was

:02:19. > :02:22.a demand, and you are able to match that in terms of geographical

:02:23. > :02:28.structure, we would have much less of a difficulty. The other thing I

:02:29. > :02:32.would like to make the committee whereof, there are a lot of demands

:02:33. > :02:38.on schools, meetings the demands for these places. Schools in central

:02:39. > :02:45.Glasgow could get several requests from one university, that may cover

:02:46. > :02:49.the four year course. And from other universities, to be in the same

:02:50. > :02:53.time. It is actually quite difficult to meet the demand for places

:02:54. > :03:00.generally, to meet everybody's individual needs in terms of whether

:03:01. > :03:04.they want them, quite demanding challenge for universities and the

:03:05. > :03:09.schools themselves. Certainly when I worked in Aberdeen, I found the

:03:10. > :03:14.universities tended to gravitate toward the centre of the city as

:03:15. > :03:19.opposed to Aberdeenshire and Moret, because it was more convenient. And

:03:20. > :03:26.there were cost implications about sending students and tutors out of

:03:27. > :03:32.the far-flung places of Scotland. There are a number of factors about

:03:33. > :03:36.how we try to structure the system so we are training people in the

:03:37. > :03:41.places where they are likely to end up. That is what the research tends

:03:42. > :03:51.to show, most student teachers end up in the areas they are trained in.

:03:52. > :03:55.I think there is some evidence, in Scotland, in terms of financial

:03:56. > :04:01.incentives we have tried to use, it has got the effect of encouraging

:04:02. > :04:05.people not originally from a rural area into a rural areas. There is

:04:06. > :04:09.evidence from down south about this, it actually it is not affected.

:04:10. > :04:15.Although you may get people to move into an area initially, they will

:04:16. > :04:19.take the money for that period, but the retention if they are not from

:04:20. > :04:25.that area can be very poor. I think John is right, starting further back

:04:26. > :04:30.in the process, thinking about people in an area, encouraging them

:04:31. > :04:33.to think about a career in teaching would be the most sustainable

:04:34. > :04:38.approach to take. It is not just money, it is thinking in a more

:04:39. > :04:44.sophisticated way about tackling these issues. Thank you very much

:04:45. > :04:48.for that. I would like to pick up, Doctor Redford, in one of the

:04:49. > :04:52.answers you get earlier, you talked about the scheme in Aberdeen,

:04:53. > :04:57.getting people made redundant from gas into teaching. You said it had

:04:58. > :05:01.not been a success. The numbers have been really low, in terms of those

:05:02. > :05:06.going into the teaching profession in particular. Why do you think that

:05:07. > :05:15.is? What could've been done differently? I don't have detailed

:05:16. > :05:21.information about it. I understand it was perhaps the people he came

:05:22. > :05:25.into the scheme, some of them did not have a full understanding of

:05:26. > :05:34.what they were about to undertake, in schools, and the initial

:05:35. > :05:39.experience in schools was not the career they thought they were

:05:40. > :05:43.getting into. I think they are the main reasons why some people began

:05:44. > :05:52.the programme and dropped out. John may have more information. Sorry.

:05:53. > :05:57.Across the North of Scotland, we have seen the number of registered

:05:58. > :06:03.supply teachers fall. In Aberdeen city can has been a 30% drop in the

:06:04. > :06:07.number of supply teachers. Many older teachers making up the

:06:08. > :06:13.majority of supply teachers. What is putting them off? Do you think it is

:06:14. > :06:17.changes in the curriculum? The greater workload, which we spoke

:06:18. > :06:22.about already. In relation to headteachers. Why do think it is we

:06:23. > :06:25.have seen such a fall in supply teachers, particularly when many

:06:26. > :06:36.people in the classrooms, given the vacancies? A more general point, Mr

:06:37. > :06:40.Thompson, over the place, I would argue, the latest work we're in the

:06:41. > :06:46.advisory group, we're getting more accurate at the time in the national

:06:47. > :06:50.picture. In terms of the total requirement for teaching versus the

:06:51. > :06:57.total number of teachers available. Some of you may remember several

:06:58. > :07:00.years, is almost seven or eight years ago we have the opposite

:07:01. > :07:06.problem. We are very touched on that, arguably we had too many

:07:07. > :07:11.teachers. A huge concern about jobs. Rather perversely by getting more

:07:12. > :07:16.accurate, therefore around the edges, and supply teaching is around

:07:17. > :07:23.the edges, there will be naturally be less people available for that

:07:24. > :07:29.part of the market, if we can call it that. There are other aspects in

:07:30. > :07:33.relation to supply, which I'm not so well qualified to comment on. The

:07:34. > :07:36.more precise you get about predictions around about the edges

:07:37. > :07:43.it will become much tighter. Colleagues will come in. You need

:07:44. > :07:47.almost 10% more than you planned workforce, in order to have enough

:07:48. > :07:53.to cover the day in February when everybody gets flu. Of course a very

:07:54. > :07:57.tricky act to pull off. You will then have teachers on the supply

:07:58. > :08:04.list he would much rather be doing more work and more regular work, and

:08:05. > :08:08.more guaranteed work. Hence the number of authorities who have

:08:09. > :08:14.permanent supply pools they refresh every two years. The lack of supply

:08:15. > :08:22.is a symptom of the fact there are fewer people available for work as

:08:23. > :08:26.teachers. That's cool went down, in the same way the supply teachers

:08:27. > :08:35.went down. In many cases, when jobs to come up, they are also being in

:08:36. > :08:40.part filled, maybe not the group of staff you have talked about you have

:08:41. > :08:47.retired, and are happy to do a day or two week. There are never group

:08:48. > :08:50.looking for full-time employment. Traditionally 20 years ago that was

:08:51. > :08:54.the route in for many teachers into full-time employment. Many people

:08:55. > :08:58.started that way to get their foot in the door, getting experience and

:08:59. > :09:05.reputation. Then having a full-time job. You can see their is a lot of

:09:06. > :09:09.work to be done. If the government gets its slightly over, you will

:09:10. > :09:13.have lots of complaints, as you did eight, nine years ago, about

:09:14. > :09:18.teachers being unemployed, trained for unemployment. You can hear the

:09:19. > :09:22.headlines. I remember Michael Russell answering the question on a

:09:23. > :09:26.radio phone in programme. If you get it wrong the other way, and

:09:27. > :09:30.authorities cannot staff the schools, it makes it difficult for

:09:31. > :09:39.them to statutory obligations to provide education. A very fine

:09:40. > :09:47.balancing act. I find it amazing how close the government manages to get

:09:48. > :09:53.the figures. It is a tricky one. Two points. John has picked up on one of

:09:54. > :10:02.them. Related to the make-up of the supply pool was, ten, 15 years ago.

:10:03. > :10:06.John well described the nation of young people coming from teacher

:10:07. > :10:10.education, finding themselves about the job, finding themselves on the

:10:11. > :10:16.supply pool, fulfilling a function in the supply school chilly pool in

:10:17. > :10:24.schools. Gaining experience leading them into a job. Moving the system

:10:25. > :10:29.on a bit, to a point in time where there are going teacher shortages.

