:00:23. > :00:27.Hello and welcome to the programme. Just one week after violence
:00:27. > :00:32.erupted on the streets of East Belfast, the Irish President
:00:32. > :00:42.visited the area today. She said the trouble had broken heart, but
:00:42. > :00:44.
:00:44. > :00:49.could not break the local community. We will be discussing the
:00:49. > :00:59.repercussions of the violence were political and church leaders later.
:00:59. > :00:59.
:00:59. > :01:04.But first, a look at precisely what happened and why.
:01:04. > :01:09.And aerial view of some of the worst rioting in East Belfast in
:01:09. > :01:13.many years. These exclusive pictures not seen until now were
:01:13. > :01:20.taken from a police helicopter as the violence unfolded. But exactly
:01:20. > :01:23.what happened and how did this mayhem start? We have pieced
:01:24. > :01:28.together a detailed breakdown of two consecutive nights of trouble
:01:28. > :01:38.to understand what went on on the streets of Belfast just over a week
:01:38. > :01:47.
:01:47. > :01:55.ago. East Belfast is predominantly Unionist, but also home to Short
:01:55. > :02:00.Strand. There is an interface. The first sign of violence came at 6
:02:00. > :02:05.o'clock when a republican received a phone call from a Republican
:02:05. > :02:12.intermediary warning tensions were high. UVF men were being brought
:02:12. > :02:18.into the area and when gathering at local bars. Around 8:45pm, groups
:02:18. > :02:24.of UVF men appeared from here. They converged on this road and were
:02:24. > :02:32.dressed in black, wearing gloves and masks. They were ready to
:02:32. > :02:42.attack. A police patrol spotted 8,100 strong crowd and called for
:02:42. > :02:47.
:02:47. > :02:56.back-up. There was some significant disorder. The first attacks were
:02:56. > :03:05.launched at these homes. At exactly the same time, another group
:03:05. > :03:12.attacked the area from a different street. Police were able to bring
:03:12. > :03:22.some of the trouble under control by 10 o'clock, but it escalated in
:03:22. > :03:26.
:03:26. > :03:34.other areas. Homes in this pub has done area were attacked. There were
:03:34. > :03:43.500 people on each side of the divide. For the next 3.5 hours, the
:03:43. > :03:49.Briot raged. Five shots were fired from the loyalist side, some
:03:49. > :03:55.ricochet in of police Land Rovers. After midnight fire also came from
:03:55. > :04:00.Short Strand. A man was shot on the loyalist side and a short time
:04:00. > :04:06.later a 16-year-old was hit as well. But police managed to hold the line
:04:06. > :04:13.and the crowd dispersed at 2:30am. One of the worst nights of rioting
:04:13. > :04:21.in recent years had ended. The next day, police were asked to clear-up
:04:21. > :04:26.some of the confusion. They could not have been more categorical. The
:04:26. > :04:33.UVF started an orchestrated the violence. The police say they did a
:04:33. > :04:40.see it coming. Tensions were high in that area and we had extra
:04:40. > :04:50.patrols, but we did not know it was coming to this scale. The first we
:04:50. > :04:53.
:04:53. > :05:00.knew of it was mast and bluffed men -- men up wearing masks and gloves
:05:00. > :05:07.gathering on the street corner. This man says they used to be
:05:07. > :05:17.communication with Belfast UVF, but it has broken down. East Belfast
:05:17. > :05:23.
:05:23. > :05:29.was exemplary in terms of to make a name for themselves.
