Syrian Refugee Crisis Committee

:00:30. > :00:36.Order, order. One of the things we are trying to do as a committee is

:00:37. > :00:42.to follow up our earlier reports, and our first published report of

:00:43. > :00:45.this Parliament was on the issue of the Syria refugee crisis, and this

:00:46. > :00:51.is actually the second follow-up session that we have done, delighted

:00:52. > :00:58.to be welcomed by our first panel of witnesses this morning, Lord dubs,

:00:59. > :01:02.and Beth. The public session is for about an hour and a half this

:01:03. > :01:07.morning, we will spend 45 minutes with our first panel and 45 with the

:01:08. > :01:11.second panel. We have nine questions to deal with, so it is roughly five

:01:12. > :01:18.minutes per question if we stick to that. If I can ask the first

:01:19. > :01:21.question, and please introduce yourselves in responding. Do you

:01:22. > :01:30.think the Government has gone back on a commitment it made to you on

:01:31. > :01:37.child refugees? Yes, afterwards. When the immigration act went

:01:38. > :01:43.through, the then Minister, James Brogan show, told me that the

:01:44. > :01:48.Government intended to accept the letter of the amendment. It started

:01:49. > :01:57.very slowly because of the situation in Calais. And then the Government

:01:58. > :02:04.did two things, it announced its eligibility criteria for France, and

:02:05. > :02:09.they pretty well stop a lot of the children from being able to come, to

:02:10. > :02:14.remind you, the criteria said very little -- very young children or

:02:15. > :02:20.women who had been subject to sexual attacks and harassment. And so only

:02:21. > :02:27.children from Syria and Saddam, thereby excluding Ethiopia,

:02:28. > :02:30.Afghanistan and so on. And we thought that was pretty bad. And

:02:31. > :02:36.then more recently the Government said that having taken 200 under

:02:37. > :02:41.that process, they would be stopping the whole thing by the end of March

:02:42. > :02:48.by which time they would be 350. I can give you the reasons... Well, at

:02:49. > :02:53.the time they said two things, I thought that was a breach of what

:02:54. > :03:02.the Parliament decided. What they said, to things summery: one is they

:03:03. > :03:05.wanted to stop the scheme because it encouraged trafficking. To which I

:03:06. > :03:11.would say emphatically not, where there are legal powers to safety,

:03:12. > :03:17.traffickers do not get a way in. But we know from elsewhere that

:03:18. > :03:20.traffickers do best when they have no legal powers to safety. And the

:03:21. > :03:24.second point, the Government said that local authorities were no

:03:25. > :03:27.longer able to provide foster places. Well, I think there is a

:03:28. > :03:32.grave misunderstanding on the part of the Home Office if they actually

:03:33. > :03:36.believe that, because I've known local authorities leaders who say

:03:37. > :03:41.they are happy to take more. And indeed up and down the country. I'm

:03:42. > :03:44.not saying all local authorities can, and they have financial

:03:45. > :03:48.difficulties, but in principle local authorities have said they can do

:03:49. > :03:54.more. So on both counts, I think the Government are wrong. We are going

:03:55. > :04:00.to report does not return to those issues, but Wendy. Good morning,

:04:01. > :04:06.Lord Dubs. We've talked a little bit about 350 figure. I just wanted to

:04:07. > :04:13.ask you, do you acknowledge though that the 350 figure is an additional

:04:14. > :04:19.figure for capacity for local authorities, on top of the about

:04:20. > :04:24.5000 that they welcome every year through existing schemes, and

:04:25. > :04:29.through presentations at our own borders? Yes, it was always intended

:04:30. > :04:34.to be an additional scheme. That was the basis of the amendment to the

:04:35. > :04:39.immigration act. At that time we understood from save the children

:04:40. > :04:42.that up to 95,000 unaccompanied child refugees to Europe. And the

:04:43. > :04:51.idea was that we would take some of them. A figure of 3000 was based on

:04:52. > :05:01.what our share would be, other than estimates of 2000 to 5000. The 3000

:05:02. > :05:05.figure had to be adopted when it went to the Commons. The Government

:05:06. > :05:13.chose not to wave financial privilege, so we had to adopt the

:05:14. > :05:18.3000 figure. But the 350, well... I think 3000 figure was still a figure

:05:19. > :05:22.which people understood as having been in the original amendment. I

:05:23. > :05:28.don't think 350 was anywhere near the commitment that Parliament felt

:05:29. > :05:33.was being made at the time, nor indeed did the Government think of

:05:34. > :05:38.the time. But it was on top of the 5000 that generally XP -- speaking

:05:39. > :05:44.we accept each year. Well, they were not necessarily from Europe, and

:05:45. > :05:49.there was a difference between those we take from Europe, the subject of

:05:50. > :05:53.my amendment, and those we take from elsewhere. And of the ones on the

:05:54. > :05:59.amendment, some will have come illegally. In Calais I spoke to some

:06:00. > :06:03.Afghan boys, and I took their details back to the Home Office,

:06:04. > :06:07.because they all seemed to qualify, and by the following week three of

:06:08. > :06:13.them had got over on the back of a truck. Very dangerous indeed. And on

:06:14. > :06:16.the 9th of February the Home Secretary said that the Home Office

:06:17. > :06:20.meets with you on a regular basis alone with children's charities.

:06:21. > :06:25.Have you, in those meetings, been given any sort of assurances about

:06:26. > :06:32.the numbers that the British would take? Well, I have met Theresa May

:06:33. > :06:36.when she was Home Secretary twice in the course of the passing of the

:06:37. > :06:41.amendment. I've met the Lords and ministers as well, and more recently

:06:42. > :06:45.I've been having fairly regular meetings with Baroness Williams in

:06:46. > :06:55.the Lords. And I'd also had meetings with other ministers, to do with an

:06:56. > :06:59.amendment -- a possible amendment to the children's Bill, and the

:07:00. > :07:05.Government actually improved upon the amendment I had put down there.

:07:06. > :07:09.As regards figures, we have discussed with ministers the figure,

:07:10. > :07:13.and which -- I have asked why there was so little prose -- progress, and

:07:14. > :07:16.clearly there were difficulties between our authorities and the

:07:17. > :07:20.French authorities. And I'm not in a position to know who was most at

:07:21. > :07:25.fault, I think at one time the French were, and at other times the

:07:26. > :07:29.British. But there was a lack of access to refugees in Calais. I

:07:30. > :07:36.think there is better access to refugees in Greece for example.

:07:37. > :07:43.Thank you very much indeed. Pauline. Lord Dubs, are you -- do you think

:07:44. > :07:46.the option for resettling in the UK through immigration act provisions

:07:47. > :07:50.is now closed. And do you think there is any prospect of more

:07:51. > :07:56.children beyond the 350 still to come to the UK under your amendment,

:07:57. > :08:02.bearing in mind that, as Wendy said, we are already taking about 5000

:08:03. > :08:07.additional children anyway? Well, it is my understanding that the

:08:08. > :08:10.Government have said the scheme is closed, it is my belief it should

:08:11. > :08:15.not be closed, and all I can say is there is a lot of pressure outside

:08:16. > :08:19.Parliament that we should continue to press the Government. But what I

:08:20. > :08:22.think should happen is this. I think the Government should keep the

:08:23. > :08:28.scheme open, but accept children under section 67, at the speed which

:08:29. > :08:38.would local authorities can provide places. So that there is no pressure

:08:39. > :08:43.to find places where local authorities feel they can't. Local

:08:44. > :08:46.authorities can come forward, and they need to be asked about this.

:08:47. > :08:51.Then we should accept them, to keep the scheme going. I think that would

:08:52. > :08:56.be in the spirit of the amendment, and also in the interests of

:08:57. > :09:00.children. So how many children do you estimate on top of the 350 would

:09:01. > :09:05.still be eligible to come to the UK under the terms of your amendment?

:09:06. > :09:12.In other words, children that arrived in Europe before the EU-

:09:13. > :09:21.Turkey deal on the 20th of March last year. In a macro I can't give

:09:22. > :09:25.precise estimates, -- we think there are about 2500 unaccompanied

:09:26. > :09:29.children, there is a much larger number of children in Italy, but

:09:30. > :09:34.they are a bit scattered in Italy and not so easy to pin down. And of

:09:35. > :09:37.course there are still those in France who have worked their way

:09:38. > :09:42.from where the friends relocated them back to the Channel coast,

:09:43. > :09:48.which is quite alarming. -- the French relocated them. I can say all

:09:49. > :09:51.2500 will be eligible; there might be other considerations, but sadly

:09:52. > :09:59.2500 is the figure we are working to. We've done an assessment, and

:10:00. > :10:04.it's by no means compensate, but from that assessment we believe that

:10:05. > :10:09.roughly half of the children of the unaccompanied -- the unaccompanied

:10:10. > :10:12.children in Greece, would have family elsewhere in Europe and

:10:13. > :10:15.therefore it would not be in their best interest to necessarily

:10:16. > :10:21.transfer to the UK. But that still leaves well over 1000 unaccompanied

:10:22. > :10:25.children, many of whom don't have access to the accommodation

:10:26. > :10:29.shelters, and therefore I speak -- sleeping rough and in informal camps

:10:30. > :10:36.and in serious vulnerability. Could you tell me what your definition of

:10:37. > :10:43.children is? What other ages? They are up to 18. So although

:10:44. > :10:48.technically they are children, they are actually mainly teenagers who

:10:49. > :10:55.are unaccompanied? And mainly boys? If I could just come back one step.