:10:30. > :10:34.These people gradually incorporated an assimilated into the system. The

:10:35. > :10:38.other part of the supply pool make up from a folk you have a further

:10:39. > :10:42.type he still felt they had something to offer to the

:10:43. > :10:45.profession. Over that period of time they get that through coming on to

:10:46. > :10:53.the supply pool from the supporting schools in that way. Again, running

:10:54. > :10:56.it forward, ten, 15 years ago. The tomography is such, these people no

:10:57. > :11:03.longer feel they are able to do that. In a period where there are

:11:04. > :11:08.teacher shortages, soaking into the system, it diminishes the supply

:11:09. > :11:11.pool, in terms of people coming in. People who perhaps return to

:11:12. > :11:17.teaching profession themselves the supply pool and suddenly

:11:18. > :11:21.incorporated into the system. At that point, the elder members of the

:11:22. > :11:29.supply pool have decided life holds other things, other than going into

:11:30. > :11:37.being at each of the other day. We are in a cyclical situation right

:11:38. > :11:43.now. We have already touched on GTS criteria, flexibility of that. Would

:11:44. > :11:47.you agree, it should be made more flexible to allow more highly

:11:48. > :11:51.skilled individuals, you have some experience of teaching, whether that

:11:52. > :11:59.is abroad, languages, youth work, coming into teaching. Do you believe

:12:00. > :12:08.a teach first style system would be one option in doing so? Universities

:12:09. > :12:18.do not believe the teach first structure offers the same depth of

:12:19. > :12:23.learning and establishing a professional identity. And

:12:24. > :12:29.development of skills. In the structure they have used in England

:12:30. > :12:33.and Wales, where teach first employees are based in schools, and

:12:34. > :12:39.in recent years, they have completed a postgraduate certificate on a

:12:40. > :12:49.part-time basis while teaching. The Council of deans feel strongly the

:12:50. > :12:59.model we have developed in Scotland, the one your PGD convocation, and

:13:00. > :13:04.timing University establishing the learning and reflective skills to be

:13:05. > :13:08.able to respond to different teaching situations, combined with

:13:09. > :13:13.half of the time in schools, working with experienced practitioners, it

:13:14. > :13:17.is a stronger way to develop the workforce. It is also a way to bring

:13:18. > :13:23.people into the workforce, retaining them in the teaching workforce. The

:13:24. > :13:34.statistics of people retained after completing Teach First programmes of

:13:35. > :13:42.work are much more low. The Teach First programme itself, the original

:13:43. > :13:47.development from Teach America and other programmes in other countries,

:13:48. > :13:52.it is about the development of management, and entrepreneurial

:13:53. > :13:55.skills. And the focus, and the programme established in England,

:13:56. > :14:02.the programme which has been stopped in Wales, very much about providing

:14:03. > :14:07.some community experience, and people leaving the teaching

:14:08. > :14:09.workforce. Universities, our national challenge is to bring

:14:10. > :14:16.people into the workforce, and retain them. In particular relation

:14:17. > :14:26.to Teach First. There was an article in the Guardian for Price Waterhouse

:14:27. > :14:31.Cooper, graduates that have completed a teaching convocation,

:14:32. > :14:39.going to working recruitment. They want to bring people into teaching

:14:40. > :14:45.as a career for the longer term. Morag touched on a piece of evidence

:14:46. > :14:50.around Teach First. I don't think there has been much she yet looking

:14:51. > :14:52.at other countries, other jurisdictions this quite interesting

:14:53. > :14:58.little booklet a colleague passed to me the other day, a research study

:14:59. > :15:02.by the higher education policy is a jute, looking in the past 20 or so

:15:03. > :15:09.years of development of teacher education training in England. While

:15:10. > :15:13.some of the developments in England, I do think they sit very well in the

:15:14. > :15:18.Scottish approach, there is a lot in here helpful to reflect on. If

:15:19. > :15:24.nothing else, to avoid doing the wrong thing.

:15:25. > :15:41.I can send a link to this because if it will be helpful to the committee.

:15:42. > :15:49.I will see if I can find something. I would like to look at the

:15:50. > :15:58.retention issue. A lot of this has been about bureaucracy, workloads,

:15:59. > :16:05.and I have noticed in conversation with a lot of teachers that even

:16:06. > :16:10.though there might be moves, for example for education Scotland to

:16:11. > :16:18.get rid of bureaucracy or have a less onerous inspection regime, it

:16:19. > :16:24.doesn't seem to be filtering down to teacher level and I'd like to ask

:16:25. > :16:30.you what is happening there. Is there a big expectation on teachers

:16:31. > :16:37.from their headteachers to carry out practices in a certain way or is it

:16:38. > :16:37.directors of education hats having expectation on their teaching

:16:38. > :16:55.cohort? Teacher shortages did feature in the

:16:56. > :17:01.work review carried out, although it was on assessment and reporting.

:17:02. > :17:05.Local authorities, teachers and head teachers took the opportunity to

:17:06. > :17:16.raise the issue of teacher shortages. All of which leads to

:17:17. > :17:21.less time for learning and teaching, carrying out extra duties. The

:17:22. > :17:27.Deputy First Minister has written to local authorities less in the

:17:28. > :17:31.important of taking -- the importance of taking action. We have

:17:32. > :17:37.put good practice on the websites as a way of tackling some of the issues

:17:38. > :17:44.they get in the way it, in the road of teaching every day. Where young

:17:45. > :17:49.people are, preparing reports, it can take a lot of time and we have

:17:50. > :17:56.some good examples of local authority sharing that, and that is

:17:57. > :18:03.now national improvement hub. I want to see local authorities taking this

:18:04. > :18:12.very seriously. It should be taken seriously by all the partners so

:18:13. > :18:27.that it reaches down to teacher level. We've heard from a lot of

:18:28. > :18:32.people that although inspections are not as difficult as they were, and

:18:33. > :18:38.vain courage good practice, working with the schools to improve, rather

:18:39. > :18:44.than just a judgment situation, that in a lot of schools, people are

:18:45. > :18:50.still finding them very stressful in terms of preparation and lead up

:18:51. > :19:00.because there's expectation either from the local authority or running

:19:01. > :19:07.the school. If you are relating headteachers' retention being a bit

:19:08. > :19:13.of an itchy following -- and issue following an inspection,

:19:14. > :19:20.of an itchy following -- an issue following an

:19:21. > :19:32.I'd prefer not say. There is sheen has changed quite remarkably over

:19:33. > :19:46.the last five years. -- be regime will

:19:47. > :19:55.stop this is an exercise in sharing, of understanding and there are

:19:56. > :20:07.challenges in the school. The regime is trying to be more flexible. I

:20:08. > :20:19.would be struggling to find a link in there. Of workload. I was using

:20:20. > :20:23.that as an example, getting rid of the unnecessary workload at the top

:20:24. > :20:31.level, but it is not filtering down. That's one of the examples that is

:20:32. > :20:39.highlighted. I would have the same concerns about making that link.

:20:40. > :20:44.It's just a sample example. It's not an ongoing, big issue for schools,

:20:45. > :20:53.however the lead up to inspection is a stressful event and it does

:20:54. > :21:00.increase the workload in the run-up to that. The inspectorate have been

:21:01. > :21:08.doing tryouts of short notice inspections, two days notice, and we

:21:09. > :21:13.welcome that. We have been getting feedback from members for a long

:21:14. > :21:25.time and we are resenting this to education Scotland as a potential

:21:26. > :21:29.direction to take. -- presenting. Hyperbole, we will see more of the

:21:30. > :21:33.short notice inspections in the not too distant future because that is

:21:34. > :21:41.something we would welcome, particularly in primary education

:21:42. > :21:52.and very large establishments or large classes.

:21:53. > :22:02.The top seven priorities are production, removal of class cover.

:22:03. > :22:07.Secondly, they would like more protected management time or a

:22:08. > :22:14.greater team because in a number of of authorities, they've seen the

:22:15. > :22:22.number of personnel reduced or the management time reduced. And that is

:22:23. > :22:30.a decision made by the local authority in terms of that

:22:31. > :22:40.structure? Yes. It is not until... Could you be brief, please? After

:22:41. > :22:48.that, it is proper support for additional support needs pupils.

:22:49. > :22:55.Thank you. I would like to look at the issue around retention of

:22:56. > :23:01.teachers, also, because it affects workforce planning. We've already

:23:02. > :23:08.talked about workload and teachers see the environment they work in as

:23:09. > :23:14.overly bureaucratic. But there are other issues as well, for example,

:23:15. > :23:19.around salaries particularly during the early years. Do you have any

:23:20. > :23:22.evidence that salaries are causing difficulty with the retention of

:23:23. > :23:33.teachers particularly in those early years? We don't have that evidence.