:05:29. > :05:34.there is evidence the UVF has been making their presence felt on the
:05:34. > :05:40.streets of east Belfast. We have had murals painted sending out a
:05:41. > :05:46.war message. There are a number of the UVF flags been displayed, and
:05:46. > :05:52.you have the leader of that organisation who sees himself as a
:05:52. > :05:57.law unto themselves. The second night of disorder, the UVF stepped
:05:57. > :06:05.back and watched as local youth carried on the violence they had
:06:05. > :06:09.started. It got beyond the reach and control of those who were
:06:09. > :06:16.potentially organising that. It was also clear there was no visible
:06:16. > :06:22.sign that night of more mature heads seeking to constrain the
:06:22. > :06:30.situation. I think the beginning of this was organised. After that it
:06:30. > :06:37.took a life of its own. violence led to republicans firing
:06:37. > :06:43.shots and brought rioters onto the streets in the middle of the margin
:06:43. > :06:50.season. The repercussions were potentially huge. Reluctant to
:06:50. > :06:57.leave the stage, reinforcements were bussed into Short Strand to
:06:57. > :07:07.defend the area by hand. Republicans had to go into Short
:07:07. > :07:14.
:07:14. > :07:22.Strand to shore up the area. They wanted to give reassurance. People
:07:22. > :07:32.would use a situation like that as a pretext to enter the area. The
:07:32. > :07:33.
:07:33. > :07:42.genie is out of the bottle. aerial footage has revealed crowds
:07:42. > :07:50.making petrol bombs. At one point let -- loyalists end a laser at the
:07:50. > :07:53.helicopter. They also climbed on rooftops to throw their missiles.
:07:53. > :07:59.On the second night of trouble, a press photographer was injured when
:07:59. > :08:05.shots were fired. Police say they came from dissidents. The situation
:08:05. > :08:14.was one of chaos. He at the centre for community mediation in north
:08:14. > :08:24.Belfast, of representatives of what was the IRA and what is the UPA,
:08:24. > :08:30.
:08:30. > :08:38.and Red Hand Commando net. -- what is the UVF. I said, or we are where
:08:38. > :08:48.we are. We do we go from here? deal was done to end the violence.
:08:48. > :08:54.
:08:54. > :09:00.People from both sides had work to restore calm. But why did it all
:09:00. > :09:10.start? Some loyalists feel that the peace process has passed them by.
:09:10. > :09:15.
:09:15. > :09:21.There were riots eight months ago because there is believed that
:09:21. > :09:31.historical crime team is one-sided. -- that the historical crime team
:09:31. > :09:33.
:09:33. > :09:38.is one-sided. There are genuine grievances out there. They need to
:09:38. > :09:43.be addressed. The with the tried to talk to the leader of the UVF in
:09:43. > :09:51.Belfast, but he did not want to talk to us. But they have been
:09:51. > :09:55.talking recently to this local clergyman. Has the UVF said to you
:09:55. > :10:01.why it has happened? It happened because they felt that their
:10:02. > :10:11.community is continually under attack. Some solutions could be
:10:12. > :10:15.
:10:15. > :10:20.resolved. Unfortunately, they were not. Tensions at the interface had
:10:20. > :10:26.estimated at the weekend before the rioting. But whatever the exact
:10:26. > :10:31.reason, it East Belfast UVF decided to attack the Short Strand last
:10:31. > :10:40.week, and that was with beat backing of the UVF Shankill Road
:10:40. > :10:47.command. It is a coming together of the UVF in East Belfast and
:10:47. > :10:54.Shankill Road. In fact, last Tuesday, the East Belfast UVF
:10:55. > :11:01.leader was joined by the overall leader of the UVF, its so called
:11:01. > :11:08.Brigadier. But his appearance raises further questions about the
:11:08. > :11:15.UVF commitment to peace. It 2007, they have released a statement. The
:11:15. > :11:20.brigade staff talked about moving into a non military role.
:11:20. > :11:30.Everything that has happened in East Belfast speaks and axe in
:11:30. > :11:34.