:10:56. > :11:03.We have the children coming under section 67, but we also had what we

:11:04. > :11:08.call the W three children, that is a Europe wide achievement whereby

:11:09. > :11:10.children can be, if they are family members they can be reunited with

:11:11. > :11:18.their family members. That might mean that the family members are in

:11:19. > :11:22.Germany or wherever, but there are those children as well. Now, as far

:11:23. > :11:28.as their ages are concerned, my understanding is that when the

:11:29. > :11:32.original controversy arose because of apparently older Afghan boys,

:11:33. > :11:43.they were not under section 60 seven. -- 67. I defended it by

:11:44. > :11:47.saying that if one of them is 19 instead of 17, OK, the world does

:11:48. > :11:50.not come to an end. But it did affect public opinion, and one of

:11:51. > :11:57.things I was keen on was that public opinion should be on our side in all

:11:58. > :12:01.this. So it was not good for public opinion to have the accusation that

:12:02. > :12:05.they were all older, but in fact the ones that came under section 607I

:12:06. > :12:13.understand we are all much younger, girls and so on. -- section 67. But

:12:14. > :12:25.the original was not a successful public relations thing. But much

:12:26. > :12:29.younger, do you mean three or four-year-old? As I understand the

:12:30. > :12:34.youngest unaccompanied child was eight years old in the camp. So

:12:35. > :12:41.there are very young children in the camp. But that's unusual. It wasn't

:12:42. > :12:46.the normal? It certainly isn't the average age of unaccompanied

:12:47. > :12:51.children in Europe. It is obviously quite a harrowing journey that they

:12:52. > :12:54.undertake to get a Europe, so a child arriving here at eight years

:12:55. > :13:00.old, we would seriously question how they got here. And it's likely to be

:13:01. > :13:04.through trafficking and people smugglers. It's not the average age

:13:05. > :13:09.profile, but children are children until they are 18. That is what we

:13:10. > :13:12.have in UK law. And there are varying degrees of vulnerability to

:13:13. > :13:20.do with mental health issues, to do with trauma, that we would all

:13:21. > :13:24.recommend them for the section 67 process, if they are highly

:13:25. > :13:26.vulnerable. As a 17-year-old, we would still consider that a good

:13:27. > :13:36.case to be transferred to the UK. Typically we are talking older than

:13:37. > :13:39.eight. We are probably talking about 12, 14, 16 years probably.

:13:40. > :13:45.Thank you. Thank you very much Lord Dubs for

:13:46. > :13:49.coming to the committee. You said in answer to Mr Latham's question, you

:13:50. > :13:53.consider the Dubs arrangement closed.

:13:54. > :13:55.I didn't, the Government considered the scheme closed.

:13:56. > :14:04.Fine. I am looking at what Amber Rudd, the

:14:05. > :14:08.Home Secretary said, that: The Dubs amendment is not closed. Why do you

:14:09. > :14:12.belief that the opposite is the case? That was said at some point in

:14:13. > :14:19.early March, I think. . My understanding is that the

:14:20. > :14:25.scheme what was to be closed at the end of March, by which a further 150

:14:26. > :14:29.would have been taken on top of the 200, 150 mainly from Greece. But the

:14:30. > :14:32.Government said 350, and then it would be closed. That is my

:14:33. > :14:39.understanding. Wendy? I was thinking of a

:14:40. > :14:46.clarification, the issue of age and the point that Lord Dubs made that

:14:47. > :14:51.is helpful to get the indication that 12, 14, 16 is the typical age,

:14:52. > :14:56.rather than younger children. I think so. It is very difficult if

:14:57. > :15:01.they are very young to have made their way halfway across the world.

:15:02. > :15:07.So they have to have been a bit older to manage it.

:15:08. > :15:10.And you mentioned your contacts with the local authority leaders, do you

:15:11. > :15:13.have a sense of the sorts of numbers that the local authorities are

:15:14. > :15:23.prepared to take? Not easily. Many local authorities, I have to say,

:15:24. > :15:28.I've been in touch with parties in Scotland and politicians in Scotland

:15:29. > :15:32.more optimistic about the numbers than the officials, not

:15:33. > :15:34.surprisingly. I've been told some of the London local authorities and

:15:35. > :15:39.second hand, I have heard from others. We are talking about a small

:15:40. > :15:41.number per local authority. But it adds up.

:15:42. > :15:47.Definitely. I have to say that Hammersmith

:15:48. > :15:52.council, where I live, I know them well, they have certainly stepped up

:15:53. > :15:58.to the mark very much and are willing to take more and I've been

:15:59. > :16:04.assured that they will do that. Can I coming from this morning and

:16:05. > :16:10.for remembering where you came from. The criticisms of the politicianses

:16:11. > :16:15.is that they park their life stories and it is very important that your

:16:16. > :16:23.commitment to this is as a person that is in this country because we

:16:24. > :16:25.had a view of the way we treat these refugees and I thank you for the

:16:26. > :16:30.service you have done to our country.

:16:31. > :16:34.On a specific question, the FT suggested that the reason for the

:16:35. > :16:38.Government shift in opinion is that public opinion changed. In the

:16:39. > :16:43.spring there was a great deal of public support and sympathy, in

:16:44. > :16:48.relation to child refugees for what we know in terms of the horrendous

:16:49. > :16:51.imagery. But there is a sense that the public opinion shifted and now

:16:52. > :16:55.Government believes there is a greater political cost in taking the

:16:56. > :17:00.refugees, than not taking the refugees. What is your judgment

:17:01. > :17:04.about whether that is Government's view that the public opinion shifted

:17:05. > :17:10.and do you believe that it shifted? Thank you for what you said. I think

:17:11. > :17:15.public opinion in so far as I can judge it is still on the side of our

:17:16. > :17:19.taking child refugees. Why do I say that? I say it on the basis of a

:17:20. > :17:24.large number of e-mails and letters that I have had. Mostly in favour,

:17:25. > :17:29.few opposed. I say it on the basis of when I go to localas to speak

:17:30. > :17:33.about this, I get the sense there is quite a lot of support. I would have

:17:34. > :17:39.thought given the sensitivity of anything to do with immigration at

:17:40. > :17:43.all, I would have thought if there was hostility it would have hit me

:17:44. > :17:47.hard, people would have told me. That's the feeling I have got. The

:17:48. > :17:52.people I have spoken to say that they feel the same thing. These may

:17:53. > :17:56.be the people that I mix with, maybe not the most objective judges but I

:17:57. > :18:03.am confident that public opinion still believe it is is good to take

:18:04. > :18:08.unaccompanied child refugees. I think there is a substantive issue,

:18:09. > :18:10.we focussed on that so far. There is also the question of the

:18:11. > :18:14.relationship between the executive and Parliament. We reached the

:18:15. > :18:20.decision and inclusions in different ways. This was unusual as it was

:18:21. > :18:24.based on verbal assurances that ministers gave to you but also

:18:25. > :18:28.repeated in the House of Commons, in the House of Lords.

:18:29. > :18:33.What's been subs scently said, really, is that you and others

:18:34. > :18:38.misunderstood the assurance that was given about this particular category

:18:39. > :18:43.of unaccompanied child refugees. How do you feel about that assertion? In

:18:44. > :18:48.your own mind was it absolutely clear the assurances you were given

:18:49. > :18:55.privately and in public in terms of the Government accepting the 3,000

:18:56. > :19:03.figure? Is there room for am big youity? There is room for am big

:19:04. > :19:08.youity of the 3,000 figure. We didn't have a figure. On the other

:19:09. > :19:11.hand in my earlier discussions with government ministers there was no

:19:12. > :19:16.sense that they would stop at that point. Of course, they wanted the

:19:17. > :19:21.scheme not to last indefinitely. But I have to say I was quite surprised

:19:22. > :19:28.as well as being dismayed when the figure became 350. Look, may I

:19:29. > :19:32.repeat, James brokenshire, a decent man, gone to Northern Ireland, of

:19:33. > :19:36.course, he assured me on the phone that the Government would accept the

:19:37. > :19:40.letter and the spirit of the amendment. I heard it repeated on

:19:41. > :19:44.the floor of the Lord's and no doubt in the Commons. I took that to mean

:19:45. > :19:49.that they would not arbitrarily close it down so quickly. I was

:19:50. > :19:53.shocked. Nearer the time I was getting hints that they were trying

:19:54. > :19:59.to find a way of bringing it to an end. But can I expand, I try to

:20:00. > :20:04.understand when I disagree with the Government, and politically, I am

:20:05. > :20:08.bound to be in that position but at least I understand why they are

:20:09. > :20:13.doing what they are doing even if I don't agree, in this case I honestly

:20:14. > :20:18.don't understand why they have done this. We are talking about small

:20:19. > :20:25.numbers. We know if we take children fewer of them are trafficked. At the

:20:26. > :20:30.time of the Jungle, the more that came legally, the less came on the

:20:31. > :20:34.back of a truck, so I don't understand in my heart of hearts why

:20:35. > :20:40.Government decided to close it down this way. They could have easily

:20:41. > :20:45.have kept it going for a bit longer and taken more.

:20:46. > :20:51.When we reported on the Syrian crisis in January 2016 we recognised

:20:52. > :21:00.many of the unaccompanied children in Europe from not from Syria. Of

:21:01. > :21:05.the 750 children that came to UK from the Calais Jungle, ten came

:21:06. > :21:10.from Syria. So is it right that we concentrate on the right of children

:21:11. > :21:15.to come from Syria in the vulnerable settlement scheme? It is right that

:21:16. > :21:20.more of the children and others in the Jungle, I was there twice, were

:21:21. > :21:26.from Afghanistan, Ethiopia and so on. In Greece there are more Syrians

:21:27. > :21:30.it is the nature of the geographical proximity.