:23:34. > :23:36.I look at a couple of authorities in progress and for the meeting today.

:23:37. > :23:42.There doesn't seem to be a problem with retention rates, and when you

:23:43. > :23:49.look at authorities that have a less retention rate and the reasons why

:23:50. > :23:58.people leave, often it's so people can get a job where they live, so

:23:59. > :24:04.the main reasons for people leaving is to retire or get another job

:24:05. > :24:10.elsewhere. All authorities would have a system for exit interviews.

:24:11. > :24:18.You said there's not a with retention rates? I don't have the

:24:19. > :24:32.information. That is not to say that there isn't. We have some figures to

:24:33. > :24:40.back it up. We organise across the University sector a couple of

:24:41. > :24:48.surveys that look at retention to graduate destination in relation to

:24:49. > :24:55.teaching education. It round about 98% of people who have been students

:24:56. > :25:04.are in the teaching profession. We also do one that looks a bit further

:25:05. > :25:13.out, three and a half years. There are further issues the further you

:25:14. > :25:22.get out. With the caveat I've already given, it is around 97-98%.

:25:23. > :25:28.It looks higher, but I do caution that the further you get out, the

:25:29. > :25:37.more difficult it is to ensure the accuracy of statistics. If we look

:25:38. > :25:43.at absence rates, interaction lead quite positive teachers compared to

:25:44. > :25:52.other professions and council workers, so you are looking up 3-4%

:25:53. > :26:01.which is average slightly below. It seems to conflict with some of the

:26:02. > :26:06.evidence we have been taking. The other thing we looked at was the

:26:07. > :26:09.flattening of structure and the available progression that used to

:26:10. > :26:16.be there through the years. Is it valid that in a certain point in

:26:17. > :26:24.teacher's career there's an impact in their willingness to carry on? It

:26:25. > :26:32.was noted in the report is on teaching recruitment. There has been

:26:33. > :26:47.a flattening of structures, with a lack of incentivisation for people.

:26:48. > :26:51.There are issues about the structure and the opportunities for promotion.

:26:52. > :26:57.Whether that's actually encourages people to leave the profession, I

:26:58. > :27:05.don't think there is any evidence for that. People saying they want to

:27:06. > :27:10.leave or are unsatisfied and actually resigning... There's a huge

:27:11. > :27:17.difference between those two things. You would have to be very, very

:27:18. > :27:22.determined to resign a post in teaching. There are number of

:27:23. > :27:26.nuances in their of getting to the bottom of how people really feel

:27:27. > :27:33.about their job. But the evidence shows that people are not satisfied

:27:34. > :27:38.as you would want them to be in a workforce like teaching where the

:27:39. > :27:42.morale is very important. That's not to say that there are not very

:27:43. > :27:51.brilliant, energetic teachers out there. You do hear negative views

:27:52. > :27:56.about the pressure and the stress and the difficulty of doing the job

:27:57. > :28:08.without all the resources previously available. Last time, you could have

:28:09. > :28:21.conducted a survey which showed teachers were satisfied, 2001-2002.

:28:22. > :28:34.These things often come in cycles, and many times, 20 years cycles.

:28:35. > :28:41.Over a period, as pay, conditions and the economy declines, you get

:28:42. > :28:47.more dissatisfaction. All the teachers we spoke to quoted the

:28:48. > :28:53.complexity of the additional support needs within the classroom as being

:28:54. > :29:00.an issue. Obviously, teachers cannot be experts on everything. Have you

:29:01. > :29:05.had any feedback on that? Is that a reason for these retention issues

:29:06. > :29:14.down the line? I don't think there are significant retention issues.

:29:15. > :29:22.The figures don't tell me that. There seems to be two different

:29:23. > :29:25.things. Teachers thinking about leaving, but what we don't seem to

:29:26. > :29:36.get from you is that they may well say that but they don't do it. I

:29:37. > :29:41.will emphasise the statistics I was quoting. Newly graduated teachers,

:29:42. > :29:51.between six months and six and a half years, throughout the whole of

:29:52. > :29:59.its career... I don't seem to see any evidence to say that there is a

:30:00. > :30:08.problem with retention. We had 17 people leaving their post and those

:30:09. > :30:13.are the ones that area offices had supported is -- officers had

:30:14. > :30:22.supported. The workload was the issue, but that affects people's

:30:23. > :30:26.decision for applying, so it's recruitment and retention. Pay is

:30:27. > :30:33.also an issue, because as John said, the way that salaries are right that

:30:34. > :30:43.for school leaders, if you are in a larger school as a deputy, why would

:30:44. > :30:44.you take on a job as a deputy -- a headteacher in a smaller school for

:30:45. > :31:01.less money? .com John picked up the point of

:31:02. > :31:06.what had been put into the system and financial remuneration for the

:31:07. > :31:11.profession. There is no doubt there has been an erosion of teachers'

:31:12. > :31:16.terms and conditions over that period of time. It sits in the

:31:17. > :31:23.middle of any discussion in relation to retention and attraction of

:31:24. > :31:25.people into the profession. It can be made attractive. It is not

:31:26. > :31:39.something that is a major thing, but can be made attractive. The other

:31:40. > :31:42.part related to this is related to the toolkit, and the fact it is used

:31:43. > :31:45.to differentiate pay grades within senior leadership within schools in

:31:46. > :31:52.Scotland. It was not fit for purpose in the year 2000, and the system has

:31:53. > :31:56.changed significantly since that, and much of what is expected of

:31:57. > :32:02.senior leaders within Scottish secondary schools is not captured in

:32:03. > :32:08.any way by the job sizing toolkit. The thing John picked up in relation

:32:09. > :32:14.to differentials, why would you become a headteacher if the

:32:15. > :32:19.financial incentive did not exist for you to do that if you are deputy

:32:20. > :32:29.in a large secretary school -- secondary school, would you move?

:32:30. > :32:32.Issues could be moving to a small rural school, where you are not

:32:33. > :32:37.going to be financially rewarded, and you had to deal with the

:32:38. > :32:41.upheaval of moving yourself from place to a rural environment, which

:32:42. > :32:46.may be attractive, but financially is not worth your while in doing

:32:47. > :32:54.that. With the job sizing toolkit, what you're looking at is trying to

:32:55. > :33:10.run a 4G phone on a first seven card. -- SIM card. Just regarding

:33:11. > :33:17.the toolkit, it was designed some years ago, prior to CFE. There is an

:33:18. > :33:22.acknowledgement by those who use the toolkit and those who train council

:33:23. > :33:30.staff in the use of it that it is not foolproof, for the reasons I

:33:31. > :33:37.have just set out, it does not take account of the changing landscape in

:33:38. > :33:41.terms of CFE and the increase in the number of subjects that might be

:33:42. > :33:44.taught. At the time it was developed, it cost several million

:33:45. > :33:48.pounds to develop, and they do not think anyone has the budget to

:33:49. > :33:57.change that because if you change one aspect of it, you have to change

:33:58. > :34:00.everything else. So I hear what others have been saying about that,

:34:01. > :34:05.but there would be a financial disincentive at the very least and

:34:06. > :34:09.unless someone could come up with that volume of resource to change

:34:10. > :34:21.it, it is unlikely it will change in the near future. On the point around

:34:22. > :34:26.retention, is that an issue on the lack of career progression structure

:34:27. > :34:29.short of management, very quickly if you want to progress your career in

:34:30. > :34:40.teaching you have to move into management because that are not

:34:41. > :34:45.promoted posts before then? That is probably the case. The chartered

:34:46. > :34:49.teacher tried to resolve that but it was unsuccessful, I think, in doing

:34:50. > :34:54.that. It is often a job where you have to give up the expertise you

:34:55. > :34:58.have for a teacher in order to take on management responsibility. I do

:34:59. > :35:04.not think there is an easy solution to that. I know that in the

:35:05. > :35:10.MacCormack report, there was a hint or suggestion that you could award