:11:34. > :11:38.But the violence may have suited the leadership. It was said that
:11:38. > :11:41.there may be some thinking within the UVF, if we caused some noise,
:11:42. > :11:46.if we caused a bit of violence, if we show we are still out there,
:11:46. > :11:55.some of these things will back off, the Supergrass trial will back off,
:11:55. > :11:58.that is what you get if you come after us. The UVF's politically --
:11:58. > :12:02.volatility has been a matter of concern. We have learned that pipe
:12:02. > :12:07.bomb attacks on two homes in republican west Belfast last
:12:07. > :12:17.November have also been blamed on a UVF unit. Leading Republicans have
:12:17. > :12:20.tackled the leadership about this. We gave them the benefit of the
:12:20. > :12:28.doubt and hope they will raise their mark and deal with those
:12:28. > :12:31.situations. They need to deal with it as soon as possible. The UVF's
:12:31. > :12:36.actions are a real concern for the Stormont executive to. Last
:12:36. > :12:40.Thursday, Peter Robinson met a UVF delegation including the East
:12:40. > :12:43.Belfast commander. The First Minister said last week's violence
:12:43. > :12:47.has bomb-maker -- damaged Northern Ireland's reputation
:12:47. > :12:51.internationally. His senior civil servant has been appointed to
:12:51. > :12:56.report back on the issues behind it. And the police, often in the middle
:12:56. > :13:02.of committee division, are also stressing the need for a local
:13:02. > :13:06.solution at the Short Strand interface itself. Policing the
:13:06. > :13:10.symptoms is a short-term fix, they have got to be a longer term,
:13:10. > :13:15.sustainable relationship between these communities. How we do that
:13:15. > :13:20.is principally with communities being supported by other agencies
:13:21. > :13:23.but it is in communities's hands as well. Switching the violence on is
:13:23. > :13:29.always easier than switching it off and with a precedent having been
:13:29. > :13:36.set last week, there is now fear of more trouble and other interfaces
:13:36. > :13:40.throughout the marching season. Sustained rioting for two nights,
:13:40. > :13:43.gunmen back on the streets, houses wrecked, thousands of pounds worth
:13:43. > :13:50.of damage caused and the police admit there was a gap in their
:13:50. > :13:53.intelligence -- intelligence. Mr Ford, they may have been a failure
:13:53. > :13:59.of police intelligence last week but there is no doubt on the police
:13:59. > :14:03.is part that the UVF was responsible for turning the tap on.
:14:03. > :14:09.Why can the authorities go into East Belfast and arrest the people
:14:09. > :14:12.responsible before they do it again? That is a job for the police,
:14:12. > :14:16.not the Department of Justice. The police have got to work with
:14:16. > :14:20.evidence and intelligence which enables them to take action. There
:14:20. > :14:24.was a build-up of tension with flag flying before we got to the stage.
:14:24. > :14:29.They have got to be questions as to how the agencies as a whole address
:14:29. > :14:34.problems like that. I'm concerned there was this intelligence gap?
:14:34. > :14:38.All this was happening. With the benefit of hindsight, we know what
:14:38. > :14:47.it led to. They say they did not expect 100 men to come up wearing
:14:47. > :14:49.masks and surgical gloves and do to get the intelligence to deal
:14:49. > :14:52.with this in advance. We have got to make sure the police have the
:14:52. > :14:58.best possible intelligence and one of the key is the community
:14:58. > :15:02.contacts they depend upon. depend on public confidence for
:15:02. > :15:06.police to work properly. Policing did not get to grips with what
:15:06. > :15:10.happened on Monday and Tuesday of last week. The individuals
:15:10. > :15:15.responsible, far from being arrested and held to account, some
:15:15. > :15:21.of them were correct -- invited to Stormont Castle to meet senior
:15:21. > :15:25.politicians. I recognise that in the past people have been persuaded
:15:25. > :15:29.away from violence because of cheerleaders or committee leaders.
:15:29. > :15:36.I think that is very different from people in Parliament. -- church
:15:36. > :15:40.leaders or community leaders. I think the real issues that need to
:15:40. > :15:46.be addressed are around committee confidence. There are issues around
:15:46. > :15:49.robust policing. I am going to take an awful lot of convincing that
:15:49. > :15:54.senior politicians speaking to those implementing violence is the
:15:54. > :15:59.way to go forward. Did those senior politicians who met with those UVF
:15:59. > :16:03.leaders from east Belfast make a miscalculation in your view?