:21:31. > :21:35.So I, my feeling is that there is a need to look after an unaccompanied

:21:36. > :21:41.child refugee and the Syrians play a large part in that but they are not

:21:42. > :21:48.the only part it in. Sometimes we can get hung up on age. As a mother

:21:49. > :21:53.of two children, whether whether they were aged 8, 10, 12, 14, I

:21:54. > :21:59.would not want them unaccompanied in Europe. I think that children are

:22:00. > :22:04.vulnerable whatever age. As chair of the disability of the party group

:22:05. > :22:11.I'm interested in the resettlement, the vulnerable disable children, it

:22:12. > :22:18.has been reported that UNHCR has been asked to temporarily limit the

:22:19. > :22:26.request of disability children, so do you have any knowledge of how

:22:27. > :22:31.children with disability are being reprocessed under the scheme? I saw

:22:32. > :22:38.the article, I'm dismayed that we cannot take at least some of the

:22:39. > :22:43.disabled children, as I thought that my approach to it was to take

:22:44. > :22:51.vulnerable children and here are some of the most vulnerable. I don't

:22:52. > :22:59.know if Beth can talk about that? This is a UNHCR programme but our

:23:00. > :23:03.thought is that these are children at risk. And therefore children

:23:04. > :23:08.should not be ruled out simply for having a disability because of a

:23:09. > :23:14.capacity issue. That commitment was cast-iron it would be 3,000 children

:23:15. > :23:20.at risk transferred it is deeply disappointing if that is the case.

:23:21. > :23:25.We were told by people working in Calais and elsewhere, that when they

:23:26. > :23:29.get to safety, say, in this country, that they will be shocked and

:23:30. > :23:35.traumatised by the experiences but that they may not be visible,

:23:36. > :23:40.obvious but what happened inside, they could be in turmoil after their

:23:41. > :23:44.experience. There was one Syria who had seen his father killed in front

:23:45. > :23:52.of him in Damascus. We were aware of that. That requires more, eve

:23:53. > :23:56.finance they are not handicapped as you required but it requires help

:23:57. > :24:01.and support and it is harder for the local authorities. But the local

:24:02. > :24:07.authorities I spoke to understand that. If they are fostered, and in

:24:08. > :24:12.the first time for years they have a loving home and environment, that

:24:13. > :24:18.they will be vulnerable. This shows more when they are in the camps and

:24:19. > :24:24.they have to put a tough ex-steer yore on them.

:24:25. > :24:28.When I visited the camps in Lebanon, some of the children were so

:24:29. > :24:33.traumatised that they could not speak for weeks, eve months, that

:24:34. > :24:36.they required intensive support. That is something that we

:24:37. > :24:40.understand. Do you know how many children with disabilities have come

:24:41. > :24:45.to the UK from Europe. It is something that I asked Amber Rudd on

:24:46. > :24:48.the floor of the house and was guaranteed she would write to me but

:24:49. > :24:53.I have not had a response. We don't know.

:24:54. > :24:56.So it may be that vulnerable children with disabilities are

:24:57. > :25:01.falling through the gaps in terms of the system at this point in time

:25:02. > :25:07.without the figures? Judging by that article in the Independent, yes,

:25:08. > :25:11.they may well be. There was a mention of children

:25:12. > :25:15.getting to Italy but they only felt safe when they came to this country.

:25:16. > :25:19.Now I have great difficulty understanding that query. I didn't

:25:20. > :25:26.think Italy was an unsafe place to be. But I wonder if you can

:25:27. > :25:32.acknowledge weather rescuing 10,000-plus children from Syria,

:25:33. > :25:37.from war-torn Syria, is much more akin to the kinder transport than

:25:38. > :25:41.bringing children from peaceful allies in mainland Europe? Italy is

:25:42. > :25:44.a peaceful country. People from this country wouldn't go on holiday every

:25:45. > :25:50.year if they didn't feel it peaceful? So why is it you feel that

:25:51. > :25:55.the children who are in Italy cannot be safe until they get to England?

:25:56. > :26:04.It's the only safe place in the whole of Europe is to come here? I

:26:05. > :26:09.just don't understand that rational? Can I deal with that... Look, first

:26:10. > :26:16.of all, I never said we should take them all. Indeed, the 3,000 figure

:26:17. > :26:18.in the amendment can be seen in the context of 95,000 unaccompanied

:26:19. > :26:23.children. That was not the question to be

:26:24. > :26:28.fair. I am saying why is not Italy not seen as a safe place, or Greece,

:26:29. > :26:33.when actually thousands and thousands of people from this

:26:34. > :26:37.country go on holiday to these European countries? Why are they

:26:38. > :26:42.only safe when they come to Britain? It's the only safe place in the

:26:43. > :26:52.whole of Europe, is it? I'm sure they are safe in Sweden, Germany.

:26:53. > :26:56.But not Italy? Greece I can speak about. I have been to the camps in

:26:57. > :27:01.Greece in January. I could see the people there and to meet them.

:27:02. > :27:07.I think that the difficulty is that even in Italy, it is alleged by

:27:08. > :27:12.Interpol that 10,000 of the unaccompanied children had just

:27:13. > :27:16.disappeared. There are no, there are few in camps in Italy, they are

:27:17. > :27:21.adrift anywhere in Italy. Italy is a wonderful country, of course but if

:27:22. > :27:24.you are on your own, you are a child and vulnerable to criminality, being

:27:25. > :27:29.taken into prostitution, so on, it is pretty difficult. All I felt was

:27:30. > :27:34.that we should play our part in finding safety. The majority, I dare

:27:35. > :27:38.say, will stay in Italy but we felt we should take some of them, Greece,

:27:39. > :27:41.Italy and France were the obvious places.

:27:42. > :27:45.And Italy, the sheer numbers of children in those countries, it is

:27:46. > :27:51.not about saying take them all here, they are not safe in Italy but the

:27:52. > :27:55.sheer volume of numbers in Greece and Italy, merits us taking a small

:27:56. > :27:59.proportion. 3,000 is a small proportion.

:28:00. > :28:05.In the camps in Greece, the situation is pretty desperate. The

:28:06. > :28:09.temperatures are minus 12. They are on industrial estates. They are

:28:10. > :28:14.warehouses. There is no proper heating. It is a pretty desperate

:28:15. > :28:19.situation. To be an unaccompanied child in that situation is awful.

:28:20. > :28:23.Even though Greece can be wonderful for a holiday.

:28:24. > :28:28.As can Italy. I'm sure that some will find safety in France, some in

:28:29. > :28:31.Italy, some in Greece but in the Greece in particular, the Greek

:28:32. > :28:35.authorities are under pressure. They are finding it difficult to cope

:28:36. > :28:36.with it all and are not getting as much international help as perhaps

:28:37. > :28:47.they should. So we know that roughly 25,000

:28:48. > :28:53.unaccompanied child refugees arrived into Italy last year. Of those, only

:28:54. > :28:58.just over 2000 of them made it into the formal care system in Italy. So

:28:59. > :29:03.that means the vast majority of the children don't have access to care,

:29:04. > :29:10.and are then traffic on through or, you know, taken by the people

:29:11. > :29:15.smugglers to find somewhere that will give them accommodation and

:29:16. > :29:19.safe protection. And they are at huge risk of traffickers and

:29:20. > :29:23.exploitation in that process. But in Italy now you say just under 5000

:29:24. > :29:32.unaccompanied children are in care currently in the UK; Italy is now

:29:33. > :29:36.dealing with 14,000 in their country, and Britain last year had

:29:37. > :29:41.roughly 4% of the unaccompanied children arrive in the UK, largely

:29:42. > :29:46.through some spontaneous means. So it is a tiny fraction of the larger

:29:47. > :29:51.issue, it is certainly not all of the children, but it is really a

:29:52. > :29:59.mixture of access to the care and protection. -- issue of access. Most

:30:00. > :30:04.children don't have access to that. Wendy. In terms of schemes, another

:30:05. > :30:11.focus of this morning is very much around your scheme, I touched on the

:30:12. > :30:15.5000 but regularly come through other schemes. I just wondered what

:30:16. > :30:21.your thoughts are on the Middle East and north Africa scheme, which

:30:22. > :30:27.settles about 3000 children. If that's something you welcome?

:30:28. > :30:31.Because that is separate to Dubs. Of course I welcome that, and 20,000

:30:32. > :30:35.scheme. I think they are all positive and good. I would like the

:30:36. > :30:39.20,000 scheme to be a bit larger, but I think these are all positive

:30:40. > :30:43.ways people can find safety. I think they add up to a decent policy, but

:30:44. > :30:55.on a smaller scale than I would like Nigel. Good morning. How much do you

:30:56. > :31:00.think the photograph of that absolutely tragic four-year-old

:31:01. > :31:04.child was a game changer in public opinion getting behind, wanting to

:31:05. > :31:09.see more child refugees being admitted? I think it was. I've had

:31:10. > :31:13.misquoted so many times by people who said they were shocked. But can

:31:14. > :31:19.I say, in addition to that of course, we saw photographs on our

:31:20. > :31:25.television screens of boats in the Mediterranean of people thinking and

:31:26. > :31:28.so on, and I think what it does was it wakened up a humanitarian

:31:29. > :31:35.instinct in our people, and people felt they had to do something. And

:31:36. > :31:43.then along came a child refuge -- the child refugee issue. I think we

:31:44. > :31:50.just thought we are in a country could do something. Of course that

:31:51. > :31:54.is the photograph we saw, so many thousands of other issues --

:31:55. > :31:59.incidents where we know it is happening on a daily basis. And I

:32:00. > :32:04.think that has been an important factor in public opinion, staying on

:32:05. > :32:07.the side even though public opinion may not generally be sympathetic to

:32:08. > :32:13.increased immigration I think that has helped to inform public opinion

:32:14. > :32:19.and get it staying in support. What was your reaction then when the Home

:32:20. > :32:23.Secretary said, but if we go a long with the Dubs amendment it is

:32:24. > :32:28.actually acting as a pull factor, enticing more people to make those