:35:11. > :35:18.short-term additional payments in a way that the structure of teaching

:35:19. > :35:21.in England successfully dead, where you could get an additional

:35:22. > :35:27.responsibility payment, which could be a different levels to develop the

:35:28. > :35:32.curriculum, reward good practice and so on. But that was not accepted. It

:35:33. > :35:39.was seen by some as, who would decide who gets them, and would it

:35:40. > :35:44.be fair, and would it reward good practice or how would you administer

:35:45. > :35:48.and manage such a reward system? So, I think there are issues about how

:35:49. > :35:56.you keep the best teachers in the classroom. Personal anecdote, but I

:35:57. > :36:03.think it is relevant. Some things you hear of excellent features, and

:36:04. > :36:06.their way out is to become against each, that is their way into

:36:07. > :36:11.management. I always think it is a real loss because people are first

:36:12. > :36:20.class teachers then create a vacancy in a shortage of subjects that are

:36:21. > :36:28.difficult to fill. White can I check, is the chartered teacher

:36:29. > :36:31.system still operating, and do you system still operating, and do you

:36:32. > :36:32.because I think that senior teacher because I think that

:36:33. > :36:34.kind of role, that was a bit of kind of role, that was a bit of

:36:35. > :36:37.extra responsibility, but the balance of time was focused in the

:36:38. > :36:49.classroom. Has there been any work on why it failed? I know why I think

:36:50. > :36:54.it failed. It kind of fell by the wayside because it ultimately did

:36:55. > :37:00.not fulfil the function that it was intended to do in the first place.

:37:01. > :37:05.That was to recognise and reward good practice and have it promoted

:37:06. > :37:08.within the School and use it within the School. What it eventually

:37:09. > :37:14.became was an exercise to go through to get yourself more paid. There is

:37:15. > :37:20.an opportunity out there with them, I would suggest, what the Scottish

:37:21. > :37:25.educational leadership is doing, to start to look at some of the things

:37:26. > :37:32.that have been suggested here, and to move on and perhaps from the

:37:33. > :37:35.original question, starting to look at leadership rather than

:37:36. > :37:39.management, and effective leadership roles that can be recognised and

:37:40. > :37:43.acknowledged and financially rewarded within the structure of

:37:44. > :37:50.leadership which is developing within the leadership framework.

:37:51. > :37:59.Universities were very much involved in the chartered teacher programme.

:38:00. > :38:02.It involved the development of a lot of programmes focused entirely on

:38:03. > :38:08.practice. Universities would feel strongly that that aspect, while we

:38:09. > :38:12.have continued to offer those programmes, the ending and closure

:38:13. > :38:20.of the chartered teacher scheme meant that teaching in Scotland did

:38:21. > :38:24.not reap the full benefits of that going back into practice, and it is

:38:25. > :38:31.an area the government have continued to support the development

:38:32. > :38:34.of Masters level learning for teachers, who are then learning

:38:35. > :38:38.through the work they do within university-based programmes, able to

:38:39. > :38:46.lead developments within school, within clusters and contribute in a

:38:47. > :38:52.stronger way to curriculum and other developments within school that was

:38:53. > :39:01.an aspect coming through within the graduates working in schools within

:39:02. > :39:06.the programme. Finally, with Maguire has a number of questions. Line as

:39:07. > :39:12.the convener mentioned, we had a focus group with teachers last week,

:39:13. > :39:20.probably want to put on record our thanks to them for the frank and

:39:21. > :39:25.open discussions we had with them, it was very valuable. We asked the

:39:26. > :39:36.teacher is what questions we will ask you. I will ask you some of them

:39:37. > :39:41.now. What planning to education authorities have for long-term

:39:42. > :39:50.leave, like maternity leave on an anticipation of people taking

:39:51. > :40:01.planned retirement? John has made reference to the fact that those who

:40:02. > :40:08.wish to retire from teaching with a few months notice of their intention

:40:09. > :40:16.guitar, so that can cause issues in terms of making decisions on

:40:17. > :40:28.recruitment and workforce planning. Maternity is a different prospect,

:40:29. > :40:31.and the information will be offered depending on the individual

:40:32. > :40:34.circumstances. I suppose the other factor is whether or not they decide

:40:35. > :40:38.to take the full year off at the other end, or decide to come back

:40:39. > :40:43.earlier, which is very much a personal decision, sold these

:40:44. > :40:50.factors have to be brought into this. Undoubtedly, communication

:40:51. > :40:56.from the teacher to the school to the education authority is key to

:40:57. > :41:00.all of that, and I am sure there are always better ways that can be done

:41:01. > :41:05.to encourage clear workforce planning as a result. I suppose you

:41:06. > :41:10.are setting out what happens, but what planning to local authorities

:41:11. > :41:14.and education departments do, because you deal particularly

:41:15. > :41:18.with... I take on board year comments about two months notice for

:41:19. > :41:27.retirement, but for maternity leave, you will often, I would imagine,

:41:28. > :41:32.have a longer lead up to that. Staffing is a big responsibility,

:41:33. > :41:37.and indeed authorities will have dedicated, at least one person or a

:41:38. > :41:41.whole staffing section within the service, within corporate personnel,

:41:42. > :41:45.so part of a headteacher's anxiety and worry will be staffing, so there

:41:46. > :41:49.will be regular visits to schools to look at those issues, and a

:41:50. > :41:54.headteacher would be the first to know if someone has gone off on

:41:55. > :42:00.maternity leave or the is an idea that someone may or may not retire,

:42:01. > :42:04.they may not inform the authority until the last minute, which is

:42:05. > :42:11.understandable, and they will plan on that basis, they will be able to

:42:12. > :42:15.do it from within their own staff, the wrong contacts, and if that

:42:16. > :42:19.fails there will be a wider search. Often those kind of issues are

:42:20. > :42:24.tackled before you start filling posts with probationers and new

:42:25. > :42:28.people, so there is a staffing timetable that starts with primary

:42:29. > :42:34.one enrolment, going all the way through to August, ending up with

:42:35. > :42:38.the staffing in the school so those are dependent on how much notice the

:42:39. > :42:44.headteacher in the school gets, but that planning would start early,

:42:45. > :42:57.Andy could be drawn locally, from the supplied bull, and if there a

:42:58. > :43:04.permanent pool, it can be filled before getting to the probationer

:43:05. > :43:10.teachers, and then a wider advert, so there almost a set of Russian

:43:11. > :43:16.dolls before you go externally to try to fill the roles. On the topic

:43:17. > :43:24.of recruitment has well, one of the questions they post was, why are

:43:25. > :43:27.they required to use the online portal? An example was given that a

:43:28. > :43:32.small school wanted to hire a support Assistant, and posting on

:43:33. > :43:37.that portal reserve -- resulted in 300 applications for the job, which

:43:38. > :43:42.meant the recruitment process was pretty onerous. My job was set up

:43:43. > :43:47.principally to help councils cut costs in terms of advertising,

:43:48. > :43:56.particularly in teaching, but not restricted to teaching posts. My job

:43:57. > :44:04.team monitors this on a fairly regular basis, and I'm looking at a

:44:05. > :44:17.document I received from a colleague last week, saying savings are

:44:18. > :44:24.significant in relation to this, but it depends on the type of post it

:44:25. > :44:29.as. My job has an engagement with tests on an promoted posts, which is

:44:30. > :44:36.taken down at no additional costs, so there is an opportunity to

:44:37. > :44:39.further expand the range of which posts are advertised. Other posts

:44:40. > :44:44.through other online sites, where there is no additional cost, and the

:44:45. > :44:49.point I'm trying to make is trying to save councils money by taking it

:44:50. > :44:55.on through the portal. We are also trying to develop a supply portal to

:44:56. > :45:00.tackle some of the other issues we have already discussed this morning,

:45:01. > :45:05.and to look at that in terms of post recruitment and regularly booking

:45:06. > :45:14.supply teachers for different posts. But it was done because it was a

:45:15. > :45:19.cost saving to councils because the advertising costs through print

:45:20. > :45:27.media were becoming unsustainable. Thank you. The next questions after

:45:28. > :45:35.education Scotland. I will just -- the questions are from education

:45:36. > :45:41.Scotland. Du education Scotland and SQA communicate with each other?