:16:03. > :16:06.don't know who was at the meeting, I was no part of it. I took part in
:16:06. > :16:10.a more constructive meeting this afternoon looking at how we deal
:16:10. > :16:15.with difficulties around interface in arrears and other hard to reach
:16:15. > :16:19.areas, looking at constructive ways around engagement. That is what I
:16:19. > :16:22.think government should be doing. You are saying you are
:16:22. > :16:26.uncomfortable about it, the First Minister was at the meeting, it
:16:26. > :16:30.took place at Stormont Castle, which is the heart of Northern
:16:30. > :16:37.Ireland government. I took part in other things which are my
:16:37. > :16:41.responsibility to look at community safety issues last week to see how
:16:41. > :16:48.we address those community safety issues. Partially by physical
:16:48. > :16:51.structures but very much by committee action. The Minister of
:16:51. > :16:58.Justice has responsibility to support the justice agencies,
:16:58. > :17:02.particularly the police and see... Other people have got to take on
:17:02. > :17:09.their responsibilities because a large amount of the committee
:17:09. > :17:15.Richens issue is down to the First Minister. We do not have the IMC to
:17:15. > :17:20.monitor ceasefires. What is the status of the ceasefire? You heard
:17:20. > :17:26.what Allister thinly said. The firm belief that it was the East Belfast
:17:26. > :17:30.UDF started that off and the message has got to be clear. The
:17:30. > :17:34.message has got to be clear, the UVF claimed they were disbanding,
:17:34. > :17:38.the UVF has got to go away. There is role for individuals in
:17:38. > :17:44.community life, if they want to take part in a democratic process.
:17:44. > :17:48.There is no role for opposition's lack the UVF. At that you for
:17:48. > :17:58.coming to join us. What has it been like on the frontline of the
:17:58. > :18:01.
:18:01. > :18:11.trouble? Mandy Macaulay has been talking to... She has been hearing
:18:11. > :18:25.
:18:25. > :18:28.the human cost from people on both For years, residents on but the
:18:28. > :18:32.size of the East Belfast interface have lived with the threat of
:18:32. > :18:35.violence but days ago one woman, a Catholic resident of the Short
:18:35. > :18:40.Strand, too frightened to be identified, looked out of her
:18:40. > :18:48.window and was frozen with fear, horrified by what she saw. I looked
:18:48. > :18:54.out of the window and got Taoiseach of my life. What did you see?
:18:54. > :19:04.hundreds of men, Crone, older men, with balaclavas on, black
:19:04. > :19:04.
:19:04. > :19:12.balaclavas, and black coats, and wearing surgical gloves. I actually
:19:12. > :19:17.crawled down the stairs to get to the phone to phone the police. I
:19:17. > :19:27.thought I was going to be killed. I thought I was going to be killed
:19:27. > :19:33.
:19:33. > :19:42.for. And then, minutes later, I was Justin at a panic. It was just
:19:42. > :19:47.horrendous. -- just in utter panic. She was not the only one who was
:19:47. > :19:53.terrified. Earlier, this woman's children were playing outside the
:19:54. > :19:58.House when missiles started exploding around them. I'd just
:19:58. > :20:02.grab them up. I did not realise what was going on. They saw me
:20:02. > :20:08.panicking and then they were squealing. The older two were very
:20:08. > :20:12.nervous. They have not been out because they are afraid. Across the
:20:12. > :20:16.peace line, Protestant residents say last week's violence was a
:20:16. > :20:20.response to months of attacks on the committee by young nationalists,
:20:20. > :20:24.a tax which they claim have been ignored by police. One woman says
:20:24. > :20:31.her son who is in a wheelchair and a disabled friend were attacked on
:20:31. > :20:36.the other side of the divide on the Sunday before trouble broke out.