:32:29. > :32:33.journeys? I think there is very hard -- very little hard evidence they

:32:34. > :32:37.would do that. The Government said the cut off date is 20th of March,

:32:38. > :32:42.and children had to be in Europe before then to qualify, there might

:32:43. > :32:46.be something in it but I don't think there is much in the argument. I

:32:47. > :32:48.think these are more spontaneous movements, for safety and so on,

:32:49. > :32:56.aided and abetted by traffickers quite often. Do you think enough is

:32:57. > :33:00.being done to tackle the problem of traffickers? It isn't, but it is

:33:01. > :33:06.extremely difficult. Everybody's tried. I suppose -- for example I

:33:07. > :33:12.was on one of our subcommittees in the Lords, and we looked at

:33:13. > :33:20.operation Safir, which was clearly intended to catch traffickers. It

:33:21. > :33:24.did nothing of the sort. Our navies didn't go to Libyan territorial

:33:25. > :33:32.waters, so traffickers had a field day. -- operation Sofia. -- our

:33:33. > :33:35.navies could go. So operation Sofia saved a lot of lives, but it didn't

:33:36. > :33:42.catch any traffickers, and I think we can only do that if we get an

:33:43. > :33:47.agreement to do something in Libya itself, because the traffickers are

:33:48. > :33:52.operating in the safety of Libya. Do you think it is more effective for

:33:53. > :33:59.us to spend our aid money on support for these youngsters in the region,

:34:00. > :34:05.or indeed those who had made the tortuous journey to actually support

:34:06. > :34:09.them in the countries where they first round, as opposed to bringing

:34:10. > :34:13.them to their leftist kingdom? I think as members of this committee

:34:14. > :34:18.you will know better than I do that there are technical regions where

:34:19. > :34:23.aid money should not be used in Europe. But it certainly can be used

:34:24. > :34:29.in the region. -- technical reasons. Do you think that is more effective

:34:30. > :34:35.to to spend the money there to make sure they do not make torture and

:34:36. > :34:38.experience? I know we are a generous donor in terms of supporting the

:34:39. > :34:45.region, and I think that is a very good thing. And I hope our money is

:34:46. > :34:50.being spent effectively there, yes. But there are still other issues

:34:51. > :34:57.when they get to Europe. Final question, Lord Dubs. Are we doing

:34:58. > :35:01.enough? I don't think so, we are a risk -- rich country, and as long as

:35:02. > :35:05.public opinion stays with us in terms of doing this, then I think we

:35:06. > :35:09.could be doing a lot more, and as long as local authorities are

:35:10. > :35:14.willing to work -- help, yes, we could do more. Wendy. We have

:35:15. > :35:22.mentioned different schemes this morning, I wanted to ask you, well,

:35:23. > :35:25.both of you actually, if the Government takes no more children

:35:26. > :35:33.through Dubs, what do you think consequences would be? Bearing in

:35:34. > :35:37.mind there are other schemes. Well, there is not much to help in the

:35:38. > :35:41.camps in Greece, and there are not much to help in Italy where I think

:35:42. > :35:45.the children are on the whole spread over Italy and heaven knows where

:35:46. > :35:52.they are, and heaven knows who is providing the safety of everybody.

:35:53. > :35:57.-- of anybody. I fear they will stay in Greece, the situation is pretty

:35:58. > :36:02.bad. There is an EU relocation scheme which works after a fashion,

:36:03. > :36:06.but I heard of one man who was offered relocation to Bulgaria, but

:36:07. > :36:10.the part he said I would be leaving a cab in Greece for a camp in

:36:11. > :36:14.Bulgaria, where there are no job opportunities either. So I think

:36:15. > :36:22.they would stay there, and as many as possible will drift. Some have

:36:23. > :36:26.got to Serbia where the conditions are as bad as anywhere, I

:36:27. > :36:31.understand. I've not been there. And they will try and make it to Serbia,

:36:32. > :36:35.but most of the Borders are now closed, and there are very few ways

:36:36. > :36:43.out. From Italy I think they can move more easily. And I guess they

:36:44. > :36:49.will just move along and try and find some work, and some will get

:36:50. > :36:52.Channel coast. I think just to just to add to what Lord Dubs said, in

:36:53. > :36:56.France we are seeing the consequences already of the closure

:36:57. > :37:04.of this game, and the failure to properly implement... Of 60s --

:37:05. > :37:10.Section 67, of the Dubs scheme. Yesterday we found out that another

:37:11. > :37:16.unaccompanied child had died. He is the fifth child now to have died,

:37:17. > :37:22.trying to reach the UK. He died trying to climb on the back of a

:37:23. > :37:26.lorry on a busy motorway. And this is the consequence of closing down

:37:27. > :37:29.safe and legal routes to protection for these children, they will find

:37:30. > :37:35.other means, they do not feel safe where they are currently. They have

:37:36. > :37:39.no access to former accommodation and care, and therefore they will

:37:40. > :37:43.take crazy risks because their -- they are children, they are

:37:44. > :37:47.teenagers, and they don't always make the most rational decisions. So

:37:48. > :37:50.I think we will see more children falling into the hands of

:37:51. > :37:54.traffickers and people smugglers and more children dying.

:37:55. > :37:59.Clearly nobody wants to hear the tragic stories that you've just

:38:00. > :38:02.shared with us this morning. But do not think it would be better,

:38:03. > :38:07.because clearly those children, those teenagers moving across Europe

:38:08. > :38:12.for a better life, and I don't blame anyone for wanting to improve their

:38:13. > :38:16.outlook and their livelihood. But do not think it would be better to go

:38:17. > :38:22.back to source, and help at source, and by doing that, to try and

:38:23. > :38:27.mitigate some of that risk of trafficking, and the movement as

:38:28. > :38:32.well? Rather than coming up with more and more schemes that are

:38:33. > :38:38.schemes which... It worries me that it does encourage them. Blue -- I am

:38:39. > :38:42.optimistic about the capacity we have as a country to help.

:38:43. > :38:49.And we've done so before, we have 10,000 children from Europe -- had

:38:50. > :38:54.10,000 children in the 1930s. The children are here now in Europe,

:38:55. > :38:58.they are vulnerable, and we know often where these children are. We

:38:59. > :39:02.have a handle on them right now. But if we do not offer them safe and

:39:03. > :39:06.legal routes to protection, if we do not offer them places in the care

:39:07. > :39:10.system, they will simply disappear. That what happened last year when

:39:11. > :39:19.Europe also 10,000 children were missing. It will happen again if

:39:20. > :39:24.these routes are not available. -- row attempt to -- Europol.

:39:25. > :39:27.We know that a lot of our local authorities are taking the brunt of

:39:28. > :39:35.this particularly in the south-east children first woman to the UK. Do

:39:36. > :39:39.feel that were extra capacity is found, there should be a priority to

:39:40. > :39:45.at least help those local authorities that have... Are dealing

:39:46. > :39:50.with these high numbers, to help them to move some of those children

:39:51. > :39:56.around the UK first, to try and alleviate some of the pressures of

:39:57. > :40:00.those authorities that we know are in some cases struggling? I think

:40:01. > :40:06.everybody is aware of the situation in Kent. It's very tough. And I

:40:07. > :40:09.don't think any of the Section 67 children should go to Kent. And it

:40:10. > :40:15.did the Government as a relocation scheme, and I think some of the

:40:16. > :40:19.pressure on Kent should be lessened. -- and indeed. I think that should

:40:20. > :40:24.be part of the process, but it shouldn't be at the expense of the

:40:25. > :40:31.Section 67 children who are still some -- somewhere in Europe, or at

:40:32. > :40:40.least some of them. Beth, that child that you cited, was that child, do

:40:41. > :40:44.we know he was eligible for the Dubs scheme? We believe he could have

:40:45. > :40:49.been under the criteria just published on Friday, the revised

:40:50. > :40:56.criteria for 67. -- Section 60 seven. He was transferred out of the

:40:57. > :41:00.Calle jungle into one of the centres, and then he was from

:41:01. > :41:06.Afghanistan and not under the age of 15 and therefore told that he wasn't

:41:07. > :41:10.eligible at the time for the Dubs Amendment. Now we believe he

:41:11. > :41:16.probably would have been under the revised amendments. He had been in

:41:17. > :41:30.the Calle jungle before then. -- Calle. -- Calais. You've obviously

:41:31. > :41:33.had the conversation with Hammersmith Council, they say they

:41:34. > :41:39.believe they've got capacity for more. Have they made that case to

:41:40. > :41:43.the Home Office themselves? Yes, I have seen letters from the leader of

:41:44. > :41:50.the council to the Home Office about this, and indeed other councils are

:41:51. > :41:56.willing as well. I know Ealing... Service is formal representations

:41:57. > :41:59.that have been made? Well, certainly from Hammersmith, and I understand

:42:00. > :42:04.other councils have gone public. Whether they have all written to the

:42:05. > :42:08.Home Office I don't know... Do you know if that was done before the

:42:09. > :42:15.announcement or after the announcement, the announcement about

:42:16. > :42:20.the 350 children? Well, there is a lot of discussion as to the nature

:42:21. > :42:23.of the Home Office consultation, and it is the subject of a judicial

:42:24. > :42:27.review going on in the High Court at the moment, as to how well the Home

:42:28. > :42:32.Office did the consultation and I think one can be a bit critical that

:42:33. > :42:35.some of it was such a low-key manner that local authorities might have

:42:36. > :42:39.responded better if there had been a more passionate plea from the Home

:42:40. > :42:43.Office. But be that as it may, my understanding is that Hammersmith

:42:44. > :42:47.offered all along, and they redoubled their efforts when the

:42:48. > :42:52.scheme was closed. I think I've got the sequence of events correct.