:45:42. > :45:45.LAUGHTER Yes, we do. Did very regular meetings. It

:45:46. > :45:57.happens in different forums nationally, where we have local

:45:58. > :46:07.government and SQA meetings, but we also have direct links to our team

:46:08. > :46:14.of curriculum experts,... But why would a teacher think you do not

:46:15. > :46:20.communicate well with them? -- with SQA? I would be interested to

:46:21. > :46:20.explore that, it is not something I would recognise from our

:46:21. > :46:36.discussions. Another thing that came up was about

:46:37. > :46:41.the documents. Do you consider that the documents issued to teachers

:46:42. > :46:50.suggest that education Scotland treats teachers as professionals?

:46:51. > :46:55.It's been absolutely our intention since it started. If we go back to

:46:56. > :47:00.the links with the SQA, where there is a major change in any

:47:01. > :47:06.qualification, be it computer science could be changing because of

:47:07. > :47:10.revised experiences and outcomes, or science in the past, the materials

:47:11. > :47:15.we provide are aimed at professionals. They are not telling

:47:16. > :47:24.teachers what to do. It's examples of the kinds of approaches that can

:47:25. > :47:34.be taken. Other groups giving feedback? If there is literacy and

:47:35. > :47:40.numeracy issues then there is a feedback loop. There's also a

:47:41. > :47:47.general enquiries feedback e-mail the people if they wish to contact

:47:48. > :47:54.us. That brings us to the end of the first panel, so thank you all for

:47:55. > :47:59.your attendance and you have answered many questions. Give me a

:48:00. > :51:37.couple of minutes and I will change panels.

:51:38. > :51:49.We will move onto second panel. We have two members from the GT CS.

:51:50. > :52:07.If you can answer some of the questions on the ITE. Giving your

:52:08. > :52:11.role in accreditation, what are your reflections on how teacher training

:52:12. > :52:18.needs to adapt to a curriculum for excellence. What lessons have been

:52:19. > :52:24.learned in the process? I would go back to my previous experience as

:52:25. > :52:27.Chief inspector of education for education Scotland, where we had a

:52:28. > :52:39.legal responsibility to undertake the review of the initial programme

:52:40. > :52:43.at the Minister's behest. Six or seven years ago, the universities

:52:44. > :52:47.were approached by inspectors to look at the curriculum for

:52:48. > :52:54.excellence and there was a process we undertook and we were not as well

:52:55. > :52:58.prepared as we might have hoped for, but at the second stage, they had

:52:59. > :53:05.shown particular improvement. What we've seen is a genuine attempt by

:53:06. > :53:10.university programmes to meet the needs of the curriculum needs, it's

:53:11. > :53:14.very complex and wide-ranging. Teachers require this through their

:53:15. > :53:21.initial teaching programme so I suggest that universities have come

:53:22. > :53:24.a long wait. That's not to say that the programme covers incompletion

:53:25. > :53:30.what is needed to provide the curriculum for excellence

:53:31. > :53:38.completely. There is still a way to go and teachers need to understand

:53:39. > :53:45.the philosophy behind it so it can be implemented successfully. In our

:53:46. > :53:51.evidence we focused on literacy and numeracy. Do you think that is one

:53:52. > :53:57.of the areas that needs renewed focus? I think it's important that

:53:58. > :54:01.the committee to understand that there are credits and a six year

:54:02. > :54:04.basis. I think a lot of the programmes that were being referred

:54:05. > :54:11.to by witnesses in the previous hearings were programmes we

:54:12. > :54:21.accredited for five or six years ago. We have got a programme of

:54:22. > :54:24.reaccreditation coming up. The focus on literacy, numeracy, digital

:54:25. > :54:28.literacy and health and well-being was less prominent when we

:54:29. > :54:34.accredited those programmes that many students coming through the

:54:35. > :54:38.system have experience. Last year, because of our expectations and the

:54:39. > :54:42.feedback we had from the universities, there was a strong

:54:43. > :54:48.sense that we needed to do more through this process on the likes of

:54:49. > :54:59.the following subjects, literacy, numeracy, health. We submitted this

:55:00. > :55:04.is part of our submissions to you. And as you will see, digital

:55:05. > :55:10.literacy and health and well-being feature more prominently. In the

:55:11. > :55:14.last session, we have accredited a number of university programmes, and

:55:15. > :55:24.in some of those, we have commented on how these aspects are needed to

:55:25. > :55:29.be developed in those various areas. You have also countered concerned

:55:30. > :55:36.that the faculties were learning about learning rather than helping

:55:37. > :55:42.student- teachers develop technique. Is that a balance that you think

:55:43. > :55:48.needs to be looked at again? When we accredited programmes, we are

:55:49. > :55:51.looking for a balance of theory and practice, and I think it is

:55:52. > :55:57.important to understand that particularly when we have a one-year

:55:58. > :56:05.postgraduate programme, it is in fact one year, and then it is

:56:06. > :56:15.followed up by a probation probation year, in a school, where the

:56:16. > :56:18.probationers build up a salary. What we are looking for when we are

:56:19. > :56:24.crediting a programme is to make sure that there is enough scope for

:56:25. > :56:28.teachers to understand the complexities of teaching, because we

:56:29. > :56:37.know it is not an easy job. There are folk round this table who have

:56:38. > :56:43.been teachers in the past. There is a chance to develop the theory into

:56:44. > :56:50.practice, while being supported in that probation area. We have this

:56:51. > :56:55.programme to assist student teachers as best as possible in order to

:56:56. > :56:59.become fully fledged teachers. I have one more question. You say you

:57:00. > :57:08.are responsible for accreditation and that's been looked at again for

:57:09. > :57:11.a number of institutions. Are you responsible for accreditation but

:57:12. > :57:18.not the implementation which you think should rest with education

:57:19. > :57:23.Scotland? There is certainly a disjoint there. The university

:57:24. > :57:35.programmes before they come to us for accreditation, there is a queue

:57:36. > :57:43.a a oversight and inspectors can take thematic aspect review. The

:57:44. > :57:47.General teaching council doesn't have that statutory responsibility,

:57:48. > :57:57.but we do work very closely with the Scottish council and the deans of

:57:58. > :58:04.education. We take the back on the success or otherwise of the

:58:05. > :58:09.fermentation of the teacher programme, but there is a disjoint

:58:10. > :58:14.there, having a body of credits but not having a quality assurance role

:58:15. > :58:26.in the implementation. Thank you, Daniel. I wanted to ask is a

:58:27. > :58:31.registered member, one of the concerns we've had given previous

:58:32. > :58:37.panels, is the workforce planning issue and the fact that students

:58:38. > :58:41.have raised concerns that there is a lack of consistency in some of the

:58:42. > :58:48.delivery of the programme and we have heard this morning that there

:58:49. > :58:52.are some real issues, some issues with the definitions of workforce

:58:53. > :58:56.planning and what the numbers mean. Were you surprised to hear the

:58:57. > :59:04.evidence that came particularly from the body to weeks ago with

:59:05. > :59:08.criticisms that some workforce planning, for some student trainees

:59:09. > :59:16.wasn't really working. Were you surprised by that? We do take

:59:17. > :59:26.feedback from students and I have to say I was surprised and I would have

:59:27. > :59:31.expected more positivity then perhaps the committee heard. I'm not

:59:32. > :59:41.denying that the issues weren't perfectly valid, but I go back to

:59:42. > :59:45.the Donaldson report, published last year, and there were questions as to

:59:46. > :59:52.what extent students felt that their initial teacher education programme

:59:53. > :00:02.prepared them for moving into the probationary year. The figure of 92%

:00:03. > :00:07.response to that ITE would seem to suggest that whilst there are

:00:08. > :00:13.undoubtedly individual teachers and students having some difficulty with

:00:14. > :00:18.the system, it's a system that in the main that produces teachers who

:00:19. > :00:26.are as ready as they can be, as we have heard from witnesses. It's

:00:27. > :00:30.called ITE for a reason. It is initial teacher education.