:20:36. > :20:40.There is not a week goes by, there are threats, there are metal bars,
:20:40. > :20:45.there are broken bottles, he has never been able to use his garden,
:20:45. > :20:49.and on Sunday there was the final straw. Him and his friend, he's in
:20:49. > :20:54.a wheelchair, his friend came up for a nice weekend in Belfast, and
:20:54. > :20:58.was walking to try to get into their home and they were hit with
:20:59. > :21:03.bricks. There is not a week has gone by when we have not phone the
:21:03. > :21:07.police and they are not taking any heed. But there are those who are
:21:07. > :21:11.convinced that the UVF has taken advantage of this discontent to
:21:11. > :21:15.stir up trouble for its own against. One of those believes it is his
:21:15. > :21:18.Christian duty to speak out about the orchestration of last week's
:21:18. > :21:23.violence who is a Church of Ireland minister who has worked in East
:21:23. > :21:27.Belfast for more than a decade. They did not physically track
:21:27. > :21:33.hundreds of men and women and young people onto the streets, but they
:21:33. > :21:39.created an environment that they knew, and everybody else knew,
:21:39. > :21:47.would result in hundreds of people going on to the streets. On the
:21:47. > :21:54.back of that, they attempted to be seen as part of the answer, a big
:21:54. > :21:59.part of the answer to the problem. And solving the problem. He is not
:21:59. > :22:05.alone in that belief. In the loyalist heartland, the UVF has a
:22:05. > :22:09.strong presence. Pastor Jack McKee is based there. He says it is now
:22:09. > :22:14.in the financial and political interests of some paramilitaries to
:22:14. > :22:22.open at sectarian divisions. There are people who were content to
:22:22. > :22:27.stare at tensions so that they will commend as the cavalry in order to
:22:27. > :22:31.bring a solution to the issue and be seen as the good guys. My
:22:31. > :22:37.interpretation of what happened in East Belfast were that there were
:22:37. > :22:41.those who were hell-bent on putting on a show. The presence of
:22:41. > :22:46.organised groups of adults working together in a disciplined fashion
:22:46. > :22:52.shows how orchestrated the arts -- orchestrated the violence was. You
:22:52. > :22:55.are saying on some level paramilitaries brought hundreds of
:22:55. > :23:00.young men on to the streets to terrorise people so that they could
:23:00. > :23:06.then be seen to be solving the problem? The paramilitaries
:23:06. > :23:12.certainly had a hand in creating the problem and encouraging the
:23:12. > :23:16.situation. Three days later, discussions have taken place, talks
:23:16. > :23:20.have happened, and the streets are clear tonight. There is nobody out
:23:20. > :23:28.on the streets of east Belfast this evening. Why couldn't those talks
:23:28. > :23:35.have happened a week ago? Or a fortnight ago? In order to prevent
:23:35. > :23:38.the situation. And yet loyalist community workers would say, we
:23:38. > :23:43.have been in meeting after meeting in recent days to try and solve
:23:43. > :23:46.this problem. I would have a question for them and it would go
:23:46. > :23:52.something like this, why didn't you attempt to solve this problem
:23:52. > :23:56.before it happened? He is not saying they were not genuine
:23:56. > :24:02.grievances but rather that there was a deliberate decision by
:24:02. > :24:06.paramilitaries to escalate the situation. A young man we were
:24:06. > :24:15.encouraging to come away from the riots, not to stay there any longer,
:24:15. > :24:19.and he whispered to myself and to another person, "I can't go here. I
:24:19. > :24:28.have got to stay. I will be in trouble, I can't leave, I have got
:24:28. > :24:33.to stay". Obviously, he was afraid. He was afraid to leave and felt he
:24:33. > :24:37.had to stay there. This Presbyterian minister was also on
:24:37. > :24:42.the streets on Tuesday night when adult men were replaced by
:24:42. > :24:46.teenagers on the front line. These are young people living in inner
:24:46. > :24:50.East Belfast who rightly or wrongly believe they are defending their