:42:53. > :42:59.The leader of Hammersmith is one of a number of Government witnesses who

:43:00. > :43:03.gave evidence to the Home Affairs committee on this issue on the 7th

:43:04. > :43:10.of February. After the answer was made? Yes.

:43:11. > :43:14.I'm pretty certain that some of the local authorities, they have said

:43:15. > :43:18.absolutely that they are willing to take numbers, not large numbers...

:43:19. > :43:21.Obviously what we are talking about, you said yourself about the

:43:22. > :43:25.vulnerable nature of the children that would be coming across, the

:43:26. > :43:29.things that they have seen, the trauma that they would have

:43:30. > :43:33.suffered, that they would need specialist care. It is clear we need

:43:34. > :43:36.that capacity before setting a figure, as it were and making sure

:43:37. > :43:42.that happens. Yes.

:43:43. > :43:46.Coming back to the factors that Mr Evans was talking about, I was in

:43:47. > :43:51.Greece last year. You were having similar conversations about the fact

:43:52. > :43:56.when the boats are coming across, a Navy cutter cuts them off, often

:43:57. > :44:02.therein rately upturning the boat, tipping them into the water so they

:44:03. > :44:06.are plucked out, some of the people I met in the hotspots in Lesbos, it

:44:07. > :44:10.occurred to me that the conversations that we were having,

:44:11. > :44:16.that their expectations were raced, so when you say that the Dubs

:44:17. > :44:21.amendment had a specific cut off date, you thought there was no pull

:44:22. > :44:26.factor but the details of that case may not be getting through to people

:44:27. > :44:31.on the other side of Europe who are being fed stories by human

:44:32. > :44:37.traffickers who had unrealistic expectations that they could leave

:44:38. > :44:42.Lesbos to go to Germany, Sweden, Switzerland, Norway, not often the

:44:43. > :44:48.UK but those other countries but then they found they were stuck in

:44:49. > :44:54.Athens, Lesbos or some of the borders with Macedonia as they could

:44:55. > :45:00.not get out of Greece? The 20th March was Government's date. It did

:45:01. > :45:04.not come from me. But it was intended to lessen the eligibility

:45:05. > :45:09.for the scheme so that others would not come along.

:45:10. > :45:15.I honestly don't know. There is a view that Britain is a

:45:16. > :45:20.great country, which it is but there is a view among these people that it

:45:21. > :45:26.is also good. I have spoken to people in the Jungle asking why they

:45:27. > :45:30.don't want to come to England, what about claiming asylum in France, and

:45:31. > :45:34.quite a few of them in the end decided to do that. But I think

:45:35. > :45:38.there was a problem. I asked some if they had been approached in the

:45:39. > :45:44.early days in the Jungle by officials who told them their rights

:45:45. > :45:49.under the Geneva Convention, and so on, they said they had not. If they

:45:50. > :45:53.don't, then the people traffickers say that the only way out is to go

:45:54. > :45:57.to England. So we should give more information to the people in the

:45:58. > :46:03.Jungle, that should be happening in other camps as well.

:46:04. > :46:11.So finally, were you aware of work being done in Calais to avoid

:46:12. > :46:17.trafficking that maybe specifically UK-funded or supported? No.

:46:18. > :46:23.We know that 90 million pounds was spent in the last two years on

:46:24. > :46:30.Calais but that was spent on the wall and on defence and there was

:46:31. > :46:36.only one official ever appointed to work in France on Dublin and Dubs

:46:37. > :46:41.cases. So the imbalance of the spending is pretty clear, I think.

:46:42. > :46:46.Final question, Lisa? Thank you, you recently travelled to Greece, what

:46:47. > :46:51.did you find there and was assistance provided to children to

:46:52. > :46:57.apply for Dubs or Dublin transfers to the UK, evidence of aid money and

:46:58. > :47:03.did you find any child specialists working there. A long question, I

:47:04. > :47:07.know! Oh! Certainly at the British embassy, there is one woman whose

:47:08. > :47:15.job is specifically to work on this but it is only one woman. A great

:47:16. > :47:22.person but there should be more. The other questions... ? What did

:47:23. > :47:27.you find in Greece? And did you see evidence of your aid money providing

:47:28. > :47:33.sport? And what assistance provided for children applying for Dubs?

:47:34. > :47:39.There was UK aid money but it was limited. There was accommodation

:47:40. > :47:43.provided for #50 550 of the children but we know that there are several

:47:44. > :47:47.thousand and there. That is time limited to a year. So there is a

:47:48. > :47:51.problem there. What approaches were being made? Well, the Greek

:47:52. > :47:55.authorities are talking to the children but at the point I was

:47:56. > :48:00.there, there were not any from Greece under the scheme. So when the

:48:01. > :48:05.government say that they will bring 150 in the month of March I'm not

:48:06. > :48:08.sure how it is working. We are not aware of any children being

:48:09. > :48:16.transferred from Greece. Not any at all? No.

:48:17. > :48:21.Final word? I just to say thank you. I really appreciate the chance to be

:48:22. > :48:25.here. I appreciate the committees showing interest. And I'm delighted

:48:26. > :48:37.to tell you. Thank you very much. Thank you. Good morning and welcome.

:48:38. > :48:45.We have got 40-45 minutes and sixas that we are seeking to cover. You

:48:46. > :48:50.heard the first evidence session. My colleague, Nigel Evans, made an

:48:51. > :48:55.important point around the strength of the UK's investment in the

:48:56. > :49:01.region, in the UK, second only to the US in support of refugees and

:49:02. > :49:05.those in Syria in the region. Clearly we have been talking about

:49:06. > :49:10.legal routes for refugees to come to the UK.

:49:11. > :49:14.What, in terms of the refugee crisis in Syria keeps you up at night? What

:49:15. > :49:18.do you think are the gaps in the system that should be of greatest

:49:19. > :49:21.concern to us as the international development committee. Please

:49:22. > :49:29.introduce yourselves when you answer.

:49:30. > :49:33.I'm Melanie Teff with UNICEF UK, senior humanitarian and migration

:49:34. > :49:37.advocacy and policy advisor. With regards to the funding it is true

:49:38. > :49:42.that the UK funding both in regions of origin and also some of the

:49:43. > :49:45.funding in Europe for refugee children has been extremely

:49:46. > :49:49.important. It has, it is making a difference in

:49:50. > :49:53.terms of improving physical conditions. I'm focussing on Europe

:49:54. > :49:59.at this point. It is providing more shelter, places

:50:00. > :50:03.for uncompanied children it is ensuring that children have access

:50:04. > :50:06.to education and better protection mechanisms for children are being

:50:07. > :50:11.developed. But there are still big gaps. We have been talking a bit

:50:12. > :50:17.about Greece and Italy this morning. It's clear that the child protection

:50:18. > :50:20.systems in these countries are really overwhelmed by the numbers

:50:21. > :50:25.that arrived. What I look at is on the one hand

:50:26. > :50:29.the physical conditions in accommodation and services, where

:50:30. > :50:35.there have been some improvements but there are still big problems and

:50:36. > :50:39.secondly about processing children's cases and finding solutions for

:50:40. > :50:46.children. That is the second side of the equation. So on the first side,

:50:47. > :50:53.I give the example of Greece, where there have been, there has been some

:50:54. > :51:00.progress and looking a at the situation of uncompanied children,

:51:01. > :51:04.UNICEF estimates about 20100 children unaccompanied from Greece

:51:05. > :51:12.as at mid-February, and there is now a situation where more than half of

:51:13. > :51:14.them have an official place in an official uncompanied children's

:51:15. > :51:18.shelter but that means that there are still over 1,000 children

:51:19. > :51:24.without a place in a shelter. Those children who are not in shelter,

:51:25. > :51:30.what happens is that they may be waiting in effectively a detention

:51:31. > :51:34.centre or custody in a police station, so that means detention or

:51:35. > :51:40.in the reception and the identification centre, many of which

:51:41. > :51:46.are closed centres. As well as that, a recent mapping by UNICEF indicated

:51:47. > :51:50.that about 600 children were in squats around Athens with an average

:51:51. > :52:02.time of staying there of eight months. Those were children waiting

:52:03. > :52:06.for a place in an uncompanied children's centre -- unaccompanyied

:52:07. > :52:13.children's centre. These are children many of them with

:52:14. > :52:19.needs, medical needs, support needs and there are other gaps in services

:52:20. > :52:24.to medical care. There is no specialised medical personnel in the

:52:25. > :52:28.children's shelters, no nurses and no disabled access. I heard your

:52:29. > :52:31.concerns about the issues for the disabled children that is certainly

:52:32. > :52:35.a big issue. In Italy, as we heard, there are

:52:36. > :52:44.many children out of the official system. One of the reasons for this

:52:45. > :52:47.is my second point. You are answering almost every single

:52:48. > :52:51.question in the first answer. It might mean we are finished quite

:52:52. > :52:56.soon. The second point was about the

:52:57. > :53:01.processing of the cases. That is why many children are out of the system.