:00:31. > :00:35.Particularly when is a one-year postgraduate programme, then it is

:00:36. > :00:40.very difficult and it isn't and on the universities to try and include

:00:41. > :00:45.as much as they can, in a practical sense in making the link between the

:00:46. > :00:53.theories of teaching and learning and the practice, in order to cover

:00:54. > :00:58.the full gamut. When you look at the range of additional support needs

:00:59. > :01:04.that teachers are confronted with in schools now, to adequately prepare a

:01:05. > :01:10.student teacher for that whole damn it of support needs, it's a big ask.

:01:11. > :01:17.Not to say it shouldn't be touched on, and it is often touched on in

:01:18. > :01:22.ITE programmes, but it could be much better and I think there is

:01:23. > :01:27.certainly inconsistency in terms of the content analysis report from

:01:28. > :01:30.Scottish Government last week in the coverage of numeracy, literacy and

:01:31. > :01:38.health and well-being. To some extent it's how you measure up what

:01:39. > :01:39.these things are. It's some of the reasons why there's so much

:01:40. > :01:59.variation. From what we have seen in the five

:02:00. > :02:03.programmes we have accredited this year, although we are giving some

:02:04. > :02:06.recommendations to some of those programmes to improve that

:02:07. > :02:12.generally, I think it has been taken on board positively by the

:02:13. > :02:16.universities. Could I just follow up on the concerns we had that the

:02:17. > :02:21.quality of some of the placement experience was very variable.

:02:22. > :02:26.Notwithstanding the fact that many students were positive about that

:02:27. > :02:30.placement, there were other students making the case that they were

:02:31. > :02:37.simply used as cover, more or less to make the coffee, and they did not

:02:38. > :02:42.have a quality experience. If I rate, one of the changes have made

:02:43. > :02:48.is to move from an opt in system to an opt out system. Could I clarify

:02:49. > :02:52.whether that opt out will refer to an individual school, or whether it

:02:53. > :02:58.will referred to individual departments within that school. If I

:02:59. > :03:04.understood matters correctly, a couple of years ago we had problems

:03:05. > :03:10.with departments not accepting trainees, and that has been part of

:03:11. > :03:15.the issue about these quality issues. Perhaps you could clarify. I

:03:16. > :03:23.would start off by saying the student placement system operates,

:03:24. > :03:26.it is a partnership between the schools, local authorities and

:03:27. > :03:30.universities, we operate the machinery. It is for those

:03:31. > :03:34.partnerships between schools, local authorities and universities to

:03:35. > :03:39.ensure that the information that goes into the system, where they are

:03:40. > :03:42.travelling from, whether they are travelling by private transport,

:03:43. > :03:47.whether they are looking for a denominational school, and so on, it

:03:48. > :03:50.is a requirement on those partnerships to make sure there are

:03:51. > :03:54.sufficient placements and all of that data is accurate before it

:03:55. > :03:58.comes to the General teaching Council. We simply crank the handle

:03:59. > :04:02.than those ingredients have been put in. What comes out either

:04:03. > :04:05.placements. There is a student placement Management group which has

:04:06. > :04:11.representation from all of stakeholders, we also have a user

:04:12. > :04:14.group which is largely made up of folk who operate the system at the

:04:15. > :04:21.sharp end. There are certainly a number of students who find out

:04:22. > :04:23.relatively late because they recognise that -- I recognise that

:04:24. > :04:33.has been one of the issues, that they are placed in a particular

:04:34. > :04:38.school. Where we have postgraduates coming into teacher education, they

:04:39. > :04:42.may not find out that they are eligible to come onto that cause

:04:43. > :04:47.until they receive their SQA results, which come out at the end

:04:48. > :04:52.of the first week in August. The first placements that some

:04:53. > :04:56.university programmes have in place take place at the end of August.

:04:57. > :05:01.That gives us basically a two or three week window for the

:05:02. > :05:09.universities to feed the information into the system. And for the

:05:10. > :05:12.placements to be identified, for the schools then to confirm the

:05:13. > :05:15.placements are still valid, the local authorities to confirm they

:05:16. > :05:21.are content with them, and for the information to be sent out to the

:05:22. > :05:30.students concerned. So I think we have made steps to improve the

:05:31. > :05:33.system so that people find out as early as they possibly can. One of

:05:34. > :05:42.the changes this year that the management group have made is to run

:05:43. > :05:46.the placements at the start of the year. Last year we split it by term,

:05:47. > :05:50.and that caused more problems probably than it solved. Effectively

:05:51. > :05:56.the system, if the ingredients coming into the machinery are

:05:57. > :06:00.adequate, and enough placements agreed between schools, local

:06:01. > :06:06.authorities and universities, and these are prerequisites, we can

:06:07. > :06:11.produce 18,000 perfectly valid placements which agree with the

:06:12. > :06:16.protocols which have been set, and I know travel times have been an

:06:17. > :06:25.issue. We just want to come back on that. It is related about the

:06:26. > :06:29.accuracy of this data. The bottom line we are concerned about is we

:06:30. > :06:33.have a shortage of teachers and there are people out there who would

:06:34. > :06:37.like to be able to teach, but for one reason or another they feel

:06:38. > :06:45.there are constraints within the system preventing them being in the

:06:46. > :06:48.classroom. I was concerned from the previous panel that no one is able

:06:49. > :06:56.to explain exactly why these barriers are in place. What I am

:06:57. > :07:02.driving at is, what do we have to do to ensure that all those teachers

:07:03. > :07:08.who are accredited and want to teach are actually able to do so? In your

:07:09. > :07:13.opinion, where is the blocking in the system that is preventing more

:07:14. > :07:17.people coming into the teaching profession, and ensuring we get them

:07:18. > :07:25.into a very good job? Where are the blocks? I think the committee has

:07:26. > :07:33.heard evidence around the status of the teaching profession. I think

:07:34. > :07:43.that is an issue. I think some of the issues around teaching, it is a

:07:44. > :07:46.block. This was to allow people to have more flexibility in how to

:07:47. > :07:51.train to become a teacher. An example of that would be the teacher

:07:52. > :07:55.induction scheme which covers the probationary year. There are blocks

:07:56. > :08:00.within that in that it is only allowed for those who fulfil it in a

:08:01. > :08:06.full-time basis, and it is only home funded students who are eligible for

:08:07. > :08:11.it. GT sees Scotland has been doing a lot of work with jurisdiction in

:08:12. > :08:15.other parts of the world to try to encourage teachers to come to

:08:16. > :08:27.Scotland. We know from the survey we did and we have copy of it, people

:08:28. > :08:33.have lapsed on the register. One of the reasons for that is people being

:08:34. > :08:37.unable to secure a job in Scotland, or being traded -- trained in

:08:38. > :08:43.Scotland and then they change and Visa requirements meant they could

:08:44. > :08:44.not continue the job abroad. So I think there is something around

:08:45. > :08:53.greater flexibility in allowing people into the profession to better

:08:54. > :08:57.meet their needs. It is better that you are full-time student and fulfil

:08:58. > :09:02.a four-year programme. We need to look at ways -- at ways we can look

:09:03. > :09:08.at more flexibility for teacher education programmes, and those who

:09:09. > :09:11.want to change career to coming to the teaching profession. That has

:09:12. > :09:17.never really been an issue where we have a surplus of teachers in the

:09:18. > :09:20.past. I think there are issues about immigration, and they are not