:24:50. > :24:53.location. They are young people who have become engaged in all the
:24:53. > :24:58.activities of these last couple of nights, brick throwing and chanting
:24:58. > :25:01.and all manner of things. Young people like to be in at the heart
:25:01. > :25:06.of everything. They like to say they have been there and some of
:25:06. > :25:11.them will have been bruised, battered or even shop are wearing
:25:11. > :25:16.those badges as on it. I have been on the front line, I have been
:25:16. > :25:20.engaged, without thinking what they have been doing. One reason why the
:25:20. > :25:24.UVF may have decided to escalate the violence is money. Some
:25:24. > :25:28.committee workers have told us that what they believe they UVF wants is
:25:28. > :25:33.a greater share of government funding, in particular, another �4
:25:33. > :25:36.million contested space programme. Part of this money remains to be
:25:36. > :25:41.distributed by the Office of the Deputy First Ministers and other
:25:41. > :25:45.bodies. Spotlight has been told that in last week's meeting between
:25:45. > :25:49.loyalists and Peter Robinson, money was not discussed, but elements of
:25:49. > :25:52.the voluntary sector remain deeply worried. Those we have spoken to
:25:52. > :25:56.fear that some of the money earmarked for the loyalist
:25:56. > :26:01.communities will end up in the hands of paramilitaries already
:26:01. > :26:04.trying to muscle in on government funding and jobs. They say that
:26:04. > :26:07.across Northern Ireland, paramilitaries are attempting to
:26:07. > :26:11.seize control of The areas in order to squeeze up community
:26:11. > :26:16.organisations who have been at the coalface of some of the most
:26:16. > :26:19.deprived loyalist areas for decades. Some have been intimidated. They
:26:19. > :26:26.say it would put themselves and their colleagues in danger if they
:26:26. > :26:30.appeared on camera. Solving the problem, they are putting
:26:30. > :26:34.themselves as the ones who are worthy of public funding and public
:26:34. > :26:41.support. Public funding is just trying up at the moment and public
:26:42. > :26:48.funding, which plots of organisations, not necessarily
:26:48. > :26:55.connected to any church, very good organisations, are being run by
:26:55. > :27:05.ordinary working-class women and men in East Belfast, will not have
:27:05. > :27:07.
:27:07. > :27:15.access to is that world has access In March the Executive set out
:27:15. > :27:22.plans to tackle poverty with funding of �80 million. They are
:27:22. > :27:31.looking for what they feel are their just rewards and a slice of
:27:31. > :27:37.whatever funding is available from government. There is �80 million
:27:37. > :27:42.that should be divided between Unionist and nationalist
:27:42. > :27:49.communities. There are those who want to make sure they get their
:27:49. > :27:59.share of that particular pie. man believes that decisions being
:27:59. > :28:06.
:28:06. > :28:11.made by government should be about protecting the peace process.
:28:11. > :28:21.should want the peace process to work, at any price. And what is
:28:21. > :28:22.
:28:22. > :28:29.that price? If we can buy off pad - - paramilitaries. If that can be
:28:29. > :28:34.done, then the groups can be drawn into the centre. Whatever it costs
:28:34. > :28:43.to keep them there, is what it will cost. The reality is it is not
:28:43. > :28:47.working. Within local communities, paramilitaries still control those
:28:47. > :28:55.communities. Back in East Belfast, those on the peace line are still
:28:55. > :29:00.coming to terms with the events of last week. We have this trouble
:29:00. > :29:06.every couple of months. Those men who came out the other night, they
:29:06. > :29:13.protected the ones in the area, children are getting involved now.
:29:13. > :29:20.The we are just surviving at the moment. We are not living, we are
:29:20. > :29:26.existing. -- we are just surviving at the moment. We just sit there.
:29:26. > :29:33.You cannot relax. You cannot even read the paper because you have no
:29:33. > :29:43.concentration. We have no life at the minute, no life what the
:29:43. > :29:48.