:53:02. > :53:07.They drop out of the system because they find out, they realise that it

:53:08. > :53:13.just takes too long for their case to be dealt with, their asylum case

:53:14. > :53:18.and to have their asylum case dealt with is the gateway to having your

:53:19. > :53:23.family reunification case dealt with. So as a result with delays in

:53:24. > :53:28.the system, the children give up. The system for family reunion can

:53:29. > :53:33.take a year. That's hard enough for an adult. It is almost impossible

:53:34. > :53:37.for a child to wait for a year, so it is unsurprising that many of them

:53:38. > :53:42.drop out of the system. Melanie, thank you. We will explore

:53:43. > :53:52.some of those in specifics. Michael? Primal Bochenek from Human

:53:53. > :53:56.rights Watch. My colleagues and I have seen a lack of access to

:53:57. > :54:00.information, a lack of real information about how to apply for

:54:01. > :54:05.asylum. A lack of guardians and all of these things are again in France,

:54:06. > :54:09.reasons why children who are relocated from Calais, as well as

:54:10. > :54:14.those more recently arrived, have chosen to leave the system and seek

:54:15. > :54:20.their own means of moving onwards. This is a very big factor, and of

:54:21. > :54:24.course not just in Italy but in France and snernl Greece where the

:54:25. > :54:27.system is fragile at best. Another issue with respect to Greece that we

:54:28. > :54:36.have concerns about that has not been mentioned is the effect of

:54:37. > :54:40.recent legislation, recent prosowsed legislation that changes the asylum

:54:41. > :54:44.law and would have the effect of having many more people remaining

:54:45. > :54:52.longer on the islands or a wherever they are, children as well as the

:54:53. > :54:57.adults. It means lengthy waiting procedures, and the fracking of

:54:58. > :55:03.asylum procedures limiting the right to appeal. In all a flawed EU Turkey

:55:04. > :55:07.agreement that could result in many people being sent back to Turkey in

:55:08. > :55:13.situations where they are not receiving the sort of support, or

:55:14. > :55:19.indeed the kinds of access for example to registration to work to

:55:20. > :55:25.education, that will allow them to have a stable, secure place in

:55:26. > :55:30.Turkey. On that last point, I think, and this gets to the question about

:55:31. > :55:35.the region and assistance within the region, which has been in broad

:55:36. > :55:39.terms generous from the UK as well as from other European countries as

:55:40. > :55:44.well, that the big flaw and what keeps me up at night about the very,

:55:45. > :55:51.very large numbers in the region is precisely the lack of stability, the

:55:52. > :55:55.lack of access to status. So restrictive residency requirements

:55:56. > :56:00.in Lebanon or Jordan or Turkey, restrictions on access to work

:56:01. > :56:02.authorisation for adults that push children into child labour,

:56:03. > :56:06.sometimes very dangerous forms of child labour. Consequences for

:56:07. > :56:10.education and formal restrictions on access to education in at least

:56:11. > :56:16.Lebanon, if not all three countries. These are the kinds of things that

:56:17. > :56:21.ideally, the UK, as well as other governments would be pushing for

:56:22. > :56:25.change on. Loosening the registration requirements, ensuring

:56:26. > :56:29.that money, not only money is spent effectively on education but also

:56:30. > :56:35.that there is effective access to education. We know most refugees

:56:36. > :56:42.stay close to their homes, that most tend to go back at some point, the

:56:43. > :56:48.numbers in Lebanon, Turkey, Jordan are huge and they far outway the

:56:49. > :56:52.limited numbers that have come illegally to the United Kingdom. So

:56:53. > :56:56.making sure that they have not just a safe but a dig anified and a

:56:57. > :57:01.secure life while they are there is crucial. I this it is one that

:57:02. > :57:06.certainly the UK could encourage. Thank you for that.

:57:07. > :57:20.We visited a leather and Jordan in December as part of the education

:57:21. > :57:25.enquiry. And as you scale of the numbers in Lebanon and Jordan is

:57:26. > :57:34.astounding. Your point is good that more needs to be done. Particular

:57:35. > :57:43.with the access to jobs. Add conditions for children in France

:57:44. > :57:51.improved any, when it was taking ten or 12 months in a tub under the

:57:52. > :57:55.Dublin regulation. First move quickly to make temporary

:57:56. > :58:04.accommodation centres. This effort was laudable. They placed nearly

:58:05. > :58:09.2000 children in those centres. When I visited and my colleagues, we saw

:58:10. > :58:13.varied conditions. These were intended to be temporary so one

:58:14. > :58:18.expects that some are better than others, better staffed, professional

:58:19. > :58:22.stabbing in some and frankly whatever they could get in others.

:58:23. > :58:28.Basic services, things I would consider basic, within this

:58:29. > :58:34.population, it would include having an interpreter is available in some

:58:35. > :58:45.way. Almost universal, it was not the case. Aid workers were duly

:58:46. > :58:51.getting with crude gestures. That limited getting information to the

:58:52. > :58:55.children about their prospects in France. They were not getting the

:58:56. > :59:03.information they needed about their possibilities there. Both for these

:59:04. > :59:10.very practical reasons but also because, whether a policy or not,

:59:11. > :59:16.certainly a practice, of choosing to hold any French process until the UK

:59:17. > :59:21.process was ended. With the apparent idea that as many children would go

:59:22. > :59:25.to the UK as possible, and then they would start the process of assigning

:59:26. > :59:32.guardians, putting people into a quite complicated system. Certainly

:59:33. > :59:42.quite lengthy and discouraging for any child as you can imagine. From

:59:43. > :59:45.what you have described it could be hopeless for children. How many

:59:46. > :59:51.children are still in reception centres in France, what is your

:59:52. > :59:55.assessment of their well-being? Those who are they have their basic

:59:56. > :00:05.needs provided, shelter, food, they are in a safe place. There are many

:00:06. > :00:12.fewer, than the 1900 originally transferred. Many have left. We have

:00:13. > :00:18.not got good numbers from the French authorities but anecdotally

:00:19. > :00:25.different centre directors say they have four or five leaving every

:00:26. > :00:33.couple of days. Anecdotally we also know many children have gone back to

:00:34. > :00:37.Calais Dunkirk, but they did not know what was going on and did not

:00:38. > :00:41.get information. When not giving any reasons as far as they were

:00:42. > :00:48.concerned to stay so they have taken matters into their own hands. What I

:00:49. > :00:57.been leaving to? And the disappearing -- are the

:00:58. > :01:06.disappearing? We hear about this in Europe, they have hopped the walls,

:01:07. > :01:13.not return to where they were staying. And have somehow made their

:01:14. > :01:19.way up to the areas I mentioned. Where they are often hiding in the

:01:20. > :01:24.woods. I hear from colleagues and from others who work with children

:01:25. > :01:27.that many are sleeping during the day and hiding in the forest at

:01:28. > :01:34.night to avoid detection. If they are found in Paris are Calais, there

:01:35. > :01:49.are bands and giving aid to children and adults found in this situation

:01:50. > :01:55.-- and is -- bans. The police have been confiscating things found on

:01:56. > :02:04.children and adults in this situation. And many children from

:02:05. > :02:07.what you described returning to Calais, given what you are

:02:08. > :02:15.describing, why are they returning there? What are their hopes? What

:02:16. > :02:18.people have told me, children have told me, either in those

:02:19. > :02:22.circumstances are considering it, they see no future in France. Their

:02:23. > :02:29.experience of the French state is that the police beat them and nobody

:02:30. > :02:37.gives them information. They have given up on any official prospects

:02:38. > :02:41.of recognising their staters. They are seeking informal means of making

:02:42. > :02:45.it to the UK. I have heard the discussion about the potential pull

:02:46. > :02:50.factor, the biggest being it is the UK, it is English, there is a

:02:51. > :02:57.perception among many that this is the place to be. Many people have

:02:58. > :03:02.closed or some family members are some community in the UK and not in

:03:03. > :03:10.France. Given the lack of support in France particularly by the police,

:03:11. > :03:18.to me it is not a pricing they are choosing to do this no matter how

:03:19. > :03:25.dangerous or unwise. There must be a better solution if this is their

:03:26. > :03:32.choice. Of the children you have met who have come into the UK from

:03:33. > :03:37.France, how do you say they are settling in and being supported in

:03:38. > :03:42.this country? Local authorities have a duty to refugee children under the

:03:43. > :03:53.Children Act as they do for any child in their area for a

:03:54. > :03:57.conurbation. -- accommodation. In many areas, we see children are

:03:58. > :04:00.slipping through the net in France in terms of the child protection

:04:01. > :04:07.services they are receiving. Once they have reached the UK, we have

:04:08. > :04:12.seen, depending on where the child is, as to the level of services they

:04:13. > :04:18.are receiving. Local authorities are trying to provide services but there

:04:19. > :04:23.are some in key areas, three areas we have noted having access to

:04:24. > :04:27.quality legal advice, once the children going through their asylum

:04:28. > :04:33.applications while they are here. A second area has been the issue of

:04:34. > :04:41.mental health care, getting access to good and prompt mental health

:04:42. > :04:47.support when needed. The third is hard access to education in some

:04:48. > :04:51.areas. Under 16-year-olds have found a school place immediately, but over

:04:52. > :04:58.16 there has been a problem in some areas. How does this compare with

:04:59. > :05:05.other EU countries? Not France, they have failed, what about Sweden,

:05:06. > :05:11.Germany, Denmark, other countries who have taken refugees? You have

:05:12. > :05:16.some of the numbers on Sweden and Germany. We are also looking at in

:05:17. > :05:21.terms of the numbers countries are receiving. Whilst in the UK does

:05:22. > :05:30.take quite a number every year, it is not the numbers that Sweden has.

:05:31. > :05:37.We are talking about in Germany and Sweden tens of thousands per year.

:05:38. > :05:43.Of unaccompanied children. The system in Sweden, which received

:05:44. > :05:51.quite a number, 80 or 90,000. In 2015 was under considerable strain.