:09:21. > :09:25.helpful. But I think there are other issues that we have teachers who are

:09:26. > :09:27.perfectly well qualified and experienced from other

:09:28. > :09:37.jurisdictions, who would like to teach in Scotland, and we want to

:09:38. > :09:48.encourage that. There are issues with getting people accredited, and

:09:49. > :09:53.I'm interested to know... I think it is vital to free up those who are

:09:54. > :09:57.properly accredited, it is right it is a properly accredited profession,

:09:58. > :10:01.but they are able to teach in Scotland. I know the team have been

:10:02. > :10:05.doing a lot of work on the education of teachers to try to increase the

:10:06. > :10:09.flexibility. Ellen may want to see something around that. Line just to

:10:10. > :10:13.bring it back to another point, there is also those who would want

:10:14. > :10:18.to return to teaching, I am always interested to hear about those who

:10:19. > :10:21.around year five have decided it is time to have their family, which is

:10:22. > :10:26.absolutely great, keeping a number of children in Scotland -- the

:10:27. > :10:31.number of children in Scotland schools we wanted to be, but that

:10:32. > :10:34.can then turn into a career break and the curriculum moves on, and

:10:35. > :10:37.teachers then do not want to feel as if they do not know. So one of the

:10:38. > :10:43.barriers is, what is available to support them to them to return to

:10:44. > :10:46.teaching? These are people with Scottish education system have

:10:47. > :10:50.already invested in, so they need that support. Edinburgh University

:10:51. > :10:55.has already designed a to teaching programme which will be disseminated

:10:56. > :11:08.nationally. That as a way of bringing what we have already.

:11:09. > :11:12.Diversity is important, including those who work abroad are outside

:11:13. > :11:13.Scotland, and it is a qualification framework which is the underpinning

:11:14. > :11:54.the work of People coming with some of the

:11:55. > :11:57.-based requirements have a learning gap, and we are setting up

:11:58. > :12:01.programmes from professional learning to allow them to be in our

:12:02. > :12:07.schools but to maintain that quality at the same time, so we now have a

:12:08. > :12:10.full range of registration categories, full registration,

:12:11. > :12:13.provisional registration for probationers, provisional

:12:14. > :12:18.conditional registration for those coming from abroad as well, and that

:12:19. > :12:21.includes provisional conditional registration for those who wish to

:12:22. > :12:28.move from the college sector into the secondary sector. That is the

:12:29. > :12:37.way we have moved, to help those who are in college bring STEM expertise,

:12:38. > :12:42.where there is a shortage. And to take that expertise and help the

:12:43. > :12:50.school system. So we are actively looking at not a deficit model, but

:12:51. > :12:57.what people can bring, and we're looking at quality. My last point,

:12:58. > :13:00.how many possible teachers, potential teachers, are on your

:13:01. > :13:07.books just now, awaiting credit each and because they have come from

:13:08. > :13:12.another jurisdiction? -- awaiting accreditation? We can supply a

:13:13. > :13:17.definitive numbers because they change daily, but I am happy to see

:13:18. > :13:20.that from January this year, throughout the number of

:13:21. > :13:28.registrations that we have had to take forward is about 452. It would

:13:29. > :13:31.be helpful to get that. I wanted to ask a question specifically on some

:13:32. > :13:39.of the information you gave a reply to Louis Smith about -- Elizabeth

:13:40. > :13:42.Smith, about the placements and difficulties we heard about in terms

:13:43. > :13:47.of being told quite late in the peace where they were going. How

:13:48. > :13:57.long have you been running education and postgraduate education

:13:58. > :14:01.throughout Scotland? In terms of the student placement system? This is

:14:02. > :14:05.our third year of it. And how long have universities known when the SQA

:14:06. > :14:09.bits out that exam results and people find out when they are going

:14:10. > :14:16.to university at the start of August? How long is that system in

:14:17. > :14:20.place? Well, what I was talking about were students who are awaiting

:14:21. > :14:27.confirmation that they have been accepted for the programme. Saw how

:14:28. > :14:38.long has that system been in place? My understanding it has been quite

:14:39. > :14:42.some years? Yes, -- yes, it has. And it takes until then to know whether

:14:43. > :14:45.they have been accepted for a programme to start in September.

:14:46. > :14:54.With a student placement programme, the placement patterns the

:14:55. > :15:02.universities have, this coming year they will start on the 29th of

:15:03. > :15:05.August. Why? It is a good question, but one of the questions we ask of

:15:06. > :15:10.the programmes we are now accrediting under the new

:15:11. > :15:15.accreditation criteria is, do those programmes allow for them to be

:15:16. > :15:20.contained within the student placement system in a way that is

:15:21. > :15:26.practical and does not create the kind of difficulties we have had in

:15:27. > :15:29.the last few years. What would be needed in order to change that would

:15:30. > :15:33.be a different placement patterns and different time of placement

:15:34. > :15:37.starting within the universities. There are some universities that do

:15:38. > :15:40.not start their placement until September, and it is one in

:15:41. > :15:44.particular that does not start their placement until January, but that

:15:45. > :15:51.would be more a question for the universities in terms of what it is

:15:52. > :15:54.they are looking for in their programme and how they balance up

:15:55. > :16:07.the delivery of the theory with the practice on placement.

:16:08. > :16:14.Why are you allowing universities to have different placements, when

:16:15. > :16:21.others can plan their story you, four, five months later? I don't

:16:22. > :16:30.think they are impractical. For some individuals. We are asking the

:16:31. > :16:36.universities when we accredited programmes, now we have this student

:16:37. > :16:43.system in place, is, is it feasible that it fits in to the student

:16:44. > :16:51.placement system in that it doesn't create the difficulties we have had

:16:52. > :16:55.in the past? To make the point that concerns late notification just for

:16:56. > :17:05.the first time, throughout the student experience, so I wondered

:17:06. > :17:12.whether in the process you are recognising the changing nature

:17:13. > :17:21.where people are older or have family responsibility. I accept that

:17:22. > :17:27.you are running a machine, but it's what you feed into the machine that

:17:28. > :17:32.makes the difference. It's a huge difference if you have family

:17:33. > :17:41.responsibilities and I am wondering if that is allowed for in the

:17:42. > :17:46.process? When the system operates, there is always the opportunity when

:17:47. > :17:52.we produce the placements for universities or schools to reject

:17:53. > :17:56.that placement, and often when we find universities reject placements

:17:57. > :18:02.is because of personal circumstance is. So, we are not at the initial

:18:03. > :18:09.stage of putting the ingredients into the machine, or example, asking

:18:10. > :18:13.if they have caring arrangements... But that feels like you are building

:18:14. > :18:20.in a delay. If I have a young family, I will not be able to do a

:18:21. > :18:25.placement which is an hour and a half away on public transport.

:18:26. > :18:31.Surely if you want me to come into teaching with an older -- as an

:18:32. > :18:37.older person, with experience, you need to reduce the barriers. People

:18:38. > :18:43.had already have no salary for a year. Argue looking at developing a

:18:44. > :18:53.system that is sensitive to that rather than creating tension and

:18:54. > :19:02.stress. There are a couple of answers. There are are a couple of

:19:03. > :19:07.individual universities that know the students and can put in a

:19:08. > :19:10.placement that is more appropriate to the needs of that individual.

:19:11. > :19:19.This system doesn't do that from the off... We could certainly look at

:19:20. > :19:23.that and it is certainly something Management group overseeing it has

:19:24. > :19:29.considered because we do good and I is that when placements are

:19:30. > :19:33.rejected, it tends to be because of personal, family related

:19:34. > :19:39.circumstances. In terms of their travel time, that has been agreed,

:19:40. > :19:48.that protocol, that 90 minute protocol was agreed with University

:19:49. > :20:00.as being appropriate. The average time the students travelling is

:20:01. > :20:04.about 26 minutes using SPS. As the organisation that turns the handle,

:20:05. > :20:12.we want to make the placements as sensitive as possible. Thank you for

:20:13. > :20:22.that and I think it would be worth while reflecting on these concerns,

:20:23. > :20:31.cutting out slack in the system. I wonder, do you monitor closely this

:20:32. > :20:39.question of mentoring, give a ring -- should given that it is so

:20:40. > :20:39.important, question of mentoring,

:20:40. > :20:52.give a ring --given that it is so Are you monitoring this mentoring

:20:53. > :21:01.role, is it something you are looking at? Absolutely. We have

:21:02. > :21:10.referred to the accredited programmes. Time is set aside in the

:21:11. > :21:18.probation year the mentoring but in this student year, not so much so.