:29:48. > :29:58.weather. Joining me now in the studio Sammy Douglas, Mr Kelly and
:29:58. > :29:59.
:29:59. > :30:09.Drove run Gibson and restaurant McCrea. -- Reverend Gibson and
:30:09. > :30:09.
:30:09. > :30:14.reverent McCrea. Deer it except the claim in that film that the
:30:14. > :30:19.violence was switched on by the UVF in Belfast on Monday? I do not.
:30:19. > :30:28.There has been a build up over many months of this more attacks. They
:30:28. > :30:38.have been managed for years. Someone took their eye off the ball
:30:38. > :30:48.and nothing justified what happened on Monday. So at 100 men -- so, 100
:30:48. > :30:57.
:30:57. > :31:05.men wearing masks and rioting. Sadly, everyone took their eye off
:31:05. > :31:11.the ball. Is there a much simpler explanation than the one you put
:31:11. > :31:17.forward? Obviously there was a leader. It did not happen in a
:31:17. > :31:23.vacuum. It is clear that the UVF and the paramilitaries were in the
:31:23. > :31:29.middle of the rioting that was taking place. Young people were
:31:29. > :31:34.afraid to come away from the riots. Some did, but others were afraid to
:31:34. > :31:39.be removed by youth workers who went down to try and encourage
:31:39. > :31:44.children away from the scene. you are clear that the tap was
:31:44. > :31:54.turned on and then off, in both cases by UVF leaders in East
:31:54. > :31:55.
:31:55. > :32:00.Belfast? I am clear about ordinary people in East Belfast who are
:32:00. > :32:10.hesitant to speak out against the paramilitary world. The taxi man
:32:10. > :32:14.who drove me here this evening asked what might take on it was? He
:32:14. > :32:19.said that he would not want those people coming to his door. Earlier
:32:19. > :32:24.this evening, a man who works and the communities said to me, David,
:32:24. > :32:29.watch yourself. They will not like what you are saying. So what do you
:32:29. > :32:37.say to Mervyn Gibson about his understanding of the situation? Do
:32:37. > :32:42.you think he is ignoring the elephant in the brain? Do you think
:32:42. > :32:47.the paramilitaries want to move into areas like East Belfast to
:32:47. > :32:56.access of funding? Do you say he is not accepting it, or he is not
:32:56. > :33:06.aware of it? I am not disagreeing with Mervyn that there was not a
:33:06. > :33:10.
:33:10. > :33:14.build up to miss -- this. What I am saying is East Belfast has a strong
:33:15. > :33:19.paramilitary Belfast. The majority of people, certainly in East
:33:19. > :33:29.Belfast and the people I connect with on a day-to-day basis do not
:33:29. > :33:30.
:33:30. > :33:36.want to be hold their community in fear. Who has the power to take
:33:36. > :33:42.kids out on the streets like that for their own ends? I was at a
:33:42. > :33:47.community meeting and it was said that it is all about funding.
:33:47. > :33:53.you saying you don't hear that at all? I am not. I do hear people say
:33:53. > :34:03.that. All I can do is talk to the local people and see what they
:34:03. > :34:04.
:34:04. > :34:11.believe. It depends on who you listen to. Paramilitaries are part
:34:11. > :34:16.of our communities. Same with Republican key amenities. Does that
:34:16. > :34:22.mean assisting them to access public funds to become community
:34:22. > :34:32.workers, what does it mean standing up and saying, go away. You're part
:34:32. > :34:42.of the problem and not the solution. I don't see it as them and us.
:34:42. > :34:44.
:34:44. > :34:54.Paramilitaries are part of the community. Well, paramilitary
:34:54. > :35:02.
:35:02. > :35:06.backgrounds are different from paramilitary presence. If I saw
:35:06. > :35:12.anyone trying to muscle in, I would be the first one to cry out against
:35:12. > :35:16.it. There is a new ones between the ministers regarding their take on
:35:16. > :35:26.what is happening. Is there anything positive about what is
:35:26. > :35:33.going on in East Belfast? Then need to go away and they need the help.