:05:52. > :05:55.Last year was a time when they were dealing with a lot of these

:05:56. > :06:00.arrivals. We are not seeing anything like the, for the most part, the

:06:01. > :06:09.system in Sweden is very good. But the standard in Europe and elsewhere

:06:10. > :06:13.is the problem. In the aftermath of the large arrival numbers, they have

:06:14. > :06:17.been some difficulties in terms of finding people for those and making

:06:18. > :06:24.sure that guardians once assigned to too many children. -- were not

:06:25. > :06:30.aside. Policies for introducing children to the culture, how you do

:06:31. > :06:37.things like manage money, go shopping. Unaccompanied children who

:06:38. > :06:41.come to Sweden want fruit because they are used to fruit and it is

:06:42. > :06:47.expensive in Sweden, so they have to learn to manage the money to get

:06:48. > :07:00.through. That is an incredible problem! A real plan for transition

:07:01. > :07:06.to independence, and to the 15 and 16-year-olds, a transition through

:07:07. > :07:18.early adulthood so that people have not only the legal staters they need

:07:19. > :07:28.-- legal status. But also a sense of the career track. You talk about

:07:29. > :07:34.guardians. How many children, typically, would a guardian be

:07:35. > :07:40.helping? These are independent officials, they wouldn't be living

:07:41. > :07:42.with them. Depending on the edge, their situation, some would live in

:07:43. > :07:50.foster families but many, particularly older children in

:07:51. > :07:56.dormitory type settings will stop in some cases. The type of facility

:07:57. > :08:04.would depend. They would move through different facilities,

:08:05. > :08:08.sharing several children with someone coming in on a daily or

:08:09. > :08:11.weekly basis depending on how long they have been there. The Guardian

:08:12. > :08:18.is someone, not a Government official. Outside of the official

:08:19. > :08:22.process that are given support when they need it. The better approach

:08:23. > :08:28.was to have no more than four or five. As a measured at the time of

:08:29. > :08:33.the large influx, we learned that there was some guardians with too

:08:34. > :08:46.many, somewhere in the region of ten or more. What about Germany? Germany

:08:47. > :08:53.I know less about. They have a similar process in general. And have

:08:54. > :08:56.mobilised quite a lot of resources in terms of finding places for

:08:57. > :08:59.children around the company and sharing the burden in a way that

:09:00. > :09:07.ensures that no one municipality local entity is taking on too many.

:09:08. > :09:13.There were challenges that only in the sense that because many children

:09:14. > :09:16.had relatives, friends and community members in other areas, there was

:09:17. > :09:28.sometimes a question about why they have to be sent to Munich if their

:09:29. > :09:34.support was elsewhere. But in general, quite generous. Not over

:09:35. > :09:44.strained in the last couple of years. Quite a good one. The

:09:45. > :09:49.transfer scheme year, hopefully once extended to the rest of the UK, that

:09:50. > :09:56.will help relieve the burden of some of the authorities here. And assist

:09:57. > :10:10.with some of the problems. It has just been a good? It has just been

:10:11. > :10:18.England? Yes. I am aware of the long-standing generosity of the

:10:19. > :10:24.Swedes. Policy and law changes, has that had an impact in terms of what

:10:25. > :10:32.you have described in unaccompanied children. It has not had an effect

:10:33. > :10:38.in their staters. At a time when many of the children that Mac

:10:39. > :10:48.they had heard comments by politicians saying they were going

:10:49. > :10:54.to restrict numbers. As I understand it from the Government, the intent

:10:55. > :11:00.was never to affect unaccompanied children. Many children took it this

:11:01. > :11:08.way. Unless there is secure status by children that is processed

:11:09. > :11:13.reasonably quickly, we will not see... Children will have fears,

:11:14. > :11:17.worried about their future that they will not be able to benefit from

:11:18. > :11:28.services. That goes for the state is even in the UK that they are not

:11:29. > :11:39.receiving long-term status. That is unfortunate. In relation to Greece

:11:40. > :11:46.and Italy, very interested to know how money is being used in terms of

:11:47. > :11:50.supporting unaccompanied children. And not sure if you have the

:11:51. > :11:55.experience of seeing the money used effectively. And moving children to

:11:56. > :12:09.more appropriate accommodation? I can speak to how the DIFID money

:12:10. > :12:16.is spent in Greece and rowera, former Yugoslav, Macedonia and

:12:17. > :12:21.Serbia, there were DIFID funds given to UNICEF and this have been used.

:12:22. > :12:30.Four mainars, one is child protection. Child protection

:12:31. > :12:36.centres, known as Blue Dub centres along the Balkan route where

:12:37. > :12:39.families and children can go to get legal assistance, referred for

:12:40. > :12:44.mental health assistance and child friendly spaces where children can

:12:45. > :12:49.play with qualified supervisors. Sos that has been a very important

:12:50. > :12:54.area of work. And giving technical advice to the governments to improve

:12:55. > :13:03.the reception of those children in thesters. -- in the centres and how

:13:04. > :13:09.the workers and the reception centre staff are dealing with the influx.

:13:10. > :13:14.Another area is in healthcare and knew traditional status for

:13:15. > :13:18.children, especially young children. A third area is education, providing

:13:19. > :13:22.some informal education for children out of school and working with the

:13:23. > :13:26.local authorities to enable an integration of children into the

:13:27. > :13:33.formal education system. There has been progress on that in Greece.

:13:34. > :13:37.Fourthly, water and hygiene facilities in reception centres and

:13:38. > :13:43.basic supplies like warm clothing. We saw the awful photos from Serbia

:13:44. > :13:47.of people in minus 15 degree conditions, so giving out warm

:13:48. > :13:52.clothing in those situations. In terms of the shelters, I was saying

:13:53. > :13:57.that in Greece we are now at the situation where there are about

:13:58. > :14:01.1,000 unaccompanied children who are waiting for a shelter place. That is

:14:02. > :14:06.before than before but obviously still very concerning. So you still

:14:07. > :14:11.have got some children who are in protective custody, as was

:14:12. > :14:14.mentioned, in the police stations and some children stuck in the

:14:15. > :14:19.reception and identification centres, many of which are closed

:14:20. > :14:25.centres. I was in Greece a coup of months ago. While I was there on the

:14:26. > :14:29.islands there was a riot in one of the centres when the children were

:14:30. > :14:35.present in that centre and in another centre there was a fire and

:14:36. > :14:38.a child died, so it shows the problems with the conditions,

:14:39. > :14:42.especially on the islands in Greece where the centres are overcrowded.

:14:43. > :14:46.Do you have knowledge as to whether or not DIFID are working with the

:14:47. > :14:50.Foreign Office to supply pressure to the Greek government in terms of

:14:51. > :14:56.moving children as soon as possible from inappropriate accommodation? Is

:14:57. > :15:01.there any diplomatic representation being made? I don't know anything of

:15:02. > :15:05.conversations happening, I know that the agencies such as UNICEF

:15:06. > :15:11.co-ordinate regularly with the Greek government and advocate for children

:15:12. > :15:17.to be in appropriate shelters and not in detention. I think it is

:15:18. > :15:23.really important that the funding conditions for the alternative

:15:24. > :15:28.detention shelters. If there is a shortage of shelters, there is a

:15:29. > :15:34.risk of some children being kept in detention centres.

:15:35. > :15:39.Is there an argument, you listed theas that DIFID is contributing but

:15:40. > :15:49.we don't know outcomes, is there an argument for saying that maybe DIFID

:15:50. > :15:51.can consider how it can add value in situations like alternative

:15:52. > :15:57.accommodation? I think it is important that the people on the

:15:58. > :16:00.ground are talking regularly with difficult anied, discuss writing the

:16:01. > :16:04.funding is going. We don't have criticism with the way that DIFID is

:16:05. > :16:10.directing the funding. You were not sure about Italy, do

:16:11. > :16:15.either of you have knowledge what is happening in Italy, specifically

:16:16. > :16:23.with relation to DIFID support? I don't have information about DIFID

:16:24. > :16:28.funding with Italy, I'm afraid. I have knowledge of the situation in

:16:29. > :16:32.Italy where the authorities have a longer standing organisation for

:16:33. > :16:37.refugee children, however they've been overwhelmed and 91% of the

:16:38. > :16:43.children arriving in Italy have been unaccompanied. So that is a huge act

:16:44. > :16:47.to deal with. The problem is the numbers of children dropping from

:16:48. > :16:50.the system, we are talking up to 7,000 children dropped out of the

:16:51. > :16:54.system, they are sleeping in train stations often. Now that there are

:16:55. > :16:59.more deportations from Switzerland and France many are in transit camps

:17:00. > :17:08.near the border. We also have a lot of reports to us of children being

:17:09. > :17:12.involved in child Prost tuition and labour exploitation in Italy

:17:13. > :17:17.sometimes to fund the journeys. One of the reasons we think it is really

:17:18. > :17:23.important to have safe and legal routes to avoid children being

:17:24. > :17:26.exploited in that way. In terms of the unaccompanied Syrian

:17:27. > :17:33.children, do you know the figures for that in Greece? In Greece, in

:17:34. > :17:41.2016 it was 26% of unaccompanied children were Syrian. So 26% of

:17:42. > :17:47.about 2,000. In Italy, it's small numbers of Syrians. The European

:17:48. > :17:56.Commission statistics were 218 unaccompanied Syrian children. In

:17:57. > :17:59.Italy last year in 2016, there were 3806 unaccompanied Eritrean

:18:00. > :18:00.children, and of course many of them are likely to be eligible for

:18:01. > :18:09.asylum. Thank you very much. I was speaking

:18:10. > :18:14.to an NGO in Slovenia last year, talking about the situation in their

:18:15. > :18:19.country where they had 200,000 people going through effectively

:18:20. > :18:23.fields to get through to other parts of Europe and in a population of 2

:18:24. > :18:29.million, that is a substantial chunk. You mentioned the conditions

:18:30. > :18:33.in Serbia, I wonder if you can talk about the Balkan route about the

:18:34. > :18:37.conditions there? Of course the situation we are seeing with the

:18:38. > :18:41.border closures in March of last year, many people are trapped in

:18:42. > :18:44.countries that they were intending to pass through. So it is a

:18:45. > :18:48.different situation. There has been a lot of tensions growing because of

:18:49. > :18:58.the fact that people have become stranded. In Serbia, as at

:18:59. > :19:05.mid-February, UNICEF estimates there were about 8,000 refugees and

:19:06. > :19:11.migrants, including 3103 children. There are a number of official

:19:12. > :19:14.reception sites, 16, official reception sites in Serbia but

:19:15. > :19:20.according to the European Commission, as many as 1200 people

:19:21. > :19:25.are staying in unofficial sites in very poor conditions.