:21:19. > :21:23.We are actively asking universities as to how Mentor 's are being

:21:24. > :21:33.decided for students and making the point that mentoring is a particular

:21:34. > :21:37.role. Do these individuals have the skills and abilities to lay the

:21:38. > :21:45.foundations early on? Some universities have in fact develop

:21:46. > :21:56.modules to help Mentor support students and student teachers. That

:21:57. > :22:04.has improved across the board. I will be brief and I am conscious of

:22:05. > :22:10.time. Can we go back to additional support needs? It's an incredibly

:22:11. > :22:17.broad spectrum of needs, and that teacher will not get the full gamut

:22:18. > :22:30.of that knowledge in their first years. But there is such a division.

:22:31. > :22:38.They have been issues where it has been an optional module in the

:22:39. > :22:44.fourth year which seems ridiculous. We have tried to deal with this 3-D

:22:45. > :22:49.accreditation process. One of the things we make very clear in our

:22:50. > :22:53.programme is that if there are electives or modules that are not

:22:54. > :22:59.part of the mainstream programme, then we need to look closely as to

:23:00. > :23:05.whether there should be additional support needs. If you look at the

:23:06. > :23:10.criteria, you will see that there is a strong expectation that those

:23:11. > :23:17.programmes contain enough of a baseline, so teachers when they are

:23:18. > :23:19.going into classes, or teachers in placements, I getting enough

:23:20. > :23:26.experience of support to try and deal with at least the mainstream

:23:27. > :23:30.areas of support needs. De erected knives that that isn't happening,

:23:31. > :23:46.based on the evidence we have received? -- do you recognise. We

:23:47. > :23:50.need to remember that the preparation year is really the

:23:51. > :23:59.beginnings of the career for teachers. We need to look at how

:24:00. > :24:03.these teachers are supported beyond that probationary year, as a teacher

:24:04. > :24:10.myself there would be youngsters coming into my classroom he brought

:24:11. > :24:14.particular difficulties that I hadn't been exposed to either

:24:15. > :24:21.through the education or the teaching year, so there's something

:24:22. > :24:23.about that ongoing engagement that teachers have in their own

:24:24. > :24:37.professional learning, how to deal with some of these young people in a

:24:38. > :24:41.practical sense. It's briefly about flexibility, this question. I wanted

:24:42. > :24:46.to know about flexibility in the probation year and I wondered if you

:24:47. > :24:53.could comment on your old in ensuring there is some flexibility

:24:54. > :24:58.in retaining teachers. Things like caring commitments and other

:24:59. > :25:03.commitments, outside the profession. We are considering that, in terms of

:25:04. > :25:08.where we can support teachers. The teaching population is changing and

:25:09. > :25:15.therefore we need to be more sensitive to that, so the probation

:25:16. > :25:19.year at the moment is being reflected on, could it be delivered

:25:20. > :25:31.on a part-time basis or flexibly over a 2- year period. You could do

:25:32. > :25:34.the induction year, which is the standard approach, but some

:25:35. > :25:45.circumstance is don't allow them to do that with less support. We are

:25:46. > :25:49.aware of the inequality of the experience and there's a significant

:25:50. > :25:55.piece of work being carried out the GDC to deal with that, not just in

:25:56. > :26:05.terms of mentoring, but supporting individuals to make sure we retain

:26:06. > :26:14.and maintain standards. Can I add that we are involved in an EU

:26:15. > :26:37.distance learning, looking at it from an educational perspective.

:26:38. > :26:42.What the ups and downs sides are of moving into a greater element of

:26:43. > :26:46.distance learning in terms of ITE programmes. We would open up

:26:47. > :26:56.flexibility to what is required in the system now. We have questions

:26:57. > :27:03.from teachers from our focus group. Why is the amount of paperwork or

:27:04. > :27:13.online work increasing to verify teachers' actions? Teacher should be

:27:14. > :27:20.trusted to make the standards. I'll take this one. What is being

:27:21. > :27:26.referred to is the requirement to have teachers professional learning

:27:27. > :27:29.signed off as part of a professional update, and that was something that

:27:30. > :27:38.was required of us by Scottish Government. It has been a success.

:27:39. > :27:46.It is a system that requires teachers to lobbying soon electronic

:27:47. > :27:50.system and record their professional learning, considering its impact. It

:27:51. > :27:56.is no different to any other profession, what we are expecting of

:27:57. > :27:59.teachers. We do evaluation exercise in terms of these updates on what we

:28:00. > :28:07.find is that when we investigate the queries that coming, when concerns

:28:08. > :28:14.are expressed. Very few are around the system that we operate. We find

:28:15. > :28:19.things like it's the infrastructure or the broadband width within the

:28:20. > :28:25.local authority that doesn't allow them to access their accounts as

:28:26. > :28:29.readily as they would like. When I was at a school in Glasgow, the

:28:30. > :28:35.headteacher said, I will switch on the computer so I can access the

:28:36. > :28:43.Internet by the end of lunchtime. These are the kind of issues our

:28:44. > :28:49.teachers face. The truth of the matter is that when teachers have

:28:50. > :28:54.found difficulty with this system, it is very of Dylan not because of

:28:55. > :28:59.bureaucracy but getting logged on and using the system. The

:29:00. > :29:05.restriction is not one of our system but it's one of broadband width

:29:06. > :29:15.which covers other aspects of life, as well. I'm not sure how that

:29:16. > :29:23.answered the question really! It was the question of why don't you trust

:29:24. > :29:34.us. What is your reflection on them using peer assessment. On the area

:29:35. > :29:38.of trust, part of our role of the General teaching council is to

:29:39. > :29:44.promote teacher professionalism and embedded in that is the value of

:29:45. > :29:50.trust and we absolutely feel that the profession should be trusted. It

:29:51. > :30:00.should perhaps be better understood is in terms of what it delivers the

:30:01. > :30:05.youngsters. We placed huge amounts of trust in the teaching profession

:30:06. > :30:13.and part of Miss McGuire's question was around professional learning. We

:30:14. > :30:14.are trusting teachers to engage meaningfully through professional

:30:15. > :30:33.learning and keeping up their To follow on from that, how do you

:30:34. > :30:54.trust them? What came across in the trust them? What came across in

:30:55. > :30:55.focus group that they had this focus group that they had

:30:56. > :30:55.feeling that they were treated like feeling that they were treated

:30:56. > :30:56.not fair, but not like children, not

:30:57. > :30:56.not fair, but not like professionals. How do you

:30:57. > :30:56.message across that what you have message across that what you have

:30:57. > :30:59.just told us is how you feel about them? Hopefully they are not feeling

:31:00. > :31:04.that because of something we do. Hopefully there is a wider issue

:31:05. > :31:11.about trust in teachers, and part of our role is to encourage the public

:31:12. > :31:15.to have trust in the quality of the teachers teaching children in

:31:16. > :31:19.schools these days, but I think there is a wider issue about the

:31:20. > :31:32.extent to which society at large views teaching, and has trust in

:31:33. > :31:35.teachers. That is no suggestion of the General teaching Council not

:31:36. > :31:40.having trust in the job teachers do. That brings us to the end of the

:31:41. > :31:42.evidence section, and I thank you both very much for your attendance

:31:43. > :31:48.and answering the questions. Thank you.