:35:33. > :35:42.I was at the meeting at Stormont Castle. The paramilitaries said
:35:42. > :35:52.they were under pressure from local communities, and the PSNI will tell
:35:52. > :35:52.
:35:52. > :35:57.you there have been attacks on both communities. There has been a
:35:57. > :36:03.build-up to this over the past few months. But at those meetings it
:36:03. > :36:10.was clear as a bell. They said, it is not about money. They said it
:36:10. > :36:18.was about safety. What were they promise that the meeting to turn
:36:18. > :36:22.the violence off? We said we would speak to the police and other
:36:22. > :36:27.agencies to ensure that people's houses would be fixed up. The PSNI
:36:27. > :36:30.would have a presence on the ground and we would work together to
:36:30. > :36:37.ensure that violence didn't happen. They is an irony in that. Those
:36:37. > :36:41.people who wanted safety and were promised safety at that meeting
:36:41. > :36:46.were responsible, at least in a fairly significant way, for the
:36:46. > :36:51.violence that happened on Monday and Tuesday night. Their people's
:36:51. > :37:01.on the ground were throwing fireworks, petrol bombs and firing
:37:01. > :37:05.
:37:05. > :37:12.guns. The UVF were involved. Houses on both sides were attacked and
:37:12. > :37:21.there was violence from both sides. The balance out of control. As
:37:21. > :37:26.Shaun Murray said, none of us envisaged what happened. It took us
:37:26. > :37:32.all by shock, to be honest. heard from Shaun Murray in that
:37:32. > :37:36.film saying that republicans were quick to bring guns out as well. He
:37:37. > :37:43.spoke about a vacuum. If the situation goes unchecked there will
:37:43. > :37:52.be a vacuum and the danger is it will be filled by dissident
:37:52. > :38:02.republicans. How concerned a you about that? On the one hand they
:38:02. > :38:07.
:38:07. > :38:12.are saying the reasons behind this riot is money. There have been
:38:12. > :38:22.attacks on both sides leading up to with though. There has been a
:38:22. > :38:34.
:38:34. > :38:38.change in East Belfast. The palate news 3 -- the pan and -- the
:38:38. > :38:48.paramilitary murals were taken away and the UVF have started putting
:38:48. > :38:59.
:38:59. > :39:07.them back up again. They have had an influence, particularly in the
:39:07. > :39:17.marching season. Do you think it is about a group of paramilitary
:39:17. > :39:19.
:39:19. > :39:29.leaders wanting at cut off the money -- a cut of the money? I'd do
:39:29. > :39:39.not think they should get any money. -- I do not think they should get
:39:39. > :39:42.
:39:43. > :39:50.any money. I it would be very worried, and let me make this clear,
:39:50. > :39:57.at the worst possible times I have argued there should be talks with
:39:58. > :40:04.people, but it the talk instalment is to give money to UVF, it is not
:40:04. > :40:12.the way to go. Are you concerned that too many people are too quick
:40:12. > :40:22.to understand and be empathetic with the people who rioted last
:40:22. > :40:32.week? I want the paramilitary world to move away from their past.
:40:32. > :40:36.
:40:36. > :40:40.say they won that as well. -- they want that as well. Well, they will
:40:40. > :40:47.not move away from their past if they hold their communities in fear.
:40:48. > :40:55.It will not win the admiration and respect of the local community.
:40:55. > :41:05.They put up flags, murals. Do you think paramilitary leaders are
:41:05. > :41:09.Bernie Friday voices -- bona fide voices for the communities they
:41:09. > :41:16.claim to represent? Not if they hold their communities in fear. If
:41:16. > :41:22.they are going to be community workers, do exactly that. Stop
:41:22. > :41:30.holding people in fear. You cannot have both. You cannot be a
:41:30. > :41:40.paramilitary and a community representative. People need to
:41:40. > :41:41.