:19:26. > :19:29.I think it comes back to the problem of the lack of trust in the system

:19:30. > :19:35.that many people have. That because the processes take so long, people

:19:36. > :19:40.dropping out of the official system which results in them staying in

:19:41. > :19:45.very dangerous conditions. It reached minus 15 Celsius a month or

:19:46. > :19:50.two ago, that was a great concern. The DIFID funds were spent on

:19:51. > :19:54.dealing with shelter and warm clothing and improving the

:19:55. > :19:57.conditions on the official sites and providing essential services. The

:19:58. > :20:00.situation would have been worse without the DIFID funding,

:20:01. > :20:04.certainly. Are you finding a sense of

:20:05. > :20:10.improvement? There may be improvement in some of the

:20:11. > :20:14.conditions, the trouble is, that as time goes on, people become

:20:15. > :20:20.frustrated and tensions rice and people give up on the system and

:20:21. > :20:28.start moving on their own and taking risks, risking their lives with

:20:29. > :20:34.smugglers and traffickers. With regard to Serbia, we are seeing

:20:35. > :20:40.the violent pushbacks from Hungary. So a lot of people are stranded with

:20:41. > :20:47.no place to go, not in official shelters but sleeping rough where

:20:48. > :20:52.they can find space. We were hearing, not from Human Rights Watch

:20:53. > :20:59.research, something like 30 cases a day of pushbacks from the Hungarian

:21:00. > :21:06.border, including children as young as 13 or 12. Also because of the

:21:07. > :21:12.cold in January in particular, people dying because of the cold. So

:21:13. > :21:18.quite a difficult situation made worse by Hungary's policies of a

:21:19. > :21:24.very, very violent reaction to asylum seekers over the border. And

:21:25. > :21:30.the new Hungarian legislation that allows the auto mattic detention of

:21:31. > :21:34.asylum seekers within Hungary, so if they made it into Hungarian

:21:35. > :21:40.territory, and these are asylum seekers aged 14 and above, as well

:21:41. > :21:45.as adults who are automatically now allowed to be detained in so-called

:21:46. > :21:51.transit zones, which are places of detention, of course, as well as

:21:52. > :21:56.allowing some returns from within Hungary to the border. The New York

:21:57. > :22:01.Times as had been editorial that describes the situation and

:22:02. > :22:05.describes Hungary's flagrant refusal to abide by any international

:22:06. > :22:10.principles that apply here, including those with the respect to

:22:11. > :22:14.protection of children, and says that Hungary is playing the European

:22:15. > :22:18.Union. I think that is accurate. Obviously when they closed the

:22:19. > :22:22.border with Greece and Macedonia, the camps that a colleague of mine

:22:23. > :22:27.visited, he was shocked by what he saw. Do you know of an up-to-date

:22:28. > :22:32.situation on what is happening in the camps in that area? I don't.

:22:33. > :22:37.Have I'm aware in the former Yugoslav, the Republic of Macedonia,

:22:38. > :22:41.there were two transit centres at the end of 2016, about 300 refugees

:22:42. > :22:45.and migrants there, about half of them are children, and again they

:22:46. > :22:52.are stuck. But I don't have details about the conditions, I'm afraid.

:22:53. > :22:57.Thank you. What other EU countries help child

:22:58. > :23:03.refugees? Are they sending money and pornel out there to help where there

:23:04. > :23:09.is urgent need and how do you see the UK's contribution compared with

:23:10. > :23:13.that of its neighbours? Well, one point, I can't speak as to the

:23:14. > :23:17.technical assistance that the other countries are giving to some of the

:23:18. > :23:23.places we've talked about but stlernl is more of an acceptance of

:23:24. > :23:26.the idea that other countries will take on unaccompanied children in

:23:27. > :23:32.larger numbers, so an unfortunate situation in the UK where the UK is

:23:33. > :23:37.taking with respect to the humanitarian provision in section 57

:23:38. > :23:42.a very, very modest number as co-compared with the tens of

:23:43. > :23:47.thousands that are seeing in countries like Sweden and Germany.

:23:48. > :23:53.Even France, which we criticised with the implementation of the

:23:54. > :24:00.protection measures, the failure of the shelters, the failure to provide

:24:01. > :24:07.guardians on a timely basis, the lack of information about asylum in

:24:08. > :24:10.and other procedures for staying in the country, illegally, even France

:24:11. > :24:15.has taken on a large number of children whereas the UK has a

:24:16. > :24:22.relatively modest number in comparison.

:24:23. > :24:27.What about personnel and money going from... I mean there are many more

:24:28. > :24:36.EU countries other than Sweden and France. Are they sending money? What

:24:37. > :24:40.is happening with their help? Some are sending secondments to the EU

:24:41. > :24:46.asylum support office. Where is that based? I don't know

:24:47. > :24:49.where it is based. It has staffing in Greece, Italy, all of the

:24:50. > :24:52.countries which are dealing with large numbers of people. I'm not

:24:53. > :24:58.sure about the basis, probably Brussels, I would think.

:24:59. > :25:02.In terms of funding the UK is certainly one of the countries

:25:03. > :25:08.providing a high level of funding. OK. So what would you say that the

:25:09. > :25:12.EU are doing? The EU, not European countries, the EU and is it doing

:25:13. > :25:21.enough to address the refugee situation? In terms of humanitarian

:25:22. > :25:24.funding, the Education Minister U echoed the European Commission's

:25:25. > :25:30.humanitarian funds, that has been a key source of funds for the refugee

:25:31. > :25:36.migrant crisis in Europe, in terms of also the EU's scheme, the

:25:37. > :25:39.relocation scheme which the UK has chosen not to participate in, that

:25:40. > :25:45.scheme has been important, although it has not lived up to the full

:25:46. > :25:50.expectations so far. As at the beginning of February, there were

:25:51. > :25:57.nearly 12,000 people relocated from Greece and Italy to other EU Member

:25:58. > :26:00.States, of that, though, of the numbers only 249 of them were

:26:01. > :26:05.unaccompanied children. So there has been a short fall in the number of

:26:06. > :26:12.places for unaccompanied children. 248 from Greece, one from Italy. And

:26:13. > :26:18.then there was also the European resettlement scheme. But that is not

:26:19. > :26:27.dealing with inside Europe. How much was the Echo Funding?

:26:28. > :26:35.Initially in 2016 they announced 83 million Euros worth for Greece. 22

:26:36. > :26:40.million for the Western Balkans Nothing for France? I'm not aware of

:26:41. > :26:43.the amounts for France and Italy. I'm afraid that I don't have those

:26:44. > :26:50.figures. I don't think so. Thank you.

:26:51. > :26:55.Paul? I went to Lesbos with the Council of Europe migration

:26:56. > :27:00.committee last year, we were had Greek representatives when we looked

:27:01. > :27:04.at a hot spot and thesas, people from the EU commission, there seemed

:27:05. > :27:08.a real disjoint from the discussion that they were having about funding

:27:09. > :27:13.getting through. I got the sense that there was a humanitarian fund,

:27:14. > :27:19.as you said, and the fund that was tapping migration but that the two

:27:20. > :27:23.did not connect, when actually, the subject was inacceptable. I wonder

:27:24. > :27:28.if there is a view on how the funding is going? Greece is a

:27:29. > :27:34.country that is really not in the best shape as a European country to

:27:35. > :27:35.be taking on this huge problem? If you have seen improvements over the

:27:36. > :27:51.last year or a sense of that? My colleagues in Unicef Greece have

:27:52. > :27:54.seen progress in improving some of the conditions in some places. I

:27:55. > :28:00.think most people would agree that there are more problems with the

:28:01. > :28:07.operation in making sure that there is an equal standard across the

:28:08. > :28:11.country for refugees and migrants. I do agree but I am meaning about the

:28:12. > :28:19.funding available for them. They believed that they were, the Greeks

:28:20. > :28:26.were saying we have not got money. There seems to be a barrier between

:28:27. > :28:33.them. I don't have the information about that. In general, it is not

:28:34. > :28:38.surprising there would be a disconnect, potentially, between

:28:39. > :28:43.funding streams. Also a policy framework that is in many ways

:28:44. > :28:54.against the cancer protection we are asking for. We have talked about the

:28:55. > :29:01.flawed EU- Turkey deal. And redistribution process of asylum

:29:02. > :29:05.seekers overall. A target of 160,000 to be redistributed from Greece and

:29:06. > :29:10.other places they were concentrated. Talking about adults primarily, but

:29:11. > :29:18.of course some children. Only 5% of the target had been met at you end

:29:19. > :29:24.of last year. And children, and action plan for unaccompanied

:29:25. > :29:30.children that technically inspired in 2014. Never been renewed or

:29:31. > :29:34.updated. Really is no overarching policy framework that guides the EU

:29:35. > :29:39.overall. Or potentially its member states in terms of where they direct

:29:40. > :29:42.their assistance. I wouldn't be surprised to see this kind of

:29:43. > :29:47.disconnect. That would also go along with some of the political

:29:48. > :29:50.declarations we saw coming out of Malta in January which spoke about

:29:51. > :29:56.migration control and had little attention paid to protection of

:29:57. > :30:03.unaccompanied children and other vulnerable refugee populations and

:30:04. > :30:07.the like. On that slightly gloomy note, that brings it to a close.

:30:08. > :31:14.Thank you both very much indeed for the evidence here today.

:31:15. > :31:15.We are joins by Seamus Morse and Michael